Individual exp penalties vs party exp penalties

[abrownbear9108]

i want to hear people thoughts on whether Turbine should change the Exp. penalty system from the current: someone dies, everyone loses exp etc.

would it be better to change it so that when a person dies, only that person is going to lose exp because of it? or do people like the way it is with everyone losing out because of that one mistake when someone took one step too many into a death trap?

i havent searched the forums for previous posts like this, but i would still like to hear everyones thoughts anyways........who knows, we may get a dev see the thread and pass along the info.......i dont want my "save the squishies" tactics to lose everyone else some exp

i look forward to the replies :D

[Lakeland]

Sounds like an idea that could get someone very mad. Healer has two guys taking damage fast, one is probably not going to make it, well you can figure out the rest and the hard feelings from it.

[Oolung]

I personally think the way it works right now is rather good. Player dies, the party loses a bonus, but individually the players don't lose anything for dying aside from bonus for not dying. This gives an extra bonus to shoot for, as well as doesn't penalize newer people solo'ing or playing with new friends that might outwise cause them to get 0 xp in a highly trapped quest if personal death penalties were applied. Although there are those people that freak out over losing a bit more xp, the system usually makes people be a bit more group concious ("watch out! trap around here!" sorta thing)

[abrownbear9108]

Sounds like an idea that could get someone very mad. Healer has two guys taking damage fast, one is probably not going to make it, well you can figure out the rest and the hard feelings from it.

this is true, i'll probably get some sort of hate from posting the thread, but i dont really care, i just want to know what people thoughts are on this matter.

personally, i would rather my shortcomings for being a DPS type fighter rather than a
50AC intimitank not to affect the parties overall exp penalty. if i died and it was only me getting a penalty because of this, thats completely understandable and i wouldnt mind, but making a bit of a stupid decision in a quest and trying to take on and army of trolls with no heavy fortification and 18-22AC (regardless of my high HP) to take aggro when theres no-one else capable of doing said without dying in 2 hits, i'd prefer to have only me get an exp penalty

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The old penalty was an xp penalty on death for the person who died. I liked that better.

The current system makes people not want to pug, and that's not good for the game.

[abrownbear9108]

The old penalty was an xp penalty on death for the person who died. I liked that better.

The current system makes people not want to pug, and that's not good for the game.

so it only gave an exp penalty to that one person who died first? cool, i think i'd prefer that method too :P i'm a squishy type of fighter......

"hits like a nuke, drops like a bomb" - i believe thats how someone described me in-game one time :p

[Lorien_the_First_One]

so it only gave an exp penalty to that one person who died first? cool, i think i'd prefer that method too :P i'm a squishy type of fighter......

"hits like a nuke, drops like a bomb" - i believe thats how someone described me in-game one time :p

It actually gave you neg xp every time you died to the person that died. It didn't come off the quest xp, it came right off your xp bar. If you lost enough, it could even give you a temporary neg level until you reearned it. It was actually quite funny whenever new content was released as people earned huge neg xp trying to figure out the tougher new quests. That of course was much closer to D&D rules, but some people cried and said it made them sad so they got rid of it and started damaging our equipment instead.

[Freeman]

It actually gave you neg xp every time you died to the person that died. It didn't come off the quest xp, it came right off your xp bar. If you lost enough, it could even give you a temporary neg level until you reearned it. It was actually quite funny whenever new content was released as people earned huge neg xp trying to figure out the tougher new quests. That of course was much closer to D&D rules, but some people cried and said it made them sad so they got rid of it and started damaging our equipment instead.

But the old system was far more discouraging towards pugging than the current system. In those days, one death could wipe out the XP from an entire quest for that player. How many times did you hear of players simply logging out of the game after a death in the middle of a quest back in those days? I knew of several people that quit the game simply because it became too much effort to try to overcome the XP penalties that a handful of deaths from something like a dragon raid could generate. At least under the current system, you don't feel like a few hours of gaming can leave you worse off than when you started.

[abrownbear9108]

It actually gave you neg xp every time you died to the person that died. It didn't come off the quest xp, it came right off your xp bar. If you lost enough, it could even give you a temporary neg level until you reearned it. It was actually quite funny whenever new content was released as people earned huge neg xp trying to figure out the tougher new quests. That of course was much closer to D&D rules, but some people cried and said it made them sad so they got rid of it and started damaging our equipment instead.

lol, yea thats not sounding too good now......maybe if they did have an exp penalty for the first person who died or individual penalties people would cry, whinge and complain for it to be changed, but personally i think it would be better with the individual penalties, then if it was only me who died everyone else gets full exp and consoles me for my loss of exp :p lol

[cm2_supernova]

But the old system was far more discouraging towards pugging than the current system. In those days, one death could wipe out the XP from an entire quest for that player. How many times did you hear of players simply logging out of the game after a death in the middle of a quest back in those days? I knew of several people that quit the game simply because it became too much effort to try to overcome the XP penalties that a handful of deaths from something like a dragon raid could generate. At least under the current system, you don't feel like a few hours of gaming can leave you worse off than when you started.

qft

I actually look at the death and re-entery as something extra from the standard. If someone dies in the quest you dont get anything extra, but if you can complete with everyone alive you get the +10%.

I know its kind of the same thing, but I just try to look at it as a reward vs penalty...it helps keep the grey hairs away while pugging. :)

[Xionanx]

Personally I would love to see the following implemented:

Total XP Awarded for Quest (Lets got with 1000 for example)
Total Completion Time (Lets go with 10 Minutes for example)
Compared to "Time Spent Alive and In Quest" (Lets say 8 minutes)
Time Alive/Total Time = 8/10 or 80%
XP Awarded upon completion 800

So, that player would recieve 80% of the total quest XP for being ALIVE and PRESENT in the quest.

