Arcane Archer: Too Broken?

[Arcticwarrior]

look I am a frequent player in pvp and I play barb and caster (20/17). They cannot kill a simple lvl 18 arcane archer because slayer keeps proc'ing. Please devs remove this curse! I understand other arcane archer imbues but seriously. Now that they have slayer in pvp its like they rule it.

[Visty]

no

nothing should get changed because of pvp

if you die to them, then change your way of killing them

well, maybe if they remove all spellcasting and disallow weapons, then
but as it is atm: no

[rjedi]

No, if you can't handle it roll up a toon who can destroy them

Trust me I love the brawl.... but when I die I see what killed me and how I should fix that not go complaining to someone else about a decesion to jump in a deadly pit

If you want pvp and don't like the ddo version be my guest go play a different game. No reason we should change the pve to please such a small minority

[Crazyfruit]

Did you try having your caster cast dispel?

[xanvar]

Well I have to say this the first time I have seen a nerf ranged combat thread. Almost want to give +1 rep for that.

[sly_1]

deathward

[Visty]

deathward

doesnt work as there is no death effect

[Jacaroma]

Now that they have slayer in pvp its like they rule it.
It seems to me that i DO rule the pit now :)

[Nevthial]

No, if you can't handle it roll up a toon who can destroy them

Trust me I love the brawl.... but when I die I see what killed me and how I should fix that not go complaining to someone else about a decesion to jump in a deadly pit

If you want pvp and don't like the ddo version be my guest go play a different game. No reason we should change the pve to please such a small minority

Yes

( And NO to the OP) LOL

[Memnir]

No.

[Jacaroma]

"They cannot kill a simple lvl 18 arcane archer"

Sorry bud, it's not a "SIMPLE" arcane archer, Ranged rangers are a tough build to play as. Even harder to beat i suppose. The reason why "this" Arcane Archer beats you is because he plays his roll well. YOU DON'T MELEE WITH A RANGER IN PVP! Simple as that.

[r3dl4nce]

just don't step in the pvp area.

Dev, I have a better suggestion than the Op. TOTALLY remove pvp from game. No more cry-babies!

[Jakarr]

pvp......

:rolleyes:

[Jacaroma]

just don't step in the pvp area.


That is if you can't handle yourself.

[rjedi]

just don't step in the pvp area.
this


Dev, I have a better suggestion than the Op. TOTALLY remove pvp from game. No more cry-babies!

no

[Deathseeker]

The change does not have to be to AA in PvE to address the issue the Op raised in PvP.

Just as people do not want classes/abilities changed due to PvP (which is a minority of play in DDO), we should also not ask that PvP issues not be addressed if they have no effect on PvE play. The devs can adjust this in a way that has no bearing other than PvP (like giving players a saving throw vs slayer or simply make it not apply in PvP).

Im not suggesting it needs changing or not, but to simply react that the Op's request is invalid on its face simply because it is a PvP request is just not cool. If it can be changed so it only affects PvP and has no bearing on PvE, then there should be no problem.

[Visty]

The change does not have to be to AA in PvE to address the issue the Op raised in PvP.

Just as people do not want classes/abilities changed due to PvP (which is a minority of play in DDO), we should also not ask that PvP issues not be addressed if they have no effect on PvE play. The devs can adjust this in a way that has no bearing other than PvP (like giving players a saving throw vs slayer or simply make it not apply in PvP).

Im not suggesting it needs changing or not, but to simply react that the Op's request is invalid on its face simply because it is a PvP request is just not cool. If it can be changed so it only affects PvP and has no bearing on PvE, then there should be no problem.

do you really think its that easily to disable an enhancement line in pvp?

[Jacaroma]

The fact of the matter is: ALL games that have PVP WILL have people who have problems with it, not everyone can be satisifed. Either don't complain about PVP, or don't go into PVP, simple way to solve the little problems.

[Redcoil]

I find it funny there's complaints of a lv 18 ranger with AP's and feats sunk into it while a monk half the level can guarantee that damage every 15 seconds while a ranger has to get lucky :-)

[Jacaroma]

Some call it luck, some prefer to call it skill (:

[sirdanile]

I find it funny there's complaints of a lv 18 ranger with AP's and feats sunk into it while a monk half the level can guarantee that damage every 15 seconds while a ranger has to get lucky :-)

that monk has a very small attack range though, they don't get close enough even with high speed and evasion to pull it off generally, especially against a manyshot Slayer arrow AA.

though I must admit halfling D marked monks with high ac are probably the most annoying class to kite and kill, if i'm only hitting on a 6+ instead of any roll except 1 then it's noticeable, manyshot I use for taking out the caster who I know has power word and ottos or that pesky leviks defender shielded cleric/fvs.

don't forget stat damage as well as a weapon for and against an AA

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The change does not have to be to AA in PvE to address the issue the Op raised in PvP.

Just as people do not want classes/abilities changed due to PvP (which is a minority of play in DDO), we should also not ask that PvP issues not be addressed if they have no effect on PvE play. The devs can adjust this in a way that has no bearing other than PvP (like giving players a saving throw vs slayer or simply make it not apply in PvP).

Im not suggesting it needs changing or not, but to simply react that the Op's request is invalid on its face simply because it is a PvP request is just not cool. If it can be changed so it only affects PvP and has no bearing on PvE, then there should be no problem.

That impacts the PvE in two ways...
1) Takes dev time to do and test
2) Adds a complexity of coding which may risk breaking things outside of PvP - every 'if then' you add hits everywhere in the game.

[Calebro]

I'll /sign this on a few conditions. Make the following changes as well:

1) Rogues don't get sneak attack in PvP
2) Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and Favored Souls can't cast spells in PvP
3) Barbarians aren't allowed to Rage in PvP
4) Paladins aren't allowed to Smite in PvP
5) Fighters lose access to their bonus feats in PvP
6) Monks unarmed attack speed drops to equal a Fighter or equal level in PvP

If the following changes are made, then I'll /sign this idea. Otherwise, no.
This is basically the equivalent of what you're asking.

[Aashrym]

no

nothing should get changed because of pvp



I agree with this statement 100%. No changes to because of PvP.

[Arcticwarrior]

it Seems To Me That I Do Rule The Pit Now :)

Curse You!

[Arcticwarrior]

what I am trying to say is it has become a little bit broken, as I am sure you cannot block it and you cannot deathward it. At least in ONLY pvp make a save or something because manyshot increases the ammount of crits a ranged shot usually crits at 18-20 (if I am correct) meaning a ranged ranger would basically triple its critical range meaning auto death to ANYONE in pvp. Ok so MAYBE I was being a little harsh with removing it but maybe making it a save. Because there are several other items and abilities that are not in pvp. Such as Purging The Pantheon or Morkaidens Disjuction.

[Visty]

what I am trying to say is it has become a little bit broken, as I am sure you cannot block it and you cannot deathward it. At least in ONLY pvp make a save or something because manyshot increases the ammount of crits a ranged shot usually crits at 18-20 (if I am correct) meaning a ranged ranger would basically triple its critical range meaning auto death to ANYONE in pvp. Ok so MAYBE I was being a little harsh with removing it but maybe making it a save. Because there are several other items and abilities that are not in pvp. Such as Purging The Pantheon or Morkaidens Disjuction.
actually crit range doesnt matter at all as it only procs on a 20

[Arcticwarrior]

nonetheless it manyshot increases crit frequency 3 attacks per shot still increases the crit range for slayer

[xTethx]

It's called get a hound shield and shield block. Ranged rangers are so gimp they cant even get thru the dr.

[Arcticwarrior]

It's called get a hound shield and shield block. Ranged rangers are so gimp they cant even get thru the dr.

actually as stated before IT GOES THROUGH SHIELDS

[Memnir]

Reenactment Time!


The Arcane Archer is in the white shirt and spiffy hat - melee is all in black, with the jaunty red sash. Let us sit back, and enjoy the fisticuffs!
.
.
.
.
http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/EnPsyane01/indiana_jones_lolfail.gif
.
.
.

:D

[Arcticwarrior]

my point right there

[Jendrak]

look I am a frequent player in pvp and I play barb and caster (20/17). They cannot kill a simple lvl 18 arcane archer because slayer keeps proc'ing. Please devs remove this curse! I understand other arcane archer imbues but seriously. Now that they have slayer in pvp its like they rule it.

Are you serious?????



Not just no but....HELL NO!!!!

[Rav'n]

+1 for the Effectual use of Spiffy and Jaunty to describe two DIFFERENT articles of clothing in the same sentence!






