The Way of the Ninja

[SolarDawning]

With the exciting advent of Ninja Spy 1, revealed today by Eladrin, as well as the tasty info that Ninja Spy will have two tiers released in Update 5, I've been unable to help myself.

Time to make a character build!

My dark path monk, Elysidia, has always been destined for the Way of the Ninja, and will be reincarnating anew to turn into this build.

Race:Halfling
Levels: Monk 12, Ranger 6, Rogue 2

Reasoning for Levels:
Monk 12 allows for tier 3 Wind stance and Earth Strike, as well as Abundant Step and the as of yet unreleased Ninja Spy II. It's just the best break point for this build.
Ranger 6: Tempest 1, of course, as well as two Favored Enemies and Ram's Might.
Rogue 2: Skills, haste boost, and more sneak attack.

Goals of the Build: Extremely fast attack speed, high DPS via sneak attack and monk strikes against raid bosses and other enemies, survivability through solid HP, improved evasion, high saving throws, self heals and fast movement speed, sufficient trap skills, and UMD.

Simply put- this is a DPS similar to the Exploiter build, except remaining centered and fighting with greensteel shortswords due to the Ninja Spy path. This build fights in Wind Stance 3, attacks with Earth Strike 3, Wind Strike 3, and has sneak attack from halfling racial enhancements, Tharne's Goggles, Ninja Spy enhancements, Rogue class, and Rogue enhancement.

Base Primary Statistics: 36 point buy
(Add tomes as per availability.)
Strength: 14 (Level bonus points will all go here.)
Dexterity: 16 (Will not be raised further except by racial enhancements, ranger enhancements (if desired), or tomes. A tome will provide the required dexterity for GTWF.
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 14
Charisma: 8

I'm not going to list final stats. You can just look at what gear, tomes, and buffs you can see your character having, and plug them in yourself.

I'm going to do something that I'll take a lot of flak for, and take the Dragonmarks of Healing on this build. Why? Because I like them. Feel free to take more combat-effective feats instead.

Level progression and Feats:
Level 1 (Rogue) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Level 2 (Monk) Monk Bonus - Dodge (Required for both Ninja Spy and Tempest)
Level 3 (Ranger) (Free feat: Bow Strength) Mobility (Required for Tempest)
Level 4 (Ranger) (Free feat: TWF, Rapid Shot)
Level 5 (Ranger) (Free Feat: Diehard)
Level 6 (Ranger) Spring Attack (Required for Tempest)
Level 7 (Ranger)
Level 8 (Ranger) (Free Feats: Improved TWF, Manyshot)
Level 9 (Monk) (Monk Bonus - Toughness), Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Level 10 (Monk) (Path of Darkness)
Level 11 (Monk)
Level 12 (Monk) Greater Dragonmark of Healing
Level 13 (Monk) (Monk Bonus- Power Attack)
Level 14 (Monk)
Level 15 (Monk) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 16 (Monk)
Level 17 (Monk)
Level 18 (Monk) (Feat depends on play style- Improved Crit if you like Lit II greensteels)
Level 19 (Monk)
Level 20 (Rogue)

As you can see, we have all the feats needed to cover the basics- Power Attack, Toughness, the TWF line, as well as all the prerequisite feats for our two prestige lines.

I won't go into detail on skills or enhancements, you guys can figure skill and enhancement point allocation however you like to suit your playstyle.

Anyways, that's the basic build!

[Geonis]

You'd still do better damage with handwraps.....

[SolarDawning]

You'd still do better damage with handwraps.....

Why, exactly?
Shortswords will have a 17-20 critical range, as well as the freedom to put exceptional strength and con on ToD rings.
With the fast attack speed from tempest 1, Wind Stance 3, and an outside bonus such as Madstone Rage (that's 10% competence, 7.5% insight, 20% enhancement), and then rogue haste boost added into the mix, this build will do much more damage with Min II greensteels than with handwraps, which would not receive the tempest bonus.