This would completely remove the Death Penalties, Late Entry Penalties, and Re-Entry Penalties in favor of a % contribution based on your living presence in the quest.

So if you recalled out and took 10 minutes to get back in.. you lost a % of XP
You died and had your stone carried for 15 minutes before you got rezzed, you lost a % of XP
You stood around outside the quest for 5 minutes while the rest of the party started without you, you lost a % of XP.

This of course promotes:
A) Staying alive.
B) Not dawdling around outside a quest wasting people's time.
C) Having a person capable of resurrection (faster rez = less penalty).
D) Not leaving the quest for any extended period of time.

This of course also means that the longer the quest, the less noticable the penalty will be, and vice versa. If you join a "speed run" group for Kobolds New Ringleader, a quest that is frequently done in less then 3 minutes, and you dont enter until they are fighting the boss... well your gonna get a huge penalty for not contributing. Where as now you would still get full XP.

Anyway, IMO it would be preferable over the system as it is now.

As far as "Is it fair for me to be penalized when someone else dies" I say NO IT IS NOT!!

If I am 3 manning something and I am on my "Barbarian" and I am with the "Healer" completing the quest. Then if the "Guy who died" is no where near us and dies of his own stupidity.. is that MY FAULT? No! I am NOT a healing class, and I am NOT a babysitter. I should not loose 10% of the XP because someone else decided to be ********.

[abrownbear9108]

As far as "Is it fair for me to be penalized when someone else dies" I say NO IT IS NOT!!

If I am 3 manning something and I am on my "Barbarian" and I am with the "Healer" completing the quest. Then if the "Guy who died" is no where near us and dies of his own stupidity.. is that MY FAULT? No! I am NOT a healing class, and I am NOT a babysitter. I should not loose 10% of the XP because someone else decided to be ********.

i agree completely......although sometimes its a necessary death to save the party from a complete wipe, i'd still prefer not to lose exp because of that

i think they should change the death penalty so that you have a certain number of deaths before the bonus goes back to 0.......makes it so that if we only have the one death, theres still a bonus to exp, e.g 6-8% instead of 0% gives us a chance to keep earning a little extra exp, but still be penalised for deaths.....

and the death count would probably be different for each quest because theres some where it's almost impossible to do without dying at least 2 times, others, yea keep it one death, lose your bonus

then on the flipside of this argument people will say its an excuse for people to die a little more often......yea you're probably right, but at least we wont be losing as much exp from the deaths

[Phidius]

I like the idea - a one time loss of an optional 10% is worlds different from losing more XP than the quest you are in will provide.

But then again, I'm one of those die-hard BYOH self-sufficient type players, so I'd never blame a healer for "letting me die". If I die, it's my own d**n fault... except when I need to "trust in the Shroud..."

This seems to be a way of returning to a softer, gentler version of the Death penalty...

[tinyelvis]

The current system, IMO, is much better than the old system or the very old system if for any other reason than that more XP is available. Currently, you get an experience bonus if no one dies. In the old system you got no bonus. This obviously is better. The old system was around for a long time.

The very old system (in addition to less XP potential) penalized an individual for dying. This system imo was really poor for a number of reasons.
1. It encouraged people not to take chances and not to risk their self in any way helping out their teammate, for, you gained little by doing so.
2. Quests often broke down when people quit in frustration or fear. (i.e. when someone died attempting to help someone in trouble while the rest of the party watched.)

The current system gives a reward to groups who can manage to get the whole party thru a quest intact. If you go back to either older system this reward was not present. Encouraging actions thru rewards is a much better system then the very negative other option. Further a good party and especially party leader can get anyone thru a quest alive. IF they do, they should and currently do get rewarded.

So, I don't understand this topic. Either your claiming you,

1. Would rather not have as much XP potential in quests. And want things returned to an older less XP available option. Not sure why you dont like more XP.

or

2. You are asking to be given 10% more XP in a quest for free. When will this demand end. In that case, the thread should be titled "I think quests should give out 10% more base XP"

[abrownbear9108]

So, I don't understand this topic. Either your claiming you,

1. Would rather not have as much XP potential in quests. And want things returned to an older less XP available option. Not sure why you dont like more XP.

or

2. You are asking to be given 10% more XP in a quest for free. When will this demand end. In that case, the thread should be titled "I think quests should give out 10% more base XP"


they wont change the current system just because i posted this thread questioning the way it works/should work (IMO).......i'm not saying i dont want exp, more exp is always good, but penalising the whole party for one persons death is just a little annoying sometimes, especially when you're trying to level and go through a high exp quest only to find "oh, someone died, d**n, there goes a good portion of that exp".......i'm sure we all know how that feels........i'm not saying "give us free exp bonuses just for doing the quest" i'm saying "alter the system a little so that only the person who did die loses that 10% bonus

[Ranmaru2]

If they could tweak the old system wherein you never lose more xp than you'd gain from the maximum amount of XP to be allotted at completion of the quest, then they could bring back the xp penalty no problem, IFF it switched back to the current death penalty when a person became capped.

a good thread that kind of showed some possible sides of the xp debt death penalty is this older thread here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182546)

[abrownbear9108]

If they could tweak the old system wherein you never lose more xp than you'd gain from the maximum amount of XP to be allotted at completion of the quest, then they could bring back the xp penalty no problem, IFF it switched back to the current death penalty when a person became capped.

a good thread that kind of showed some possible sides of the xp debt death penalty is this older thread here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182546)

thanks for that link, like i said in the OP, i havent searched for this type of post so i wouldnt have know about that thread otherwise :D

[eonfreon]

Leave it as it is, IMO.
It's a bonus for the group.
Making it any more complicated isn't worth the bother. Worrying about who should be penalized is counter-productive.
What about the melee who goes down fighting and saves the group from a wipe?
What about a Cleric spending so much energy saving someone that he gets killed but he keeps the Tank alive to kill the Boss?
Too many factors to figure out a "fair" system.