And as stated.... PvP should NOT effect any Change to the game. PvP is there merely to pass the time and have some fun.

[rjedi]

Reenactment Time!


The Arcane Archer is in the white shirt and spiffy hat - melee is all in black, with the jaunty red sash. Let us sit back, and enjoy the fisticuffs!
.
.
.
.
http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/EnPsyane01/indiana_jones_lolfail.gif
.
.
.

:D

lol +1 as if you need it....


forgot the shield :rolleyes::eek::cool::confused:

[Memnir]

my point right thereThat the whole thing is comical as hell, and should be laughed at? Yes, I agree.

Why don't we just take away every class-distinct ability in PvP? We could also give everyone the same movement speed, hit points, and stats - just so it's all fair. And then, we just hit each other with pillows. Because, it's absolutly unfair that any class use an ability or power that no other class has! It has to change! It's craziness!


...or we could just leave it the way it is, and laugh at it.
I know which option I prefer. :D



Oh, and Pillow Fights can get intense - if ya do em right.
.
.
http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/EnPsyane01/pillowfight.jpg
.
.
.

[Kyrn]

I find it funny there's complaints of a lv 18 ranger with AP's and feats sunk into it while a monk half the level can guarantee that damage every 15 seconds while a ranger has to get lucky :-)

Not to mention that you need 50 ki to use the ability, and if you want to abundant step to said archer, you need 10 ki more.

[heyytoi]

actually as stated before IT GOES THROUGH SHIELDS


sheild block negat the slayer effect

so sheild block till many shot is out and kill the rgr

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Tell me its a troll. :(

Please?!

[Raveolution]

let.s start removing from brawling area : otto irresistable, pw stun , lay on hands , barb rage , trip , stunning blow , cleric di , monk dark 500 hp fist, bard fascinate . Then remove tavern regen (infinite boosts and pally loh) in brawling area. Then remove tavern beverages (infinite spell casting) in brawling area. Do all this and i will let you nerf all my imbued arrows. And multi shoot too

[Morningfrost]

Dev, I have a better suggestion than the Op. TOTALLY remove pvp from game. No more cry-babies!

/signed

[shadowsaun]

why do people who hate pvp...troll pvp threads...

Please don't come to my tavern.

[Eladiun]

For the second time this week...NO.

[Missing_Minds]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=246925

Seems like you beat Clash into bringing it up, but no. Welcome to PvP. Blur and Displacement has always been your friend.

[Missing_Minds]

why do people who hate pvp...troll pvp threads...

Please don't come to my tavern.

Because nothing from PvP should ever effect the game as a whole. And don't worry, I don't.

[shadowsaun]

Because nothing from PvP should ever effect the game as a whole. And don't worry, I don't.

anyone who enjoys PvP on DDO MUST also never want anything changed to balance it. Its crazy to think that, and I defiantly don't want anything messed with as I love PvE just as much as PvP but PvE gets FIRST priority. I think the real problem here is attitude. I get negative repped when I say something pro pvp...so lame. What gets more hate in ddo than PvP?

[Bunker]

If this was the very first unbalancing ability in PVP, then I would say a change would be nice. However, this is not the only over powered ability a character has in PVP, (not PVE) so it really isn't that big a deal.

In fact, killing an AA with slayer arrows is no more difficult then getting the jump on an Arcane with PWS/otto combo. Basically, it is whom is quickest on the draw first.

Also, did you try greater dispell on the AA. Or how bout equiping that shield till his manyshot wears off.

There are plenty of ways to evn the playing field against an AA with slayer arrows.

OP: Sorry if you got owned in the arena. That is my only assumption to why you think there should be a change. I guess i take this thread as more of a rant then an actual idea on how to improve the game.

[mediocresurgeon]

Casters can kill anyone in PvP in 1 shot. Even rangers.

It's called Trap The Soul. Yes, it bypasses deathward/deathblock.

Ranged combat does not need a nerf. If anything, it should be improved.

[muffinlad]

no

nothing should get changed because of pvp

if you die to them, then change your way of killing them

well, maybe if they remove all spellcasting and disallow weapons, then
but as it is atm: no

Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen.

Enter gospel choir, clapping.

Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen.

muffinpulpit

[Chai]

why do people who hate pvp...troll pvp threads...

Please don't come to my tavern.

It isnt the PVP that is bad.

Its the crying and moaning about PVP based balance issues that never ends when PVP becomes a major part of a game, that sucks.

DDO got it right so far in my opinion. If you want to go kill eachother in the tavern, thats fine. But I dont want to hear all the moaning that ensues when one class or one build type always owns everyone else. DnD is not a PVP game, and thus it is not balanced for PVP. DDO should always remain true to this IMO.

I have played other games that had PVP servers, and PVP focus, and the "balancing" never ends. Neither does the moaning by the players of the classes that are currently lower on the PVP totem pole. A player will roll up a class they know to be good in PVP, their kill to death ratio is off the charts, partially due to skill, and partially due to class abilities that are more PVP focused than the other classes they fight against. They get on the forums, boast their win record, and tell all the current crybabies to stop complaining.

Then, the rebalance of their class (nerf) happens in a patch, and now this toon they invested months or even years on, is now gimped. Now this player who has been telling people to stop crying, is the one doing all the crying, due to losing all their invested time creating a toon that cant PVP its way out of a wet paper bag after the rebalance (nerf). This cycle rinses and repeats. It also affects PVE as much as PVP, because the class abilities are one and the same. Clerics used to be able to heal raids one day but now cant heal jack because healing was determined to be too powerful in PVP and got rebalanced. Your AC tank now gets hit by raid mobs every swing because no one could hit him in PVP, so the devs hit him with the nerf bat. You see where this is going...

DnD was never intended to be PvP, and never claimed to be balanced for PvP. Trying to start balancing classes based on tavern situations like this would be opening a pandoras box that would never get closed.

[Missing_Minds]

anyone who enjoys PvP on DDO MUST also never want anything changed to balance it. Its crazy to think that, and I defiantly don't want anything messed with as I love PvE just as much as PvP but PvE gets FIRST priority. I think the real problem here is attitude. I get negative repped when I say something pro pvp...so lame.

I haven't neg repped you. Welcome to high school. This game's focus was NEVER PvP. DnD's offical focus has never been PvP either. That is why you don't see the classes balanced against each other, just attempted to be balanced against Enemies.


What gets more hate in ddo than PvP?

You asked the question, so I'll answer honestly, and I do not mean this as a slight. The only thing I can think of that gets more hate are "bad ideas." Doesn't matter from whom, player or dev, bad ideas get hate.

[shadowsaun]

/\ Chai /\well said. I guess Ill ignore the whiners as unenlightened PvPers who don't understand the focus of DDO and can not win a match even if they are a caster.

This is why I lead a PvP guild. WE have fun, everyone else complains.

One more thing. Think about this. No matter what your build is, if you can be decent at pvp, it really helps you in questing. Many a time, I have been challenged on a quest boss or monster and felt that my pvp skills trained me to stay alive. Dodging arrows , Dodging RAY SPELLS, mob kiting, jumping, twitching, L.O.S., measure of power, handling pressure... all can come from PvP skills and experience. Also, it can help you if your a little timid in some hard battles...Humans are almost always harder to deal with the NPC monsters.

[shadowsaun]

I haven't neg repped you. Welcome to high school. This game's focus was NEVER PvP. DnD's offical focus has never been PvP either. That is why you don't see the classes balanced against each other, just attempted to be balanced against Enemies.



You asked the question, so I'll answer honestly, and I do not mean this as a slight. The only thing I can think of that gets more hate are "bad ideas." Doesn't matter from whom, player or dev, bad ideas get hate.

bad ideas like pvp...lol...

I don't think you would Missing_minds :) I also don't mind the negative rep. It doesn't affect my game play, social status in game, or my friends in any way. Anyway, done posing on pvp for today.

[Ashurr]

What gets more hate in ddo than PvP?

Idiots.

[shadowsaun]

Idiots.

I would say trolls Ashurr. I think you showed me by example what that meant. Thanks.

[Aashrym]

why do people who hate pvp...troll pvp threads...

Please don't come to my tavern.

It's not the PvP I have issues with. It's the changing my PvE game to accommodate it and spending dev resources on it.

