Will there ever be epics handwraps?? Dev's give me a sign.

[Taimasan]

Just depressing to here people going on about Epic SoS and there other nice epic weapons?? Will monks every get epic wraps??? The way its looking...I don't think so. Any other thoughts on this?? A response from a dev would be great!! Although i doubt that will happen, they probably have a rule or something against that.

[Angelus_dead]

Just depressing to here people going on about Epic SoS and there other nice epic weapons??
What are those "other nice epic weapons" people talk about?

[sirgog]

What are those "other nice epic weapons" people talk about?

Epic Xuum is stronger than Shroud weapons against mobs without fire resistance, and outclasses Shroud weapons on ice mephits, etc.

Epic Chaosblade is probably the best trash mob killer in the game for non-epic content.

But all the others could do with a major overhaul.

[Taimasan]

What are those "other nice epic weapons" people talk about?

At least they have the OPTION to make a epic weapon, and don't let me get started on greensteel :(. Monks...not so much.

EDIT: I mean not even a combat kama or staff is available on epic :(

[Fafnir]

Monks need equivalent weapons and weapon options. Epic weapons are necessary.

[MarcusCole]

/signed

We need epic handwraps or something with a red slot on it

[Angelus_dead]

Epic Xuum is stronger than Shroud weapons against mobs without fire resistance, and outclasses Shroud weapons on ice mephits, etc.

Epic Chaosblade is probably the best trash mob killer in the game for non-epic content.
That question was not about what epic weapons exist, but what ones people are talking about.

[Maldavenous]

Epic weapons aren't necessary.

Fixed. There's nothing you need an epic weapon for. I run epics and all the high end raids without a single epic item (I have horrible luck, may be a long time before I have an epic item worth using).

However I think every build/class should have viable epic items to strive for. Handwraps would certainly be nice.

One thing I'm wondering about is why so many monks think they need Greensteel Handwraps as well as Epics? A 20 monk has very fast attack rate unarmed (even faster in air stance) with special attacks to increase damage on hits and they get to make rings that add burst damage of up to 2 additional types (that doesn't match the types of their weapon) to all their attacks. Also monk base damage is nothing to laugh about, 2d10 damage is better than a lot of epics, TR once and you can make that 2d12+1.

[Kyrn]

At least they have the OPTION to make a epic weapon, and don't let me get started on greensteel :(. Monks...not so much.

EDIT: I mean not even a combat kama or staff is available on epic :(

Technically "Midnight Greetings" should count (monk centered kukri), if not for the int damage mod...


Also monk base damage is nothing to laugh about, 2d10 damage is better than a lot of epics, TR once and you can make that 2d12+1.
No one cares about dase damage at lv 20. Everyone cares about crit range and mutiplier. You cannot get keen and metalline together (other than Min II), not to mention people can get both on weapons which have innately better crit range and mutipliers.

[Maldavenous]

No one cares about dase damage at lv 20. Everyone cares about crit range and mutiplier. You cannot get keen and metalline together (other than Min II), not to mention people can get both on weapons which have innately better crit range and mutipliers.

I really doesn't matter what people care about. The fact of the matter is that nobody "NEEDS" epics. Most almost none of the epics out there solve your issue with getting Keen and Metalline on the same item and many of them don't have better crit ranges or multipliers while some (*cough* Sword of Shadows) get huge boosts in their crit ranges and multipliers.

The point of the matter is that Epics in and of themselves are not balanced. Having an epic handwrap isn't going to change munch unless it becomes the new must have, then it's not helping because instead of a real fix to your issue you're getting an epic that every monk is competing with you to get.

Also if monks get Greensteel handwraps that have higher crit range and/or multiplier as well as the other bonuses (lightning strike at the much higher attack rate is a lot more damage just to be clear) as well as being able to use ring burst effects their damage is going to become rather silly. Dark monks already picked up the ability to deal a 500 point hit every 15 seconds at will (I however like my light monk).

My primary character is an archer, so I certainly know what it's like to have a horrible crit range and no real epics (Thornlord is worth getting, but it's really not the end all be all of weapons). I also have a 20 monk and I have no complaints about my damage output when combined with all the other bonuses I receive.

[die]

wait epic handwraps you guys(monks) get epic DR...:).**** isnt that enough:).j/k i have a couple monks my self..

[rezo]

No one cares about dase damage at lv 20. Everyone cares about crit range and mutiplier. You cannot get keen and metalline together (other than Min II), not to mention people can get both on weapons which have innately better crit range and mutipliers.

Do mobs have fortification on epic?? If so then crit don't mean a thing dose it.

[Maldavenous]

Do mobs have fortification on epic?? If so then crit don't mean a thing dose it.

Crits are pretty big on epics actually. Epic monsters have a metric butt load of HP and the quickest way to kill one is to make sure you crit it a lot. The good group use Weighted and the fighters can land Stunning Blows as well and you end up with auto-crits for a lot of the fights. Having multiple burst effects and a faster attack rate means you'll land more hits during a stun and they'll have bonus damage. Also it means that you have a higher chance of landing your 5% weighted stun in the same amount of time as someone else.

However Harry (one of the main reasons to want Metalline on an item) has fortification which means higher crit rate/multiplier has less of a bonus.

[Taimasan]

Never said monks NEED greensteel. But it would be nice to have the option. Like on my fighter I have can have metalline of pure good weapons, or make min II's. Nobody really NEEDS min2's persay, but is great to have. I just want to have that option and be able to have that option available to me, or even have a epic cloth armor that is suited for monks. Having 2 upgraded ToD rings, i don't think I need GS wraps, but I think that epic wraps may be something that I need/want, and some epic cloth armor suited for melee(epic icy raiment ftw?). I think alot of people who say that monks don't need anything else have never played a monk :/. I can get a toon shroud ready and pass him ingredients and maybe have a Mineral II in one run. But if I wanted ToD rings and couldnt pull devouts I would have to get flagged for ToD, get level 18, get boots, maybe pull my ring, get 9 runs, etc. Biased imo.

[Gadget2775]

Technically "Midnight Greetings" should count (monk centered kukri), if not for the int damage mod...


Unless there was a change that I'm unaware of Kukris aren't a Centered weapon.

[Taimasan]

Unless there was a change that I'm unaware of Kukris aren't a Centered weapon.

People say you are centered when you wield midnight greetings. Even though its a kukri.

[Krag]

Pray when you get epic handwraps they won't suck as bad as Epic Rapier (http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3409/epicelydedge.jpg), Epic Shortbow (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/EpicCollapsibleShortbow.jpg), Epic Dagger (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/EpicFlint.jpg) or 99% other "epic" items.

[mediocresurgeon]

Probably when Necropolis goes epic.
+6 Metalline Greater Good handwraps, anyone?

Actually, I'm really looking forward to Epic Necropolis.
Docent of Blood, Ruined Ogre Femur, Deathnips, Limbchopper, Docent of Defiance, Litany of the Dead, Abbot Quiver, Boots of the Innocent, Vile Blasphemy--many items with great potential when properly upgraded for endgame play.

[Kyrn]

Probably when Necropolis goes epic.
+6 Metalline Greater Good handwraps, anyone?

