Make Fighter/Mage a Plausible Choice of Character

[Caervas]

I'm just going to throw this out (probably for the millionth time).

Why are there no PrE plans to add a fighter/mage type of character?

I was shocked not to see any sign of Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, Bladesinger or any other similarly themed prestige class from DnD.
You really have fortified list prepared, and plans seem to be covering every possible point except this!

DDO is such a good platform to produce fantastically different characters, yet there seems to be vacuum in this particular area.

Yes, there are still plausible builds that can accomplish the combination, but these are highly specialised and very hard to make successful. -As it is now, the very lack of options in this regard quickly becomes a trap for new players who have been playing such characters in other games, or even in DnD pen & paper.

There are several hints that point out that this is an area of modest focus, yet no real option or path that stands out; we get elven arcane fluidity, warforged inscribed armor, and numerous other lesser abilities that benefit the fighter/mage type of character. What we need now is something that binds it all together; a prestige enhancement that makes up for what these characters lose by multiclassing.

How about adding it to the plans, even if it isn't the first priority at the moment?

Incidentally, there are copious amounts of different suggestions about this already made; Prestige Enhancements, feats and item abilities (I know, because I have written several of them).

There are so many players who will benefit from having this implemented into the game. Show some love to the hybrids, not just the specialists!

[GhoulsTouch]

D&D's prestige classes in pen and paper became more orientated towards multi classed individuals, here it seems geared towards pure classed probably to cut corners and make things easier.

[Caervas]

That is entirely true, and also a trend I am strongly opposing. By only providing specialised pure class prestige enhancements, DDO takes away what is genuinely strong about the 3.5 system; Any other game will suffice, if pure classes do it for you.

There needs to be both kinds of characters, both specialists and hybrids. They contribute using different abilities.
Adding scenarios where characters need to use more than one base class' abilities could help this.

Also, there are players who identifies more with characters that arent the classical adventuring stereotypes, -give them a hand, rather than pushing them further away from usefulness.

[Seikojin]

I saw your previous topic from 2k9 about spellswords.

I agree, they should be in game, but, I also think you can make one that is pretty good without really losing much.

A spellsword to me is like a tempest ranger with arcane archer abilities applied to your weapons. If you do ranger 12, sorc or wizard 8, I think you could have something close, if not better than a spellsword. Let us see...

This will be a 12/8 ranger/wizard, human, 32 point build. Nothing super duper in there really. Can cast lvl 4 arcanes. Has maximize and fire line buffs so you can get more from your firewall. I also took extend to help with the buff spells. Mainly the arcane levels would be used for buffs and maybe one damage spell per level. Along the way I took oversized two wep and toughness. You could probably drop those if you went rapiers and didn't mind losing some hp. The stats are spread out, which you can alter to your tatse. Like less dex and more str and con. Each toughness you take is the same as having one more + from con for hp purposes. The saves are ok, nothing too spectacular. But then again, this is a spellswordish thing, not a savemonger. I made it sloppy, but it is a concept more than a build extreme.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

spellsword?
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(12 Ranger \ 8 Wizard)
Hit Points: 210
Spell Points: 830
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 14 14 14
Dexterity 14 18 22
Constitution 12 12 12
Intelligence 14 15 18
Wisdom 14 14 14
Charisma 12 12 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 4 14 14
Bluff 1 1 1
Concentration 5 24 24
Diplomacy 1 1 1
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 1 1 1
Heal 6 17 17
Hide 2 6 6
Intimidate 3 9 9
Jump 6 17 17
Listen 2 2 2
Move Silently 2 6 6
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 2 25 25
Search 2 4 4
Spot 6 17 17
Swim 6 17 17
Tumble 4 14 14
Use Magic Device 3 12.5 12.5

Level 1 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion


Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Animal


Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I
Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild III
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II

[Mr_Ed7]

My build is proably a bad example of a good build for this, however I stuck with the build to the end.

He (below) is based on the AD&D Fighter-Wizard, which required you to split the levels evenly and is based on Strength & Intelligence.

While a fun build, he does not fill one of the key spots in a party. He is the 5th or 6th man.

I have since tried another version of this build with Ranger-Wizard. That way I get the TWF fighting for free.

With my AD&D toon, it was a commitment; at the higher levels I am more effective.
Melees like my Haste & Web regardless, and Warforged like that I can play medic to them.

The really effective Warrior-Mages seem to be Warforged raced Wizards with some Fighter levels.

[Seikojin]

In the thread linked below, Sigtrent made a good list of informationals about the spellsword types and what impacts you should look at when making one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=242811&highlight=spellsword

I agree on many of his points. One thing stood out though. Making a class like that can be fun. Engame it is a pain. Epic difficulty it is not. Thinking about that, it made me remember that in ddo, you can have tons of characters. You can have a few that you use specifically for winning the game. The special builds you make are for fun. See how far you can push your designs with what the game has for you.

So I think a shared bank is useful so you can store low to mid level gear in there for specialty builds. Then at least you can tinker around and reroll if you need to without having to mail those critical items around all the time. And your big solo class endgamers can stockpile consumable build resources for your specialty builds.

In the below thread there is alot of talk of fighter/wizard. Again Sigtrent brings alot to the thread as well as Gol and a few others. Again it becomes less of a uber character build type and more of a fun character buildtype:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237799&highlight=spellsword

And this thread was about prestiege classes coming:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166967

[Seikojin]

My build is proably a bad example of a good build for this, however I stuck with the build to the end.