[BlackyLigar]

look I am a frequent player in pvp and I play barb and caster (20/17). They cannot kill a simple lvl 18 arcane archer because slayer keeps proc'ing. Please devs remove this curse! I understand other arcane archer imbues but seriously. Now that they have slayer in pvp its like they rule it.

wow someone ruling pvp that isn't a caster.....? you're complainin because they can do 500 damage? as oposed to a caster that can do 3500 damage? no way man. you're doin something wrong.

there is nothing wrong with slayer arrows, especialy against a caster lol.

as far as barb goes. i totaly got owned by a lvl 13 barb. ofcoz that was before i got tharns goggles :)

-----

caster vs AA
use
power word stun
irrisistable dance
trap the soul
flesh to stone
magic missle
stone skin

have
spear block
pendant of warptime
a really nice shield

------

barb vs AA
run at them as fast as you can and trip them ;) balence is a cross class skill.

use
consider some of the afore mentioned items.

------

for real, nothin is broken with slay arrows. they're working exactly the way they're supposed to.

ps. all the other imbues suck!

[BlackyLigar]

Your AC tank now gets hit by raid mobs every swing because no one could hit him in PVP

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn244/forumzz/ScreenShot00023.jpg

no no, i hit those okay :)

[prowessss]

No, if you can't handle it roll up a toon who can destroy them

Trust me I love the brawl.... but when I die I see what killed me and how I should fix that not go complaining to someone else about a decesion to jump in a deadly pit

If you want pvp and don't like the ddo version be my guest go play a different game. No reason we should change the pve to please such a small minority

/advice Turbine loves it when you tell people to go play a different game.

[prowessss]

classes in Dungeons and Dragons aren't balanced against each other. they're harmonized. they're balanced to work with each other. Thus... rather than complaining about arcane archers using cowardly and cheap tactics like ledge hopping and manyshotting and kiting and generally being dishonorable snipers... complain about how they're constantly pulling mobs away and kiting them around, ruining your group's syncronicity. Complain about how you 11 manned shroud and did portals in under 20 seconds but on your second run you added an arcane archer and got a portal keeper.

KNOW YOUR ROLE!!

Arcane Archers! If you get in a shroud group, pretend you're not an AA!

[segfault0]

Lots of games have PVP, but this game really does do it exceptionally poorly.

First off, they ignore level/power differences and meekly try to cover it up with the euphemism of it being a "brawl". It's called lazy - trust me I'm well versed in lazy and recognize it readily.

It comes down to the fact that the classes in this game are designed to compliment each other - not to compete with each other. With the current system and high level enhancements/feats/procs - there is no way to avoid certain classes falling into niche "overpowered" slots.

Unfortunately, when you combine this with certain player personalities - you end up with certain times when the pvp pit in this game is reduced to a teenage temper tantrum/ego trip.

Although Im fine with just ignoring the pit if it irks me - I'd have to agree with the "remove PVP" sentiment.

[96th_Malice]

no

nothing should get changed because of pvp

if you die to them, then change your way of killing them

well, maybe if they remove all spellcasting and disallow weapons, then
but as it is atm: no

WOW Visty

First time you and I have ever agreed on anything on the forums ! ( Archer related that is lol )

Do NOT change the game for PvP

As for you casters ...... Get your FTS off before I roll a 20 or say goodnight !!

:)

[96th_Malice]

It seems to me that i DO rule the pit now :)

WE !!

:)

I got the left side !!

hehe

[96th_Malice]

I find it funny there's complaints of a lv 18 ranger with AP's and feats sunk into it while a monk half the level can guarantee that damage every 15 seconds while a ranger has to get lucky :-)

:)

9 times out of 10 the damage I am putting out will kill you before a slayer arrow ....

[sephiroth1084]

Absolutely nothing about PvP should affect any part of the game outside that arena. If the devs decide to spend time creating an entirely different set of rules for PvP, well...then they can change this, but will do so while angering nearly every subscriber as that will absolutely be seen as a complete waste of developer time. And don't kid yourself into thinking that, somehow, it A) won't take much time to change, B) won't cause bugs in the game as a whole, and C) that only the AA would need changing to make PvP reasonable again.

Suck it up, kiddo.Learn to play better in PvP, don't play with AAs, or stop playing PvP.


To those who suggested PvP be abolished entirely, all I can say is that there is really no need to do so simply because some people come onto the forums *****ing and moaning about it. PvP serves two functions, which should be in the game: it gives us something to do when not questing, and is an arena for players to test mechanics and builds (much of the knowledge, particularly regarding hidden effects on items and abilities) was gleaned from players doing testing in the PvP arena. It is a closed environment, perfect for running controlled experiments.

Leave it as is. Quit your crying.

[J1NG]

Personally, I feel the pain the OP pain and can understand why they want something done about it. After all, the vast majority of players have less than 500hp. Or will be especially after being hit with stat draining shots. And those able to get close enough ala monks in quick order can't actually hit because of the short range and the fact all good archers will be jumping around, preventing attacks from landing. Biased in AA favour? Definately.

Should it be removed? No.

My recommendation? AA's. DO NOT use slaying in PvP.

Lets face it, if you don't want a caster to Trap the Soul on you (also 1 in 20 if you have a high will save), or go nuts on you with all the disabling features they can muster (dispels, dances and stuns etc) and then you cry that they're not playing fair or by rules. Please don't overstep a nicety that what you have IS an instant kill for all intents and purposes in PvP.

Casters have Instant Kill spells, but don't use (typically). Those that do often get ganged up on anyway. Use Slaying only on someone clearly bullying is my recommendation. I've seen high level PvP play. And I whole heartedly bow before them. Why? Because they don't use things that you have no defence against. And they don't use every single defence that they can activate either.

It forces the idea that others can instant kill too in their fights. You have 500 damage hit whilst standing all the way on the other side? I'll zoom in when you're distracted and use Touch of Death on you. Or do a quick drop and Greater Dispell and Trap the Soul. It's no fun at all.

Play fair and have fun in PvP. Leave your slaying arrows where it is. On the hotbar.

Well, that's just my thoughts anyway. :)

J1NG

[96th_Malice]

My recommendation? AA's. DO NOT use slaying in PvP.

Play fair and have fun in PvP. Leave your slaying arrows where it is. On the hotbar.

Well, that's just my thoughts anyway. :)

J1NG

Sorry .... I got told for MONTHS if I didnt like the way casters played I should leave PvP !!

Ya so I kept making archers and fnally DDO gave us the best imbue ever !

All I can say ..... Is get your kills in before we get to 18th lvl !!

:)

[jcTharin]

What gets more hate in ddo than PvP?

lag maybe?

[Chai]

If you dont like it, dont PVP. D&D and by proxy DDO is not a class balance game. PVP is a novelty item in DDO and is there to kill time. Want to take PVP seriously, go play WOW.

[19BangoSkank19]

I want to say this,

Real and entertaining PvP is being held back by an 'old' guard of DDO elitists who like things as they are.
I say ENOUGH! Balance the character classes, introduce a pvp system with more depth and rewards earned
through a point or ranking system, and consider introducing a way of cross-server PvP. I am sure if the
devs would break away from the SMALL group of 'old' guard and pump some fresh blood into this aspect of
the game, it would produce very good results. If you want to see an example of how a good pvp system can
reinvigorate a game, look to WoW.

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.

[Visty]

I want to say this,

Real and entertaining PvP is being held back by an 'old' guard of DDO elitists who like things as they are.
I say ENOUGH! Balance the character classes, introduce a pvp system with more depth and rewards earned
through a point or ranking system, and consider introducing a way of cross-server PvP. I am sure if the
devs would break away from the SMALL group of 'old' guard and pump some fresh blood into this aspect of
the game, it would produce very good results. If you want to see an example of how a good pvp system can
reinvigorate a game, look to WoW.

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.

no, it wont produce good results
that you dont see that tells more about you then you might think

[sephiroth1084]

I want to say this,

Real and entertaining PvP is being held back by an 'old' guard of DDO elitists who like things as they are.
I say ENOUGH! Balance the character classes, introduce a pvp system with more depth and rewards earned
through a point or ranking system, and consider introducing a way of cross-server PvP. I am sure if the
devs would break away from the SMALL group of 'old' guard and pump some fresh blood into this aspect of
the game, it would produce very good results. If you want to see an example of how a good pvp system can
reinvigorate a game, look to WoW.

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.
There is no way to rebalance the classes to be on even remotely equal footing for PvP. Attempting to do so would completely change the game, and very much so for the worse.

[jingseng]

I want to say this,

Real and entertaining PvP is being held back by an 'old' guard of DDO elitists who like things as they are.
I say ENOUGH! Balance the character classes, introduce a pvp system with more depth and rewards earned
through a point or ranking system, and consider introducing a way of cross-server PvP. I am sure if the
devs would break away from the SMALL group of 'old' guard and pump some fresh blood into this aspect of
the game, it would produce very good results. If you want to see an example of how a good pvp system can
reinvigorate a game, look to WoW.

