the pit fiend on the shoud part 5 tor me up

[osirisisis]

With 67 AC and 30/37/24 saves and evasion on normal
normally he rarely does damage to me.
Did they make him harder?

[BlackSteel]

maybe he had some of those w/p rapiers attached to his fingernails

[Nezichiend]

Could've been lag, because I doubt they made him harder.

How many hp do you have?

[sirgog]

With 67 AC, you should be close to untouchable *if he is debuffed*.

Waves of Exhaustion is your friend.

[MrWizard]

1- sure you had your ac up?
2- sure he was hitting you and not spell damage?
3- had poison, fire, deathward, yadda yadda on?

if he acted different that one time, then you did something different and did not notice.

Either that or for the first time he was facing you and aggroed on you. Because I get into the 70s ac and I get him to aggro on me and he hits me..

and did not someone say something was changed with meteor swarm and evasion?

[Lithic]

Two words: Meteor Swarm


A few more words: This spell now does blunt damage, that does not require a roll to hit, and cannot be evasion-ed.

[Xithos]

Two words: Meteor Swarm


A few more words: This spell now does blunt damage, that does not require a roll to hit, and cannot be evasion-ed.

Correct answer. The shroud is more difficult than when it was released for this reason alone; the meteor swarm followed with a melee attack from him tends to kill the less than 300hp crowd on Thelanis before the DPS lagged healthbars even indicate what just happened.

[sirgog]

Correct answer. The shroud is more difficult than when it was released for this reason alone; the meteor swarm followed with a melee attack from him tends to kill the less than 300hp crowd on Thelanis before the DPS lagged healthbars even indicate what just happened.

The moral to this story - if a melee has <300 hp (or <100% fortification), don't invite them.

[Shade]

They never changed him.

It's simply happened because AC is unreliable.

Between grazing hits and auto hits on 20.. He could of simply rolled well everytime to kill you.

It's never a good idea to rely solely on such a ureliable game function.

How people normally beat the shroud is by having multiple people with good dps attack and using mass cure spells. Might wanna try that next time.

[sirgog]

They never changed him.

It's simply happened because AC is unreliable.

Between grazing hits and auto hits on 20.. He could of simply rolled well everytime to kill you.

It's never a good idea to rely solely on such a ureliable game function.

How people normally beat the shroud is by having multiple people with good dps attack and using mass cure spells. Might wanna try that next time.

Harry has been changed significantly since the cap was 16.

He gained Mass Hold Monster (well, he always cast it, but it now works). This is irrelevant in part 4 as you can prebuff with Freedom of Movement - it does occasionally cause problems in part 5 when someone is held immediately after being raised (although solid groups should have no deaths).

Harry also gained from the buff to Meteor Swarm (which was fully evadable once), although it seems that his DBF's have been nerfed to compensate.


An AC in the low 70s is a significant defense against Harry. In a very weak group, the easiest way to a completion is to have an evasive 70+ AC toon hero Harry while someone throws a Heal scroll on them every 20 seconds or so. It'll take ages, but you'll win, whereas the same group won't win if they keep trying the Mass Cure approach.


Also, Mass Cures are no longer the best way to beat the Shroud - Mass Heal is far superior. One Cleric/FvS can keep a group healed to full for about 9 SP per second (normal/hard) or 10 (elite) by just casting quickened, (elite only empowered) Mass Heal every cooldown.

[Shade]

He gained Mass Hold Monster (well, he always cast it, but it now works). This is irrelevant in part 4 as you can prebuff with Freedom of Movement - it does occasionally cause problems in part 5 when someone is held immediately after being raised (although solid groups should have no deaths).

Harry also gained from the buff to Meteor Swarm (which was fully evadable once), although it seems that his DBF's have been nerfed to compensate.
Side effects of bug fixes. Not changes.


easiest way to a completion is to have an evasive 70+ AC toon hero Harry while someone throws a Heal scroll on them every 20 seconds or so. It'll take ages, but you'll win, whereas the same group won't win if they keep trying the Mass Cure approach.
Why are you so hung up on this AC thing? Whats the fun in it? Why do you care? Why do you make up nonsense to defend it? Im sure you fully realsie what you wrote this is quite redicules.. So why write it? Why try to confuse this poor new player? Is it really worth tricking him?

