An Open Solution to Raid Loot Distribution

[totmacher]

It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how do you distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (raid leader, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having everyone agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

It's been my experience that people tend towards keeping loot that drops in their name (that's fine and all, not my cup of tea) so I think we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem I'm trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

You might recognize these scenarios:

1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
2) Raid leader puts some condition on raid loot: you shouldn't have one already, you need the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, you should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for barb/ftrs, not off-tanks like pallies)
3) Person #1 puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Person #2 after a large plat sum is offered in secret

I've been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, everyone has their own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

So anyway, that's the problem but who cares because what's the solution? What I'm proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

So say a scenario like this occurs:

* Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
* Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

Just an idea, you could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what they were getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. I view it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...

[Sneakee]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.

Especially now that TR is in place, you will see more and more players grabbing gear that they are planning to use in the future.

If you have issues with raid loot distribution, blame the loot table mechanism that is in place, not the player.

[DoctorWhofan]

Argo Raid Loot Rule: All your lootz belong to the Mad God.


So I was told. :p

[totmacher]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.

Especially now that TR is in place, you will see more and more players grabbing gear that they are planning to use in the future.

If you have issues with raid loot distribution, blame the loot table mechanism that is in place, not the player.

i've always believed this is a lazy way of dealing with the "new" loot system in this game

if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed

[Eladiun]

I like this method...

Do what you want with your loot but expect to be judged by your peers. If your greed outweighs their need to bring you along on future raids don't come to the forums and cry about it.

[Newtons_Apple]

It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how do you distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (raid leader, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having everyone agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

It's been my experience that people tend towards keeping loot that drops in their name (that's fine and all, not my cup of tea) so I think we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem I'm trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

You might recognize these scenarios:

1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
2) Raid leader puts some condition on raid loot: you shouldn't have one already, you need the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, you should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for barb/ftrs, not off-tanks like pallies)
3) Person #1 puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Person #2 after a large plat sum is offered in secret

I've been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, everyone has their own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

So anyway, that's the problem but who cares because what's the solution? What I'm proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

So say a scenario like this occurs:

* Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
* Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

Just an idea, you could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what they were getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. I view it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...

This gives me the LoL's.

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Totmacher again."

In lieu of rep, please enjoy this informative video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q21iitT0VL4

[Yaga_Nub]

Argo Raid Loot Rule: All your lootz belong to the Mad God.


So I was told. :p

And you shall be rewarded for following this law!

[Angelus_dead]

1) Raid loot drops for Person #1, Person #1 stays quiet for a bit, Person #1 passes raid loot to Person #2 and drops group quietly
For someone to decide what to do with loot that dropped for him is obviously completely fine, except in the unlikely event that promises to the contrary were made beforehand.

It's technically possible for the developers to add a server-software mechanism to allow players to enforce such promises on each other (although they could only cover the few most popular possibilities). But it's quite hard to devise something that would reduce abuse without creating other opportunities for more of it, especially since it's so hard to define what "abuse" might be. The game's loose control of character resources further complicates matters (Who's paying for all those mana pots??)

A better way to approach it might be a way for players to enter an agreement into a text log others can view, and to associate the eventual distribution of items with that log, so that players have a way to demonstrate to each other that a person might have gone back on a loot promise. But it's still very hard to get that right.


* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."
It's hard to be sure that someone really looked at the contract though... and it feels bad to click through something like a Microsoft EULA just to join a raid.


So say a scenario like this occurs:
* Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
* Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."
Since that is a rather important case, it might be better for the developers to just create a special mode to enforce that condition...

Something like a toggle the raid leader can use before starting, and which is visible to other players, which disables directed reassignment in chests. Instead you can only reassign to a player you choose randomly. Furthermore, if you leave the instance any remaining loot is reassigned randomly to players still there.

That would mostly solve it, but leave behind a problem where two people try to wait out everyone else so they can assign by choice. (To avoid that you'd have to get even more fancy, and have a timeout on passing)

[ArkoHighStar]

I have lived by this rule for as long as the new rules have been in place, regardless of how others play

[stainer]

Hasn't A.O.K. been disbanded yet?

[lucas13]

Hasn't A.O.K. been disbanded yet?

their awesomeness is still around thank blah

[Sneakee]

if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed

That just makes no sense...if you're robbing a bank, you can safely assume that money will be in the vault. When raiding or doing loot runs (Icy Raiments for example), you never know what is going to drop (if anything).

So would you expect members of a raid in the Shroud to put up large scales for roll if only 1 drops? By your reasoning, the person who gets the scale is being unfair to the rest of the group by not putting it up.

Hey...but each to their own...if this system works for you and you can get people to subscribe to it when joining your raid group - more power to you!

[Angelus_dead]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.
That doesn't cover all the possibilities, though. Even if you accept (as most people do by default) that anything the server gives you is yours to control, that doesn't necessarily imply that anything assigned to you by other players should be equally under your control. There's the major problem of rolling for something you don't want to take.

Consider this example:
We have an Epic VON6 LFM with 5 barbs and 4 spellcasters. Three buddies or guildmates decide to join together, and they're 2 casters and 1 barb. The Shard of SOS drops for a caster, and he lets everyone roll for it, which all 6 barbs do. But his two caster buddies also roll on it, giving him triple the chance of winning as any other barb has.

That will feel unfair to the other 5 barbs, and possibly also to the guy putting it for roll. But can we say that the two casters didn't deserve that opportunity to gear up their pet barb? That's where it gets really difficult.

[WeaselKing]

So say a scenario like this occurs:

* Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
* Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."



Wouldn't it be best for everyone if AOK really did eat itself? I'm just saying. They are all jerks.

[Crann]

if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed

That chance at loot is being fairly and equally distributed among the raid members....by the computer. Everyone has an equal chance of rolling for it, and once its theirs it is theirs to do with as they please. What is best used by who is entirely too subjective.

In your example....you said SOS should go to the Fighter or Barb over a Pally? That is your opinion, though. There are those who would say it should absolutely go to the Barb, and those who say that its worth LR'ing your Pally into a 2HF'er if he isn't already. Who is right, is it the party leader who gets to decide?

TR adds a whole new dimension, in that anything may be useful to anyone.

That being said....If I don't need it, I'm not going to keep it if it looks like someone else really needs it. That is my decision though.

The Developers have decided how to handle loot distribution for us. Coming up with a rule that is different and informing a fraction of the gaming community about it doesn't make sense.

[Karranor]

I just don't understand why Need before Greed is so hard. I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.

If you get something you don't want or can't use, offer it up, through whatever means you feel like.

If you need it, loot it, and grats to you.

That's it. Gravy.

[Hafeal]

In lieu of rep, please enjoy this informative video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q21iitT0VL4

That was fantastic ... I like the Do You Wanna Date my Avatar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNyg1ftMIU&NR=1). I owe you a +1! :D

[Rav'n]

It's come up a couple times over the past couple of weeks as to how does Hefty Smurf distribute raid loot fairly without any centralized person (Hefty Smurfr, DKP system) having too much control of how raid items are divvied up. So how about having Hefty Smurf agree to something beforehand, before the loot even drops?

It's been my experience that Hefty Smurf tends towards keeping loot that drops in Hefty Smurf's name (that's fine and all, not Hefty Smurf's cup of tea) so Hefty Smurf thinks we should probably work under that premise. To be more specific, the problem Hefty Smurf is trying to frame is the typical situation when a group of players not cohesively bound by anything (AKA PUG) comes about...

You might recognize these scenarios:

1) Raid loot drops for Hefty Smurf, Hefty Smurf stays quiet for a bit, Hefty Smurf passes raid loot to Hefty Smurf and drops group quietly
2) Hefty Smurf puts some condition on raid loot: Hefty Smurf shouldn't have one already, Hefty Smurf needs the seal/scroll w/e first for a shard, Hefty Smurf should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for Hefty Smurf, not off-tanks like Hefty Smurf)
3) Hefty Smurf puts something up for a roll then decides to pass it to Hefty Smurf after a large plat sum is offered in secret

Hefty Smurf been guilty of #2 myself a couple of times but thinking about it now, it's not fair, because even as raid leader, Hefty Smurf has his own idea of what a fair loot policy is.

So anyway, that's the problem only Hefty Smurf cares because what's the solution? What Hefty Smurf is proposing is something like an open contract that you would agree when you either join or convene a party. Something that would be enforceable only in knowing who broke the contract...

So say a scenario like this occurs:

* Hefty Smurf is running a Hound raid and wants to make sure A.O.K. doesn't eat each other alive if raid loot comes up.
* Hefty doesn't have enough people in A.O.K. to run this Hound raid because they're either doing other stuff or trolling the forums or whatever.
* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"
* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Hefty Smurf goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

Just an idea, Hefty Smurf could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what Hefty Smurf was getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. Hefty Smurf views it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...



So.... I fixed it for you...

[Angelus_dead]

I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.
Suppose for example that I spent 8 major pots and 180 Heal scrolls to keep up a squad of S&B paladins while the other healer stood there with 37 mana and a CSW wand in his hand.

The truth is that DDO allows different characters in a group to make very different levels of contribution, so as long as that is possible there will be people who feel they earned it more than the others.

[totmacher]

I just wanted to open up discussion, one of the keys to a successful "raid contract" would be a couple of things I think:

simplicity
fairness
resistance to "exploits"
agreeability

Something that could basically be stated in a couple of lines but customized to the scenario you're talking about...a contract for epics would look something like:

Seal/Shards are yours, unless you don't want it. Then you have to put it up for a roll (no passing, no selling): The roll could be defined in two ways: 1) open to anyone 2) open to anyone that is JUST missing that component

That could basically be explained in about 3 sentences and is generally fair I think

[elraido]

If you didn't pull a certain item in a raid, blame your "roll" when you opened the chest. Just because someone got something that you didn't, doesn't mean they are required to change your diaper as well. They pulled it. If they want to leave it in the chest so no one gets it, they can do that. Yell at the loot Gods that you didn't it. Don't yell at the person who did. Personally, if someone wants an item that I pulled I put it up for a roll, d100 lowest wins. That is your second chance to favor the loot Gods. If you didn't win, then it wasn't meant to be. Just like real life. I didn't win the lotto last night. Just because I need it, does that mean I need to go yell at the winner, who might be a doctor, and say give me your money....you don't need it??

[Cyr]

Suppose for example that I spent 8 major pots and 180 Heal scrolls to keep up a squad of S&B paladins while the other healer stood there with 37 mana and a CSW wand in his hand.

The truth is that DDO allows different characters in a group to make very different levels of contribution, so as long as that is possible there will be people who feel they earned it more than the others.

While true this is hardly a compelling argument as I have only once been in a group where a group leader said to someone "Sorry X, but you were completely worthless on this raid and as such I'm not passing an item to you." If it goes up for roll even someone who was an absolute hindrance to the raid gets the item if they roll on it. At least this is raiding experience on Sarlona.

[totmacher]

I just don't understand why Need before Greed is so hard. I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.

If you get something you don't want or can't use, offer it up, through whatever means you feel like.

If you need it, loot it, and grats to you.

