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Aerendil
05-11-2010, 03:01 PM
This concept combines one U5 PrE (Ninja Spy) and a future racial PrE (Drow's Scorpion Wraith), but will be effective even without Wraith implemented (and Assassin I can be a perfectly valid filler).

End split will be 12 Monk / 7 Rogue / 1 other (most likely 1 Ranger for devotion I, +3 FE dmg, and sprint/energy boosts, as well as the extra skill points allowing me to keep Rogue skills maxed).


Pros to the build:
- 2d6 unarmed damage. 2d8 if TRed from a past-life Monk. Still on par with the base damage of GS weaponry, and the lack of max unarmed damage dice is made up for with sneak damage dice.
- fast movement tier 4 of 6 for a fast-moving character.
- access to Ninja Spy II, whatever that may hold (TBA at this point). Tier one offers shortsword use and a self-25% incorporeal buff which will stack with Blur / Displacement for very effective defense.
- access to Scorpion Wraith racial PrE, whatever that may also hold (also TBA). Presumed to have sneak attack damage, poison use, and further shadow abilities.
- Abundant Step
- Touch of Death
- tier III stances and ki strikes. That's 20% self-haste, or 7.5% on top of the Haste spell. And 2d10 element ki strikes as quickly as you can cycle them.
- 10 feats to play with
- immunity to disease and poison
- Improved Uncanny Dodge
- monk wis III, rogue dex II
- tier III animal paths
- Improved Evasion
- Wholeness of Body
- 3 of 5 centered AC bonuses
- full trap skills/abilities (including upcoming U5 trap salvaging skills) if so inclined, as well as full UMD.
- Rogue damage boost III (+4 dmg) and haste boost III (+25%) for dps boosts.
- Reasonable Monk finisher DC (10 + 12 Monk levels + 5 or 6 Wis mod = 28ish. Should hit most things) for Touch of Despair to make 100% fort enemies crittable.
- Unbalancing strike DC of 10+6+wis mod = 22 or 23ish for exposing enemies to SA damage, even if tanking.
- Great sneak attack damage (4d6+9 from Rogue levels; Ninja Spy = 1d6, possibly 2d6 if linear progression. Could pick up Assassin I for an extra +1d6 until Scorpion Wraith comes along. +8 from Tharne's, and a further +10 if a TRed Rogue past life. So you could be looking at 7d6+27 all told)
- access to all 3 weapon types while remaining centered. Kamas for slashing; shortswords for piercing; unarmed for blunt. This character should never lack for dps, and should always have the right weapon for the job. Whether it is unarmed for slimes, slashing for zombies, or piercing for spiders / rakshasa, this character can do it. It also allows for a good endgame variety, whether it be radiance II shortswords, vorpal kamas, or devout handwraps, this character can tackle anything given the right equipment. You should never, ever, lack for dps in any given situation.

Suggested starting stats:
Drow.
S: 14 (+5 lvl ups +6 item +1 exc. str +2 tome = 28 end-game easily. Add in rage/madstone, yugo pots, etc...)
D: 16 (+6 item +2 tome +2 drow dex2 +2 rogue dex2 = 28. Wind wind stance and a +3 tome, can hit 32 dex)
C: 14
I: 12 (+1 tome = CE)
W: 12 (+6 item +2 tome +2 monk wis2 = 22)
C: 10

Tomes required = +1 DEX for the TWF line; +1 INT if you want CE. Not a big deal these days, as you can even purchase them through the DDO store. Very, very beginner friendly as you only really require Drow and Monk access.

Feats (suggested/required):
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA, CE, Dodge, Toughness, IC:Piercing, IC: Bludgeoning, 1 empty.
Suggested feat for the empty slot will be Quick Draw to take advantage of the haste/damage clickies, as well as weapon swaps, but Skill Focus : UMD may serve you better at early levels.