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.

That game already exists. I suggest you take your own advice, and look to WoW.

[19BangoSkank19]

That game already exists. I suggest you take your own advice, and look to WoW.

I enjoy DDO and can see the potential in it with a PvP system that is far more thought out
than the hash we have at the moment. I wouldn't be playing DDO if I didn't find it entertaining. I just
find it rather crazy that

1) So many people of this community find PvP not only reprehensible but only as an activity of the
'immature' which is ridiculous as it assumes that the minority represents the majority

2) So many people want no change whatsoever to create a PvP system that could be very rewarding
if only it were implemented

3) Claim that PvP'rs, in a quest for balance, are the only ones who complain when a change is made
to their class. Hate to say it, but PvE'rs often complain far more when a change is being made. For
example, the changes being made to TWF is causing many people to complain very loud about it.
A change to stop an exploit being bad? Hm...

People who want an intuitive PvP here are not the minority; it needs to happen. If implemented
effectively, the player base will grow and the dev's will see the perks of such a system. Do not
let the 'Old Guard' lead the game down a path of stagnation. Experiment, innovate, grow.

[19BangoSkank19]

And who is to say that it would be impossible to find a way to create engaging
and rewarding PvP? The Dev's should find the middle ground that would both entertain
the PvP enthusiast and sate the PvE'r while keeping both sides of the game strong.
I would not want to destroy what the game is at its core and I am sure there
is a way to do so. I am saying that we shouldn't stave off ANY talks of PvP, I am saying
that it should be developed a bit more than what it is right now.

[19BangoSkank19]

no, it wont produce good results
that you dont see that tells more about you then you might think

And you resort to a personal attack when faced with a challenge to rethink
changes to PvP? With your reasoning, does this tell good things about you?

[flynnjsw]

...snip
People who want an intuitive PvP here are not the minority; it needs to happen. If implemented
effectively, the player base will grow and the dev's will see the perks of such a system. ...snip.

Prove it. Let me add to that, prove it in THIS game.

[rdasca]

I want to say this,

<snip>

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.

No it did not need to be said.
PvP is not really part of the DDO game. It is there because other MMOs have it, plain and simple.
If it is your thing then have fun, but to demand that the devs use their time on something that very few actually ever do is silly. Now maybe if and when they fix the real bugs in DDO then maybe they can go back and look a PvP.

So to you and the OP:
/not signed.

[Missing_Minds]

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.

It is your opinion, but I do not want that in this game because then it would not be what we are playing.

What you want is DnD 4.0. Go play WoW as that is closest to it.

[sephiroth1084]

And who is to say that it would be impossible to find a way to create engaging
and rewarding PvP? The Dev's should find the middle ground that would both entertain
the PvP enthusiast and sate the PvE'r while keeping both sides of the game strong.
I would not want to destroy what the game is at its core and I am sure there
is a way to do so. I am saying that we shouldn't stave off ANY talks of PvP, I am saying
that it should be developed a bit more than what it is right now.
Impossible? Perhaps not, but it would likely require enough effort just thinking about how to make the changes that would be necessary that nothing else would get done in development. The only real way to make PvP at all balanced without completely scrapping the rest of the game would be to create an entirely different set of rules for how classes and characters function in the PvP arena, and at that point, why not just go play some other game?

As far as being rewarding and worthwhile goes...with the current model of the game, I can't fathom how Turbine would be able to market (make money off of) some revamped PvP system. Do you think such an addition would be sooo amazing that people would flock to the game for the PvP? And in great enough numbers to justify the tremendous development costs? I don't.

If you're dying for some PvP action, go play WoW, or Street Fighter, or Call of Duty.

[lutherl]

I want to say this,

Real and entertaining PvP is being held back by an 'old' guard of DDO elitists who like things as they are.
I say ENOUGH! Balance the character classes, introduce a pvp system with more depth and rewards earned
through a point or ranking system, and consider introducing a way of cross-server PvP. I am sure if the
devs would break away from the SMALL group of 'old' guard and pump some fresh blood into this aspect of
the game, it would produce very good results. If you want to see an example of how a good pvp system can
reinvigorate a game, look to WoW.

I am sure I am going to get some /not signed or what-not but it had to be said.
Is the game so perfect then? Is there nothing better to be done than balancing and retooling PVP?

Given that such a very small subset of players actually PVP, it would be illogical at best to "fix" it until the concerns that affect much larger populations of the game are taken care of, because frankly...PVP will NEVER be fixed. Every single item in the game that's introduced, every single feat, spell and enhancement will touch off a complete firestorm of "OMG SO OVERPOWERED".

Until the game is nigh-unto perfect, don't even fool with PVP. It would be an incredible mismanagement of resources.

[cpito]

I enjoy DDO and can see the potential in it with a PvP system that is far more thought out
than the hash we have at the moment. I wouldn't be playing DDO if I didn't find it entertaining. I just
find it rather crazy that

1) So many people of this community find PvP not only reprehensible but only as an activity of the
'immature' which is ridiculous as it assumes that the minority represents the majority.

Because PvP has little or no place in the original PnP game that this MMO was based off. DDO is a group oriented game and the push is for us to work together not fight each other.


2) So many people want no change whatsoever to create a PvP system that could be very rewarding
if only it were implemented.

Again, DDO is about a group of people working together toward a common goal. There are many mmo's out there that have tried balancing pvp and pve and have done nothing but created larger gaps in the community.


3) Claim that PvP'rs, in a quest for balance, are the only ones who complain when a change is made
to their class. Hate to say it, but PvE'rs often complain far more when a change is being made. For
example, the changes being made to TWF is causing many people to complain very loud about it.
A change to stop an exploit being bad? Hm....

Where? What? I think youre confusing your games since PvP isnt powerful enough in DDO for PvPers to complain about anything other than it not being powerful enough.


People who want an intuitive PvP here are not the minority; it needs to happen. If implemented
effectively, the player base will grow and the dev's will see the perks of such a system. Do not
let the 'Old Guard' lead the game down a path of stagnation. Experiment, innovate, grow.

You're assuming the minority of people coming here and calling for PvP is the majority and it's not. There are plenty of other games available out there that let's you build a toon for ganking others. You say "if implemented effectively"- that's too big an if for most of us who love DDO the way it is- a group oriented adventure. There is no need to turn this into another cookie cutter version of other mmos and the hard truth is that the majority of people playing DDO find the lack of intensive PvP to be extremely appealing.

[19BangoSkank19]

I never said I wanted to "build a toon to gank others". I would like to build a toon that can compete on a playing field with peers of equal skill.

Yes, the PvE content of DDO is amazing, hands down. That isn't my problem and I admit it is a very entertaining part of the game. I am just wanting SERIOUS ideas on introducing PvP into the game that does not injure the PvE experience. If we can imagine it, we can make it happen. When you simply say 'No, this cannot happen at all' you are hindering the progression of a rewarding style of gameplay.

I have seen both good and bad examples of PvE and PvP. Left completely open to pvp, you have the lawless lands of Ultima Online before their PvP revamp. It was an effective social experiment into competitiveness left unchecked. Examples where PvP is overbalanced in the MMO-verse are many. What I am saying here is find a common ground, some innovative way where PvP doesn't have to hurt the PvE experience and can in fact benefit the community as a whole.

"Originally Posted by 19BangoSkank19
3) Claim that PvP'rs, in a quest for balance, are the only ones who complain when a change is made
to their class. Hate to say it, but PvE'rs often complain far more when a change is being made. For
example, the changes being made to TWF is causing many people to complain very loud about it.
A change to stop an exploit being bad? Hm....
Where? What? I think youre confusing your games since PvP isnt powerful enough in DDO for PvPers to complain about anything other than it not being powerful enough. "

My response to this is to look at the forums on the Two Weapon Fighting Nerf coming out. I have never heard so many gamers complain so hard. Example of the complainers not being limited to PvP.

And like it or not, the group of gamers who want a solid and MATURE competitive environment is growing in DDO. You may consider us the minority, which may or may not be true on some servers, but serious PvP gamers are coming (not the immature lot that gives the genre its bad name) and innovation will be required.

[DoctorWhofan]

I never said I wanted to "build a toon to gank others". I would like to build a toon that can compete on a playing field with peers of equal skill.