That's it. Gravy.

it's hard because people are not consistent within their own defined morals... i've seen so many raids where people that are consistent usually collapse under pressure when it comes to a hot item. rules are meaningless for 95% of raids, it's when it counts where they come in handy

[Gol]

I just don't understand why Need before Greed is so hard. I don't understand why anyone thinks they are entitled to other players loot.
"Need before Greed" is so hard because it doesn't work. When something drops under your name, or it gets offered up for roll, people (especially puggers for whom completions are rare) get greedy - end of story.

The entitlement comes from the purported "Need before Greed." While it is more common for "need" to be subjective, there are clearly times when it is not. One character may have a substantially higher "need" for an item, but because some other purely greedy jerks were allowed to roll, the character that needed it didn't get it. If you're suggesting "Need before Greed" works, you can't ignore the fact that the direct consequence of this principle means somebody else may be more entitled to your loot than you are. Otherwise, the system breaks down completely.

This doesn't apply to the Shroud, as somebody complained earlier, because 1) it doesn't bind, and 2) everybody has equal "need" for greensteel equipment.

[Belowme]

i've always believed this is a lazy way of dealing with the "new" loot system in this game

if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed

A:it doesn't matter who gets to the chest first, it's still going to drop loot for everyone who touches it. What one does with the loot that is under their name should be left to them.
B: stuff in real life is most certainly NOT split fairly. To use your analogy as an example, how many of those 12 robbers might meet "untimely" demises and have their share taken by one of their fellows? Would that share be split evenly amongst the survivors or would it be more of a "winner takes all" scenario?

Whats yours is yours is not a lazy method. It IS an easy method. Just because person A may not think it's fair that desireable loot dropped for person B else does not automatically grant them the right to declare person B's ownership null and void.

5 friends buy scratch off tickets. One of them wins. The winner happens to be relatively wealthy and bought the ticket in the spur of the moment, just for fun. The other four don't think it's fair, since they took the effort to go to the store and pay for a ticket and the winner doesn't really need the money anyway, and so the winner must divvy out his winnings to the others in the interest of "fairness".

These issues are a slippery slope that can be circumnavigated by simply letting the chips fall where they may, and moving on with life. Remember that D&D has always been about having fun with old and new friends, not spending time squabbling over loot. (Except where applicable to the storyline / RPing)

[Gol]

it's hard because people are not consistent within their own defined morals... i've seen so many raids where people that are consistent usually collapse under pressure when it comes to a hot item
Pressure reveals a person's true character - there is no collapse. Lack of pressure makes it easy to pretend to be something you're not.

[Gercho]

I agree with one of the earlier posts, you do as you want, i will judge you as i see fit.

[Eladiun]

Pressure reveals a person's true character - there is no collapse. Lack of pressure makes it easy to pretend to be something you're not.



So what your saying is people are generally bottom dwelling scum especially noobs and puggers. ;)

[lucas13]

Could you expand on your suggestions using one of the hot raid items atm ?

eg abbot gloves

[Angelus_dead]

While true this is hardly a compelling argument as I have only once been in a group where a group leader said to someone "Sorry X, but you were completely worthless on this raid and as such I'm not passing an item to you."
Of course it would be rare that the problem is so enormous and obvious that the leader actually takes the step of excluding someone from the roll. But that doesn't change the truth that when people think they've been contributing more towards the raid completion than someone else, they conclude they have a bigger right to the rewards. And they become unhappy when they see the loot go to someone who appears to have been less helpful.

It was particularly bad for (non-exploit) runs of the original Abbot raid version. All of the success of the mission hinged on the Clerics- and not just any Cleric build could handle it, either. It was really painful for the Cleric player to look around at the other 9-10 guys and consider just how comparatively little they had to do. The converse of that happens today if a non-boots melee joins TOD; that player feels bad accepting end loot because he didn't really do as much work for it, and is liable to not assert himself in rolling on rings.

[totmacher]

Could you expand on your suggestions using one of the hot raid items atm ?

eg abbot gloves

well here's a good case, I'd say the abbot having a better "contract" for specific items (the litany, gloves) would be ideal as opposed to the grab ass that happens when these items come up. gloves especially are pretty contested

[lucas13]

The converse of that happens today if a non-boots melee joins TOD; that player feels bad accepting end loot because he didn't really do as much work for it, and is liable to not assert himself in rolling on rings.

This is assuming, as usual, that we run ToD in Argo the same way you do in whatever server you play on. Taking out Suulo gives non-booted players a chance to be as useful as anyone.

[Entwhistle]

I propose at the end of a raid, the last room becomes a PVP area. Whoever wants something can kill the other person for it. If they can........

[Eladiun]

The converse of that happens today if a non-boots melee joins TOD; that player feels bad accepting end loot because he didn't really do as much work for it, and is liable to not assert himself in rolling on rings.


Those folks are already protected by the International Federation of Pikers, Local 75. All they need to do is send a tell to their local representative who will request the loot on their behalf.

[Eladiun]

I propose at the end of a raid, the last room becomes a PVP area. Whoever wants something can kill the other person for it. If they can........

Too many quotes....

We keep what we kill.
Two men enter one man leave.
He who breaks the law must go to the house of pain.

...must stop.

[Tarackian]

I will. Please do not ever think you or anyone else has rights to what I pull. It is my choice to give it up for roll. Your pathetic effort at peer pressure is lost on me and I would encourage others to do the same. Unless specifically staTed at the beginning of the quest it belongs to who pulled it. Why debate this? Why waste your time here like me. Don't covet my loot. Get your own. If I pull it again it will be up for roll.


I like this method...

Do what you want with your loot but expect to be judged by your peers. If your greed outweighs their need to bring you along on future raids don't come to the forums and cry about it.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Argo Raid Loot Rule: All your lootz belong to the Mad God.


So I was told. :p

Well done.

Btw Tot, not the boss of me.

[Eladiun]

I will. Please do not ever think you or anyone else has rights to what I pull. It is my choice to give it up for roll. Your pathetic effort at peer pressure is lost on me and I would encourage others to do the same. Unless specifically staTed at the beginning of the quest it belongs to who pulled it. Why debate this? Why waste your time here like me. Don't covet my loot. Get your own. If I pull it again it will be up for roll.

Thank you, for making my point.

[Yaga_Nub]

Pressure reveals a person's true character - there is no collapse. Lack of pressure makes it easy to pretend to be something you're not.

You mean the way that Tot pretends to be a man?

[totmacher]

Well done.

Btw Tot, not the boss of me.

go back to khyber!!

[Gol]

I will. Please do not ever think you or anyone else has rights to what I pull. It is my choice to give it up for roll. Your pathetic effort at peer pressure is lost on me and I would encourage others to do the same. Unless specifically staTed at the beginning of the quest it belongs to who pulled it. Why debate this? Why waste your time here like me. Don't covet my loot. Get your own. If I pull it again it will be up for roll.
That's fine. At least you're honest about Greed before Need.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It amazes me how many people come up with solutions for problems that don't exist.

You guys should run for political office. You're great at deciding what to do with other people's assets. :cool:

[Gol]

It amazes me how many people come up with solutions for problems that don't exist.I'm glad it's not a problem for you. It's a real problem on Argonnessen.

[Stormanne]

Best solution evah...

Don't let the players see what others get. Still make it so that it can be transferred, but keep the "fat lewtz" incognito. That way, no one is throwing a fit when that Sorc decides he wants to hang on to the Madstone Boots or the Rogue that wants to squirrel away a Sword of Shadows. You can't get mad if you don't know it's there. And if the person who gets it decides that they want to put it up for a roll, they tell the party and those interested can roll...

[Angelus_dead]

Taking out Suulo gives non-booted players a chance to be as useful as anyone.
That is obviously untrue. There may be ways those players can make a positive or even substantial contribution, but they're still not on the same level as the guys who actually caused the quest to get completed.

[Rubiconn]

I agree with many of the posters, if I pull something from a chest its up to me what to do with it, if I pass it to a guildie then that is what I choose to do, if I put it up for roll the only arguement should be if I pass it to someone who didnt roll highest. Part of the advantage of running with guildies is you do each other favors. Do I have to announce before doing a shroud run that I have agreed previously to pass any large scales to a guildie? Seems silly. It is after all just a game Im not going to come to your house and take stuff out of your living room because I killed a beholder.

[lucas13]

That is obviously untrue. There may be ways those players can make a positive or even substantial contribution, but they're still not on the same level as the guys who actually caused the quest to get completed.

As far as I am concerned, the guys helping get another shot at +4 tomes are as useful as any other player. Quests get completed thanks to a group effort dude.

[Krag]

* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."

I like this rule.

[dranreb]

if you go with 11 guys and rob a bank, and you get to the cash first and declare it's yours, they will kill u. stuff is fairly split in real life and just because people are too lazy in a game to deal with fake loot doesn't mean they should be unfair to people that contributed


Now that's the solution, Tot!!!

If you loot something you don't need, all 12 members are instantly transported to a PvP area. If the angry mob kills you before you exit, your raid loot drops, and the party can roll on it.

[totmacher]

Now that's the solution, Tot!!!

If you loot something you don't need, all 12 members are instantly transported to a PvP area. If the angry mob kills you before you exit, your raid loot drops, and the party can roll on it.

actually i'd love to have this option :)

[MithrilSoul]

Never had to deal with raids in DDO yet but from my experience in past MMO's, there is always going to be drama in this part of the game. No way to eliminate it entirely. IMO the best way to handle it is:

1. Person who forms the raid sets the loot rules.
2. Loot rules for the raid are stated *clearly* by the leader, and *agreed to* by the other 11 members, before anyone steps foot in the door.
3. If you don't like the loot policy the leader has decided, don't join the raid. Simple as that. Go form your own raid, then you can set the loot rules to be whatever you please.


If anyone who, having agreed to the rules, somehow at the end violates one of those rules, you blacklist them completely. Spread word not only throughout your own guild but among allied/friendly guilds that that person is not to be trusted.

The key is communication. If the rules are clearly stated, and every player sees every other player clearly agree to those rules before the run begins, I have never seen any problems arise when a run is at its conclusion. The only time I have seen problem is when you have a raid where nothing is explicitly stated about the loot ahead of time, and so then you beat the final boss and its time for the looting to begin and you have all these with people with differing presuppositions of how they *thought* the loot was going to be handled and when it ends up NOT getting handled like they thought it was going to get handled, they get all ticked off.

[totmacher]

Never had to deal with raids in DDO yet but from my experience in past MMO's, there is always going to be drama in this part of the game. No way to eliminate it entirely. IMO the best way to handle it is:

1. Person who forms the raid sets the loot rules.
2. Loot rules for the raid are stated *clearly* by the leader, and *agreed to* by the other 11 members, before anyone steps foot in the door.
3. If you don't like the loot policy the leader has decided, don't join the raid. Simple as that. Go form your own raid, then you can set the loot rules to be whatever you please.


If anyone who, having agreed to the rules, somehow at the end violates one of those rules, you blacklist them completely. Spread word not only throughout your own guild but among allied/friendly guilds that that person is not to be trusted.

The key is communication. If the rules are clearly stated, and every player sees every other player clearly agree to those rules before the run begins, I have never seen any problems arise when a run is at its conclusion. The only time I have seen problem is when you have a raid where nothing is explicitly stated about the loot ahead of time, and so then you beat the final boss and its time for the looting to begin and you have all these with people with differing presuppositions of how they *thought* the loot was going to be handled and when it ends up NOT getting handled like they thought it was going to get handled, they get all ticked off.

