Monk Eladrin Puzzle Part 2.

[Daehawk]

Solved:

Monk Ninja Spy 1
Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of: Static Charge, Porous Soul, All-Consuming Flame or Winter's Touch
Benefit: You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain +2 Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain 1d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centred is increased by 1.
Special Ability: You can expend Ki to enter Shadow Form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial.

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

Be Sure to VOTE. Which puzzle do you want next? Ninja Spy II or Shintao Monk II. I'll post the results of these votes from the forums & MyDDO onto here. You can also post them onto Eladrin's MyDDO.


Votes for Next Puzzle
Shintao Monk : 2
Ninja Spy : 1


>.> Nevermind. Go to Eladrin's Post Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248240) to Vote. Punk :D :cool:

Worse than roaches if you ask me. (Monks, part two)
Poor Barrage. We were running an adventure together and camped at a rest shrine, and thought it would be safe not to leave a guard. When I woke up, he was full of shuriken and stab wounds. A rolled up note was left on his body, which read:


npol pkpl dvsb mtvi viuw ohyh nukz npol
qbui qhkp hylw efpi hsqm qlrq fqfi fnpo
lkvn rkko rqnw yqfp imme qgdq aqpg pgtu
bujd ejct jhsr vsyw wsyp doof qpuw njoh
gmbn gqty lqwh vwxs yglf hqhi kvaq vbsf
usbj pgfc vdvw iepx lcom oohu aqwc sfdp
otje gtgf suri mgmi rxmr vkru vuyq setb
oeus gcvv khpd woma iets qvbr wick ouxp
cbmb pegj lghp sziw mpir wobd pfic jopo
fetj zupg dndw xego ewmj brxz gtgc sphv
fxij ngup hdnl rkcs yqsz hrqh bgtq qfsd
foug cuvg udqg csyv teww lyhn kigp fsbu
jpox jgpe hqwh vihm wmrg uhdv gfda pofz
pvdb pgzr hqgn mxsi rxiv vkdg qyhq sncf
dpnj pikp ylvl fpie rhte uwld nnak otvc
tubo vkcn qlqm ewtc wleh rzid fgeq tupo
fgjw gmkd hqhi mxcs yjsg xvbr wtmk boee
sbxt jcfq zvdu syrh csyp lnhd enqc lcfd
pnjo ikpx lvle pier hmrw xevw cpvk bmux
fouz hkxg shuf irxq mwwg kdqf gfwg upjo
dpsq qtgc olwb xlmw efmp lwbf qwpv tbtb
ebsl oqxg

(In the forum posts and MyDDO comments discussing this, vote whether you want to see tier II of this one or Shintao Monk II next - whichever is winning at the time this is completely translated will be the next one I reveal!)

[sirgog]

Edit: Solved!


Monk Ninja Spy 1

Prereqs: Level six monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of static charge, porous soul, all-consuming flame or winter stouch benefit

You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain two Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain one d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centred is increased by 1.

You can expend Ki to enter Shadow Form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial.

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.






Edit - Solving in post 20, ignore stuff to there. Will be done in 20 min.


OK. A few thoughts.

1) 680 characters. Either it's about 150 words (pretty plausible) and one character in the cypher text is one in the real text, or if it's 2 to 1, it's closer to 75 words.

2) 680 = 17 x 5 x 2^3. May come in handy (this feels like a Vignere cypher). Am bashing it with an online Vignere cracker (17 isn't promising, but there's only a few factors of 680 that are plausible).

More as I figure it out.

[le_goat]

npol occurs twice

[sirgog]

Worse than roaches may well be a hint.

If you can think of something that's worse than roaches (or at least Eladrin might think it is...) and that is 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 17 or 20 letters long, let me know. (Mosquito doesn't work, neither do Monk or Monks).

[Oran_Lathor]

if you throw it in as a simple caesar cipher with a shift of one (ie Ms become Ns, Os become Ps, etc) you get the following:

MONK OJOK CURA LSUH UHTV NGXG MTJY MONK
PATH PGJO GXKV DEOH GRPL PKQP EPEH EMON
KJUM QJJN QPMV XPEO HLLD PFCP ZPOF OFST
ATIC DIBS IGRQ URXV VRXO CNNE POTV MING
FLAM FPSX KPVG UVWR XFKE GPGH JUZP UARE
TRAI OFEB UCUV HDOW KBNL NNGT ZPVB RECO
NSID FSFE RTQH LFLH QWLQ UJQT UTXP RDSA
NDTR FBUU JGOC VNLZ HDSR PUAQ VHBJ NTWO
BALA ODFI KFGO RYHV LOHQ VNAC OEHB INON
EDSI YTOF CMCV WDFN DVLI AQWY FSFB ROGU
EWHI MFTO GCMK QJBR XPRY GQPG AFSP PERC
ENTF BTUF TCPF BRXU SDVV KXGM JHFO ERAT
IONW IFOD GPVG UHGL VLQF TGCU FECZ ONEY
OUCA OFYQ GPFM LWRH QWHU UJCF PXGP RMBE
COMI OHJO XKUK EOHD QGSD TVKC MMZJ NSUB
STAN UJBM PKPL DVSB VKDG QYHC EFDP STON
EFIV FLJC GPGH LWBR XIRF WUAQ VSLJ ANDD
RAWS IBEP YUCT RXQG BRXO KMGC DMPB KBEC
OMIN HJOW KUKD OHDQ GLQV WDUV BOUJ ALTW
ENTY GJWF RGTE HQWP LVVF JCPE FEVF TOIN
CORP PSFB NKVA WKLV DELO KVAE PVOU SASA
DARK NPWF


Not really sure if this is a correct first step, or some sort of trick, haha.

[sirgog]

npol occurs twice

It occurs three times (twice as " npol " and once as "*npo l***").

All are in the first row - this was what made me think a Vignere cypher - also note than npol is monk advanced one letter through the alphabet.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Worse than roaches may well be a hint.

If you can think of something that's worse than roaches (or at least Eladrin might think it is...) and that is 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 17 or 20 letters long, let me know. (Mosquito doesn't work, neither do Monk or Monks).

I don't know how it would fit, but Rusties? They look kind of roachie and Barrage is WF.

[synkos]

if you throw it in as a simple caesar cipher with a shift of one (ie Ms become Ns, Os become Ps, etc) you get the following:

MONK OJOK CURA LSUH UHTV NGXG MTJY MONK
PATH PGJO GXKV DEOH GRPL PKQP EPEH EMON
KJUM QJJN QPMV XPEO HLLD PFCP ZPOF OFST
ATIC DIBS IGRQ URXV VRXO CNNE POTV MING
FLAM FPSX KPVG UVWR XFKE GPGH JUZP UARE
TRAI OFEB UCUV HDOW KBNL NNGT ZPVB RECO
NSID FSFE RTQH LFLH QWLQ UJQT UTXP RDSA
NDTR FBUU JGOC VNLZ HDSR PUAQ VHBJ NTWO
BALA ODFI KFGO RYHV LOHQ VNAC OEHB INON
EDSI YTOF CMCV WDFN DVLI AQWY FSFB ROGU
EWHI MFTO GCMK QJBR XPRY GQPG AFSP PERC
ENTF BTUF TCPF BRXU SDVV KXGM JHFO ERAT
IONW IFOD GPVG UHGL VLQF TGCU FECZ ONEY
OUCA OFYQ GPFM LWRH QWHU UJCF PXGP RMBE
COMI OHJO XKUK EOHD QGSD TVKC MMZJ NSUB
STAN UJBM PKPL DVSB VKDG QYHC EFDP STON
EFIV FLJC GPGH LWBR XIRF WUAQ VSLJ ANDD
RAWS IBEP YUCT RXQG BRXO KMGC DMPB KBEC
OMIN HJOW KUKD OHDQ GLQV WDUV BOUJ ALTW
ENTY GJWF RGTE HQWP LVVF JCPE FEVF TOIN
CORP PSFB NKVA WKLV DELO KVAE PVOU SASA
DARK NPWF


Not really sure if this is a correct first step, or some sort of trick, haha.