[Geonis]

Because, you start at double base damage with 2d6 fists, then you add in faster attack rate with unarmed (approx 4-5% if I remember right), then you add in 500 points every 15 secs....

Edit- All the attack speed boosts (other than Tempest) apply to unarmed the same as dual short swords, and unarmed has a faster base attack speed, so the attack speed is real close at best, and I would be willing to bet, still favors unarmed.

Also, 1 more Str bonus is not going to outdamage Shocking Burst/Holy Burst.

To put it in simplest terms, you are dual wielding kamas with a slightly better crit range...... how many do you still see wielding kamas over unarmed?

[SolarDawning]

Because, you start at double base damage with 2d6 fists, then you add in faster attack rate with unarmed (approx 4-5% if I remember right), then you add in 500 points every 15 secs....
Ah crud, you just made a good point. I forgot that ToD's been changed to not work with weapons, after it was hitting twice when released on Lammania. >.<

But, FYI, 2d6 on a 19-20 (with improved crit) is much worse than a Min II shortsword, which has base 1d8, crit on 17-20 (comes with keen, so no need to waste a feat), not to mention the extra 1d4 bleed, metalline, and tailor-made handy abilities of your choice. (Myself, I like Holy, Acid Burst, and Good Blast).

[grodon9999]

Funny - i thought of a very similar build while on the bowl before . . .

[Geonis]

Ah crud, you just made a good point. I forgot that ToD's been changed to not work with weapons, after it was hitting twice when released on Lammania. >.<

But, FYI, 2d6 on a 19-20 (with improved crit) is much worse than a Min II shortsword, which has base 1d8, crit on 17-20 (comes with keen, so no need to waste a feat), not to mention the extra 1d4 bleed, metalline, and tailor-made handy abilities of your choice. (Myself, I like Holy, Acid Burst, and Good Blast).

But we have to be fair here....

Your Min2 ss, vs good HWs and ToD rings...

Metalline of PG and 2 rings (shock burst and good burst) should roughly equal out with you Min2 (not running numbers here).

[Riggs]

Like Geonis said about base damage...and if you went 18/2 rogue would then get greater stance, and 2d8 base damage anyway (2d10 if tr), plus bursting rings, plus tier 4 ki strikes.

A ninja spy build should probably be some combo of 12 monk, 8 rogue, or 6/14 or something similar probably. Too bad you couldnt fit crippling strike and touch of death all together.

*edit, I guess you could go 9/11 and give up improved evasion?

[Calebro]

I'm just excited that my non-Q-staff rogue 13 / monk 7 will now have at least a mediocre weapon option to keep himself centered. I'm not worried about tier 2 just yet. Tier 1 makes me happy.
Although he'll need to change to dark path first....

Too bad you couldnt fit crippling strike and touch of death all together.

Why couldn't you?
Monk 9 / Rogue 10 leaves you with one level left to choose.
It may not be the most common level split, but you could certainly fit both if you wanted.

[SolarDawning]

But we have to be fair here....

Your Min2 ss, vs good HWs and ToD rings...

Metalline of PG and 2 rings (shock burst and good burst) should roughly equal out with you Min2 (not running numbers here).

Yeah, but it doesn't, especially if you look at lightning II's instead. They lead DPS by such a large margin on enemies vulnerable to electric that it's just silly. This is one of the chief complaints of monk players- the ToD rings just don't make wraps as good as greensteel.

The one hole I've run into now though is the lack of Touch of Death. It's only 33 DPS, but it's a load of fun and I love having it. I'll probably just wind up doing pure monk with wraps again so that I don't have to give it up.

[Valindria]

I was thinking something like:

Drow 12 fighter 6 monk

Drow damage II (+2 damage)
Drow Attack II (+2 attack)
Fighter Kensei II (+2 hit/+2 damage, +2 ki on crit)
Weapon Focus (+1 attack)
Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
Way of the Elegant Crane II (+2 Ki on crits)
Improved Crit Pierce

+8 Damage +5 to hit, +5 ki on crits (crits on 17-20)

Other things:
TWF, GTWF, ITWF
Dodge
Fighter Haste Boost
Toughness
Air Stance 2
PA
Stunning blow?
Greater Weapon Focus?