This is pretty much what I'm proposing, I don't think it's unfair to have everyone on the same page loot-wise for a raid

[Malazarti]

This is really just about running with raids with people that are all on the same page. It's extremely clear from this thread that you have 2 groups of people who play and raid in DDO but on opposite ends of a loot-ethic spectrum. Those that ascribe to the more gambler/merc type of "your loot is your loot (no rulez)" type of ethic, and those that would like everyone putting in raiding time to get geared up as fairly as can be agreed upon in as reasonable and efficient an amount of time as loot luck provides. And there are those that will run with either camp and not care either way (i.e. they are fine to agree to raid loot rules _and_ abide by them honestly, but will also run with no rules and not care either way).

To the far left, it gets more altruistic and to the far right more self-centered/selfish. By human nature (and nurture) everyone will fall somewhere in between but if they feel they can commit to either sides loot rules honestly and not get mad/stressed/upset about it, then that's the group they should raid with. Traditionally these groups of people would eventually shakedown into various guilds that fit their personality, but DDO has a lot more smaller guilds which means more pugging, thus this comes up as an issue over and over.

Basically, the two groups of people on the far ends should simply not raid together. IMO, that is the simplest way to keep things running smoothly.

I don't think there's an easy way to handle it fully, but I think laying out the loot rules as soon as someone joins your raid and asking if they are agreeable to it is a good start. If they don't like it, they can leave and raid with someone else.

I also think the developers could put a little more RAID-UI into the game to help the situation. While the current loot system certainly sounds better than what it was previously by far, even still the current tools are completely geared towards being self-centered or selfish. They could put some switches in that allow a flip towards more options (need before greed sort of idea). As a contrast, the Token Systems used in WoW are a huge+ in the right direction in this regard on many levels (do your raid time and buy the raid loots you want in bits and pieces, whereas DDO is strictly luck based).

[Eladiun]

Basically, the two groups of people on the far ends should simply not raid together. IMO, that is the simplest way to keep things running smoothly.


Which is why people hate pug raids...and try to build up a strong enough guild and group of friends to never have to pug.

[PopeJual]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned....

If you pull it, it's yours to do with it as you want. Keep it, give to guildies, put it up for roll...it's the player's prerogative.

Especially now that TR is in place, you will see more and more players grabbing gear that they are planning to use in the future.

If you have issues with raid loot distribution, blame the loot table mechanism that is in place, not the player.

If there's an agreement in place before the chest is open, people should be sticking to that agreement and they should be taunted and beaten for breaking the agreement.


And when abiding by the agreement is a condition for entering the raid, then I think this is a great idea.

[PopeJual]

I will. Please do not ever think you or anyone else has rights to what I pull. It is my choice to give it up for roll. Your pathetic effort at peer pressure is lost on me and I would encourage others to do the same. Unless specifically staTed at the beginning of the quest it belongs to who pulled it. Why debate this? Why waste your time here like me. Don't covet my loot. Get your own. If I pull it again it will be up for roll.

I think that's exactly what is being proposed here.

State ahead of time what hte loot rules are before people go in the quest.

Then you can either abide by the rules as you promised or you can be a big lying lier.

[Philam]

* Hefty puts up an LFM saying "Hound be prepared to run with The Best Pally Ever (tm)"


As a representative of Mr.Smurf, we have filed a grievance in the Supreme Courts for using his registered slogan without compensation to said party. Please forward compensatory damages to my client at your earliest convenience.

Thank you
Ph

[totmacher]

As a representative of Mr.Smurf, we have filed a grievance in the Supreme Courts for using his registered slogan without compensation to said party. Please forward compensatory damages to my client at your earliest convenience.

Thank you
Ph

i'm willing to settle for 30 sp

[Philam]

i'm willing to settle for 30 sp

Agreed.

Ph

[toughguyjoe]

Here's what I do with raid loot. I look at it. If i need it, I pull it. If i don't need it, I put it up for roll. If its a VERY specific Item I monitor who is rolling on the tiem and if someone that *I* feel has only questionable need for the Item, I ask them their plans for it. I make a desciion based on thier response, usually giving it them, since the people I commonly raid with roll for things they can use.

I never sell things from the chest. I never pass things to someone with no roll. I find it uncouth to simply give an item I don't need to someone else, even if I play with that person every day and I know they need it. While it may benefit me for a player I run with to have an item their class needs....It does not beneift either of us if People don't want to run with us due to shady loot practices.

[Aerilyn]

Here's what I do with raid loot. I look at it. If i need it, I pull it. If i don't need it, I put it up for roll. If its a VERY specific Item I monitor who is rolling on the tiem and if someone that *I* feel has only questionable need for the Item, I ask them their plans for it. I make a desciion based on thier response, usually giving it them, since the people I commonly raid with roll for things they can use.

I never sell things from the chest. I never pass things to someone with no roll. I find it uncouth to simply give an item I don't need to someone else, even if I play with that person every day and I know they need it. While it may benefit me for a player I run with to have an item their class needs....It does not beneift either of us if People don't want to run with us due to shady loot practices.

This is my policy as well & I have regretted it a few times now as I have later wished that I traded said item to a guildie or taken the item myself as the character has evolved but to date I have never been banned from a Raid or had my guild banned as the practices from 1 guild member will be seen as a way the rest of his/her guild will treat raid loot.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That's fine. At least you're honest about Greed before Need.

Sorry Gol, but when you want to tell someone else what they should do with loot that fell for them you give yourself the greed label.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

* Here's the critical part: Someone joins the LFM and Hefty says, "Ok bud, we're running this under the 'Standard Cab Fare Rules', you can find these on the forums. Basically it means if you have an item you don't want, you can't pass it, you either have to loot it or put it up for roll."
* Pug #1 goes "well what if I pass it anyway?"
* Hefty goes "A.O.K. will mock you endlessly on the forums for violating a contract where you knew exactly what was going on beforehand."

Just an idea, you could get pretty fancy with it but the gist of it is that someone would know what they were getting into before loot came up for roll or even the raid was done. I view it as small overhead for a loot system that is too malleable for the inconsistently selfish...

I think trying to make a formal forum rule about this is silly. Asking player to agree to a system as soon as they join group is fair game. If they don't keep their word, don't group with them again, easy enough. Mocking them in the forums is a bit ignorant as well, and we know what will happen to that thread.

[Hendrik]

Remove the ability to trade Items in a Raid Chest.

Now there is no way anyone can tell anyone what to do with things that belong to them.

No fancy, special forum rules people have to agree to, IF they read the Forums.

Nobody telling Raid Member "X" that they do not need the item above their name.

No 'underhanded' trading or back room deals.

Simple.

[Vorn]

Sigh, another one of these threads...that they keep coming up is a sign of Blah knows what.

I was once in a mostly guild that I was not a member of run way-back-when on my rogue pally and the kds dropped in von6 to a wf caster. He put it up for roll. I rolled a "99" and had to watch as 10 other folks rolled for it because a bard from a guild really wanted it. Clearly if one of her/his guildmates had won it, it would have been reassigned to her/him.

Now a days I pretty much rarely run in pugs and only really play one character. In a nice channel run, there's some discussion about who can actually use anything that's pulled. I like helping out folks and am happy to re-assign anything I have little or no need of. If not I put whatever I can't use up for roll on a wierd dxx and whoever gets it--good for them, I don't care (though 22 tod runs and I have yet to pull a ring of any type, sigh).

My 2 cp.

[WeaselKing]

Agreed.

Ph

You should have at least demanded 3 gp, 30 sp just isn't enough!!

[WeaselKing]

I think trying to make a formal forum rule about this is silly. Asking player to agree to a system as soon as they join group is fair game. If they don't keep their word, don't group with them again, easy enough. Mocking them in the forums is a bit ignorant as well, and we know what will happen to that thread.

I think the idea is to have it written out where it can be viewed by anyone interested thereby relieving the necessity of going over it in detail with each new pug.

However, my philosophy is your loot is your loot do with it what you want. That having been said I find it discourteous to offer an item for roll and then to not give it to the person who won that roll.

In my opinion, it is never the person who looted the item that is the problem, it is the person who didn't get it and ******* and moans about what the person who did loot it does with it that is the problem.

[TheJusticar]

I just wanted to open up discussion, one of the keys to a successful "raid contract" would be a couple of things I think:

simplicity
fairness
resistance to "exploits"
agreeability

Something that could basically be stated in a couple of lines but customized to the scenario you're talking about...a contract for epics would look something like:

Seal/Shards are yours, unless you don't want it. Then you have to put it up for a roll (no passing, no selling): The roll could be defined in two ways: 1) open to anyone 2) open to anyone that is JUST missing that component

That could basically be explained in about 3 sentences and is generally fair I think

I think it's not the player's laziness, to be honest. It's the developers's laziness to develop such solution. How about the tried and true: dialog pops up asks "loot" or "pass" then the system prompts all players in the instance whether they want to "roll" or "pass" the system itself rolls for the players (so avoids any cheating) and assigns the item to the winner. I've seen it work in many games. It's not perfect, but it would be a much improved way to avoid loot drama.

[Ughh]

give it all to UGHH it will be dispersed in an orderly and expediate fashion. Then all you maggots can drop and give me 50.....K plat

[Gunga]

Why are you looking at everyone else in the shower?

Just worry about what you got and move on.

[Atenhotep]

With so many people now copying my Raid Train (TM) this topic came to mind when I jumped in a group to help some friends do Abbott in their own Raid Train (TM).

At the end some guy was making the argument (because I guess he wanted something that somebody else was getting?) that anybody should be allowed to roll on anything regardless of if they can presently use it, and regardless of somebody in the group who could use it due to True Reincarnation.

I began to politely voice my feelings and that guy basically just told me to shut up.

So immediately afterward I began typing up a Raid Loot post (similar to Tot's) based on my rules in the original Raid Train (TM) but got really bored halfway through. I just recognized that I have a blacklist and that guy earned a place on it. I don't need to preach to a bunch of people who are, I assume, adults and capable of making up their own rules.

Moral of the Story: I think the raid loot rules I use on Aten's Raid Train (TM) are the best but they may not be for everyone. Those who disagree are welcome to not run raids with me. And if I join a raid group with UNUSUAL raid loot rules and/or people who practice greed or are in any way dishonest, regardless of how BIG of a HERO they think they are, I simply do not ever group with them again.

I think every adult here also has that same power.

And thanks to the Darwinian system of in game reputation those people who are unusually dishonest heroes often end up being blacklisted by the greater community at large as well.

In Conclusion: I hope every Raid Leader is just as capable of leading the raid as s/he is in expressing raid loot rules which the group respects and agrees to without the need for somebody to hold their hand for them with a forum post expressing what should be fairly obvious.

And if you don't like it - don't group with them.

The End.

[PopeJual]

Sorry Gol, but when you want to tell someone else what they should do with loot that fell for them you give yourself the greed label.

Telling someone what they should do with their pretend loot is a far cry from telling someone what they have to do with their pretend loot.

If someone wants to be an ass, they can make that choice.

If someone else doesn't want to let them into the party for future raids, that person can also make that choice.

