My Ranged DPS Calculations

[sirdanile]

WARNING MATH: Let me know if I missed/Messed up on anything, this math is using my level 20 rangers stats (32 strength, capstone, arcane archer)

Got into an argument over on thelanis with my buddy and decided to do these calculations, I will compare 3 bows, Epic Thornlord, air-pos-airpos lightning strike bow, and pos-air-airpos lightning strike bow. (Later Addition to include Abbot and Silver bow...Everything will be updated accordingly.)

Assumptions - Enemies are a Favored enemy, +14 total to damage via Enhancements, +11 via Strength, all effects go off and all attacks hit except for 1s, Imp critical ranged, Arcane Archer +5 arrows.

Relevant Average Dice Rolls:
1d6 - 3.5
2d6 - 7
4d6 - 14
1d8 - 4.5
2d8 - 9
1d10 - 5.5
2d10 - 11
2d12 - 13

Shots per minute = 67 (if incorrect let me know, I keep hearing conflicting numbers.)

Slayer Arrows: 500 * 1/20 = 25
Greensteel Burst Effects (Burst/Blast) : 11*2/20 = 1.1 | (14 * 1/20) = 0.7 | 1.1 + 0.7 = 1.8
Shimmering Arrowhead Trinket: Silver Bow/Thornlord/Elements(air): 4 * 4/20 = 0.8 * 3 = 2.4 Damage added on crits |Abbot/Greensteel/Shattering: 4* 2/20 = 0.4 * 3 = 1.2 damage added on crits.
Lightning Strike 2.5% chance to proc for 550-650 damage, average = 600 | 600 * .025/20 = 15

Manyshot = *4 dps 1/6 of the time. (100 second cooldown, 20 second duration – total 2 minutes)


RESULTS:
Unwavering Ardency: 151.49817 DPS (Needs updated)
Silver Longbow: 136 DPS
Epic Shatterbow: 173.96773 DPS (Versus Constructs) (Needs Updated)
Epic Bow Of The Elements(Air): 176.94477 DPS (Needs Updated)
Epic Thornlord: 161 DPS
Air-Pos-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow: 162 DPS
Pos-Air-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow: 167 DPS

It is a shame to see that a min level 20 bow with an associated massive grind is outdone by a mere shroud crafted bow, the Epic Thornlord should be the Sword of Shadows of ranged weaponry but falls short of this by quite a lot, suggestions to improve the Thornlord would be further Increasing the hidden damage bonus, Increasing the enhancement bonus to +10, and increasing the crit multiplier to x4.

*Update* The dps chart is updated completely, The epic bow of elements air fell behind the updated epic thornlord and nothing else changed although the gap between the epic bows and greensteel closed slightly.

[sirdanile]

Epic Thornlord: (2d8 + 4 + 8 + 14 + 11 + 3 + 2) 17-20/x3 (UPDATED)

9 + 42 = 51
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead
(0*1/20) + (51*15/20) + (153 * 4/20) + 25 + 2.4
0 + 38.25 + 30.6 + 25 + 2.4 = 96.25 Damage Per Shot

67*96.25 = 6448.75 / 60 = 107.47917 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

96.25*4 = 385 * 1/6 = 64.17
96.25 * 5/6 = 80.2083
80.2083 + 64.17 = 144.3783 Damage Per Shot
67*144.3783 = 9673.3461 / 60 = 161.222435 Damage Per Second

[sirdanile]

Air-Pos-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow (1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2) + (Burst/Blasts) 19-20/x3 + Lightning Strike (UPDATED)

5.5 + 5 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2 = 40.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead + Bursts/blasts + Lightning Strike
(0 * 1/20) + (40.5 * 17/20) + (121.5 * 2/20) 3.5 + 3.5 + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15
0 + 34.425 + 12.15 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15 = 96.575 Damage Per Shot

67 * 96.575 = 6470.525 / 60 = 107.842083 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

96.575 * 4 = 386.3 * 1/6 = 64.383
96.575 * 5/6 = 80.479167
64.383 + 80.479167 = 144.862167 Damage Per Shot
67 * 9705.765189 = / 60 = 161.7627532 Damage Per Second

[sirdanile]

Pos-Air-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow (1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 1d6 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2) + (Burst/Blasts) 19-20/x3 + Lightning Strike (UPDATED)

5.5 + 5 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2 = 40.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead + Bursts/blasts + Lightning Strike
(0 * 1/20) + (40.5 * 17/20) + (121.5 * 2/20) + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15 + 7 + 3.5 - In progress HERE
0 + 34.425 + 12.15 + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15 + 7 + 3.5 = 100.075 Damage Per Shot

67 * 100.075 = 6705.025 / 60 = 111.7504167 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

100.075 * 4 = 400.3 * 1/6 = 66.7167
100.075 * 5/6 = 83.39583
83.39583 + 66.7167 = 150.11253 Damage Per Shot
67 * 150.11253 = 10057.53951 / 60 = 167.6256585 Damage Per Second

[Chai]

/prepares to duck the stampede of melee min maxer lynch mobs the minute the OP reveals that ranged is actually only 4 or 5 damage less than a halfling barbarian TWFing clubs of the holy flames while unhasted and slowed by trog stink poison.

[sirdanile]

According to http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906 an elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , itwf is sitting higher than a pretty well geared ranged focused ranger. :'(

[Emili]

The SoS is not the epitome of melee weapons under every circumstance also... It does poise the best as a general purpose beater but under much the endgame outside epic vons fits in the hands of a pally best.

[Emili]

According to http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906 an elf , cleric 18 / monk 2, w/ longswords , wo/ divine might , itwf is sitting higher than a pretty well geared ranged focused ranger. :'(
I always advocated an increase rof but not by much... I also believe AA belongs more in the wizard realm then in the ranger - as typical dnd is a mixed - and that deep woods should be more about archery.

[Lifespawn]

try a crit rage bowbarian 14 barb 6 ranger with the silver bow and raged 54 str arcane archer.

oh and isn't the abbot bow decent?

I know ranged isn't great dps but for manyshot it's awesome i twf when not on a manyshot or lots of mobs lined up.

[sirdanile]

The abbot bow is 2d12 damage, slowburst, cursespewing, but it's got the normal crit range If I remember correctly.

I'll throw up silver bow and abbot bow dps calcs pretty soon.

EDIT

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/UnwaveringArdency.jpg


try a crit rage bowbarian 14 barb 6 ranger with the silver bow and raged 54 str arcane archer.


Crit rage does not exist anymore and as such I shall not do that dps calc, besides you're only getting t-1 of the 5 tier class gaining a whopping 1d6 imbue and a free bow strength.



I know ranged isn't great dps but for manyshot it's awesome i twf when not on a manyshot or lots of mobs lined up.


Agreed, manyshot is pure awesome, it is also much more effective to use another combat style between manyshots although personally I believe going ranged all the time should be a viable option.

[sirdanile]

Unwavering Ardency: (2d12 + 5 + 14 + 11 + 3 + 2) 19-20/x3 (NEEDS UPDATED)

13 + 5 + 11 + 14 + 5 = 48
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead
(0*1/20) + (48 * 17/20) + ( * 2/20) + 25 + 1.2
0 + 40.8 + 14.4 + 25 + 1.2 = 81.4 Damage Per Shot

67*81.4 = 5453.8 / 60 = 90.897 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

81.4*4 = 325.6 * 1/6 = 54.27 additional Damage Per Shot
81.4 + 54.27 = 135.67 Damage Per Shot
67 * 135.67 = 9089.89 / 60 = 151.49817 Damage Per Second

Analysis: This bow is a huge drop between lightning strike at 32 dps...the only reason to consider using this is it's slowburst which would go off .5% of the time and it's cursespewing which would land only 5% of the time, both depending on the enemy rolling 1s. Fear immunity is easily obtained through many other items or spells.