Everyone knows AC is quite worthless in the shroud vs the pitfiend. You get lots of melee to gaterh around and the clerics heal. It's a pretty well known and standard thing that I really can't become to comprehend how anyone would argue.

Hey here's an another even easiery way if you wanna "hero" it: Get anyone who can actaully do some DPS unlike someone who wasted all his focus on AC. The fact taht he has 11 other people healing him I think might keep him alive, regardless of how low AC.




Also, Mass Cures are no longer the best way to beat the Shroud - Mass Heal is far superior. One Cleric/FvS can keep a group healed to full for about 9 SP per second (normal/hard) or 10 (elite) by just casting quickened, (elite only empowered) Mass Heal every cooldown.
Your also too hung up on mass heal. Yea yea mass heal is more effecient, I know all aobut it, my FvS has a Devotion IX item and uses it all the time, but more effecient is not as important of a factor as is critical timing and keeping people alive. If you use an extra 20 mana from doing 2 cure masses instead of heal, mass. but keep that squishier rogue alive.. THe pitfiend dies faster and everyones happier.

Using mass heal is simply too slow and you will lose the squishier tanks.

In a perfect world where every tank had 500+ hp, sure use mass heal. But that's not gonna happen. Squishy melee do run the shroud, and it's better to keep them alive.

Eh really tip to new player:
Bad advice about the shroud is handed out daily.
Good advice exists all over the forum in guides and big threads.. Do a search instead of asking for the daily bad advice from biased players like myself and Sirgog (just know his biased ideas iaresomething I haven't seen happen in the history of the game, while mine is a pretty common way the shroud gets run)

[Bacab]

AC is fine...
just not in epic or the Elite "higher end" content...specifically Amrath.

AC works in VOD and etc...and its not a "waste" of resources...if thats what you want to play.

But since "Meteor Swarm" can not be evaded; your best bet is to survive with HP.

Harry also likes to spin around and practically attack in a 360 degree arc. Unlike Sully, Harry is really tough to "tank and turtle"

Also never neglect Damage Reduction if you are a tank. It is far easier/predictable over AC.

What I think happen was you ate a meteor swarm and your protection from elements was down and failed a delayed blast fireball save. You prolly took close to 300 points of spike damage. If you were the main target of aggression...you probably were not at full HP (between cures).

How did you do in part 5? Also it coulda been the blades in on you at same time.

Side note: was a disco ball up? That causes lag really bad...and you go from full HP...to dead in half a second.

[Danmor]

@ Shade: Sirgog simply said that the changes are due to Bugfixes. How does your statement change that?
A decent 70+ AC is good protection against most of Harry's attacks. That AC isn't the perfect way to build a toon isn't topic of the debate here.
Also I agree that the easiest way (note, not the fastest or the best, but simply the easiest) to complete part 5 is indeed to have a toon with good melee go hero on Harry. Yeah, it's boring. Yeah, it's slow as heck. But it's the easiest way in a _weak_ group.

As for Mass Heal: IF you have enough HP _and_ the lag isn't too bad, Mass Heal is the most reliable way to keep everyone up. Mass Cures are much more expensive in terms of hp/sp.

To the OP: Didn't notice any changes regarding Harry's damage output. It might just have been a lag spike as Bacab said. Maybe the healers were a bit too slow or so lagged out that the heal didn't land. I know it happened to me more than once :(

[mediocresurgeon]

If you have low HP and get hit by meteor swarm, you are going to die no matter what your AC and saves are.

I'd recommend at least 400 hp for any character who tries to melee him.

[vVAnjilaVv]

@ Shade: Sirgog simply said that the changes are due to Bugfixes. How does your statement change that?
A decent 70+ AC is good protection against most of Harry's attacks. That AC isn't the perfect way to build a toon isn't topic of the debate here.
Also I agree that the easiest way (note, not the fastest or the best, but simply the easiest) to complete part 5 is indeed to have a toon with good melee go hero on Harry. Yeah, it's boring. Yeah, it's slow as heck. But it's the easiest way in a _weak_ group.

