arcane archer slayer arrows - turbine pigeonholing?

[RobbinB]

So one of the problems with the PrE system in general versus the PrC system of PnP is that it reduces build diversity - throw in the level 6/12/18 I/II/III PrE advancement and the level 20 capstone and it's no wonder there's not many interesting non-gimped builds out there.

For ranged combat, the problem seems even more extreme. Its hard to ignore the ranger capstone for anyone wanting to get serious about ranged combat. And with the deepwoods sniper prestige currently sucking, that pretty much leaves arcane archer.

So I think its great that Turbine introduced some new arrow types for arcane archers. And heck, who doesn't like seeing a 500 damage number pop. Unfortunately, the way it was instituted is 100% cookie-cutter.

With the slayer arrows being so much better than everything else in all but a few cases, 99% of arcane archers are going to be taking them. But there is only one path to get them, which involves taking all the summoned arrows up to +5 and all the other imbue types to open up the slayers. Zero build diversity, and almost zero reason to ever use the acid or explosive imbues.

Suggested change:
Create 4 separate enhancement pathways of imbue arrows - force, acid, fire, and dark. Make each pathway is independent and multitiered and only require the lower tier of that pathway and not require the +2 to +5 summoned enhancements, those would be separate and optional.
Force
tier 1 - 1d6 force plus ghost touch (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 force on crits (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 2d6 additional damage on natural 20 (1 ap)

Acid
tier 1 - 1d6 acid plus melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d10 acid on crit plus enhanced melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 acid on natural 20 (1 ap)
tier 4 - add additional effect (eg. armor destruction) (1 ap)

Fire
tier 1 - 1d6 fire (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d10 fire on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add area of effect fireball (1d6 x char level) on natural 20 (2 ap)

Dark
tier 1 - 1d6 negative energy damage (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 additional negative energy damage on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 additional negative energy damage on natural 20 plus "nightmare" will save (dc char level +10) or 100-600 additional (piercing?) damage (2 ap)

Fear arrows - i think these kinda suck but they might need to be added somewhere, either separately or into darkness path somehow (they seem as much of a nuisance as a help)

This would create different pathways that all have situational uses, no path being absolutely stronger than another. AP costs would mean you would likely only take a couple of paths, thereby adding diversity to arcane archer builds. Slayer arrows (dark path) would be given a slight nerf, but they actually seem overpowered currently ([braces for flamefest]).

I really think having balanced but hard choices in character building is a compelling part of rpg-style games. Having enhancements that everyone will take or needs to take (or items like 100% fort which are worn by everyone) are boring. Currently there really isn't any choice for arcane archers - spend the ap to get the slayer arrows, then activate that for 95% of the game's content...snooze.

[Tyrande]

[...]

Suggested change:
Create 4 separate enhancement pathways of imbue arrows - force, acid, fire, and dark. Make each pathway is independent and multitiered and only require the lower tier of that pathway and not require the +2 to +5 summoned enhancements, those would be separate and optional.
Force
tier 1 - 1d6 force plus ghost touch (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 force on crits (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 2d6 additional damage on natural 20 (1 ap)

Acid
tier 1 - 1d6 acid plus melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d10 acid on crit plus enhanced melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 acid on natural 20 (1 ap)
tier 4 - add additional effect (eg. armor destruction) (1 ap)

Fire
tier 1 - 1d6 fire (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d10 fire on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add area of effect fireball (1d6 x char level) on natural 20 (2 ap)

Dark
tier 1 - 1d6 negative energy damage (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 additional negative energy damage on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 additional negative energy damage on natural 20 plus "nightmare" will save (dc char level +10) or 100-600 additional (piercing?) damage (2 ap)


Your force, fire, and acid are still much weaker than dark. a 100-600 additional damage is still so much better than 4d6 or 2d10. I think the reason for the slayer arrow to be requiring +5 is because in D&D, the slayer arrow feat requires AA level 10. Granting force, fire and acid 100-600 additional damage on a natural 20 is probably overpowered; and granting access to slayer arrows with only 4AP is probably overpowered too. In theory, I could have a 20th elf Kensai III fighter throwing slayer arrows better than a 20th ranger taking all AA enhancements.

The 500 damage is attempting balance against the dark monk 500 damage "Touch of Death" (this is pretty much at will when there is 50 ki) and TWF with dual lightning II weapons (each weapon on 2% chance of lightning strike, ~600damage each)



Fear arrows - i think these kinda suck but they might need to be added somewhere, either separately or into darkness path somehow (they seem as much of a nuisance as a help)


Fear arrows are useful when you solo or you have a party of 5 archers and a cleric.



This would create different pathways that all have situational uses, no path being absolutely stronger than another. AP costs would mean you would likely only take a couple of paths, thereby adding diversity to arcane archer builds. Slayer arrows (dark path) would be given a slight nerf, but they actually seem overpowered currently ([braces for flamefest]).

[...].

Well, they could have increased the APs for each type of arrow and but no summoned arrows +5 requirement and increased the natural 20 damage of each type of arrow.
Slayer arrows were put in because the archery combat style was very weak and the rate of fire very low. I do not think it is overpowered even right now.

Just look at high end raids, VOD, Shroud, ToD or epic quests. How often do you see AAs in there?
If you do see one in a blue moon, they are probably not even dominating DPS in there.

[AylinIsAwesome]

This would create different pathways that all have situational uses, no path being absolutely stronger than another. AP costs would mean you would likely only take a couple of paths, thereby adding diversity to arcane archer builds. Slayer arrows (dark path) would be given a slight nerf, but they actually seem overpowered currently ([braces for flamefest]).

Personally, I don't think Slaying Arrows need a nerf. Since melee is still way above Ranged in terms of better named weapons (Epic Chaos Blade and Epic Sword of Shadows), faster attack speed and stat-point requirements (17 DEX for a melee is all you need). Anything that gives ranged a boost compared to that is sorely needed in my opinion.