Actually, I'm really looking forward to Epic Necropolis.
Docent of Blood, Ruined Ogre Femur, Deathnips, Limbchopper, Docent of Defiance, Litany of the Dead, Abbot Quiver, Boots of the Innocent, Vile Blasphemy--many items with great potential when properly upgraded for endgame play.

I just want to know how Ethereal Bracers compare with Spectral Gloves..

[Khelden]

At least they have the OPTION to make a epic weapon, and don't let me get started on greensteel :(. Monks...not so much.

EDIT: I mean not even a combat kama or staff is available on epic :(
http://ddowiki.com/page/Incredible_Potential

Read the note. When I read it, it ****ed me off.

Now add in this

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2366808&postcount=51

Also, I might be wrong, but monks get 2d10, 2d12 once reborn. Monks are probably the most dangerous class to play with atm. Buffing them could easily end up in a monster.

Sorry but monks are fine the way they are.

[Daehawk]

EDIT: I mean not even a combat kama or staff is available on epic :(

Epic Gianthold will have some staves. Granted they are all going to be caster items. Metalline Dream Edge would be +5 Kama, Maiming, Aligned, Bodyfeeder, Metalline, Lesser Vampirism after upgrade.

First epic kama if they don't release one on a smaller pack that is instantly epic like this last one will probably be: Redemption - (Weapon) +5 Kama, Holy, Greater Cold Resistance from Inferno of the Damned.

Necro will probably be the one that you'll have to look forward to for the known ones. Since hopefully when Necro goes epic it's all the Crypts + Necro 4 quests. Making it to where you can get Epic Devout Handwraps.

Unless they ever break down and release Greensteel handwraps.

[Timjc86]

Sorry but monks are fine the way they are.

Monks fall behind other classes in DPS, sometimes significantly. If you want a thorough explanation as to why, I'm happy to provide it, but be prepared for a long winded post.

Basically higher base damage die and damage on ToD rings doesn't even come close to making up for atrocious itemization, complete lack of prestige enhancements, the worst critical threat range, and the worst critical multiplier.

Edit: Clarity.

[zealous]

Monks fall behind other classes in DPS, sometimes significantly. If you want a thorough explanation as to why, I'm happy to provide it, but be prepared for a long winded post.

Basically higher base damage die and damage on ToD rings doesn't even come close to making up for atrocious itemization, complete lack of prestige enhancements, the worst critical threat range, and the worst critical multiplier.

Edit: Clarity.
Please do explain =)

Seeing as 2wf unarmed probably is the most potent and widely applicable fighting style, possibly barring SoS against 0% fort with perfect twitch.

Many high end dps builds would generally be better off (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/5851176-post67.html) with unarmed than with khopesh, the potential of a nearly pure monk (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/5977475-post114.html) is up in the godly dps league not to mention other (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2896738&postcount=1) alternatives (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2897999&postcount=1) so a long winded post showing otherwise would be warmly welcomed on my account.

Seeing as that they now can more or less match the peak performance of other classes for a wider set of situations, one would think that they run the danger of getting OP with any addition like PrCs or better weapons, would one not?

[Shade]

A monks epic weapon was just added a patch or 2 ago and already you want more!?!:
Greedy class geez.

Here it is here:
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:All-Consuming_Flame

Crit wall of fire at 500 per tic. 30 tics
500 +10% = 50 dmg, x 30 tics = 1500 damage punch. Pretty **** epic if you ask me.

Not to mention those crazy awesome bracers I helped Eurytrikos get. Don't believe what he says, He freakin loves those things, wears them all the time. Can check his myddo for proof!

Axerclass still doesn't have an epic greataxe and you don't see me or other axerclass's complaining.

[Gadget2775]

People say you are centered when you wield midnight greetings. Even though its a kukri.

Good to know, much appreciate.

[Khelden]

Monks fall behind other classes in DPS, sometimes significantly. If you want a thorough explanation as to why, I'm happy to provide it, but be prepared for a long winded post.

Basically higher base damage die and damage on ToD rings doesn't even come close to making up for atrocious itemization, complete lack of prestige enhancements, the worst critical threat range, and the worst critical multiplier.

Edit: Clarity.
I hope they fall behind other classes in DPS, if they stop to do so, I'd take the +1000 to all saves and +1000 to AC or a buff that gives -25% SP cost in an area they get that other melee DPS class don't. It's balanced. Monks get insane advantages on all the sides where other melee don't.

Even if a pure melee would outDPS a monk by, say, 30%, it would still be fine and maybe it should be even more than this. On my character, I had to do the choice of losing AC for more DPS. I am currently avoiding a big nothing, traps are destroying me just like elemental stuff, have a fairly high time ratio in incapacitate status.

[Arkat]

That question was not about what epic weapons exist, but what ones people are talking about.

:rolleyes:

[Gnorbert]

I don't see it so much as a question of performance, rather as having something to strive for. On all my characters, my favorite thing is to obtain new, better weapons and see an improvement of some kind. With no great goal of handwraps that fun is taken away. The anticipation you feel while gathering larges for that MinII greataxe, or trying to get to level 20 with that SoS in the bank so you can try and get the materials you need to one day wield the weapon of all weapons.... Monks do not get this anticipation or goal to work towards.

That to me is the biggest problem with handwraps.

[Bilger]

Pray when you get epic handwraps they won't suck as bad as Epic Rapier (http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7665/rapier.jpg), Epic Shortbow (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/EpicCollapsibleShortbow.jpg), Epic Dagger (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/EpicFlint.jpg) or 99% other "epic" items.

Yea those are pretty bad. Might want to change the rapier that isn't epic version. The rapier though would be good for a heal/cc bard though.

[Krag]

Yea those are pretty bad. Might want to change the rapier that isn't epic version.

Fixed.

[Timjc86]

I hope they fall behind other classes in DPS, if they stop to do so, I'd take the +1000 to all saves and +1000 to AC or a buff that gives -25% SP cost in an area they get that other melee DPS class don't. It's balanced. Monks get insane advantages on all the sides where other melee don't.

Even if a pure melee would outDPS a monk by, say, 30%, it would still be fine and maybe it should be even more than this. On my character, I had to do the choice of losing AC for more DPS. I am currently avoiding a big nothing, traps are destroying me just like elemental stuff, have a fairly high time ratio in incapacitate status.


First, I think your numbers are a little bit off.

Second, the light buffs are mostly a joke, primarily because of duration. Additionally, if you follow the combinations required to recast the light path buffs, you lose DPS from avoiding your other ki strikes.

Finally (and most importantly) end game content is devaluing armor class and valuing high DPS (especially high crit dps) more strongly than ever. A 90 AC monk will get hit just the same as a 12 AC barbarian in epic content - actually the monk will get hit more so considering that the barbarian will have monsters dead much faster than the monk.


Monks would be in good shape if the game equally valued DPS and armor class. However, the devs have made it pretty apparent ever since the WoP nerf and the addition of grazing hits that DPS is far more valuable.

[DrakmireTS]

Monks are fine utility in most epics. Weighted 5% + windstance, go. Not having an item to shoot for though, not even greensteel, is pretty much why my gf and I are done with our VIP subscriptions once we finish out our last few Abbots. No item to get excited over, no real reason to play.

Of course, as someone noted once in another one of these threads, just our luck that they'd be +6 Holy Burst, Shocking Burst of Everbright.

