To all the thelanian paper warriors

[petegunn]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6
Greater false life
Shroud crafted hp item
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up
Minos helm from the orchard
Starting con stat of 14+
Heavy fort

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.

[soloman]

Gettem Pete!!!

[Gorby]

As my friend Timelord says: "Did your son make your armor out of macaroni?"

[KannyaAryien]

If I could +1 you, I would, OP...but until then, I unapologetically agree. :)

Please, do not enter my Shroud's with less than 300 hp...those 200 hp rogues and casters out there, ya gotta hold up your end, I'm not your personal healer. I'm here for the group.

I hope a lot of people read this, and attempt to better their builds as a result. Cuz if it keeps getting worse, I'm only healing raids for people I know....and I really don't want to have to start doing that.

[Nouda_EU]

pete dont you love my squishes? :o

[Elaril]

<generic forum response> To Peete, your original post might be very sound advice that points players to the most appropriate way of speccing/outfitting a character for raids and quests where they will be taking heavy damage.

However, I, the responder, have at least one character that isn't "able to absorb much damage," and it has worked out for me in the two or three Shrouds that I have been able to complete without dying (I'm not going to mention the extra healer in the group spamming clw's on me soley to take me from almost dead to full health, or the other ten or twenty where I die almost immediately in part four). So what, if I know the ins and outs of the the penalty box...so what if I am "more trouble than I'm worth" to the healer...so what if the cleric "just lets me die." It's my toon, I made it, and I don't have to listen to anyone...neener neener neener. </generic forum response>

[petegunn]

pete dont you love my squishes? :o


Why Nouda you are exempt owing to the fact you have a fine set of squishies :p

[Jiipster]

I pondered joining a pug today on my FvS, but something drove me to MyDDO the rogue in the group first... he had 72 HP at level 12, a fort save of 2, and no fort. His WIS was twice as high as his CON.

[petegunn]

<generic forum response> To Peete, your original post might be very sound advice that points players to the most appropriate way of speccing/outfitting a character for raids and quests where they will be taking heavy damage.

However, I, the responder, have at least one character that isn't "able to absorb much damage," and it has worked out for me in the two or three Shrouds that I have been able to complete without dying (I'm not going to mention the extra healer in the group spamming clw's on me soley to take me from almost dead to full health, or the other ten or twenty where I die almost immediately in part four). So what, if I know the ins and outs of the the penalty box...so what if I am "more trouble than I'm worth" to the healer...so what if the cleric "just lets me die." It's my toon, I made it, and I don't have to listen to anyone...neener neener neener. </generic forum response>

Of course the whole server knows akoris not perfect, sometimes you have to have that one guy on your raid just for entertainment value and you and I both know that akori never fails to deliver :D. That is why raid leaders would let you join. Its when theres more than one akori in group when events take a turn for the worse.

[Xithos]

Nice list Pete; too bad the noobs that haven't figured this out yet probably don't read the forums either :)

[Bladecutter563]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6 Expensive
Greater false life Expensive
Shroud crafted hp item Adventure pack
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up No excuses.
Minos helm from the orchard Adventure pack.
Starting con stat of 14+ No excuses.
Heavy fort Expensive

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.

However, for a level 20 character, I agree completely. He should have more than enough plat, especially if he's doing and redoing raids. It's also hilarious to observe half a group, all fighters, going from full to a fourth of their hit points in a few seconds. I mean come on. My fighter isn't the best and she still manages to last several minutes at least without a heal. Not that hard.

[Dirac]

Yes and this cannot be emphasized enough. Everyone needs these items.

Blade, the items mentioned might be expensive at min level but min level 15 +6 con or GFL + some junk skill buff are not. Also, minos gives heavy fort.

Petegunn, you mention the Shroud. Obviously, if the person/character is new they are not going to have a shroud crafted hp item, so I would cut them some slack there. Everything else is absolute.

[LordArkan]

So someone should have a shroud-crafted item to run the shroud? :)

[Nezichiend]

Wonderful advice sir!

I put up several raids today and I got an enormous amount of join requests from people with <400hp. Casters with <300hp. And when I tell them that 270hp is too little for VoD on hard they say something like "I don't take any damage, I never melee" or "Screw you dude, your character sucks I am teh uberz!!" or "I have never been declined because of a cleric having low hp before".

At lvl 20, EVERY melee has to have 400hp minimum. Even rogues, rangers and melee bards. I'd say 450 minimum for pally and fighters.

[Gunga]

Kik'em in they shiitey bums, mate.

[Nezichiend]

So someone should have a shroud-crafted item to run the shroud? :)

No.

Let's say you are a paladin, lvl 17.

20 (Heroic durability)
170 (Hit dice)
102 (22con [14base+6item+2tome])
30 (GFL)
19 (Toughness)
20 (Minos)
20 (Toughness ench)
17 (Rage spell)
10 (Favour)
______________
408

[Salsa]

I disagree. Most of these are likely new players who may or may not even read the forums. They may not have access to these things. Expecting XYZ and is unreasonable IMO.

Whoever I think since we are talking 20th level here:

Con 14 is reasonable(though some builds don't need it this high)
Toughness is reasonable
A con item of some sort +2 to +4
False life item possibly
At least a light fort item

[EddieB_TBC]

Gettem Pete!!!
I was just thinking the other day... where has Pete been? ROFL

[Jiipster]

I disagree.

(...)

At least a light fort item

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 15.

[Swedishchef]

407 raged (lvl19) as bard in shourd with no shroud-hp item is it ok? (no madstone ofc) :D

I agree ofc :) even thou i do not represent all my guildies.

[Alintalkin]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 15.

I would say after level 11 or 12 personally especially since you can get one from relic of a sovereign past for at no cost but perhaps the time it takes to run it (in which you get experience and loot anyhow).

[Zyklon]

I would say after level 11 or 12 personally especially since you can get one from relic of a sovereign past for at no cost but perhaps the time it takes to run it (in which you get experience and loot anyhow).

Not to mention it is a Free to Play quest (at least I think it is).

-

[Salsa]

You see, I don't assume people know where things are. I go by what they should of gotten without knowing anything. Most of the people the OP is talking about are likely new (heck I am new and I can't tell you 'oh you get X at Y'). You don't have to do specific quests to get to level 20.


Sure, you will likely die alot. But then again, they some how managed to get to level 20(which doesn't mean they really know anything) without throwing the towel in and starting over or looking on the forums for why they die so often.

[mannvar]

Something doesn't add up when most of the 6 con or gfl ml15 items I put up in the ah for ~60 to 90k gold bo don't sell... I mean seriously, one would assume it really sucked to play a toon that constantly dies, regardless of what quest you are doing.

[soloman]

When I first started playing I saw HP as the most vital stat that I could understand and control.

Like most of you, I just dont get the mindset of these players that walk into the Shroud as a capped melee with less HP than the people that are trying thier arses off to keep them alive. But what can be done other than to avoid them?

Like others have stated, the new folk that are playing these toons either dont care that they are a liability in any group they join and/or they dont read the forums so we are all just ****ing in the wind.

What I do is only group with people I know or are friends with. When I do pug (and its not often) I make sure I can darn near solo the quest if it came down to it because way too often I have had to do just that.

I wish that I could just quit pugging altogether but I do enjoy the social aspect of this game too much. Also, meeting new peeps that are solid and comptent players gives you better insight for the days you need or want to add to your team. /Buys a pint for Pete :D

[Bilger]

I disagree. Most of these are likely new players who may or may not even read the forums. They may not have access to these things. Expecting XYZ and is unreasonable IMO.

Whoever I think since we are talking 20th level here:

Con 14 is reasonable(though some builds don't need it this high)
Toughness is reasonable
A con item of some sort +2 to +4
False life item possibly
At least a light fort item

Seriously if made 20 you have run plenty of high end content and gfl, HF, and +5 and +6 items are common drops.

seriously light fort is useless especially when one crit wipes ya

Shoot minos at 11 are ez to get and may not be common knowledge to noobies but most will have heard by 20.

Everything pete mentioned is reasonable to acquire for a melee. Even a new one

If made to 20 without learning or acquiring at least most of these items then a lot of piking has been done.

[weyoun]

If I could +1 you, I would, OP...but until then, I unapologetically agree. :)

Please, do not enter my Shroud's with less than 300 hp...those 200 hp rogues and casters out there, ya gotta hold up your end, I'm not your personal healer. I'm here for the group.

I hope a lot of people read this, and attempt to better their builds as a result. Cuz if it keeps getting worse, I'm only healing raids for people I know....and I really don't want to have to start doing that.

350 hps is minimum for melee. I don't care if ur a bow user and <insert banal excuse why you don't need 350 hps>. 300 hp min for casters. There isn't a single player out there who, in their right mind, will ever think, "I wish I had less hitpoints."

Pete is right. Listen up noobs.

[weyoun]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 11.

Fixed that for ya.

[Seelowe]

for the new ppl and the know-better-than-you noobs, (who, as noted earlier are prolly exactly those that never read the forums to begin with) expecting a hp item out of the shroud as soon as they start farming it is not really realistic. most melees will use all their first larges on that minII or LS or earthgrab or radiance weapon. if they are 2wf possibly on a 2nd one as well before they look into items like hp, sp, conc opp, guards etc.
the older a toon gets though, those items are expected and if your hps are not over a certain number should be your priority.