Edit:
What about:
12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Paladin

For Divine Grace, 1 AC for Aura, +1 to hit (Follower of Vulkoor)

[Trillea]

I am thinking 13 rog/6 monk/1 ftr dual wielding a min 2 and a rad II shortsword, getting 8d6 sneak attack, tier II wind stance, imp evasion, and assassin II, along with the 25% miss chance that should give a second check when added to blur/displacement

[Artagon]

One thing to keep in mind is that with the larger crit range, shortswords will generate ki faster than any monk weapon currently in play (other than Midnights Greetings). I'd be willing to bet also that one of the levels of ninja spy will allow you to use ToD with the shortswords, or at least a similar ability, otherwise, what's the point of all that ki? Though I guess you could burn through all the silly neg energy debuffs..

[ConnorMacLoad]

Rogue 2: more sneak attack.

I may have missed this somewhere, but has it been confirmed that the 1d6 from monk 6 will stack with the 1d6 from rogue1?

[OldAquarian]

Monk 9 / Rogue 10 leaves you with one level left to choose.
It may not be the most common level split, but you could certainly fit both if you wanted.

Would the DC on Touch of Death be an issue?

[SolarDawning]

I may have missed this somewhere, but has it been confirmed that the 1d6 from monk 6 will stack with the 1d6 from rogue1?

Eladrin has, in the puzzle thread. Just use the dev tracker.

[SolarDawning]

Would the DC on Touch of Death be an issue?
Touch of Death has no saving throw. It's just 500 extra damage.

[xEthreal]

If i were making this build i would go

12monk/8fighter

Haste boost 3 + Kensai + 3rd tier monk stance.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(8 Fighter \ 12 Monk)
Hit Points: 318
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 18
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 16 18
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 21
Bluff -1 4
Concentration 6 23
Diplomacy -1 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 0
Heal 1 4
Hide 3 6
Intimidate -1 1
Jump 6 24
Listen 1 4
Move Silently 3 6
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spot 1 2
Swim 3 7
Tumble 4 20.5
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Healing


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Lightning Reflexes


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)

[OldAquarian]

If i were making this build i would go

12monk/8fighter

Haste boost 3 + Kensai + 3rd tier monk stance.


Haste 3 is at F7 - why not 12monk/7fighter/1rogue?

[Emizand]

With the exciting advent of Ninja Spy 1, revealed today by Eladrin,



Where?

[SolarDawning]

Search the forums!

[Greydeath]

Monk 12, Ranger 6, Rogue 2
Monk13 > Rog2


(Myself, I like Holy, Acid Burst, and Good Blast).
... good luck with that :rolleyes:

[SolarDawning]

Monk13 > Rog2

Why is that? There's no useful enhancements or class features at monk level 13, whereas a second level of rogue allows for dumping a lot more skill points into UMD.



... good luck with that :rolleyes:

Typo. :P Acid Blast, obviously was the intended. Thanks for noticing that for me, so I can fix it.

[Eurytos]

I didn't read the whole thread, but don't get too excited with shortswords. Handwraps will be far better. Why?


Cannot use Touch of Death with weapons, only Handwraps
No such thing as a weighted 5% shortsword
No ToD Rings (Granted there is greensteel)
2d10 vs 1d8 (Greensteel)
Even with tempest and wind3, handwraps are faster
Greensteel gets LS2, HW gets Touch of Death. ToD is much more reliable and versatile


While typing this, I thought it could be a fun light path build, but then you wouldn't get shortsword ki weapons, so meh.

[Razcar]

[...] along with the 25% miss chance that should give a second check when added to blur/displacement
"Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move. "

That would make it very powerful, especially teamed with Displacement. With a Smoke Screen GS item you would have 20% concealment and then 25% from Shadow Fade. Pop a Displacement scroll and you'd have 25% and 50% miss chance. Very powerful when fighting trash mobs, and on Epic.