Edit:




Finally (and most importantly) end game content is devaluing armor class and valuing high DPS (especially high crit dps) more strongly than ever. A 90 AC monk will get hit just the same as a 12 AC barbarian in epic content - actually the monk will get hit more so considering that the barbarian will have monsters dead much faster than the monk.



Actually, it starts mattering again at 85 AC, so 90 would be halfway decent.

[Khelden]

First, I think your numbers are a little bit off.

Second, the light buffs are mostly a joke, primarily because of duration. Additionally, if you follow the combinations required to recast the light path buffs, you lose DPS from avoiding your other ki strikes.

Finally (and most importantly) end game content is devaluing armor class and valuing high DPS (especially high crit dps) more strongly than ever. A 90 AC monk will get hit just the same as a 12 AC barbarian in epic content - actually the monk will get hit more so considering that the barbarian will have monsters dead much faster than the monk.


Monks would be in good shape if the game equally valued DPS and armor class. However, the devs have made it pretty apparent ever since the WoP nerf and the addition of grazing hits that DPS is far more valuable.

As I said earlier, monks are nowhere near of being a pure DPS class. They are more a kind of support. The buffs makes you lose DPS? So what, it's not even your main job to do DPS. I've made my monk keeping this in mind and he's amazing. He easily solo stuff that my main character can't even think of soloing, even with 3 levels behind him.

Also, there's not only AC, there are saves, which monks gets by ton.

Seriously guys, did you really think you'd be an awesome DPS by rolling a monk?


Monks use an energy called ki to perform amazing techniques in battle. Usually fighting without weapons and armor, they can assist allies or destroy enemies but take longer to master than the other melee classes.

Compare with


Barbarians possess incredible strength and offensive power. They are not as well armored as fighters, but they can absorb damage and go into a battle rage to overwhelm their enemies.

Also, Drakmire, sorry but your reason to "stop your VIP" is a little bit ... poor. Even if you could get the epic SoS handwrap version, once you'd get it, then what? Same thing. Stop VIP, nothing to aim for anymore.

[DrakmireTS]

You are correct. If we got the non-existent epic handwraps, we would again be left in the same situation. I just wanted to point out that there are exceedingly few carrots to take our minds off of the treadmill. A fresher one would be nice.

[Isssssa]

Epic Handwraps already exist, that's what ice games were for...

http://i42.tinypic.com/bj8geb.jpg

[Chai]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Incredible_Potential

Read the note. When I read it, it ****ed me off.

Now add in this

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2366808&postcount=51

Also, I might be wrong, but monks get 2d10, 2d12 once reborn. Monks are probably the most dangerous class to play with atm. Buffing them could easily end up in a monster.

Sorry but monks are fine the way they are.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Monks have been left behind. TOD rings are not the fix. Even if monks get 2d12 base, its x2 crit, 20 range. They also dont have prestige.

A monk should not have to sacrifice ring slots slots to put up the same burst DPS a melee can craft onto one weapon slot, and be able to bypass DR.

Metalline PG Wraps? good luck. Any other class can buy their weapon starting at level 6 on the AH. Monk either has to farm the one known set, or pray to get a rare drop, or trade his left nut for a pair someone else picked up on a rare drop.

What other weapons can a monk build KI on?

Lets see, staff LOL 1d6 20 x2 Kama - the only thing good here is you can get vorpals. Fail DPS, all

Every other blunt weighted adds to stunning blow DC - except handwraps.

Every other weapon in the game can be metalline at level 4 - except handwraps. - starts at level 10 except a rare few.

Every other weapon in the game can be made greensteel - except handwraps.

Every other weapon in the game has metal options like silver and cold iron in the random loot tables for bypassing DR - except handwraps.

So you see, monks cant use handwraps in alot of special situations where melee who are spec into one specific weapon like kensai have no issue finding weapons they can use.

While melee 2 handers are plowing rooms full of mobs and critting for 600+ with epic SoS, monks are running around with +5 handwraps 5% weighted for the stun proc due to speed of attacks. Thats the best epic game monks have.

When epic abbot happens will there be epic devouts?

[Thriand]

Epic Handwraps already exist, that's what ice games were for...

http://i42.tinypic.com/bj8geb.jpg

Goggles of insight FTW!

[Khelden]

While melee 2 handers are plowing rooms full of mobs and critting for 600+ with epic SoS, monks are running around with +5 handwraps 5% weighted for the stun proc due to speed of attacks. Thats the best epic game monks have.

When epic abbot happens will there be epic devouts?

The 600+ crits are only on enraged + frenzied barbarians (or enraged, not frenzied extremely uber barbarian), a class which has absolutely nothing beside DPS, which is not the case of Monks.

Compare apples with apples please.

[Timjc86]

As I said earlier, monks are nowhere near of being a pure DPS class. They are more a kind of support.

Monk DPS would be plenty competitive with faster attacks and higher base damage if everyone else weren't running around with +5 higher base damage holy shocking burst shocking blast lightning strike weapons with an 18-20/x3 crit profile.

The bottom line is this: the game (and its players) are further and further devaluing the extra stuff that monks get and further and further valuing DPS.

A DPS sacrifice for more AC and utility would be fine if that AC and utility were actually useful and desirable. But they're not.

AC and monk utility need to become useful or they need more DPS.

[Pyromaniac]

I've seen very high DPS monks, not sure where your issue is. Frankly barbarians should out DPS monks.

[rophez2]

if anyone has epic rapier (elyd edge) scrolls ill gladly take em :D (on argonessen)

[Timjc86]

Please do explain =)

Seeing as 2wf unarmed probably is the most potent and widely applicable fighting style, possibly barring SoS against 0% fort with perfect twitch.

Many high end dps builds would generally be better off (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/5851176-post67.html) with unarmed than with khopesh,

I'm not seeing how that specific post makes the point you say it does. It does less DPS than the khopesh variant against 0% fort and more against 100% (as would be expected.)

Moreover I don't see what it has to do with our monk discussion as it's a very specific build using mostly non-monk class bonuses to boost unarmed damage. Good luck finding a pair of +5 Holy Seeker 10 handwraps of Greater X Bane.


the potential of a nearly pure monk (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/5977475-post114.html) is up in the godly dps league

Again, I'm not seeing that thread make the point you say it does. A pure monk is 4th from the bottom on his 0% fort list and still only in 5th place against 100% fort. The specific post you quote would only put the build closer to the middle of the pack with the listed bonuses. It also still assumes you can find some +5 holy of greater bane wraps for everything you want to fight.

As for ki strikes, there are a number of assumptions that are being made when applying them to DPS calculators like these:

The character has a good variety of the highest tier strikes.
The critters being fought are vulnerable to one or more of the strikes.
The character is able to constantly generate the required amount of ki to keep strikes going.
The player has the appropriate action bar space, key binding, twitch skill, and tactile fortitude (seriously, my fingers get tired) to spam strikes consistently.
Latency is cooperative.


Some of those assumptions are trivial, but some are not. Basically a character depending upon ki strikes for DPS has significantly more work to do than other classes to achieve a lower level of DPS.


not to mention other (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2896738&postcount=1)

1/3 of that build's listed melee damage comes from a 7 rogue splash. The damage itself isn't all that special - it's not bad but it's not great either.