I agree with that whole list for capped toons and ppl with more than 1 toon on a server.

don't be afraid to let new ppl know where to get the things in that list. often, it is simply their first toon and they simply do not know and will be thankful for the information.

now... what I would really like to do is take pete's 1st post and YELL it at the group of capped TRed toons running around lately WITHOUT those things. for pete's sakes!!

in other news, I blame lysol's bio.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

in other news, I blame lysol's bio.

Na, just blame Lysol.
His sig changes somtimes, but Lysol is always the same... :D

[hockeyrama]

first at level 20 i think it fair to say that most of the gear mentioned could be had if not something comparable. However to say that they have to have all of it is not right as mentioned some expensive. However, there are other ways to get close to the numbers you say. My belief is that that players and especially melee characters should focus on HP more. A caster or rogue would or could ahve an argument that 400 is too high but a melee should not.

Here is what I see. In lower levels the same problem exists so the following should be true for all characters:

First putting 6 of your build points (whether 28 or 32) in con should be done as yes you want to cap your main as a drow sorc for example but I can't think of a build that would be hindered if they did not put at least 6 points into con and more for any melee.

Second having toughness as a feat at least once and getting the racial toughness as well should be done by every character. This will go a long way and getting your hp up. The only character that might not need this would be a barbarian as he may already have a very large HP pool and he wants to do more damage.

Third look for gear that boost your hitpoints. Whether it casts false life 1 or more times per rest or whether it has false life on it the point is make sure to look for this type of gear and buy if you have to.

So I will always say picking a number like 400 is not a good idea as there are players that can survive with less. I would say players should make sure that HP are a major part of their build plan and caster, rogue or fighter ou should try ot max it. Now to say they should wear this or that gear is also bad as they can do it their way. It is a social game and players like to do things their way. So if they put a focus on HP they shoud be ok even if they get just under your 400 total.

Example: Even at low levels low HP is a problem.
I doing a bunch of level 4 quests on hard and some on elite with my cleric whoe is level 7 (most players level 5 -7). I had two casters one sorc and one wiz. One clw from me with my items (this is also a new character on server so items earned not passed form other character) and setup would heal almost their entire hp. So one kept asking for bears at begining and I figured better give it before one or two hits drops him. The difference here is he knew it was low. I recommended when he go to 6 he grab tougness and he agreed that he is seeing the need for it with the enhancements.

I ahve also seen rogues with very low hp in the right group (at higher levels) take almost no damage if they play it rgiht. So to say it has to be a certain amount is harder on some builds. But to say you have to focus on HP that is true for all.

[petegunn]

Just to clear up a few points here, this isn't a bash at new players for theres many a so called veteran who are guilty as charged. I'm talking about level 20 melee characters and I'm being liberal with the 400 hp benchmark. The shroud crafted hp item was a recommendation to help boost hp, what level do these fools start to pike the shroud ? 15 or 16 maybe. So if they're not completing thats a lot of ingredient farming to get the basics covered (weapon or weapons first then hp next) even the second alter yields 20 hp.

Casters you require 300ish hp, I'll give you a reason why now. Part 4 of the shroud again, in there I'm seeing low hp gimps not even last the first spawn of devils! couple that with the Pitters dbf in the bake for 230 odd hp damage then a wee session in the blades, to finish your 150 hp caster or cleric off. You can't defend having 150 hp really. Which I see a lot of casters and even clerics having.

My sorc has about 290 hp and this is how I mitigate said damage, I always keep fire prot up plus I can no fail heal scrolls so I'm not a liability on that score. Also I'm smart enough not to stand in the blades and of course I always keep on the move and I keep an eye on what/where the Pitters doing and facing.

I restate what I typed earlier reference the low hp, some players can pull it off, but they are an exception to the general population.
Example, a rogue the other night when quizzed about his lack of hp, defended it by saying he knew what he was doing and he never took any damage. This person had 272 hp! at level 20 he died once in part 4 and 3 times yes three times in part 5 before he rage quit.

If you're reading this champ we completed with myself fvs still alive and 2 rangers to save the day. The reallity of the situation is, an easy raid like the shrouds being made hard by players who should know better but don't. They're willing to freeload a completion knowing full well they don't even contribute to the group at all. I may be an arsehole but when I join your lfm on whatever class I'm playing be it healer, caster or melee at least I'm an arsehole who works and brings something to the team.

To conclude at level 20 you really haven't heard of the ddo forum?you should have a basic grasp of the game and the quests within (shroud again the PUZZLE), also you should have a concept of how your character works. If you don't then you're totally selfish you have no regard for your fellow player nor do you seek or want help.

[Pyromaniac]

Pete - As always you have words of wisdom.

I'm playing a lot less DDO these days, one of the reasons is due to an increasing percentage of the playerbase who feel like they should be carried through every quest.

MyDDO'd a level 20 sorc a few weeks ago and the guy had mid 90s hp....yes not 190, not 290, not 390, not 490 but around 94 hp. He was drow, had next to nothing hp building on at all.

I think its time to be able to set miminums if you have an LFM up for hp. If you don't have more than a specific amount of hp for a class, you get auto rejected from group. This should be part of the LFM grouping tool.

[Irinis]

I laugh when I'm on my caster and I see a healer throw me a cure light to test how many hp I have, because I do the same on my healer (bard). Too many casters can be filled up by just a maximized clw and why waste sp on keeping them up? Unfortunately then I usually cry because I end up dead when the mob hits me for more than the healer healed me for and I wouldn't have died with a real heal. :(

[diamabel]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6
Greater false life
Shroud crafted hp item
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up
Minos helm from the orchard
Starting con stat of 14+
Heavy fort

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.


Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely).

The issue may be that you don't need these for most of the quests while leveling up (not even elite). Provided you can exploit the AI and use appropriate tactics (e.g. pulling small manageable groups, focus fire, target casters first, range when appropriate and get shield blocked for protection, crowd control, etc.). The run may be slower this way, but you need no resources or exceptional equipment.

[abull74]

I dont play healers....but I have to agree with the OP........if you have less than 300 hp on ANY toon...reroll and stay away from my groups.

I ran with a caster this week he was lvl 7 with 48 HP:eek: ...W.T.F.....re roll!!!!
I know a ranger(Arcane Archer), that has 178HP at lvl 17....given he was a noob and he said he knew his mistake and that he was gonna TR as soon as he hit 20 and correct his build.

Still, dont poeple do a little research on the game they are trying to play or character build research for that shiney new toon you want?

I am an OLD SCHOOL player....been around since a week after launch in 06'. I unfortunately had to learn all this the hard way along with everyone else.....but now days, the forums are FULL of experience just waiting to be soaked up by noobs to help them be better prepared before jumping in DDO and totally gimping themselves.

CON IS NOT A DUMP STAT....IT IS A PRIMARY STAT FOR ALL CLASSES!!!

I AM THE FPOON!!!

[Jiipster]

Fixed that for ya.

11 can be tough for the first toon of a new player. I personally make sure that nearly all my toons have 100% fort at level 6 (mod fort item, since 90% of my toons are warfrogs). At 11 you can make excuses, at 15 you can't.

[LugnutEU]

Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely).

The issue may be that you don't need these for most of the quests while leveling up (not even elite). Provided you can exploit the AI and use appropriate tactics (e.g. pulling small manageable groups, focus fire, target casters first, range when appropriate and get shield blocked for protection, crowd control, etc.). The run may be slower this way, but you need no resources or exceptional equipment.

You can pick up GFL, Heavy Fort and +6 con items from the vendor, usually with something useless attached to them but they perform perfectly well until you get better gear. I've been playing on this server for a little over a month, my ranger at L20 has 506 hp with no hard to find gear (not had enough shards from shroud to craft yet) but all of my stat gear is L15 has it has +3skills on making it much cheaper than the L13 gear.

[petegunn]

I quote Diamabel.

Well, you can expect someone with several capped toons to have this kind of equipment. Not from someone who is new to the game and doesn't even have access to adventure packs where half these items come from. Nor with the financial resources to buy the other half from the auction house. If someone gets really lucky he may get everything on his/her first runs, but that is unlikely). End quote

You're missing the point here, these guys are level 20 they're running the raids so they have the adventure packs or they're vip. They got to level 20 by running raids and quests and in those raids and quests are shineys for the looting off (some of these fools even have dragon touched armour) *shudder* I wonder who pulled them through the reavers refuge 'the horror the horror'.

From the gianthold on in is where the good loot lies. So are you really telling me that from level 13 to 20 they never pulled loot that would be benificial to their build?

Perhaps they sold all their loot to the vendor but a wise man once told me "theres no point being the richest man in the grave"

[weyoun]

11 can be tough for the first toon of a new player. I personally make sure that nearly all my toons have 100% fort at level 6 (mod fort item, since 90% of my toons are warfrogs). At 11 you can make excuses, at 15 you can't.