[sirdanile]

Silver Longbow: (1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 14 + 11 + 2 + 3) 17-20/x3 (UPDATED)

10.5 + 30 = 40.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead
(0*1/20) + (40.5 * 15/20) + (121.5 * 4/20) + 25 + 2.4 + 7
0 + 34.425 + 12.15 + 25 + 2.4 + 7 = 80.975 Damage Per Shot

67*80.975 = 5425.325 / 60 = 90.422083 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

80.975 * 4 = 323.9 * 1/6 = 53.983
80.975 * 5/6 = 67.479167
53.983 + 67.479167 = 121.462167 Damage Per Shot
67 * 121.462167 = 8137.965189 / 60 = 135.6327532 Damage Per Second

Analysis: While weak this bow which requires a quick trip to the auction house or several favor runs to acquire is only 4 dps under the epic Thornlord, it is quite a bit below a lit II at around 21 dps less. Keep it in mind that for bypassing Harry's damage reduction the bonus of this bow drops to +2 and not +5 making it even more significantly worse for running any content with dr/good+silver although assuredly taking the full force of the damage reduction would be a larger drop in dps.

[Lifespawn]

The abbot bow is 2d12 damage, slowburst, cursespewing, but it's got the normal crit range If I remember correctly.

I'll throw up silver bow and abbot bow dps calcs pretty soon.

EDIT

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/UnwaveringArdency.jpg



Crit rage does not exist anymore and as such I shall not do that dps calc, besides you're only getting t-1 of the 5 tier class gaining a whopping 1d6 imbue and a free bow strength.



Agreed, manyshot is pure awesome, it is also much more effective to use another combat style between manyshots although personally I believe going ranged all the time should be a viable option.

sry i'll be more specific elven bowbarian has full arcane archer and crit rage 2

[Glenalth]

Here's a way you can plug in your own stats and bonuses to figure out which bow is best suited to you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247425

[Creeper]

The SoS is not the epitome of melee weapons under every circumstance also... It does poise the best as a general purpose beater but under much the endgame outside epic vons fits in the hands of a pally best.



Do what now? Why does Epic SoS best fit into the hands of a pally?

[Visty]

Do what now? Why does Epic SoS best fit into the hands of a pally?

because pallys can add the silver shard to the sos and with the capstone can bypass any relevant DR while other classes cant do that

[Creeper]

because pallys can add the silver shard to the sos and with the capstone can bypass any relevant DR while other classes cant do that

So I guess my question really is; what mob has high enough good DR to make a non-capped-paladin do more damage with another weapon?

[sirdanile]

sry i'll be more specific elven bowbarian has full arcane archer and crit rage 2

While I would do that calculation I still stand by the fact that crit rage no longer exists, if another barb pre comes out that allows for crit range multipliers I will certainly do calculations for it. (heres lookin' at you ravager...)

Now I will admit that the epic thornlord MIGHT pull ahead of the lit II should you add another 20 strength or so and boost the crit range some more due to the nature of critical hits it is still quite ridiculous it takes that much for an epic weapon to pass a level 12 weapon with a similar grind factor and barely outclass a level 6 bow.


So I guess my question really is; what mob has high enough good DR to make a non-capped-paladin do more damage with another weapon?

I'm uncertain what enemies would qualify but also remember in the hands of a capped paladin dual epic Chaosblades can kick some major tail as well...though I would prefer you move any conversation about melee dps to a different thread :)


Here's a way you can plug in your own stats and bonuses to figure out which bow is best suited to you.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247425

Thanks for the link that seems to be a generally useful spreadsheet, although the Lightning strike bow will stay ahead of the other bows for quite a long time due to the massive difference, in general no matter what build you have the bows should stay roughly equal to where they are now, the only major influence would be critical hits which could possibly bring the epic thornlord up past the pure good Lit II with enough multiplied damage.

Actually I should redo these dps calcs with a kensai 3 Elven arcane archer, i'll probably pull some figures from a different build and post all 5 at the same time... If someone knows how effective the fighters haste boost is in regards to ranged combat please let me know it will save some time in figuring out the dps.

*looks forward to the Epic Silver Longbow and Unwavering Ardency...*

[Xyfiel]

1) Epic Bow of the Elements Air should outdps all of them, need to add it in
2) Numbers for ranged on capstone Ranger with rapid reload and quickdraw
unhasted with abbot quiver or black dragonscale 129 repeater 67 bow 71 returner, hasted 135/71/75
3) After manyshot you should use a repeater
4) Are you factoring in all the damage modifiers? This increases repeater and higher crit range bows more the the others. +6 TR, +2 fb set, +2 shintao set, +1 prayer, +2 enhancement, +1 pbs, +9 song, +2 rams, +1 litany, seeker 8 epic bloodstone. 32 str is too low, 44 can be done consistently, and 50+ using titan's grip is possible.

My calculations show a maxed Ranger using Epic Thornlord or Elements depending on mob immunity, and a lit II repeater during manyshot cooldown.

[Creeper]

Actually I should redo these dps calcs with a kensai 3 Elven arcane archer, i'll probably pull some figures from a different build and post all 5 at the same time... If someone knows how effective the fighters haste boost is in regards to ranged combat please let me know it will save some time in figuring out the dps.


Remember that you'll need to take at least one level of a spellcasting class (bard probaly best option) to pick up AA on a kensai III.

[sirdanile]

1) Epic Bow of the Elements Air should outdps all of them, need to add it in
2) Numbers for ranged on capstone Ranger with rapid reload and quickdraw
unhasted with abbot quiver or black dragonscale 129 repeater 67 bow 71 returner, hasted 135/71/75
3) After manyshot you should use a repeater
4) Are you factoring in all the damage modifiers? This increases repeater and higher crit range bows more the the others. +6 TR, +2 fb set, +2 shintao set, +1 prayer, +2 enhancement, +1 pbs, +9 song, +2 rams, +1 litany, seeker 8 epic bloodstone. 32 str is too low, 44 can be done consistently, and 50+ using titan's grip is possible.

My calculations show a maxed Ranger using Epic Thornlord or Elements depending on mob immunity, and a lit II repeater during manyshot cooldown.

I should probably factor in the +2 damage for rams, i'll give the epic bow of elements(air) a shot after dinner probably, if I can find a picture... the named items thread doesn't have a picture.

It is a good thing that I used 67 shots per minute, I believe I searched through your posts to find that number for my calculations.

As for +6 tr I am not factoring that in because of the need to tr 3 times to acquire it, while it would be worth it in the end it's a long term goal and not common enough to be included, which is probably the reason you didnt include 3x reincarnate as a monk for another +3 or x3 as a rogue for +3 sneak attack which is active the same distance pbs is.

The FB and Shintao sets are mutually exclusive I believe so if I were to include them I would throw in +2 damage, I unfortunately do not have either set and as such did not include it in my original calculations.

+1 prayer/+9 songs/+1 pbs/+1 litany/+8 seeker are all either situational or hard to acquire, the litany takes up the arrowheads spot and I suppose you could use the epic bloodstone if you really want to but my personal belief is that the arrowhead ups survivability while adding a nice damage boost.