But I doubt it will give another check after concealment. If it does it might have another limitation, like expiring when attacking (just like invisibility does). But we'll see, unless a dev might enlighten us before please.

[Eurytos]

It says "becoming invisible," if that works like the invisible spell, it would be removed after starting a fight anyway.

[Arkat]

Where?

Use the Dev Tracker in the top left portion of the page.

[SolarDawning]

It says "becoming invisible," if that works like the invisible spell, it would be removed after starting a fight anyway.

Pretty much, there's two things that would have to happen first before I'd build this character.
1: Touch of Death fixed to work with a weapon equipped.
2: Confirmation (from Lamannia, when the patch goes up) that the incorporeal miss chance on Shadow Fade does not end when the invisibility effect is cancelled by combat.

[Arkat]

Despite the fact Ninja Spy is a Dark Monk PrE and Touch of Death is a Dark Monk ability, something tells me the fact Touch of Death won't work with weapons is intended and therefore, won't be "fixed."

Sorry.

[SolarDawning]

Despite the fact Ninja Spy is a Dark Monk PrE and Touch of Death is a Dark Monk ability, something tells me the fact Touch of Death won't work with weapons is intended and therefore, won't be "fixed."

Sorry.

Here's my train of thought on it:
When Touch of Death was first in testing, it did work with kamas.
However, it hit twice when used with kamas and the Two-Weapon Fighting feats.
As two Touch of Death's for the cost and cooldown of one was clearly not the intended result, it was changed before it went live to not work with weapons equipped. (The only applicable one at the time being Kama)

I see that as something of an emergency kludge fix, and still hope that the intended functionality of the ability would be for it to work with weapons equipped, but only hit once.

[Greydeath]

Why is that? There's no useful enhancements or class features at monk level 13, whereas a second level of rogue allows for dumping a lot more skill points into UMD.

Skill points are irrelevant since you already have more than enough to max all your Rogue skills if you so desired.

Rog DEX? Get better options through Ranger...
Rog SA Accuracy? No way it should be needed

I guess there is Rog Trap Lore for the ones not already covered by Ranger :rolleyes:

Ergo - what ARE you getting from Rog2? And therefore at least Monk offers Diamond Soul and more HP.

[Kriogen]

I didn't read the whole thread, but don't get too excited with shortswords. Handwraps will be far better. Why?


Cannot use Touch of Death with weapons, only Handwraps
No such thing as a weighted 5% shortsword
No ToD Rings (Granted there is greensteel)
2d10 vs 1d8 (Greensteel)
Even with tempest and wind3, handwraps are faster
Greensteel gets LS2, HW gets Touch of Death. ToD is much more reliable and versatile


While typing this, I thought it could be a fun light path build, but then you wouldn't get shortsword ki weapons, so meh.
You forgot full STR bonus for offhand and no -2 attack penalty.

[SolarDawning]

Skill points are irrelevant since you already have more than enough to max all your Rogue skills if you so desired.


Class skills are only class skills for the class you are taking that level in. Each point in say, UMD put in with a monk level costs 2 skill points, and doesn't allow for more than about 12 total ranks in the skill.
If a rogue level is taken last, then the skill points earned on that level can be used to full effect, and up to the maximum skill ranks of 23.

[Aganthor]

Simply put- this is a DPS similar to the Exploiter build, except remaining centered and fighting with greensteel shortswords due to the Ninja Spy path.

To my knowledge, you can't be centered while wielding non-monk weapons! And shortswords aren't monk weapons...

[Arkat]

To my knowledge, you can't be centered while wielding non-monk weapons! And shortswords aren't monk weapons...

You don't know about Eladrin's posting of Ninja Spy I do you? Use Dev Tracker and try to keep up. :)

[Aganthor]

You don't know about Eladrin's posting of Ninja Spy I do you? Use Dev Tracker and try to keep up. :)

I will go to sleep tonight feeling more intelligent :)

Here is the link -> Ninja Spy (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248225&highlight=eladrin+puzzle)

[geoffhanna]

What about a Drow Monk/Favored Soul to add the Vulkoor ss enhancements along with the ninja? You'd get self healing too plus fighter BAB.

