Balancing Acid/Electricity to Cold/Fire

[mediocresurgeon]

THE PROBLEM:
Cold and Fire spells dominate the arcane caster arsenal. Acid and Electricity spells should have acceptable alternatives in order to promote arcane caster diversity at endgame.


COLD/FIRE:
Wall of Fire, Cone of Cold, and Polar Ray are staples of arcane casters everywhere, with many also taking Meteor Swarm, Incendiary Cloud, and/or Delayed Blast Fireball. Very few creatures are immune to both Cold and Fire, making arcane casters who specialize in Cold/Fire extremely versatile. The two most powerful damage spells available to a caster (Wall of Fire and Polar Ray) both fall under this category, with nothing comparable coming from the Acid/Electricity lines. The benchmark for what a damaging spell does is set by Wall of Fire.

Wall of Fire:
Wall of Fire does 2d6+20 base damage at level cap, affects an area (AoE), deals damage over time (DoT), and is extraordinarily low level (level 4, out of 9 possible spell levels). It allows no saving throw, and deals double damage to cold creatures and undead (triple to mummies and cold-based undead). It has been nerfed many times over the years (less damage, cannot purchase scrolls, smaller duration, enemies are only affected by the last-cast Wall in the area) but is largely considered the most effective spell an arcane caster can take.

ACID:
There are some Acid spells which mimic Wall of Fire, but are not nearly as effective. These Acid spells should either (a) be improved to provide an effective alternative to Wall of Fire or (b) new Acid spells should be added to make acid specialization more attractive.

Cloudkill:
Cloudkill does 2d6+20 base damage at level cap, affects and area (AoE), and deals damage over time (DoT). It grants a 20% concealment bonus to allies in the area, and it is a level higher that Wall of Fire. It can deal constitution damage to creatures in its area, but this is a lot less relevant than it was pre-Mod 9 (and nearly nonfunctional on Epic). Most important enemies (red named, undead, constructs, raid bosses) are just flat-out immune to Cloudkill, which means that once you really need Cloudkill effects you don't have them. Normally this is used for a 20% concealment bonus when fighting stationary raid bosses, since that's about all it is really good for. This use of Cloudkill is not affected by spec'ing into Acid/Electricity.

Acid Fog:
Acid Fog does 2d6 base damage at level cap (less than either Cloudkill or Wall of Fire), affects and area (AoE), deals damage over time (DoT). It is supposed to grant a 20% concealment bonus to allies in the area, but this has been nonfunctional for nearly a year and has yet to be mentioned as a Known Issue by the Devs. It is also supposed to slow enemies in its area (Red/Purple named are immune, of course) but this also seems to be broken like all other Slow effects (Solid Fog, Magma Surge, etc) when used on monsters (also not a Known Issue). This is a higher level spell than both Cloudkill and Wall of Fire. The single advantage of Acid Fog is that its damage affects all enemies, unlike Cloudkill. Acid Fog remains as the main draw for players to specialize in Acid/Lightning, though it is inferior in nearly every way to its competitors.

ELECTRICITY:
Back when the level cap was 16, there was a fair balance to spec'ing Acid/Electricity in addition to Cold/Fire. We did not have Wail of the Banshee yet, so many players used Ball Lightning to clear dungeons (especially when rushing through lower-level content). Not many monsters are immune/resistant to Electricity, Ball Lighting had a good target area (large-radius sphere), great range (maximum allowed for spells), quick casting time (unlike Cone of Cold), and dealt nearly max damage (15d6 and worked with a standard +50% Potency 6 weapon). Acid Fog also worked correctly. Now that we have Wail of the Banshee to clear trash (AoE insta-death, less mana per cast than Ball Lighting) there's not much point.

Chain Lighting might have provided an alternative to Delayed Blast Fireball, except that it rarely lands on enemies due to targeting failure (it functions like individual rays, except they don't lead their target like enemy archers do). Like Delayed Blast Fireball, Chain Lighting would not be worth spec'ing for on its own--people would consider taking it only if there were already acid/lightning spec'd.