[RobbinB]

Your force, fire, and acid are still much weaker than dark. a 100-600 additional damage is still so much better than 4d6 or 2d10.

But not nearly as unbalanced as they are currently. 100-600 damage is 350 avg (envisoning 1d6x100) against the current 500 flat, and that's when the saving throw is failed (currently no saving throw). And I proposed that the force line have the third tier making it more powerful then it is currently is. So the current gap would be narrowed. (Force and dark paths would be approximately balanced because the dark path does more damage overall, but the force costs less ap, is useful against more mobs overall, and provides ghost touch). Also, you could take both paths for about 7ap, which is about what it currently costs to get up to slayers currently (excluding the 4 ap for +2 to +5 summonings). You would then have to just pay more ap if you wanted acid and fire arrows, or conjure +2 or higher.



I think the reason for the slayer arrow to be requiring +5 is because in D&D, the slayer arrow feat requires AA level 10. Granting force, fire and acid 100-600 additional damage on a natural 20 is probably overpowered; and granting access to slayer arrows with only 4AP is probably overpowered too. In theory, I could have a 20th elf Kensai III fighter throwing slayer arrows better than a 20th ranger taking all AA enhancements.

Assuming that having the separate pathways is a valid and reasonable option, then sure we could quibble about what the ap costs should be and what the damages should be. The ones I posted are just for example. Its the relative balancing of one path's strengths/weaknesses that's important:
Force path - lowest damage but applies to most mobs
Dark path - best overall damage (but also highly variable and save-dependent, no good versus undead)
Acid path - intermediate damage, intermediate range of mobs affected/immune, applies useful secondary effect (and not quite so useful DOT effect)
Fire path - highest damage against cold-based mobs, intermediate damage against many other mobs, more mobs resistant/immune to it than any other

The point is that each path would have advantages and disadvantages, and more importantly, different players would rank each path differently according to their personal playstyles. Different players would also assess whether or not the ap cost of each path justifies purchasing multiple paths or sticking with only one or two.

Contrast that with the current system....all arcane archers have the exact same ap expended and all are pretty much using slaying arrows, except against undead. (And I'm not sure I can even think of a valid use of the acid arrows - that's plain wrong).



The 500 damage is attempting balance against the dark monk 500 damage "Touch of Death" (this is pretty much at will when there is 50 ki) and TWF with dual lightning II weapons (each weapon on 2% chance of lightning strike, ~600damage each)
I can see where the numbers come from, but this doesn't make it right. Monks using touch of death lose out on light path and have ki cost, and rangers can also use a ls bow. Besides, my post really wasn't about dps balance anyway. I think with or without the 500 point slayers some balancing and retooling of ranged combat for multiple classes/prestige paths is still in order. But the flat out 500 slayer with the current setup, while an improvement over nothing at all, is not the best way to do it because of the pigeonholing aspect.



Fear arrows are useful when you solo or you have a party of 5 archers and a cleric.

If you had 5 archers why wouldn't you all just use slayer arrows? Everything would pretty much die before it reached you. Maybe the fear arrows could be valuable in some sort of epic content. Maybe in solo, but again I'd rather have slayers. Personally, I don't think I'd use them, but I can see some people might, so they should be available somehow. I'd say incorporate them as a tier in the dark path, but having mobs run away while you are trying to slay them would likely just be annoying



Well, they could have increased the APs for each type of arrow and but no summoned arrows +5 requirement and increased the natural 20 damage of each type of arrow.
Slayer arrows were put in because the archery combat style was very weak and the rate of fire very low. I do not think it is overpowered even right now.

Just look at high end raids, VOD, Shroud, ToD or epic quests. How often do you see AAs in there?
If you do see one in a blue moon, they are probably not even dominating DPS in there.

At very least they could delink the summoned arrows requirement and add damage or additional properties to the acid/fire arrows to give me a reason to use them (currently there is almost no mob that justifies their use).

As far as current builds seen in raids, even if the slayer archers were changed to 1000 damage it would take some time to see the shift in the build base. (I'm not going to stop playing my double-TR'ed monk and roll an arcane archer just cuz I'm being outkilled - like that's not already the case). Besides, range has a variety of problems caused by the range/melee dynamic discussed ad nauseum in other posts, which helps account for the low incidence of ranging observed in most raids.

[RobbinB]

Personally, I don't think Slaying Arrows need a nerf. Since melee is still way above Ranged in terms of better named weapons (Epic Chaos Blade and Epic Sword of Shadows), faster attack speed and stat-point requirements (17 DEX for a melee is all you need). Anything that gives ranged a boost compared to that is sorely needed in my opinion.

Ranged did definitely need a boost which the slayer arrows did give. And i don't believe the slayer arrows necessarily have to be nerfed, I just think they are slightly overpowered all things considered. Maybe not on EPIC, but EPIC dps in general hinges on application of stun and other effects that allow sneak and/or critical hits. And EPIC chaos blade and SOS stats just make me ask why they cheaped out on Epic bow weapons.

[RobbinB]

I had an additional thought about having the main pathways as described in the post with a basic 3 tier enhancement (increasing ap cost) with corresponding damage setup (regular, burst, blast aka greensteel). Each pathway would be a stance activated (non-dispellable) with no or minimal mana cost as it was for the force arrows prior to the most recent changes. The third tier of enhancement could come with special spell arrows for the corresponding path that are hotkeyed like a spell and have a mana cost and countdown timer. The special arrow for the fire path could be the AOE fireball, for the acid path it could be a combined melf's / AC destruction arrow, and the dark path could have 2 special arrows, the terror (fear spell, low or minimal mana cost) and nightmare (save or take huge damage, higher mana cost). The force path carries the ghost touch property so it doesn't need a special arrow (but it could be given one).

I especially like how this plays out for the currently underwhelming acid arrows, since the special arrow would be more useful for boss types and wouldn't need to be spammed. Again, having all pathways would cost a lot of ap, so each player would need to decide which pathway(s) they really want.