32 strength is from 30 base +2 rams, I have not included rage or yugoloth potions despite having them on my character, Yugoloth because of the downside and how semi-difficult it is to acquire them on an archer and rage because it doesnt last any good length of time unless cast by an ally, and then it falls under the situational category... I don't see getting quite as high as 44 unless you happen to use madstone and I like the ability to self-heal myself with spells and/or not get hit enough to proc temporary effects.

Agreed about the use of a repeater, although It is a shame because elves do not get a bonus to repeaters they get a boost to bows. (another +2 I forgot to add that is static)

Thank you for pointing out I am 4 base damage off on everything I have done so far and that I am using the right attack speed.


Remember that you'll need to take at least one level of a spellcasting class (bard probaly best option) to pick up AA on a kensai III.

Agreed bard is probably the best option as you gain access to UMD, though I am unsure what to take for the remaining level, ranger 1 for free bow strength probably or 1 barb for the speed boost, i'll have to think on it.

[Visty]

The FB and Shintao sets are mutually exclusive I believe so if I were to include them I would throw in +2 damage, I unfortunately do not have either set and as such did not include it in my original calculations.

you can use both for a total of +4dmg
shintao is a necky and fb is a belt

[sirdanile]

you can use both for a total of +4dmg
shintao is a necky and fb is a belt

Awesome, I didn't know that, thanks.



As an aside the reason i'm so hesitant about rolling up a kensai AA is the fact that you lose evasion, self cast healing, and self cast resists/protects, I am unsure about whether the damage gains over ranger vs non Favored enemies are worth the loss of that much survivability as being ranged focused you want to be extremely survivable due to your low dps you need to last as long as you can.

Another aside are my qualms about reincarnating, can I really stomach leveling up an archer again with more xp required for a mere +2 to base ranged damage much less 3 times with a higher xp required for +6... I suppose the main lure that might draw me to reincarnate would be the release of deepwoods snipers later tiers.

[Xeraphim]

We've known for ages that the developers absolutely loathe ranged combat, to the point of completely breaking it as compared to pen and paper. These calculations only server to further reinforce that glaring and inescapable fact.

DDO = Melee/Spell D&D Online. They should just remove ranged from the game instead of showing such expansive seething hatred for ranged combatants.

With Melee DPS so high, Ranged needs to come up to over 450 damage per second for Raids(without Greensteel.... ~490+/sec with a GS bow). This will take an overhaul of the currently intentionally destroyed system.

[Xyfiel]

It is in the loot thread, just Dragonstar is no longer updating the op. It is also in the compendium. Mainly it is similiar to the thornlord but instead of +4 damage, it has shocking burst.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2786942&postcount=2967

[sirdanile]

We've known for ages that the developers absolutely loathe ranged combat, to the point of completely breaking it as compared to pen and paper. These calculations only server to further reinforce that glaring and inescapable fact.


I recall reading something about the developers taking another look at ranged combat on these forums and if I remember correctly it was from a generally reliable inside source, depending on how effective/how long this "look" takes will probably affect my desire to reincarnate... as it stand decently geared ranged is not even coming close to 1/3 of the dps a decently geared melee is getting, while they SHOULD be more survivable what with kiting and things generally this leads to inexperienced players getting mad and quitting not to mention their party members who can't stand watching a ranger run in circles for a minute trying to kill an ogre and failing at the end due to the melee length being extended while moving.


It is in the loot thread, just Dragonstar is no longer updating the op. It is also in the compendium. Mainly it is similiar to the thornlord but instead of +4 damage, it has shocking burst.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2786942&postcount=2967

Thank you for the picture, I will post my calc using the previous numbers shown, I'll probably update the numbers later to include +2 from rams and +2 from elven racials soon, the difference between +2/+4 damage should also show how effective each reincarnate would work out to be should anyone decide to.

[sirdanile]

Epic Bow Of The Elements(Air): (2d8 + 2d6 + 6 + 14 + 11 + 3 + 2) + (2d10 burst) 17-20/x3 (NEEDS UPDATED, potentially not current)

9 + 3.5 + 31 + 5 = 48.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead + Burst
(0*1/20) + (48.5*15/20) + (145.5*4/20) + 25 + 2.4 + 2.2
0 + 36.375 + 29.1 + 25 + 2.4 + 2.2 = 95.075 Damage Per Shot

67*95.075 = 6370.025 / 60 = 106.167083 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

95.075*4 = 380.3 * 1/6 = 63.383 additional Damage Per Shot
95.075 + 63.383 = 158.458 Damage Per Shot
67*158.458 = 10616.686 / 60 = 176.94477 Damage Per Second

Analysis: Hm thats much better than the Epic Thornlord and a little bit worse than the Air-Pos-Airpos Greensteel longbow... Still falls short compared to Pos-Air-Airpos Greensteel Longbow though. It does give a colorless slot and +7 dex so you can drop an elven or ranger dex enhancement and consolidate your slots while retaining nearly the same effectiveness as the weaker Greensteel. The red can be slotted to bypass dr or deal 1 extra base damage.

[Seliana]

DDO = Melee/Spell D&D Online. They should just remove ranged from the game instead of showing such expansive seething hatred for ranged combatants.

With Melee DPS so high, Ranged needs to come up to over 450 damage per second for Raids(without Greensteel.... ~490+/sec with a GS bow). This will take an overhaul of the currently intentionally destroyed system.

DDO = Melee/Spell D&D Online? No this is DDO = Melee D&D Online. Show me this Sorcerer doing 450 damage per second sustained during every fight for an entire quest or raid. Maybe when Turbine gives Caster's massive spell point regeneration when attacking this equality might happen. If Turbine turns on the Reaver's Fate charge (+120 SP) for all Sorcerers while they are casting damage spells this might happen. Both ranged and casters need an overhaul of the currently intentionally destroyed system.

Oh...but then they wouldn't be making so much money off of us in the Turbine store. Heaven forbid they lose artificially created profits and balance our classes.

[sirdanile]

Reincarnating a ranger grants +2 extra base damage with a ranged weapon, to evaluate how effective this is I will run through a normal longbow with no +s from strength or anything else and the same bow used by a reincarnate.


Longbow no bonuses (1d8)
4.5 = 4.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (4.5 * 18/20) + (13.5 * 1/20)
0 + 4.05 + 0.675 = 4.725

Longbow w/ Reincarnate x1 (1d8 + 2)

4.5 + 2 = 6.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (6.5 * 18/20) + (19.5 * 1/20)
0 + 5.85 + 0.975 = 6.825

+2 Damage no bonuses
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (2 * 18/20) + (6 * 1/20)
0 + 1.8 + 0.3 = 2.1

In these examples the damage goes up by 2.1 per shot by adding the +2 damage which is double checked by running just +2 damage through the same calculations to get 2.1 again.

How will a higher critical range affect this?

+2 Damage no bonuses - Imp crit.
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (2 * 17/20) + (6 * 2/20)
0 + 1.7 + 0.6 = 2.3

Adding Imp Crit to this calculation results in a .2 increase in damage per shot, the base damage decreased by .1 while the crit damage dealt doubled.

Running through a 17-20/x3 example to mimic the effect on an epic or silver bow.

+2 Damage no bonuses - Imp crit - expanded crit range bow.
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (2 * 15/20) + (6 * 4/20)
0 + 1.5 + 1.2 = 2.7

Each single increase to crit adds .2 more damage total via reducing the non crit damage by .1 and adding .3 damage on to the crit.

