Bloodstone vs. LotD

[Krag]

Powergamers and math-experts, your insight is needed. Which one is the best high-end melee trinket?
Is it a good idea to wear LotD + Marilith Chain or would Bloodstone + DT contribute more to DPS/utility?
What if Red Dragon Armor and Epic Marilith Chain are available?

[Krag]

bump

[HeavenlyCloud]

I prefer litany + mentau goggles + DT :), but i'm not a math-expert.

[Krag]

Have not thought of this possibility. Don't you miss Tharne's Goggles?

[Sweyn]

I have this same issure with my ranger, and is why my lotd is in the bank for the time being. I tried out Litany + Mentaus, but i did find i missed tharnes. (Seeing 17 damage on a sneak (1 rogue lvl) To only 4-9 kinda sucked.)

However, if you can get Litany + Mentau's + Epic bracers of the hunter, well that would be golden :)

[HeavenlyCloud]

Have not thought of this possibility. Don't you miss Tharne's Goggles?

Not at all most of the time i got aggro.

[Kintro]

Lets assume you're using a greataxe: 19-20 crit x3 and your strength was odd. Over a full set of 20 rolls:

LoTD 2-18 = +2 = 34
LoTD 19-20 = +2*3 = 12
LoTD Total = 46

Bloodstone 2-18 = +0 = 0
Bloodstone 19-20 = +6*3 = +36
Bloodstone Total = +36

So, aslong as your strength is odd without the litany you're better off (on average) even without another seeker item. Situation reverses with higher crit multipliers however, FB with Greataxe for instance:

LoTD 2-18 = +2 = 34
LoTD 19-20 = +2*6 = 24
LoTD Total = +58

Bloodstone 2-18 = +0 = 0
Bloodstone 19-20 = +6*6 = +72
Bloodstone Total = +72

[BlackSteel]

fighting style and str bracket will also influence the answer quite a bit.

I switched back to the bloodstone on my Barb until I get a Str 4 tome, as with a +3 and the epic dragon helm he's at unbuffed standing 40.

[Rav'n]

Not at all most of the time i got aggro.

Shouldn't that have been accomponied by an "Evil" laugh... kind of like....


Not at all most of the time i got aggro...*Blah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha*

[REALb0r3d]

You forget to take into account what a well thought out class has to gain from lintany.
If you've managed to make all your stats uneven and you have more than 2 core stats you also gain 2 AC on a monk or exploiter. The bloodstone is best only in a situation where you crit often as far as DPS goes, otherwise an uneven stat evened out by LotD gives you 1 damage per swing beating out crit damage from bloodstone.

[maddmatt70]

If you have the resources the epic red dragon armor adds the most dps assuming the mobtype is not resistant to fire so I would try to fit that in. My long term goal for my fighter is to have red dragon armor and another dragon armor for mobs resistant to fire. I like the epic marilith chain for my second best melee assuming its a non evasion character I guess. Probably your best general setup is something like Litany and mentau and epic bracer of hunter (or wretched twilight) and red dragon armor. As others have pointed out there are other factors such as what type of weapon and combat style and is this for a wf or fleshy etc which will influence your decision. For my twf dwarven war axe fighter I am going with epic bloodstone, tharnes and dragon armors - I just need the pesky shard for the epic bloodstone. One other armor which is rarely mentioned but is intriguing for certain builds is the epic vulkorim leathers which has a +4 attack bonus and has same SA as epic bracers of hunter.

[Krag]

Nice suggestions, keep it coming.

Digging through Definitive Loot thread I've stumbled upon Deathnip (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/Deathnip.jpg).

Litany + Tharnes + Red Dragonscale Robe + Deathnip + Lit II
Sounds like a decent trash-beating set.

[Sirea]

You can get Wretched Twilight for the SA damage if you go with Litany + Mentau's. Granted it's only +4 vs. Tharne's +5, but it's not much of a difference.

[blitzschlag]

Lets assume you're using a greataxe: 19-20 crit x3 and your strength was odd. Over a full set of 20 rolls:

LoTD 2-18 = +2 = 34
LoTD 19-20 = +2*3 = 12
LoTD Total = 46

Bloodstone 2-18 = +0 = 0
Bloodstone 19-20 = +6*3 = +36
Bloodstone Total = +36

So, aslong as your strength is odd without the litany you're better off (on average) even without another seeker item. Situation reverses with higher crit multipliers however, FB with Greataxe for instance:

LoTD 2-18 = +2 = 34
LoTD 19-20 = +2*6 = 24
LoTD Total = +58

Bloodstone 2-18 = +0 = 0
Bloodstone 19-20 = +6*6 = +72
Bloodstone Total = +72

you get 1.5 times your strength bonus to damage while twohandfighting. only powerattack bonus is doubled.

[BlackSteel]

you get 1.5 times your strength bonus to damage while twohandfighting. only powerattack bonus is doubled.


the LoTd has two bonuses relevant to a melee

it gives +1 to all stats AND +1 to hit and damage on top of the stat bonus

so a TWF would gain +2

and a THF could gain more per hit depending on what str they land on due to rounding issues

[blitzschlag]

and a THF could gain more per hit depending on what str they land on due to rounding issues

if you take 2.5 additional damage with the mentioned greataxe (thus i spoke of twohanders), the lotd barb would add 72.5 damage and the bloodstoned one would do 72.

[mediocresurgeon]

if you take 2.5 additional damage with the mentioned greataxe (thus i spoke of twohanders), the lotd barb would add 72.5 damage and the bloodstoned one would do 72.