What I gathered by skimming is:

OMIN HJOW KUKD OHDQ GLQV WDUV BOUJ ALTW
ENTY GJWF RGTE HQWP LVVF JCPE FEVF TOIN

seems awfully like "natural twenty"
also mentiones rogue, flaming and balance if I'm not mistaken. Could be just my head messin with me tho :)

[Daehawk]

if you throw it in as a simple caesar cipher with a shift of one (ie Ms become Ns, Os become Ps, etc) you get the following:

MONK OJOK CURA LSUH UHTV NGXG MTJY MONK
PATH PGJO GXKV DEOH GRPL PKQP EPEH EMON
KJUM QJJN QPMV XPEO HLLD PFCP ZPOF OFST
ATIC DIBS IGRQ URXV VRXO CNNE POTV MING
FLAM FPSX KPVG UVWR XFKE GPGH JUZP UARE
TRAI OFEB UCUV HDOW KBNL NNGT ZPVB RECO
NSID FSFE RTQH LFLH QWLQ UJQT UTXP RDSA
NDTR FBUU JGOC VNLZ HDSR PUAQ VHBJ NTWO
BALA ODFI KFGO RYHV LOHQ VNAC OEHB INON
EDSI YTOF CMCV WDFN DVLI AQWY FSFB ROGU
EWHI MFTO GCMK QJBR XPRY GQPG AFSP PERC
ENTF BTUF TCPF BRXU SDVV KXGM JHFO ERAT
IONW IFOD GPVG UHGL VLQF TGCU FECZ ONEY
OUCA OFYQ GPFM LWRH QWHU UJCF PXGP RMBE
COMI OHJO XKUK EOHD QGSD TVKC MMZJ NSUB
STAN UJBM PKPL DVSB VKDG QYHC EFDP STON
EFIV FLJC GPGH LWBR XIRF WUAQ VSLJ ANDD
RAWS IBEP YUCT RXQG BRXO KMGC DMPB KBEC
OMIN HJOW KUKD OHDQ GLQV WDUV BOUJ ALTW
ENTY GJWF RGTE HQWP LVVF JCPE FEVF TOIN
CORP PSFB NKVA WKLV DELO KVAE PVOU SASA
DARK NPWF


Not really sure if this is a correct first step, or some sort of trick, haha.

I see Dark and Monk in there from yours. So if that's anywhere close I guess Ninja Spy might come out with Shintao. We'll see when we finish. I'll start working on what I can come up with.

[Aspenor]

From the flavor text alone I assume it's the Ninja Spy.

[Oran_Lathor]

OKay, it's a series of Caesar ciphers.

npol becomes 'monk' with a shift of 1.

'pkpl' becomes 'ninj' with a shift of 2.

'dvsb' is 'a spy' with a shift of 3.

presumably the pattern continues; this is as far as i've gotten.

Monk Ninja Spy

[le_goat]

seems like dark monk path, ninja?

beat me to it

[Saaluta]

Worse than roaches may well be a hint.

If you can think of something that's worse than roaches (or at least Eladrin might think it is...) and that is 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 17 or 20 letters long, let me know. (Mosquito doesn't work, neither do Monk or Monks).

scorpion(8)--from the only quest I can think of with monks atm... and those things are worse than roaches imo :)

Saal :)

[sirgog]

Here's my new thoughts.

This is (up to) eight Ceaser cyphers, but probably four of them. The first and last columns are +25 as you've done. Perhaps columns 2 and 7 are the same as each other, then 3 and 6, then 4 and 5.

Am off to work on it.



if you throw it in as a simple caesar cipher with a shift of one (ie Ms become Ns, Os become Ps, etc) you get the following:

MONK OJOK CURA LSUH UHTV NGXG MTJY MONK
PATH PGJO GXKV DEOH GRPL PKQP EPEH EMON
KJUM QJJN QPMV XPEO HLLD PFCP ZPOF OFST
ATIC DIBS IGRQ URXV VRXO CNNE POTV MING
FLAM FPSX KPVG UVWR XFKE GPGH JUZP UARE
TRAI OFEB UCUV HDOW KBNL NNGT ZPVB RECO
NSID FSFE RTQH LFLH QWLQ UJQT UTXP RDSA
NDTR FBUU JGOC VNLZ HDSR PUAQ VHBJ NTWO
BALA ODFI KFGO RYHV LOHQ VNAC OEHB INON
EDSI YTOF CMCV WDFN DVLI AQWY FSFB ROGU
EWHI MFTO GCMK QJBR XPRY GQPG AFSP PERC
ENTF BTUF TCPF BRXU SDVV KXGM JHFO ERAT
IONW IFOD GPVG UHGL VLQF TGCU FECZ ONEY
OUCA OFYQ GPFM LWRH QWHU UJCF PXGP RMBE
COMI OHJO XKUK EOHD QGSD TVKC MMZJ NSUB
STAN UJBM PKPL DVSB VKDG QYHC EFDP STON
EFIV FLJC GPGH LWBR XIRF WUAQ VSLJ ANDD
RAWS IBEP YUCT RXQG BRXO KMGC DMPB KBEC
OMIN HJOW KUKD OHDQ GLQV WDUV BOUJ ALTW
ENTY GJWF RGTE HQWP LVVF JCPE FEVF TOIN
CORP PSFB NKVA WKLV DELO KVAE PVOU SASA
DARK NPWF


Not really sure if this is a correct first step, or some sort of trick, haha.

[Gol]

npol pkpl dvsb mtvi viuw ohyh nukz npol
npol => monk (1 shift left)
pkpl => ninj (2 shifts left)
dvsb => aspy (3 shifts left)
mtvi => ipre (4 shifts left)
viuw => reqs (4 shifts left)
ohyh => leve (3 shifts left)
nukz => lsix (2 shifts left)
npol => monk (1 shift left)

Monk Ninja Spy I
Prereqs: Level Six Monk

you guys run with it, I'm too busy at work

[Trillea]

The NPWF at the end is probably MOVE

[Oran_Lathor]

Yep, that's it... I've only gotten as far as "monk ninja spy I prereqs" and my methodology is time-consuming so I'll have to leave it to the master code breakers from here :)

[sirgog]

OKay, it's a series of Caesar ciphers.

npol becomes 'monk' with a shift of 1.

'pkpl' becomes 'ninj' with a shift of 2.

'dvsb' is 'a spy' with a shift of 3.

presumably the pattern continues; this is as far as i've gotten.

Monk Ninja Spy

It does.

-1/-2/-3/-4/-4 gets Monk Ninj aSpy IPre Reqs.

Trying to continue this.

Then ' Leve Lsix Monk' going -3/-2/-1.

We are onto something.

[Daehawk]

OKay, it's a series of Caesar ciphers.

npol becomes 'monk' with a shift of 1.

'pkpl' becomes 'ninj' with a shift of 2.

'dvsb' is 'a spy' with a shift of 3.

presumably the pattern continues; this is as far as i've gotten.

Monk Ninja Spy

Yeah it's Ninja spy, and this is correct, I've got some of it done will take a moment, next line has path ofin evit able domi

[sirgog]

Done!

Note: It's not natur"al twenty", it's insubstanti"al twenty five".

Monk Ninja Spy 1

Prereqs: Level six monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of static charge, porous soul, all-consuming flame or winter stouch benefit

You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain two Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain one d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centred is increased by 1.

You can expend Ki to enter Shadow Form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial.

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

[le_goat]

seems apattern is showing at every 18th 4 letter word


looks like hafling dark monks ftw!
this is sounding out to be the sweetest pre in a while

[Aerendil]

Shortswords as ki weapons?? Zomg.

6 Monk just replaced 6 Ranger in the 13 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 1 Fighter split.

Oh, I hate to see the AH shortsword buyouts tonight.