[Cyr]

/not signed

While I commend the idea of making the other paths more viable to actually use, it would be a major mistake to even slightly nerf the slaying arrows to accomplish this. Your suggestion would be a fairly major nerf to dps with a 150 average loss before the saving throw is even considered.

Ranged is still behind on dps.

I would prefer that the other paths gain a much larger on crit damage effect based upon crit multiplier on higher tiers beyond what is needed for slaying arrows. That would provide a viable option for epic, non epic, and for non ranger AA's.

[Ystradmynach]

I think just about every PrE is cookie cutter, generally the idea I think is to have a wide selection of PRE's to choose from to add the diversity to characters. And for that matter, since AA is a racial PrE, any elf can pick it up. Thus making AA actually one of more diverse PrE's out there, as the number of AA Kensai, AA bards and AA bowbarians can attest to.

Anyway, while having multiple lines for AA would be nice, it isn't something I expect Turbine to work on any time soon. I'd rather see them actually finish the PrE's that they already planned first, especially the deepwoods sniper. I'd also like to see some sort of halfling throwing PrE as well (I know I've seen this in a splatbook), but that doesn't even appear to be on the drawing board unfortunately.

Also another thing to point out is that there is still only one tier of AA. Assuming that every PrE is suppose to be three tiers, that means that AA is technically still unfinished even though it is still quite useful as it stands (although not without areas that can use improvement though). I'd expect the other two tiers of AA to add one shot spells on timers since tier 1 had true strike, maybe something like firewall or a meteor swarm.

[Tyrande]

[...]
Also another thing to point out is that there is still only one tier of AA. Assuming that every PrE is suppose to be three tiers, that means that AA is technically still unfinished even though it is still quite useful as it stands (although not without areas that can use improvement though). I'd expect the other two tiers of AA to add one shot spells on timers since tier 1 had true strike, maybe something like firewall or a meteor swarm.

Not sure where you are going with Firewall or Meteor Swarm, but those spells are the signature spells of arcane casters; including acid fog on epic; since firewall and acid fog are the most spell points saving DPS wise on epic. Firewall and Meteor Swarm cost spell points to cast, 25 and 50, for non extended and non-maximized empowered. Before they allowed the Arcane Archers to be able to use those spells, there should finish the wizard and sorcerer prestige enhancements to make certain the arcane casters have more spells, feats and variations through energy substitution and/or energy admixture. Otherwise, why play an arcane caster when AAs can do the same thing with little or no spell points cost. AAs can already do slayer arrows indefinitely without spell points. Let's test the waters first before adding more? Make sense?

[maddmatt70]

The reason why the slayer arrow is so much more powerful then the other tiers is the devs are afraid of making archers overpowered at low levels. The melee swing speed and number of attacks takes a number of levels to get up there.

Edit: that being said archers need improvements I have been playing my archer on epic dungeon quests and she is just really inconsistant despite having great gear. On von3 epic she does well, but on the other quests it varies from one day to the next. She can not stun when she shoots either and earth grab is not that good so no really substitue for a melee with a warhammer or maul.

[Ystradmynach]

Not sure where you are going with Firewall or Meteor Swarm, but those spells are the signature spells of arcane casters; including acid fog on epic; since firewall and acid fog are the most spell points saving DPS wise on epic. Firewall and Meteor Swarm cost spell points to cast, 25 and 50, for non extended and non-maximized empowered. Before they allowed the Arcane Archers to be able to use those spells, there should finish the wizard and sorcerer prestige enhancements to make certain the arcane casters have more spells, feats and variations through energy substitution and/or energy admixture. Otherwise, why play an arcane caster when AAs can do the same thing with little or no spell points cost. AAs can already do slayer arrows indefinitely without spell points. Let's test the waters first before adding more? Make sense?

Those were just examples off the top of my head, and while I suppose meteor swarm might be a little much,since it is a ninth level spell, firewall isn't all that impressive without all the wizard enhancements and feats to make the spell do real damage. In fact Pale Masters can already summon minions who can cast firewall, and they are still considered mediocre.

The point is merely that the other tiers of AA shouldn't be underwhelming like true strike is. In fact I think I would prefer spells that would hinder or slow opponents like ice storm or power word blind over direct damage anyway.

I also already said that I wanted Turbine to finish up the PrE's, which would include wizard and sorceror PrE, but even without those PrE's, I don't see how an AA could possibly take the place of real arcane casters.

[RobbinB]

/not signed

While I commend the idea of making the other paths more viable to actually use, it would be a major mistake to even slightly nerf the slaying arrows to accomplish this. Your suggestion would be a fairly major nerf to dps with a 150 average loss before the saving throw is even considered.



I was suggesting not petitioning, so you don't need to sign :)

The major point of my op was to make all the paths more viable. I personally believe that the slayer arrows are overpowered on a number of fronts - compared to the other arrows available, compared to other ways of getting dps from ranged. My suggestion to nerf slayer arrows is based on that and recognizes that ranged combat in general needs some adjustment. But even just changing the 500 flat to 100-800 (450 average) and leaving things as is would be more in the spirit of dungeons and dragons (the whim of the roll). Regardless of what the slayer arrow damage is, and even if all the arrows and ap costs and pre-requisites don't change, there needs to be some reason to occasionally choose the other arrows besides slayers. Force arrows are weak but they are a good choice against undead (especially incorporeal), so that's ok. Explosive arrows have only one purpose I can see, the cold-based undead that would take double damage from fire. As I've stated, I can't see any use for the acid arrows, and there should never be any skill/feat/item in the game that has no utility.


/
Ranged is still behind on dps.

I would prefer that the other paths gain a much larger on crit damage effect based upon crit multiplier on higher tiers beyond what is needed for slaying arrows. That would provide a viable option for epic, non epic, and for non ranger AA's.