I would argue that there are several chests in the orchard that are easy to solo, even on a melee and there is always the nightforge gorgette out of BAM - min level 9 and ftp. Anyone with an ounce of ambition and leadership and the will to grind can put together a tap farming group and get a minos in about two hours. This should be your first priority upon reaching level 11 if you do not have a Minos. Show up in Gianthold without heavy fort and you are dead weight, literally. I have a large surplus of tapestries as do most other vets that we have just accumulated over time - its an extremely easy item to obtain. I find it unfortunate when someone is wearing a diefic diadem in lieu of a minos and I will decline that person because they are either new or lost.

If there is some new player reading this who wants a GFL belt or a con6 belt I have a dozen on one of my mules. Send me a PM and I'll give it to you.

[Salsa]

Wow negative reputation for an opinion especially when it was clearly stated it was just an opinion.

Not everyone uses the vendors/auction house. Permas come to mind. Recently 'dead' perma that wants to continue outside the guild isn't going to have the resources or gear others would. However, they probably have a trick or two outside the 'norm' mind set. As I said, they have reached 20th without it, they might know something you don't.

I noted light fort as a min (even though it may be inadequate) because at the least it shows they are thinking about it.

[petegunn]

I now quote Abull74

"I know a ranger(Arcane Archer), that has 178HP at lvl 17....given he was a noob and he said he knew his mistake and that he was gonna TR as soon as he hit 20 and correct his build".

Bingo!!!! in red. So here in lies the problem I would ask this guy if its acceptable for other players to carry his mistake to level 20? What do you guys/girls think should we become responsible for other players screw ups?

Here is where those players and I differ as soon as I discovered my mistake I would have rerolled there and then.

Think of it like this, 12 strangers gather around a barbeque, people are allocated chores to do, some cook ,some buy the food, some buy the beer whilst the rest do the washing up. What happens if 2 or 3 persons shirk the jobs that are assigned to them? IE they have no money can't cook a bbq "now thats a lol "or refuse to do the cleaning up. The bbq becomes a daily occurance, but the same 2 or 3 people keep attending with nothing to offer at all, just freeloading all the way to the top, when does it become enough?

This person quoted in red knows hes a burden to parties, but hes quite happy to waste peoples time and resourses to level 20, I say " what balls, what a brass neck that guy has"and the others like him. When did we start reinforcing such behaviour? Lets face it people the blame lies squarely on our shoulders for allowing such necky behaviour to continue.

My solutions harsh and its not going to be popular some may even think it brutal, when I see a gimp I'm going to call it, I shall offer diplomatic advice. If I run with the same person again and the advice hasn't been heeded I'll mark the said character as a dnp. Lets stop carrying these people to the top, they learn nothing from it nor do they even appreciate the free ride, for some its even an imagined entitlement (one can imagine those players scoffing at our expense).

I know I've become bitter and I am a shadow of the former person I once was when I arrived here a while back. Mr pug they used to call me I'd have run with anyone, but now I have my in game contacts plus I still enjoy the game so I'll keep on keeping on, its just I have a low threshold for complete eejits, just as in real life.

[Rusty_Can]

Whoever I think since we are talking 20th level here:

Con 14 is reasonable(though some builds don't need it this high)
Toughness is reasonable
A con item of some sort +2 to +4
False life item possibly
At least a light fort item

You are as good as dead.


Fixed that for ya.

Uhm... I will dare fixing your fix O_o

There is really no excuse not to have 100% fort at lvl 9: http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Necklaces/NightforgeGorget.jpg. Btw, Relic of Sovereign Past is F2P, hence anyone can run this stuff.

As a side note, WF characters can hit 100% fort at lvl 7 (lvl 5 with RR items), since items of Moderate Fortification stack with WF innate light fortification ......

[petegunn]

Wow negative reputation for an opinion especially when it was clearly stated it was just an opinion.

Not everyone uses the vendors/auction house. Permas come to mind. Recently 'dead' perma that wants to continue outside the guild isn't going to have the resources or gear others would. However, they probably have a trick or two outside the 'norm' mind set. As I said, they have reached 20th without it, they might know something you don't.

I noted light fort as a min (even though it may be inadequate) because at the least it shows they are thinking about it.

Don't worry about the rep, you prob got it for stating the minimum requirements for level 7's. heres a little secret if I get anymore red from this thread I believe Vettkinn will ask for my hand in marriage :D

[amnota]

And both the rangers lol'd when some in the party said "WOW,I can't believe WE did it" after it was over. Raised the dead cleric..again...and left. Pete....both rangers agree 100% It was a Shroud to remember.

[Srozbun]

I now quote Abull74

"I know a ranger(Arcane Archer), that has 178HP at lvl 17....given he was a noob and he said he knew his mistake and that he was gonna TR as soon as he hit 20 and correct his build".

Bingo!!!! in red. So here in lies the problem I would ask this guy if its acceptable for other players to carry his mistake to level 20? What do you guys/girls think should we become responsible for other players screw ups?

Here is where those players and I differ as soon as I discovered my mistake I would have rerolled there and then.

Think of it like this, 12 strangers gather around a barbeque, people are allocated chores to do, some cook ,some buy the food, some buy the beer whilst the rest do the washing up. What happens if 2 or 3 persons shirk the jobs that are assigned to them? IE they have no money can't cook a bbq "now thats a lol "or refuse to do the cleaning up. The bbq becomes a daily occurance, but the same 2 or 3 people keep attending with nothing to offer at all, just freeloading all the way to the top, when does it become enough?

This person quoted in red knows hes a burden to parties, but hes quite happy to waste peoples time and resourses to level 20, I say " what balls, what a brass neck that guy has"and the others like him. When did we start reinforcing such behaviour? Lets face it people the blame lies squarely on our shoulders for allowing such necky behaviour to continue.

My solutions harsh and its not going to be popular some may even think it brutal, when I see a gimp I'm going to call it, I shall offer diplomatic advice. If I run with the same person again and the advice hasn't been heeded I'll mark the said character as a dnp. Lets stop carrying these people to the top, they learn nothing from it nor do they even appreciate the free ride, for some its even an imagined entitlement (one can imagine those players scoffing at our expense).

I know I've become bitter and I am a shadow of the former person I once was when I arrived here a while back. Mr pug they used to call me I'd have run with anyone, but now I have my in game contacts plus I still enjoy the game so I'll keep on keeping on, its just I have a low threshold for complete eejits, just as in real life.

Lesser reincarnate. It'll be cheaper and more effective than TR anyway. I hope he didn't plan to run epics at level 20 to farm his epic tokens to TR and was instead going to purchase from store :P

[Bilger]

Wow negative reputation for an opinion especially when it was clearly stated it was just an opinion.

Not everyone uses the vendors/auction house. Permas come to mind. Recently 'dead' perma that wants to continue outside the guild isn't going to have the resources or gear others would. However, they probably have a trick or two outside the 'norm' mind set. As I said, they have reached 20th without it, they might know something you don't.

I noted light fort as a min (even though it may be inadequate) because at the least it shows they are thinking about it.

I may have disagreed but never would give neg rep for posting your OP even if I think it was very wrong.

How people can argue against and give pete neg rep at all is beside me all these items are easy to get, noob or not. Unless ya a piker.

Already gave ya a +1 pete won't let me hand out more. till spread it around.:D

[petegunn]

Cheers Bilger regardless of what Krak said about you in those private tells you're a good lad in my book;)

I probably got negged because of my wording in my intitial op, maybe it offended the sensitive soul, or perhaps someone who has enough power *snicker* also has a few of these low hp builds and was angry because I turned low hp alts into a hot topic my 15 minutes of fame, when they'd rather keep it a closely guarded secret.

[Bilger]

Cheers Bilger regardless of what Krak said about you in those private tells you're a good lad in my book;)

I probably got negged because of my wording in my intitial op, maybe it offended the sensitive soul, or perhaps someone who has enough power *snicker* also has a few of these low hp builds and was angry because I turned low hp alts into a hot topic my 15 minutes of fame, when they'd rather keep it a closely guarded secret.

LOL thx Pete, miss Kraak dam RL getting in the way of his gaming.

Yep prob offended one who has the POWER lol:D

[vindicater]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 15.

Let me fix that for you. There is absolutly no excuse for not having heavy fort once you get to 11. When you get to 10 head to the orchard and gather your taps. I look at it as a right of passage type thing on my characters. All toons should have a menos wether it is replaced later with a differint combonation of fort item-helm or not.

[Salsa]

I may have disagreed but never would give neg rep for posting your OP even if I think it was very wrong.

How people can argue against and give pete neg rep at all is beside me all these items are easy to get, noob or not. Unless ya a piker.

Already gave ya a +1 pete won't let me hand out more. till spread it around.:D

Oh I am sure I am wrong no mistake there, I did note they probably died alot, I am just more forgiving then most (has sucker written on his forehead)

[Salsa]

Don't worry about the rep, you prob got it for stating the minimum requirements for level 7's. heres a little secret if I get anymore red from this thread I believe Vettkinn will ask for my hand in marriage :D

Heh, I don't think any of my chars got it at level 7. ROFL..need a bestman for that wedding?

[rykim]

when you going to cap creasy?