[
Yes, the PvE content of DDO is amazing, hands down. That isn't my problem and I admit it is a very entertaining part of the game. I am just wanting SERIOUS ideas on introducing PvP into the game that does not injure the PvE experience. If we can imagine it, we can make it happen. When you simply say 'No, this cannot happen at all' you are hindering the progression of a rewarding style of gameplay.

I have seen both good and bad examples of PvE and PvP. Left completely open to pvp, you have the lawless lands of Ultima Online before their PvP revamp. It was an effective social experiment into competitiveness left unchecked. Examples where PvP is overbalanced in the MMO-verse are many. What I am saying here is find a common ground, some innovative way where PvP doesn't have to hurt the PvE experience and can in fact benefit the community as a whole.

"Originally Posted by 19BangoSkank19
3) Claim that PvP'rs, in a quest for balance, are the only ones who complain when a change is made
to their class. Hate to say it, but PvE'rs often complain far more when a change is being made. For
example, the changes being made to TWF is causing many people to complain very loud about it.
A change to stop an exploit being bad? Hm....
Where? What? I think youre confusing your games since PvP isnt powerful enough in DDO for PvPers to complain about anything other than it not being powerful enough. "

My response to this is to look at the forums on the Two Weapon Fighting Nerf coming out. I have never heard so many gamers complain so hard. Example of the complainers not being limited to PvP.

And like it or not, the group of gamers who want a solid and MATURE competitive environment is growing in DDO. You may consider us the minority, which may or may not be true on some servers, but serious PvP gamers are coming (not the immature lot that gives the genre its bad name) and innovation will be required.

This requires balance. 3.5 rules isn't about balance between the classes, It's about balance between the party and the eviroment. This game is based on DnD 3.5 rules. IT IS FUNDEMENTAL to how this game functions. How you role up characters and such.

Look, to get that balance in DDO, you have to take away the customization of character creation, or limit it severly. Look at other games, WoW, WAR. etc. with PvP as a major part of the game. Strip two of the same class (and level) down to their undies, and you have basically the same character, no matter who or what race it is. THis is to achieve BALANCE, not only between the classes but between different classes.

WIth this balancing, the classes have universal vurnabilites and strengths. No surprises it is the same no matter what. THus, making PvP easier because it comes down to gear and the player.

In DDO there is something called MULTICLASSING, that, done right, can correct most nerfs in a class by combining it with a another. Also adding the fact we can FULLY SPEC our class from level one on, We can make the Strong Rogue, instead ofthe DEX based one. Or the DEX based Fighter with INT, instead of the strong stupid one. And so on. THis breaks from traditional roles even in this game, let alone other MMOs. THis makes very hard for the Devs to make a BALANCED PvP. THe balances they did, make Clerics (normally a strong offensive caster in PvE) useless because alot of their spells cannot be used.

THen you cometo the builds. Healbots will do what in PvP? Group ones they would be instatarget...Kill the caster and the deticated healer first. So now they are forced to comform to another standard to be competitive in PvP. THis may not translate well to DDO's PvE. Imagine a PvP-only cleric in the shroud healing. Would it work? Maybe, but I doubt it. How about a PvP sorc? FvS? You have condemned classes to be either traditional or so broken they will not function in PvE.

Nerfing AA makes them useless in PvE. They just got marginally useful and now a nerf? THat is Balance. DDO ( and DnD) isn't, it is all about ebb and flow.

You have to understand that, how the fundemental game works. THey cannot just crowbar it in, even if Turbine wants to. It will break the game. THe game is designed for the ebb and flow of PnP, not the PvP balance of an MMO.

But it works.

FInally, the hate and discontent? Many of us came here to GET AWAY FROM PVP. And the audience such stuff brings. I can give you three threads right now why we don't like the sterotypical PvP crowd. THis isn't all the other MMOs...It is different, it marches to a differnent tune, and if it didn't, it would have died the first year.

[19BangoSkank19]

I respect your point. I have made mine. I think all of the points (the ones that addressed the issue besides only stating PvP is bad without any points made) are valid. I disagree respectfully. Thank you and the many passionate gamers for your many points of view. +1 rep to all with valid arguments

[DoctorWhofan]

I respect your point. I have made mine. I think all of the points (the ones that addressed the issue besides only stating PvP is bad) are valid. I disagree respectfully. Thank you for your many points of view.

Seriously, how would you DDO to add PvP? Really, how can you do without impacting PvE? That's the question. Outside PvMP, that is. I explianed how it won't work, tell me how it would. Otherwise, all you are goingto get is PvP sucks.

[19BangoSkank19]

Can't accept my admission that your points are valid but I respectfully disagree? +1 rep still for your prior argument.

[DoctorWhofan]

Can't accept my admission that your points are valid but I respectfully disagree? +1 rep still for your prior argument.

No, I applaud the fact you are being reasonable about it (unlike other threads) it's jsut I have played this game for years and the PnP for years and I cannot fathom how Turbine could retrofit PvP without messing up the game.

Perhaps I was trying to see someone to give it a thought. Most come here with "PvP iz ubar, wanna pwns in DDO but PvP here suxxors" without a justifcation or even a thought to say how they would work it in the game.

But yes, I came here because there wasn't PvP, so yeah, I agree that we will never see eye to eye on this subject.

Again, thank you for NOT being the sterotypical PvP crowd.

[h4x0r1f1c]

/signed

[Xeraphim]

It seems to me that i DO rule the pit now :)

Brawl Pit != PvP

PvP Arenas = PvP

Brawling = Test Area; Sandbox.

PvP != DDO:EU; Changes requested irrelevant.

Slayer does not proc enough in quests. Please increase the rate.

[savingsoul]

look I am a frequent player in pvp and I play barb and caster (20/17). They cannot kill a simple lvl 18 arcane archer because slayer keeps proc'ing. Please devs remove this curse! I understand other arcane archer imbues but seriously. Now that they have slayer in pvp its like they rule it.

Hahahaha!

On a more serious note, perhaps they should beef up the other imbues and maybe weaken slayer a little in exchange. I woud prefer it if they would just beef up the imbues though :p

[Austinb1235]

No, Its easy to kill an arcane ranger in PvP. Its just if you keep getting killed by one you dont go and complain about it on the fourms, like if i keep getting killed by chain lightning i dont go and ask it to be removed, find a way around it. Shield block untill the many shot over, scorch, done, or run around at the bottom untill their many shot is away, and many more ways

[SunisinuS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19BangoSkank19
I enjoy DDO and can see the potential in it with a PvP system that is far more thought out
than the hash we have at the moment. I wouldn't be playing DDO if I didn't find it entertaining. I just
find it rather crazy that

1) So many people of this community find PvP not only reprehensible but only as an activity of the
'immature' which is ridiculous as it assumes that the minority represents the majority.

"Because PvP has little or no place in the original PnP game that this MMO was based off. DDO is a group oriented game and the push is for us to work together not fight each other."

The original PnP game was ALL ABOUT PvP. You didn't walk into a town as a level 1 and see all the citizens walking around at level 5 (gods to you) and shoot your mouth off. You had better have been prepared as you slipped that wand out of your fellow adventurer's pack as he slept...better hope the DM gave you a good roll and you kept your inviso potion at the ready......Sorry, Pnp D&D without pvp is a snoozefest.

[Visty]

The original PnP game was ALL ABOUT PvP. You didn't walk into a town as a level 1 and see all the citizens walking around at level 5 (gods to you) and shoot your mouth off. You had better have been prepared as you slipped that wand out of your fellow adventurer's pack as he slept...better hope the DM gave you a good roll and you kept your inviso potion at the ready......Sorry, Pnp D&D without pvp is a snoozefest.

what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong

[Calebro]

what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong

^exactly this^


The d20srd on Good vs Evil: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#goodVsEvil)

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.

Notice the orange part. Killing for sport. That's what PvP is. And that's an evil act. The vast majority of enemies that we slaughter throughout this game are evil and/or attack us with intent to kill. We are defending ourselves the entire time. This is a game of heroism. If you actually read any of the dialogue you'd see that we're trying to save the world. This is the exact reason that Evil alignments aren't permitted (following the suggested rule in the DMG).

@Sinususis: rather than saying that "The original PnP game was ALL ABOUT PvP," one could argue that it frowned upon it heavily, and until Evil alignments are introduced, PvP has no place within DDO. So count yourself lucky to have the meager PvP system that you have, because by all rights you shouldn't even have that much.

[SunisinuS]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ

[Calebro]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ

http://www.motivationalz.com/pictures/logic.jpg

You do realize that it's player VERSUS player, right? So the other people in your group don't count. It's the things you're actively trying to kill that count.
For information about this, see my post that you ignored above.