Obviously, the Devs need to add an exciting electricity spell that is functional at endgame! There is a huge vacuum in this regard.


THE SOLUTION:
-Increase the damage of Acid Fog to 2d6+20 base like its lower-level counterparts. Give back 20% concealment to Acid Fog, and fix its slow effect. Acid Fog is higher level than both Cloudkill and Wall of Fire and its effectiveness must be increased proportionally.
-Add the DDO equivalent of the following spell to make high-level play with electrical spells relivant (and provide a use for the neglected Calitome's Sash (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Lamannia/CalitomesSash.jpg)):


LIGHTNING RING
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 8
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Personal
Effect: Ring of electricity
Duration: 1 round/2 levels
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

The ring of electricity moves with you and does not interfere with your spellcasting or attacks, or with others attacking you. As long as the lightning ring is in effect, you gain resistance to electricity 20. At the beginning of your turn each round, adjacent creatures take 10d6 points of electricity damage, or half that with a successful Reflex save.
In addition, each round as a free action at the beginning of your turn, you can direct two lightning bolts that deal 5d6 points of electricity damage each, exactly as the lightning bolt spell (caster level 5th), in any directions you choose. Each bolt can be aimed separately. A creature struck by one of these bolts can make a Reflex save for half damage. The DC for this save is calculated for an 8th-level spell, even though the bolts mimic a 3rd-level spell.

To make this useful in DDO, it should be changed slightly:
The AoE electricity damage should extend a small distance away from the caster, similar to the negative energy aura around an Arcane Skeleton. (A caster in melee range at endgame is a dead caster.)
Two 5d6 lightning bolts as a free action should instead be a single 10d6 lightning bolt every 2 seconds, automatically fired at the closest enemy (and perhaps passing through it to hit enemies lined up behind it).
Electricity Resistance 20 should be changed to Electricity Resistance 30 or Exceptional Electricity Resistance 10.
Use typical duration for short-term buffs (like Haste, Displacement, Fire Shield, etc).

[spyderwolf]

/shrug. im indifferent to these kinda things. if they make acid/light better cool, but people will still stay cold/fire specced for the most part since theres very little reason not too even if acid lightnign was better.

[Tomalon]

I think they should just change wall of fire to wall of element and let us pick from a drop down list what element we want the wall to be. keep everything else the same for the spell.

[mediocresurgeon]

I think they should just change wall of fire to wall of element and let us pick from a drop down list what element we want the wall to be. keep everything else the same for the spell.

In PnP, you could take a feat (Energy Substitution) and substitute a different energy type (usually sonic, if DM allowed it) for a specific spell. I don't think that's a very appropriate choice for DDO, though, since sorcerers are already very cramped for feats.

[Angelus_dead]

-Increase the damage of Acid Fog to 2d6+20 base like its lower-level counterparts.
Your approach is to boost Acid/Electric by providing it with spells of similar effectiveness to Wall of Fire.

That is a misprioritized path. Consider what would happen if DDO mages were somehow restricted to fire spells only, and the other elements went away: There would still be a serious imbalance between Wall of Fire and all the rest, particularly DBF and Meteor Swarm. Firewall is just miles ahead of the other spells in DPM, while not being too far behind in DPS, reach, or reaction.

The good way to fix spells is to first focus on bringing Wall of Fire more in line with the others. That won't be an easy task, but it can be done with some combination of nerfs to firewall and buffs to other spells (especially something like reducing their mana cost to raise DPM). Once balance is achieved within the fire spells, then it'll make sense to go work on the other elements appropriately.

But to start by first providing Acid/Electric alternatives to Wall of Fire will just make it harder to ever fix the primary balance problem in mage damage.

[Chaosprism]

Archmages are meant to have this as an ability, the ability to change the elemental descriptor on a spell.

Turning wall of fire into wall of acid, lightning bolt into polar bolt etc.