If ranged is behind on dps then adding damage exclusively to arcane archer builds isn't a solution, since solutions need to apply to ranging in general. Again, the main point of my op was about the different arrows and how only the best arrow is used pretty much, and why this pigeonholes all arcane archers. Once you acknowledge this fact, some solution is in order, mine was just one suggestion.

Assuming I'm the head honcho at Turbine, and I decide that I want there to be viable uses for acid and explosive arrows but I do not want to change the ap costs and prerequisites in any way, then yes my only choices are to add damage to those arrows or add special properties to them, or both. I favor going the extra properties route, because when you just add more damage you end up with dps-inflation and the number crunchers will inevitably just prove which arrow type is highest dps and therefore will get used 99% of the time.


/
I would prefer that the other paths gain a much larger on crit damage effect based upon crit multiplier on higher tiers beyond what is needed for slaying arrows. That would provide a viable option for epic, non epic, and for non ranger AA's.

I'm not entirely following what you mean to say here. With respect to non-ranger AA's (ie elves), at level 20 they have access to all arrows. So whatever is best for ranger AA's will also be best for them too.

With respect to bigger damages on higher tiers beyond that of slayers, are you saying for example that the acid arrows have a better version that becomes available once you have purchased the slayer enhancement? I don't see how this would help since either this upgrade would be better than slayers or it wouldn't be better. If better, it just becomes the new slayer that everyone has to spend the same ap cost for and all use for 90+ percent of content. If it isn't better, than nothing changes, everyone still keeps using slayers. The only way such an upgrade would be valuable would be if the upgrade wasn't strictly about damage. For example, an acid arrow could be upgraded at that point with armor destruction and a very significant melf's effect, which would make it really good for bosses and maybe some EPIC content, but still make slayers better for trash mobs. So now different arrows would become valuable in different scenarios, which is the kind of thing I'm hoping for.

[Ystradmynach]

Force arrows are weak but they are a good choice against undead (especially incorporeal), so that's ok. Explosive arrows have only one purpose I can see, the cold-based undead that would take double damage from fire. As I've stated, I can't see any use for the acid arrows, and there should never be any skill/feat/item in the game that has no utility.

What are you talking about? Acid arrows are the best damage dealing imbue in the game until slayer arrows come along. They do damage over time, so that one hit will keep doing d6 acid damage until melf's acid arrow wears off.

[maximus123123]

archery in DDO is dead.

[maximus123123]

Now go build your **** WF barb

[dunklezhan]

What are you talking about? Acid arrows are the best damage dealing imbue in the game until slayer arrows come along. They do damage over time, so that one hit will keep doing d6 acid damage until melf's acid arrow wears off.

This point is I think key. End game is not the be all and end all, and acid are excellent bang for the buck because of the additional DoT. I don't think the idea of entirely different paths is wrong (it works well-ish for monks), but the idea that 'why would anyone use acid when slaying arrows are available' just completley ignores the ten or so levels between being able to get acid arrows (and the others) and being able to get slayers.

Just add 'at end game' somewhere in the original post and it will all make sense again, but as it is, I hate it when all discussions of optimisation, PrEs and so on focus entirely on end game and ignore the other 20 levels, especially now TR is available for those that don't want to take part in the end game grind. Now, more than ever, the abilities available as you level are important.

In summary - I do like your proposal, I don't want my criticism of your basic premise to detract from that, and anything that boosts/fixes ranged or makes it more attractive as a tactic and weapon choice is just fine with me. Just please don't forget about the levelling process in your hunt for an end game viable PrE.

[maximus123123]

And don't forget your GS Min II greataxe...talk about lack of variety in the game...this is what it's come to

[RobbinB]

What are you talking about? Acid arrows are the best damage dealing imbue in the game until slayer arrows come along. They do damage over time, so that one hit will keep doing d6 acid damage until melf's acid arrow wears off.

Well I'm glad there's at least someone who sees some value in acid arrows, but from my standpoint I can't share your enthusiasm.

force arrows: available at ranger 6
acid arrows: available at ranger 9
force burst arrows: available at ranger 15

I have no idea how often the melf's effect procs (every 2 secs?) and for what duration, but let's be honest the damage you are talking about is meagre. Fighting a mob sensitive to both force and acid, the force burst arrows have to at least come close (yes the burst is only on crit, but even with the current pitiful ranged speed it is much better than 1 arrow every 2 seconds). Factor in that almost no mobs are resistant/immune to force and the incorporeal advantage, I personally would choose the force burst over the acid in a hearbeat. That limits the potential usefulness of acid arrows from levels 9-18 (when slayers are available) down to levels 9-15. And even comparing just force against acid I'll take the force because it works against pretty much everything - the small damage added by the melf's effect is not worth it unless all mobs in a particular area are corporeal and not acid resistant/immune.
(And switching between force and acid arrows to "optimize" dps is a waste of time/mana given the small amount of dps difference.)

[RobbinB]

This point is I think key. End game is not the be all and end all, and acid are excellent bang for the buck because of the additional DoT. I don't think the idea of entirely different paths is wrong (it works well-ish for monks), but the idea that 'why would anyone use acid when slaying arrows are available' just completley ignores the ten or so levels between being able to get acid arrows (and the others) and being able to get slayers.

Just add 'at end game' somewhere in the original post and it will all make sense again, but as it is, I hate it when all discussions of optimisation, PrEs and so on focus entirely on end game and ignore the other 20 levels, especially now TR is available for those that don't want to take part in the end game grind. Now, more than ever, the abilities available as you level are important.

In summary - I do like your proposal, I don't want my criticism of your basic premise to detract from that, and anything that boosts/fixes ranged or makes it more attractive as a tactic and weapon choice is just fine with me. Just please don't forget about the levelling process in your hunt for an end game viable PrE.