Potential AC:
10 base
8 bracers
4 icy (dodge)
3 chattering (dodge)
5 CE
5 protection
3 centered
1 dodge
1 ritual AC
4 insight
10 dex (achievable with little difficulty)
6 wis (achievable with little difficulty)
==
60 AC beholder and with CE on

Self-buffed:
3 barkskin
1 haste pot
4 shield clickie/wand
==
67 AC

Raid-buffed:
6 DoS aura
4 bard song
2 recitation
2 full barkskin
==
81 AC

Very short-term AC:
6 Imp. Uncanny Dodge
==
87 AC.

Granted, in Epic mode this may be moot, but then you'll also have 50% displacement on you more than likely plus your 25% incorporeal buff. You may very well be the most untouchable character out there.


HPs - someone else can work this out, but 12 monk levels + 8 Rogue levels + toughness + a few racial toughness enhancements should provide a workable HP level. I'd wager around 400-500ish easily once kitted out in greensteel and higher-end gear.

Suggested level split:
My character is currently built and will be holding at level 9 or 10, awaiting Update 5 and centered shortswords. One thing I've noticed thus far is that you'll want to plan your skills fairly carefully. 4 skill points on Monk levels to play with = not much at all. It's doable, but you'll simply lag behind every 2-3 levels and have to play catch-up with the Rogue levels.
Or you can bypass trapsmithing altogether and simply keep your Monk skills + Open Lock + UMD maxed. Whatever works for you. Just be aware that when people see 8 Rogue levels endgame, they may very well expect you to be able to do traps.

Sillk
05-11-2010, 04:36 PM
Ideal split would either be 13 Rogue / 7 Monk (for wholeness of body if you want to be uber self-sufficient) or 13 Rogue / 6 Monk / 1 other (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian are all perfectly valid options here), so there is some flexibility.

Barbarian isn't perfectly valid.

Aerendil
05-11-2010, 05:44 PM
Lol, good catch.

GhoulsTouch
05-11-2010, 05:47 PM
1 level of caster to get an edge on UMD...

Gartooga
05-11-2010, 06:17 PM
1 level of caster to get an edge on UMD...

Rouges and bards are the only classes that get UMD as a class skill and this build is mainly rouge so.......

Aerendil
05-12-2010, 08:24 AM
^^ Correct. Rogue gets UMD naturally, but will struggle to keep it maxed during the Monk levels.

At 12 INT, during the Monk levels, you have 5 skill points to play with. Not a whole lot, really.
So you can put your points into Spot and Conc, and maybe try to keep DD maxed. UMD, OL, and a few others will lag behind, but then you have 10+ Rogue levels to play catch-up after level 7 or 8, so no worries there.

At this point I think I may level this build to level 10ish played as a mostly Monk-Acrobat, using wind stance and QSs / fists, and leave him or her (haven't created yet) until Update 5 comes out, which should be in a month. Stock up on shortswords, farm the heck out of Gwylan's/Redwillow's/Delera's for sunblades, and then once U5 hits respec to Ninja I and go from there.
/shrug.

We'll see how it goes :)
But at this point, until such time as Touch of Death gets changed to work with weapons, the ideal split is to splash Monk onto a Rogue and not the other way around I think.
SSs on a Monk = gimped dps; SSs on a Rogue = perfectly viable, since dps will come from SA damage + wind stance haste. If anyone has seen Phenx's Acrobat build at endgame with haste clicky on, the # of attacks is insane, and when each of those attacks gets sneak attack damage dice, it really adds up. This build may not approach the speed of an acrobat, but it's definitely up there.

Psyker
05-12-2010, 08:33 AM
farm the heck out of Gwylan's/Redwillow's/Delera's for sunblades,

I know this is a bit off-topic but do sunblades have a higher drop from these quests. I have seen one pulled from Redwillow's but I always thought they were a random pull with a greater chance out of the subterranean. Thanks for your help.