How this relates to dps?
Lets take a capped ranger unhasted with a base attack speed of 67 shots per minute

using the first +2 calculation with normal crit range
2.1*67 = 140.7 / 60 = 2.345 DPS added by reincarnating.

using the second with Imp crit
2.3 * 67 = 154.1 / 60 = 2.56833 DPS added by reincarnating.

using the third with imp crit and expanded crit range bow
2.7 * 67 = 180.9 / 60 = 3.015 DPS added by reincarnating.


How would manyshot affect the usefulness of reincarnating?
using the first +2 calculation with normal crit range
2.1*4 = 8.4 * 1/6 = 1.4 Damage per shot added via manyshot

using the second with Imp crit
2.3 *4 = 9.2 * 1/6 = 1.533 Damage per shot added via manyshot

using the third with imp crit and expanded crit range bow
2.7 *4 = 10.8 * 1/6 = 1.8 Damage per shot added via manyshot

2.1 + 1.4 = 3.5 Total damage per shot
2.3 + 1.533 = 3.833 Total damage per shot
2.7 + 1.8 = 4.5 Total damage per shot

Lets take a capped ranger unhasted with a base attack speed of 67 shots per minute using the manyshot numbers.

using the first +2 calculation with normal crit range
3.5*67 = 234.5 / 60 = 3.90633 DPS added by reincarnating.

using the second with Imp crit
3.833 * 67 = 256.811 / 60 = 4.2801833 DPS added by reincarnating.

using the third with imp crit and expanded crit range bow
4.5 * 67 = 301.5 / 60 = 5.025 DPS added by reincarnating.

Final Analysis: Reincarnating is pretty useful overall and adds quite a bit of extra damage, another good reason for reincarnating is the energy resist +2 each time, if you were to reincarnate 3 times one could assume you multiply the end dps numbers by 3 and achieve 15.075 extra dps with an epic thornlord.

*test of that statement* if correct it should be 8.1 damage per shot

+6 Damage no bonuses - Imp crit - expanded crit range bow.
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits
(0 * 1/20) + (6 * 15/20) + (18 * 4/20)
0 + 4.5 + 3.6 = 8.1

[sirdanile]

DDO = Melee/Spell D&D Online? No this is DDO = Melee D&D Online. Show me this Sorcerer doing 450 damage per second sustained during every fight for an entire quest or raid. Maybe when Turbine gives Caster's massive spell point regeneration when attacking this equality might happen. If Turbine turns on the Reaver's Fate charge (+120 SP) for all Sorcerers while they are casting damage spells this might happen. Both ranged and casters need an overhaul of the currently intentionally destroyed system.


The thing about casters is they might not put out the alrgest dps/second, but they have utility such as instakills, crowd control, fogs, different elemental damage spells to take advantage of enemy weaknesses, spells that can get around enemies such as web or disintegrate vs golems, irresistable dance, they can debuff enemies via energy drain and can even contribute some nice dps with persistant aoe spells such as firewall. When the Sh*t hits the fan they can also pour out damage much faster than a melee can, with spell crits going up into the two thousands and normals being around the same as a normal barbarians critical hit.

Ranged sadly doesn't have a defined role, they can kind of crowd control with the shimmering arrowhead and paralyzing/cursespewing/stat damage bows, and yet that doesn't work very well after a limited time of usefulness 6-14, due to the low crit range smiters and banishers fail to work effectively with ranged. Now to combat this lack of decent crowd control options one would think they would be the ranged damage dealers able to sustain damage like a melee can, possibly less due to their range and ability to use some minor crowd control, but this falls flat from being implemented properly.



As a side note: I believe I have accidentally double the occurance of lightning strikes in my dps calcs, i will double check when redoing to include rams and racials.

[Xyfiel]

If you really want to be depressed, run the numbers on a lit II repeater with 129 shots/minute. Remember that each time you add damage, the repeater gap gets further ahead.

[Seliana]

The thing about casters is they might not put out the largest dps/second, but they have utility such as instakills, crowd control, fogs, different elemental damage spells to take advantage of enemy weaknesses, spells that can get around enemies such as web or disintegrate vs golems, irresistible dance, they can debuff enemies via energy drain and can even contribute some nice dps with persistent aoe spells such as firewall. When the Sh*t hits the fan they can also pour out damage much faster than a melee can, with spell crits going up into the two thousands and normals being around the same as a normal barbarians critical hit.

True enough Sorcerer's do have the means to bypass monster defenses. Arcane casters get a spell selection which is similar to how MinII bypasses most things with damage reduction.

However, casters at endgame do not have crowd control, meaningful debuffs, fogs, or instakills. We face blanket spell immunities(Insta kills, Crowd control, Some debuffs), unattainably high spell saves to bypass(vs all spells in general), spells simply not working at all or as described(Fogs, some damage spells), Red-named creatures being immune to everything except damage(These are a large percentage of creatures in the endgame raids), and Elemental immunities and resistances(Everything has these), and very limited spell pools for dealing damage with.

Arcane casters are often labeled by the melee community as "Buff Bot" and that is because it is usually the only sustained role we get to play at high levels. This wouldn't be so bad if we had rolled up a Bard which was designed for that role. But we rolled a Sorcerer so we could kill things with magic. Sure we can crit occasionally for massive damage with one spell about 18% of our attacks assuming we specialized and geared for that, But due to spellcasting speed and spell timers vs melee swing speed this is only ends up being about 1/5th as often.

Yeah ranged damage is pitiful and needs fixing too admittedly, but if there wasn't a problem with spell damage then players wouldn't be rolling up Wizards and Sorcerers built for melee.

[sirdanile]

True enough Sorcerer's do have the means to bypass monster defenses. Arcane casters get a spell selection which is similar to how MinII bypasses most things with damage reduction.

However, casters at endgame do not have crowd control, meaningful debuffs, fogs, or instakills. We face blanket spell immunities(Insta kills, Crowd control, Some debuffs), unattainably high spell saves to bypass(vs all spells in general), spells simply not working at all or as described(Fogs, some damage spells), Red-named creatures being immune to everything except damage(These are a large percentage of creatures in the endgame raids), and Elemental immunities and resistances(Everything has these), and very limited spell pools for dealing damage with.


Instakills still work fairly well at end game, not 100% but more like 30% on enemies that don't have deathward. Crowd control consists of web + waves of exhaustion which works in epics, mass charm which works even on shavarath though not quite as well on elite, ottos irresistable works on everything not immune to mind control spells such as undead or golems and ottos dancing sphere gives that a persistant aoe effect which can make an enemy attempt to save multiple times, the debuffs synchronize with this making crowd control pretty effective and a good idea. Granted blanket immunities are not fun nor are broken spells, but everyone avoids the broken spells and blanket immunities apply to everyone, you can't wail that guy but the melee can't vorpal it either. red-names get immunities to make them last, some debuffs still affect them and only purple names become immune to anything but damage. The thing about elemental resistances/immunities is that they both make sense and can be bypassed by using other spells, of course you won't fireball the fire elemental. Spell pools are in no way extremely limited with the ability to obtain the torc of prince raiyum de II and crafting a concordant opposition item you turn your enemies into a battery.

Overall casters arnt as effective at endgame as they used to be, but they are a contributing member of any party and certainly useful for more than just displacement rage and haste.

[Creeper]

DDO = Melee/Spell D&D Online? No this is DDO = Melee D&D Online. Show me this Sorcerer doing 450 damage per second sustained during every fight for an entire quest or raid. Maybe when Turbine gives Caster's massive spell point regeneration when attacking this equality might happen. If Turbine turns on the Reaver's Fate charge (+120 SP) for all Sorcerers while they are casting damage spells this might happen. Both ranged and casters need an overhaul of the currently intentionally destroyed system.