Well in fairness I was sort of discussing the endgame in my criticism (or at least level 18 when rangers get slayers). But even if the level cap was 9 and I was just making the comparison between acid and force arrows, I would still call acid arrows all but useless (and many other forumites did when the acid arrows were announced as up-and-coming by Tolero). Bottom line is the d6 melf's is almost a laughable DOT and doesn't justify the lesser range of mob usefulness. If the level cap was indeed 9 I'd most likely stick with just the force arrows for my arcane archer and spend my 1 ap on another enhancement, that's how lowly I think of the acid arrows.

[Chai]

Well I'm glad there's at least someone who sees some value in acid arrows, but from my standpoint I can't share your enthusiasm.

force arrows: available at ranger 6
acid arrows: available at ranger 9
force burst arrows: available at ranger 15

I have no idea how often the melf's effect procs (every 2 secs?) and for what duration, but let's be honest the damage you are talking about is meagre. Fighting a mob sensitive to both force and acid, the force burst arrows have to at least come close (yes the burst is only on crit, but even with the current pitiful ranged speed it is much better than 1 arrow every 2 seconds). Factor in that almost no mobs are resistant/immune to force and the incorporeal advantage, I personally would choose the force burst over the acid in a hearbeat. That limits the potential usefulness of acid arrows from levels 9-18 (when slayers are available) down to levels 9-15. And even comparing just force against acid I'll take the force because it works against pretty much everything - the small damage added by the melf's effect is not worth it unless all mobs in a particular area are corporeal and not acid resistant/immune.
(And switching between force and acid arrows to "optimize" dps is a waste of time/mana given the small amount of dps difference.)

DPS is such a fickle situational arguement, that there is no real right or wrong answer. I'd apply any logic in this thread, or any other DPS discussion, to a specific situation to determine what I would use.

In this case, it depends on how long the mob is alive. DOT arrows do more damage if the mob stays alive longer. Soloing the vale, I'd go with the acid arrows. In a group of melee rolling a dungeon for flags or xp, I'd go with the force burst.

[Alanim]

For Tier 3 Force, I'd make it bypass displacement/blur, now that could make it pretty useful for those that don't spectral gloves/etc.

[BalanceFx]

Acid arrows are almost always better then force or fire arrows. (Force grant ghost touch so situationally better vrs undead etc) Fire... no... just use acid hehe.

Fear arrows... fantastic for crowd control if you have no better means. It also occasionally procs phantasmal killer... Lots of fun. It also adds its effects to whatever else your using... Got a icy burst paralyzer of pure good... now its an icy burst paralyzer or pure good and fear that occasionally procs pk. Nice!

Once you get slayer arrows... Your gonna love them. You still cant really keep up with melees (In most cases) but you never knew just how little damage you were doing before hehe. Whats funny is that portal in the vale... it has like 1,000,000,000 hps or something. (Well less then the dragons in Mired on elite probably hehe) Anyways... hitting that with many shot and seeing 2-3 500s you notice the health bar barely changes... but you do notice the change. Was hard to see before when most people click autoattack and come back in 2-3 mins to see how its coming along.

But slayer arrows are still victims of dice. You have nights of good rolls and nights of bad rolls... Also timing. Watching 500 pop up on a mob with 2 hps left is quite common.

Its not reliable... but its better then nothing. I would like to see a green steel lit 2 bow with slayer arrows... Should be fairly efficient.

There are times where anyone with improved precise shot will outdamage melees... I cant think of a good quest right now because I have been mostly running vale and shroud... but lets say Gwylans... by the time a melee closes the distance to the pack of mobs WAAAAAAAAAAY over there the ranged character will have already dropped almost all of them. And they did so without the need of zerging ahead or triggering traps or requiring healing or really taking any risk at all. Those situations dont occur much though in practice...

[Alanim]

Fear arrows... fantastic for crowd control if you have no better means. It also occasionally procs phantasmal killer... Lots of fun. It also adds its effects to whatever else your using... Got a icy burst paralyzer of pure good... now its an icy burst paralyzer or pure good and fear that occasionally procs pk. Nice!


We still don't know the save on it, but it seems pretty high, It might even have the same save as your wild empathy, because when it has a VERY high kill chance on most anything I hit, so someone might want to do some testing of it.

[RobbinB]

For Tier 3 Force, I'd make it bypass displacement/blur, now that could make it pretty useful for those that don't spectral gloves/etc.

Not sure but I thought spectral gloves gave you ghost touch on melee attacks only, so the force arrows are still of value even if you have those. The true-seeing effect as an additional third tier effect though is a great suggestion. I definitely think the acid and fire arrows could use some sort of non-dps addition along similar lines, just increasing damage is not the way to go.

[Isolani]

I agree with BalanceFx, acid arrows are better than fire or force most of the time, and it's not because of the DOT damage. Haven't played my AA lately, but I'm pretty sure each time you hit with an acid arrow it does 1d6 + 2d4 acid damage, you get the initial acid damage and the DOT "tick" damage on every arrow hit. There never is any real DOT damage because each arrow overwrites the DOT, only time you see a tick of actual DOT damage is when you miss a shot or two or change targets.

The steady average damage you get from acid arrow beats the burst effect from fire/force even with a high crit range weapon like the silver bow and improved critical. On average, acid adds 8.5 acid damage per hit with any bow, fire/force assuming a 20% crit chance (silver bow + imp. crit) adds an average of 5.7 fire/force damage per hit. If using a standard 5% crit chance bow, acid pulls away even more. When I "upgraded" to fire arrows, I was trying them out thinking "umm, this is supposed to be better?" The only time fire/force is better is if the mob is vulnerable to it or immune to acid.

Explosive arrows were pretty disappointing really, to make them at all useful they should actually explode and do something like a 5d6 AOE fireball effect, then there would be situations where I could use them. Otherwise, the lower level acid arrows are better 99% of the time.

[RobbinB]

DPS is such a fickle situational arguement, that there is no real right or wrong answer. I'd apply any logic in this thread, or any other DPS discussion, to a specific situation to determine what I would use.