[justagame]

To me, the very idea that a raid leader should have some say over what other people do with their loot is repugnant. I have to very simple principles, similar to what many others have articulated:

1. The person who pulls loot has the right to do as they wish
2. If I think something cheesy or blatantly unfair has transpired, I am free to make future grouping decisions accordingly

For example, I once solo-healed Reaver on elite (no big accomplishment, I know), and when the napkin was pulled, after folks had rolled (and I had won), the person who won passed it to a guildie -- a rogue, for the INT. I decided on the spot that was the least raid heal that person would ever receive from me. (And, of course, I promptly forgot the name within a few months :lol: )

In the example #2 from the OP, if some raid leader had arbitrarily decided that a fighter or barb could roll for an SOS, but my THF-specced Pally was somehow less worthy and could not roll on it, I would likewise decide never to run in a raid led by that person. Wow. I don't have words for how unbelievably arbitrary and unfair a system like that would be.

People can do what they want with loot they pull. But I enjoy this game when I group with fair, reasonable people (and I am happy to report that this applies to the majority of people I've grouped with). So when someone acts grossly unfairly, it is likewise entirely my right not to contribute to their groups.

I think people generally get this -- and despite the occasional minor quibble (like when a rogue loses a Tharnes roll to another melee), that most people understand that if you act unfairly with loot, it will come back to bite you in some way. This results in a system that works most of the time with players who actually care about their reputation, IMO. I guess what I'm asking is, does this need fixing?

[Gol]

Sorry Gol, but when you want to tell someone else what they should do with loot that fell for them you give yourself the greed label.
You missed my point entirely.

99% of the server claims to support the "need before greed" concept. My point, though, is that this implicitly dictates that somebody else may have a greater claim to something with your name on it than you do. As has been abundantly obvious since EU came out, people are completely content to claim "need before greed" until something has their name on it, then it becomes the "mine and screw you" loot policy.

Do I fault them for it? If they claim one but practice the other, absolutely. It's hypocrisy. Do I fault the guy that comes in saying "loot that drops for me is mine no matter what"? Not at all, but I boot him from the party if I have the star. At least he's honest.

I support "need before greed" myself. I've put Tharne's Goggles up for roll on my battle clerics, passed off +3 cha tomes to Sorcs and CC bards on my tanks with intimidate, you name it. Problem is my experience says 99% of the rest of the server simply will not sack up when the loot drops with their name on it.

I only expect others to do the same if they claim the same "need before greed" policy. And not because I'm greedy, but because I expect them to honor their word.

[Lithic]

...people are completely content to claim "need before greed" until something has their name on it, then it becomes the "mine and screw you" loot policy.

Gol, the above made this thread worth reading all by itself :D

[samthedagger]

I have no opposition to people wanting to set raid loot guidelines before the raid begins. That way, everyone knows what the expectation is, rather than an argument or hard feelings arriving at the time of looting.

However, I feel that if there is no raid loot policy set forth at the beginning of the raid, you should not feel entitled to roll for anything on someone else's loot drop. If there is no policy set forth at the beginning, then it's a free-for-all. The default is that all players can do what they want with loot that drops for them.

So if you are running a raid just because you are trying to get item X and you want a "fair loot policy" in place, it is up to you to request such a policy so that everyone is on the same page. If there are people in the group who don't ascribe to your notions of "fair looting" and they refuse to follow your ideals, you are welcome to drop and find another group. You do not have the right to roll for something if no such loot policy was set forth at the start. You can ask to be allowed to roll, and kind souls may give you one, but unless it was agreed to by all beforehand, your 100 or 1 doesn't guarantee you anything.

I myself will generally go with the majority of the group regarding raid loot. If the party leader says he expects everyone to put items they don't intend to use up for a roll and everyone seems okay with that, that's what I'll do. If the party leader says that he and five of his guildies who are also in the raid are going to pass things to each other, then I reserve to right to pass my stuff to my guildies or even save it and give it to guildies who didn't take part in the raid. As long as everyone agrees ahead of time on the policy, I abide by it.

Also, I think it is a good idea to stipulate the rules for rolling if rolling is the raid loot policy. I myself prefer when everyone who wants the item (and has a use for it) makes a roll themselves. I don't like the idea of someone else, raid leader or otherwise, making a roll for someone else. I've also seen both "highest number wins" and "lowest number wins" or even number X automatically wins. It isn't common, but if it does happen, it is confusing and unnecessary. Party leader should state "highest roll wins" before any rolling is done if that is the intention.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

It's kinda baffling to me how some people still get bent about raid loot distribution these days. I'm not talking about the new person that has been only playing the game for six months, either. I'm talking about people who have been playing for years.

I can understand(at least a little bit) how someone new to the game would get really excited about how loot gets passed out.. They haven't seen much of it.

I'm a need before greed kinda person. However, I guess I tend to take that concept further than other people might like, apparently.

One example being from a run last week... One of the str based TOD rings fell, and I rolled on it with the other 5 melee's in the party. I won, and the ring was passed to me.

However, it was one of the barbarian rings.. And the only barbarian in the party was rolling for it as well. ( (Not one of the prc's currently in game, so I guess there is a good arguement to be made that it isn't actually a barbarian ring, it's an anyone ring. I guess.. And the barb wasn't anyone I knew, or had run with before. )

I handed it over to the barbarian, recalled, got my end reward, and left party. Apparently, the second highest roller was very bent about this.

This isn't something that I'd even think twice about in a guild run. It didn't even occur to me until the other person started asking about it that other people would even care or object. And the fact that they made sure to bring it up in the next semi-pug raid I joined up that they were in, means they felt pretty strongly about it.

So ya.. I guess having a raid loot policy set out in a place that people could refer too would be a good thing.

[Thucydides04]

Here is my raid loot policy: If I pull it, I do what I want with it. If I roll on it and you pass it to me, I do what I want with it. If you pull it and put it for roll and I want it, I roll on it. I pay my subscription every month, nobody else does. Run the raid again if you didnt get your loot. It's not that hard. Oh and stop expecting people to give you their loot. I understand common sense and need before greed and all that stuff, but with TRing anything is pretty much fair game for any toon.

[incontinetia]

The only problem that I have is the giving a piece of loot to a friend or guildy. Im not sure on this because it gives percentage chance benefit to 1 or more people over all the others. If a guild is only missing a couple of spots, I readily understand that they may pass something to a friend. There are just so many variables now to consider.

I agree with most players here, need before greed, pull it and do what you want with it. Just dont be stupid or greedy about it. Its your choice, but remember that you may become excluded fom some raids and you might not even know why later. Some players dont voice their anger here, they use their guild/joinchannel and tell all how they got burned.

One last note- in the past few days ive done 4 raids. Only 3 pieces of loot dropped and 2 of them were treasons from 1 chest. It would be nice to see alot more loot drop for everyone more often. Would this not make people more excited to roll new toons, then buy more slots, more hearts of wood, mana pots, hairdoos etc? I could go on but I think Turbine is making people frustrated for no reason and missing out on alot of money for their digital shinies.

[Chappy51]

I love these threads. I am new and still have not run a "real" raid. However after reading all these posts I could easily get the impression that when we get to the last chest, it is empty for everyone but one person. Eleven others drool and pace back and forth like jackals trying to rip a chunk of meet off the carcass. I keep reading the argument of "what about the 11 others that helped you to get there?". Well what if I wanted to pass something to a good close personal friend who I don't know....Just happens to be one of those 11 others, who saved the day at the very end, allowing us to get said chest anyways? I suppose I would be burned at the stake..... If you go by half the comments in these threads. ;)

[regor8]

you should only roll if there is greater need (sword of shadows for barb/ftrs, not off-tanks like pallies)


I was going to keep reading but i saw this and decide this thread is not worth the effort . pallies are just as much a tank as a barb or fighter and can benifit from Sword of shadows just as much. no one can tell a person what benifits thier player , and i hope you tell party joiners this before you run a quest so they can leave.

[Greydeath]

Something like a toggle the raid leader can use before starting, and which is visible to other players, which disables directed reassignment in chests. Instead you can only reassign to a player you choose randomly. Furthermore, if you leave the instance any remaining loot is reassigned randomly to players still there.

Sad that we had this at one point and that it was removed - typical turbine :rolleyes:

[Ughh]

do what you will with what you pull, I don't really care.......but if it drops for you...just remember.....IT ALL GOES TO UGHH :)
proffesional piker and all around gimp

[PopeJual]

To me, the very idea that a raid leader should have some say over what other people do with their loot is repugnant.

Then don't participate in any raids where the raid leader is asking people to abide by simple guidelines for equitable loot distribution.

Simple solution.

[lostdrow]

Raid loot some be a end reward only.
but not like your 20 run.
on runs from 1 to 19 the 1st stot should be for a raid item drop.

You would still have to run the quest a lot of times to get the item you need but you get some type of riad loot and this way no one cry.

2nd wound be on normal the 1st spot in end reward, hard 1st and 2nd spot in end reward, and so on and so fore.

[Gunga]

Then don't participate in any raids where the raid leader is asking people to abide by simple guidelines for equitable loot distribution.

Simple solution.

You are never going to tell me what to do with my loot and have me respond positively.

Ever.

Ever.

Don't bother.

Simple.

[Eladiun]

Do I fault them for it? If they claim one but practice the other, absolutely. It's hypocrisy. Do I fault the guy that comes in saying "loot that drops for me is mine no matter what"? Not at all, but I boot him from the party if I have the star. At least he's honest.

Agreed. This is the whole deal in a nutshell. Hypocrisy. You see a lot of people say "what I pull I keep." but you don't see them finish the statement by saying " and because I believe this I don't roll." They want it both ways...which breaks the system The reason "need before greed" works is the implied trust that if I give up something today I have the chance at something tomorrow. If that trust is broken...well we have all seen that.

Like I said earlier do what you want but don't think the other 11 people will not judge you for your actions. It your RIGHT to do what you want with your pull and it's their RIGHT to judge it by their standards and beliefs. This keeps the system healthy (and is why no changes are needed)...the violators are soon running by themselves or with their own kind.

[totmacher]

You are never going to tell me what to do with my loot and have me respond positively.

Ever.

Ever.

Don't bother.

Simple.

gimme ur loot

[TheJusticar]

gimme ur loot

No Tawt doesn't need your luut right now. So put it up for roll, pls.

[totmacher]

I was going to keep reading but i saw this and decide this thread is not worth the effort . pallies are just as much a tank as a barb or fighter and can benifit from Sword of shadows just as much. no one can tell a person what benifits thier player , and i hope you tell party joiners this before you run a quest so they can leave.

you obviously didn't even read up to that part lol

[PopeJual]

You are never going to tell me what to do with my loot and have me respond positively.

Ever.

Ever.

Don't bother.

Simple.

I don't think that anyone should be telling you what to do with your loot.

I just think that everyone should agree ahead of time on how they want to deal with loot once it drops. If I could count on people who pass loot to friends instead of putting it up for a roll to not /roll on loot themselves, I'd be delighted.

My problem is with the people who /roll for loot and then pass it to people who didn't win the roll and with people who /roll for loot even though they won't put their unwanted loot up for a roll themselves.

Either roll on other people's loot and put your unwanted loot up for a roll yourself or don't roll on other people's loot.


...and for people who say that they pass loot to friends/guildies but that they don't /roll on loot when it's put up for a roll, I call BS.


Edit: this post wasn't actually directed at Gunga in particular, just at the people who want to act like leeches in a raid's end chest. I know that Gunga acts decently in raids - he just wants to act decently because he wants to and not because he's told to do so.

[Hendrik]

You are never going to tell me what to do with my loot and have me respond positively.