You do realize that the 500 point burst damage in that build from Touch of Death can be replicated and even out-done by fighters and barbarians much more frequently than once every fifteen seconds?


alternatives (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2897999&postcount=1)

That's not a monk build. Nobody is debating that monk is a poor splash, but that (mostly) pure monks need some help.


so a long winded post showing otherwise would be warmly welcomed on my account.

Seeing as that they now can more or less match the peak performance of other classes for a wider set of situations, one would think that they run the danger of getting OP with any addition like PrCs or better weapons, would one not?

It should be clear from that DPS thread that splash classes utilizing unarmed combat with ideal/non-existent gear and peerless ki strike spamming attain significantly less DPS than a number of other DPS builds against mobs with 0% fortification.

The only place where the unarmed builds you link "more or less match the peak performance of other classes" is portal beating - I'd hardly call that a "wider set of situations." And the builds that do that have about 2 monk levels.

Bearing all of that in mind, I have absolutely zero concerns about monks getting overpowered from the addition of PrEs that would require 6, 12, 18 monk levels for the respective tiers.

Having said all of that, I'll start throwing together a more detailed and more general post explaining my view of monks' current plight.

[Khelden]

5th is insanely high for a monk class.

If you want to have the monk in the top DPS league, you'd have ALOT of gimping to do. Here are some exemples:
1) Saves: 1 Good, 2 Bad
2) No good stat synergy regarding AC & Saves
3) Average AC should not go beyond 20
4) Reduce the chances to proc effects such as paralyzing, stunning blows
5) No innate spell resistance
6) No wholeness of body
7) No rise of the phoenix

And the list goes on.

People need to stop thinking that they can or should be gods. You're a DPS or a Support, not both unless they both are average, which is what the monk is.

[Alintalkin]

5th is insanely high for a monk class.

If you want to have the monk in the top DPS league, you'd have ALOT of gimping to do. Here are some exemples:
1) Saves: 1 Good, 2 Bad
2) No good stat synergy regarding AC & Saves
3) Average AC should not go beyond 20
4) Reduce the chances to proc effects such as paralyzing, stunning blows as well as having higher crit range activate on crit abilities
5) No innate spell resistance
6) No wholeness of body
7) No rise of the phoenix

And the list goes on.

People need to stop thinking that they can or should be gods. You're a DPS or a Support, not both unless they both are average, which is what the monk is.

Consider Paladins:
1. They have good saves
2. they have good stat synergy regarding AC& saves
3. They have good AC
4. They have the same chance of hitting para and stuns, almost hitting as fast with Zeal and haste
5. They have lay on of hands
6. they have unyeilding soveriegnity
7. they can raise
8. They can use more weapons then monks
9. They have smites and divine sacrifice
10. They have one of THE dps PRE, KoTC
11.they have holy sword spell to easily bypass DR
12. they have spells
13. they have higher hit die
14. they can have GS
15. they can buff others
All of this and they still have DPS to match and sometimes beat barbarians! someone hit them with the nerf bat they are overpowered!... oh wait they are not.
Monks are underpowered and as if in a slap to the face we get worst gear. Some also cost more!Our vorps cost 400-600k pp well others get theirs for 25-100k pp, and non-devout metalline of pg handwraps go in AH for plat cap. Ya, very fair
Not.

[Timjc86]

5th is insanely high for a monk class.

That's fifth in situations that most strongly skew everything DPS wise in favor of the monk, which means significantly less than 5th most of the time.


If you want to have the monk in the top DPS league, you'd have ALOT of gimping to do. Here are some exemples:
1) Saves: 1 Good, 2 Bad

Pallies have higher saves than monks in general, and higher DPS. And more utility - utility that's actually useful.


2) No good stat synergy regarding AC & Saves
3) Average AC should not go beyond 20
AC does not matter. I've said this multiple times already. There's also no synergy between either of those and DPS. Attaining AC is a DPS sacrifice for monks, just as for other classes.


4) Reduce the chances to proc effects such as paralyzing, stunning blows
Paralyzing is useless after about level 14. Not to mention monks have a much lower chance of proccing more useful effects like banishing and smiting than any other class.

There's no way a pure monk can reliably land Stunning Blow in end game content. I'm not sure where this Stunning Blow argument comes from as both barbarians and fighters are significantly better at using it while simultaneously outputting significantly more DPS than monks, before and after stuff is stunned.


5) No innate spell resistance
This is really only useful around level 14-17. In raids everybody has higher SR anyway from the divine spell.


6) No wholeness of body
This can only be used out of combat every two minutes and takes a significant amount of time to use. Most of the time I just chug pots like everybody else.


7) No rise of the phoenix
Complete waste of enhancements. Just use the raise clicky on your double/triple positive handwraps... oh wait...

[Alintalkin]

That's fifth in situations that most strongly skew everything DPS wise in favor of the monk, which means significantly less than 5th most of the time.



Pallies have higher saves than monks in general, and higher DPS. And more utility - utility that's actually useful.


AC does not matter. I've said this multiple times already. There's also no synergy between either of those and DPS. Attaining AC is a DPS sacrifice for monks, just as for other classes.


Paralyzing is useless after about level 14. Not to mention monks have a much lower chance of proccing more useful effects like banishing and smiting than any other class.

There's no way a pure monk can reliably land Stunning Blow in end game content. I'm not sure where this Stunning Blow argument comes from as both barbarians and fighters are significantly better at using it while simultaneously outputting significantly more DPS than monks, before and after stuff is stunned.


This is really only useful around level 14-17. In raids everybody has higher SR anyway from the divine spell.


This can only be used out of combat every two minutes and takes a significant amount of time to use. Most of the time I just chug pots like everybody else.


Complete waste of enhancements. Just use the raise clicky on your double/triple positive handwraps... oh wait...

+1 well said Timjc86

[Timjc86]

I should probably add that I think unarmed damage on ToD rings was a mistake. I'm not advocating greensteel/epic wraps in addition to ToD ring damage, that would be a bit much.

But I'd certainly give up ToD damage effects for greensteel wraps and +2 exceptional stat bonuses on ToD rings.

[Hydro]

From comparing a maxxed Barbarian with Epic SoS to my maximum DPS WF monk I feel my monk is about 1/3 of the DPS my barbaian is.

The problem is my monk is at 85% best for slot gear, Frenzy Bezerker set and VOD goggles are not going to put me at 2/3 the DPS of my barb, it is barely going to increses my DPS by maybe 10%.

The thing is also I would like something to strive for, some sort of epic weapon would be great, or a decent epic monk item (Like the bracers should of been). Right now I log on my monk run a VOD or TOD and I am done with him, there needs to be more room for improvement for my character.

[Khelden]

That's fifth in situations that most strongly skew everything DPS wise in favor of the monk, which means significantly less than 5th most of the time.



Pallies have higher saves than monks in general, and higher DPS. And more utility - utility that's actually useful.


AC does not matter. I've said this multiple times already. There's also no synergy between either of those and DPS. Attaining AC is a DPS sacrifice for monks, just as for other classes.


Paralyzing is useless after about level 14. Not to mention monks have a much lower chance of proccing more useful effects like banishing and smiting than any other class.

There's no way a pure monk can reliably land Stunning Blow in end game content. I'm not sure where this Stunning Blow argument comes from as both barbarians and fighters are significantly better at using it while simultaneously outputting significantly more DPS than monks, before and after stuff is stunned.