[Delt]

- Players with ridiculously low HP are like a happy surprise. I get all giddy when I my.DDO party members and find one.

- My original sorc had...like 250hp at best at level 20. I didn't *ding* all the time and soloed quite a bit (prior to scaling). I'm not saying that the majority of low HP builds can work with a small HP threshold, but some certainly can.

If you ask me, low HP builds are worth the laugh at least. I don't want them to go away. A fun side game is to make private bets on how many times they will *ding* in a quest -- sometimes, you'll get surprised with a flawless run.

A bigger issue is lack of DPS (DR breaking weapons). If you PUG out raid spots alot, carry a few gimp lowbie DR breakers (8-12ml metalline of PG) to gift to noobies. I've been doing that lately.

[petegunn]

when you going to cap creasy?

Creasys' on hold for the minute 'forgiveness is between them and god its Creasys' job to arrange the meeting" or " A man can be an artist at anything, food or whatever if you’re good enough at it. Creasy's art is death, and he's about to paint his masterpiece"!

[rjedi]

Shroud crafted hp item

(part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)



hmmm, i have had some trouble getting into shroud because of this item....
guess what for you people out that there that unlimited supply of ingredients great! but this should only be a req. for raids that are above the shroud level as us new people that are starting dont have piles of ingredients

and yes i am probably glad i did not get accepted into those raids, level 17 monk with 345ish hp no shroud item and proud :)

[LordArkan]

I'm amused by this concept of everyone magically having access to Minos, considering that it is NOT in:
Gianthold
Demon Sands
Vale of Twilight
Delera's

Guess I should go reroll my account, since like a fool I spent thousands of TP on packs that are considered essential and didn't buy a pack for a single item within. :D



I do understand the point of this thread, I just find the specifics to be unrealistic.
That said, I did do a Tear of Dhakaan run last night and our rogue dropped partway through, so we picked up another... who promptly died in his first encounter. Curious, I checked their myDDO page... and found a pure rogue with Con 6, dual-wielding vicious weapons. -.-

[Waukeen]

pete, you are on point as per usual.

paper tigers, squishies, whatever you want to call them drag down any quest or raid, unless there is just one of them in the raid, then they are kindof an entertaining dying clown act, while me and pete sends over/under tells.

we all have run into these people before and even tried to give advice to the 6 con rogue or <150 hp capped sorcs out there.

I can see how the fortification thing might take a bit of learning to catch on to (3 step drops in gianthold are quick lessons), but it is a hit point = life game. Games with this basic concept have been out for decades (thing FFI and Dragon Warrior, or PnP old school if you wish)

What I am getting at is that the concept: hp = how long I will live is common knowledge to nearly everyone, even those who have never played a game using it.

If you like your punter of a character and think he only needs 250hp at cap because he "is an uber range threat," well prepare to be laughed at, at best; added to the liability list at worst.

[petegunn]

hmmm, i have had some trouble getting into shroud because of this item....
guess what for you people out that there that unlimited supply of ingredients great! but this should only be a req. for raids that are above the shroud level as us new people that are starting dont have piles of ingredients

and yes i am probably glad i did not get accepted into those raids, level 17 monk with 345ish hp no shroud item and proud :)

345 isn't that bad for a level 17 really the shroud crafted item isn't a prereq to run these raids its a bonus to atain. What comes first the chicken or the egg? even monks need crafting

[Waukeen]

I'm amused by this concept of everyone magically having access to Minos, considering that it is NOT in:
Gianthold
Demon Sands
Vale of Twilight
Delera's

Guess I should go reroll my account, since like a fool I spent thousands of TP on packs that are considered essential and didn't buy a pack for a single item within. :D

No, it means you should go the AH and buy a hvy fort item. There are numerous at lvl 13 for <10k plat if you look. a simple hvy fort at lvl 11. barring that, medium fort is lvl 7, or 4 on an outfit/robe. just do something instead of running out there naked.

Or, as has been stated numerous times... 1) Run relic of a sovereign past. 2) get a nightforge gorget with the adamantine ore.

Its F2P... so stop complaining and cover your fortless shame

[petegunn]

I'm amused by this concept of everyone magically having access to Minos, considering that it is NOT in:
Gianthold
Demon Sands
Vale of Twilight
Delera's

Guess I should go reroll my account, since like a fool I spent thousands of TP on packs that are considered essential and didn't buy a pack for a single item within. :D

I do understand the point of this thread, I just find the specifics to be unrealistic.
That said, I did do a Tear of Dhakaan run last night and our rogue dropped partway through, so we picked up another... who promptly died in his first encounter. Curious, I checked their myDDO page... and found a pure rogue with Con 6, dual-wielding vicious weapons.
-.-

Oh! come come lord stop feeling sorry for yourself I don't blame you for not having the orchard ad pack I find it quite unexciting , but you can get friends to farm taps for you and there is alternatives to the heavy fort (belts cloaks robes etc) . You don't have to be the poor little victim you know, unless you choose to be so.

Remember this isn't about new players versus veterans basically its about gimps and players who do not fulfill their role in any party. And building gimps isn't exclusive to new players only.

[LordArkan]

Ah, but the HP totals that people have described also include the +HP from Minos. You're not going to find heavy fort and false life on the same item, and you run out of slots eventually. :)

Also, stop being presumptuous- my characters HAVE been keeping up on fort items. Sad that you're more interested in insults than discussion.

(Edit: This was directed at Waukeen's "Its F2P... so stop complaining and cover your fortless shame")


pete- Wanna farm some taps for me? :D

[Elaril]

Everyone arguing against higherr hitpoints and the incorporation of a heavy fort item into your gearset, please favorite this thread.

Then, when you get myddoed in game and subsequently declined from groups...before you start yet another thread about the evils of my ddo and start bellyaching about "oh why oh why did they decline me, my gear is UHB3ERZ 3hL33tZ"...come back and re-visit this thread, you'll have the answer to your question.

[Waukeen]

Ah, but the HP totals that people have described also include the +HP from Minos. You're not going to find heavy fort and false life on the same item, and you run out of slots eventually. :)

Also, stop being presumptuous- my characters HAVE been keeping up on fort items. Sad that you're more interested in insults than discussion.

(Edit: This was directed at Waukeen's "Its F2P... so stop complaining and cover your fortless shame")


pete- Wanna farm some taps for me? :D

Fair enough, redacted. :D

[LordArkan]

Fair enough, redacted. :D

And my apologies for the snark. :D

[petegunn]

And my apologies for the snark. :D

You two lovers book a room over on Kyber come on guys this is Thelanis!!!

[Bilger]

Ah, but the HP totals that people have described also include the +HP from Minos. You're not going to find heavy fort and false life on the same item, and you run out of slots eventually.

Electric Haze GFL of HF belt not likely to get but there is a item with both:D

[Krag]

I'm amused by this concept of everyone magically having access to Minos, considering that it is NOT in:
Gianthold
Demon Sands
Vale of Twilight
Delera's

Guess I should go reroll my account, since like a fool I spent thousands of TP on packs that are considered essential and didn't buy a pack for a single item within. :D

1. Buy 20 tapestries from AH.
2. Get yourself a guestpass.
3. ??????
4. PROFIT!

[Waukeen]

You two lovers book a room over on Kyber come on guys this is Thelanis!!!

I miss you too pete. I will be back after Tuesday.

Til then here is a screenshot of the Paul Bunyon build I've been working on for 26 years, and my babe that laughs at us all. That's crazy guy isn't the other king, he's more of a kick-a$$ duke.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6088/halloweenwi.jpg

notice my red beard of hvy fort; they made me leave my +5 great axe of gr plant bane with the doorman.

[Strik3r]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6
Greater false life
Shroud crafted hp item
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up
Minos helm from the orchard
Starting con stat of 14+
Heavy fort

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.


i completely agree....but u need to run shroud al ot of times to get shroud crafted hp or con items.....and con should be 14+ for any class except for pally's who literally need all stats!!....my first thf lvl 20 pally has 482hp w/o breaking a sweat and i mean im a pally for gods sake(who is feat, stat and enhancement starved!!)...and have 482hp...my thf pally has 12 con so in he end he would have 462hp....and all this is easily achievable...no gs stuff and can easily bypass 500..if i put more effort into it.

[calavel]

11 can be tough for the first toon of a new player. I personally make sure that nearly all my toons have 100% fort at level 6 (mod fort item, since 90% of my toons are warfrogs). At 11 you can make excuses, at 15 you can't.
Agreed. Please consider the fact that new players don't have a million gold at level 11, which is the lowest price I've seen a lv11 heavy fort belt go for yet (don't get me started on the rings...). My rogue was lucky enough to pick up a medium fort belt at 8 or 9 and that's only because I got lucky with the market vendors. After a couple of elite runs, the importance of fort quickly became obvious to me (I first assumed it to be a tank thing mostly), but you can't have what you can't afford...

Nevertheless, getting heavy fort is my #1 gear priority at the moment. It's a lot of HP and deaths saved in the long run.