[Daehawk]

Will have it inside 20 minutes.

Monk Ninja Spy 1

Prereqs: Level six monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of static charge, porous soul, all-consuming flame or winter stouch benefit

You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain two Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain one d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation



(more coming)

Yeah you'll have it done soon, I was taking awhile to type up the different shifts into notepad. I'll just wait for yours to finish then post it into the main. incorporeal ability
seems pretty cool. Might redo my current monk over to darkside.

[sirgog]

And solved! Check post 20.

[Eladrin]

Well, that was quick. :)

[dimster28]

because of this, will we see alot more of monks in shroud to prepare their gs shortsword? lol

[Aspenor]

Well, that was quick. :)

ciphernoob!:eek:

[Daehawk]

I'm going to vote for Shintao Monk II for the next puzzle, just to see if the second stage of it is worth the cost of Tier I.

Eladrin are these releases going to be full Tier I - III or just I - II.

[Aerendil]

Eladrin, will the sneak attack bonuses (damage and movement) stack with Rogue (and possibly Scorpion Wraith if it offers it?) levels?

[sirgog]

Well, that was quick. :)

Yep. You can be harder on us next time, we do have the resources of the internet.

http://www.richkni.co.uk/php/crypta/

[Propane]

Any thoughs of allowing hand axes to be a center weapon... they can use them already...

[Eladrin]

Since this got solved so quickly, I've put up a poll here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248240) with more options. Go vote there.

[Eladrin]

The sneak attack dice and movement speed increases should stack with other sources of them.

Ninja Spy, Shintao Monk, and Radiant Servant are all two tiers for Update 5.

[asphodeli]

Looks like this would go nicely with Fighter Kensai :D

[Dylos_Moon]

Wait a second...

If an enhancement is adding shortswords as ki weapons, does that mean Whirling Steel Strike will be in U5!?!?!

[lutherl]

Shortswords you say? I have a drow monk who will be ecstatic to hear that...

[Daehawk]

The sneak attack dice and movement speed increases should stack with other sources of them.

Ninja Spy, Shintao Monk, and Radiant Servant are all two tiers for Update 5.

Ah...only two tiers...that makes me sad. Hopefully Shintao II will have Cold Iron + Silver than ;)

[sirgog]

The sneak attack dice and movement speed increases should stack with other sources of them.

Ninja Spy, Shintao Monk, and Radiant Servant are all two tiers for Update 5.

Radiant Servant is something I'm looking forward to.

My heavily melee-specced Cleric is going to take it, and looks forward to having more healing throughput than pre-Radiant Servant Healbot Clr20's do - while still being able to lay out the smackdown in melee.


Is it just those three we can expect, or are you working on more PrE's for the update?

[Zaodan]

Monk Ninja Spy 1

Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of: Static Charge, Porous Soul, All-Consuming Flame or Winter's Touch

Benefit: You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain +2 Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain 1d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centred is increased by 1.

You can expend Ki to enter Shadow Form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial.

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.


Format fixes.

[Cyr]

Initial thoughts on the PrE...

Pre-Regs are a lot better then shintao. Although dodge will be a tough pill to swallow for dark side strength based monks (lots of those areound atm).

Shortsword for the path that pretty much has to use their fists...something does not compute here. Note, this exact thing was why I was pushing for ki weapons as a feat and not an add on to a PrE. So you can go dark side splash monk and have short swords, but much worse splash ki abilities then light side. Or you can go full dark side and ignore this benefit.

Incorporeal miss chance (if fixed to stack with other miss chances)...now that sounds very worthwhile. Guess it all depends on how it works. If it dispears on an attack it is pretty meh, if it is timed for 15s+ then it will be used and interesting.

3.5 extra sneak attack damage...on a dark monk. That is nice. To bad it's not for light side monks though who are more likely not to have agro due to not having a 500 point spike damage attack.

All in all sounds like it could be worthwhile. The pre-reqs are not crippling although they certainly do have a cost. The benefits are decent. This again looks like an underpowered PrE compared to the other full lines. Have to wonder what is in store for tier 2/3 for this one to make the initial cost a no brainer (as almost every other PrE in game atm is).

[rest]

OMFG TIME TO STOCK UP ON SHORTSWORDS!!


I was hoping for longswords, but I'll take a piercing weapon that counts you as centered.

[Memnir]

I'm not seeing anything here that will make me want to take it - as swapping out short swords for handwraps to use Touch of Death would be extremely annoying and unwieldy. And to me, the use of short swords is the only interesting feature, but is negated (imho) by making the best part of being Dark Path hard/impractical to use. Yeah, the Sneak Attack damage is okay - but really, is that worth making Touch of Death harder to use?

Incorporeality is tempting, but again... I don't see it as tempting enough unless it stacks with Blur. Since it's an Invisibility thing - does attacking turn it off?


Here's hoping that this is just a lame tier-one to this PrE.

[Zaodan]

OMFG TIME TO STOCK UP ON SHORTSWORDS!!


Yeah, I know that I'll be selling off any good shortswords I find to all the idiots that think this PrE is good!
:D

[Aerendil]

Yeah, I know that I'll be selling off any good shortswords I find to all the idiots that think this PrE is good!
:D

It IS good. Just sadly not for the pure Dark monks.

But for the Monk splashes on other builds (Rogue or even Fighter-Kensai) it's pretty sweet.
They just got the ability to have a free 25% personal Blur/Displacement, presuming the effect doesn't break upon combat.

*edit* - of course, nothing says the Dark Monks *have* to use shortswords now.
You can still go 100% handwraps. You just have an extra weapon to choose from if you haven't Devouts but do have min2 or silver/holy shortswords and want to fight Harry. You could look at it that way, I suppose.

And you get your own Blur, which is *better* than what the Light Path gets (25% as opposed to 20%).

[Crazyfruit]

This looks pretty interesting. My monk'll be taking it even though I have to waste AP in jump :)

It's pretty obvious the shadow effect will break when you hit something guys, it also turns you invisible.

For you math nuts, at which level does unarmed become better than dual wielding shortswords?

[Aerendil]

It's pretty obvious the shadow effect will break when you hit something guys, it also turns you invisible.

Yeah, that's the last thing to find out at this point, really. And it's a very odd combination at that.
If you're invisible, you don't need Blur as enemies can't see you.
If you're invisible and attack, generally the buff is wiped. So.... does the Blur portion stick?
Will it be implemented in a similar manner to Aid (double buff icons) and just because one element disappears, the other may stay?

[SquelchHU]

This looks pretty interesting. My monk'll be taking it even though I have to waste AP in jump :)

It's pretty obvious the shadow effect will break when you hit something guys, it also turns you invisible.

For you math nuts, at which level does unarmed become better than dual wielding shortswords?

Well, unarmed is faster attack speed. So it doesn't take very long at all. I'm not feeling like running the numbers though.

[Dylos_Moon]

For you math nuts, at which level does unarmed become better than dual wielding shortswords?

No math required, the level is 9. Because at level 9 you can get a 500 point strike that doesn't work with shortswords.

However if you have a minimum level 8 w/p shortsword touch of death may not be as big a deal.

[Timjc86]

It looks like the devs may succeed in making monk 6 just as popular of a splash as monk 2. We'll see.

[rest]

Yeah, I know that I'll be selling off any good shortswords I find to all the idiots that think this PrE is good!
:D

I'm not a true min/maxer so I'll happily use short swords on a dark monk. Hell I have a tempest monk mutt that uses kamas. Can't get much more gimped than he is :p

[Gol]

New FotM build:
Drow Monk 6 / Ranger 6 (plus whatever)

[rest]

New FotM build:
Drow Monk 6 / Ranger 6 (plus whatever)


I was thinking 14/6 Pally/Monk Drow short sword user with moderate-high CHA.

Zeal + wind stance with some divine might 3. Might not be as good as wind stance + tempest but still serviceable.