It's just a bonus. If it's lost it shouldn't be that bad.
No need to dissuade people from "noble deaths" to help their group.

[abrownbear9108]

thats understandable......your right in saying that it would be more complicated, but as i said earlier, its highly unlikely that the devs will act on anything in this thread, so its just peoples opinions :p

[eonfreon]

thats understandable......your right in saying that it would be more complicated, but as i said earlier, its highly unlikely that the devs will act on anything in this thread, so its just peoples opinions :p

Yes. You asked for opinions. I gave you my opinion.;)

And I gave you reasons behind my opinion- mainly no need for it to get more complicated or punitive. :). I haven't offered any fear that the Devs will adopt any particular suggestion .
Just giving my opinion, just on the off-chance it may make some difference down the line. Not too worried about it.

I like it because it's a bonus.
And it isn't a penalty to individuals.
It's too bad some can and do view it as a penalty.
I can understand why.

[Jendrak]

But the old system was far more discouraging towards pugging than the current system. In those days, one death could wipe out the XP from an entire quest for that player. How many times did you hear of players simply logging out of the game after a death in the middle of a quest back in those days? I knew of several people that quit the game simply because it became too much effort to try to overcome the XP penalties that a handful of deaths from something like a dragon raid could generate. At least under the current system, you don't feel like a few hours of gaming can leave you worse off than when you started.

BS....It didnt discourage puggin it encouraged team work and people actually playing and not trying to treat it like some FPS run-shoot-die-repeat garbage.

[tinyelvis]

they wont change the current system just because i posted this thread questioning the way it works/should work (IMO).......i'm not saying i dont want exp, more exp is always good, but penalising the whole party for one persons death is just a little annoying sometimes, especially when you're trying to level and go through a high exp quest only to find "oh, someone died, d**n, there goes a good portion of that exp".......i'm sure we all know how that feels........i'm not saying "give us free exp bonuses just for doing the quest" i'm saying "alter the system a little so that only the person who did die loses that 10% bonus


I don't think you understand, and am not sure how to make it much clearer. There currently is no XP penalty. They added a bonus. That means more potential XP not less. You only get rewarded, you don't in any way get penalized. If they eliminate that rule, then you eliminate the bonus. That means less potential XP. For example, tomorrow you wake up and DDO has eliminated the fact that a party members death effects anything. Then you would also not see the 10% bonus, and things would be like the old day. It does not matter how much you argue for a personal penalty to a dying party member. You cant seriously claim you still should be entitled to a 10% XP bonus for no party member death if one occurs. So, how do you justify giving the party 10% more XP? What extra thing did they do? In fact, they did less than a party who managed to keep all alive (and in the current system get rewarded for the extra effort).

So in effect, you want to turn a potential 10% bonus into an automatic 10% increase to base XP, and you want to penalize a dying party member by 10%. So you don't want this 10% to be earned anymore but to be given to everyone. Why stop at 10% free increase in base XP, why not 50 or 100%? I suppose you could make this argument, but its a different argument.

[Greydeath]

The old penalty was an xp penalty on death for the person who died. I liked that better.

The current system makes people not want to pug, and that's not good for the game.

qft - this was so much better... trust turbine to frack **** up :rolleyes:

[abrownbear9108]

I don't think you understand, and am not sure how to make it much clearer. There currently is no XP penalty. They added a bonus. That means more potential XP not less. You only get rewarded, you don't in any way get penalized. If they eliminate that rule, then you eliminate the bonus. That means less potential XP. For example, tomorrow you wake up and DDO has eliminated the fact that a party members death effects anything. Then you would also not see the 10% bonus, and things would be like the old day. It does not matter how much you argue for a personal penalty to a dying party member. You cant seriously claim you still should be entitled to a 10% XP bonus for no party member death if one occurs. So, how do you justify giving the party 10% more XP? What extra thing did they do? In fact, they did less than a party who managed to keep all alive (and in the current system get rewarded for the extra effort).

So in effect, you want to turn a potential 10% bonus into an automatic 10% increase to base XP, and you want to penalize a dying party member by 10%. So you don't want this 10% to be earned anymore but to be given to everyone. Why stop at 10% free increase in base XP, why not 50 or 100%? I suppose you could make this argument, but its a different argument.

you make some good points here

i understand what you mean, i'm not saying i dont like the current system, i'm saying that it could be different, whether the difference is a good or bad one in the eyes of the players, it would be different because someone up in the Turbine food chain wants it to be altered regardless of how much we complain.........that and they could have a trial run of the different system on the test server, and if it gets bad reviews from players, simply dont implement it across the servers

[Noctus]

i want to hear people thoughts on whether Turbine should change the Exp. penalty system from the current: someone dies, everyone loses exp etc.

would it be better to change it so that when a person dies, only that person is going to lose exp because of it? or do people like the way it is with everyone losing out because of that one mistake when someone took one step too many into a death trap?