[Strik3r]

Agreed. Please consider the fact that new players don't have a million gold at level 11, which is the lowest price I've seen a lv11 heavy fort belt go for yet (don't get me started on the rings...). My rogue was lucky enough to pick up a medium fort belt at 8 or 9 and that's only because I got lucky with the market vendors. After a couple of elite runs, the importance of fort quickly became obvious to me (I first assumed it to be a tank thing mostly), but you can't have what you can't afford...

Nevertheless, getting heavy fort is my #1 gear priority at the moment. It's a lot of HP and deaths saved in the long run.

oh yeah agreed...100% fort is a must and doesnt even need to be mentioned...plus its not that hard...get minos legens and u are all done

[petegunn]

I miss you too pete. I will be back after Tuesday.

Til then here is a screenshot of the Paul Bunyon build I've been working on for 26 years, and my babe that laughs at us all. That's crazy guy isn't the other king, he's more of a kick-a$$ duke.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6088/halloweenwi.jpg

notice my red beard of hvy fort; they made me leave my +5 great axe of gr plant bane with the doorman.

I like how the girls glass is bigger than yours ;) such is the price these days to get pictured with two numpties ^^

[LugnutEU]

Relic on casual is pretty easy to solo on most classes, and you can grab enough adamantine to get the choker in one run.

[Srozbun]

Agreed. Please consider the fact that new players don't have a million gold at level 11, which is the lowest price I've seen a lv11 heavy fort belt go for yet (don't get me started on the rings...). My rogue was lucky enough to pick up a medium fort belt at 8 or 9 and that's only because I got lucky with the market vendors. After a couple of elite runs, the importance of fort quickly became obvious to me (I first assumed it to be a tank thing mostly), but you can't have what you can't afford...

Nevertheless, getting heavy fort is my #1 gear priority at the moment. It's a lot of HP and deaths saved in the long run.

You don't have to have lots of gold or be level 11. Just farm Relic of a Sovereign Past. It will yield 15 adam ores. 9 will be sufficient for a heavy fort necklace. If you can solo or dual it great, you will both get heavy forts in no time. If not, try to make friends with someone higher level than you to walk you through it. You don't even need to complete the quest to get the necklace, and you can run it on casual. Don't pug it though. Pugs I've been in that do it tend to have dbags that run ahead in the mines, snag all the ores, then either try to sell it or build worthless **** with it while complaining of being critted.

[Dazalarian]

No. There is absolutely NO excuse not to have heavy fortification after level 15.

Sure there is, I got heavy fort only like 50% of the time after level 15. Other other 50% I have haggle +15 instead :D

-Daz

[petegunn]

One of these monks will be in your raid tonight (with no heavy fort) can you tell which one it'll be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_824uz96q_Y&feature=related

[Chai]

I been playing my healers a lot recently and i've been noticing you guys going down quicker than a virgin on prom night. So for all you powder puff girls is this hard to achieve?

Con stat item +6
Greater false life
Shroud crafted hp item
At least one toughness feat and the enhancements to back it up
Minos helm from the orchard
Starting con stat of 14+
Heavy fort

As a general rule I draw the line at 400hp for a level 20 melee character, anything under that and you're a fecking liability. While some skilled players may be able to run with fewer hp from my experience the majority cannot (part 4 and 5 of the shroud spring to mind)

I'm gonna call it here basically you guys are a joke i'm sick sore and tired of you and i'm going to go outa my way to avoid you like the plague. If I create a raid or a party you're not getting in, pike your own lfm's.

Please toss this on the sheist pile of other OP who have also listed the same exact items one can obtain in order to improve their HP. I got 3 things to say on this.

1. Most of the noobs you are ranting about do not bother to read the forums, so they will never see your post. Your rant will be seen by everyone who already knows the things you are saying. Basically you are preaching to the choir.

2. Selective grouping for the win. Cant hang with the froob invasion? Dont.

3. Keep in mind we used to run shroud at level 12. 400 hp is a plus, but not required for a full raid. It may be required for higher end content, but shroud is a mid level raid that can be done with one higher end group nowdaze. This speaks both for and against your rant. Its for it in the sense that there is no reason why newbies cant have the crafted items they need, but speaks against it in the fact that they will need to start running it obviously with no shroud gear to begin with. Rogues and bards with a level of fighter and 14 con will hit 375 or so for hp at 20 sans shroud gear and monks will be fairly close to 400.

[petegunn]

Chai you are so predictable, when someone posts anything with common sense, you're the one who arrives and starts ranting. Must you provide a counter argument for everyone who posts a thread? I don't rant I make logical statements.

Where is your evidence to back up your statement that none of the noobs read the forums, in addition, my debate! not rant wasn't targeted at the so called froobs in gerneral. Reading comprehension for the win dearest chai, yet again you see only what you want to see so you can counter "rant". I'd say its the only thing you're good at but I'd be lying wouldn't I?

[Chai]

Where is your evidence to back up your statement that none of the noobs read the forums, in addition, my debate!

Evidence or it didnt happen? - you call me predictable? LOL

*Yeah ill get right onthat 1280p video that clearly shows...I cant even type this and not laugh while doing so. :p

All The evidence you require is clearly in the fact that these threads about hp and heavy fort happen once per hour, daily, every single time some self proclaimed vet fails a raid. Is there any shortage of pileons with 250 hp and no fort yet? Clearly by now there should be if your message is reaching anyone, other than the people who already know.

[petegunn]

Evidence or it didnt happen? - you call me predictable? LOL

*Yeah ill get right onthat 1280p video that clearly shows...I cant even type this and not laugh while doing so. :p

All The evidence you require is clearly in the fact that these threads about hp and heavy fort happen once per hour, daily, every single time some self proclaimed vet fails a raid. Is there any shortage of pileons with 250 hp and no fort yet? Clearly by now there should be if your message is reaching anyone, other than the people who already know.

These threads happen every hour and day eh? I know and you know that's a slight exaggeration on your behalf.

You state your opinion like it is the word of god, where is this researched evidence that new people do not read the forums?

[Razcar]

1. Most of the noobs you are ranting about do not bother to read the forums, so they will never see your post. Your rant will be seen by everyone who already knows the things you are saying. Basically you are preaching to the choir.
But the new players that DO come to the forums might see posts like these, and maybe understand why they keep dieing repeatedly in quests.

Saying that, here is a suggestion about how to bring the good word to the unwashed newbie masses, for anyone that feels like it. In your DDO client, enter this (or something like it) in your chat window, line by line:

/alias ;P1 "/a Public safety announcement: Just like you can score a critical hit on a monster, so can a monster do onto you."
/alias ;P2 "/a Critical Hits are the second largest cause of young adventurer deaths (just after tipping over sleeping beholders)."
/alias ;P3 "/a To counter critical hits equip items that have the "Fortification" power."
/alias ;P4 "/a Fortification comes in Light, Medium and Heavy and protects against 25%, 75% and 100% critical hits respectively."
/alias ;P5 "/a Find and equip the highest Fortification item your level allows, today, and you'll live longer (or rather, die less)."
/alias ;NewbAlert ;p1<P>;p2<P>;p3<P>;p4<P>;p5

Now when you're passing the Harbor or the Marketplace (or Korthos for that matter, although that might be too early), write ;NewbAlert and in the Advice channel will be seen:

"Public safety announcement: Just like you can score a critical hit on a monster, so can a monster do onto you. Critical Hits are the second largest cause of young adventurer death (just after tipping over sleeping beholders). To counter critical hits equip items that have the "Fortification" power.
Fortification comes in Light, Medium and Heavy and protects against 25%, 75% and 100% critical hits respectively. Find and equip the highest Fortification item your level allows, today, and you'll live longer (or rather, die less)."

[blitzschlag]

heh, i clearly should log on more. always fun to see pete enraged ^^

maybe i'll buy another char slot and roll a 6 con drow rogue for you ;)

[Chai]

These threads happen every hour and day eh? I know and you know that's a slight exaggeration on your behalf.

You state your opinion like it is the word of god, where is this researched evidence that new people do not read the forums?

Absolutism sucks, as do literal interpretations of everything everyone says. Sarcasm is the way of the internet. Welcome to the gray area. Your skin must be this thick to enter.

Example: Researched evidence? I just died laughing. My ghost is typing this...

I just posted in two other different threads than this one regarding heavy fort, pileons, level 20s with 200 hp etc. Its not even 11:00 my time yet. :p

Seriously now, if you choose to rant on the internet, be prepared for heavy doses of sarcasm, in many forms including exageration and overstatements. Calling someone out for sarcasm on the internet is intentionally trying to be ironic. I cant think of any other possible explanation.

[Chai]

But the new players that DO come to the forums might see posts like these, and maybe understand why they keep dieing repeatedly in quests.