[zealous]

New FotM build:
Drow Monk 6 / Ranger 6 (plus whatever)
Unarmed will still be faster attack speed(~2-3%) and ToD + base damage will likely be in excess of what you'll achieve with SS, possibly even against light DR, and if you add ToD...

[Aerendil]

New FotM build:
Drow Monk 6 / Ranger 6 (plus whatever)

Nah. I'm more inclined to put it on a Ravager build instead of Ranger 6 IMO (as I mentioned above).

Ravagers splashed Ranger 6 for 2 free AC (tempest) and tempest melee haste (+10%).
You now get the same from Monk 6 (centered with shortswords = +2 AC at lvl 6; wind stance = +15% haste).

Granted, there are other bonuses from each class to factor in (Favored enemies, access to heal wands, TWF feats and archery feats for free, etc. vs. animal paths, immunity to disease, tier 2 elemental strikes, extra d6 SA dmg, etc.), but all things considered I'd say the Ravager just got a potential makeover.
Especially as Tempest AC doesn't stack with Shield clickies, but the Monk centered AC does.

[Drakos]

Yeah, I know that I'll be selling off any good shortswords I find to all the idiots that think this PrE is good!
:D
Gotta wounder how this will interact with the Sunblade?

[Arkat]

Dual Radiance II Shortswords FTW assuming all three levels of the PrE give you an additional +1d6 (for a total of +3d6) of Sneak Attack damage.

[Daehawk]

Dual Radiance II Shortswords FTW assuming all three levels of the PrE give you an additional +1d6 (for a total of +3d6) of Sneak Attack damage.

Yeah, too bad only up to Tier II of Ninja, Shintao, and Radiant will be released with U5. Who knows when Tier III's for them will be.

[Maegin]

All this means nothing, untill we can get ahold of some ninja all black outfits :D

[Arkat]

All this means nothing, untill we can get ahold of some Real Ultimate Power (http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm)!! :D

Fixed it for you!

[Angelus_dead]

Monk Ninja Spy 1
Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Inevitable Dominion, Dodge, Monk Jump II, Monk Tumble II, and any one of: Static Charge, Porous Soul, All-Consuming Flame or Winter's Touch
Benefit: You are trained as a stealthy killer. You are considered proficinent in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain +2 Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain 1d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centred is increased by 1.
Special Ability: You can expend Ki to enter Shadow Form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial.

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.
1. The Sneak Attack, skill boosts, sneaking speed, and centered shortswords are all as predicted. Unfortunately, the Inevitable Dominion requirement is also as predicted.

2. The centered shortswords are a cool feature, but as others have pointed out, they'll mostly be a DPS-lowering trap (even for a Drow). At low level they'll be ineffective because you don't have ITWF yet, and at high level they'll be unusuable because they exclude Touch of Death. And unlike kama, shortswords can't vorpal. There will still be certain advantages: if the monster is a rhaskasa with high DR/Pierce, if you really want wounding+puncturing, if you find a cool Holy Burst Silver Shortsword of Greater Evil, or other neat weapon.

2b. I can't come up with a useful multiclass of Monk6/FVS14 to utilize shortsword synergy. Forgoing 6 caster levels takes too much away from the FVS, especially since the monk levels can't provide Aligning the Heavens.

3. The shadow form was fairly predictable, although I had guessed the incorporeality would be a tier 3 benefit. Because the writeup doesn't mention duration, cooldown, or expiration it is hard to guess how powerful the effect will be. Potentially it could be an amazing boost to tanking durability, or maybe it's nothing more than an Invisibility variant which drops with one attack.

4. The prereq cost is fairly low, as its only 1 feat and 6 AP, because any Inevitable Dominion will want all of the 10% energy debuffs eventually.

5. I see no reason for this specialty to be restricted to Inevitable Dominion. If it also worked for Harmonious Balance then the centered shortswords could be more of a benefit, because that character would not have Touch of Death. (My previous suggestion was that Inevitable Dominion be just one possible prereq feat alongside Stealthy and Sneak Attack)

[Riggs]

Any thoughs of allowing hand axes to be a center weapon... they can use them already...

And daggers....

[Geonis]

Pretty disappointed.

Was hoping for something that would have some synergy with my Acrobat2/Monk6.

Guess I can quit holding my breath.....:eek:

[Yaga_Nub]

Gotta wounder how this will interact with the Sunblade?

Should work fine. Sunblade is a short sword.

Drow Ninja Rangers FTW!

[Angelus_dead]

Was hoping for something that would have some synergy with my Acrobat2/Monk6.
It would make sense for Ninja Spy to grant explicit bonuses for someone with Rogue levels, such as +1 daily uses of Uncanny Dodge or Action Boosts. (In the same way that Warchanter grants +1 rage uses as a bonus for having Barbarian levels)

[Coldin]

I could see an Assassin II / Ninja Spy I build working out pretty well.

[Delacroix21]

Unless Touch of Death becomes useable with weapons (such as shortswords) then this will be a USELESS PrE, except for splash builds.

[Cyr]

I could see an Assassin II / Ninja Spy I build working out pretty well.

As opposed to a assassin 2/tempest 1/monk level 2? 10% attack speed, rapier use assuming finesse, many shot, ram's might, and two FE's. Compared to 5% attack speed, short sword use, elemental strikes, 1-2 AC, and +1d6 sneak attack damage.

I could see it. Can't really say as I'm impressed with it, but I could see it.

[Geonis]

It would make sense for Ninja Spy to grant explicit bonuses for someone with Rogue levels, such as +1 daily uses of Uncanny Dodge or Action Boosts. (In the same way that Warchanter grants +1 rage uses as a bonus for having Barbarian levels)

^ Makes complete sense to me.

Pretty sad that as a Rogue/Monk, I would rather have my healing ki finisher than this PrE.....

PS - Could we get some specifics on the "Shadow Fade" ?

[Riggs]

Unless 'ki weapons' allows monks to use fist only abilities and strikes with their ki weapons nothing is ever going to be as good as fists period.

The fact that monks dont even get to use daggers and handaxes as centered weapons despite being proficient with them means that other than vorpals, there is really no reason (other than say a +4 insight kama), for a monk to have a weapon in their hand ever.

Adding in centered weapons like shortswords might benefit split classes that wont be using fists anyway - but it does zero for full monks, and as said is a dps trap. Use them, get less dps - so why take a Pre that LOWERS a monks dps?

[TreknaQudane]

As opposed to a assassin 2/tempest 1/monk level 2? 10% attack speed, rapier use assuming finesse, many shot, ram's might, and two FE's. Compared to 5% attack speed, short sword use, elemental strikes, 1-2 AC, and +1d6 sneak attack damage.

I could see it. Can't really say as I'm impressed with it, but I could see it.

Depending on Ninja 2 is, what I would do is 12 Monk/6 Rogue/2 X

Or go the crazy route and do 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 X(rogue?) and get the tempest bonus for shortswords with the 7.5% bonus from using shortswords in wind stance (and rogue haste boost) ... You'll attack REALLY fast for 30 seconds at a time.

[rest]

Use them, get less dps - so why take a Pre that LOWERS a monks dps?

For the fun factor? :confused:

[Eladrin]

Adding in centered weapons like shortswords might benefit split classes that wont be using fists anyway - but it does zero for full monks, and as said is a dps trap. Use them, get less dps - so why take a Pre that LOWERS a monks dps?
The sneak attack dice you gain from the Ninja Spy line do also apply to your unarmed attacks.

[TreknaQudane]

For the fun factor? :confused:

Not to mention at lower levels it'll probably be easier finding shortswords that can bypass DR and handwraps

[ArichValtrahn]

Is it just me or does the shortsword thing look like the dev solution to greensteel handwraps?

[Coldin]

As opposed to a assassin 2/tempest 1/monk level 2? 10% attack speed, rapier use assuming finesse, many shot, ram's might, and two FE's. Compared to 5% attack speed, short sword use, elemental strikes, 1-2 AC, and +1d6 sneak attack damage.