This is really only useful around level 14-17. In raids everybody has higher SR anyway from the divine spell.


This can only be used out of combat every two minutes and takes a significant amount of time to use. Most of the time I just chug pots like everybody else.


Complete waste of enhancements. Just use the raise clicky on your double/triple positive handwraps... oh wait...

If you remove these, I will have nothing against an upgrade of monk DPS. Since they are almost all useless, why would it matter? :)

There are many stuff to consider when looking at a class, the effort taken to level it up is one of them. I lvl'd my monk about ~200-300% faster than my fighter. This is something which must be considered. As a general rule, the harder something is to level up, the better it should end. In D&D, there was something about it for the races, for exemple, drows would take more XP to level up. Sorcerer works the same pretty much, extremely weak at lvl 1, when they hit epic, don't even dare to annoy them heh.

[Timjc86]

If you remove these, I will have nothing against an upgrade of monk DPS. Since they are almost all useless, why would it matter? :)

There are many stuff to consider when looking at a class, the effort taken to level it up is one of them. I lvl'd my monk about ~200-300% faster than my fighter. This is something which must be considered. As a general rule, the harder something is to level up, the better it should end. In D&D, there was something about it for the races, for exemple, drows would take more XP to level up. Sorcerer works the same pretty much, extremely weak at lvl 1, when they hit epic, don't even dare to annoy them heh.

I would absolutely give up AC, saves, spell resistance, Stunning Blow, Wholeness of Body, and Rise of the Phoenix for more DPS. I have already done so where possible.

[Alintalkin]

If you remove these, I will have nothing against an upgrade of monk DPS. Since they are almost all useless, why would it matter? :)

There are many stuff to consider when looking at a class, the effort taken to level it up is one of them. I lvl'd my monk about ~200-300% faster than my fighter. This is something which must be considered. As a general rule, the harder something is to level up, the better it should end. In D&D, there was something about it for the races, for exemple, drows would take more XP to level up. Sorcerer works the same pretty much, extremely weak at lvl 1, when they hit epic, don't even dare to annoy them heh.

Few things
1. He only said that the raise and Ac was useless (in lose terms). The raise isn't worth the AP and AC is useless on elite/epic in high level quests. Doesn't mean that they aren't useful when leveling up though. besides as he has posted above me he would give up all those things. Personally I monks need a higher DPS even with all these things. Though I could stand possibly losing SR, and rise of the phoenix
2. You level up the character faster in part to familarity with the game, I can't find the thread but someone was complaining about the time limit on TR a while back, meaning they leveled up a TR char in a week or two.
3. I can't helped but be amused by the fact that you conveniently ignored my post that basically showed paladin superiority in many ways over monk, when Paladins are not considered an overpowered class.
4. You have shown on more then one thread that you do not have a full understanding of the game mechanics (not that I do but it is sad when you agrue points that have been refuted utterly by 10 other posters) and you have the hot headed superiority complex to ignore that fact. You have to learn the game from experience or from listening to the experienced people. I am not experienced, but at least I listen instead of keep a close mindedness. My last post to you in this thread, and possibly all other threads until you show a willness to learn and knowledge of the game.

[Khelden]

Few things
1. He only said that the raise and Ac was useless (in lose terms). The raise isn't worth the AP and AC is useless on elite/epic in high level quests. Doesn't mean that they aren't useful when leveling up though. besides as he has posted above me he would give up all those things. Personally I monks need a higher DPS even with all these things. Though I could stand possibly losing SR, and rise of the phoenix
2. You level up the character faster in part to familarity with the game, I can't find the thread but someone was complaining about the time limit on TR a while back, meaning they leveled up a TR char in a week or two.
3. I can't helped but be amused by the fact that you conveniently ignored my post that basically showed paladin superiority in many ways over monk, when Paladins are not considered an overpowered class.
4. You have shown on more then one thread that you do not have a full understanding of the game mechanics (not that I do but it is sad when you agrue points that have been refuted utterly by 10 other posters) and you have the hot headed superiority complex to ignore that fact. You have to learn the game from experience or from listening to the experienced people. I am not experienced, but at least I listen instead of keep a close mindedness. My last post to you in this thread, and possibly all other threads until you show a willness to learn and knowledge of the game.
If you had ever ran in stuff like I've did on previous game, you'd know a very important fact:
-Most people are idiots, make your own experience, listen but always keep a logical mind.

I do know that we get to know the game better the more we play to level up, however, I did lower the % to express this. I've said 200-300%, which means 2-3x. Reality was it took me 5-6x less time. I did not ignore your post about paladins, I am writing in many threads & studying, when I refreshed this page I was on Tim post, which I answered.

I find it funny you assume I think paladins are fine. I don't remember writing anything about them, but glad to know what I think of them by another person? Sorry, you're not me. Don't think for me.

[Greydeath]

If you had ever ran in stuff like I've did on previous game, you'd know a very important fact:
-Most people are idiots, make your own experience, listen but always keep a logical mind.
You should take your own advice. Seriously - especially after your involvement in this thread. :eek:


Don't think for me.
Be thankful someone is :rolleyes:

[zealous]

I'm not seeing how that specific post makes the point you say it does. It does less DPS than the khopesh variant against 0% fort and more against 100% (as would be expected.)

Moreover I don't see what it has to do with our monk discussion as it's a very specific build using mostly non-monk class bonuses to boost unarmed damage. Good luck finding a pair of +5 Holy Seeker 10 handwraps of Greater X Bane.

Well it's not using +5 holy gbs, only +1 so yes, it's missing some 18dps for not having optimal weapons, 2 dps advantage from not accounting for SA, 4 dps for not accounting for generally being able to use at least 2 elemental strikes.

The +10 seeker is from kensai+equipment.

Then add risia recipes for some 30ish dps and suddenly unarmed is generally better for 0% fort even for a build with tempest.

The discussion is about the addition of green steel wraps so obviously the effect on any build with at least 1 monk level should be accounted for. Don't need more than 1 monk level to use wraps efficiently.




Again, I'm not seeing that thread make the point you say it does. A pure monk is 4th from the bottom on his 0% fort list and still only in 5th place against 100% fort. The specific post you quote would only put the build closer to the middle of the pack with the listed bonuses. It also still assumes you can find some +5 holy of greater bane wraps for everything you want to fight.

If you had actually added the numbers together you would have noticed that with a wee bit of splashing it'd move up to positions 3/1/1 for 0/50/100% fort.

The notable thing about it is that it's not nearly as reliant on neither taking damage, managing buffs/boosts, not having aggro nor only working against a few mob types compared to it's competitors.



As for ki strikes, there are a number of assumptions that are being made when applying them to DPS calculators like these:

The character has a good variety of the highest tier strikes. You would generally only need earth/wind
The critters being fought are vulnerable to one or more of the strikes.everyone is vulnerable to earth, few are not vulnerable or even sensitive to one of the others. The ones resistant to all generally have fort
The character is able to constantly generate the required amount of ki to keep strikes going. Which has been accounted for or the numbers would be higher, getting sufficient ki is generally not problematic
The player has the appropriate action bar space, key binding, twitch skill, and tactile fortitude (seriously, my fingers get tired) to spam strikes consistently.there's 20 action bars, key binding is trivial, spamming 2-8 buttons might be redious but yet trivial and you don't loose much by skipping lower tiers. You have a point that you might get tired if you're unexperienced with typing using a keyboard for extended time periods and/or have a low quality keyboard usi
Latency is cooperative.Can be compensated for given sufficient experience


Some of those assumptions are trivial, but some are not. Basically a character depending upon ki strikes for DPS has significantly more work to do than other classes to achieve a lower level of DPS.