Saying that, here is a suggestion about how to bring the good word to the unwashed newbie masses, for anyone that feels like it. In your DDO client, enter this (or something like it) in your chat window, line by line:

/alias ;P1 "/a Public safety announcement: Just like you can score a critical hit on a monster, so can a monster do onto you."
/alias ;P2 "/a Critical Hits are the second largest cause of young adventurer deaths (just after tipping over sleeping beholders)."
/alias ;P3 "/a To counter critical hits equip items that have the "Fortification" power."
/alias ;P4 "/a Fortification comes in Light, Medium and Heavy and protects against 25%, 75% and 100% critical hits respectively."
/alias ;P5 "/a Find and equip the highest Fortification item your level allows, today, and you'll live longer (or rather, die less)."
/alias ;NewbAlert ;p1<P>;p2<P>;p3<P>;p4<P>;p5

Now when you're passing the Harbor or the Marketplace (or Korthos for that matter, although that might be too early), write ;NewbAlert and in the Advice channel will be seen:

"Public safety announcement: Just like you can score a critical hit on a monster, so can a monster do onto you. Critical Hits are the second largest cause of young adventurer death (just after tipping over sleeping beholders). To counter critical hits equip items that have the "Fortification" power.
Fortification comes in Light, Medium and Heavy and protects against 25%, 75% and 100% critical hits respectively. Find and equip the highest Fortification item your level allows, today, and you'll live longer (or rather, die less)."


SMDS (sudden melee death syndrome) can happen, unexpectedly, to your avatar. For just 50 cents a day, yes just 50 cents, your sponsored avatar can have the protection he or she requires to avoid SMDS. Please, your support will help hundreds of pileons accross all servers. If you call within the next 10 minutes, we will toss in this free picture of the person you are sponsoring....

This sounds like the beginning to one of those infomercials that used to run at 4am about sponsoring kids in some god aweful place.

[petegunn]

Sorry folks double tapped the submit button ;-)

[petegunn]

Absolutism sucks, as do literal interpretations of everything everyone says. Sarcasm is the way of the internet. Welcome to the gray area. Your skin must be this thick to enter.

Example: Researched evidence? I just died laughing. My ghost is typing this...

I just posted in two other different threads than this one regarding heavy fort, pileons, level 20s with 200 hp etc. Its not even 11:00 my time yet. :p

Seriously now, if you choose to rant on the internet, be prepared for heavy doses of sarcasm, in many forms including exageration and overstatements. Calling someone out for sarcasm on the internet is intentionally trying to be ironic. I cant think of any other possible explanation.

You didn't really laugh chai you just typed that to make yourself feel better and to fluff up your post. So chai I see you've now decided to change your bizzare claims about new people and their lack of perusuing the forums into sarcasim lol. Nice bit of backtracking there. Here try this on for size, perhaps my imagined 'rants' by you, are my way of expressing my sarcasim what do you think? Or is the only person allowed here to have a sense of humour you?

Do you know the difference between you and I? a lot of people who posted in this thread know me in game, I'm up front about everything I do because I do not fear the consequences of my actions in game nor here on the forum. If people chose to myddo me they'll get all my alts nothing is hidden. If you see the guild Amour Group yea thats me. You've taken the first step and enabled your green bar machine. I'm happy to see you finally recovered from that bullying your ego got with all that neg rep a while back. Perhaps in the not so distant future you shall come out of your shell and make your alts and guild available to the ddo community.

You know for such a 'ranter' I surprise myself by how many people tolerate me ingame and here on the forums.

[Xithos]

You didn't really laugh chai you just typed that to make yourself feel better and to fluff up your post. So chai I see you've now decided to change your bizzare claims about new people and their lack of perusuing the forums into sarcasim lol. Nice bit of backtracking there. Here try this on for size, perhaps my imagined 'rants' by you, are my way of expressing my sarcasim what do you think? Or is the only person allowed here to have a sense of humour you?

Do you know the difference between you and I? a lot of people who posted in this thread know me in game, I'm up front about everything I do because I do not fear the consequences of my actions in game nor here on the forum. If people chose to myddo me they'll get all my alts nothing is hidden. If you see the guild Amour Group yea thats me. You've taken the first step and enabled your green bar machine. I'm happy to see you finally recoved from that bullying your ego got with all that neg rep a while back. Perhaps in the not so distant future you shall come out of your shell and make your alts and guild available to the ddo community.

You know for such a 'ranter' I surprise myself by how many people tolerate me ingame and here on the forums.

Pete, the folks ingame tolerate you because you have a cool accent and a laid back demeanor. I guess your a pretty skilled player and work well in pickup groups as well :) You just got +1 rep from me because I found another use for this thread; I spent yesterday running a few shroud PUGs and I referred several of these 6-con 1-hit wonders to your thread when they asked why I declined them. I think its plausible that some of these newbs or noobz have no clue about the forum but its all good. I just brought the forum to them!

[Chai]

You didn't really laugh chai you just typed that to make yourself feel better and to fluff up your post. So chai I see you've now decided to change your bizzare claims about new people and their lack of perusuing the forums into sarcasim lol. Nice bit of backtracking there. Here try this on for size, perhaps my imagined 'rants' by you, are my way of expressing my sarcasim what do you think? Or is the only person allowed here to have a sense of humour you?

Do you know the difference between you and I? a lot of people who posted in this thread know me in game, I'm up front about everything I do because I do not fear the consequences of my actions in game nor here on the forum. If people chose to myddo me they'll get all my alts nothing is hidden. If you see the guild Amour Group yea thats me. You've taken the first step and enabled your green bar machine. I'm happy to see you finally recovered from that bullying your ego got with all that neg rep a while back. Perhaps in the not so distant future you shall come out of your shell and make your alts and guild available to the ddo community.

You know for such a 'ranter' I surprise myself by how many people tolerate me ingame and here on the forums.

I have tried to be logical with you, and it didnt work, so I will dumb my post down to the level of arguementation you are presenting me with, for one final attempt to get through to you. I am going to talk to you the same way you are talking to me in hopes that you will understand. I know you wont though, because doing so implies the willingness to do so. But whatevs, here goes.

Yeah, three days of debate earned me 6 months worth of neg rep, from the same three people, who skillfully mashed neg rep buttons like kids on a sugar high trying to get top speed on track and field, with the understanding that there will be no negitive consequences to them for it. It also earned me 10 times that number in PMs of people who agreed with me and clearly understood the issue, who didnt want to participate in the flaming and griefing of internet personas.

Just about everyone, including most of the people who have full green bars agree that rep is a ****** measuring stick, and is only good for the tools who cant handle being disagreed with on the internet to use to grief people. The fact that you even bring up rep as part of your repeated flaming attempts of me, after obviously self clowning by interpreting internet sarcasm as being completely literal, tells me that your arguement ran out of steam long ago, and you are tangenting to cover up your own oopsy.

There is one lesson I learned during my neg rep being trolled, and that lesson was that I dont need to continue to post responses with gotcha's in them to yourself and others who cant stand being disagreed with on the internet, when you do a good enough job of self clowning on your own. Everyone understood what I said, except for you, who clearly stumbled on the literal translation of internet sarcasm, and called for proof of an observation through research. Good job on thread #8,239 regarding pileons lacking HP + heavy fort, brilliant! Cool story bro, riveting tale chap! and all the other semi funny played out internet anecdotes that go along with this situation.

I have already made it clear that I wont continue to respond to you, which is what you prefer anyhow: Being able to last word me with a clear understanding that there will be no negative consequences for doing so, and getting little green pips from everyone who agrees with you.

What this all boils down to is: You not being able to stand being disagreed with is no fault of my own, or anyone else you choose to beef with.

Now stop walking on the lawn, and go clean your room.

[Waukeen]

Jebus Chai, you are the most negative nancy of a Wisconsinite I have met (and I lived there for the first 24 years of my life).

You say pete rants, is flaming you, is adding a chord of wood to a bonfire, etc.

He is correct in his basic assertations (easily)

You posted in a thread you thought was useless (sounds awfully like a flame run to me)

You twisted the thread into a wild assertation that no one that is new reads the forums. (I started forum research the first day I downloaded the game 2 years ago, and this is my only mmorpg) <--- debunked your theory :D

You are the one getting angrier while he is having a pint laughing.

Grow up or chill out. (old fashions are always good to take the edge off in WI)

And telling people to take the internet lightly, dear lord....

[Chai]

Jebus Chai, you are the most negative nancy of a Wisconsinite I have met (and I lived there for the first 24 years of my life).

You say pete rants, is flaming you, is adding a chord of wood to a bonfire, etc.

He is correct in his basic assertations (easily)

You posted in a thread you thought was useless (sounds awfully like a flame run to me)

You twisted the thread into a wild assertation that no one that is new reads the forums. (I started forum research the first day I downloaded the game 2 years ago, and this is my only mmorpg) <--- debunked your theory :D

You are the one getting angrier while he is having a pint laughing.

Grow up or chill out. (old fashions are always good to take the edge off in WI)

And telling people to take the internet lightly, dear lord....

The basic message I am delivering is grow a thicker skin. Everyone else clearly understood what I was saying through sarcasm, and one person takes it literally, and goes off their chain telling me to prove it through research lol. When absolutists make these kinds of comments, hilarity ensues.

I am hardly angry, as this situation is more laughable than anything else - just pointing out facts. Cant stand to be disagreed with? Probably shouldnt OP in an MMO game forum - this is a fair enough observation.

[petegunn]

Dearest chai, it is with regret that I have read through your last post directed towards me and learned that we are not to be friends anymore. It was never my intention to stand up to you in such away that you felt intimidated into pulling the plug on our dialogue.