I could see it. Can't really say as I'm impressed with it, but I could see it.

Make it 8 monk, and you get wholeness of body too.

[Visty]

The sneak attack dice you gain from the Ninja Spy line do also apply to your unarmed attacks.

thats not what he is concerned about

its that touch of death doesnt work with weapons and thus taking the ninja spy to use shortswords lowers damageoutput as the 500dmg hit goes away. not to mention that SSs have lower damage then an unarmed lvl20 monk anyway + the slower attack speed of the swords

[Borror0]

[...] - but really, is that worth making Touch of Death harder to use?
Maybe their intent for that ability is to leave unarmed the preferred weapon choice, because it's an unique feature of the class, while leaving shortsword for multiclassing opportunities. Or maybe they want to intent shortsword to be an appealing alternative to unarmed through tier II and III.

Since Eladrin rarely shares their design goals with us, it's hard to tell what they intend.

It's not like they couldn't allow monks to use Touch of Death when using monk weapons if they wanted. PnP monks can use all use all their monk abilities for as long as they are unarmed or using monk weapons so there is really nothing stopping them.

Here's hoping that this is just a lame tier-one to this PrE.
Worse case scenario, it opens up a few interesting multiclass options so it's not all lost.

[Cyr]

Depending on Ninja 2 is, what I would do is 12 Monk/6 Rogue/2 X

Or go the crazy route and do 12 Monk/6 Ranger/2 X(rogue?) and get the tempest bonus for shortswords with the 7.5% bonus from using shortswords in wind stance (and rogue haste boost) ... You'll attack REALLY fast for 30 seconds at a time.

That could be good if tier 2 is really compelling with short swords. Otherwise, dps wise I just can not see an argument that puts a mostly dark side monk using anything except handwraps. The real game changer here of course would be if tier 2 let you use monk unarmed attacks with any centered weapon OR gave any centered weapon base damage boosts to match those of unarmed.

[TreknaQudane]

Any thoughs of allowing hand axes to be a center weapon... they can use them already...


And daggers....

They shouldn't be able to use them.

Flurry of Blows explicitly limits what weapons can be used... Handaxes and Daggers are not in that list.

We should see some named Daggers and Handaxes that are ki weapons maybe... but not all of them (shocked that Axe of the Unseen Blow isn't one)

[Angelus_dead]

I could see an Assassin II / Ninja Spy I build working out pretty well.
I haven't seen any Assassin II build that worked adequately except for Assassin II / Assassin III (and even that stopped in Epic)

[TreknaQudane]

That could be good if tier 2 is really compelling with short swords. Otherwise, dps wise I just can not see an argument that puts a mostly dark side monk using anything except handwraps. The real game changer here of course would be if tier 2 let you use monk unarmed attacks with any centered weapon OR gave any centered weapon base damage boosts to match those of unarmed.

Depends if Touch of Death every time it's called up is worth more than the increased sneak attack damage and usage of Earth Strikes with a weapon with a much better crit range than handwraps.

As is.. I think that Ninja is looking to be good at low levels (below 14) when a monk may not have the collection of items needed to break DR or do massive damage.

Once you can get ToD stuff, yeah, it's not comparable... but thats more or less near 18/20 ..

[Potvin]

All this means nothing, untill we can get ahold of some ninja all black outfits :D

This.


If we can dye our hair, why the heck can we not dye our robes?

[Cyr]

Worse case scenario, it opens up a few interesting multiclass options so it's not all lost.

/shrug

The best arguements I see for this PrE have nothing to do with speciality builds utilizing it and everything to do with just taking the extra 3.5 sneak attack damage. It's cheaper then the last tier of the halfling sneak attack and I know lots of monks who run that now.

[Siskel]

Maybe Tier II or III will allow unarmed attacks to be used with your short sword. My guess is that you will get more sneak attack damage/to-hit.

[Angelus_dead]

to me, the use of short swords is the only interesting feature
The centered shortswords should only be a minor sideshow to the main benefit of the specialty, whatever that turns out to be. It will increase flexibility when you need to use a weapon, and also give a small critical advantage over kama. Prehaps Eladrin should have written the specialty benefits in a different order, with shortswords at the end so as to not give the impression they were important.

It is a mistake to characterize this as "making Touch of Death harder to use"... a Ninja monk would only use shortswords at (non-zombie) times when a regular monk would be using kama, meaning TOD is already off the table.

[maddmatt70]

/shrug

The best arguements I see for this PrE have nothing to do with speciality builds utilizing it and everything to do with just taking the extra 3.5 sneak attack damage. It's cheaper then the last tier of the halfling sneak attack and I know lots of monks who run that now.

For those of us hoping for some more multi-class options other then 12 fighter, 6 ranger, or rogue level splashes neither of these three pre deliver at least at the 1st tier. The main reason to take this 1st tier is if you are a monk for the extra d6 SA damage with an invisiblity/incorpeal clicky in essence for soloing.

[Aerendil]

The centered shortswords should only be a minor sideshow to the main benefit of the specialty, whatever that turns out to be. It will increase flexibility when you need to use a weapon, and also give a small critical advantage over kama. Prehaps Eladrin should have written the specialty benefits in a different order, with shortswords at the end so as to not give the impression they were important.

It is a mistake to characterize this as "making Touch of Death harder to use"... a Ninja monk would only use shortswords at (non-zombie) times when a regular monk would be using kama, meaning TOD is already off the table.

Exactly.
Everyone's quite hung up on the SS-centering thing.
Nothing is forcing you to use them! But hey, you just got a free extra weapon to play with for those times when handwraps aren't the best option (such as vs. Harry when you don't have Devouts, but *do* have a silver of pure good swordshort or 2).

The shortsword centering thing seems more of a bonus for splashes so they can use the stances, personally.

[Calebro]

As I sdaid in another thread, I'm excited about it for my non-Q-staff 13 rogue / 7 monk. He'll have to buddy up with Vader and go over to the darkside, but at least now he'll have a mediocre weapon choice to stay centered.

Don't even care about tier2 at the moment. Tier1 makes me happy for that reason.

[Angelus_dead]

Costs and benefits of assumed Ninja tier 3.

AP cost: 6 for prereq + 8 for spec = 14
Feat cost: 1 (dodge)

Benefit: Probably at least 3d6 Sneak attack, or ~11 more damage in a group situation. Is that worth 1 feat and 14 AP? By comparison, Halflings typically spend 12 AP for +6 Sneak damage (and +3 attack), and some of them go up to 20 AP for +8 damage/+4 attack.

Plus of course Ninja will include some other bonuses with at least minimal use.

[Calebro]

Oh, and free invis? Yes please!
Passive ki so I can STAY that way? YES PLEASE!

[Angelus_dead]

Passive ki so I can STAY that way? YES PLEASE!
Yes, I noticed that part before but didn't mention it. Does this mean that a level 6 Ninja monk in sneak stance will have the same passive Ki generation as comes from the level 20 capstone?

And that raises an interesting question: Will casting the Invisibility Ki effect bring you out of sneak stance?

[Calebro]

And that raises an interesting question: Will casting the Invisibility Ki effect bring you out of sneak stance?

I would have to guess that it does, but if you simply sneak again immediately it shouldn't be a problem should it?

[SolarDawning]

A couple of questions Eladrin, if you're still peeking in here. =)

1: The passive ki generation - the wording on that is a little unclear. Does it apply all the time, or only when the Ninja Spy is in stealth mode?

2: When using Shadow Fade, what is the cooldown timer, duration, and does the Incorporeal effect also end when making an attack? If so, what's the point of adding incorporeality to an invisibility effect?

3: Any chance of making Touch of Death work with shortswords?

[Angelus_dead]

3: Any chance of making Touch of Death work with shortswords?
And note that pursuant to the D&D rules, effects like Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm can be delivered with a kick, meaning those special attacks can be used even by a monk who has both hands full with weapons.