[sephiroth1084]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ
Try putting your thinking cap on before posting next time, 'kay? :rolleyes:

[snoopy]

Whats Sad About The Author Of This Complaint Is That He Has A Lvl 20 Barb And A 17 Caster. If The Barb Is Getting Owed In Pvp By An Arcane Archer With Slayer Arrows, His Little BarB Must Have Less Then 500 Hit Points Then, Raged Even? Slayers Hit On That 20 For 500 Hit Points. Maybe He Should Consider A Re-roll.

[Vistella]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ

wrong

everything which isnt controlled by you or your party members (you know, those reallife persons out of flesh and blood sitting next to you) are NPCs

you might want to reread the DMG part about NPCs

€dit: as i really think you dont know what NPC means: NPC = Non-Player-Character

the bartender is an NPC
the chimera next to you is an NPC
the housecat sitting on the shelf is an NPC
the fighter/cleric, controlled by your friend Greg sitting next to you, is a PC (and NOT an NPC)

[SunisinuS]

Really?? The DM we "played" with sure would be surprised that he wasn't "playing" DND. Sorry, PVE players whining about pvp is about as old as the Beta of "Hello Kitty". I guess he wasnt "playing" monopoly when he was the Banker either. Blowback all you want pve'ers...heard it all. Afraid of pvp, hate pvp, anyone that plays pvp is terrible and evil and mean, if they have a forum on pvp it may ruin our pve world....ad nauseum. And why again are you posting in the pvp forum since you hate it so much?


Logic=?


Now PVE'ers, I think I hear your mother calling....its ok you can go back to your other forums while the Adults talk pvp. Love ya much!

[Calebro]

Really?? The DM we "played" with sure would be surprised that he wasn't "playing" DND. Sorry, PVE players whining about pvp is about as old as the Beta of "Hello Kitty". Blowback all you want pve'ers...heard it all. And why again are you posting in the pvp forum since you hate it so much?


Logic=?
PC stands for Player Character.
DM stands for Dungeon Master. The DM is not a player. The DM IS the environment. The situations that you're attempting to use as basis for your argument are all PvE examples.

For the record, I have nothing against PvP, other than the fact that attempting to balance it results in unbalancing parts of PvE, and that's always a HUGE problem.

[jcTharin]

I'll /sign this on a few conditions. Make the following changes as well:

1) Rogues don't get sneak attack in PvP
2) Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics and Favored Souls can't cast spells in PvP
3) Barbarians aren't allowed to Rage in PvP
4) Paladins aren't allowed to Smite in PvP
5) Fighters lose access to their bonus feats in PvP
6) Monks unarmed attack speed drops to equal a Fighter or equal level in PvP

If the following changes are made, then I'll /sign this idea. Otherwise, no.
This is basically the equivalent of what you're asking.

rogues don't get sneak attack in pvp, fortification blocks it. they also cant sneak in pvp.

paladins cant smite in pvp ether. there aren't any evil players.

[Calebro]

rogues don't get sneak attack in pvp, fortification blocks it. they also cant sneak in pvp.

paladins cant smite in pvp ether. there aren't any evil players.

I was simply making a point about the OP's idea. You understood that point and are nitpicking details.

[jcTharin]

I was simply making a point about the OP's idea. You understood that point and are nitpicking details.

you have a point there

[Uska]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19BangoSkank19
I enjoy DDO and can see the potential in it with a PvP system that is far more thought out
than the hash we have at the moment. I wouldn't be playing DDO if I didn't find it entertaining. I just
find it rather crazy that

1) So many people of this community find PvP not only reprehensible but only as an activity of the
'immature' which is ridiculous as it assumes that the minority represents the majority.

"Because PvP has little or no place in the original PnP game that this MMO was based off. DDO is a group oriented game and the push is for us to work together not fight each other."

The original PnP game was ALL ABOUT PvP. You didn't walk into a town as a level 1 and see all the citizens walking around at level 5 (gods to you) and shoot your mouth off. You had better have been prepared as you slipped that wand out of your fellow adventurer's pack as he slept...better hope the DM gave you a good roll and you kept your inviso potion at the ready......Sorry, Pnp D&D without pvp is a snoozefest.

thats not really pvp and no groups I ever played with played that way we didnt rip each other off we were a team as an adventuring group should be the only time I saw that kind of play was at cons where it was a pick up game and most players didnt know each other if thats how you and yours play I am etneraly greatful never to have played with you.

[Uska]

"what you describe is a fight vs NPCs
thats called PvE, players vs environment

pvp in pnp means attacking your party members, and that usualy doesnt happen

so i have to say: you are wrong"

Lol you were all such lucky kids.....your DM was Big Blue built by IBM? I never once fought an AI monster in any PNP session I ever played. How did you manage it? I mean I had an AMIGA and it was awesome, but it never got me mountain dew and frito's while it narrated "The Keep on the Borderlands". Wow you are amazing ...and all that time I thought the DM I played with was a person and the people in my party were real and not robots. Wow. You sure were some lucky kids...all we had was Player Vs Player battles in my pnp sessions....and I could have sworn my DM was a person. I mean the DM rolled all the "monsters" rolls and made their strat and tactics for them....and yet you guys all had robots and AI for that? You people must have been a bunch of Ritchie Rich's! You keep playing your AI, I seem to prefer playing with and against real players, exclusively in pnp and throughout all the MMO's I have ever played. Hope your Chess Wizard keeps you warm at night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4InEGJzOsQ

The Dm isnt a player he is the enviroment so thats PvE

[SunisinuS]

Mystified that you cannot tell the difference between a DM and a footstool. One sits on the other. One is in the environment, one is the environment. Sorry....that DM there will never be PVE'esque. And the "thank God I never played at a con or did any pvp or played with anyone that did".... you really missed out on some professional fun play there then...feel sorry for ya. It's like saying I love FootBall but would never want a free ticket to the superbowl (psst...btw....football is pvp). And again, why are you talking with people that like pvp then?

Mystified.

[Calebro]

Mystified that you cannot tell the difference between a DM and a footstool. One sits on the other. One is in the environment, one is the environment.

Referring to the game environment here, Sherlock, not the environment you're sitting in while you play.

You and the other people with game characters make up the players. That's why they're called Player Characters. Because the PLAYERS run them.
Exactly which things in the game does the DM control? Every single thing except for the PCs. This includes the NPCs, or Non-Player Characters.
I'll repeat that for you.
Non
Player
Characters
And who runs them? The DM. Because he IS the environment. He is not a player. He controls the game environment. He's almost kind of like a "Master of the Dungeon" or something. While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. He is the E in the PvE equation.

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

[Vistella]

And again, why are you talking with people that like pvp then?

Mystified.

hitler talked to jews too (in some way)

[LightInDark]

so the argument has devolved to Nazi accusations ....

way past time to close this thread

[SunisinuS]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

The "Arcane Archer" in PVP is what scared somebody. So people comfortable with pvp start talking counters that exist in game and almost universally (PVP Vets I'm talking about here) do not want anything in PVE manipulated or changed unless it is just flat out bad code (Borked Wand targetting in pvp for example). So no one wants your PVE experience changed or ruined for you. Guild Wars is a game DESIGNED around and for PVP, but you can play exclusively PVE and never PVP if you like, and neither need the twain meet. Seemless. So I want you to realize that it is only perspective and approach that prevent both parties from having what they want.

Another Turbine Game: Asheron's call. Darktide: PVP only server, full loot, full experience loss. The stuff of nightmares for pve players. Darktide was actually what kept AC going after all the pve players had moved on to the next FOTM, and Turbine did not invest much in it at all. Everyone that is experienced in pvp wants the same thing you Pve'ers want: For you not to play PVP if you are a hater.

In AC, pvp was diametrically opposite of what the pve people are mythically afraid of; in fact you made closer and better friendships and ties in pvp, cooperation was more intense, and people had a terrific time. For Example: If you were out farming a MOB on the beach and you saw a red dot on your radar, you of course went...uh oh. You were fully engaged with a MOB and that person could steal your kill, or kill you, ganking and making you feel as if you were griefed. That is what a PVE player tells everyone, that those two things always happen. Wrong. They rarely happened. PVP is like a Mafia/Gang world. They need all the people they can get. So that red dot is more likely to come up and watch you, not interfere, see what your plan is and your reaction to them, and if they like you, try and recruit you; not grief you. If you panic and attack them or act unnaturally, you may get more attention, but in general, PVP players are more devoted, more social, and more intense in respect to the game in general. This should be applauded and not derided.