Oh...but then they wouldn't be making so much money off of us in the Turbine store. Heaven forbid they lose artificially created profits and balance our classes.

I will say one thing and leave it at that so it doesn't derail the thread:

Do a search for thread title: "Solo Epic"
Count how many casters are soloing epic content. Then count the arcane archers that are soloing epic content.

If you do not believe that a Sorcerer can do 450 points of damage a second during every fight you do not understand AOE spells.

Ok, that's all i'll say ;)

[Glenalth]

If they ever do an Epic Silverbow, even if it just gets 2d10+6 base damage, it can start out-shooting Lit II in good conditions (favored enemy, high str, etc). Socket in +7 since arrows are plentiful, though glass would be interesting if Quori become more common.

Any other mods like Holy Burst or bumping up the multiplier or range and it will be glorious. It will probably end up with some sort of Vampire slaying **** though.

[FengXian]

I prolly just missed it, but I cant see the dps for pos-air-airpos lightning strike II with kensei III.

Anyway it's really ok that melee has superior dps compared to ranged, otherwise ranged would be way overpowered...also consider that these are just math formulas, there are many other aspects that can influence the damage output of a ranged toon...to have the real DPS output, you would have consider just the time toons spend fighting inside a quest, so many shot would actually be active for a higher percentage of time; also, I often manage to hit at least 2 mobs with each arrow, precise shot feat makes u deal double/triple damage or more. And you can hit a mob from afar before a melee can reach it, you dont have to run after annoying mobs like spiders or bats etc etc...

I have to say I never played epic nor elite high level content yet, but so far I'm happy with the damage I'm dealing...when I manyshot bosses like harry I can actually see their life bar going down faster and that's good enough for me XD I'm also getting many kills even in so called "melee" quests like rainbow, I'm often top killer in Tor and I got 200+ kills in chamber with a full party while the second best killer didnt reach 100 (using either silver bow or T2 pos-air, I dont remember...so my gear is kinda poor and I dont even have the capstone yet)

What I mean is that the difference between melee and ranged DPS may not be as huge as it appears to be in the topic linked on page 1

[sirdanile]

I prolly just missed it, but I cant see the dps for pos-air-airpos lightning strike II with kensei III.

Anyway it's really ok that melee has superior dps compared to ranged, otherwise ranged would be way overpowered...also consider that these are just math formulas, there are many other aspects that can influence the damage output of a ranged toon...to have the real DPS output, you would have consider just the time toons spend fighting inside a quest, so many shot would actually be active for a higher percentage of time; also, I often manage to hit at least 2 mobs with each arrow, precise shot feat makes u deal double/triple damage or more. And you can hit a mob from afar before a melee can reach it, you dont have to run after annoying mobs like spiders or bats etc etc...

I have to say I never played epic nor elite high level content yet, but so far I'm happy with the damage I'm dealing...when I manyshot bosses like harry I can actually see their life bar going down faster and that's good enough for me XD I'm also getting many kills even in so called "melee" quests like rainbow, I'm often top killer in Tor and I got 200+ kills in chamber with a full party while the second best killer didnt reach 100 (using either silver bow or T2 pos-air, I dont remember...so my gear is kinda poor and I dont even have the capstone yet)

What I mean is that the difference between melee and ranged DPS may not be as huge as it appears to be in the topic linked on page 1

You did not miss the dps calcs for a kensai III because they are not in here, all of the dps calcs are using my ranger, I believe when I quit doing this that I was trying to figure out exactly how much extra damage kensai III adds.

Posting here again because the epic thornlord has been upgraded (and potentially the epic bow of elements(air) as well)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3075513&postcount=103

While the servers are down I need to gather all my data and redo some calcs.

[Ardenburl]

Lets start with, I love my ranged ranger with a lighting strike bow, and slayer arrows with +5 summoned arrows, and 4000 silver/cold iron/and the other one I can't think of. (danburl of thelenis)

Now that I have said that here is the sad truth, 1 out of 100 ranged rangers are good at playing ranged rangers in raids/epic content. It as important to know when not to shoot as to know when to shoot.

Ranged players can drive your healers insane because the mass heals aren't hitting them.

They drive melee's insane because you have 8-9 melee's stacked on top of others doing massive dps to the targets in front of them, if you are kiting mobs around most likely you are lowering the overall dps of your party.

Many ranged toons don't have the hit points to handle the agro they draw if they can't kite, some of that can be over come with gear, earth grab guards, melodic guards ect...

And of course sometimes the ranged toon aggro s a entire area by shooting the target the farthest away from the group.

Being a good ranged toon is about gear and play style, targeting the caster/clerics first, attacking the mobs that the tanks already have aggro on, have good beaters when ranged isn't appropriate, having 450ish to 500 hps so your not getting one shot.

You get the point.

Arden

[sirdanile]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3060434&postcount=73 (Hover over the link itll give you the stats as they are right now)

Because I throw favored enemy into these calculation I shall run the numbers including the bane.


Epic Shatterbow: (1d8 + 1d6 + 10 + 3d6 + 14 + 11 + 3 + 2) + 19-20/x3 (NEEDS UPDATED - CURRENT BOW)

4.5 + 3.5 + 10 + 10.5 + 14 + 11 + 3 + 2 = 58.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead
(0*1/20) + (58.5*17/20) + (175.5*2/20) + 25 + 1.2
0 + 49.725 + 17.55 + 25 + 1.2 = 93.475 Damage Per Shot

67*93.475 = 6262.825 / 60 = 104.380417 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

93.475*4 = 373.9 * 1/6 = 62.317 additional Damage Per Shot
93.475 + 62.317 = 155.792 Damage Per Shot
67*155.792 = 10438.064 / 60 = 173.96773 Damage Per Second

As is This is a worse construct killer than the other bows due to its low base damage, lack of a useful proc (such as disintegrate) and it lacks the ability to bypass construct dr. The upside is that it has improved destruction, which can be very useful debuff to apply at range.

[sirdanile]

Lets start with, I love my ranged ranger with a lighting strike bow, and slayer arrows with +5 summoned arrows, and 4000 silver/cold iron/and the other one I can't think of. (danburl of thelenis)

Now that I have said that here is the sad truth, 1 out of 100 ranged rangers are good at playing ranged rangers in raids/epic content. It as important to know when not to shoot as to know when to shoot.

Ranged players can drive your healers insane because the mass heals aren't hitting them.

They drive melee's insane because you have 8-9 melee's stacked on top of others doing massive dps to the targets in front of them, if you are kiting mobs around most likely you are lowering the overall dps of your party.

Many ranged toons don't have the hit points to handle the agro they draw if they can't kite, some of that can be over come with gear, earth grab guards, melodic guards ect...

And of course sometimes the ranged toon aggro s a entire area by shooting the target the farthest away from the group.

Being a good ranged toon is about gear and play style, targeting the caster/clerics first, attacking the mobs that the tanks already have aggro on, have good beaters when ranged isn't appropriate, having 450ish to 500 hps so your not getting one shot.

You get the point.

Arden

Being a good player is a factor in every single build one will ever play, if you're a good Archer odds are you could be a good spellcaster or a good melee as well. The part I am pointing out is that even with everything Superior ranged combat does not come close to even a crappily played and geared melee damage wise.

[krud]

RRRAARGHH! Your numbers are all wrong! My e-pen inflated dps numbers are bigger! You forgot to include the double-overhead-cam-fuel-injected rear view mirror, and the all important turbo-charged-glove compartment. Plus, there is no kitchen sink, toilet bowl brush, or shower cap clickie in those calculations! I can't believe your numbers are correct until every single obscure buff is included to make those numbers look really, really uber!



seriously, nice work.