[Aerendil]

And note that pursuant to the D&D rules, effects like Stunning Fist or Quivering Palm can be delivered with a kick, meaning those special attacks can be used even by a monk who has both hands full with weapons.

Yes, well, DDO threw out D&D rules when it created "ki" and allowed Monks to use Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm as often as they wanted (ki permitting of course). I won't get into greensteel weaponry, dark path monks, +4 stat tomes, and so on :p

So I wouldn't hold my breath on that one :)

[Aspenor]

Yes, well, DDO threw out D&D rules when it created "ki" and allowed Monks to use Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm as often as they wanted (ki permitting of course). I won't get into greensteel weaponry, dark path monks, +4 stat tomes, and so on :p

So I wouldn't hold my breath on that one :)

ummmmm pnp stat tomes go all the way to +5...just saying

[Calebro]

Yes, well, DDO threw out D&D rules when it created "ki" and allowed Monks to use Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm as often as they wanted (ki permitting of course). I won't get into greensteel weaponry, dark path monks, +4 stat tomes, and so on :p

So I wouldn't hold my breath on that one :)

And ki is indeed in DnD 3.5 in the ninja class from the Complete series (Adventurer maybe?), it's just a slightly different beast there.

[Aerendil]

Not sure about you, but I've never seen one in my gaming days Asp :) Maybe they're a 4th ed. thing? Dunno, I've only played 2nd ed. / 3.0/3.5 ed., and to the best of my knowledge DDO was created using 3.0 rules.

But face it, this game has deviated VERY far from certain base PnP D&D rules. It's incredibly munchkin.
And as far as Monks go, the DDO monk is *nothing* like the PnP one - which was my point, essentially. You can't compare the two using "core" arguments. DDO's monk is a whole new creature.

[Quijonsith]

3.0/3.5 dungeon master's guide has stat tomes up to +5

The passive Ki generation for ninja spy means you can sneak and scout out a specific target, generate enough Ki on the way, and strike them down with touch of death. This is actually how I played for a while on my light monk with quivering palm and max hide/move silently.

[Cyr]

Not sure about you, but I've never seen one in my gaming days Asp :) Maybe they're a 4th ed. thing? Dunno, I've only played 2nd ed. / 3.0/3.5 ed., and to the best of my knowledge DDO was created using 3.0 rules.


You could just open up an old DMG and find those tomes. Some DM's are very skimpy when it comes to treasure. This leads to lots of complaints on these forums about 'monty hall' in game when their pnp experience does not sync up with what they see online. Not suprisingingly not all pnp experiences are the same. I would go so far as to say pnp experiences are fairly useless when talking about DDO. The only relevant thing from pnp is what the actual rules were and then only insofar as to provide a game that 'feels' like pnp as much as possible while still being a good online game.

[Aspenor]

Not sure about you, but I've never seen one in my gaming days Asp :) Maybe they're a 4th ed. thing? Dunno, I've only played 2nd ed. / 3.0/3.5 ed., and to the best of my knowledge DDO was created using 3.0 rules.

But face it, this game has deviated VERY far from certain base PnP D&D rules. It's incredibly munchkin.
And as far as Monks go, the DDO monk is *nothing* like the PnP one - which was my point, essentially. You can't compare the two using "core" arguments. DDO's monk is a whole new creature.

You haven't read the 3.5 DMG then?

Heck, for a level 20 character they aren't really even all *that* expensive, especially to somebody that only is really worried about boosting their casting stat. It's 137,500 gp out of the 760,000 gp your character is expected to have at that level. Throw in a +6 main stat item and you still have only hit less than 1/4 your total wealth.

[Calebro]

3.0/3.5 dungeon master's guide has stat tomes up to +5

The passive Ki generation for ninja spy means you can sneak and scout out a specific target, generate enough Ki on the way, and strike them down with touch of death. This is actually how I played for a while on my light monk with quivering palm and max hide/move silently.

We'll have to wait to see for sure, but I highly doubt this will work very well.
I'm assuming that the passive Ki generated will hold to the same standards as normal Ki diminishing over time. Gaining 1 passive Ki, while fighting off the effects of having more than your base (which will lower your slowly raising Ki) would mean that this type of tactic will only really work for very high level Monks, if at all.

How many Monks under 17th or 18th level can say that they have a high enough Concentration score that holding 50 Ki doesn't IMMEDIATELY drop down to 46, then 42, etc?

I understand what you were getting at, but for a non-capped Monk this just won't work well IMO. But as I said, we'll have to wait and see.... I just wouldn't get my hopes up on this strategy if I were you.

*edit:
At least not when the mobs have so few HP that ToD will take them doewn outright. Soften them up? Sure. Drop them? You're not likely to have the Concentration score to hold that much Ki when ToD will drop them....

[DagazUlf]

Often in PnP the statistics for the ninja-to are identical to the standard short sword. My guess is that is a big part of the reasoning there.

[Quijonsith]

We'll have to wait to see for sure, but I highly doubt this will work very well.
I'm assuming that the passive Ki generated will hold to the same standards as normal Ki diminishing over time. Gaining 1 passive Ki, while fighting off the effects of having more than your base (which will lower your slowly raising Ki) would mean that this type of tactic will only really work for very high level Monks, if at all.

How many Monks under 17th or 18th level can say that they have a high enough Concentration score that holding 50 Ki doesn't IMMEDIATELY drop down to 46, then 42, etc?

I understand what you were getting at, but for a non-capped Monk this just won't work well IMO. But as I said, we'll have to wait and see.... I just wouldn't get my hopes up on this strategy if I were you.

*edit:
At least not when the mobs have so few HP that ToD will take them doewn outright. Soften them up? Sure. Drop them? You're not likely to have the Concentration score to hold that much Ki when ToD will drop them....

Yeah after I posted I thought about the base Ki issue, you're right about that. Here's a switch of the tactic:

+1 passive Ki generation means you can hold up to double your concentration score without losing any. So if you concentration is 25 you can store as much as 50 with that +1 ki gen. Then, assuming you have to use the stealth to activate the ki generation, you fight and bank the Ki so you can go stealth and still store 50 Ki, then you can lead off the next fight with ToD. If the fight is big enough you can regain your Ki and do it again.

If that +1 passive Ki gen stacks with the monk capstone you'll be able to store 3x your concentration at 20 without losing any between fights while sneaking, and generate up to 2x your concentration passively.

[Ranmaru2]

Eladrin are there going to be any newer named monk handwraps that have metalline and/or an alchemical metal on them and pure good/holy or something coming to higher level content instead of pigeon holing monks to using +2 metalline pure good handwraps from a quest 10 levels lower than the content they need the better handwraps for? Or is there going to be an adjustment to the min level for the metalline enchantment on handwraps, as currently, +4 metalline = lvl 16 versus a +4 metalline sword which is about level 10. That's a +6 level differential with no real meaning as to why it is the case.

[ClashM]

Well Ninja Spy and Shintao Monk look interesting but how is Henshin Mystic coming along? Seeing how the dark side prestige line is going to be something like a rogue, all sneaky like, I'm hoping that Henshin is going to be available to light or dark and a major damage dealer. =)

Edit: Oh and I know this has been asked a thousand times and will probably be asked a thousand more but where's our greensteel weave handwraps?! I know the coding is messed up but trying to keep up with the fighters and barbarians with their greensteel weapons is just ridiculous...

[Visty]

Well Ninja Spy and Shintao Monk look interesting but how is Henshin Mystic coming along? Seeing how the dark side prestige line is going to be something like a rogue, all sneaky like, I'm hoping that Henshin is going to be available to light or dark and a major damage dealer. =)

henshin will prolly add elemental damage to your hits based on what the tod set does

[ClashM]

Yeah Visty that's what I'm going on with my hopes of additional damage.

[Ranmaru2]

henshin will prolly add elemental damage to your hits based on what the tod set does

Hooray! More fire damage for more mobs who are immune to it! Oh wait...