I hope PVE stays just the way you like it. I don't care. So you can lay off the insults against pvp players and their way of life and play pve all day long. But the people that really care about the mechanics of the game will be here whenever you want to dip your toes in the cold cold water.

GL and HF!

[Calebro]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

This is where I stopped reading, because you can't get it through your head that:
1) The DM is not a player, and therefore does not count as PvP
and
2) I have nothing against PvP in and of itself, but rather that any attempts to balance it after the fact always result in imbalances in the PvE portion, and as this is primarily a PvE game that should NEVER happen.

If you can come to terms with these two facts.... and they are indeed facts.... then we can continue this conversation.
If you can't grasp these concepts we have nothing left to say to each other.

[Vistella]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly. In any case, you can make any personal attacks you want, insult other's intelligence (I only cast aspersions on your courage), and make histrionic historical hyperbolic hay, but the truth remains: PVE players hate PVP in general it seems because it scares them. Now let's work on that:

The "Arcane Archer" in PVP is what scared somebody. So people comfortable with pvp start talking counters that exist in game and almost universally (PVP Vets I'm talking about here) do not want anything in PVE manipulated or changed unless it is just flat out bad code (Borked Wand targetting in pvp for example). So no one wants your PVE experience changed or ruined for you. Guild Wars is a game DESIGNED around and for PVP, but you can play exclusively PVE and never PVP if you like, and neither need the twain meet. Seemless. So I want you to realize that it is only perspective and approach that prevent both parties from having what they want.

Another Turbine Game: Asheron's call. Darktide: PVP only server, full loot, full experience loss. The stuff of nightmares for pve players. Darktide was actually what kept AC going after all the pve players had moved on to the next FOTM, and Turbine did not invest much in it at all. Everyone that is experienced in pvp wants the same thing you Pve'ers want: For you not to play PVP if you are a hater.

In AC, pvp was diametrically opposite of what the pve people are mythically afraid of; in fact you made closer and better friendships and ties in pvp, cooperation was more intense, and people had a terrific time. For Example: If you were out farming a MOB on the beach and you saw a red dot on your radar, you of course went...uh oh. You were fully engaged with a MOB and that person could steal your kill, or kill you, ganking and making you feel as if you were griefed. That is what a PVE player tells everyone, that those two things always happen. Wrong. They rarely happened. PVP is like a Mafia/Gang world. They need all the people they can get. So that red dot is more likely to come up and watch you, not interfere, see what your plan is and your reaction to them, and if they like you, try and recruit you; not grief you. If you panic and attack them or act unnaturally, you may get more attention, but in general, PVP players are more devoted, more social, and more intense in respect to the game in general. This should be applauded and not derided.

I hope PVE stays just the way you like it. I don't care. So you can lay off the insults against pvp players and their way of life and play pve all day long. But the people that really care about the mechanics of the game will be here whenever you want to dip your toes in the cold cold water.

GL and HF!

/fail

[Chai]

If it keeps procing slayer, it cant be all that bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6_zsJ8KPP0

[rdasca]

Funny I DMed many a game session, and only a couple of times did I ever run a PC at the same time, and only then because it was necessary for some reason.

DM = Dungeon Master, you know the guy that is in charge of the game, decides what rules to use, where the bad guys are, what treasure is there, ect... The DM is the one person who can change a dice roll if the result would "ruin" the game, if the DM messes up an encounter he can have all the bad guys run away or suddenly have 50 more join the fight, basically balance the game as needed. So while the DM is playing the game, the DM is not a player, therefore it is not PvP it is PvE or if you like PvDM.

PC = Player Character, these are the players of the fantasy world the DM is running, whether a purely home build one or a module bought off a shelf.

PvP in PnP does not exist in most people's D&D games, the only time I can even think that it might would be if the party was evil, but then most evil parties rarely last more than one session. (and yes I am sure there are several people here who played evil characters to level 500 or whatever, but the point is the majority of D&D games are good based)

You whole argument is a fail SunisinuS simply because you do not understand the difference between playing the game and being a player of a character. Your argument further bakes down when you talk about the DM “runs the monsters” that example is clearly PvE to say otherwise is to prove a lack of understanding of D&D.

BTY, I could care less about PvP within DDO, with the exceptions that time spent working on PvP does not take up a developer’s time that could be used to fix bugs and add new content, and as long as changes are not made in PvP affect the rest of the game in anyway.

[Robi3.0]

hitler talked to jews too (in some way)

I get ragged on for bring up Neo-nazi, by a random someone. So I am going to have to rag on you a bit for bring up Hitler.


K, done :)

[cpito]

/snip

Wow, really. Yes, the DM plays the game. Here's a breakdown for you:

George: Monk
Cathy: Ranger
Dave1: Magic User
Andy: Paladin
Mike: Cavalier
Dave2: Cleric

All these people are playing with and guided through quests by

Lori: DM/GOD using the original computer... otherwise known as a brain.

To be perfectly honest, there is PvP available to PnP players when Lori decides to throw a Helm of Opposite Alignment at the party and Andy puts it on before Dave1 manages to identify it. Now George, Cathy, Dave1, Dave2 and Mike have a chaotic evil former paladin bent on destroying them all to contend with. Notice that Lori is not in that equation? That's because she created the situation.

Of special note, concerning the original topic, is that no rule changes were ever implemented just because we were now fighting one of our own.

[t0r012]

Whats Sad About The Author Of This Complaint Is That He Has A Lvl 20 Barb And A 17 Caster. If The Barb Is Getting Owed In Pvp By An Arcane Archer With Slayer Arrows, His Little BarB Must Have Less Then 500 Hit Points Then, Raged Even? Slayers Hit On That 20 For 500 Hit Points. Maybe He Should Consider A Re-roll.

+1
I could see the caster with an issue but a caped barb?? Seriously he should be walk up and take the manyshot to the face with slayer proc , then proceed to take the guys bow and stick it where the sun don't shine.

----------
on a side note
to help with the complete imbalance of AA in PvP the devs added something for you that only works in PvP, a nifty feat called deflect arrows that only works in PvP.

[Nuralanya]

Whats Sad About The Author Of This Complaint Is That He Has A Lvl 20 Barb And A 17 Caster. If The Barb Is Getting Owed In Pvp By An Arcane Archer With Slayer Arrows, His Little BarB Must Have Less Then 500 Hit Points Then, Raged Even? Slayers Hit On That 20 For 500 Hit Points. Maybe He Should Consider A Re-roll.

Just to clarify this point, Slayer arrows hit for MORE than 500 points. The Slayer effect goes off on a 20, which is a critical hit. The 500 points is IN ADDITION to the regular critical damage. My Arcane Archer often hits for well over 650 points of damage on a 20 with a 'regular' type of bow (i.e. not a Shroud weapon). Add to that the chance of rolling more than one 20 in a manyshot volley (I sometimes get two or even three), and that's a lot of damage in a couple of seconds.

(btw, I have no interest in either PvP or getting into build discussions. I just wanted to comment on this one point. You may return to your discussion now. :))

[MartinusWyllt]

"While he is technically playing, he is not a Player in respect to PvP. " Ergo Ipso Facto. God is in the details. Thanks for making my point. He is PLAYING. He is just as much a player as the Banker in Monopoly.

The DM is just as much a player as the referee/umpire/judge for whatever game. The DM interprets the rules, draws the playing field, tells the story in and upon which the players...play. Monopoly would probably run smoother if the Banker took his little dog off the board. No temptation, no embezzling.

[Calebro]

The "Arcane Archer" in PVP is what scared somebody. So people comfortable with pvp start talking counters that exist in game and almost universally (PVP Vets I'm talking about here) do not want anything in PVE manipulated or changed unless it is just flat out bad code (Borked Wand targetting in pvp for example). So no one wants your PVE experience changed or ruined for you. Guild Wars is a game DESIGNED around and for PVP, but you can play exclusively PVE and never PVP if you like, and neither need the twain meet. Seemless. So I want you to realize that it is only perspective and approach that prevent both parties from having what they want.

Another Turbine Game: Asheron's call. Darktide: PVP only server, full loot, full experience loss. The stuff of nightmares for pve players. Darktide was actually what kept AC going after all the pve players had moved on to the next FOTM, and Turbine did not invest much in it at all. Everyone that is experienced in pvp wants the same thing you Pve'ers want: For you not to play PVP if you are a hater.