For ddo this COULD present art department challenges, but the solution to it is actually an easy one. (and it would be more than adequate)

Just colour map the output, to do this you turn the graphics of the spell into gray scales then map the grays back onto your colour of choice. "putrid yellow/green for acid, cyan/white for cold, white/dark blue for lightning, yellow/orange for fire, keeping it grey for sonic"

The you add your particle effect of choice. "snowflakes for cold descriptor, electrical sparks for electricity, smoke motes for fire, acid fumes for acid, sonar blips for sonic"

[jadenkorr]

Archmages are meant to have this as an ability, the ability to change the elemental descriptor on a spell.

Turning wall of fire into wall of acid, lightning bolt into polar bolt etc.

For ddo this COULD present art department challenges, but the solution to it is actually an easy one. (and it would be more than adequate)

Just colour map the output, to do this you turn the graphics of the spell into gray scales then map the grays back onto your colour of choice. "putrid yellow/green for acid, cyan/white for cold, white/dark blue for lightning, yellow/orange for fire, keeping it grey for sonic"

The you add you particle effect of choice. "snowflakes for cold descriptor, electrical sparks for electricity, smoke motes for fire, acid fumes for acid, sonar blips for sonic"

I think this would make for another pretty good capstone, if and when they ever make more. More damage? Or the flexibility of changing elements of spells? A very difficult choice, imo. Changing polar ray to whatever element you want is crazy stuff, but more damage is always good.

Imo, fire wall is imbalanced. When a spell goes from staple to must-have, and if you arent carrying it, youre a bad caster, you know that its too powerful. As much as I enjoy roasting monsters in a firewall as I watch from a ledge, it should be nerfed imo, to allow for more variety in spells, and not pigeonhole casters into the archetype of ''I must have firewall''. But the nerfs to firewall, must be accompanied by buffs to other useful spells.

[Kriogen]

/not signed that Acid/Elec would just be a Fire/Cold with different "color".

Add more Acid DoTs. Like Melf Acid Arrow, but bigger, hits multiple targets.

Add Stun/Knockdown side effect to Elec spell line. Or add spells, that are elec and have secondary ability like that.

So something that is not just "clone" with different color, but something that is really different. You want damage, you go Fire/Cold, you want special/funky tricks and dots, you go acid/elec.

And no nerfs please. Firewall is the only damage spells thats actually "damage". And on top of that most high level mobs are just flat out immune vs fire.

[nibel]

Wanna put wall of fire in line? Just give it a long-time casting like all other DoT spells. If you can't spam WoF reflexively when a shadow ambushes you, you'll start to search other options for those.

After that, then, you can try to solve the other points like damage and area size and duration. Correcting the casting time is the first step to balance WoF.

[mediocresurgeon]

This thread is not about how Wall of Fire is overpowered.

It's about how Acid/Electricity is underpowered and underutilized. It needs Dev help and attention!

What are your thoughts/opinions on the changes I have suggested? Would they have a positive impact upon gameplay and character diversity? Would they be relevant at high levels and epic content?

Would these changes be fun?

[Therilith]

This thread is not about how Wall of Fire is overpowered.

It's about how Acid/Electricity is underpowered and underutilized. It needs Dev help and attention!

If acid/lightning is only underpowered when compared to firewall, whether or not firewall is overpowered is obviously relevant.

[KillEveryone]

I had been thinking about posting something like this but I haven't figured out what I wanted to say.

I agree. Acid/lightining is underpowered and underused. With end level critters that have immunities to fire I use cold spells but I would like to be able to use acid or lightining spells for variety that actually do something.

As it is, I Wail, FoD, Cone of Cold, Polar, Firewall when critters are not immune. I use energy drain when I need to, Otto's Irresistable is loaded for Sharavarath, Disintegrate is also loaded but I don't use that very often either. These are the spells I mostly use and I'm spec'ed into fire/ice because the other options are not worth it.

[Angelus_dead]

What are your thoughts/opinions on the changes I have suggested?
Of course Acid Fog needs to be fixed to do what it says it does.

One change I didn't see you mention: acid damage needs a fix so it stacks. If we have two Wizards using cold spells on a boss that do twice the DPS of one Wizard, because all the spells reduce hp separately. But if two guys are casting acid on a boss they do less than double damage, because Acid Fog and Acid Arrow don't stack from different casters.