[QuantumFX]

Hooray! More fire damage for more mobs who are immune to it! Oh wait...

If the PrE is anything like the P&P version it will buff both Sun and Earth Stance effects.

[Solmage]

Giving Monks the OPTION to use a piercing weapon is a good thing. Some creatures have DR/piercing, and even banishing and smiting short swords work well enough.

I see this as nothing more than an interesting option to have in the occasions when it may be advantageous to use, other than that, just take the sneak attack damage.

[Calebro]

Giving Monks the OPTION to use a piercing weapon is a good thing. Some creatures have DR/piercing, and even banishing and smiting short swords work well enough.

I see this as nothing more than an interesting option to have in the occasions when it may be advantageous to use, other than that, just take the sneak attack damage.

Exactly.

A piercing weapon is now a monk option.
Crafting a greensteel weapon other than a kama is now an option.
Free invisibility.
Passive Ki to keep that invis going if you choose.
Another weapon choice for multiclasses to stay centered.

These are all good things. Just because it doesn't involve a 10,000 point attack to top Touch of Death doesn't mean it's broken people.

[Sealsniper]

Exactly.

A piercing weapon is now a monk option.
Crafting a greensteel weapon other than a kama is now an option.
Free invisibility.
Passive Ki to keep that invis going if you choose.
Another weapon choice for multiclasses to stay centered.

These are all good things. Just because it doesn't involve a 10,000 point attack to top Touch of Death doesn't mean it's broken people.

I could be wrong, but with wraps and improved crit crit range gonna be the same as piercing weapons, unless monk uses 2nd feat to take improve crit pierce, so monk being forced either ss or wraps.

I agree with earlier post, is this DDO's offset to greensteel problem with monk...

I will wait to pass judgement until monk pre's all done, but not holding much hope out. Not much to get excited about if your a light path monk who prefers handwraps as your weapons. Still nothing for us...nothing that comes close to Epic SOS where in hands of a frenzied barbarian does +10 4d6 x5 crit 15-20....and crits on average for 725-750 pts of damage say 25% of my swings. Where is the balance in this game...

Seal

[nicro]

Does the Shadow Fade/Form break after attacking or does it persist like blur?

[Chaosprism]

Halflings? No siree,,, this is obviously a good choice for a drow monk, shortsword ki weapons, cmon..

On a side note: I think you'll see ninja II or III giving the shadow walk spell as a KI spending ability

[SolarDawning]

Does the Shadow Fade/Form break after attacking or does it persist like blur?

This information has not yet been released.

[Daehawk]

Does the Shadow Fade/Form break after attacking or does it persist like blur?

When I first read Shadow Fade it reminded me of the Shadow walk spell, but then I remembered that monks already get that ability from Empty Body at level 19. Granted level 6 is far before level 19, and doesn't mention movement speed increase.

But we'll have to see how it works exactly once it hits Lam unless Eladrin wants to shed some more light upon it at this moment.

[Hendrik]

Does the Shadow Fade/Form break after attacking or does it persist like blur?

Stands to reason it will break on attack. Just my gut instinct....

[Eladrin]

Stands to reason it will break on attack. Just my gut instinct....
Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.

[Schmoe]

Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.

*Cheers for reason prevailing*

[Geonis]

Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.

Interesting, this one line makes the PrE worth it now to me.....

Basically, ignoring the SS deal and I get to remain an extra 25% missed at all times, while adding an additional 1d6 sneak attack.....

[Angelus_dead]

Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.
So that means (as mentioned initially) that this is a supremely useful effect for tanking and generic survivability. Another 25% miss chance is a big deal (62% miss chance with Displacement going), and (as someone pointed out) these monks get it at level 6 while Pale Master has to wait for level 12 and make himself unhealable too. I don't think the Ki cost to maintain this buff will make a noticeable dent in TOD spam rate.

However, I suppose the content designers could choose to give certain bosses a ghost-touch weapon...

[Zaodan]

Another 25% miss chance is a big deal (62% miss chance with Displacement going)

Eladrin never said it stacked.

[Angelus_dead]

Eladrin never said it stacked.
If he had said it stacked I would have written 75 instead of 62.

[Zaodan]

If he had said it stacked I would have written 75 instead of 62.

Um, Blur and Displacement don't stack. You get 50% (Displacement's value) as Displacement simply overrides Blur.

I expect this to work the same - you either use the Monk buff for 25% or get Displacement for 50%. You will not get 62%. Therefore, they don't stack.

[Borror0]

Um, Blur and Displacement don't stack.
Both are Concealment bonuses. This is an Incorporeal bonus, which is different, and therefore stack multiplicatively.

[Angelus_dead]

Um, Blur and Displacement don't stack. You get 50% (Displacement's value) as Displacement simply overrides Blur.

I expect this to work the same - you either use the Monk buff for 25% or get Displacement for 50%. You will not get 62%. Therefore, they don't stack.
That is wrong in multiple ways:
1. The concept you're describing is not "stacking". If two protective effects apply separately they're not "stacking".

2. Incorporeality and concealment do in fact apply separately, with each getting its own chance to prevent a hit.

[Calebro]

Um, Blur and Displacement don't stack. You get 50% (Displacement's value) as Displacement simply overrides Blur.

I expect this to work the same - you either use the Monk buff for 25% or get Displacement for 50%. You will not get 62%. Therefore, they don't stack.

Those aren't a miss chance due to incorporeality however. Those are illusionary effects.
It stands to reason that it should make 2 separate checks, as there are two separate reasons for the miss chance.
That would follow PnP, and the letter of the rule.

[Zaodan]

Both are Concealment bonuses. This is an Incorporeal bonus, which is different, and therefore stack multiplicatively.

You don't know for a fact that its an "Incorporeal Bonus". You're assuming that due to its name. And you might be right. But you might be wrong.

I'm just saying it would be better if Eladrin clarified whether this + Displacement = 62% total, or if Displacement will override it like it does Blur.

[Angelus_dead]

You don't know for a fact that its an "Incorporeal Bonus". You're assuming that due to its name.
How about you read the enhancement and try again?

[Borror0]

You don't know for a fact that its an "Incorporeal Bonus".
It's written in the description and in Eladrin's post.

[Zaodan]

How about you read the enhancement and try again?

The text Eladrin posted doesn't denote the bonus type. It just describes it in layman's terms.

Again, your assumptions may be right, but it would still be better for Eladrin to at least say, "Yes, it is an Incorporeal effect, not an Illusion effect, and therefore will increase the miss chance to 62% if used with Displacement."

[Zaodan]

It's written in the description and in Eladrin's post.

No, its not, unfortunately. It would be better for Eladrin to clarify.

[Calebro]

The text Eladrin posted doesn't denote the bonus type. It just describes it in layman's terms.

Again, your assumptions may be right, but it would still be better for Eladrin to at least say, "Yes, it is an Incorporeal effect, not an Illusion effect, and therefore will increase the miss chance to 62% if used with Displacement."

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

Emphasis mine

[Daehawk]

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

[Borror0]

No, its not, unfortunately. It would be better for Eladrin to clarify.
While I appreciate you supporting my other point that descriptions should be stripped of flavorful coating to avoid being misleading...

[Angelus_dead]

No, its not, unfortunately. It would be better for Eladrin to clarify.
What part of "miss chance due to incorporeality" leads you to think that the miss chance might not be due to incorporeality?

[Zaodan]

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

Emphasis mine

Precicely my point.

See how it doesn't say "Grants a 25% Incorporeality Bonus" but instead just uses flavor text "due to incorporeality" ?

Glad you see my point.

Eladrin, we'd love a clarification here, since its not clear if we'd get a 62% overall miss chance with this move + Displacement or not.

Thanks.

[Valiance]

I hear the arguments and I hope they're true but I still don't think they stack.

Does the Wretched twilight stack with displacement? I haven't done rigourous testing but I think they do not.