In AC, pvp was diametrically opposite of what the pve people are mythically afraid of; in fact you made closer and better friendships and ties in pvp, cooperation was more intense, and people had a terrific time. For Example: If you were out farming a MOB on the beach and you saw a red dot on your radar, you of course went...uh oh. You were fully engaged with a MOB and that person could steal your kill, or kill you, ganking and making you feel as if you were griefed. That is what a PVE player tells everyone, that those two things always happen. Wrong. They rarely happened. PVP is like a Mafia/Gang world. They need all the people they can get. So that red dot is more likely to come up and watch you, not interfere, see what your plan is and your reaction to them, and if they like you, try and recruit you; not grief you. If you panic and attack them or act unnaturally, you may get more attention, but in general, PVP players are more devoted, more social, and more intense in respect to the game in general. This should be applauded and not derided.

I hope PVE stays just the way you like it. I don't care. So you can lay off the insults against pvp players and their way of life and play pve all day long. But the people that really care about the mechanics of the game will be here whenever you want to dip your toes in the cold cold water.

GL and HF!

These games that you describe were all designed with PvP in mind. PvP in DDO was an afterthought, not a design factor. There wasn't even any PvP at all when this game was released, it was added later. This is the huge, glaring difference between these games. It's such a large distinction that you can't even compare them.

Balancing PvP always brings changes to the balance of PvE.
With games that are designed with PvP in mind, these changes are tolerated by the playerbase because it is taken for granted that they will occur. People complain that so-and-so-class is OP, and whomever was "King of the PvP Hill" for a while always gets hit with the nerf bat, all in the name of balance. When this happens, a new PvP King emerges, and the cycle starts all over again.
This is the life cycle of classes in a PvP oriented game, and that's fine because it's accepted.

This is unacceptable in a PvE oriented game, as this type of activity would take classes through a revolving door of usefulness. While that may be acceptable in a PvP oriented game, it is not accepted in a PvE oriented game.

So go ahead and shout scripture about the PvP systems of other games all you like, but those games are not DDO.
You "hope PVE stays just the way <we> like it"....?
THANKS! So do I! So stop trying to break the PvE for us!

I have played both PvP games and PvE games, and I can tell you that DDO is the latter, not the former.

If PvP is such a huge concern for you, perhaps you should consider playing a game that was actually designed with PvP in mind, rather than trying to break a game that didn't even concern itself with PvP until recently, just so that you can feel superior to someone else.

When I want a hamburger I don't walk into Taco Bell and demand that they change their menu because they happen to have ground beef, I go to a burger joint.
When I feel like punching someone I don't join a soccer team and demand that we play rugby, I join a rugby team instead.
If PvP is such a huge concern for you, try playing a game that was designed for it rather than changing a game that wasn't.

[SunisinuS]

Didn't I just state all that so you didn't have to? The same pachinko machine collects all pve'ers comments into about 3 slots: 1. Any hint or discussion of pvp will ruin us. 2. Why don't you play another game? 3. We don't like pvp, so stop playing it and leave us alone (usually posted in the PVP let me repeat that for emphasis PVP forum).

If you actually read the post and not knee-jerk you will have learned that I do play other pvp games...I asked for no changes to pve DND, and I agree it is a poorly thought out pvp game mechanic and tacked on perhaps. So?

Do you own DND or something? Can the pvp players even log on or is that too much for you?

[SunisinuS]

Wow, really. Yes, the DM plays the game. Here's a breakdown for you:

George: Monk
Cathy: Ranger
Dave1: Magic User
Andy: Paladin
Mike: Cavalier
Dave2: Cleric

All these people are playing with and guided through quests by

Lori: DM/GOD using the original computer... otherwise known as a brain.

To be perfectly honest, there is PvP available to PnP players when Lori decides to throw a Helm of Opposite Alignment at the party and Andy puts it on before Dave1 manages to identify it. Now George, Cathy, Dave1, Dave2 and Mike have a chaotic evil former paladin bent on destroying them all to contend with. Notice that Lori is not in that equation? That's because she created the situation.

Of special note, concerning the original topic, is that no rule changes were ever implemented just because we were now fighting one of our own.

Thank goodness we have a real PNP player that understands DND in the forum. I salute you.

[Calebro]

Didn't I just state all that so you didn't have to? The same pachinko machine collects all pve'ers comments into about 3 slots: 1. Any hint or discussion of pvp will ruin us. 2. Why don't you play another game? 3. We don't like pvp, so stop playing it and leave us alone (usually posted in the PVP let me repeat that for emphasis PVP forum).

If you actually read the post and not knee-jerk you will have learned that I do play other pvp games...I asked for no changes to pve DND, and I agree it is a poorly thought out pvp game mechanic and tacked on perhaps. So?

Do you own DND or something? Can the pvp players even log on or is that too much for you?

You're reading only what you want to read.
1) I never said that PvP will ruin us.
2) You're taking my comments about playing a different game out of context.
3)I never told anyone to stop playing PvP.

What I've been saying is that no changes should be made because of PvP'ers thinking something is imbalanced. Zero changes for this reason. None.

Reread the OP and then reread my previous post and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[cpito]

Thank goodness we have a real PNP player that understands DND in the forum. I salute you.

Muchas gracias and all but my example was to demonstrate how the DM is the E in PvE :)

[96th_Malice]

Slayer does not proc enough in quests. Please increase the rate.

I have found a fix for this bug !

Increase your Confirm Crit hits ..... and oh ya

ROLL MORE 20's !!!!

:)

[SunisinuS]

Muchas gracias and all but my example was to demonstrate how the DM is the E in PvE :)

And you proved my point. Thanks. And I think the PVE'ers have hijacked this thread enough already. One easy quick solution to AA is to play phoenix and not lobster. Many spots where line of sight is broken and they cannot just stand there shooting down a football field clearing.

Lobster really should not be the pvp spot. Like playing Capture the Flag indoors.

[6PEBHO]

dont read the thread - make a fast reply

quick guide of HOWTO kill AA:
-use any caster
-have shield block active
-have quicken
-have enlarge
-drain mantle of worldshaper using whatever
-use greater command/symbol of stun/whatever
-kill AA to death

tested running a lvl20 AA

[Vistella]

Thank goodness we have a real PNP player that understands DND in the forum. I salute you.

thats called a winning team joiner, right?

[96th_Malice]

dont read the thread - make a fast reply

quick guide of HOWTO kill AA:
-use any caster
-have shield block active
-have quicken
-have enlarge
-drain mantle of worldshaper using whatever
-use greater command/symbol of stun/whatever
-kill AA to death

tested running a lvl20 AA

Haha awesome ..... however

QUICKER guide on AA killing casters

1 - Find caster standing around looking "cool" in pvP arena
2 - press Manyshot
3 - Wait for Slayer / Greater Bane / triple neg / or Lightening Strike to kill caster
4 - Watch caster flop over dead on the floor ( again )
5 - Repeat as required !

( note -- AA saves do need to be somewhat decent -- and ALWAYS stay on the opposite side of the lobster of the opposing caster !! .. hehe )

tested on MANY lvl 20 wizzies n sorcs .... over and over !

:)

Trick is you gotta know who your fighting and what to use !

[Holymosher]

Haha awesome ..... however

QUICKER guide on AA killing casters

1 - Find caster standing around looking "cool" in pvP arena
2 - press Manyshot
3 - Wait for Slayer / Greater Bane / triple neg / or Lightening Strike to kill caster
4 - Watch caster flop over dead on the floor ( again )
5 - Repeat as required !

( note -- AA saves do need to be somewhat decent -- and ALWAYS stay on the opposite side of the lobster of the opposing caster !! .. hehe )

tested on MANY lvl 20 wizzies n sorcs .... over and over !

:)

Trick is you gotta know who your fighting and what to use !




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA lookin cool what they always do thinking theyre so superior

[dieselphiend]

ok ok, lol. i knew this thread would pop up sooner or later, ha! but anyways im an AA on Thelanis, and i spend more time in the Lobster pvp pit than anyone else. Heck i nearly live there and pwn it. I'm a former fps player of 13 years, so i guess im addicted to killing real people. But anyways. I have 447 unbuffed standing hp's, 528 self buffed, 571 raid buffed. I can survive almost any manyshot volley any ranger on the server can throw at me simply by shield blocking and quick self heals. Anyone with a good shield and over 400 hp's (or ac in the 60's). can do this. As we all should know shield blocking negates special weapon effects. As far im concerned less than 400 hp's is an auto-gimp. Get your hp's up. Get a good shield. And stop whining. I f i were a caster i could kill me easy knowing what i know.