It's understandable that two AFs in one place maybe shouldn't stack, but they shouldn't obstruct AA from working, and two players should be able to AA a monster without getting in each other's way. Non-stacking damage is a big weakness for a spell type, because it means two Sorc Savants of that type won't fully stack in the party.

[mediocresurgeon]

If acid/lightning is only underpowered when compared to firewall, whether or not firewall is overpowered is obviously relevant.

Wall of Fire is the benchmark for AoE DoTs (the most-used type of spell in DDO). Even if Wall of Fire were removed from the game (not going to happen!) people would still probably stay Cold/Fire specialized and ignore Acid/Lightning, just because the lightning spells suck so bad (in area and usefulness), the Acid spells are buggy, and as A_D pointed out, don't allow multiple spellcasters of the same spec to contribute.

I don't think Lightning Ring would be too much to ask for; the Devs have all the pieces in other spells. They'd just have to incorporate them into a single spell:

1) Negative energy aura from Arcane Skeleton would deal Electricity damage. (Would require a new graphic.)
2) The lightning bolt every 2 seconds could be graphically the same as the level 3 lightning bolt we currently have.
3) Targeting systems already exist for passive targeted spells (Implosion, Call Lighting from Sor'Jek, Flaming Sphere, etc).
4) The 4:00 duration (when extended) is pretty standard as far as spells go (Haste, Displacement, Fire Shield, etc).

Lightning Ring would be functionally similar to Wall of Fire in that it would deal damage to multiple enemies, and it would deal this damage over time. It would have the added benefits that (a) it would have a larger area (lightning bolts reach further that a Wall of Fire), and (b) the area would travel with the caster (unlike Wall of Fire, which is stationary). The foreseeable downside of the spell is that it require line of effect between the caster and any nearby enemies in order for the Lightning Bolts to land (unlike Wall of Fire, which lets a caster deal damage from an invulnerable position).

[Cyr]

I like that spell suggestion. Has a lot going for it.

In particular, I like the fact that it would be a very poor kiting tool as it follows you around. It would certainly increase dps for those non squishy wizards/sorcs out there. It would be useless when perching. Would give some actual choice when choicing your elemental speciality. Would add a third good spell to the arcane list at ninth level.

I would also like to second the comments about actually fixing the acid spells. It is not okay that these things are broken and then ignored for long periods of time. The fog spells being broken has changed game play.

[mediocresurgeon]

In particular, I like the fact that it would be a very poor kiting tool as it follows you around.

This depends entirely on how close you allow enemies to get to you while kiting. The closer they are, the more damage they will take, but the risk of failure increases as well!


It would be useless when perching.

This depends on whether or not your perch blocks line of effect. Example: VoN1 perch (blocks line of effect) versus Eye of the Titan perch (does not block line of effect).


Would add a third good spell to the arcane list at ninth level.
8th level, actually.

[Kromize]

I vote for my old suggestion to split up the enhancements, so that you can once and for all spec acid + fire, without having to go into lightning and ice as well... Free up the restrictions...

[Rakian_Knight]

I agree with Kromize on this one but that still won't solve the problem of Acid and Electricity spells being underpowered. If you did this I would expect to see TONS of Acid/Fire Wizards out there instead of the normal ones that you see now.

However, I'd like to ask you all a couple questions related to the subject of balencing the elements:

1) What about Force Spells? These are constantly forgotten about and aren't used very much except by the WF healers out there. Should they add more or made the cost of the enhancements cheeper because of the lack of damaging force spells out there?

2) What about the addition of the Negative energy spells that are comming with update 5? Will they be able to bring the Fire/Ice dominated game down into more then just casting Walls of Fire and Polar Rays? The AoE one is the primary one that is being talked about at this moment because it will allow Pale Masters to enter Lich form and be healed but with the extra bonuses of the Lich form could this become the new Wall of Fire or Warforged self healing Wizard?

Again just my thoughts so don't feel compelled to personally bash me.

