Ranger Capstone not working as described.

[Velexia]

Level 20 Ranger, with no bonuses to ranged attack speed (like haste, or from armor, or quiver, or set bonuses) fired 56 arrows in 60 seconds.

Level 20 Ranger, with only the Ranger Capstone bonus to ranged attack speed (described as 25%) fired 65 arrows in 60 seconds.

That is an increase of ~14.04% which is a loss of ~78.6% from +25%.

The number of shots fired should have been ~71 (57x1.25).

Yes, I did file a bug report (although I accidentally reported 65 shots as +11.4%)

[shadosatblackphoenix]

Wouldn't be surprised if the bug was the description, not the actual skill.

A little like how they changed ardor and elemental clickies to give as much as 75% bonus to spells, but the description still says 50% for superior.

[Logic]

Yes there is a concensus that the ranger capstone is bugged and only does 10-12%.

I timed 400 arrows and measured the 11% speed increase. This is without haste or any other sort of alacrity.

On a similar note if the capstone actually was 25% then 20 rangers would really be over the top compared to other bow specs. As it is (with the 10-12% alacrity) 20 rangers are fairly similar dps wise to other bow specs (i.e. 18 fighter/1bard/1ranger). So for class balance 10-12% is about right, although they should fix their discription to match how it is actually working (haha we know this isn't going to happen).

[Xyfiel]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

[sephiroth1084]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.
I hope you're just being snarky. Otherwise, that may be the dumbest thing I've read on the forums this week.

[Xyfiel]

I hope you're just being snarky. Otherwise, that may be the dumbest thing I've read on the forums this week.

Until someone proves my hours of testing multiple ranged weapons over the last year since we could level to 20 on Risia is incorrect, I will continue posting "dumb" information.

Or you could check my post history, all the way back to being the first level 20 Ranger on Risia, and see this has been known for a year.

[Spookyaction]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

You can shoot at least 100 arrows without reloading right ?

[UltraMonk2]

You can shoot at least 100 arrows without reloading right ?

Reloading a bow is the act of pulling an arrow from the quiver and nocking it in the bow.

[Spookyaction]

Reloading a bow is the act of pulling an arrow from the quiver and nocking it in the bow.

That seems strange because i get a message when i run out of a stack of arrows that i reloaded 100 arrows. I dont see that kind of verbiage in between shots.

[dunklezhan]

Until someone proves my hours of testing multiple ranged weapons over the last year since we could level to 20 on Risia is incorrect, I will continue posting "dumb" information.

Or you could check my post history, all the way back to being the first level 20 Ranger on Risia, and see this has been known for a year.

Don't think you were being called dumb, Xy, or your testing being called into question. Think the 'dumbness' is in the non-intuitive nature of the ability description. It is not unreasonable to think from the description that it refers to a 25% increase in the Rate of Fire, including draw>nock>pull>release, not just pull>release.

Its been confirmed many times over that you are correct. But it's (the situation, not you or your testing) still stupid that this is the case.

[UltraMonk2]

That seems strange because i get a message when i run out of a stack of arrows that i reloaded 100 arrows. I dont see that kind of verbiage in between shots.

There are two types of reloading in action when using a bow.

1) The act of pulling an arrow from your quiver and nocking it into your bow.

2) Putting a stack of arrows into your quiver (or in the case of DDO automatically placing a stack of arrows into your active quiver slot, which is the slot above the actual slot where your quiver sits)

I think it is pretty obvious that if we saw Reloading in between every single shot it would get rather annoying. So instead it lets you know when you reload a stack of arrows into your active quiver slot.

[Deathseeker]

Im hoping the error is in the description because they plan to raise ALL ranged ROF by another 15%! That would make the capstone appropriate in terms of class balance, but help ranged to be more competitive in general.

As is it sounds now (I don't have both), a ranger Arcane Archer and a Fighter multiclass Arcane Archer appear reasonably balanced to each other and provides a choice between the two. If they fix it, then I believe only Ranger 20 AA's would be worth building, which is bad design.