Aerendil
05-12-2010, 08:36 AM
Nope, I'd say Sub probably has a higher drop rate, but it also far more dangerous. To each their own, though, I guess. For me, it's easier to just ransack Redwillow's/Gwylan's in record time and hope for the best :p

Zippo
05-12-2010, 08:46 AM
farm the heck out of Gwylan's/Redwillow's/Delera's for sunblades,

For what its worth, a few weeks ago I pulled one from "storming the beaches" from the chest on the docked boat.

Aerendil
05-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Revised initial build from a 13 Rog / 7 Monk split to 12 Monk / 8 Rogue.
This looks to be the best bang for the buck based on what I want to play, although a 13 Rog assassin II / 7 Monk ninja spy I combo would be very nice as well.

Calebro
05-17-2010, 09:26 AM
^^ Correct. Rogue gets UMD naturally, but will struggle to keep it maxed during the Monk levels.

At 12 INT, during the Monk levels, you have 5 skill points to play with. Not a whole lot, really.
So you can put your points into Spot and Conc, and maybe try to keep DD maxed. UMD, OL, and a few others will lag behind, but then you have 10+ Rogue levels to play catch-up after level 7 or 8, so no worries there.

You'd want to skip a monk level on rogue skills.

1) Max rogue skills as a rogue
2) Max monk skills as a monk
3) 1 full point into rogue skills as a monk
4) Max rogue skills as a rogue

Doing this, 2 out of 3 levels leave your rogue skills 1 point shy of max, then they get maxed again. And you get more skill points overall this way by no cross-classing skills every level, but only every 3 levels.

You could even strictly raise rogue skills only on rogue levels, but then UMD would suffer.

Calebro
05-17-2010, 09:41 AM
I had an idea similar to your original though. I'll basically be swapping my rogue13/monk7 to dark path and doing the following.

Full 10d6 sneak attack of a pure rogue
7d6 from rogue, 1d6 from ninja spy, 2d6 from assassinII
(10d6+13 with enhancements)
All while staying centered, adding in Ki strikes, and constantly going invisible/incorporeal


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.32
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(7 Monk / 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 283
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 14/14/19/24
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 23
Will: 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 16
Dexterity 16 28
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 16 20
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense

Level 7 (Monk)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

Level 10 (Monk)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Rogue)

Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 19 (Rogue)

Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Halfliing Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

2WD was only taken because there weren't too many other things I wanted. If and/or when Shadow Blade is added, that's what will go there.

Aerendil
05-17-2010, 09:57 AM
You'd want to skip a monk level on rogue skills.

1) Max rogue skills as a rogue
2) Max monk skills as a monk
3) 1 full point into rogue skills as a monk
4) Max rogue skills as a rogue

Doing this, 2 out of 3 levels leave your rogue skills 1 point shy of max, then they get maxed again. And you get more skill points overall this way by no cross-classing skills every level, but only every 3 levels.

You could even strictly raise rogue skills only on rogue levels, but then UMD would suffer.

Yep, that's more or less what I've been doing.
Monk levels = raise Conc, Spot, and one of Search or Disable Device.
Rogue levels = play catch-up with UMD, and Search or DD, plus Hide/MS.
So far my new char is level 7, almost 8, and trap skills are 1 point shy of max for level. But with +5 to +7 items and Rogue skill boost, things haven't been a problem yet at all. Only the occasional elite may require Heroism or bard buffs.