Ever.

Ever.

Don't bother.

Simple.

Come on Gunga, all they want is for you to agree that someone else knows what is best for your character and know what should be done with loot with your name on it.

It's all about being 'equitable'. It's fair that someone else knows what is best for you, right?

;)

[Yaga_Nub]

Come on Gunga, all they want is for you to agree that someone else knows what is best for your character and know what should be done with loot with your name on it.

It's all about being 'equitable'. It's fair that someone else knows what is best for you, right?

;)

The Mad God knows whats best for EVERYONE!

Give us.........HIM your lootz!

[Mystyque]

I personally believe this TR'ing is just an excuse for people to pull all the named items in the game. Face it alot of people out there are named item collectors that just want the item to say they have it period. I have heard 100 people say that if they pull the sword of shadows or the seals or shards or whatever for it while they are on clerics, casters, bards, rogues, monks that they are going to TR into something that can use it. A few people i know would do that and make a great toon. But lets face it if I am on a caster or cleric or rogue or monk although i dont play monks lol I am putting anything for the SOS up for roll as i already have several times. Because realistically if i TR a toon i dont want to waste my time and the loot i already have for the cleric or caster or whatever to redo a new toon into a fighter or whatever i want to make my caster or cleric better than it is.

The only problem i have with the loot system are the noobs that think the loot they are pulling will actually make them a good player. LOL yeah ok and A.O.K. is the nicest guild most caring and respectful guild in the game. I wouldnt be in it if that was true.

For example. Titan Raid is my biggest pet peave. I run 1 toon through titans as many times as i can to get 1 item the chattering ring. But it baffles me to see noobs going for that item without ac that actually matters.

For example fighter ranger build types in chat. Man i really need that chattering ring to help with my AC. When asked what his ac is currently at he states 39. *** 39 ac are you kidding!! or the Ranger build that says i need this ring to help boost my AC and when asked what his self buffed ac is sitting at. mind you +5 to barkskin and tempest 3. 46 AC he states.

I mean come on I am not an AC master by any means but i am still learning and if your Toon cant self buff into 70-76 ac with out bard songs, recitation or anything else added there really is no need to be trying to get AC gear. Especially if you cant self buff your ac to at least a 60 to 65.

But I see so many count less noobs pulling loot thinking its going to make their toons so much more uber because and extra +2 to attack or +3 to ac or something stupid. That my problem with the loot system is that TR gives every one the TR excuse of pulling useless loot that will probably sit in there bank and collect data dust.

[v8gremlin]

I considered whether this was the right place to respond to our ranger friend, but think it is appropriate and on topic.

Yes I told said ranger that, imo, the caster should've been given the option for the ring, simply because it is really the only caster item from that raid, so if you want a caster in your group the least they could expect is a chance at rolling on it.

Raid loot has become a very interesting point of late as stated above, with TR etc making the grey line even greyer. Truth be told i was in a reaver and a fav. soul looted madstone boots to ev1's horror. This fav.soul then explained he intended to TR to a ftr, and his guildie backed him up on this point. So i added him to my "friends" list, didn't make a scene and he has since TR'd to a ftr. Question having past life fav.soul yeah maybe, but he did TR and is no longer on my "friends" list.

If you group with pugs these days all i can suggest is maybe make a statement at the start on what the plan is for raid loot, if someone disagrees, they can drop. If they stay and still do their own thing, then they should be blacklisted and the word spread of that type of behaviour. Most regular raiders will give the item to the appropriate classes (or the ones that will benefit the most from an item) because they are generally in groups with people that would do the same.

More directly to the unnammed ranger (well unnammed on here anyways)...I told you what i thought of you looting that ring and i also queried a few guildies and others on the current thoughts of raid loot. There wasn't 100% support for my call that it was wrong, but the general feeling was that it was. What suprised me was that a few people mentioned this said ranger having done similar things in the past with other raids.

FYI - Harassment is defined as "a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such a person and serves no legitimate purpose".
Lets address this quickly
a) your the one who has continued with this...your lfm you put up post the raid loot discussion in game, which was actually a direct attack on a number of guilds rather than the said individuals
b) your bio....
c) your post in this thread...
There has only been 2 real occasions where i have mentioned your name to other people, one is with a bunch of guildies not long after the incident when I brought the situation up to discuss our guild's position on it, including what they thought of my reaction to you (which I admit got inflamed due to you attitude). The other occurance was when i saw you in a raid with a number of people i regularly raid with, including a guildie or 2. I put a message in guild chat along the lines of "...... <-insert your name here->...will take what he wants regardless of others opinions. That is not harassment btw, that is me giving guildies a heads up. Ironically one of my guildies has a soft spot for you and said you'd changed.....fair enough, I haven't run with you since so wouldn't know.

You getting booted from a certain guild....funny thing is I know who questioned your place in that guild, but even though a lot of people thought it was me, it wasn't.

As i have told you before, drop the obsession and it goes away eventually, if your not the bad person people will realise this. If you keep stuff like your current bio going, then your only backing up a previous posters suggestion of maturity....

Have fun, and cya in game, or not

[v8gremlin]

There ya go making friends again lol

[v8gremlin]

Here's an example for ya too mr ranger uber ness....

wiz18/2rog (trapmonkey caster) - has tharnes goggles as end reward - puts em up for roll. Why? Yes consolidates spot/search into one item, but the true benefit (true seeing) is wasted on this toon, so would be a better item for melee types.

And one of my monks has bracers of the glacier too (and has them equipped 99% of the time), but I waited till my 20th end reward to get these, there is no way I would roll against a caster type for that item.

Need before greed......

[BlackyLigar]

you can only asses your own needs. i've been weari ngthe ring ever since and i've even gone so far as to buy the sorewoods to upgrade it.

if you cannot see why a ranger would use it. make a ranger and find out. see if you can get one of these.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn244/forumzz/ScreenShot00018.jpg
after that, "stop online extortionists."

[v8gremlin]

Im not sure what your showing us here? My ranger has 697sp so aint that much different, or are you trying to show off a completion of an elite quest? I haven't tried it solo on elite, but have solo'd same quest on norm a few times when i wanted the tempest necklace. You clearly have a need to feel superior so lets consider something (and this is an old toon built quite a few mods ago that im comparing to yours), and im certainly not the best ranger out there....

sp 697 v's 729
hp 457unbuffed vs 429 (raged?)
AC - 41unbuffed - 38 unbuffed?
saves unbuffed 26/30/20 vs 21/29/13
umd 35 unbuffed - you?

Yes i have minII bow, and MinII rapier and Lightning Strike rapier and wear 3 greensteel items....

Oh wait your toons female......your always gonna be right (im married i know these things)

[BlackyLigar]

and when you do, dont forget to do it 100% f2p and without transfering anything from any other toon or account. hell, just forget about using AA slaying arrows too since there was no slay arrow at the time i looted the ring.

tho, now i would see an even greater use since each time you cast it it uses 50 sp. #^%#@#$^ beholders!

so maybe you want to see the ss of my solo'ing it on hard? had to use a few(highball few) potions and re-entered once.

[BlackyLigar]

what's the name on that toon? hmm?

<---- cuz has never seen it.

[toughguyjoe]

you can only asses your own needs. i've been weari ngthe ring ever since and i've even gone so far as to buy the sorewoods to upgrade it.

if you cannot see why a ranger would use it. make a ranger and find out. see if you can get one of these.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn244/forumzz/ScreenShot00018.jpg
after that, "stop online extortionists."

So in a group of people i've never heard of(I PUG A LOT) you got 72 kills in an amrath quest, under an unspecified time to complete and an unspecified number of times that people in the group died.

Unimpressive.

[Sweetpea]

Oh wait your toons female......your always gonna be right (im married i know these things)

LMAO!!!!!! glad you learnt quickly

[Naash]

So in a group of people i've never heard of(I PUG A LOT) you got 72 kills in an amrath quest, under an unspecified time to complete and an unspecified number of times that people in the group died.

Unimpressive.

No use arguing the fact,this one IS the tallest midget.

[toughguyjoe]

No use arguing the fact,this one IS the tallest midget.


Its true, Arcane Archer could almost be called the "Big Fish, Little Pond" Build.

[Gleep_Wurp]

its my loot and no you still cant have it.the real solution is make it a guild rule and only run in guild raids.guild is to small to run full guild raids? too bad so sorry.i hate loot nazis

[Hendrik]

The Mad God knows whats best for EVERYONE!

Give us.........HIM your lootz!

Can't argue against Yaga.

;)

[lucas13]

I'm not talking about that raid that lasted 56 minutes :p
I was talking about the PuG raid that Jades joined where the "poster" said "Bring some Awesome" and that normal Shroud run took 56 minutes!

I felt for Jades that day. hahahaha


I am, Rameses!

I still feel crappy bout that 56 minutes abbot fiasco tho :(

I blame Phinas !

[Rameses]

I still feel crappy bout that 56 minutes abbot fiasco tho :(

I blame Phinas !

Don't we all?

[Eladiun]

Well, I guess I'll be moving my toons off Argo, than.


That just might be one of the funniest threats I have read in a long time.

[Khestral]

That just might be one of the funniest threats I have read in a long time.

I was reminded of the boy walking off with his basketball under his arm myself

[Eladiun]

I was reminded of the boy walking off with his basketball under his arm myself

At least you can see that boy walk away...I put the odds on someone following through on moving all their characters at 1.5%.

[Gunga]

It's hardly a threat.

I've logged in a few times over the past 2 weeks. I have a few characters over there that I'd like to level and seeing Nick back and Blah active made me nostalgic.

Your squalking got my head straight, though.

Much thanks.

[Aspenor]

All of your loot belongs to me, even when I am not in that raid party to loot it. You are henceforth required to send me an e-mail and wait until I have the time to respond before raid loot is divvied up. If I forget to check my e-mail that day, you are required to sit in the quest, at your computer, patiently waiting for me to get off my ass and answer my e-mail.

You can send these e-mails to my account giraffeballs@****.com.

There ya go, problem solved.

[Khestral]

Sorry, Gol. I know you were trying to do something productive.

Best rule that can be agreed to is state it up front and stick to what you say.

Oh, and for the record, I have one person blacklisted and that was for sexual harassment.

Loot isn't a big deal to me, cheating and such is more a way to make me avoid bringing you into a party of mine, but I won't drop and run screaming if you're in someone elses. It is my choice to enjoy my game - not to have to grind my teeth the whole way through a raid.

[aldan]

Best way to deal with loot is ask about loot policy before joining a raid, or state what the policy is in the LFM.

Once you get started everyone should know what is expected, if they violate, its simple, put their name in your list of people not to group with.

Policy is defined by the host. Many different people have different rules. Our guild is very strict about this policy, if you pug in our guild and loot drops you might want, everyone gets a roll on it.

Just a thought to a very very old beat up topic.

[Sealsniper]

I could cite many many cases of random loot sillyness.

Sat we run a VOD, gloves of the glacier drop, a lvl 17 fighter with a 20 str (per myddo) loots his gloves of the glacier. Posts in party chat his winnings. I explain that those are for a caster, he says he will have to build a caster on the server. Explained to him that they bind to character, doesnt matter to me as :

1. I already have gloves, though felt bad for other caster, FVS and cleric who all wanted and really in VOD, outside main tank 2 casters and 2 healers do 90% of the work and spend all the resources.
2. I long ago figured if i dont pull something i need I probably wont get it.