He (below) is based on the AD&D Fighter-Wizard, which required you to split the levels evenly and is based on Strength & Intelligence.

While a fun build, he does not fill one of the key spots in a party. He is the 5th or 6th man.

I have since tried another version of this build with Ranger-Wizard. That way I get the TWF fighting for free.

With my AD&D toon, it was a commitment; at the higher levels I am more effective.
Melees like my Haste & Web regardless, and Warforged like that I can play medic to them.

The really effective Warrior-Mages seem to be Warforged raced Wizards with some Fighter levels.

Although it is true, I still don't like it. LOL It would be funny if there was a new content pack that included an event based on the number of WF on the server. If it hit X population online, this assault quest became available where stormreach was assaulted by devils that try to make their way to a foundry where wf are made. I think it would be fun.

I think ranger/wiz or ranger/sorc is the best bet for spellswording. This way you get the melee you need for free, so you don't have to spend all your levels on fighter for the feats needed to get good twf. You could prolly do 12/8 wiz/fighter and stick with thf? I dunno, plenty of options.

[Thrudh]

The PrE system devised by the devs, along with the easy access to magic items of all types have made melee/casters very weak characters to play...

In fact, I think the PrE system was a huge mistake and has limited multi-classing in general.

All good multi-class combos are now 18/2 or 12/6/2 or 14/6 etc. The few non-standard interesting multi-class builds (like bard/fighter/rogues) only exist because there are no Tier III bard PrEs yet.

One of DDOs great strengths over other MMOs was the diversity in character creation... All kinds of different combinations were viable.

No longer. Some of the PrEs convey immense amount of power... and your character really cannot contribute meaningfully without it. A 17/3 barbarian/x does like 30% less DPS than a 18/2 barbarian/x... There is no 1 level of x class than can make up for that. 30% more DPS is insane...

Abilities from PrEs like Frenzied Berzerker III and Kensai II and Tempest I should be spread out among all three tiers, not just handed to a character full strength at that one tier.

As far as melee/casters go... there is so much magik in the game, that there is no point... I had a 12/7/1 ranger/wizard/rogue... a very fun character... The ability to cast haste, displacement, invisibility, blur, shield, exp retreat, and jump was very useful...

But now we can make or find items that self-cast long-lasting haste, displacement, jump... Tempest was changed to a shield bonus, permanent blur exists on items..

There's just no point to make a melee/caster any more... Better to make a full-powered melee with the good PrEs and just use magic items that give you the exact same power you got with those caster levels.

One can have access to all the good low-level wizard spells without having to give up any melee power to splash wizard.

I do not like the way PrEs are implemented... They are much too strong... And I do not like how easy it is to find buffs on items either...

But that's the game we play... In THIS game, a melee/caster is not a good character.

[Jakarr]

There are a few Battlemage builds out there that work very well end game

Impaqts 12 Wiz/6Fighter/2monk
Tuks 16 Sorc/2 pally/2rogue
Arcane Knight(sry forget who made it) 12 Sorc/6 pally/2monk

Also the 12 wiz/6 ranger/2monk and such.


All of which are WF. Fighter mage builds work very well in the right hands, you must have good gear know when to melee and when to cast and have good twitch skills and know how to build and play a complex char.

Most ppl have a understanding that battlemage builds suck and are worthless b/c of those Drow 4 Wizard/2 Fighters out in the harbor they encounter that are just sad, and thus they think that these builds are **** later on.

I will tell ya I'v got the 12 Wiz/6fighter/2monk had a mid lvl Arcane Knight and building the 16 sorc/2pally/2rogue atm and end game they are very very viable even in epic.

[Phidius]

I'm kinda torn.

On the one hand, I want to preach the gospel of Gemstone to the masses, and get them to turn from their wicked, sinful ways.

On the other hand, I want everyone to keep thinking the Battlecaster is gimp so that the maybe someday they'll give us a wizard PrE that doesn't get him killed.


'Course, I don't particularly care for the masses anyway... OK, you're right - he's a worthless gimp.

P.S. Aspenor posted the Arcane Knight.

[Cyr]

On the other hand, I want everyone to keep thinking the Battlecaster is gimp so that the maybe someday they'll give us a wizard PrE that doesn't get him killed.


lol, it would be nice for wizards to get a PrE that didn't make you want to re-roll your wizard into anything else.

[Seikojin]

I checked the pnp version, and you can do what a spellsword pretty much does as a wizard or sorc. Just use feats for some melee weapon stuff, spend some enhancements for fluidity, and there ya go. If you get toughness and a couple of their enhancements, you have negated the loss of a d8 hd/lvl.

[Rakian_Knight]

I'm not so sure that we should have PrE's that incorperate multiclassing but I do know we need somthing that does help multiclass builds. I personally don't really care for the PrE's and would much prefer them to make the Prestige Classes like in pnp.

However, one solution to this problem of wanting to be the spellcasting warrior would be to add one of the many classes that does that mainly either a Duskblade or a Hexblade. I would like to see something done about multiclassing in general (mainly because I hate WF wizards 18/ rogue 2).

Again these are only my thought so don't take them so seriously.

~Rakian_Knight