So, change the description to 10 or 15 or whatever it really is, then boost all ranged ROF by 10 or 15, and we'll be on our way to success. Oh, and fix deepwood sniper while yer at it!

[Diib]

It seems that as far as haste boosts go, a good rule of thumb is just to divide the number by two. Testing fighter haste boost on ranged attacks for an elf fighter kensai aa seems to show only about half the increase expected (so ~15-20% increase for 20 secs from fighter haste boost IV).

[Zombiekenny]

It also doesn't stack with haste fully, making it almost pointless, since you get about the same attack speed with haste/without capstone as without haste/with capstone, and like 2 seconds better per hundred arrows if you have both. Since it is exceedingly rare that you won't have haste, it makes it a waste.

[Velexia]

Yes there is a concensus that the ranger capstone is bugged and only does 10-12%.

I timed 400 arrows and measured the 11% speed increase. This is without haste or any other sort of alacrity.

On a similar note if the capstone actually was 25% then 20 rangers would really be over the top compared to other bow specs. As it is (with the 10-12% alacrity) 20 rangers are fairly similar dps wise to other bow specs (i.e. 18 fighter/1bard/1ranger). So for class balance 10-12% is about right, although they should fix their discription to match how it is actually working (haha we know this isn't going to happen).

What you are saying here essentially is "Rangers should not be rewarded for staying pure, their capstone should not make them special."

[Velexia]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

In D&D/DDO that makes as much sense as saying that Melee Alacrity does not count pulling back your weapon in preparation to strike. You are in denial.

[Velexia]

Reloading a bow is the act of pulling an arrow from the quiver and nocking it in the bow.

Unless you have a Gatling Bow! Rawr! (Requires a piker to feed the arrow belt through smoothly while you hold down the trigger).

[Lorz]

In D&D/DDO that makes as much sense as saying that Melee Alacrity does not count pulling back your weapon in preparation to strike. You are in denial.

And yet his info is based on lots of real testing. Yours and several others is just butt hurt up here on the forums. I don't blame you for not being happy about it....but don't blame the guy who has tested it and is just stating what he has proven over almost a year. In other words don't shoot the messenger. He's just reporting the facts.

Jeez people. Little butt hurt aren't we.

[Zombiekenny]

And yet his info is based on lots of real testing. Yours and several others is just butt hurt up here on the forums. I don't blame you for not being happy about it....but don't blame the guy who has tested it and is just stating what he has proven over almost a year. In other words don't shoot the messenger. He's just reporting the facts.

Jeez people. Little butt hurt aren't we.

Its tested as not working by the description, that doesn't mean that that reason was why the description seems wrong....

[Velexia]

And yet his info is based on lots of real testing. Yours and several others is just butt hurt up here on the forums. I don't blame you for not being happy about it....but don't blame the guy who has tested it and is just stating what he has proven over almost a year. In other words don't shoot the messenger. He's just reporting the facts.

Jeez people. Little butt hurt aren't we.

What part of "I fired exactly 57 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions, then fired exactly 65 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions" is not real testing?

He wasn't reporting facts, he was trolling, he admitted it just below his first post. Try to follow along with the conversation, oy.

[Aschbart]

The original message is correct in that there is a bug. There's no denying. In D&D, 'reloading' a bow takes exactly zero time, nada, niente! And there is no info anywhere in DDO that states otherwise. The Feat Rapid Reload applies to xbows only, not to bows. The reason is that while xbows do indeed take their time reloading, bows do not. If there were, there would be no reason for rapid reload to not apply to bows, or otherwise for a like feat for bows to exist.

The info DDO provides does nowhere state there is any difference to PnP rules with respect to reloading, and if there is a difference, then this lack of info is a bug. If it is meant to work like in PnP, then the attack speed bonuses don't work as advertised, and that is the bug. However you turn the problem around, it is a bug and requires fixing. Either on behalf of the info provided, or on behalf of the effect. (or both maybe)

[Shade]

This has been discussed numerous times and it's working as intended.