In this case, it depends on how long the mob is alive. DOT arrows do more damage if the mob stays alive longer. Soloing the vale, I'd go with the acid arrows. In a group of melee rolling a dungeon for flags or xp, I'd go with the force burst.

I can't argue against the pure math of acid arrows doing more damage than force arrows in the lamannia sections of the vale. However, when I run the vale on my arcane archer I dual WoP the lamannia side and dual banish the Shavarath side, and just pull out my bow for manyshot to kill certain areas (like spider ambush, rares with mob clusters, bats, gnoll plus mephits, etc...). Assuming I were at a level that only has access to force and acid arrows, I would still personally just turn on the force arrows and forget about it (since the devils are immune to acid). I just view the melf's damage as too pitiful to bother, and that would hold even if I stayed with my bow 100% of the time. But maybe I'm just too far removed from a 1st time untwinked 28-pt arcane archer to reach for that d6 in the gutter. :)

[RobbinB]

I agree with BalanceFx, acid arrows are better than fire or force most of the time, and it's not because of the DOT damage. Haven't played my AA lately, but I'm pretty sure each time you hit with an acid arrow it does 1d6 + 2d4 acid damage, you get the initial acid damage and the DOT "tick" damage on every arrow hit. There never is any real DOT damage because each arrow overwrites the DOT, only time you see a tick of actual DOT damage is when you miss a shot or two or change targets.

The steady average damage you get from acid arrow beats the burst effect from fire/force even with a high crit range weapon like the silver bow and improved critical. On average, acid adds 8.5 acid damage per hit with any bow, fire/force assuming a 20% crit chance (silver bow + imp. crit) adds an average of 5.7 fire/force damage per hit. If using a standard 5% crit chance bow, acid pulls away even more. When I "upgraded" to fire arrows, I was trying them out thinking "umm, this is supposed to be better?" The only time fire/force is better is if the mob is vulnerable to it or immune to acid.

Explosive arrows were pretty disappointing really, to make them at all useful they should actually explode and do something like a 5d6 AOE fireball effect, then there would be situations where I could use them. Otherwise, the lower level acid arrows are better 99% of the time.

If you do indeed get a time 0 2d4 melf's effect than this does make them better (can someone verify or refute this please?) Of course, this is mostly just relevant prior to slayer arrows coming available. After slayers, this just means that assuming your claim is correct, you have found one mob that acid arrows are best against: non cold-based undead not resistant or immune to acid (a pretty small list, but hey at least it's something)

And even with the 2d4, I still probably wouldn't bother with them when running the vale pre lvl 18 for example, since its just easier to turn on the force and forget about it.

As for the explosive arrows, yeah they suck, but at least even when slayers are available there is one mob type the fire arrows are best at (cold-based undead). So that's something. And yes explosive arrows should sometimes explode, like duh. A 5d6AOE fireball on every shot would maybe make me use them over slayers in certain other cases, but the on every shot just seems wrong for a fireball explosion. And if on crit or 20 only, then you'd just stick with slayer arrows. So you'd have to pump up the 5d6, lower the slayer damage, or introduce an interesting other effect (burning/immolation, something else?)

Part of my op is that I don't like the idea that each arrow is an "upgrade" as it becomes available. Sure, on average maybe the higher cost/level arrows should do more damage or be overall better, but other arrows should at least maintain situational utility, otherwise the system is just boring.

[Kyrn]

On a side note, the Monk's touch of death seems powerful... only at mid levels. At higher levels it's essentially a 33.33 DPS skill, one which requires charging of Ki (which means either fire stance, using a Ki necklace as opposed to the +2 damage one, or crane animal stance, or not using any other strikes at all). Also note that unlike any other commonly used weapon, handwraps don't come in greensteel or epic options, and unarmed attack has a 20-20/x2 crit range. Essentially, the 500 damage attempts to make up with the naturally higher crit damages of other weapons + str/seeker bonuses. Granted, this does make monks potentially situationally better against enemies with 100% fort, innate damage resistance, and immunity to elements, but that's about it.

EDIT: possible adjustments:
1) Fearsome ability: No longer causes enemies to run, instead staying on their spot (similar to the proposed changes to Turn Undead fear ability)
2) Imbue Slaying Arrows: replace with Imbue Slaying Bow: Bow now counts as +6 enhancement, and gives all shots fired from it Slaying ability. This essentially allows Slaying ability to coexist with other existing arrows/imbues.

[Alanim]

Spectral gloves/ethernal bracers also give benefit to ranged, but that's not WAI so that should/could be fixed which would then make it useful, also I'm pretty sure the acid arrows are also have a burst effect, but that could just be the melfs.

Here are some of my suggestions with some of your suggestions to increase usefulness, hope it doesn't "overpower" them, slayer arrows SHOULD remain the same as they are, this is based mostly on your idea's, just rebalanced along with terror arrows which I added to make them useful de-buffs.

Force
tier 1 - 1d6 force plus ghost touch (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 force on crits (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 additional damage on natural 20, and your arrows bypass Concealment(1 ap)

Acid
tier 1 - 1d6 acid plus melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 acid on crit plus enhanced melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 3d10 acid on natural 20 (1 ap)
tier 4 - add additional effect Destruction, Improved destruction on natural 20(1 ap)

Fire
tier 1 - 1d6 fire (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 3d10 fire on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add area of effect fireball (1d6 x char level) on natural 20 (2 ap)

Dark
I wouldn't touch slaying arrows myself, as the changes would balance it out

Fear arrows
Tier 1 - Shaken on a succesful save, Fear on fail, On natural 20 phantasmal killer
Tier 2 - Improved cursespewing
Tier 3 - "Phantasmal terror" arrows, Fear on failed save, Shaken on succesful save, and on critical hit there is a 30% chance of proccing "Phantasmal terror" -4 to all saves for 30 seconds that stacks with cursespewing.