Let me phrase it this way:

The loss of 10% XP is the reason why i dont pug any more. I rather stick to guild/channel -groups and shortman, or even solo. Especially when i am leveling a TR where getting XP is important.

I run the quests for XP. letting a random pug in gives you a good chance of loosing XP. No thanks.

-

If the 10% less XP for a death would be changed from a "for the whole group"-loss to a "your personal XP"-loss the biggest disincentive to pugging would be gone.

So i dont get penalized because the Ranger thought dumpstatting CON was a way to go, or the Paladin who wears no heavy fort in the vale gets critted into a pulp.


To make myself more clear:
The bonus-prereq for no death bonus XP is changed from: "noone in the whole group died" to "you didn´t die". So you dont get punished if some other guy died.

[abrownbear9108]

lol, Noctus, i'd have to agree with you :p

although seeing as i'm F2P and currently dont have the vale, i wouldnt know exactly how painful it is, lol, i'll get there someday though :D

[QuantumFX]

The problem is that Turbine gave the flawless victory bonus in the first place. Encouraging a “Don’t die” philosophy is great but they forgot the fact that some players are simply too stupid to live.

[tinyelvis]

Let me phrase it this way:

The loss of 10% XP is the reason why i dont pug any more.....

Are you saying before they instituted the bonus you never pugged? They haven't taken any XP away. You always got less XP back then, and not just when a party member died. If they took the current bonus away would you be happier? Then you again would always get less XP.

Think of it this way. If an insurance company gives your truck company a better premium because it goes X number of years without any truck drivers having accidents. Are you saying a better system is if the insurance company doesn't give you the premium bonus but rather penalizes more folks who crash a lot. Personally, I like the opportunity to potentially get something extra for my good behavior. I don't quite understand the desire by some to see others punished in lieu of this.

You don't honestly believe the insurance company is just gonna give a 10% bonus to your premium for nothing?

[abrownbear9108]

The problem is that Turbine gave the flawless victory bonus in the first place. Encouraging a “Don’t die” philosophy is great but they forgot the fact that some players are simply too stupid to live.

bahahahha, so very true :P

sometimes though others are to stupid to realise that: "at some point we're gunna need bait for that really big demon, and guess who just got the job" :D

[QuantumFX]

Are you saying before they instituted the bonus you never pugged? They haven't taken any XP away. You always got less XP back then, and not just when a party member died. If they took the current bonus away would you be happier? Then you again would always get less XP.

Think of it this way. If an insurance company gives your truck company a better premium because it goes X number of years without any truck drivers having accidents. Are you saying a better system is if the insurance company doesn't give you the premium bonus but rather penalizes more folks who crash a lot. Personally, I like the opportunity to potentially get something extra for my good behavior. I don't quite understand the desire by some to see others punished in lieu of this.

You don't honestly believe the insurance company is just gonna give a 10% bonus to your premium for nothing?

Noctus is saying that each player should have his own insurance policy.

[Ranmaru2]

A Proposal for a new death penalty for DDO

This removes the need for the current flawless victory bonus which has a flaw in that it doesn't allow for any sort of tiered bonus like every other xp bonus in the game (Even Persistence goes down 1 tier if I recall, though I could be wrong). The current system is inherently flawed in that punishing a whole party for the actions of one person wherein they might have been acting on their own to just run through a quest away from everyone else and die leads to lost experience for everyone else. The current xp hit also has an inherent flaw in it wherein it discourges:

A) Pugging on the part of players with ~1 1/2 years experience or more
B) Leads to much conflict between players for fudging things up, especially with the introduction of True Ressurrection

In order to combat both of these conflicts, I suggest the following system. This new system works based on xp hit per death based on level starting at level 2 combined with the current death penalty and increasing onward until level 19.4, wherein the current death penalty would take over. The base penalty will start at 50 xp per death and increase +25 xp per level until level 6 where it increases to +50 per level until level 12 where the penalty increases to +75 xp to 16 where it is +100 xp until 19.4 where the penalty goes away. It works out to look like the following:

Base -50 xp per death
level 2: -50 xp per death
level 3: -75 xp per death
level 4: -100 xp per death
level 5: -125 xp per death
level 6: -150 xp per death
level 7: -200 xp per death
level 8: -250 xp per death
level 9: -300 xp per death
level 10: -350 xp per death
level 11: -400 xp per death
level 12: -450 xp per death
level 13: -525 xp per death
level 14: -600 xp per death
level 15: -675 xp per death
level 16: -750 xp per death
level 17: -850 xp per death
level 18: -950 xp per death
level 19: -1050 xp per death

*Experience Debt should also have it where the amount of debt is decreased while logged out of the game as well at the old rate (I believe it was -5% debt per hour logged out)

What does this do?

1) This system doesn't punish people as badly as the older xp debt system and actually leads to a more reasonable loss in experience per death based more around the quests you'll be running. With the addition of Rare Encounters giving experience per time completed, an experience hit now has another medium through which to get rid of experience death along with running other quests.

I will agree that the older system was flawed in that experience lost per death wasn't scaled to be balanced around content in the game other than Gianthold which was worth zounds of experience but is now worth so much less that if the older penalty was brought back to the game, then fighting off the amount of experience would become a chore in itself.

2) Encourages grouping once again, as death will no longer equal a universal hit for everyone if a death was from someone acting deliberately stupid or biting off more than they can chew or running through a trap that they can blatantly see. Death is now more personalized and aligned with games where you'd lose experience upon death anyway - Think World of Warcraft's spirit system wherein if you die while a spirit or choose to be raised at a tavern you lose experience upon death, or Diablo 2's corpse retrieval system.