Edit: Hmmmmm. Well I looked up Wretched twilight and a couple of things suprised me. 1) the miss chance is typed as concealment so it clearly wouldn't stack and 2) the miss type is concealment even though the effect is called incorporeal. So despite all of the underlining in quotes above Zaodan might be right. It seems that even if the justification is incorporeality they have a track record of typing the bonus as concealment.

V

[Calebro]

Precicely my point.

See how it doesn't say "Grants a 25% Incorporeality Bonus" but instead just uses flavor text "due to incorporeality" ?

Glad you see my point.

Eladrin, we'd love a clarification here, since its not clear if we'd get a 62% overall miss chance with this move + Displacement or not.

Thanks.

Let's try it another way:
Flavor text
Mechanics text

Ninja Spy Shadow Fade
Cost 15 Ki
Benefit: You focus your Ki and draw shadows around you, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. 25% miss chance due to incorporeality. Counts as a dark move.

Better?


Edit: Hmmmmm. Well I looked up Wretched twilight and a couple of things suprised me. 1) the miss chance is typed as concealment so it clearly wouldn't stack and 2) the miss type is concealment even though the effect is called incorporeal. So despite all of the underlining in quotes above Zaodan might be right. It seems that even if the justification is incorporeality they have a track record of typing the bonus as concealment.Well here's to hoping they do what they claim this time.

[Zaodan]

I hear the arguments and I hope they're true but I still don't think they stack.

Does the Wretched twilight stack with displacement? I haven't done rigourous testing but I think they do not.

Edit: Hmmmmm. Well I looked up Wretched twilight and a couple of things suprised me. 1) the miss chance is typed as concealment so it clearly wouldn't stack and 2) the miss type is concealment even though the effect is called incorporeal. So despite all of the underlining in quotes above Zaodan might be right. It seems that even if the justification is incorporeality they have a track record of typing the bonus as concealment.

V

This is my point.

As I said, Angelus is probably right, but I'm sick and tired of making assumptions based on poor Feat/Enhancement description text, only to discover the reality in-game is different.

There is no excuse at this point in DDO's evolution for poor explanation text. Seriously.

[Angelus_dead]

See how it doesn't say "Grants a 25% Incorporeality Bonus" but instead just uses flavor text "due to incorporeality" ?
What gives you the idea that "due to incorporeality" is "flavor" text?

It would have been incorrect for them to use the phrase "Incorporeality Bonus", since there is no bonus involved.


its not clear if we'd get a 62% overall miss chance with this move + Displacement or not.
It's already clear. There are two possibilities here:
1. It's incorporeality.
2. Eladrin thought it would be fun to lie to us.

Seriously, it's not as if combining Displacement and an incorporeality defense is a new concept. We've been over this before with Pale Master and known exactly how they function together:

In Update 5, the wraith form incorporeality being considered concealment will also be fixed

[Borror0]

There is no excuse at this point in DDO's evolution for poor explanation text. Seriously.
Welcome to the club.

But this one is as clear as it can be.

[Eladrin]

Both are Concealment bonuses. This is an Incorporeal bonus, which is different, and therefore stack multiplicatively.
This is correct. Incorporeality is a different channel from Concealment.

[Zaodan]

Seriously, it's not as if combining Displacement and an incorporeality defense is a new concept. We've been over this before with Pale Master and known exactly how they function together:

If you look at the Wretched Twilight example, its not clear that Turbine has all their ducks in the same row on this.

Lets ask for a clarification, ok ?

Thanks.

[Angelus_dead]

As I said, Angelus is probably right
No, that is the opposite from what you said a few minutes ago:

I expect this to work the same - you either use the Monk buff for 25% or get Displacement for 50%. You will not get 62%. Therefore, they don't stack.


I'm sick and tired of making assumptions based on poor Feat/Enhancement description text, only to discover the reality in-game is different.
There is no poor description text involved here.

[Zaodan]

This is correct. Incorporeality is a different channel from Concealment.

Thanks for the clarification, Eladrin.

See, was that so hard?

[Angelus_dead]

If you look at the Wretched Twilight example, its not clear that Turbine has all their ducks in the same row on this.
The Wretched Twilight example provides further support that I am correct.

[Visty]

The Wretched Twilight example provides further support that I am correct.

not as that as it grants concealment bonus due to incorporality
so he might have had a small point

[nicro]

Does true seeing bypass this new incorporeal bonus?
Would be neat if this provides a miss chance against pit fiends.

[Valiance]

This is correct. Incorporeality is a different channel from Concealment.

Well that's awesomely informative and timely. Keep giving us information like this when we need it E! I like it.

On a side note this prestige line is pretty sweet now.

V

[Angelus_dead]

Does true seeing bypass this new incorporeal bonus?
Would be neat if this provides a miss chance against pit fiends.
True Seeing does not bypass it, but us players do not yet know whether or not Pit Fiends carry Ghost Touch handwraps.

[Chaosprism]

So let me get this straight, it's separate concealment from incorporealness.

So lets say you have blur 20% and incorporealness 25%

So it rolls to get past your concealment, succeeds so then it has to roll vs incorporeal .
Cant off the top of my head remember the maths (isnt that bad)
Is it?
4/5 * 3/4 = 12/20 or 3/5 chance of being hit? so you avoid blows 2 in 5 strikes about?

[Schmoe]

So let me get this straight, it's separate concealment from incorporealness.

So lets say you have blur 20% and incorporealness 25%

So it rolls to get past your concealment, succeeds so then it has to roll vs incorporeal .
Cant off the top of my head remember the maths (isnt that bad)
Is it?
4/5 * 3/4 = 12/20 or 3/5 chance of being hit? so you avoid blows 2 in 5 strikes about?


That is correct. You have it exactly right.

[Chaosprism]

I agree that the ninja's should get daggers as KI weapons (some daggers look like SAI anyway) and probably not shortsword... or maybe both.

Animation wise for monks, i'd like to see whirwind cleave and great cleave still do the KICK animations even with daggers, shortswords or kama in your hands. (even if the damage is still based on the weapons in your hands)

[Calebro]

I agree that the ninja's should get daggers as KI weapons (some daggers look like SAI anyway) and probably not shortsword... or maybe both.

Animation wise for monks, i'd like to see whirwind cleave and great cleave still do the KICK animations even with daggers, shortswords or kama in your hands. (even if the damage is still based on the weapons in your hands)

The decision for short swords was probably due to the fact that mechanically speaking, according to 3.5 rules, the short sword is identical to the ninja-to.

And if you want that animation, there's a way to do it. Equip two weapons, with the weapon of choice in your off hand. Then unequip the main hand weapon. Your attack animation and speed is that of unarmed, your main hand attacks are unarmed (and unequipped), and your off hand attack is that of the weapon equipped.

I tend to do this with a kama sometimes in quests that have a lot of both skellies and zombies, so that I don't have to keep swapping weapon sets.

[Artagon]

if they gave all monk weapons the unarmed dmg progression, it wouldn't even be an issue. And I would not at all be against this move being that base monk weapons are all the same dmg and crit ability. This would improve the ability for monks to be flexible too.

[Timjc86]

True Seeing does not bypass it, but us players do not yet know whether or not Pit Fiends carry Ghost Touch handwraps.

Or whether (assuming they do have Ghost Touch Handwraps) said handwraps have been placed into an Altar of Change so that they function correctly. :p

[Timjc86]

Shadow Fade lasts one minute, and grants invisibility and 25% incorporeality. Attacking will break the invisibility portion, but the incorporeality portion will linger for the full minute.

That is... pleasantly surprising.

[Aspenor]

Too lazy to read all the way through, will the incorporality go away when you attack like invisibility does?

[SolarDawning]

Too lazy to read all the way through, will the incorporality go away when you attack like invisibility does?

Eladrin says no. It lasts one minute per cast.

[~WickedWendigo]

Why do I forsee drow becoming a more popular monk choice?