You make the assumtion that I am frightened to post threads that may draw criticisim. I believe I have proved that to be another fallacy of yours.

You make the assumption that I will not debate anyone who disagrees with me. Fallacy number two on this one post alone.

Ready for fallacy number three? You make the assumption that my skin is not thick. Having a thick skin whilst not a prerequisite for military service it sure helps, run with me in game and i'll show you the true defination of thick skin. I'll make an assumption here and presume you haven't done a days service in your whole life.

You cry 'oh no hes flaming me so i'll flame him' I could go through your posts and paint the town red highlighting flames with justification. Whereas you would be hard pushed to find anything I've replied to you and say that it was worthy of the honour of being called inflamatory material. This alone provides evidence that I am not frightened to post threads or reply to persons who post on them. Futher debunking this myth that you keep spouting 'absolutisim' the last time I heard that term was last of the mohicans.

[Chai]

Instead of standing by your point, we get more tangenting regarding a "me -vs- you" arguement, an effort to continue to draw people away from where this topic fails, repeatedly. While I wont respond to your attempts to draw me away with offers of entertaining khyberesque drama, I will use logic to point out why this and other rants about low hp continue to fail.

1. Its played out. There are lots of threads on this, and the number of pileons in raids is growing, not shrinking. The end result I stated is occurring. No demographic research and number crunching of stereotypical gamers necessary - mere observation skills the majority of the community has will show you this.

2. We used to do Shroud at level 12 with far worse gear and stats than we have now, on elite, and succeeded, repeatedly. Nowdays complacency has set in to the point where we cant roll a full group of 20s in there and complete unless everyone, including the d6 classes with no toughness enhancement, have more than 400 hp?

While I agree that its an overall good thing to grab as many hp as possible, I dont agree that people have to have this number to start raiding an upper mid level raid we used to do at level 12, which they need to do to craft their 45 hp item anyhow.

3. Is the mentality of DDO going the way of WOW, EQ, and other tier level raiding games, where if you dont have X and Y you cant possibly get Z? It never used to be this way before, and theres only one semi new raid in the game since then. Replacing skill with gear is a failure on the players here and not the game (yet) as only the toughest epic content in the game was built for players who are kitted out with end game gear. If you are talking epics I might see your point, but Shroud, VOD, Hound, and even TOD to an extent dont require fully end game kitted toons. If you do the math, most level 16 and 17 D6 and D8 classes dont have 400 hp as of yet, and they run shroud just fine.

If you want to post your disagreement, fine, but please address what I stated, point for point, rather than tangenting off on "me -vs- you" personal rants.

[Missing_Minds]

Fact: we did shroud at 16 without all the extra uber gear we have now.
Fact: we did it at 14 once it was figured out.
Fact: we didn't die much at all.

*looks at this continued ranting dribble*

Conclusion: New players need to be educated on the reasons of why certain stats and items are good in game, NOT yelled about in forums where they seldom show up.
Conclusion: Level 20 vets who are failing may need to brush up on their skills due to DA making things easy.

[Tarnoc]

2. We used to do Shroud at level 12 with far worse gear and stats than we have now, on elite, and succeeded, repeatedly. Nowdays complacency has set in to the point where we cant roll a full group of 20s in there and complete unless everyone, including the d6 classes with no toughness enhancement, have more than 400 hp?

While I agree that its an overall good thing to grab as many hp as possible, I dont agree that people have to have this number to start raiding an upper mid level raid we used to do at level 12, which they need to do to craft their 45 hp item anyhow.

so this statement is very true we USE TO but thier isa few differences those USE TO folks were also long term vets who had years of farming already so although you say subpar gear we really werent that sup par compared to the f2p whos farmed/piked to 20 on someones TR coattails......wat you are also forgetting is that yes we USE TO want to spend hours in shroud as it was new....after 180+ completions on most of my toons i no longer wish to go thier but can always use more of the game breaking gear from thier.....so 20 mins in shroud is acceptable to me.....if the people with 6 con no hps no gear piked to lvl 20 want to do shroud maybe they should band together and do it and they can spend the hours of fun we had wen shroud came out.....

so your lvl 12 argument doesnt really hold much water.........

P.S. also if we nip the 300 hp toons in the butt to thinking they need more hps for shroud maybe we wont have them coming into TODs or even epic content with barely 300 hps and expecting to be fine because of people saying "318 hps ona evasion toon is fine" and its not wen in epics evasion is almost worthless ona non dex based toon

[Chai]

2. We used to do Shroud at level 12 with far worse gear and stats than we have now, on elite, and succeeded, repeatedly. Nowdays complacency has set in to the point where we cant roll a full group of 20s in there and complete unless everyone, including the d6 classes with no toughness enhancement, have more than 400 hp?

While I agree that its an overall good thing to grab as many hp as possible, I dont agree that people have to have this number to start raiding an upper mid level raid we used to do at level 12, which they need to do to craft their 45 hp item anyhow.

so this statement is very true we USE TO but thier isa few differences those USE TO folks were also long term vets who had years of farming already so although you say subpar gear we really werent that sup par compared to the f2p whos farmed/piked to 20 on someones TR coattails......wat you are also forgetting is that yes we USE TO want to spend hours in shroud as it was new....after 180+ completions on most of my toons i no longer wish to go thier but can always use more of the game breaking gear from thier.....so 20 mins in shroud is acceptable to me.....if the people with 6 con no hps no gear piked to lvl 20 want to do shroud maybe they should band together and do it and they can spend the hours of fun we had wen shroud came out.....

so your lvl 12 argument doesnt really hold much water........


Years of farming what? Shroud came out in 2007. Game 2006.

Farming what? Vellah items that give 6 to stats, and titan items that give 6 to stats, a few more points of AC, and....+3 transmuters? Tempest spine loot runs? Nothing took years to farm back then. It was more like weeks. All this stuff can be had off the AH or brokers nowdays with minimal effort. You are actually agreeing with me here lol.

The level 12 arguement stands. You just literally backed up my point regarding complacency with:


after 180+ completions on most of my toons i no longer wish to go thier but can always use more of the game breaking gear from thier.....so 20 mins in shroud is acceptable to me.....if the people with 6 con no hps no gear piked to lvl 20 want to do shroud maybe they should band together and do it and they can spend the hours of fun we had wen shroud came out.....

Selective grouping will get you this. Too many people want the best of both worlds. They want to be able to grab the first 11 people that come along and plow the Shroud, but they also want these people to be geared correctly so their run will go off without a hitch. Cant have your cake and eat it too here, every time. You might get lucky sometimes but with the increasing newbie population, this will become more of a pipe dream.

This is an -or- situation and not an -and- situation.

You can selectively group, wait longer for the group to fill with players you know can rock and roll, then roll the shroud in 20 minutes.

-or-

You can grab the first 11 reasonably suitable people that hit up your LFM, and gamble that there arent too many pile ons in the group. You might win out sometimes here but its not guaranteed success. Failure is in the works if too many pileons joined.

Each time one of these 0 fort / 250 hp rants hits the forums, I can tell you that one of these happened, and failed miserably.

The reality is: players dont want to wait for anything - not to fill groups with good players, and certainly not for completion of the quest, and this complacency sets in. We are in "do it as fast as possible with minimal effort mode" and expect 3 month newbies to know what we know after 3.5 or 4 years. This sense of entitlement is what is causing the huge disparity gap between players that dont know and players who have been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt.

In short, ironically, with this entitlement attitude, we are actually making it harder on ourselves.

[Razcar]

A fact that many like to "forget" - if you wouldn't had been able to bug the pit fiend in both part 4 and 5 there would had been lots fewer completions the firsts months after the raid came out. And groups bugged the bosses in part 2 as well.

And while not everyone bugged all the bosses, many did. And all those "bugged" completions generated ingredients, which were made into Greensteel items, which made it much easier to complete the raid cleanly.

[Chai]

A fact that many like to "forget" - if you wouldn't had been able to bug the pit fiend in both part 4 and 5 there would had been lots fewer completions the firsts months after the raid came out. And groups bugged the bosses in part 2 as well.

And while not everyone bugged all the bosses, many did. And all those "bugged" completions generated ingredients, which were made into Greensteel items, which made it much easier to complete the raid cleanly.

Part 2 in the old school - shield wall plus firewall = win. Bunch of 12-14s used to roll this twice weekly. No need to replace strategy with gear when strategy works just fine. Yes, this requires more effort than the pull and smack tactics that are used nowdays, but if one or two people dont know the strat, it get messed up, impatient people /ragequit and teleport out, and the raid fails. Theres no need for these antics when it can be done by 6 people.

We never bugged the boss out in the last 2 parts. It just meant either we had three healers back in the day, or more heal potions. I used to run with the same 5 or 6 other melee, and we would buy heal potions in advance to hand to the healers after a well run raid. We solved our own problems and didnt blame others for lack of competence. We also didnt expect 3 month newbies to know all the stuff we know after playing the game for several years.

Adding to what I stated before...