Consider Epic Bloodstone (+8 seeker). Also consider Epic Sword of Shadow (15-20/x4). Also consider 50% Fortification (Harry, Suulomades, Judge, Horoth). Also consider Frenzied Berserker (+3 to critical multiplier on 19-20) and Kensei (expand critical range by 1).

There are a lot of situational factors which can affect whether Bloodstone trumps Litany of the Dead or vice versa.

OP, can you please give us more information on your build?

[blitzschlag]

Consider Epic Bloodstone (+8 seeker). Also consider Epic Sword of Shadow. Also consider 50% Fortification. Also consider Frenzied Berserker (+3 to critical multiplier on 19-20) and Kensei (expand critical range by 1).

There are a lot of situational factors which can affect whether Bloodstone trumps Litany of the Dead or vice versa.

OP, can you please give us more information on your build?

my comment was just a reply to kintro's post that his numbers are not quite correct. on the other hand you wearing epic marilith chain or at least the mentau goggles if you don't wear a bloodstone ;)

[Slink]

I prefer litany + mentau goggles + DT :), but i'm not a math-expert.

^ This.
+ the new wretched twilight grants sneak attack +4

Granted it isnt for everyone but I am holding out hope on my fighters that epic necro will pan out for those alts.
It is slighty behind bloodstone in DPS for sure but not by much if litany puts you to even stats.

[BlackSteel]

if you take 2.5 additional damage with the mentioned greataxe (thus i spoke of twohanders), the lotd barb would add 72.5 damage and the bloodstoned one would do 72.

bloodstone obviously favors high crit mult/ranges: so any rapier/scimitar/falchion, or frenzy barbs, and in a lesser sense kensai 3.

what you should really look at is whether or not he difference in crit damage over comes the damage every hit.

it can be a 3 damage difference (or 2, not 2.5) on crits, so 36 damage more on crits for the stone over the litany, but the litany will do 17x3 over the course of regular hits (51 damage) 15 in the books favor

the double str bracket gives more damage by itself.

the lesser bracket has the bloodstone doing 48 more on crits, minus the 34 the book does over regular hits. 14 in the stone's favor


classes and weapons with less critical power will change the ratio to more in the litany's favor. This is also completely ignoring the fact that you can get seeker on other slots, the litany cannot be reproduced.

mentau+litany does more on regular hits AND more on crits

an SoS, or in particular an eSoS has the critical power to completely blow the litany out of the water, altho obviously adding in more equip slots is even better



this also all ignores the bonus of having a higher to hit in epic content, which can be quite valuable for most classes on certain mobs.

[blitzschlag]

it can be a 3 damage difference (or 2, not 2.5) on crits

i beg to differ here. we are talking of averaged values here. so if you take 100 crits there are 50 where the difference is 3 and 50 where it is 2. averaged this is 2.5. it does not matter here if the game system can/does directly work with floating numbers

[LawstCawz]

i beg to differ here. we are talking of averaged values here. so if you take 100 crits there are 50 where the difference is 3 and 50 where it is 2. averaged this is 2.5. it does not matter here if the game system can/does directly work with floating numbers

An average value is a useless and incorrect metric in this situation. Average what? You'd have to calc for every class and then average those values. Even then, it would be meaningless. Calc by the situation.

[Kintro]

Suffice to say it's complicated and can vary greatly depending on build and situational benefits. I would, however, pick the LoTD because:


you can get seeker on other slots, the litany cannot be reproduced.

mentau+litany does more on regular hits AND more on crits



Aswell as the +0-2 to-hit (depending on alignment and str) and potentially more hitpoints, will save, reflex save, Intimidate and/or UMD.

[LawstCawz]

Suffice to say it's complicated and can vary greatly depending on build and situational benefits. I would, however, pick the LoTD because:



Aswell as the +0-2 to-hit and potentially more hitpoints, will save, reflex save, Intimidate and/or UMD.

Ditto. Litany+mentau/chain > bloodstone. No need to choose lotd or seeker. Get both.

[Krag]

OP, can you please give us more information on your build?

16/2/2 Drow Warchanter specced for dualwielding piercing weapons.

Have: LotD, Bloodstone, Marilith Chain, Tharne's Goggles

I am going to reincarnate into melee class but have not yet decided which one. Probably all of them to get completionist.

[Shade]

I use Redscale + Mentau + LoTD + Epic Bracers for general max dps where fire dmg works.. Which is actually pretty rarely, I tend to skip the bracers and wear leviks for the healing amp more often.. only go full dps when things are relatively easy on the healers.
I swap in epic marilith chain for when fire doesn't work.
I swap in healing amp 10/20/destruct DT armor for when I want maximum healing amp or maximum attack bonuses.
I swap in heal amp 10/crushing wave guard/leviks + levik bracers for when I want maximum tanking mode.. Giving me both max healing amp and some extra agro generation. Very rarely use this setup tho since agro isn't an issue.

I also swap in the VoD bracers occasonally for heavy fire dmg areas, or just some extra guard dmg when I always have agro anyways.

Only other thing I skimp on in terms of max DPS is ToD Sets. I use generally berserker + shintao.. Because I like the extra strength to the stun DC. While ravager set is actually slightly better dps.

For THF Barb/Ftr LoTD should always be better. As unless you have an illegal enhancement setup, you can always respec your str/power rage enhnacement to fix a odd str mod.

Tho it is really difficult to get them, so im not super worried about getting them for mt alts.. Who still use bloodstones for now.

[lolwatboomer]

one thing that I wanted to point out is that if you happen to have 8 base in the other stats (dex, int, wiz, or cha), throw on +2 tomes, and then lotd, it'll allow you to use silver flame pots without rendering you helpless.

silver flame pots will hit you for a -10 penalty in all your abilities, so having 11 in your "dump" stats is also nice :)