Decreasing the amount of experience a group would be getting while someone has cleared a quest all the way to the end and allowed others to join their group in order to come for the end fight by falling into a spike pit ala Enter The Kobold is bad design. A number of scenarios indicate the horrible design of the current experience system with regards to death, which shouldn't, by design, create animosity amongst the player base towards one another from one person dying.

Now how does this go about instituting a better death system?

1) Death now hurts more than just a negative level or two and equipment damage, it hurts individual experience, but not in so bad of a way where it would equate to countless hours lost in game. The only way the penalty begins to really hurt is if you're heading into a quest you're ill equipped to do with a party and think that you're Hercules after the first death or two and repeatedly die. The amount of experience would still allow for countering the penalty to experience, but would make it where an individual would lose experience for, perhaps, their own actions (self-sustainability is easier as levels increase except for maybe barbarians). Combined with the current penalty, you're now hit in more areas than just some levels that can go away as you go. Think of Pen & Paper or even the Baldur's Gate series. If you die in the middle of a battle and then are resurrected afterward, you lose out on the experience of the encounter. This reflects that type of system by lowering your amount for the quest, as you weren't alive during it to help the team complete the objectives. In essence, you're getting experience for the amount of time you were alive helping your party.

But this would equate to a problem wherein "inadequate healing" would also lead to animosity amongst players, but at that point its more of a debate about the circumstances surrounding your death. You were low on life, did you jump out of the fray? If yes, then maybe it was the cleric, maybe it wasn't. If no, that was your decision. The only problem would be instances of required death, where the only one I can think of is the Shroud (although it looks to be that they have that problem fixed anyway).

Some would argue the applicative merits of the system, but I'm not about to get into what teaches a player to play better and what doesn't right now. I'm more concerned with everyone getting a hit off of their experience, unfairly, from one person dying in maybe a stupid way or a brave way. This current system is too punishing on other players for the actions of one individual.

[penumbra]

if we are going to change this bonus to be only affect individuals then i say we change ALL party bonuses to only affect individuals. you broke the most crates? you get the ransack bonus. you killed the most? you get that bonus. you didn't re-enter the quest? another bonus for you. why are we singling out just one PARTY bonus to be changed to affect the individual that earned it?

[Phidius]

Let me phrase it this way:

The loss of 10% XP is the reason why i dont pug any more...

Are you saying before they instituted the bonus you never pugged? They haven't taken any XP away. You always got less XP back then, and not just when a party member died. If they took the current bonus away would you be happier?...

Nope, and that's why the request to make the bonus on an individual basis instead of for the whole group. The current bonus gets taken away from EVERYONE when even one yahoo dies. Here's a paraphrased conversation to further illustrate.

Party: PlayerB: Hey, this is going pretty well... I think I'll level after this!
Party: PlayerA: Looks like PlayerF wants to join - should I let him?
Party: PlayerC: Nah - PlayerF always dies...
Party: PlayerB: Yeah... I want to level before bed... tell him that we're full.

If the loss of the 10% was on an individual basis, PlayerF might have been accepted, presuming a less-skilled 4th wouldn't cause a wipe thanks to the magic of Dungeon Scaling...

[Phidius]

if we are going to change this bonus to be only affect individuals then i say we change ALL party bonuses to only affect individuals. you broke the most crates? you get the ransack bonus. you killed the most? you get that bonus. you didn't re-enter the quest? another bonus for you. why are we singling out just one PARTY bonus to be changed to affect the individual that earned it?

Because it's one of the 2 that can be lost if ONE person drops the ball. Yeah, the bonus for not re-entering the quest should be individual too, but it's pretty rare for someone to "accidentally" re-enter.

Notice you don't lose the bonus for Ingenious Debilitation if the other rogue blows up a trap box...

[Noctus]

Are you saying before they instituted the bonus you never pugged?

Before Dungeon-Scaling and "Less XP for everyone in case someone dies" i pugged every run, because it didnt matter if some random dude died (it was his personal problem). You didnt get punished if he tried to twitch an elite- trap the rogue was just disarming, or zerged off in a totally different direction, or decided to take a lava-bath, or decided to fight alone against a dozen monsters simultaneously because of his imagined überness while the rest of the group is fighting in the doorway against 2 of the monsters at a time, or found another way to get himself killed all alone by his own personal fault.
...
and even if he nearly contributed nothing to the fights, it didnt matter. Some contribution to the monster´s death was still better than an empty slot. In the worst case it didnt make a difference if you kept the slot empty or the guy piked the whole quest. But today Dungeon Scaling actually makes the monsters tougher if you hae a warm body standing at the quest entrance, doing nothing. So an empty slot can indeed contribute more to the groups success that a player character. :rolleyes: --> But this is a completly different story, and i personally see the overall advantages for the whole of DDO of having dungeon scaling. So i dont complain about that.





They haven't taken any XP away. You always got less XP back then, and not just when a party member died. If they took the current bonus away would you be happier? Then you again would always get less XP.


I dont choose between playing then and playing now. I have to make this decision now, and its between:

* short maning / soloing a run and getting an almost guaranteed +10% XP
* letting a pugger in the group who might be anything from a hardcore twinked vet down to a zero-contribution piker who manages to get hinself drowned on the way to loot a chest. You never know, but on average the chance of loosing the bonus raises massively. (from almost zero to noticeable)


In the end it doenst matter if i loose a bonus or get a penalty. Its just semantics. I will end the quest with 10% less XP than i could have earned.


Penalizing people for grouping in a group-based game is a decidedly bad idea. Making it riskier to come out of a quest with full possible XP is indeed a disincentive to pugging.