The high level of entitlement + complacency is killing the raid potential, as I described in my previous post. Yeah I will agree there are pileons that are beyond hope, but this is due to their own attitude problems and a lack of willingness to change. This happens in any game. The majority of these people, however, when running with long time players with good standing learn through observation and asking questions. This requires presenting them with an atmosphere where they are not afraid to admit its their first run, not afraid to ask about gear, and want to learn however. I am a firm believer that if we do our part, most of them will do theirs.

I dont see this gear / skill disparity issue on raids I lead, or the people I usually run with lead. I see a knowledge disparity issue, that is easily resolved by doing a good enough job at cultivating an atmosphere where people learn how to run the raid if they dont know it, and thank us afterward for not being jerks like the last group of elitests they tried to run with. We still do the hazing thing where the newbie clicks the portal and wipes the group :p but at the end of the day, we turn froobs into halfway decent players and put them on the path to becomming possibe high end players. This also eliminates the need for any of us to yell at pileons, or come to the forums and add to the already long list of rants about lack of gear on high level players.

[Missing_Minds]

A fact that many like to "forget" - if you wouldn't had been able to bug the pit fiend in both part 4 and 5 there would had been lots fewer completions the firsts months after the raid came out. And groups bugged the bosses in part 2 as well.

I didn't run with people that bugged it.

But lets also add to that fact that Harry now actually casts mass hold.. monster? (so don't forget your FoM.)

And they changed Meteor Swarm. Before you could evade yourself to safety. I don't know how many times we'd setup rogues and rangers as a "wall" for the healers to stand behind safe from the fireball swarm. Firestorm greaves and fire pro pots were wonderful for keeping a non evasion alive from it.

These days... not so much.

[petegunn]

It appears we've became lost as this thread has meandered on, let me clarify.

1) This isn't a new guy bash, or rant its about level 20 characters not living up to expectations or their true potential. Nor listening or reading the communication that is put forward from the rest of the team.

2) This wasn't my shroud we didn't wipe, my fvs and two rangers carried the day, no real resources where wasted other than 2 pots in part four.

3) If only one new guy or so called veteran reads this and he says wow, that's my guy they're debating and they change or learn from it, then we have a result.

4) Yes a vast amount of players from all degrees of skill levels will not read the forums, does that mean we should totally stop posting ranting or debating? My answer see number 3.

5) Last but not least, cheers for everyone whose shown interest in this thread even people with opposing view points.:D

[Razcar]

I didn't run with people that bugged it.

But lets also add to that fact that Harry now actually casts mass hold.. monster? (so don't forget your FoM.)

And they changed Meteor Swarm. Before you could evade yourself to safety. I don't know how many times we'd setup rogues and rangers as a "wall" for the healers to stand behind safe from the fireball swarm. Firestorm greaves and fire pro pots were wonderful for keeping a non evasion alive from it.

These days... not so much.Yes bugging the raid made it very boring, like beating on portals for four parts with a little puzzle thrown in the middle, and many people avoided it due to that and of course since it was cheating. But it was done, on a large scale (no pun intended hehe).

Lol I remember people on Devourer getting into trouble with the GMs because they put up Shroud LFM's saying "Shroud run: no exploiting" - you were not allowed to mention the elephant standing in the middle of the room, even though they were only trying to avoid the elephant :rolleyes:

[Poe76]

"You must wait before you can add rep to Petegunn again"

Seriously, stated time and again in this thread, you can buy these items
on the AH, or farm for them very easily, just because a certain number
of peeps do not check the forurms does not make it true.

When we get a new guildy 1st question asked is, what gear do you need?
Do you have a minos? Do you have a GFL item and a Con 6 item?

This IS a widespread problem, you have a ton of peeps running around
without this gear, which is necessary for maximized survivability in raids
and other content, AND is not that difficult to acquire.

When we were running this "old school" way back when we had heavy fort items
did we not? I don't remember thinking...wow this is my first time running
this raid, by kraki I don't need heavy fort or the most HP I can get, let's run
in there and give it the old college try! lol

Just because we used different tactics doesn't make Pete's arguement any
less valid regarding gimping your toons with lame hp and no fort.

have a good one!

[Tarnoc]

Years of farming what? Shroud came out in 2007. Game 2006.

Farming what? Vellah items that give 6 to stats, and titan items that give 6 to stats, a few more points of AC, and....+3 transmuters? Tempest spine loot runs? Nothing took years to farm back then. It was more like weeks. All this stuff can be had off the AH or brokers nowdays with minimal effort. You are actually agreeing with me here lol.

The level 12 arguement stands. You just literally backed up my point regarding complacency with:



Selective grouping will get you this. Too many people want the best of both worlds. They want to be able to grab the first 11 people that come along and plow the Shroud, but they also want these people to be geared correctly so their run will go off without a hitch. Cant have your cake and eat it too here, every time. You might get lucky sometimes but with the increasing newbie population, this will become more of a pipe dream.

This is an -or- situation and not an -and- situation.

You can selectively group, wait longer for the group to fill with players you know can rock and roll, then roll the shroud in 20 minutes.

-or-

You can grab the first 11 reasonably suitable people that hit up your LFM, and gamble that there arent too many pile ons in the group. You might win out sometimes here but its not guaranteed success. Failure is in the works if too many pileons joined.

Each time one of these 0 fort / 250 hp rants hits the forums, I can tell you that one of these happened, and failed miserably.

The reality is: players dont want to wait for anything - not to fill groups with good players, and certainly not for completion of the quest, and this complacency sets in. We are in "do it as fast as possible with minimal effort mode" and expect 3 month newbies to know what we know after 3.5 or 4 years. This sense of entitlement is what is causing the huge disparity gap between players that dont know and players who have been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt.

In short, ironically, with this entitlement attitude, we are actually making it harder on ourselves.

guess you dont my ddo people much yes you can get transmuters of pure good of the ah cheap and 6 stat itmes and everything needed the problem is that anyone ive used my ddo on that has ****ant hps doesnt have the gear your specifying.,..and you lef tout the years of bloodstone famring and the years of planar gird famring and having +2 tomes which also droped like hot cakes wen the shroud first came out in the flagging quests also your leaving out gianthold and all the vorpals it gave out and the +3 tomes that were in said raid......if i see someone on my ddo whose made an effort to atleast famr themselfs some gear then hell yes...but i can if it wasnt against forum rules state a specific name of a person whose been lvl 13 now for 3 weeks joining groups to flag for shroud and wat ever because he needs greensteel so badly thats all he cares about too bad hes gaining zero exp and thus also gonna have an even harder time getting into the shroud.......so yes it is a catch 22.......but my best suggestion to any newb is to farm like we had to learn the older quests.....get gear or atleast plat to buy from the auction house and concern yourself with hps....all these posts ever do is enforce the newbs brain into thinking hps isa dump stat....AND IT IS NOT....higher con thus HPS is a good thing no matter wat quest and wat lvls

[Chai]

guess you dont my ddo people much yes you can get transmuters of pure good of the ah cheap and 6 stat itmes and everything needed the problem is that anyone ive used my ddo on that has ****ant hps doesnt have the gear your specifying.,..and you lef tout the years of bloodstone famring and the years of planar gird famring and having +2 tomes which also droped like hot cakes wen the shroud first came out in the flagging quests also your leaving out gianthold and all the vorpals it gave out and the +3 tomes that were in said raid......if i see someone on my ddo whose made an effort to atleast famr themselfs some gear then hell yes...but i can if it wasnt against forum rules state a specific name of a person whose been lvl 13 now for 3 weeks joining groups to flag for shroud and wat ever because he needs greensteel so badly thats all he cares about too bad hes gaining zero exp and thus also gonna have an even harder time getting into the shroud.......so yes it is a catch 22.......but my best suggestion to any newb is to farm like we had to learn the older quests.....get gear or atleast plat to buy from the auction house and concern yourself with hps....all these posts ever do is enforce the newbs brain into thinking hps isa dump stat....AND IT IS NOT....higher con thus HPS is a good thing no matter wat quest and wat lvls

Years of farming between 2006 and 2007 heh. Yeah since I dont see a Delorian parked in the lot with flaming tire tracks behind it I will have to take your word for that. **I left out the years of farming for xx item because that never happened, nor needed to happen.

Those things were not needed to run shroud in 2007, just like they arent needed now. I never had most of that stuff, and we rolled shroud twice weekly. I was using 1 +2 con tome that I got for hitting 1750 favor. I had a few +1 tomes on dex and str.

What you are saying actually agrees with me though - since gear availability is way better now than the +3 transmuters we were rolling with back then. People were using +5 shocking burst weapons as trash mob beaters in quests.

MyDDO sucks - its bugged on alot of toons, only shows you what people were wearing when they logged out, and you only really get an indication of possible pileon status.

[LugnutEU]

I just pointed a L20 rogue with 208hp who kept dieing in the shroud pts 4/5 to this thread, so hopefully it has a positive effect (and yes he couldn't understand why his evasion didn't save him)

[Krag]

Those things were not needed to run shroud in 2007, just like they arent needed now. I never had most of that stuff, and we rolled shroud twice weekly. I was using 1 +2 con tome that I got for hitting 1750 favor. I had a few +1 tomes on dex and str.

Just curious. Were you using same all-out tactic back in 2007?