I follow a simple rule now adays as I have seen it all. If i am in a channel or guild group and something drops i can't use on that toon I put up for roll.

If i am in a semi-mixed group and something drops i can't use or dont want (which is pretty much everything as I only need 2 or 3 items at this point VOD bracers, SOS, SOS shard, +4 tomes) I will put up for roll. If winning roll goes to someone who should not be rolling on item and is in my opinion more class specific for a party member who also expressed interest, going to that individual that raid items is semi-designed for over high roller.

Perfect example again, sun ran TOD run, warchanter Bard ring dropped for someone else in party, person throws up for roll, I seemed to be only person rolling on it, +6 cha +1 exceptional str, good ring for my sorc since no +7 cha rings...i win roll, ring assigned to me...very late roll comes in from Bard in group, not listed as what he/she rolling on. I wait to loot to determine which ring he rolling on, even though i won the roll, since bard ring, and he a bard and not my loot initially I pass on.

Again can have rules, policies in place, and peeps say they agree, but in the end when that special item drops, open season and most peeps fall away from initial agreement.

Again another game time example-I posted months back a bounty on bauble, my original sorc took 150+ weapons runs with 4-6 party members in group for posted bounty on LFM, 3 times bauble dropped, person who got drop looted even though they had posted and I had confirmed this was only a bounty run, if they did not want to accept bounty and pass item, I would prefer them to join other group or make own, as I was looking for bounty hunters out for my 3 scale bounty. They assured me they would respect the bounty and did not...

Recently I needed another bauble on my newer sorc, tried the bounty approach....500K bounty for bauble, cleric sends me a tell saying are you really paying 500K bounty, I state yes, he joins group, first run he pulls bauble...he passes and collects his 500K bounty. Everyone happy, and I have a little comfort, some peeps have morals and good judgement.

As mentioned in my book response attached, I have been burned too many times and just expect to have to do my own work, if someone pulls something and puts for roll and i need and win, great I am happy, I can cross that item off my list of needs.

seal

[toughguyjoe]

no one put it in my name sweety.

Please refrain from using "pet names" that may make female players uncomfortable. It borders on Heterosexual Sexual Harassment.

[WeaselKing]

Please refrain from using "pet names" that may make female players uncomfortable. It borders on Heterosexual Sexual Harassment.

Borderline? Heck, thats practically the definition.

[toughguyjoe]

Borderline? Heck, thats practically the definition.

Don't you have an EV6 to float away from?

;););)

[WeaselKing]

Don't you have an EV6 to float away from?

;););)

You hush.

Let's just say it is not a good idea to try to get me to talk to you in vent while I am running between bases, I already have as much stuff on my plate as my chemically enhanced brain can handle.

[WeaselKing]

ding

Like That?

B)

[BlackyLigar]

A ring of Thelis is better than an Existential Stalemate Item? Which of course on a ranger you could go say...Wizardy VI(loss of 25SP Vs. the Thelis), then Immunity to Poison, Immunity to Fear for second tier, and get the +6 wisdom as well as +10 Haggle/Diplo(not a big deal) but hey..its just a Tier II Greensteel.

However, I imagine the next thing that will be cited is the SR 22 which the ring gives its wielder, which is "JUST SO DERN UBAHR!!!!!"

"Oh btw. If you only have one "Map Pack" I would suggest themap pack with the Teleport Chamber map. Its fun and you can employ interesting strategies. I hope someone got the dooche humor I injected there.

If you were to only have "one" Adventure pack it would be the shroud. I assume you DO have Shroud, since you have greensteel bows. So like I asked. A ring of Thelis is better than as Existential Stalemate Item?

In the days of ToD Rings allowing +2 Exc bonuses to stats, I would say not.
"Existential Stalemate"
Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, major Healing Lore - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 & 2 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Supreme Power (Stalemate II), Shavarath High Energy Cell
DONE
***. are you just going to stare at my bows?

"JUST SO DERN UBAHR!!!!!"
saved me from hundreds of otto's dancing balls in the bastion of power. goes off quite a bit really. it's better than the desease imunity 19sr ring i was using for months.

casters can use the scroles that give +30 over +22. i dont have much use for charisma besides diplo and haggle ergo zero stats added to charisma and no points into umd.

[WeaselKing]

"Existential Stalemate"
Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, major Healing Lore - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 & 2 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Supreme Power (Stalemate II), Shavarath High Energy Cell
DONE
***. are you just going to stare at my bows?

"JUST SO DERN UBAHR!!!!!"
saved me from hundreds of otto's dancing balls in the bastion of power. goes off quite a bit really. it's better than the desease imunity 19sr ring i was using for months.

casters can use the scroles that give +30 over +22. i dont have much use for charisma besides diplo and haggle ergo zero stats added to charisma.

I am so confused is that a triple neg helm or a concordant oppostition one? It seems to incorporate parts of the description for both.

[BlackyLigar]

now where is that rolling eyes emote.....

[WeaselKing]

I neg repped this post because it was inflammatory and did not respect the contributions of another community member.

You see I have decided to introduce a policy of always quoting a post that I neg rep and stating the reason why I neg repped it in an effort to be as communicative as possible. Therefore if you are going to neg rep me for doing so, you are going to have to follow me everywhere. Just warning whoever you are.

And no, you did not knock me too low to do it anymore.

[WeaselKing]

now where is that rolling eyes emote.....

After you do that could you respond and tell me which helm it was?

[Thucydides04]

now where is that rolling eyes emote.....

Let's do an orthon challenge

[BlackyLigar]

After you do that could you respond and tell me which helm it was?

Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, +100 sp, +3 Cha Skills - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.

************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Green Steel Section *
* Altar of Fecundity - Meridia *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Use either formula to create your item. Only one needs to be used.

Greensteel Helm

Formula #1
Gather These Raw Materials:
1 - Bitterscrub Fungus From: Ritual Sacrafice, Running With The Devils
2 - Chipmunk Funk From: Coalescent Chamber, Let Sleeping Dust Lie
3 - Locus Husk From: Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Vale Rare Chests
3 - Glistening Pebble From: Rainbow In The Dark, Running With The Devils
2 - Lammanian Lily Petals From: Ritual Sacrafice, Vale Rare Chests
1 - Green Briar Twigs From: Coalescent Chamber, Rainbow In The Dark
4 - Eberron Energy Cells From: Vendor By Alter
5 - Shavarath Stones: Might (Ritual Sacrifice), Battle (Running with Devils), Strategy (Let Sleeping Dust Lie), Victory (The Coalescense Chamber), Foresight (Rainbow in the Dark)

Create - Filaments of Toil
Combine: Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Violet Taper
Combine: Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Wonderous Jewel
Combine: Bitterscrub Fungus, Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Shavarath Signet Stone
Combine: Stone of: Might, Battle, Strategy, Foresight, Victory

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm
Combine: Shavarath Signet Stone, Eberron Energy Cell, Filaments of Toil, Violet Taper, Wonderous Jewel


Formula #2
Gather These Raw Materials:
1 - Bitterscrub Fungus From: Ritual Sacrafice, Running With The Devils
2 - Chipmunk Funk From: Coalescent Chamber, Let Sleeping Dust Lie
3 - Locus Husk From: Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Vale Rare Chests
2 - Glistening Pebble From: Rainbow In The Dark, Running With The Devils
2 - Lammanian Lily Petals From: Ritual Sacrafice, Vale Rare Chests
2 - Green Briar Twigs From: Coalescent Chamber, Rainbow In The Dark
4 - Eberron Energy Cells From: Vendor By Alter
5 - Shavarath Stones: Might (Ritual Sacrifice), Battle (Running with Devils), Strategy (Let Sleeping Dust Lie), Victory (The Coalescense Chamber), Foresight (Rainbow in the Dark)

Create - Filaments of Toil
Combine: Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Violet Taper
Combine: Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Wonderous Jewel
Combine: Bitterscrub Fungus, Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Shavarath Signet Stone
Combine: Stone of: Might, Battle, Strategy, Foresight, Victory

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm
Combine: Shavarath Signet Stone, Eberron Energy Cell, Filaments of Toil, Violet Taper, Wonderous Jewel


************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 1 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Invasion - Shroud Part 1 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Negative - Opposition - Material
Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 1 Chests):
2 - Small Glowing Arrowheads
1 - Small Gnawed Bones
2 - Small Infernal Chains
2 - Small Devil Scales
2 - Small Twisted Shrapnel
3 - Small Sulfurous Stones
1 - Shard Of Power
5 - Shavarath Low Energy Cells From Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Create - Inferior Focus Of Negative
Combine: Small Glowing Arrowhead, Small Infernal Chain, Small Twisted Shrapnel, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Cloudy Gem Of Opposition
Combine: Small Gnawed Bone, Small Infernal Chain, Small Devil Scales, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Diluted Material Essence
Combine: Small Glowing Arrowhead, Small Devil Scales, Small Twisted Shrapnel, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard Of Power (Negative)
Combine: Inferior Focus Of Negative, Cloudy Gem Of Opposition, Diluted Material Essence, Shard Of Power, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity
Combine: Greensteel Helm, Imbued Shard Of Power (Negative), Shavarath Low Energy Cell


************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 2 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Subjugation - Shroud Part 3 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Positive - Escalation - Ethereal
+50 sp, +2 Cha Skills , +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 2 & 3 Chests):
2 - Medium Glowing Arrowheads
1 - Medium Gnawed Bones
2 - Medium Infernal Chains
3 - Medium Devil Scales
1 - Medium Twisted Shrapnel
3 - Medium Sulfurous Stones
1 - Shard Of Great Power
5 - Shavarath Medium Energy Cells From Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Power - Depleted Shavarath Medium Energy Cell With +6 to +15 Weapons (Combine Weapon & Energy Cell on Alter)

Create - Focus Of Positive
Combine: Medium Glowing Arrowhead, Medium Gnawed Bone, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Gem Of Escalation
Combine: Medium Infernal Chain, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Twisted Shrapnel, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Ethereal Essence
Combine: Medium Glowing Arrowhead, Medium Infernal Chain, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Great Power (Positive)
Combine: Focus Of Positive, Gem Of Escalation, Ethereal Essence, Shard of Great Power, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Great Power (Positive), Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 3 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Devastation - Shroud Part 5 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Stalemate II - Dominion - Ethereal
Superior Healing Lore, Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 4 & 5 Chests):
4 - Large Glowing Arrowheads
3 - Large Gnawed Bones
5 - Large Infernal Chains
5 - Large Devil Scales
3 - Large Twisted Shrapnel
4 - Large Sulfurous Stones
2 - Shards Of Supreme Power
10 - Shavarath High Energy Cells From: Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Power - Depleted Shavarath High Energy Cell With +8 to +15 Weapons (Combine Weapon & Energy Cell on Alter)

Create - Superior Focus Of Positive
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Gnawed Bone, Large Devil Scales, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Superior Focus Of Negative
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Infernal Chain, Large Twisted Shrapnel, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create 2 - Flawless Gem's Of Dominion
Combine: Large Gnawed Bone, Large Infernal Chain, Large Devil Scales, Large Twisted Shrapnel, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create 2 - Pure Ethereal Essences
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Infernal Chain, Large Devil Scales, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Positive)
Combine: Superior Focus Of Positive, Flawless Gem Of Dominion, Pure Ethereal Essence, Shard of Supreme Power, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Negative)
Combine: Superior Focus Of Negative, Flawless Gem Of Dominion, Pure Ethereal Essence, Shard of Supreme Power, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Stalemate II)
Combine: Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Positive), Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Negative), Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, major Healing Lore - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 & 2 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Supreme Power (Stalemate II), Shavarath High Energy Cell

[toughguyjoe]

"Existential Stalemate"
Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, major Healing Lore - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 & 2 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Supreme Power (Stalemate II), Shavarath High Energy Cell
DONE
***. are you just going to stare at my bows?