Compared to pally buff juggling + smiting, timing the haste boosts of a fighter. Possibly slightly more work but the potential and added benefits are quite nice.




1/3 of that build's listed melee damage comes from a 7 rogue splash. The damage itself isn't all that special - it's not bad but it's not great either.

The majority of dps comes from using wraps.



You do realize that the 500 point burst damage in that build from Touch of Death can be replicated and even out-done by fighters and barbarians much more frequently than once every fifteen seconds?

You do realize the silliness of that statement since it's obviously not true?
I'm guessing your thinking of crits which you can't summon on demand, won't be nearly that high until possibly at high levels and will be weighted up by the attack speed and damage adds of unarmed.



That's not a monk build. Nobody is debating that monk is a poor splash, but that (mostly) pure monks need some help.

How many monk levels is required to be considered a monk build?
How many roads must a man walk down?
It is a unarmed build which is the only thing of relevance towards discussing the addition of gs wraps.



It should be clear from that DPS thread that splash classes utilizing unarmed combat with ideal/non-existent gear and peerless ki strike spamming attain significantly less DPS than a number of other DPS builds against mobs with 0% fortification.

Match or surpass, you're generally not fighting under optimal conditions against your mob of choice.



The only place where the unarmed builds you link "more or less match the peak performance of other classes" is portal beating - I'd hardly call that a "wider set of situations." And the builds that do that have about 2 monk levels.

Then you have obviously not read, thought and reflected but instead chosen to stick to your biased preconceptions despite the presented facts.



Bearing all of that in mind, I have absolutely zero concerns about monks getting overpowered from the addition of PrEs that would require 6, 12, 18 monk levels for the respective tiers.

Monks are probably quite fine even if they get boosted "over the top" by PrCs. Managing ki, abilities, getting build and equipment right, attaining and lugging a full set of frost icyburst alignment of greater banes+transmuting greater banes would probably make the chances of achieving "on paper optimal performance" slim to none.



Having said all of that, I'll start throwing together a more detailed and more general post explaining my view of monks' current plight.
Coolio


I should probably add that I think unarmed damage on ToD rings was a mistake. I'm not advocating greensteel/epic wraps in addition to ToD ring damage, that would be a bit much.

But I'd certainly give up ToD damage effects for greensteel wraps and +2 exceptional stat bonuses on ToD rings.
The ToD rings was a mistake in that it severly limits what other handwraps can be put in game with out leading to things more crazybroken than they are.

At the same time the lack of GS makes it difficult for Joe average to achieve near optimal performance as well as bypassing DR. This is both good and bad in that monks might not be as popular for some raids while allowing for the holy grail of transmuting greater banes as well as making slight crazybrokenness not as bad.

[Timjc86]

Well it's not using +5 holy gbs, only +1 so yes, it's missing some 18dps for not having optimal weapons, 2 dps advantage from not accounting for SA, 4 dps for not accounting for generally being able to use at least 2 elemental strikes.
I see, I forgot the +4 enhancement from Greater Banes (always do.) I'm not sure +5 Holy GBs can exist in the loot tables with a low enough level requirement to be equipped; even if they can, I'd love to know the odds of ever seeing a set.


The +10 seeker is from kensai+equipment.
I forgot about weapon mastery seeker; fair enough.


Then add risia recipes for some 30ish dps and suddenly unarmed is generally better for 0% fort even for a build with tempest.

The event's over. Unless you already got it on a set of Holy GBs for everything you want to fight, you're out of luck.
Most anything you'd have a set of GBs for is resistant enough to ice that you wouldn't get any DPS from this anway.
I also wouldn't count icy burst and frost together as I recall that being a bug that's supposedly going to get fixed (though considering Turbine's record with DDO bugs, maybe you should go ahead and count both....)


How are you getting 30dps from the ice ritual but only 2dps from sneak attacks?

Without the icy ritual, the optimally geared and played unarmed build still does less DPS than the khopesh variant using greensteels against 0% fort. Throw some +1 Holy GBs (give or take the icy ritual if you'd like) onto the khopesh build and its DPS will increase.


The discussion is about the addition of green steel wraps so obviously the effect on any build with at least 1 monk level should be accounted for. Don't need more than 1 monk level to use wraps efficiently.

The build above would lose DPS by using greensteel handwraps over +1 Holy GBs.


If you had actually added the numbers together you would have noticed that with a wee bit of splashing it'd move up to positions 3/1/1 for 0/50/100% fort.

378/363/349
+33/+33/+33
+40/+40/+40 (I think this is an overly generous #)
+13/+13/+13 (one FE, HIGHLY situational)
+28/+14/+0
-6/-6/-6 (loses the final unarmed dmg die)
-------------
486/457/429
+4% Haste Boost I (assuming 4% is correct)
-------------
506/476/447

Puts it at 3/1/1 against one type of enemy assuming optimal gear, strike spamming, and boost management.

473/444/416
4%
-------------
492/462/433

Puts it at 4-5/1/1 against non favored enemies. Throw some comparable weapons onto the other builds and this build will fall back towards the middle of the pack.


The notable thing about it is that it's not nearly as reliant on neither taking damage, managing buffs/boosts, not having aggro nor only working against a few mob types compared to it's competitors.

Adding favored enemy, sneak attack, and haste boost makes it just as reliant on those things as many of the other common DPS builds, especially considering the monk has to do all of the above while simultaneously working ki strikes.


# there's 20 action bars, key binding is trivial, spamming 2-8 buttons might be redious but yet trivial and you don't loose much by skipping lower tiers. You have a point that you might get tired if you're unexperienced with typing using a keyboard for extended time periods and/or have a low quality keyboard usi

I have a good keyboard. I have an embarrassing amount of experience typing. My fingers get tired spamming four ki strikes on raid bosses.


Can be compensated for given sufficient experience

If you press a button and nothing happens because of lag, how would pressing that button with more experience help? Granted, you can press it again and again, faster and harder (that's what she said) but that leads to cramps.


You do realize the silliness of that statement since it's obviously not true?
I'm guessing your thinking of crits which you can't summon on demand, won't be nearly that high until possibly at high levels and will be weighted up by the attack speed and damage adds of unarmed.

This was quite possibly the most serious statement I made in my entire post. Fighters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1xxmmdxf40) and barbarians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTrD-S030sM&fmt=22) can quite easily match and exceed 500 points of damage, MUCH more frequently than once every fifteen seconds.


How many monk levels is required to be considered a monk build?
How many roads must a man walk down?
It is a unarmed build which is the only thing of relevance towards discussing the addition of gs wraps.

The unarmed builds in the DPS calculations you link to would lose DPS by using greensteel handwraps. If you've got Holy GBs, they're a better choice for every build.

My point is that monks (or any unarmed combat characters) are stuck with randomized handwraps from level 1 to 20.