As for Mass Heal: IF you have enough HP _and_ the lag isn't too bad, Mass Heal is the most reliable way to keep everyone up. Mass Cures are much more expensive in terms of hp/sp.

To the OP: Didn't notice any changes regarding Harry's damage output. It might just have been a lag spike as Bacab said. Maybe the healers were a bit too slow or so lagged out that the heal didn't land. I know it happened to me more than once :(

I agree with mass heals during the main part of the battle, but wouldn't spamming mass cures be the better way to go once the blades are in?
Meaning part 4 of course.

[Danmor]

I agree with mass heals during the main part of the battle, but wouldn't spamming mass cures be the better way to go once the blades are in?
Meaning part 4 of course.

Yeah, when the blades close in some intermittent healing is necessary. I usually back out at that moment and start spamming mass cures on the main sp sponge (i.e. the barb)

[toughguyjoe]

This is mostly the lag monster rearing its ugly head I believe. I hadn't cleric'd shroud in a while, and in part five I had trhee dings, real close together, while I was using Mass Heal, and hitting a mass cure during cool downs. So the heals where really flowing into the group. Reason being: Squishy Melees.

However, I beleive that the Meteor swarm pummeling them combined with some lag delayed my ability to keep them up, so I instatnyl put over voice chat for everyone to pull out and regroup, get the melees up and start it over essentially, so we wouldn't end up with a Mongolian Clusterbang. It worked.

[Xithos]

The moral to this story - if a melee has <300 hp (or <100% fortification), don't invite them.

We take a few of these folks along when I run with guild from time to time in the hopes that they will realize their character might need some tweaking when they are the only ones to die in parts 4 and 5. Although, some of the forums friendly neighborhood "carebears" will tell you that you should automatically accept the first people to hit the LFM regardless of build/experience/knowledge/gear/fortification/etc. A guildy and myself ran a shroud the other night where we did just that; we took the first people to apply. Instead of the usual 23 minute run it turned into a 50 minute run with my guildy cleric, myself, a monk, and maybe a wizard being everyone left standing at the end of 4. It's fun to shake things up once in awhile and since I didn't have to worry about healing (ran a DPSer) thought it was pretty funny. I agree that you are correct to decline these types when you want things done quickly, brutally, and efficiently.

[MrWizard]

They never changed him.

It's simply happened because AC is unreliable.

Between grazing hits and auto hits on 20.. He could of simply rolled well everytime to kill you.

It's never a good idea to rely solely on such a ureliable game function.

How people normally beat the shroud is by having multiple people with good dps attack and using mass cure spells. Might wanna try that next time.

I dunno, my ac fighter has no problems soloing him.
Might want to stop being such a DPS nerdtastic person and become civil in discussions.

Swarms usually happen a lot more if someone is ranging him. If someone is, then just try to deal with all the extra AoE attacks as ranged causes random and crazy aggro and more AoE. If you can tell them to stop he doesn't do swarm too much.


Shade, the GLenn Beck of DPS....it is a communist plot to steal your sword of shadows.
PS- SHade, we only use intimidate to keep people like you from dieing to easily cause you are squishy. If you got some AC we could hit more without having to intimidate every 6 seconds to keep you alive...

[MrWizard]

We take a few of these folks along when I run with guild from time to time in the hopes that they will realize their character might need some tweaking when they are the only ones to die in parts 4 and 5. Although, some of the forums friendly neighborhood "carebears" will tell you that you should automatically accept the first people to hit the LFM regardless of build/experience/knowledge/gear/fortification/etc. A guildy and myself ran a shroud the other night where we did just that; we took the first people to apply. Instead of the usual 23 minute run it turned into a 50 minute run with my guildy cleric, myself, a monk, and maybe a wizard being everyone left standing at the end of 4. It's fun to shake things up once in awhile and since I didn't have to worry about healing (ran a DPSer) thought it was pretty funny. I agree that you are correct to decline these types when you want things done quickly, brutally, and efficiently.

I agree, it is fun to do this. Part 4 and 5 can be taken care of with a small crew. The only issues I have are 2 can become quite a pain and 3 can be pretty bad sometimes due to taking 'just anybody'.. But 4 and 5 are the easier part of such a pug for sure...and it is fun to help them understand after the battle...reroll.