[Gremmlynn]

I find it a nice little bonus to encourage players to watch each others backs, but nothing to worry about losing. But then I run quests I like and don't sweat how much xp they give. The way I see it, there really isn't much to this game except running quests and no real incentive to xp at any particular rate to reach some sort of "end game" that is really any different than the rest of the game. Maybe I just don't take it seriously enough to lose sleep over missing a small bonus.

[Kyrn]

The glass is half empty.
The glass is half full.

People who takes the first view will eternally be disappointed.

[QuantumFX]

OK. Been thinking about this for a while now.

How about they eliminate the Flawless Victory bonus and instead give us a buff upon entering a dungeon:

Happy Ending (Yes, I can’t wait to hear all the jokes over this name!)
Area of Effect: Personal.
Duration: Ends upon death or when you leave an instance.
Effect: This effect gives a +10% bonus to XP gained and stacks with all other sources of XP. Upon Dungeon completion this buff also gives a +1 bonus to all loot and does not stack with other bonus loot buffs.

[Kyrn]

OK. Been thinking about this for a while now.

How about they eliminate the Flawless Victory bonus and instead give us a buff upon entering a dungeon:

Happy Ending (Yes, I can’t wait to hear all the jokes over this name!)
Area of Effect: Personal.
Duration: Ends upon death or when you leave an instance.
Effect: This effect gives a +10% bonus to XP gained and stacks with all other sources of XP. Upon Dungeon completion this buff also gives a +1 bonus to all loot and does not stack with other bonus loot buffs.

No different from all the other suggestions here, which is essentially a 10% base XP increase for everyone, except that you are ALSO asking for a loot boost.

Get in line, not that the line ever moves.

[Phidius]

The glass is half empty.
The glass is half full.

People who takes the first view will eternally be disappointed.

I prefer the view of...

"Excuse me, the other guy already drank half of this. May I get my own drink, please?"

[Kyrn]

I prefer the view of...

"Excuse me, the other guy already drank half of this. May I get my own drink, please?"

Except that the drink was FREE. Take it or leave it.

[tinyelvis]

if we are going to change this bonus to be only affect individuals then i say we change ALL party bonuses to only affect individuals. you broke the most crates? you get the ransack bonus. you killed the most? you get that bonus. you didn't re-enter the quest? another bonus for you. why are we singling out just one PARTY bonus to be changed to affect the individual that earned it?

I agree, I don't understand why folks focus on the party death bonus. If they argue for a personal penalty applied there why not elsewhere to other positive bonuses.

Other Positive Bonuses that likewise should be changed.
1. You did not break the most crates, anyone who does not break the most crates loses 10%.
2. You did not get the most kills, anyone who did not get the most kills loses 10%

At least if they did, their comments would make more sense. Its a positive party bonus above and beyond the original XP awarded for the quest. If you don't like it and successfully lobby to have it removed, then you get no bonus ever.

[tinyelvis]

Before Dungeon-Scaling and........ But today Dungeon Scaling actually makes the monsters tougher if you hae a warm body standing at the quest entrance, doing nothing..........

* short maning / soloing a run and getting an almost guaranteed +10% XP
* letting a pugger in the group who might be anything from a hardcore twinked vet down to a zero-contribution piker who manages to get hinself drowned on the way to loot a chest. You never know, but on average the chance of loosing the bonus raises massively. (from almost zero to noticeable)
.........

Penalizing people for grouping in a group-based game is a decidedly bad idea. Making it riskier to come out of a quest with full possible XP is indeed a disincentive to pugging.

If you really are the humanitarian and defender of the Pug, and if you truly believe that the bonus has killed off pugging, then why don't you argue for the elimination of the bonus all together. In fact, why don't you boycott the bonus in protest. In true solidarity for the poor pugger, you could kill yourself in each quest. If everyone were convinced to do this, then in effect things would be put back as before.

Further, the quests are not harder than before with more people, but rather easier (in some cases much easier) than before with less people. This whole issue revolves around a feeling that some people have of entitlement to a 10% bonus. This is not about taking on pugs. If it was, I could understand it better. In that case, you would be arguing to eliminate the 10% bonus completely. This is just about the greed of some elitist folks (especially those quick to point fingers and blame others) who feel entitled to an extra 10% XP, and use it as an excuse not to play with pugs. 10% XP that did not exist until someone came up with another positive bonus in addition to crates broke and mobs killed.

If anyone should get penalized for a party death, it should be the party leader.

[Kyrn]

If anyone should get penalized for a party death, it should be the party leader.

Absolute NO. This will kill pugging outright. (except for the few who play for fun)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

But the old system was far more discouraging towards pugging than the current system. In those days, one death could wipe out the XP from an entire quest for that player. How many times did you hear of players simply logging out of the game after a death in the middle of a quest back in those days? I knew of several people that quit the game simply because it became too much effort to try to overcome the XP penalties that a handful of deaths from something like a dragon raid could generate. At least under the current system, you don't feel like a few hours of gaming can leave you worse off than when you started.

I never heard of players simply logging out due to deaths. I guess just didn't play with the type of players who acted that way. I don't even recall puggers doing that. And nothign about it discouraged pugging since puggers dying didn't hurt you. At any rate I didn't suggest we had to go back to that exact system, I was just pointing out that we used to have the death penalty focussed on the person who died. You could change it to the current 10% penalty, but only for the person who died if you wanted.


I don't think you understand, and am not sure how to make it much clearer. There currently is no XP penalty. They added a bonus. That means more potential XP not less.