At level 12 every other character can start using greensteel weapons.
Unarmed gets ToD rings at 18 after grinding for boots and then grinding for the rings themselves.
Unarmed forgoes the +2 exceptional stat bonuses that every other class puts on ToD rings to pair with ideal GB weapons to even come close to reaching DPS competitive with weapons that other classes have been using since level 12.
And then at 20 other classes get epic weapons while the unarmed users are still stuck with randomized wraps.



Match or surpass, you're generally not fighting under optimal conditions against your mob of choice.

That's exactly my point. You may not have GB wraps for everything you're fighting, your ki strikes may not work against the current critter, you may be up against something with DR/slash, pierce, it may not be your favored enemy, you may not be getting sneak attacks. A combat style that depends on greater bane blunt weapons and elemental damage for a large portion of its DPS is not what I would call the "most potent and widely applicable fighting style."


Then you have obviously not read, thought and reflected but instead chosen to stick to your biased preconceptions despite the presented facts.

I've read carefully and I've presented my arguments against the DPS calculations on paper, but more importantly I've played the game.

I've struggled to build a monk that can even attempt to compete with my rogue or ranger builds which aren't even max DPS, let alone the barbarians in my guild with an epic SoS.
I've ransacked Shadow Crypt with friends looking for a way to bypass raid boss DR besides metaline kamas of pure good.
I've farmed ToD ad nauseum trying to get some decent rings (the ideal ones I have yet to even see drop.)
I've scoured the auction house daily for a weapon upgrade, only to see any actual improvements listed for millions of platinum.


I've played as and with my fair share of monks, both good and bad. But I've yet to see any monk tear through mob HP like I've seen forms of all of the other melee classes do. Hell, I've seen some favored souls that could give monks a run for their money in melee DPS.

I'm just not convinced that monk DPS is where it needs to be considering the current state of the game.


Managing ki, abilities, getting build and equipment right, attaining and lugging a full set of frost icyburst alignment of greater banes+transmuting greater banes would probably make the chances of achieving "on paper optimal performance" slim to none.

Exactly.


The ToD rings was a mistake in that it severly limits what other handwraps can be put in game with out leading to things more crazybroken than they are.

I could not agree more. Unarmed damage on ToD rings was a mistake. I'd much rather have greensteel handwraps and get my two +2 exceptional stat bonuses like every other class.

[bobbryan2]

5th is insanely high for a monk class.

If you want to have the monk in the top DPS league, you'd have ALOT of gimping to do. Here are some exemples:
1) Saves: 1 Good, 2 Bad
2) No good stat synergy regarding AC & Saves
3) Average AC should not go beyond 20
4) Reduce the chances to proc effects such as paralyzing, stunning blows
5) No innate spell resistance
6) No wholeness of body
7) No rise of the phoenix

And the list goes on.

People need to stop thinking that they can or should be gods. You're a DPS or a Support, not both unless they both are average, which is what the monk is.

Hi, welcome to the game.

See... there were people JUST like you telling the rest of people that knew better that paladins were ok. "Paladins are a support class," they'd say. "But Paladins have amazing saves, good AC, and lay on hands, etc."

Even devs would post questionable statements about how Paladins were always the last to fall in an encounter. (Generally just proving that they hadn't really gotten beyond mid game.)

Luckily, people finally convinced devs that just because Paladins had more support abilities didn't mean they didn't need top notch DPS as well. And the result? Did paladins suddenly become amazingly incredible? Not really, but it made them useful in quests.

It's playing out with monks as well right now. Thinking that being good at support means DPS has to suck is a terrible terrible stance. Support counts for so little at end game, that it's not worth tipping the scales.

[zealous]

The event's over. Unless you already got it on a set of Holy GBs for everything you want to fight, you're out of luck. A
Most anything you'd have a set of GBs for is resistant enough to ice that you wouldn't get any DPS from this anway. B
I also wouldn't count icy burst and frost together as I recall that being a bug that's supposedly going to get fixed (though considering Turbine's record with DDO bugs, maybe you should go ahead and count both....) C


A. True to some extent, some players might already have just that, given a sufficient offer they might be willing to trade them.
B. No, the set of mobs resistant to ice is quite limited. One could even argue that mobs sensitive to ice, e.g. fire elementals, red dragons, are more prominent. The fact that some notable mobs are resistant to acid does not seem to affect the prevalence of minIIs.
C. Supposedly fixed, aye. Still some 15+dps from icy burst.



How are you getting 30dps from the ice ritual but only 2dps from sneak attacks?

Since it would be unfair to only allow the unarmed build to use tharnes. I.e. the 2dps stated is the 2dps the unarmed monster gets on top of what the khopesh wielding monster gets due to higher attack speed.



Without the icy ritual, the optimally geared and played unarmed build still does less DPS than the khopesh variant using greensteels against 0% fort.

You are not looking at things broadly and objectively. If you're going to state a lot of fictional conditions which generally might not be true, do it for both sides.
Not having bard+prayer will cost the khopesh monster wielder 11 dps more than the unarmed monster.
Not fighting a FE will cost the khopesh monster wielder 6.5 dps more than the unarmed monster.
And thus the unarmed monster would have a noticable dps advantage over the khopesh monster in some situations and with certain party compositions. I.e. the khopesh monster would have a advantage over the unarmed monster against ice resistant FE mobs without fortification in a party with a full bard and someone to keep prayer up and not touching weighted wraps with a 10foot pole.

Secondly and more importantly, what goes for the monster regarding relative strengths of khopesh vs. unarmed cannot be used as a blanket statement for the relative strengths of khopesh vs. unarmed. The monster sports +10% attack speed bonus that doesn't work with unarmed, it also sports some fairly large straight additions to base damage which will favor khopesh against 0% fort, there are other possible builds.



Throw some +1 Holy GBs (give or take the icy ritual if you'd like) onto the khopesh build and its DPS will increase.
...
Throw some comparable weapons onto the other builds and this build will fall back towards the middle of the pack.

Yes, but then one could of course argue that holy greater bane khopeshes are somewhat rare and that the risia event is over ;)
A unarmed build would likely strive to obtain alignment greaterbanes to a larger extent than a armed builds due to it being the only good option they have.
A khopesh build would likely settle for GS, the difference would be quite minor and khopesh are way more rare than wraps.




The build above would lose DPS by using greensteel handwraps over +1 Holy GBs.

There are other builds than the monster. Against 0% fort it's situational wether it would lose or gain dps, i.e. same same but different. Against higher than 0% fort there is no question that unarmed would be better. Even for a build heavily favoring khopesh, unarmed would generally be better.



Adding favored enemy, sneak attack, and haste boost makes it just as reliant on those things as many of the other common DPS builds, especially considering the monk has to do all of the above while simultaneously working ki strikes.

It does in no way make it just as reliant on those things simply because those things compose a relatively minor proportion of total dps, which is not nearly the case for most other common DPS builds.



I have a good keyboard. I have an embarrassing amount of experience typing. My fingers get tired spamming four ki strikes on raid bosses.

If you press a button and nothing happens because of lag, how would pressing that button with more experience help? Granted, you can press it again and again, faster and harder (that's what she said) but that leads to cramps.