[BalanceFx]

If you do indeed get a time 0 2d4 melf's effect than this does make them better (can someone verify or refute this please?) Of course, this is mostly just relevant prior to slayer arrows coming available. After slayers, this just means that assuming your claim is correct, you have found one mob that acid arrows are best against: non cold-based undead not resistant or immune to acid (a pretty small list, but hey at least it's something)

And even with the 2d4, I still probably wouldn't bother with them when running the vale pre lvl 18 for example, since its just easier to turn on the force and forget about it.

As for the explosive arrows, yeah they suck, but at least even when slayers are available there is one mob type the fire arrows are best at (cold-based undead). So that's something. And yes explosive arrows should sometimes explode, like duh. A 5d6AOE fireball on every shot would maybe make me use them over slayers in certain other cases, but the on every shot just seems wrong for a fireball explosion. And if on crit or 20 only, then you'd just stick with slayer arrows. So you'd have to pump up the 5d6, lower the slayer damage, or introduce an interesting other effect (burning/immolation, something else?)

Part of my op is that I don't like the idea that each arrow is an "upgrade" as it becomes available. Sure, on average maybe the higher cost/level arrows should do more damage or be overall better, but other arrows should at least maintain situational utility, otherwise the system is just boring.

If you use the acid arrows you basically get 2 acid numbers and then for a short time... maybe 2 or 3 more hits of acid. (Maybe 4) I would have to test it.

Without manyshot: Its not enough to say kill a soul howler in giant hold. (Thats just using a frost, acid bow of pure good with imbue acid) You might kill it but probably not. (Switch to melee and drop it in a few secs hehe)

Same goes for slayer arrow though... you wont kill it till you proc 500. That could take who knows how much time. (Til you roll a 20 me guess) Fear arrows are another story... once they're feared they run away and stop casting for some time... You have a much better chance of killing them that way. (And if you roll a 20 you might PK them too)

Another idea is to get a wand of flame arrow. Create some fire arrows. Then you can get an extra 1d of fire damage. (But you would need a +5 bow or you would lose that damage... going from +5 arrows to flame arrows)

[Isolani]

Yeah, I agree RobbinB, since my post a few minutes ago I have been thinking about AA arrows in general...once you get slayer everything else is virtually useless. Not sure how to fix that. Maybe have the damage of the arrow effects scale with level.

For me, having the explosive arrows do some kind of AE effect is a no brainer, that's what I was thinking they would be when I saw EXPLOSIVE in the name. I just threw 5d6 out there as an example, I'm not sure what would be a balanced amount of damage for them so that they would have situational use over slayer. Force arrows, I dunno, I just use ghost touch melee weapons against incorporeal mobs since they're just going to disappear/reappear right on top of you anyway. Terror arrows should just be redone as stun arrows (5% chance like weighted), then they could serve some purpose. As it is now, all the AP's you spend getting to slayer just end up being fluff for the most part which is ridiculous.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure that is how acid arrows worked when they first came out, might have changed now I haven't played my AA in a month or two. Every time an acid arrow used to hit you would see two acid damage numbers, one is always between 1 and 6, the other between 2 and 8, so I'm assuming 1d6 + 2d4. It was on every hit though, and you hit much faster than the dot tick happens, so I only ever saw dot ticks when I missed or switched targets. Otherwise every hit just keeps overwriting the dot. Obviously, when you get slayer it doesn't matter anymore but acid is definitely the best while leveling up (L9-15 roughly) as very few mobs in orchard/GH are immune to acid and acid arrows are just better damage overall with any bow.

[RobbinB]

On a side note, the Monk's touch of death seems powerful... only at mid levels. At higher levels it's essentially a 33.33 DPS skill, one which requires charging of Ki (which means either fire stance, using a Ki necklace as opposed to the +2 damage one, or crane animal stance, or not using any other strikes at all). Also note that unlike any other commonly used weapon, handwraps don't come in greensteel or epic options, and unarmed attack has a 20-20/x2 crit range. Essentially, the 500 damage attempts to make up with the naturally higher crit damages of other weapons + str/seeker bonuses. Granted, this does make monks potentially situationally better against enemies with 100% fort, innate damage resistance, and immunity to elements, but that's about it.

EDIT: possible adjustments:
1) Fearsome ability: No longer causes enemies to run, instead staying on their spot (similar to the proposed changes to Turn Undead fear ability)
2) Imbue Slaying Arrows: replace with Imbue Slaying Bow: Bow now counts as +6 enhancement, and gives all shots fired from it Slaying ability. This essentially allows Slaying ability to coexist with other existing arrows/imbues.

Change to fearsome would be welcomed.
Imbue slaying bow - great idea for EPIC ranger when EPIC enhancements / levels are introduced. Pre-EPIC it seems to be overpowered or balance-skewed (if dps of ranged is too low, then fix it for all archers, not justs AA's)

[RobbinB]

Spectral gloves/ethernal bracers also give benefit to ranged, but that's not WAI so that should/could be fixed which would then make it useful, also I'm pretty sure the acid arrows are also have a burst effect, but that could just be the melfs.

Here are some of my suggestions with some of your suggestions to increase usefulness, hope it doesn't "overpower" them, slayer arrows SHOULD remain the same as they are, this is based mostly on your idea's, just rebalanced along with terror arrows which I added to make them useful de-buffs.

Force
tier 1 - 1d6 force plus ghost touch (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 force on crits (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 4d6 additional damage on natural 20, and your arrows bypass Concealment(1 ap)

Acid
tier 1 - 1d6 acid plus melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 2d6 acid on crit plus enhanced melph's effect (1 ap)
tier 3 - add 3d10 acid on natural 20 (1 ap)
tier 4 - add additional effect Destruction, Improved destruction on natural 20(1 ap)

Fire
tier 1 - 1d6 fire (1 ap)
tier 2 - add 3d10 fire on crit (1 ap)
tier 3 - add area of effect fireball (1d6 x char level) on natural 20 (2 ap)

Dark
I wouldn't touch slaying arrows myself, as the changes would balance it out

Fear arrows
Tier 1 - Shaken on a succesful save, Fear on fail, On natural 20 phantasmal killer
Tier 2 - Improved cursespewing
Tier 3 - "Phantasmal terror" arrows, Fear on failed save, Shaken on succesful save, and on critical hit there is a 30% chance of proccing "Phantasmal terror" -4 to all saves for 30 seconds that stacks with cursespewing.