"JUST SO DERN UBAHR!!!!!"
saved me from hundreds of otto's dancing balls in the bastion of power. goes off quite a bit really. it's better than the desease imunity 19sr ring i was using for months.

casters can use the scroles that give +30 over +22. i dont have much use for charisma besides diplo and haggle ergo zero stats added to charisma and no points into umd.

your bows are fine. they'd make better rapiers or Kopeshes, but thats beside the point.

Btw, I didn't suggest you make a Concordant opposition Item. With all of your bouncing around Pew Pewing and running away from Mobs you probably only get hit every now and again, Its better for Melees or casters grabbing their SP from attackers.

However. the "Item" I described could go in any slot save Ring, and there are a few (Necklace is one i can think of right off) that you might not want to use, since you would want your classes Set from ToD.

Heres a bigger question: When in all of bloody heck did you get hit with a Dancing ball in Bastion of Power? I've been through that quest top to bottom on all difficulties more times than I care to remember farming blood and i've NEVER been danced.

Oh, also the SR 22 is trivial at best. Its a caster item due to the Wizardry VII and the Coveted reduction of spell points for Empowered spells. I know you don't care about that, but if you put a list of all the raid loot in the game with Spell Caster SP reduction on it(Empower II, Maximize II Etc..) The list is paltry compared to the ones that do not. That is why the caster wanted it, because its Niche to someone that uses those Feats, which you, do not.

[toughguyjoe]

So you made a Mistake on your Greensteel helm, Happens to the best of us kid.

[BlackyLigar]

a mere -2 sp? no, sorry, that does not even begin to cement a greater need argume nt or "caster item". i do have a blue bar btw.........

bastion
from the gnoll casters. i think you lie :rolls eyes:

as for the acane archer tod set. bah, does that even stack with haste? also, didn't even have amrath pack at the time. as i said, only twilight vale.

again, i'm f2p. that means when i get a new pack, i grind through it on each server on elite since i already have a lvl 12-20 on almost all of them. it's nice not to take piddly spells on low-mid levels as well as the occasional block on higher levels.

[Aspenor]

the ring of thelis is a garbage item for pretty much any class. anybody caught using it on a high level character should be mocked with reckless abandon.

[BlackyLigar]

oh and my helm rocks. your opinion of it used on my toon, is second rate trash, akin only to an outhouse lawyer

[Thucydides04]

oh and my helm rocks. your opinion of it used on my toon, is second rate trash, akin only to an outhouse lawyer

Want to do an orthon challenge? We can even bring an inhouse lawyer

[WeaselKing]

Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, +100 sp, +3 Cha Skills - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.

************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Green Steel Section *
* Altar of Fecundity - Meridia *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Use either formula to create your item. Only one needs to be used.

Greensteel Helm

Formula #1
Gather These Raw Materials:
1 - Bitterscrub Fungus From: Ritual Sacrafice, Running With The Devils
2 - Chipmunk Funk From: Coalescent Chamber, Let Sleeping Dust Lie
3 - Locus Husk From: Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Vale Rare Chests
3 - Glistening Pebble From: Rainbow In The Dark, Running With The Devils
2 - Lammanian Lily Petals From: Ritual Sacrafice, Vale Rare Chests
1 - Green Briar Twigs From: Coalescent Chamber, Rainbow In The Dark
4 - Eberron Energy Cells From: Vendor By Alter
5 - Shavarath Stones: Might (Ritual Sacrifice), Battle (Running with Devils), Strategy (Let Sleeping Dust Lie), Victory (The Coalescense Chamber), Foresight (Rainbow in the Dark)

Create - Filaments of Toil
Combine: Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Violet Taper
Combine: Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Wonderous Jewel
Combine: Bitterscrub Fungus, Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Shavarath Signet Stone
Combine: Stone of: Might, Battle, Strategy, Foresight, Victory

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm
Combine: Shavarath Signet Stone, Eberron Energy Cell, Filaments of Toil, Violet Taper, Wonderous Jewel


Formula #2
Gather These Raw Materials:
1 - Bitterscrub Fungus From: Ritual Sacrafice, Running With The Devils
2 - Chipmunk Funk From: Coalescent Chamber, Let Sleeping Dust Lie
3 - Locus Husk From: Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Vale Rare Chests
2 - Glistening Pebble From: Rainbow In The Dark, Running With The Devils
2 - Lammanian Lily Petals From: Ritual Sacrafice, Vale Rare Chests
2 - Green Briar Twigs From: Coalescent Chamber, Rainbow In The Dark
4 - Eberron Energy Cells From: Vendor By Alter
5 - Shavarath Stones: Might (Ritual Sacrifice), Battle (Running with Devils), Strategy (Let Sleeping Dust Lie), Victory (The Coalescense Chamber), Foresight (Rainbow in the Dark)

Create - Filaments of Toil
Combine: Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Violet Taper
Combine: Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Lammanian Lily Petals, Glistening Pebbles, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Wonderous Jewel
Combine: Bitterscrub Fungus, Chipmunk Funk, Locus Husk, Green Briar Twig, Eberron Energy Cell

Create - Shavarath Signet Stone
Combine: Stone of: Might, Battle, Strategy, Foresight, Victory

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm
Combine: Shavarath Signet Stone, Eberron Energy Cell, Filaments of Toil, Violet Taper, Wonderous Jewel


************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 1 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Invasion - Shroud Part 1 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Negative - Opposition - Material
Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 1 Chests):
2 - Small Glowing Arrowheads
1 - Small Gnawed Bones
2 - Small Infernal Chains
2 - Small Devil Scales
2 - Small Twisted Shrapnel
3 - Small Sulfurous Stones
1 - Shard Of Power
5 - Shavarath Low Energy Cells From Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Create - Inferior Focus Of Negative
Combine: Small Glowing Arrowhead, Small Infernal Chain, Small Twisted Shrapnel, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Cloudy Gem Of Opposition
Combine: Small Gnawed Bone, Small Infernal Chain, Small Devil Scales, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Diluted Material Essence
Combine: Small Glowing Arrowhead, Small Devil Scales, Small Twisted Shrapnel, Small Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard Of Power (Negative)
Combine: Inferior Focus Of Negative, Cloudy Gem Of Opposition, Diluted Material Essence, Shard Of Power, Shavarath Low Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity
Combine: Greensteel Helm, Imbued Shard Of Power (Negative), Shavarath Low Energy Cell


************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 2 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Subjugation - Shroud Part 3 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Positive - Escalation - Ethereal
+50 sp, +2 Cha Skills , +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 2 & 3 Chests):
2 - Medium Glowing Arrowheads
1 - Medium Gnawed Bones
2 - Medium Infernal Chains
3 - Medium Devil Scales
1 - Medium Twisted Shrapnel
3 - Medium Sulfurous Stones
1 - Shard Of Great Power
5 - Shavarath Medium Energy Cells From Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Power - Depleted Shavarath Medium Energy Cell With +6 to +15 Weapons (Combine Weapon & Energy Cell on Alter)

Create - Focus Of Positive
Combine: Medium Glowing Arrowhead, Medium Gnawed Bone, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Gem Of Escalation
Combine: Medium Infernal Chain, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Twisted Shrapnel, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Ethereal Essence
Combine: Medium Glowing Arrowhead, Medium Infernal Chain, Medium Devil Scales, Medium Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Great Power (Positive)
Combine: Focus Of Positive, Gem Of Escalation, Ethereal Essence, Shard of Great Power, Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Great Power (Positive), Shavarath Medium Energy Cell

************************************************** ************************************************** *****
* Tier 3 Upgrade Section *
* Altar of Devastation - Shroud Part 5 *
************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Stalemate II - Dominion - Ethereal
Superior Healing Lore, Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.

Gather These Raw Materials (From Shroud Part 4 & 5 Chests):
4 - Large Glowing Arrowheads
3 - Large Gnawed Bones
5 - Large Infernal Chains
5 - Large Devil Scales
3 - Large Twisted Shrapnel
4 - Large Sulfurous Stones
2 - Shards Of Supreme Power
10 - Shavarath High Energy Cells From: Chests Within the Shroud, or the Vendor in Part 3

Power - Depleted Shavarath High Energy Cell With +8 to +15 Weapons (Combine Weapon & Energy Cell on Alter)

Create - Superior Focus Of Positive
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Gnawed Bone, Large Devil Scales, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Superior Focus Of Negative
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Infernal Chain, Large Twisted Shrapnel, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create 2 - Flawless Gem's Of Dominion
Combine: Large Gnawed Bone, Large Infernal Chain, Large Devil Scales, Large Twisted Shrapnel, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create 2 - Pure Ethereal Essences
Combine: Large Glowing Arrowhead, Large Infernal Chain, Large Devil Scales, Large Sulfurous Stone, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Positive)
Combine: Superior Focus Of Positive, Flawless Gem Of Dominion, Pure Ethereal Essence, Shard of Supreme Power, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Negative)
Combine: Superior Focus Of Negative, Flawless Gem Of Dominion, Pure Ethereal Essence, Shard of Supreme Power, Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create - Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Stalemate II)
Combine: Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Positive), Imbued Shard of Supreme Power (Negative), Shavarath High Energy Cell

Create Final Item - Greensteel Helm With Blindness Immunity, Disease Immunity, +50 sp, +2 Cha Skills - +6 Wisdom, +10 Diplomacy, +10 Haggle, major Healing Lore - Concordant Opposition: When attacked, Chance (~1%) to gain hps or spell points.
Combine: Greensteel Helm(With Tier 1 & 2 Upgrade), Imbued Shard Of Supreme Power (Stalemate II), Shavarath High Energy Cell

Oh snap, you're right I just never would have thought of making it that way.

It feels good to admit when I make a mistake and am wrong, not that you would know.

[Lleren]

Want to do an orthon challenge? We can even bring an inhouse lawyer

I'm lost. What is an Orthon Challenge?

[toughguyjoe]

a mere -2 sp? no, sorry, that does not even begin to cement a greater need argume nt or "caster item". i do have a blue bar btw.........

I suppose I can give you some schooling then. Ring of thelis is a Marginally good Item for a caster, but is easily trumped by other Items. For a ranger, its Trash. Class dismissed.




bastion
from the gnoll casters. i think you lie :rolls eyes:

The Gnolls in Bastion of Power? The GNOLLS in BASTION OF POWER?


as for the acane archer tod set. bah, does that even stack with haste? also, didn't even have amrath pack at the time. as i said, only twilight vale.

again, i'm f2p. that means when i get a new pack, i grind through it on each server on elite since i already have a lvl 12-20 on almost all of them. it's nice not to take piddly spells on low-mid levels as well as the occasional block on higher levels.

Yep, the Arcane Archer set sucks. there are other ToD Sets that might help you more though, and I'm sure you'd loot them the moment you saw them. Not a huge deal, but hey. If you can get completions in ToD more power to you.