~Rakian_Knight

[mediocresurgeon]

Just thought I'd bump an old post... word on the street is that the Devs are trying to make unused spells and elements useful (like Ice Storm). It also sounds like they are no longer combining two elements into a single enhancement anymore (a good thing, since they are also reducing the AP cost).

I think now would be a great time to add Lightning Ring to the game, since Lightning spells don't have any strong options right now.

[Nerate_Mireth]

You wanna make these more widely used? How about giving us the plane of Fernia....All fire creatures...Fire heals them....they have natural cold resist 30 so cold spells are out....leaves lightning, acid, negative and force.

Just a quick passing thought. Cause once there's a need in the game for the forgotten spells, nerfing the staples becomes easier.

[Damionic]

110% Signed and Aggree..but even if Turbine.

Buffs the Acid spells/and or adds new ones.

Add's Electric Ring and other ones like...

Scintillating Sphere

The caster unleashes a crackling electric projectile that explodes upon all within the area of effect for 1d6 points of electric damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6.
Caster Level(s):Wizard / Sorcerer 3Innate Level:3School:EvocationDescriptors:ElectricityComp onents:Verbal, SomaticRange:MediumArea of Effect/ Target:HugeDuration:InstantaneousSave:Reflex 1/2Spell Resistance:Yes

Mestil's Acid Breath

You breathe forth a cone of acidic droplets. The cone inflicts 1d6 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 10d6).
Caster Level(s):Wizard / Sorcerer 3Innate Level:3School:ConjurationDescriptors:AcidComponent s:Verbal, SomaticRange:ShortArea of Effect/ Target:ConeDuration:InstantaneousSave:Reflex 1/2Spell Resistance:Yes

Mestil's Acid Sheath

This spell creates an acid shield around your person. Any creature striking you with its body does normal damage, but at the same time the attacker takes 1d6 points +2 points per caster level of acid damage.
Caster Level(s):Wizard / Sorcerer 5Innate Level:5School:ConjurationDescriptors:AcidComponent s:Verbal, Somatic

Great Thunderclap

You create a loud noise equivalent to a peal of thunder and its accompanying shock wave. The spell has three effects. First, all creatures in the area must make Will saves to avoid being stunned for 1 round. Second, the creatures must make Fortitude saves or be deafened for 1 minute. Third, they must make Reflex saves or fall prone.
Caster Level(s):Wizard / Sorcerer 7Innate Level:7School:EvocationDescriptors:SonicComponents :Verbal, SomaticRange:MediumArea of Effect/ Target:HugeDuration:InstantaneousSave:See AboveSpell Resistance:No

Or if this game is going D&D 3.5/4.0 Mix

Spell Storm Mage PrE (In the D&D 4.0 Players Handbook)
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Spellstorm_mage (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Spellstorm_mage)

We would STILL be giving FIRE/ICE the edge due to PURPLE damage!! :mad:

[mediocresurgeon]

Great Thunderclap

You create a loud noise equivalent to a peal of thunder and its accompanying shock wave. The spell has three effects. First, all creatures in the area must make Will saves to avoid being stunned for 1 round. Second, the creatures must make Fortitude saves or be deafened for 1 minute. Third, they must make Reflex saves or fall prone.
Caster Level(s):Wizard / Sorcerer 7Innate Level:7School:EvocationDescriptors:SonicComponents :Verbal, SomaticRange:MediumArea of Effect/ Target:HugeDuration:InstantaneousSave:See AboveSpell Resistance:No

They already have the coding done for this one (Sor'Jek casts it) so it would be easy to add.

[Bogenbroom]

Running the obscene number of casters I do, I have an Acid/Electricity specced wizzie at 20... and yes, he is less effective, I have to agree. Enough so that I have to keep his fire/cold enhancement up there as well to make sure he is viable.

A couple of thoughts on this topic... folks frequently mention energy substitution in this discussion, but that would have *major* implications to the game. You would have casters dropping 5 walls of (element) in place and doing incredible damage. If such a thing were to be done there would have to be a lot of work put in to mitigate that sort of layering. Probably something along the line of having only 1 AoE affect a target at a time, or 1 canceling out another, etc.