[Gol]

I officially nominate Shade for a new forum name as 'DPS TROLL'.+1 and /signed

As far as you and AC goes, Harry cleaves like almost all the raid bosses. Meaning your AC is only as high as the first person Harry connects with, which may very well be that Barb on your left that doesn't know how to flank.

And ditto what people said about Meteor swarm. It is now half no-save bludgeon damage.

[grodon9999]

Everyone knows AC is quite worthless in the shroud vs the pitfiend. You get lots of melee to gaterh around and the clerics heal. It's a pretty well known and standard thing that I really can't become to comprehend how anyone would argue.

We argue because our experience shows your statement to not be correct. AC isn't needed but this simply isn't true on Normal (Elite forget it, 80 AC and you'll still get hit nearly every shot). An AC of 70 or so will get you missed much more than it will get you hit. Again if people are spamming mass-cures you do not need AC for the Shroud but it's helpful for when the **** hits the fan.

In one Shroud a lag-spike wiped out most of the group, my exploiter and a Stalwart were the only two meless left and we were down to one healer. We turned on CE and finished him off, it took a while but it still worked.

[grodon9999]

If you have low HP and get hit by meteor swarm, you are going to die no matter what your AC and saves are.

I'd recommend at least 400 hp for any character who tries to melee him.

You can get away with less, you just need to know when to back off the fight for a second or two. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that . . .

[Daggaz]

Hey guys, newb here with my own experience/observations..

Im on Orion, and lucky enough to shroud with probably the best group of players on the server that I know of. One of them is an incredible tank, and they all know how to flank, DPS, and basically do their jobs. Never been on a shroud run with them that came even close to any trouble.

Anyhow, seemed to me that the lag was so bad with harry (no disco balls) that mass heal just didnt cut it. Some of the squishy guys, even with pimp gear, would die or come real close during the cooldown, and their hp bars rarely indicated their actual life. It was bad enough, that the leader actually noticed me trying it, and asked me to focus on cures. So I toss cures.. at intervals at first, and then spamming them for the blades. And everybody survives.

Now obviously, SP conservation isnt so important here since they one round him.. in which case its definitely better to just go balls out and burn everything for a sure win. And maybe the lag is only bad since their is so much DPS? But in crappy pugs, with horrible DPS, I still see the lag, and cannot see how to time mass heals.. SP conservation would be far more valuable, but its kinda pointless if people die, especially in part 4.

Mass heals. I generally only use them in fights where the damage is slower, and for instant healing the group after a big fight. And in that case, always without quicken. That is saving mana. A quickened maximized mass cure, on the other hand, will full heal all the squishies assuming they arent at 2 hps and give the tanks enough buffer that I can spot heal them (or toss a second mass cure), for only 10 more sp than a quickened empowered heal and in half the time. And far, far less time than a quickened mass heal.

I dont know, thats just the way I experience it so far..

[sirgog]

Why are you so hung up on this AC thing? Whats the fun in it? Why do you care? Why do you make up nonsense to defend it? Im sure you fully realsie what you wrote this is quite redicules.. So why write it? Why try to confuse this poor new player? Is it really worth tricking him?

Everyone knows AC is quite worthless in the shroud vs the pitfiend. You get lots of melee to gaterh around and the clerics heal. It's a pretty well known and standard thing that I really can't become to comprehend how anyone would argue.


That's the quick way to do the Shroud for groups that massively outgear the raid, it's also a very good way to wipe in the Shroud if the group isn't equipped for it.

If the group goes to hell in a handbasket (and yes, I've seen this a scary number of times), I'll prioritize keeping an evasive/AC build alive over an equivalently geared Barbarian. Slower, but a cheaper, and more certain completion.

Remember that NONE of the first successful completions of the Shroud (on any difficulty) used the 'all in, Mass Cure' strategy, they all used damage mitigation via Firestorm Greaves, Evasion and 1-3 'heroes' that were healed by scrolls.


I prefer to use the 'all in, Mass Heal' strategy in groups that outgear/outlevel the raid because, like you say, it's faster. But it is more prone to wipes, and is totally inappropriate to ungeared groups.