As for the 13 Rog / 7 Monk, yeah, that was awful tempting I must admit. Damage will be pretty crazy, and AC will be essentially the same as my build above + blur/displacement and incorporeality. Again, very survivable.
My only comment on your build would be to maybe lower WIS to 12ish, and up INT to 12-14. Assassin can use the extra INT for the assassinate DC, and you could always have CE for the extra AC if you needed it - you'd have the feats to spare.
*edit* - oh, and maybe consider putting level-ups into STR. Personal choice here, I guess, but it's a question of having 22-24str + 36-40dex vs. mid 30s in both. It's been pointed out elsewhere that to-hit generally isn't a problem for most quests, especially as a Rogue flanking with Rogue flanking boost + Monk animal path flanking bonus + bard buffs + greater heroism, etc., so the extra damage is always worth it. But up to you :)

Calebro
05-17-2010, 09:59 AM
My only comment on your build would be to maybe lower WIS to 12ish, and up INT to 12-14. Assassin can use the extra INT for the assassinate DC, and you could always have CE for the extra AC if you needed it - you'd have the feats to spare.

Assassin is for the extra SA damage, not for assassinate. One or two more DC on assassinate isn't going to help much, so I'm not wasting the build points on it when I get so much more from the Wis.

Aerendil
05-17-2010, 11:38 AM
Ahh, fair enough.
Yeah, if Scorp. Wraith turns out to be rubbish, I will mostly grab Assassin I for the extra 1d6 SA dice.

He'll already be at 4d6+9 from Rogue levels + 1d6 Ninja I (possibly 2d6 from Ninja II), so Assassin I could put me at a theoretical 7d6+9 (+8 more if you include Tharne's) which is still pretty nice :)

Either build should be pretty sick, come Update 5. If you're on Cannith, let me know and we'll group up and see how they compare.

Diarden
05-17-2010, 11:41 AM
How do you have +3 centered AC bonus weilding Shortswords?

Calebro
05-17-2010, 11:42 AM
How do you have +3 centered AC bonus weilding Shortswords?

Soon to be Ninja Spy PrE for Monks.

Dark-Star
05-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Have they indicated when Scorpion Wraith is due to be released?

Aerendil
05-17-2010, 02:07 PM
Have they indicated when Scorpion Wraith is due to be released?

Nope. No idea at this point, probably not until Mod 6 or later (unless Eladrin surprises us within the next month or so).
I'd imagine they'll release Dragonmarked Heirs, Juggernaut, and Scorpion Wraith all around the same time, as we're still waiting on those.

So we might be waiting awhile, in which case Assassin is a nice filler-in.
Based on the PnP version of Scorpion Wraith, they were granted empathy with scorpions (similar to Ranger abilities), sudden attack dice (similar to sneak attack), poison use, and certain darkness abilities (i.e. blindsight, ability to cast darkness, and so on). So we'll see what they bring, but if it's similar to the PnP version it will be a nice alternative to the current Rogue PrEs.

Aerendil
05-18-2010, 08:30 AM
Char hit level 7 last night with ease, having no problems in Delera's with a QS of Pure Good.
Didn't get those holy handwraps to drop, but aiming on farming for Devouts with this guy anyways.

It's also becoming apparent that even with only 12 Monk levels for 2d6 endgame fist damage, his unarmed damage will still be very good.
With devouts and lvl 18 rings, you're looking at 2d6+1 +5 (PA) +10 (str of 30 easily) +1d6 (good) +2d6 (holy) +1d10 (whatever other burst you put on it).

With SA damage thrown in that's an extra 4d6+9 (from Rogue) +1d6 (Ninja I - possibly 2d6 if Ninja II is linear) + 8 (Tharne's).

Shortswords will be mainly for special occasions, such as Rakshasas, or if I'm having trouble getting Devouts I can easily pick up a metalline of pure good SS set for boss beaters. If I can get a pair of twin paralyzers at level 10ish, that would be ideal over handwraps at that point; and dual smiters / banishers would also be very handy for certain other areas.

As a result, I envision myself using both handwraps and shortswords to a high degree, with perhaps more emphasis on handwraps in dps modes, and shortswords (or kamas) for when I need a vorpal, smite, banish, or so on. Twin radiance II SSs once crafted would also be great for trash mobs, especially if solo. We'll see.
Initial post's feat list has been modified to reflect Improved Crit X 2 for both piercing and unarmed to take advantage of this.