However, Acid and Electric (not to mention Sonic and Force) could use some serious loving. Acid really is best suited to DoT damage, which is an area DDO does not much utilize. There are some seriously gimped spells out there in the Acid arena that could use some help. Melf's, Burning Blood (yes, also fire, but...) and Acid Fog. Acid Fog is largely broken, but its damage component should be re-evaluated. Electric really isn't too bad... it is fairly compatible to Cold in usefulness. So, to me, it is the Acid that needs help. Personal opinion....

[mediocresurgeon]

I thought I'd bump an old thread, and see if opinions have changed or if the community believes these balance issues still exist.

[KillEveryone]

I thought I'd bump an old thread, and see if opinions have changed or if the community believes these balance issues still exist.

I'm still looking forward to their polish pass at spells, whenever it happens.

At least Ice Storm is getting a overhaul. It may not be extendable but with the increase in damage it is a step in the right direction.

Really would like to see Acid and Electric become more prevalent. Some DoT for electric would be good.

[azrael4h]

Teaching the AI to not stand around having tea as a raging wall of magical flame burns their flesh off will take care of WoF being "Overpowered". It is overpowered because you drop one, and critters will stand or run through it without a care in the world. Same as Blade Barrier, even though such a change would hurt both my Favored Soul and Cleric.

I'm looking forward to the spell pass as well. Hopefully some lesser used spells will get some cost reductions, so that they'll be more viable just on the basis of cost effectiveness.

[voodoogroves]

Agree kinda with the problem, do not agree with the proposal.

My proposal: Introduce more content where fire/ice is sub-optimal. This is already going on; how many of your Walls of Fire are you noticing getting snuffed out by various other spells?

Slow changes and course corrects are good on this one; they won't send the cart careening off the path.

[KillEveryone]

Agree kinda with the problem, do not agree with the proposal.

My proposal: Introduce more content where fire/ice is sub-optimal. This is already going on; how many of your Walls of Fire are you noticing getting snuffed out by various other spells?

Slow changes and course corrects are good on this one; they won't send the cart careening off the path.

Not into the content idea. When fire/ice is suboptimal, you switch to wail and finger if you are high enough. If they are lower levels then as a fire/ice you don't run it, swap your line for a short time, or you don't get into a group.

The fire/ice line is taken so often because of Wall of Fire. There isn't another DoT spell in the game that is as SP efficient as firewall.

I don't mind having my firewall snuffed out. Would like to see more intelligent AI, something that doesn't stand in my firewall.

[Tarnoc]

Your approach is to boost Acid/Electric by providing it with spells of similar effectiveness to Wall of Fire.

That is a misprioritized path. Consider what would happen if DDO mages were somehow restricted to fire spells only, and the other elements went away: There would still be a serious imbalance between Wall of Fire and all the rest, particularly DBF and Meteor Swarm. Firewall is just miles ahead of the other spells in DPM, while not being too far behind in DPS, reach, or reaction.

The good way to fix spells is to first focus on bringing Wall of Fire more in line with the others. That won't be an easy task, but it can be done with some combination of nerfs to firewall and buffs to other spells (especially something like reducing their mana cost to raise DPM). Once balance is achieved within the fire spells, then it'll make sense to go work on the other elements appropriately.

But to start by first providing Acid/Electric alternatives to Wall of Fire will just make it harder to ever fix the primary balance problem in mage damage.

straight to NERF why doesnt that surprise from you......do you play the game or you still trolling with borroro

[yawumpus]

are the boss elemental resists. Allow archmagi to cast a wall of electricity and Harry dies in half a round when severely shortmaned. Other boss' have similar resistances. If you raise electricity to prevent this, you nerf every Lit2 weapon in the game.

Right now fire and ice are the goto spells in the game. Electrical and acid are what you use on critters immune (or have high enough resists) to fire&ice. What we have now is more or less balanced (you can fairly easily change from fire speced to acid speced, less so between classes or changing lit2 weapons), and the dependencies run deep.

/not signed.
[yes I have a completely speced fire sorc. His choices are pretty much fire, ice, or disintegrate (knows acid blast, but doesn't boost it).]