Your also too hung up on mass heal. Yea yea mass heal is more effecient, I know all aobut it, my FvS has a Devotion IX item and uses it all the time, but more effecient is not as important of a factor as is critical timing and keeping people alive. If you use an extra 20 mana from doing 2 cure masses instead of heal, mass. but keep that squishier rogue alive.. THe pitfiend dies faster and everyones happier.

Using mass heal is simply too slow and you will lose the squishier tanks.

In a perfect world where every tank had 500+ hp, sure use mass heal. But that's not gonna happen. Squishy melee do run the shroud, and it's better to keep them alive.



The cooldown on Mass Heal is 6.5 seconds. Harry possesses absolutely NO methods of dealing 500 damage to any character in 6.5 seconds if they have DR 5/- from a Warchanter (and Elite only, if they have Firestorm Greaves).

Noone with 500 hp will die if you Mass Heal every cooldown. 400 hp melees are only going to die during the blades in part 4 (if you fight through them, you will need to cycle in Mass Cures as well). The Mass Heal always gets through in time.

I lost noone solohealing two Elite passes (chickening out on blades) with this strategy (all non-WF melees had 550+ hp and a healing amplification factor of at least 1.2, WFs were getting occasional Mass Repair Criticals thrown by an arcane).

As for the ~330hp melees - if they cast Fire Shield on themselves, they are fine on Normal. If they can't UMD scrolls of that, chances are they are so undergeared that they are barely contributing any damage anyway.

[Xithos]

You can get away with less, you just need to know when to back off the fight for a second or two. I'm almost embarrassed to admit that . . .

I wouldn't recommend "backing out" for part 4 or 5 ever; I don't use puggers as the target for my mass heals because they might not understand that everybody fights and in a pickupgroup situation you might cause the deaths of the people around you when you hightail it out due to squishiness. The mass heals that you are the intended target for won't have proximity to the others. Also, not putting damage on the big guy will prolong the fight causing more sp or resources expended on hjealz. I would recommend a ranged weapon if you are not comfortable being in the thick of the melee. In part 5 people that run can allow the fiend to "wriggle" and go rampaging around throwing meteor swarms at casters and healers. Getting Arraetrikos back into position so the healers can use the pools after that can be annoying also.

[Daggaz]

... I would recommend a ranged weapon if you are not comfortable being in the thick of the melee....

Please, pleeeeaaaase dont start ranging Harry. It makes my job so much more difficult.

[grodon9999]

Please, pleeeeaaaase dont start ranging Harry. It makes my job so much more difficult.

Agreed, if you're gonna use a bow stand right next to him and point-blanks shoot in in the junk.

[sirgog]

I wouldn't recommend "backing out" for part 4 or 5 ever; I don't use puggers as the target for my mass heals because they might not understand that everybody fights and in a pickupgroup situation you might cause the deaths of the people around you when you hightail it out due to squishiness. The mass heals that you are the intended target for won't have proximity to the others. Also, not putting damage on the big guy will prolong the fight causing more sp or resources expended on hjealz. I would recommend a ranged weapon if you are not comfortable being in the thick of the melee. In part 5 people that run can allow the fiend to "wriggle" and go rampaging around throwing meteor swarms at casters and healers. Getting Arraetrikos back into position so the healers can use the pools after that can be annoying also.

When healing Shroud, I find a melee that won't die under any non-wipe circumstances (Barbarians are a good choice due to their HP buffer, as are the few high HP monks). I tell them to not move under any circumstances (or to be the last out if not fighting through blades), and tell everyone else to stay within a Haste radius of them if they want to get healed. (If using the Mass Cure method rather than the Mass Heal one, this may very well be my 621hp melee cleric, healing in between melee swings).

As long as people stick to that plan, it's worthwhile having the squishier folks move around. To test it out once, I took a level 13 ranger into the Shroud back when the cap was 16 (Rgr9/Pal3/Mnk1 anyway, we'll call them a ranger) and was able to survive fine by darting around at Harry's back with ~260hp. (That toon did have stellar defenses, however - 68 AC, 36 Reflex save and scrolled Fire Shield active - while their Fire Shield was active, they probably could have managed without the darting).

[HeavenlyCloud]

I'm glad you're back Osiris, there's not enough drama with you gone.