Dwarven Axe Warchanter spec

[Rhianni]

After reading through several other threads for ideas I decided upon trying my own take on the warchanter.
Main difference (from others I have seen) is that I went a bit more for casting.
My goal is to be able to solo, group, and raid well enough to be usefull. Obviously not all can be done perfectly.

EDIT: After getting good feedback my CHA wont cut it for end game CC casting so I am redoing it. But I didnt want to clutter the boards with a seperate thread.
I guess it turned out much like many other warchanters presumably since its one of the better ways to go.

The question remains 2 barbarian or 2 rogue. I have monk available to me so perhaps can get evasion from there.

Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter / 2 Barbarian / 16 Bard)
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 560

BAB: 16/16/21/2626
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 13
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 16 19
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 14
Bluff 1 3
Concentration 7 27
Diplomacy 1 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 5 26
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 1 3
Jump 3 13
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 5 21
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 3 5
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 5 26

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Bard)

Level 5 (Bard)

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 7 (Bard)

Level 8 (Bard)

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Bard)

Level 11 (Bard)

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 13 (Bard)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 16 (Bard)

Level 17 (Bard)

Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell

Level 19 (Bard)

Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhanccement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II

[BoBoDaClown]

The cha won't be enough, plus you have already splashed fighter levels, so you won't be landing anything in terms of CC (apart from OID and fascinate of cours), so feel free to pick up rogue levels/drop cha further,

[jsaving]

Your charisma will be way too low to land anything at endgame. In fact, it's really too low even to land much at midgame. You'll still have irresistable dance, but that will be about it in the way of offensive crowd control spells (except at very low levels where hypno and resistable dance will land with reasonable frequency).

A key difference between DDO and pen-and-paper D&D is that boss monsters here are immune to a lot of nondamaging effects. In other words: at the exact moment you'd most like your nondamaging spells to work, they falter. This causes builds in DDO to be more DPS-oriented than they otherwise would be, which in turn makes the warchanter's damage song more attractive to parties than *it* otherwise would be.

If you're not worried that you might eventually want to take warchanter III (or if you have the cash to respec on demand), you could certainly tacking 2 rogue levels on to your build, though that's a choice you would ideally make when creating your character. If you wanted to multiclass more extensively, you could consider bard14/fighter6 or even bard12/fighter6/rogue2, upping your melee capabilities at the expense of spellcasting.

[Rhianni]

Thanks for the replies guys. I had a feeling the CHA was too low. Good to know about end game content too and non damage effects. That was what i was guessing too. In an MMO environment its had to make a fun and challenging raid boss that gets CCed and stands there.

One last question.... whats warchanter III? I see the warchanter prestige enchantment but I am not seeing any 3 versions of it

[Valindria]

It's not out. Bards only have the 1st tier available.

[rimble]

Since your offensive spell casting is weak anyways, consider stopping at Bard 14. You'll have just as good of an Inspire Courage as you would as Bard 18. Your spell durations will be slightly shorter, and you won't have 6th level spells, but you could pick up some more Fighter goodness (Kensai I), or expand into a Roguely role too. I like the Dwarf Warchanter as a buffer/meleer, dump that Cha! Go Ranger and get Tempest? hehehe, that'd be interesting: Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, WF: Slashing/Power Attack, GTWF...that leaves one Feat for Toughness or Extend...hmmmm...

[Bilger]

14-16 is a good place if warchanter to stop if not going pure. When they come out with warchanter 3 then a reincarnation may be in order depending on how good the pre is.

Reasons
14 gets another plus to songs and can go 6 fighter and get kensai 1, more feats, and hp.( or any other class or class split thats just an example)

15 gets you inspired heroics which ac builds and end game tanks will love ya for

16 gets you lvl 6 spells like cure mod, irresistible dance and such.

That is what I recommend atm at least until we know what the final warchanter 3 is which wouldn't hold my breath for.

As far as char goes if warchanter put enough to cast spells and call it good +2 tome and +6 item with 12 char which I usually put will get enough sp and bonuses for fascinate, umd and such.

[jsaving]

Whenever you are going to multiclass, you need to ask yourself exactly what you will lose from so doing. In your case, going 14/6 instead of 18/2 would mean losing Otto's Irresistible Dance, and with it your ability to use spell points for crowd control. There are other downsides as well, including fewer spell points and a lower caster level, but for a warchanter I think Otto's is the most significant loss.

It's also a good idea to ask yourself exactly which shortcomings you hope to address by multiclassing. For a warchanter, I think there are three somewhat interrelated problem areas: survivability, weapon damage output, and a shortage of feat slots. Bard/fighter addresses the latter two and slightly boosts your survivability as well. Bard/rogue really helps with survivability and slightly increases your weapon damage output as well (via the haste boost). Bard/ranger actually costs you a feat slot overall (if you are going for tempest) but provides a nice boost to DPS.

Of these three options, I find bard/ranger to be the least compelling, because better survivability and several bonus feat slots are -- in my opinion at least -- more important to a warchanter than the amped-up melee DPS that could be gained with a ranger splash. But going 14bard/6ranger is a perfectly viable build if you want to go that route.

[Aerendil]

Whenever you are going to multiclass, you need to ask yourself exactly what you will lose from so doing. In your case, going 14/6 instead of 18/2 would mean losing Otto's Irresistible Dance, and with it your ability to use spell points for crowd control. There are other downsides as well, including fewer spell points and a lower caster level, but for a warchanter I think Otto's is the most significant loss.

Which is why the Axesinger build is so popular.
16/2/2. Evasion, extra feats, SA damage, and still maintain 6th level spells (slightly weak spell penetration however).

[Rhianni]

jsaving: those are great questions to ask and I am working through them now.


Which is why the Axesinger build is so popular.
16/2/2. Evasion, extra feats, SA damage, and still maintain 6th level spells (slightly weak spell penetration however).


Yeah thats what I am really leaning towards.
16 bard/2 fighter/ 2barbarian seems to be winning out. The 2 fighter feats are really needed imo.
I was considering 2 rogue instead of the barbarian levels but I already have a cleric/rogue and the playstyles would have been very similar that, to me at least, they would feel too similar. Though the evasion and extra SA damage sure is nice.

[DreamSlinger]

I have monk available to me so perhaps can get evasion from there.


Nope. Taking Monk levels isn't an option.

Bards and Barbarians need to be non-lawful. Monks and Paladins need to be lawful.

Rogue is the only way for for a Bard to get evasion with a splash.

[Humperdink]

Even though you won't be taking 2 levels of rogue, with a 16 base dexterity you can still get a reasonable reflex save after you add on a +6 dex item, Greater Heroism, Voice of the Master, a +4 resistance item, and Haste. This will mean you will generally make your saving throw and cut incoming damage by half. Use the UMD skill to cast scrolls of Protection from Elements and Fire/Cold Shield to protect yourself from the remaining damage, assuming it is elemental in nature. That incoming 250 point fireball will quickly become only a few points of damage.

[sly_1]

I don't see what taking barb does over rogue. barb = 12 extra hp, a con enhancement, and rage 1/day for a very short duration (with annoying fatigue right after).

Rogue = evasion wich will allow you to avoid countless thousands of hps worth of dmg from traps, aoe spells etc. you will avoid vastly more hp dmg than the 12 you are giving up not going barb. Losing the little 1/day rage is probably a good thing, that is such a short duration and small bump to dmg that it's not going to make or break any single battle. losing the con enhancement is the only real sacrifice in going rogue, but again, it's better to not take damage in the 1st place than it is to have more hp but take more damage.