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that one can still field decent dps (for ranged combat that is) with a good old ml6 silver bow.

[sirdanile]

RRRAARGHH! Your numbers are all wrong! My e-pen inflated dps numbers are bigger! You forgot to include the double-overhead-cam-fuel-injected rear view mirror, and the all important turbo-charged-glove compartment. Plus, there is no kitchen sink, toilet bowl brush, or shower cap clickie in those calculations! I can't believe your numbers are correct until every single obscure buff is included to make those numbers look really, really uber!



seriously, nice work.

I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that one can still field decent dps (for ranged combat that is) with a good old ml6 silver bow.

Hehe, As mentioned in previous posts I generally only included damage buffs that I personally have or would grind for, to truely max the dps I would have to include the two tod sets, true reincarnate 10 times, max strength with every available buff including scourge choker and madstone... etc...

Yeah it does kind of trouble me that an ml 6 bow surpasses almost anything else in the game minus crafted and epic bows.

[aldan]

/prepares to duck the stampede of melee min maxer lynch mobs the minute the OP reveals that ranged is actually only 4 or 5 damage less than a halfling barbarian TWFing clubs of the holy flames while unhasted and slowed by trog stink poison.

Almost puked I laughed so hard.

[maddmatt70]

This is no joke not kidding totally serious. The most dps in ddo for a non spell caster in mod 5 is a ranged ranger and it really is not even close. Will this change for sure. Your math is incorrect by the way OP at least according to mod 5 rules. It is fun saying ranged ranger is the most dps even if it will not last haha..

[sirdanile]

Thornlord vs. Pos air air lightning II

Thornlord

.75*(9+8+4+x+y)+.20*(3*(9+8+4+x+y+z))

or 28.35+1.35*x+1.35*y+.60*z

Lit II

.85*(5.5+5+x+y+7+3.5)+.10*(3*(5.5+x+y+z)+7+3.5+11+ 11)+0.05(14)

or 23.450 + 1.15 x + 1.15 y + 0.30 z

+~15 damage per hit off lightning strike.

x=str mod
y=addtnl damage mod
z=seeker bonus

Using My AA stats

x=12 (34 Str)
y=14 favored +2 ranger tr +2 shintao set+2 Good hope clickie=20 (elfs would actually get 2 more here)
z=6

Thornlord = 75.15 avg damage per shot
Lit II= 62.05+~15 average damage per shot

So pretty close here but Lit II is ahead by just under 2 points per hit
Add +7 additional for bard songs to y (9 warchanter-2good hope)

Thornlord 84.6
Lit II 70.1+~15

So yes here we are looking at lightning II being not even 1 point of damage per hit ahead but thornlord doesn't rely on an erratic 2.5% chance to proc a large hit and is more consistent with it's damage output. Also the damage range of thornlord is tighter meaning while lightning two has a larger highest hit possibility the thornlord will be more consistant at hitting the average versus falling under over the course of a quest/fight. Thornlord can beat the dr of anything the Lit II can and doesn't have anything resistant to parts of it's damage. Plus it gives +3 more to attack meaning any mob you don't hit on a 2 or better with the Lit II, Thornlord pulls way ahead. So in the right circumstance the Lit II is better but overall the Thornlord is a higher dps bow. Now granted if running elite shroud/vod/tod I'd use the Lit II due to fort issues but other than that I really don't even pull it out anymore.

Lelorics Math behind the Epic Thornlord / Lit II comparison, reposted from my other thread, Personally it looks like he is not incorporating manyshot which will bring the lit II further ahead, he also takes advantage of bard songs and true reincarnation and tod sets which do favor the thornlord.


This is no joke not kidding totally serious. The most dps in ddo for a non spell caster in mod 5 is a ranged ranger and it really is not even close. Will this change for sure. Your math is incorrect by the way OP at least according to mod 5 rules. It is fun saying ranged ranger is the most dps even if it will not last haha..

1. If my math is incorrect please point out exactly how.
2. In the final dps number I give the "over time" dps scenario where manyshot is up 1/6 of the time, You can refer to the burst dps number should you choose or refer to the non manyshot dps which is why I added manyshot in as a second breakdown.
3. Most dps? The twf/thf nerf wasn't THAT bad as to bring it down to the level of ranged combat, it just brought the melee numbers down a bit.

[LeLoric]

Lelorics Math behind the Epic Thornlord / Lit II comparison, reposted from my other thread, Personally it looks like he is not incorporating manyshot which will bring the lit II further ahead, he also takes advantage of bard songs and true reincarnation and tod sets which do favor the thornlord.


Many shot has no releveance in a damage per attack comparison which is the only way to truly compare two weapons with the same attack rate all the other info is irrelevant.

Your manyshot calculations are off anyways you should be just factoring each one in as an extra shot in your shots per minute otherwise you don't account for chance to miss or crit for each shot.

If your many shot free attack rate is 67 shots per second and manyshot can be active for 1/6 of the time adding 3 additional arrows to those attacks that occur in that time frame. That accounts to an extra 33.5 additional attacks per minute for a total average of 100.5 attacks per minute or 1.675 shots per second. Now multiply that by your damage per shot and you get your dps calculation.

For my above calculations that is


Self Buffed

Lit II=129.05875 dps
Thornlord=125.87625 dps

Bard Buffed

Lit II=142.5425 dps
Thornlord=141.7050 dps

Before you get discouraged by the actual numbers remember this is before any sneak attack/slayer arrows/any other damage that applies to both bows so lots of actual dps is left out. This is just a comparison between the things that are different between the two bows.

This uses my current AA stats and due to the difference in crit range on the bows things like seeker bonus str mod and additional damage mod are variables that yield different results. If you look at my previous post that was quoted above you will see an easy equation where you can plug in those three variables and get your own results for what you are looking at on your specific character. For a kensai the big change is make sure to add up all your additional bonus's for y as well as seeker damage from enhancement to z and adjust the inital multiplier down .05 and the second multiplier in the equation up by .05.

Once again as I stated in the above post quoted by the op is that Thornlord is behind Lit II on things that have no resistance to Holy or lightning and you always hit on a 2 or better which is great if you are only running shroud/vod/tod but step outside of those into epic quests and at least 90% of the time the Thornlord is higher dps. So in otherwords if you don't plan on running epic quests then don't worry about getting a thornlord your current bow is fine but if you wanna run epic you should try for one of these and use your lit II or other bow while trying to get the parts for this.

Also the reliance on spike damage from the light II will tend to fluctuate your actual dps away from the norm more often than the thornlord will and also create more wasted damage or damage that was not needed to kill a mob.

[Cyr]

While I would do that calculation I still stand by the fact that crit rage no longer exists, if another barb pre comes out that allows for crit range multipliers I will certainly do calculations for it. (heres lookin' at you ravager...)


I know a few people who still have barbs with crit rage as if you had it prior to it being removed you kept it until you reset your enhancments.

[LeLoric]

This is no joke not kidding totally serious. The most dps in ddo for a non spell caster in mod 5 is a ranged ranger and it really is not even close. Will this change for sure. Your math is incorrect by the way OP at least according to mod 5 rules. It is fun saying ranged ranger is the most dps even if it will not last haha..

He is referencing a bug which does allow ranged dps to surpass melee dps.

[sirdanile]

He is referencing a bug which does allow ranged dps to surpass melee dps.

Oh that one bug where is you press the...it resets the timer... Yeah no :P

Also you might be right with the fact that I am not accounting for manyshots chance to crit, i'll double check tomorrow when i'm less tired/more sober/less pyro...yay holidays!