I don't think you understand, loss of a bonus and getting a penalty are mathmatically the same thing. What's more they nerfed xp throughout the game at the same time they added this 'bonus' in a rebalancing that meant you pretty much needed the bonus to get back to the original xp for many popular quests. This isn't free new XP, its XP that used to be built in that they pulled out to make a bonus.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

if we are going to change this bonus to be only affect individuals then i say we change ALL party bonuses to only affect individuals. you broke the most crates? you get the ransack bonus. you killed the most? you get that bonus. you didn't re-enter the quest? another bonus for you. why are we singling out just one PARTY bonus to be changed to affect the individual that earned it?

Actually on reentry the reentering person takes the biggest hit.

And the reentry penalty is because reentry makes it easier for the whole group as new resources are brought in, so it makes sense to hit the group.

Who broke the most boses or got the most last 1hp on kills doesn't necessarily reflect total work/value to the party, its not a logical driver for xp.

Idiot being and Idiot and dying is not the groups fault and should be reflected on the Idiot not the group.

Plus shared bonuses for work done encourages grouping, which is good. Shared penalties for deaths discourages grouping, which is bad.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Before Dungeon-Scaling and "Less XP for everyone in case someone dies" i pugged every run, because it didnt matter if some random dude died (it was his personal problem). You didnt get punished if he tried to twitch an elite- trap the rogue was just disarming, or zerged off in a totally different direction, or decided to take a lava-bath, or decided to fight alone against a dozen monsters simultaneously because of his imagined überness while the rest of the group is fighting in the doorway against 2 of the monsters at a time, or found another way to get himself killed all alone by his own personal fault.
...
and even if he nearly contributed nothing to the fights, it didnt matter. Some contribution to the monster´s death was still better than an empty slot. In the worst case it didnt make a difference if you kept the slot empty or the guy piked the whole quest. But today Dungeon Scaling actually makes the monsters tougher if you hae a warm body standing at the quest entrance, doing nothing. So an empty slot can indeed contribute more to the groups success that a player character. :rolleyes: --> But this is a completly different story, and i personally see the overall advantages for the whole of DDO of having dungeon scaling. So i dont complain about that.

I dont choose between playing then and playing now. I have to make this decision now, and its between:

* short maning / soloing a run and getting an almost guaranteed +10% XP
* letting a pugger in the group who might be anything from a hardcore twinked vet down to a zero-contribution piker who manages to get hinself drowned on the way to loot a chest. You never know, but on average the chance of loosing the bonus raises massively. (from almost zero to noticeable)


In the end it doenst matter if i loose a bonus or get a penalty. Its just semantics. I will end the quest with 10% less XP than i could have earned.


Penalizing people for grouping in a group-based game is a decidedly bad idea. Making it riskier to come out of a quest with full possible XP is indeed a disincentive to pugging.

Exactly, dungeon scaling and the death penalty (and to some degree xp potions) have contributed in a serious way to discourage grouping. I know Turbine wanted to make it easier to solo, but its gone past that to the point they have made it almost stupid to group.

[Noctus]

If you really are the humanitarian and defender of the Pug, and if you truly believe that the bonus has killed off pugging, then why don't you argue for the elimination of the bonus all together. In fact, why don't you boycott the bonus in protest. In true solidarity for the poor pugger, you could kill yourself in each quest. If everyone were convinced to do this, then in effect things would be put back as before.


I dont "truly believe". I either know or i dont. And i know it killed pugging of for me. And thats all i ever claimed, you dont need to put words into my mouth and become sarcastic.





Further, the quests are not harder than before with more people, but rather easier (in some cases much easier) than before with less people. This whole issue revolves around a feeling that some people have of entitlement to a 10% bonus. This is not about taking on pugs. If it was, I could understand it better. In that case, you would be arguing to eliminate the 10% bonus completely. This is just about the greed of some elitist folks (especially those quick to point fingers and blame others) who feel entitled to an extra 10% XP, and use it as an excuse not to play with pugs. 10% XP that did not exist until someone came up with another positive bonus in addition to crates broke and mobs killed.

If anyone should get penalized for a party death, it should be the party leader.
You simply dont get it. In several ways.

[Cyr]

The old death penalty was dumb for three reasons.

1) Negative XP accumulation for new players could and did lead to people leaving the game never to come back.

2) It meant NOTHING at cap.

3) There was no real penalty as far as odds of completing the quest beyond being debuffed when you died. This is in stark contrast to the current system which very much increases the odds of a party wipe or a mostly useless player after a few deaths.

As to the OP's question. Of course this has been considered. We used to have a system that only penalized the person who died.

[muffinlad]

I see both sides of this, and think there have been some very interesting and important points. Even if the thread never changes anything, I think it was a worthwhile top, so well done.

From my point of view I like the set up as it currently is. I did not care for many of the past exp. break downs, including exp. debt, as the game is still frequently far too laggy to have that level of play demand considering the challenges we now face on some of the higher level quests.

For me, esp. when I play a cleric or FvS, I am aware of the bonus, and do my utmost to keep folks up to save the 10% for all. I don't get it all the time, but that is why it is a BONUS to me (something extra) instead of a penalty (something I was fined). I assume that each time I go on a PUG, I have the chance to play with Clueless Carl, Zerger Zack, Kid Talksalot, Old Bitter, and Happy the Oblivious.

Carl has never done the quest and will do three to four things to get either himself killed or others killed during the mission.

Zerger Zack will wonder where the heck the rest of us are, and why he is laying in a pool of his own life juice that is slowly draining down to negative 10.