[Kriogen]

What about a Drow Monk/Favored Soul to add the Vulkoor ss enhancements along with the ninja? You'd get self healing too plus fighter BAB.
You need to be Monk 6 min to take Ninja PrE.
You need to be FvS 8 min to take Divine Power to have full BAB. FvS is 3/4 BAB class.

And Divine Power gets you full BAB anyway.

[drsmooth]

What about a Drow Monk/Favored Soul to add the Vulkoor ss enhancements along with the ninja? You'd get self healing too plus fighter BAB.

I was thinking Drow 13/6/1 FvS/Mnk/Rog-you could even possibly fit in the future Scorpion Wraith Pre with Ninja Spy.

[Valindria]

If you didn't see:


Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.

[sigtrent]

I think at this point its more of a flavor thing... perhaps good in mid levels where the weapon effects like banishing and smiting have some real potency to them or its a stat damage type build. But then why not just go rogue? You need to be doing ki strikes to make it work out well and it precludes the best of them.

Weapon monks do get double procs on strike effects so that's something.

I can sort of see this for Drow, going hard into the shorts sword bonuses, but that's really more a flavor thing. It needs something else in the mix to make it work, something that makes short swords themselves more attractive, or the second tier allowing rapiers or kukri's into the mix.

It wouldn't make for a bad build and I've taken enhancements mostly for flavor but I think it needs some more jazz to make it exciting like some of the prestige enhancements are.

[Aerendil]

I think at this point its more of a flavor thing... perhaps good in mid levels where the weapon effects like banishing and smiting have some real potency to them or its a stat damage type build. But then why not just go rogue? You need to be doing ki strikes to make it work out well and it precludes the best of them.
Yep, exactly. Shortswords for *Monks* will be a filler for either the early levels when handwraps haven't come into their own, or later on if they haven't Devouts or metalline of PG handwraps but do have an equivalent piercer.

But for a *Rogue*? This is pure gold. Granted, you're limited to using SSs only, but that's a small price to pay for Wind stance haste and a self-25% blur. Hence my build idea of the Scorpion Ninja Rogue.


Weapon monks do get double procs on strike effects so that's something.
Yep, but so do handwraps. I constantly see double-procs when I hit a ki strike with handwraps.


I can sort of see this for Drow, going hard into the shorts sword bonuses, but that's really more a flavor thing. It needs something else in the mix to make it work, something that makes short swords themselves more attractive, or the second tier allowing rapiers or kukri's into the mix.
Yep, exactly. The Rogues will still have their SA bonus dice.
But for the pure Monks? Handwraps will always outshine shortswords unless they get super-uber ability in tier II or III (which I don't see happening).[/QUOTE]

[geoffhanna]

I was thinking Drow 13/6/1 FvS/Mnk/Rog-you could even possibly fit in the future Scorpion Wraith Pre with Ninja Spy.

I was thinking 12monk/8fvs: abundant step and 4th level divine spells.

That also gets the FvS +2 WIS bonus IIRC?

But, sadly, the last thing I need right now is yet one more alt. This one might have been pretty cool.

[Yaga_Nub]

I am going to make a Drow 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 Paladin and if I decide I don't need the Divine Grace then I'll LR to a 13 Monk/6 Ranger/1 Rogue.

Purely for favor. I'm not worried about UBAH DPS or whatever all you number crunching, min/max ghey boys worry about. The game is more interesting when it's a challenge.

[Calebro]

I'm just planning on swapping Light for Dark and rearranging a few AP on my monk7/rogue13, then if they make Touch of Death work on weapons as it originally did, possibly LR to monk9/rogue11.

*edit:
And I'm REALLY hoping that they do change that, because Dark Path m9/r11 would still have the same SA as my Light Path m7/r13 does now, and still have Crippling Strike and Improved Evasion, but would also have +1bab, more HP and ToD ;)