I know a few people who still have barbs with crit rage as if you had it prior to it being removed you kept it until you reset your enhancments.

You would have had a crit rage II bow specced Elven barbarian and planned your feats/levels out to take Arcane Archer I. If you know of any character that has done this send them my sincerest gratitude and character name so I may bow down to their awesomeness. Otherwise take your rapier specced barbs away please, I will not do calculations for something no character can do without being extremely lucky with a grandfather clause and staying dedicated to ranging through years without taking enhancements past The original force imbue.... as I also mentioned I am waiting for the ravager to come out! :D

[LeLoric]

Also you might be right with the fact that I am not accounting for manyshots chance to crit, i'll double check tomorrow when i'm less tired/more sober/less pyro...yay holidays!


I reviewed it and it's not the many shot chance to crit that wasn't factored in but you are counting a total of 5 arrows for each attack while in many shot.

By multiplying your dps by 4 and then adding it back in to the original you are counting the first arrow twice better to just calculate your total average number of arrows per minute with manyshot and multiply by the average damage per arrow as I did above.

So 67 attacks per minute but multishot adds three more arrows that wouldn't have been fired normally on 1/6 of your total shots on average. So 67*3/6=33.5 extra shots per minute for multishot on average added to the original 67 is a total of 100.5 shots per minute on average. So 100.5x avg dmg per shot/60= 1.675*avg dmg per shot=dps.


Using your damge per shot numbers that's:

Thornlord 1.675*96.25=161.21875 dps
Lit II 1.675*97.625=163.521875 dps

Pretty similar to my self buffed numbers if you take away the Slaying arrows additional damge which is not included in my calculations.

Although using multishot like this for calculations can be a little misleading as many fights don't even last a total of 2 minutes and many times you can time in between fights to actually have it up more than 1/6 of your combat time. Once again to better compare the bows it's best just to look at an average damage per shot because attack rates will be the same between the two.

What would be a good study since the +5's don't really add anything with either bow except for returning is to calculate some data on number of arrows fired during quests using solely non-returners to see about how many arrows are fired per minute of quest time on average and then you could multiply that out by damage per shot to get an idea of damage difference per minute of actual questing. Due to the nature of arrow usage this is much more easily acquired information than melees could gather.

[Lifespawn]

Oh that one bug where is you press the...it resets the timer... Yeah no :P

Also you might be right with the fact that I am not accounting for manyshots chance to crit, i'll double check tomorrow when i'm less tired/more sober/less pyro...yay holidays!



You would have had a crit rage II bow specced Elven barbarian and planned your feats/levels out to take Arcane Archer I. If you know of any character that has done this send them my sincerest gratitude and character name so I may bow down to their awesomeness. Otherwise take your rapier specced barbs away please, I will not do calculations for something no character can do without being extremely lucky with a grandfather clause and staying dedicated to ranging through years without taking enhancements past The original force imbue.... as I also mentioned I am waiting for the ravager to come out! :D



Thanks for your gratitude my bowbarrian is a crit rage 2 elven bowbarian will full arcane archer i saved up my ap's and leveled from 16 -20 with bare minimum things taken i think i had 28 ap when i hit 20.

Also specced in heavy repeaters :)

Gotanka on sarlona.

[Aesop]

Almost puked I laughed so hard.

yeah but he was wrong... he said twf... he meant Sword and Board with a Club of the Holy Flame while while unhasted and slowed by trog stink poison on a finessed based Halfling Barbarian unraged 28pt build after being hit by a ray of enfeeblement and exhausted


edit: whoops forgot to mention... nice job hashing that all out.

If only they'd bump the RoA up a bit
add in an increases Single Target DPS option similar to Power Attack
throw a Tactical Feat to Archers

we may have a decent combat style

Aesop

[sirdanile]

Thanks for your gratitude my bowbarrian is a crit rage 2 elven bowbarian will full arcane archer i saved up my ap's and leveled from 16 -20 with bare minimum things taken i think i had 28 ap when i hit 20.

Also specced in heavy repeaters :)

Gotanka on sarlona.

I bow down to your dedication and awesomeness, PM me all the relevent information and two bows you want me to run the dps calcs with and I will post them here!

[sirdanile]

I reviewed it and it's not the many shot chance to crit that wasn't factored in but you are counting a total of 5 arrows for each attack while in many shot.

By multiplying your dps by 4 and then adding it back in to the original you are counting the first arrow twice better to just calculate your total average number of arrows per minute with manyshot and multiply by the average damage per arrow as I did above.

So 67 attacks per minute but multishot adds three more arrows that wouldn't have been fired normally on 1/6 of your total shots on average. So 67*3/6=33.5 extra shots per minute for multishot on average added to the original 67 is a total of 100.5 shots per minute on average. So 100.5x avg dmg per shot/60= 1.675*avg dmg per shot=dps.


I don't believe I am counting the first arrow twice.

Simple Example:


1*4 = 4
1 + 3 = 4
2*4 = 8
2 + 6 = 8


Manyshot is in essence quadrupling your damage while it is up by adding 3 more arrows, you get the same amount of "arrows" shot if you add 67*3 to the original 67 arrows shot per minute as you do just multiplying the arrows by 4.

Aside from that your method will get the same results, figuring out how many arrows per minute you do wind up fireing will get the same result as messing with the damage like I did.

So the actual number to use for your method weould be 67*4 = 268/6 = 44.67 additional arrows. 67 + 44.67 = 111.67 arrows shot on average. Instead of calculating the damage gained from manyshot I could have instead used this number which is the shot increase from manyshot, I would probably come out with very similar numbers... let me test that out.



9 + 42 = 51
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead
(0*1/20) + (51*15/20) + (153 * 4/20) + 25 + 2.4
0 + 38.25 + 30.6 + 25 + 2.4 = 96.25 Damage Per Shot

67*96.25 = 6448.75 / 60 = 107.47917 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

96.25*4 = * 1/6 = 64.17 additional Damage Per Shot
96.25 + 64.17 = 160.42 Damage Per Shot
67*160.42 = 10748.14 / 60 = 179.1357 Damage Per Second


Instead of doing that second Manyshot category I can just instead head back to the first number 96.25 and multiply it by 111.67 then divide it by 60.

111.67*96.25 = 10748.2375 / 60 = 179.1372917 DPS, which is only very slightly off my previous numbers.

[LeLoric]

Ok let me try to explain it better.

You are counting 67 shots per minute.

When you multiply by 4 you are counting 4 new arrows then dividing by 6.

Then you add it back to the original 67 shots per minute total which already would include the first arrow shot in a multi shot and causing you to count 5 shots instead of 4

Many shot is only giving you an extra 3 shots as the first shot would have been shot anyways if manyshot wasnt up. This is where your error comes in. Manyshot doesn't increase your damage per shot it just increases your attack rate providing you more shots over a set period of time.

[sirdanile]

Ok let me try to explain it better.

You are counting 67 shots per minute.

When you multiply by 4 you are counting 4 new arrows then dividing by 6.

Then you add it back to the original 67 shots per minute total which already would include the first arrow shot in a multi shot and causing you to count 5 shots instead of 4

Many shot is only giving you an extra 3 shots as the first shot would have been shot anyways if manyshot wasnt up. This is where your error comes in. Manyshot doesn't increase your damage per shot it just increases your attack rate providing you more shots over a set period of time.

I see what you're trying to get at but I am only counting 3 new arrows, the thing is that I multiply my damage instead of my attack rate which is confusing you.