Kid Talksalot (who is very good in school, and only has adults for friends) is going to speak every action he takes (I am swinging...I am swinging, now I am running....I found a chest) loud enough that every wandering monster (and some of the party) are going to find him and agg on him first (even though the game does not work that way...karma does).

Old Bitter will constantly recite PnP rules and wonder why DDO is not exactly like his favorite version in precise detail. He will occasionally refuse to help someone (esp. Zerger Zack), or lecture someone (Kid Talksalot) while others are fighting.

Happy the Oblivious will generally fight, laugh, fight some more and miss every chest, run into every trap, and really not care if they die or not, regardless of penalty. It is not that Happy is incompetent....Happy just likes hanging with folks and "Why so Serious?" is Happy's motto.

Now...for keeping this crew alive...I deserve a bonus.

To address the rather excellent point raised by several in the thread that the threat of teaming with these folks discourages pugging, I would offer the following:

Observational Evidence accross several servers suggests that this is not occuring with the frequency implied, as there are many, many LFM's up looking for folks, esp. since the launch of F2P. I concede that there may be SOME players who feel so strongly about the 10% (which they see as a penalty, being mathematically similar to absence of a bonus, as pointed out by others-esp in coordination with the reduction of exp. that many quests suffered) that they will not pug.

I would suggest that a strong precentage of those folks would rarely pug anyway. Not ALL. Many, if not most. We would change the rewards without really changing behavior.

If we want to encourage full groups, and pugging, one way to do that would be to take the bonus 10% AWAY entirely for solo play, 5% for duo play, 7.5% for three, 10% for four players, 12.5% for 5 players and 15% for 6+ players on a team. This reflects the real bonus for keeping folks alive based on the number of players you have, etc.

Naturally, it would not stop dual boxing etc. but it would encourage folks to talke more people and keep them alive, while other folks would just not care about the 10% and solo or duo it anyway.

Food for though, anyway.

muffinideas

[Lorien_the_First_One]

2) It meant NOTHING at cap.

The new xp penalty means nothing at cap either.

[Phidius]

I prefer the view of...

"Excuse me, the other guy already drank half of this. May I get my own drink, please?"

Except that the drink was FREE. Take it or leave it.

I don't care if it's FREE, or even if they are paying me to drink it... I ain't drinking after the other guy :D

On a serious note, though, it's not free - at least, not for a majority of the quests I run. I either have to buy the pack, or pay a subscription. Therefore, that puts me in the role of a customer, and customers are well within their right to request a better product.

It's no problem for me either way - soloing isn't as hard as it used to be.

[Xeraphim]

VIP - no group penalty, individual penalty. This means self-heal, carry potions, or use tactics.
True Reincarnate - no group penalty for non-TR death(28-32 point), penalty for own death. If a fellow True Reincarnate dies, -5% if it was a 34 point build and -10% if it was a 36 point. This penalty caps at 10% total and does not stack with other death penalties.
Non-Reincarnate Non-VIP - group penalty for 1 death, whether it is yours or not.

[Kyrn]

It's no problem for me either way - soloing isn't as hard as it used to be.

And on that note, THIS is why there are less groups. If you want to encourage groups, remove dungeon scaling, base content to assume 4-6 competant players. (note, not exceptional, TRed, "challenge me" players)

Of cause, the question is whether grouping is encouraged more than solo play...

But back on topic:
There are two groups of people:
1) Those who believe that a global penalty/bonus will encourage teamwork.
2) Those who believe that a removal of personal risk/increase of personal gain will encourage teamwork.

Frankly, I prefer the selfless incentive than the selfish incentive.

[Phidius]

It's no problem for me either way - soloing isn't as hard as it used to be.

And on that note, THIS is why there are less groups. If you want to encourage groups, remove dungeon scaling, base content to assume 4-6 competant players. (note, not exceptional, TRed, "challenge me" players)

Of cause, the question is whether grouping is encouraged more than solo play...

But back on topic:
There are two groups of people:
1) Those who believe that a global penalty/bonus will encourage teamwork.
2) Those who believe that a removal of personal risk/increase of personal gain will encourage teamwork.

Frankly, I prefer the selfless incentive than the selfish incentive.

I totally agree with removing dungeon scaling.

And when I find myself in a group, I definitely find myself looking out for other people more... at least, until the first person dies. After that, they're on their own.

The problem is because I believe people are going to find ways to kill themselves, I just solo when I need XP, and group when I don't. A slight change to the way the bonus is granted/taken away would fix that.

On the other hand, I'm the type of melee who scroll heals the healers in part 4 of the Shroud...

[calavel]

The old penalty was an xp penalty on death for the person who died. I liked that better.

The current system makes people not want to pug, and that's not good for the game.

Well, I halfway agree. I don't know if xp penalties are a good or bad idea, but I do know that the current system discourages PUGging because a lot of people see the 10% flawless victory bonus as something they deserve, not something you have to earn. Therefore, these people don't want newbs in their group, dying and taking away their xp. I think it's a big problem.

[Evilp3nquin]

But the old system was far more discouraging towards pugging than the current system. In those days, one death could wipe out the XP from an entire quest for that player. How many times did you hear of players simply logging out of the game after a death in the middle of a quest back in those days? I knew of several people that quit the game simply because it became too much effort to try to overcome the XP penalties that a handful of deaths from something like a dragon raid could generate. At least under the current system, you don't feel like a few hours of gaming can leave you worse off than when you started.

I agree. I used to play FF online and that was always the worst part about dying was losing XP. yes it would make some people smarten up, but I think over all it would cause more people to leave the game.