Gnolls in Bastion of Power. That might just become a new Running joke. Kudos Kid.

[WeaselKing]

I'm lost. What is an Orthon Challenge?

Wouldn't you like to know?

[WeaselKing]

Wouldn't you like to know?

You know that question is denotatively the same as the question "Would you like to know?" but kind of seems to have a completely different connotation, huh?

[Naash]

The Gnolls in Bastion of Power?



Oh my.




The GNOLLS in BASTION OF POWER?



Oh my.

[Lleren]

You know that question is denotatively the same as the question "Would you like to know?" but kind of seems to have a completely different connotation, huh?

Quoting yourself is a sign of a Sick Sick mind.

Want to be friends?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I neg repped this post because it was inflammatory and did not respect the contributions of another community member.

I pos repped you for excellent, proper use of the forum rep system.

[PopeJual]

I pos repped you for excellent, proper use of the forum rep system.

I did not rep this post because I got distracted by something shiny.

[Lleren]

I did not rep this post because I got distracted by something shiny.

Shiny!!! where??

[v8gremlin]

I think our ranger friend is missing the whole point of .....everything... and his replies are always laced with "btw i did this on elite or that by myself, im uber blah blah blah" <----sorry should that be cluck cluck cluck.

Anyways, just to reiterate, from the very begininning it was a bunch of people in a hound that tried to convey the concept of why you shouldn't have looted the ring, namely because it really is a lame ring for ranger. Your response was what incited the situation. Essentially you stated it was your loot your pulling it, you failed to listen or even acknowledge suggestions as to why its not really useful to you. You'd already looted it so end of story it was done...but your response and attitude is why you dont get into many raid groups now.

There is none of this extortion etc that you constantly cry about, it is simply that you made your position clear, a lot of people in that raid dont agree with your stance. People talk, mainly to protect their mates from bad players (whether attitude or skill). You got talked about, word spread, your attitude - including your bio and lfm messages just made things worse for you (as have your forum postings by the looks of it - not just this thread).

Actually I think you should be thanking everyone for the negative feedback directed at you. This is a perfect example of why all these supposed people arent really extortionists. In order to extort you we'd need to group with you, we dont so your arguement is invalid......move along, stop whining about it. As stated dont group with people if you dont like the responses to your attitude, or if you dont want to do things the way the majority tend to do.

You are clearly uber, so go solo everything, you dont have to worry about extortion then

[toughguyjoe]

yeah in the final fight with the marlith. dancing and battling demon queens is pretty suck. especialy when soloing hard.

pathetic scoff aside, i have 3 completions on tod. i'm always kiting an orthon or pit fiend and the party is always pleased to see a good hunk of damage out of the way when they go to focus on said pit fiend or orthon.

shinto ring. **** straight i'd loot my loot. go die extortionist.

now then, with your lofty ideals of who owns what, what would you say about a barb looting a shimmering arrowhead infront of a ranger? "seeker 4 is universal" i'd bet.


I don't have spell resistance. Never been Danced in the final fight. Not joking.

Shintao Ring is great for lots of people. Loot it if you want, You won't be looting it in any group i'm in.

BTW, Shimmering Arrowhead has +2 to Hit, seeker 4. Its an item for people who attack Mobs.

If you think its a "Ranger Item" Then you have a very strange sense of what is a "Ranger Item" Is that because all you know how to do is jump back and forth and go Pew Pew?

Gratz on Being Kiting Specced. you seem so proud.

And Mostly, Gratz on your THREE Tod Completions, and gratz on getting reported for telling another forum posters to "Go Die"

[Thucydides04]

yeah in the final fight with the marlith. dancing and battling demon queens is pretty suck. especialy when soloing hard.

pathetic scoff aside, i have 3 completions on tod. i'm always kiting an orthon or pit fiend and the party is always pleased to see a good hunk of damage out of the way when they go to focus on said pit fiend or orthon.

shinto ring. **** straight i'd loot my loot. go die extortionist.

now then, with your lofty ideals of who owns what, what would you say about a barb looting a shimmering arrowhead infront of a ranger? "seeker 4 is universal" i'd bet.

I would like to run an orthon challenge with you

[Stormwine]

How bored am I that I read every post lol. That being said, I started playing MMO's with EQ beta, I have played EQ 1&2, WoW, Shadowbane, Galaxies, EvE online, City of Heroes, Guild wars, and a few others I don't remember names of. The Longest of which EQ1 and Eve with 4 years of each. With that all of those games have some sort of "Rare" or "Epic" loot in raids. And every one of those games have a forum post somewhere about how this loot should be split.
All of the threads are as long (if not longer) as this one. My conclusion, as long as there is epic loot there will be these threads that will eventually end up with a flame war. There is no easy answer outside of raiding with your guild. But then again I have seen guild forums where guildies argue about how loot was split. So is this really an answer. So basically the fact is no single solution will ever work for anyone, even the "stating loot rules upfront" has the chance of someone getting upset.

"Well yes we agreed to roll on everything but I didn't know that was going to drop"

Need before greed? That's putting alot of faith in someone to be honest, and I am sorry but I feel greed is inherent in human nature.


This is always going to be an ongoing battle in MMO's I play this game to have fun and the social aspect. I refuse to let my game be ruined by an intangible pare of gloves, sword or shield.

[Gunga]

I refuse to let my game be ruined by an intangible pare of gloves, sword or shield.

If they drop, they ARE tangible.

Thus this.

[TheJusticar]

If they drop, they ARE tangible.

Thus this.

No, they are still virtual as in bits and bytes. None of this affects anyone's RL -- and if it does they need to find a new hobby.

[Stormwine]

If they drop, they ARE tangible.

Thus this.
Sorry I am an old man I think of tangible as being real to the touch.
Any loot dropped in this game is virtual, not tangible.
Again its just my age showing nothing in this game is tangible, being virtual. Like I said Im old lol

[Gunga]

No, they are still virtual as in bits and bytes. None of this affects anyone's RL -- and if it does they need to find a new hobby.

No. Tangible means substantial rather than imaginary.

INTANGIBLE = Boy I sure do hope a Sword of Shadows drops, cause then I'm gonna make it epic and then I'm gonna wet myself.

TANGIBLE = Look at my Sword of Shadows and wet pants.

Learn something.

[TheJusticar]

No. Tangible means substantial rather than imaginary.

INTANGIBLE = Boy I sure do hope a Sword of Shadows drops, cause then I'm gonna make it epic and then I'm gonna wet myself.

TANGIBLE = Look at my Sword of Shadows and wet pants.

Learn something.

See, it is imaginary, in a way. You are making the valid distinction between ideation and realization. However, I believe the person who you quoted meant it as RL vs. virtual items.

Today I learned ...

[Stormwine]

Websters Dictionary on my desk:

Tangible: 1. capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch
2. capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind

So for hardcore games #2 makes the loot tangible
For Casual gamers #1 makes loot intangible

I am casual player, single father of 2 I have to be.

[TheJusticar]

Websters Dictionary on my desk:

Tangible: 1. capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch
2. capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind

So for hardcore games #2 makes the loot tangible
For Casual gamers #1 makes loot intangible

I am casual player, single father of 2 I have to be.

+1 my man. Well played.

[FluffyCalico]

It's really very simple.
1) If special rules are made before hand then follow them or don't go on the raid
2) If no special rules were agreed on then use the built in method, whats in your name you can loot, or assign for whatever reason.
3) If you feel someone screwed you over feel free to squelch them and not group with them again
4) If you feel the agreed upon rules were not fair then why did you agree to them?

There is no need for the devs to change anything.

[toughguyjoe]

No. Tangible means substantial rather than imaginary.

INTANGIBLE = Boy I sure do hope a Sword of Shadows drops, cause then I'm gonna make it epic and then I'm gonna wet myself.

TANGIBLE = Look at my Sword of Shadows and wet pants.

Learn something.

Gunga you're Funny on the forums.

you act like you should have My forum name, and then act like a regular player in game. I <3 Gunga. *hugs*

[Bigrtt]

The loot system to me is only as fair as the group you're in. I still think the same as previous posters. If you pull X item, it's yours to do what you want with it. More than likely they're going to put it up for roll if they can't/won't ever use it. I'm yet to be in a raid where someone will take a named item to vendor without offering to roll it.

What bugs me though is what I think you're getting at.

Say a sorc pulls sword of shadow, and they just loot it to end up vnedoring it later on. When there was THF'ers in the group specifically after it. I wouldn't quite call it being selfish, but it is very inconsiderate.

The thing that really annoys me, is I've put some things up for roll, X person who rolled the highest sends a /tell 5 mins later telling me how much he got for the item at the vendor.

[Gunga]

Gunga you're Funny on the forums.

you act like you should have My forum name, and then act like a regular player in game. I <3 Gunga. *hugs*

That was totally not tough.

[toughguyjoe]

that Was Totally Not Tough.

Omfg Gunga Meet Me In The Pheonix Tavern If You Think Im Not Tough You Sunuvafdjskhsd:hasdkhdfsajklfh

[BlackyLigar]

oh looky here, i shrugged off your very good points like water of a ducks back and made a full reversal! i'm rubber you're glue, WOOT look at me! i'm toughguy!

what i say is law! if i say it sux then it must! only those who i deem fit can use a ring of thelis!

the thelis stays and you're slime for trying to worm it away from me.

[Aspenor]

Omfg Gunga Meet Me In The Pheonix Tavern If You Think Im Not Tough You Sunuvafdjskhsd:hasdkhdfsajklfh

I think he's hitting on you, Gunga. Everybody knows the Phoenix Tavern is the gay bar of DDO.

[v8gremlin]

Interesting, put up a quote to make it appear like i said something that might actually be as pathetic as your posts. Why not respond to my actual posts rather than try to make up fake quotes that your trying to use to discredit someone. BTW, I believe the term for that is misrepresentation. Clearly you have no valid case to argue, or not enough intellect, otherwise you would address my posts with sensible responses rather than the nonsense "I know better than all" posts your currently putting up.

I have clearly explained my stance, but you constantly dance around it because why?

[Aspenor]

I have clearly explained my stance, but you constantly dance around it because why?

Because he thinks that piece of trash ring is a good item, maybe? It's hard to tell. I do know one thing, if I saw a ranger hit my LFM wearing the ring of thelis I'd be wondering "*** is this guy thinking?"

SR 22 is garbage.

Wizardry VII is garbage.

-2 sp for empower is less than good, and of completely zero use for a ranger.

[v8gremlin]

Following your lead mr ranger, I thought I'd put words in your mouth (yes i know how can I flame you for doing it then do it myself, well i just thought i'd help you get started with a valid response);

Why is the ring of thelis good for a ranger;

sr 22 - i have gimped saves, so hopefully the high end mobs roll a 2 on their sp checks, that way the ring will save me
empower -2sp - I need empower on my ranger so that i can heal myself quicker, no clerics want to run with me anymore cause im gimped
wizVII - using empower costs me more sp and i cant get a tod belt or bracers of the glacier with archmagi on em - because i cant get into any raid groups that manage to complete

How's that, sums your toon up about right?

[Tarrant]

I tried to salvage this thread but it appears to be impossible even for my considerable talents. Feel free to continue this topic in a new thread, a thread that will contain a plethora of infractions for anyone that violates the forum guidelines.