You see in a single minute without manyshot you will fire 67 times. With manyshot you will still fire 67 times but you will have multiple arrows for 1/6 of the time, you can view that as either an increase in damage over those 67 shots or an increase in shots during that 60 seconds, either works.

Unless I am missing something obvious going back over my calculations would you mind quoting the part in my math where I add a fifth arrow Leloric?

*edit* Actually I think I see it... gonna edit in a sec.

*edit2* Ok WHen I use the 96.25 number that is a single shots worth of damage, I don't use the calculated X*67/60 number, in which case you would be correct.

[LeLoric]

Adding in Manyshot:

96.25*4 = * 1/6 = 64.17 additional Damage Per Shot
96.25 + 64.17 = 160.42 Damage Per Shot
67*160.42 = 10748.14 / 60 = 179.1357 Damage Per Second

Not sure how to explain this better to you.

96.25 is your average damage per shot.
When you multiply that by 4 you are taking the average damage of 4 arrows and calling that your additional damage per shot whereas it is your total damage for that shot(your additional damage per shot is only 3 arrows the original arrow is already counted). So when you add that back in to your regular damage it is factoring in an extra arrow.

Maybe this will help. Your calculation can be broken down as follows. 96.25+96.25*4/6= 5/6*96.25+1/6*96.25+1/6*96.25*4. The 5/6*96.25 is your damage when not in manyshot multiplied by 5/6 which is the ratio of time you are not in manyshot. If you now take the last two which is what you are calculating for manyshot damage you get 1/6*96.25+1/6*96.25*4 which is equal to (96.25*1+96.25*4)/6. If you factor out the 96.25 you get 1/6*96.25(1+4) so 5 times your arrow damage not the correct 4 times during manyshot.

The easier calculation here is to calculate the manyshot increase in number of arrows and add that to your original number of arrows and then multiply by your damage per shot as manyshot is not an increase in damage per shot rather than an increase in rate of fire.

Another way to look at it is:

5/6 of the time you are getting 67 shots per minute and 1/6 of the time you are getting 67*4 shots per minute. So 5/6*67+1/6*67*4=100.5. What you are doing is in effect taking 6/6*67+1/6*67*4=111.666... But you are factoring in 7/6 total time not 6/6.

[LeLoric]

Air-Pos-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow (1d10 + 5 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2) + (Burst/Blasts) 19-20/x3 + Lightning Strike (UPDATED)

5.5 + 5 + 3.5 + 3.5 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2 = 47.5
Misses + Normal Hits + Critical Hits + Slayer Arrows + Arrowhead + Bursts/blasts + Lightning Strike
(0 * 1/20) + (47.5 * 17/20) + (142.5 * 2/20) + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15
0 + 40.375 + 14.25 + 25 + 1.2 + 1.8 + 15 = 97.625 Damage Per Shot

67*97.625 = 6540.875 / 60 = 109.014583 Damage Per Second

Adding in Manyshot:

97.625*4 = 390.5 * 1/6 = 65.083 additional Damage Per Shot
97.625 + 65.083 = 162.708 Damage Per Shot
67*162.708 = 10901.436 / 60 = 181.6906 Damage Per Second

After looking over your numbers saw another error in your calculations for crits.

When you add up your damage to 47.5 that is including good damage as well as lightning damage then on a crit you are multiplying this entire number by 3. This causes the lightning and good to be factored in 3 times on 10% of your shots. The better way to do your original damage is to take (5.5+5+11+14+3+2)+3.5+3.5. Then on your crits multiply just what is in parenthesis instead of the entire number. This error leads to some of your inflated numbers on weapons with additional non-base damage effects versus those with only base damage effects.

In general when I am working out an average damage per attack for a weapon I do as follows.

(1-crit%-Miss%)(Base dmg of weapon+weapon enhancement+str modifier+addtnl non-base dmg effects)
+ crit%(Crit Multiplier(base damage + enhancement + str modifier + addtnl base damge effects+seeker)+Addtnl non-base damage effects+ additional non-base damage crit effects)

[sirdanile]

When you add up your damage to 47.5 that is including good damage as well as lightning damage then on a crit you are multiplying this entire number by 3. This causes the lightning and good to be factored in 3 times on 10% of your shots. The better way to do your original damage is to take (5.5+5+11+14+3+2)+3.5+3.5. Then on your crits multiply just what is in parenthesis instead of the entire number. This error leads to some of your inflated numbers on weapons with additional non-base damage effects versus those with only base damage effects.


Thanks, I See where I am wrong, I am adding things like holy and pure good on before getting my crit number.

I also now see the manyshot error, i'll revise all the numbers sometime this week.

[LeLoric]

Thanks, I See where I am wrong, I am adding things like holy and pure good on before getting my crit number.

I also now see the manyshot error, i'll revise all the numbers sometime this week.

Glad I could help not trying to be nitpicky but yeah I guess I am lol. Working on your masters in mathematics does that lol.

[grodon9999]

If only they'd bump the RoA up a bit
add in an increases Single Target DPS option similar to Power Attack
throw a Tactical Feat to Archers

we may have a decent combat style

Aesop

That or just not fix a bug . . .

[sirdanile]

Updated Epic Thornlord - Please let me know if that is inaccurate otherwise I will potentially cause errors on the other bows tomorrow.


try a crit rage bowbarian 14 barb 6 ranger with the silver bow and raged 54 str arcane archer.


Deal, i'll run the calc after I update the rest of my bows tomorrow... do you want to tell me any gear or should I use whatevers on Myddo when I go to look it up?

[Aesop]

Hey Sird these numbers are neat and all... but could you toss in a couple of relative comparisons...


nothing too fancy...

maybe a Tempest Ranger with Khopesh and one for rapiers. (perhaps since Battle Axe is the same base damage and crit as a Bow that one too)

Mineral 2 would be fine and dandy

I like seeing the comparison of bow to bow but what does that mean for Ranged vs Melee.


If a Bow does 160 DPS that sounds bad arsed... but if a corresponding Melee does 300 DPS... then it saddens me ;)

Aesop

[sirdanile]

Hey Sird these numbers are neat and all... but could you toss in a couple of relative comparisons...


nothing too fancy...

maybe a Tempest Ranger with Khopesh and one for rapiers. (perhaps since Battle Axe is the same base damage and crit as a Bow that one too)

Mineral 2 would be fine and dandy

I like seeing the comparison of bow to bow but what does that mean for Ranged vs Melee.


If a Bow does 160 DPS that sounds bad arsed... but if a corresponding Melee does 300 DPS... then it saddens me ;)

Aesop

Sure i'll throw in a tempest Rapier/Khopesh wielding Min II Comparison when I have time... right now i'm updating the bows AGAIN. :D

Also look forward to Lifespawns Crit Rage 2 AA numbers for a silver bow and triple pos bow.

And also after I figure out the total bonus for a kensai III ranger i'll throw those numbers in here as well.

Man i'm gonna be busy...

[sirdanile]

Pos-Air-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow (1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 1d6 + 11 + 14 + 3 + 2) + (Burst/Blasts) 19-20/x3 + Lightning Strike

Adding in Manyshot:

100.075 * 4 = 400.3 * 1/6 = 66.7167
100.075 * 5/6 = 83.39583
83.39583 + 66.7167 = 150.11253 Damage Per Shot
67 * 150.11253 = 10057.53951 / 60 = 167.6256585 Damage Per Second

You would use THIS number should you be using the *ahem* bug... the monster Pre update 5 did well over 600 dps...unsure what it deals currently but certainly still extremely high.