OK, I like your minor adjustments to the force/acid/fire paths, I think they are pretty good. (Might need to keep acid arrows to 3 tiers though, wouldn't be overpowered to combine tier 4 with 3 and charge 2 ap).

For dark/fear arrows, I think they should actually be one path. Because fear can be annoying I didn't combine them. But if fear is changed to "stand in place" as has been suggested, then it is perfectly ok. I would therefore adjust the dark path as follows:

Tier 1 - 1d6 negative energy damage, fear on failed save (fear arrows, 1 ap)
Tier 2 - add 2d6 neg energy on crit, fear on failed save, PK on 20 (will save, 10 + char level) (terror arrows, 1 ap)
Tier 3 - add further 2d6 on natural 20, all hits fear on failed save else shaken, improved cursespewing, PK on 20 (nightmare arrows, 2 ap)
(for bosses/red names, failed PK save is equal to 500 damage as current slayer)

Thinking about it, arcane archers imbues should be spell-like effects. The PK fits this, the current 500 static slayer does not. A better move would be to move a slayer-type arrow over to deepwoods sniper (assassinate arrows?). Prior to the recent arcane archer changes, snipers were already the ugly red-headed stepchilds, now they are completely out of whack. Straight added damage to all shots on a natural 20 is more in-line with that PrE anyway.

I'd also like it if the stances weren't completely dispelled by beholders but were instead just temporarily removed by the anti-magic field, but returned once the timer counted down.

[Ystradmynach]

EDIT: possible adjustments:
1) Fearsome ability: No longer causes enemies to run, instead staying on their spot (similar to the proposed changes to Turn Undead fear ability)
2) Imbue Slaying Arrows: replace with Imbue Slaying Bow: Bow now counts as +6 enhancement, and gives all shots fired from it Slaying ability. This essentially allows Slaying ability to coexist with other existing arrows/imbues.

I may be in the minority here, but I actually like the way the fearsome ability currently works. Monsters run away, often through firewalls and blade barriers taking extra damage, all the while being shot by your bow, and then run back through the same obstacles. If the effect caused mobs to stand still, it would just make the effect weaker as the monsters would be in a position to attack you that much sooner after the spell wore off. Sure, melee characters may have to wait an extra ten seconds to kill feared monsters, but it is time that they can spend killing other mobs instead. Personally, I have fearsome armor for my arcane archer, and it makes a huge difference in the amount of time I spend shooting mobs versus the amount of time I have to resort to melee.

The change makes more sense for clerics and turn undead since clerics are unlikely to have the ability to take as big an advantage of fleeing monsters with any significant ranged damage (although they can still run the undead through blade barriers though).

Your idea to imbue slaying bows sounds interesting, either that or enchant a specific stack of arrows with slaying while still having the ability to have another imbue active. It would certainly go a long way to balancing out the use of the imbues without having to build complex lines of AA enhancements that are less likely to happen.

[RobbinB]

I may be in the minority here, but I actually like the way the fearsome ability currently works. Monsters run away, often through firewalls and blade barriers taking extra damage, all the while being shot by your bow, and then run back through the same obstacles. If the effect caused mobs to stand still, it would just make the effect weaker as the monsters would be in a position to attack you that much sooner after the spell wore off. Sure, melee characters may have to wait an extra ten seconds to kill feared monsters, but it is time that they can spend killing other mobs instead. Personally, I have fearsome armor for my arcane archer, and it makes a huge difference in the amount of time I spend shooting mobs versus the amount of time I have to resort to melee.

The change makes more sense for clerics and turn undead since clerics are unlikely to have the ability to take as big an advantage of fleeing monsters with any significant ranged damage (although they can still run the undead through blade barriers though).

Your idea to imbue slaying bows sounds interesting, either that or enchant a specific stack of arrows with slaying while still having the ability to have another imbue active. It would certainly go a long way to balancing out the use of the imbues without having to build complex lines of AA enhancements that are less likely to happen.

Hmm, I've been yelled at for wearing fearsome armor in groups, let alone using fearsome arrows. And if the group is using firewalls and bladebarriers, then I can easily kite them through said spells, whereas I have absolutely no guarantee about which way a feared mob will run (maybe through the firewalls, but maybe not). And if feared mobs are running perpendicular to your direction of fire, then frequently you don't even get a registered shot.

But different strokes for different folks. If enough people wanted the fear arrows to act as is currently, then ok maybe they should remain a separate entity. But that's not to say there's not enough thematic effects that still make a more than worthwhile dark path without the fear: negative energy damage, cursespewing, shaken, etc...

As for the building complex lines part, if such a rework would be too much an onerous coding task for Turbine then I might suggest they have some serious issues to deal with.

[Alanim]

Actually hmmm, lets try this for the fear arrows.

Tier 1 - doom arrows, will save negates.(lower level and kinda useful considering the -2 to saves.)
Tier 2 - Current Terror Arrows
Tier 3 - Petrifying Fear, Target is so scared they are petrified when critically hit, -2 to all saves, will save negates.

Meaning these would make a ranger a casters best friend in end game content. as altogether it'd be a -6 to saves, which helps casters ALOT.

and doom arrows make sense since this is the descrip

A single enemy is filled with a feeling of horrible dread that causes it to become shaken, penalizing all saves, attack rolls, and skill rolls by -2. A successful Will save negates this effect. This is a fear effect.