Using a keyboard/mouse with macro capabilities to spam the button a couple of times while pressed could be a way to cope with lag, having several different buttons mapping to the same strike and/or mouse buttons could be ways for you to cope with getting tired.
You being unable to spam the strikes doesn't imply that it is impossible to spam strikes.



This was quite possibly the most serious statement I made in my entire post. Fighters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1xxmmdxf40) and barbarians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTrD-S030sM&fmt=22) can quite easily match and exceed 500 points of damage, MUCH more frequently than once every fifteen seconds.

I already mentioned SoS and yet again, having a high chance to crit doesn't imply that you can do it on demand, just like I wrote in my previous post. The fact that they have high crits is irrelevant unless you look at the whole picture composed of all things adding up to dps. Apples and oranges yknoes ;)
And if you have looked at those vids, how close to perfect twitch are the barb and fighter, respectively?



The unarmed builds in the DPS calculations you link to would lose DPS by using greensteel handwraps.

Some notable mobs do have fortification. I do not dispute that some builds can achieve same same but different dps with both khopesh and unarmed against 0% fort. This is not true for all builds, go back and read e.g. the Dominator thread, and mobs with fortification is a reality though.



If you've got Holy GBs, they're a better choice for every build.

Not necessarily, they need to bypass DR in some cases, i.e. you might want a couple of transmuting greater bane as well as ToD rings or 20 paladin levels.



My point is that monks (or any unarmed combat characters) are stuck with randomized handwraps from level 1 to 20.

At level 12 every other character can start using greensteel weapons. A
Unarmed gets ToD rings at 18 after grinding for boots and then grinding for the rings themselves. B
Unarmed forgoes the +2 exceptional stat bonuses that every other class puts on ToD rings to pair with ideal GB weapons to even come close to reaching DPS competitive with weapons that other classes have been using since level 12.C
And then at 20 other classes get epic weapons while the unarmed users are still stuck with randomized wraps.D


Being "stuck with" randomized items is not necessarily a bad thing. For one they can in some cases be better if more inconvenient than named counterparts.
A. All my characters can start using a icyburst dwarven axe of greater reptilian bane at lvl4, there are comparable incomparables to GS that you can use prior to lvl12, on a non TR char.
B. Or who knows, maybe they get some help from guildies and/or alts?
C. Match or surpass.
D. Epic weapons which apart from some rare cases are a down grade from GS.



That's exactly my point. You may not have GB wraps for everything you're fighting, your ki strikes may not work against the current critter, you may be up against something with DR/slash, pierce, it may not be your favored enemy, you may not be getting sneak attacks. A combat style that depends on greater bane blunt weapons and elemental damage for a large portion of its DPS is not what I would call the "most potent and widely applicable fighting style."

Having GBs is just a matter of patience and persistance, at least two ki strikes will fork for a vast majority of mobs, in the situations where only earth strikes give any benefit, monks likely have the advantage over other classes. A barb/rogue might be up against something with fortification, a ranger/paladin might be up against something they don't get extra damage against.

Luckily for unarmed DR bypassable by blunt is much more prevalent than DR bypassable by either slash or pierce.

Unarmed get dps mainly from attack speed and interchangable damage adds. What Evil mobs have a high resistance to all elements and what no-fort neutral mobs have a high resistance to more than 2 elements?




I've read carefully and I've presented my arguments against the DPS calculations on paper, but more importantly I've played the game.

I've struggled to build a monk that can even attempt to compete with my rogue or ranger builds which aren't even max DPS, let alone the barbarians in my guild with an epic SoS.A
I've ransacked Shadow Crypt with friends looking for a way to bypass raid boss DR besides metaline kamas of pure good.B
I've farmed ToD ad nauseum trying to get some decent rings (the ideal ones I have yet to even see drop.)C
I've scoured the auction house daily for a weapon upgrade, only to see any actual improvements listed for millions of platinum.D


I've played as and with my fair share of monks, both good and bad. But I've yet to see any monk tear through mob HP like I've seen forms of all of the other melee classes do. Hell, I've seen some favored souls that could give monks a run for their money in melee DPS.

Your arguments have however not been consistent.
A. Judging from B,C and D you do not fulfill the criteria for a monk to achieve high end dps so this is as expected.
B. Settling for running raids on normal and using a good greater bane would probably be a better alternative to farming shadow crypt. Farming high level content in the hopes of eventually spawning the holy grail of metalline greater bane wraps might also be a good option.
C. Although the ideal rings give a nice ~20 dps boost, you perform close to optimally with suboptimal rings.
D. Obviously an exaggeration since your statement imply prices higher than what is possible on the AH.



I'm just not convinced that monk DPS is where it needs to be considering the current state of the game.

It is and it isn't.

It can be but getting there might be a wee bit too difficult.

I'm not claiming that monks easily can achieve worthwhile dps, you need to know your build and know your equipment. You need to farm for items and scour the AH to get a somewhat decent damage output, vet perspective, and despite that you need some friends not minding you piking raids for a couple of weeks to get a good damage output. Then you need to find the holy grail to get good damage output in situations where you need to bypass DR.

The devouts were not a solution to the problem with bypassing DR, they're too tedious to obtain for most people and sub par for where they generally would be used.

Having to pike the raid in which you would need the damage adding rings is not exactly perfect either.

[jboyd158]

Technically "Midnight Greetings" should count (monk centered kukri), if not for the int damage mod...

Give us Kung Fu Genius!

[twoton]

Just to point out monks dont just have x2 crits. If they are a monk worth their salt they should have fist of iron which is x3 crit ki strike and, also earth ki strike finisher is a x4 crit.

So if a mob is stunned a monk in windstance using earth ki strikes could do something like this:

earth ki strike 4: (monks base dmg) +16 from ki strike x2 crit

earth ki strike 3: (monks base dmg) +12 from ki strike x2 crit

fist of iron: (monks base dmg) x3 crit

earth finisher: (monks base dmg) x4 crit

Just to give a visual I will use my monk (max dmg dice roll for figures. but unbuffed)

ki strike 4: monk base dmg 44 +16ki strike +6 bloodstone x2 = 132

ki strike 3: monk base dmg 44 + 12ki strike +6 bloodstone x2 = 124

fist of iron: monk base dmg 44 + 6 bloodstone x3 = 150

earth finisher: monk base dmg 44 +6 bloodstone x4 = 200

these figures are with +4 handwraps weighted 5%. No TOD rings or set items.

Being dark path throw in touch of death ki strike as well for 500 dmg
so in one full attack animation round a monk could drop 1106 points of dmg. So yes could a monks dmg be better yes. Does the dmg even out with with monk survivablity vs. other melee classes. Yes. I think alot of people get caught up in trying to make their monks balanced which in return makes them bad at everything at end game.

What I mean by that is. If a monks stats are even across the board or close to it.

A. they wont have super ac

B. their dc on their monk attacks wont land most of the time

C. they wont have a decent HP bar

D. their dps will be sub par comparred to other melees

If people would build monks like everyone builds other melees and focus on one this that they do well such as: You have intim tanks, dps melees, tactical ftrs, Party support tanks.

Most monks try to do everything and then end up not being able to do anything. Find out what you like about monks and then focus that way. Some people like buffing the party. Others like getting their stunning fist and getting sa dmg and using QP. Some monks pride themselves on their ac and saves and always being the last one standing. Others like myself just love the speed and dmg of the monk.