Regardless, it's not a unique issue to the ranger capstone.

Haste, Madstone, and all other boosts to attack speed never give the exact amount they advertise. Not to ranged, THF or TWF.

It's a limitation of the game engine based on animation delays.

Tecnically speaking all the bonuses work and provide the correct amounts, just the animation delays cause the numbers to be often lower then you'd expect.

[Elfvyra]

The original message is correct in that there is a bug. There's no denying. In D&D, 'reloading' a bow takes exactly zero time, nada, niente! And there is no info anywhere in DDO that states otherwise. The Feat Rapid Reload applies to xbows only, not to bows. The reason is that while xbows do indeed take their time reloading, bows do not. If there were, there would be no reason for rapid reload to not apply to bows, or otherwise for a like feat for bows to exist.

The info DDO provides does nowhere state there is any difference to PnP rules with respect to reloading, and if there is a difference, then this lack of info is a bug. If it is meant to work like in PnP, then the attack speed bonuses don't work as advertised, and that is the bug. However you turn the problem around, it is a bug and requires fixing. Either on behalf of the info provided, or on behalf of the effect. (or both maybe)


The FEAT Rangers get at lvl 2 is this one... Rapid Shot
Usage: Passive
You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.

This FEAT should make it almost impossible for anyone without it to approach the RoF of a Ranger.

[Kromize]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

First of all, you don't fire an arrow(unless your trying to burn it), you release it...

Second, if your counting it like that, then the attack speed is instantaneous, and there should be a 0% increase from the 25% bonus to attack speed. All it takes to attack is to release the string, and reloading is putting the arrow in(in this game). Though it would be interesting if when you clicked to attack, you pulled the arrow back, and then released, which would make your argument possibly acceptable, but...no, in this game the attack is releasing and reloading. Ever notice that you ALWAYS reload after you release an arrow? Really annoying when your trying to swap to melee weapons... And so, you're wrong.

[sirdanile]

What part of "I fired exactly 57 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions, then fired exactly 65 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions" is not real testing?

He wasn't reporting facts, he was trolling, he admitted it just below his first post. Try to follow along with the conversation, oy.

1. That is testing, but it's one test which is basically confirming Xyfiel's previous tests.

2. I don't see him trolling as what he said is pertaining to the discussion at hand, sure it might be useful if he linked you the tests himself but he did tell you how to easily find and access them.


First of all, you don't fire an arrow(unless your trying to burn it), you release it...

Second, if your counting it like that, then the attack speed is instantaneous, and there should be a 0% increase from the 25% bonus to attack speed. All it takes to attack is to release the string, and reloading is putting the arrow in(in this game). Though it would be interesting if when you clicked to attack, you pulled the arrow back, and then released, which would make your argument possibly acceptable, but...no, in this game the attack is releasing and reloading. Ever notice that you ALWAYS reload after you release an arrow? Really annoying when your trying to swap to melee weapons... And so, you're wrong.

1. What the broccoli did you just say? That entire post made no sense at all.

2. If I get the gist of what you're trying to babble you admit the existence of a delay when reloading an arrow and then attempt to deny the evidence from both Velexia and Xyfiel because it shouldnt work as it does.

3. Yes I have noticed the reload is automatic after fireing (releasing, they are synonyms) and causes a noticeable delay when swapping to melee, but that same delay is being applied before your next shot, rapid shot might be reducing this to not be as noticeable..


From my experience playing an Arcane archer I noticed my ROF does seem to increase about 10-15% from before I took the capstone to after, haste does appear to not stack entirely with the capstone, which I believe may be multiplicative in nature rather than additive.

[Velexia]

This has been discussed numerous times and it's working as intended.

Show me the Dev that says "yes, 25% is secret code for 14%" and I will believe that line of BS you just fed me.



It's a limitation of the game engine based on animation delays.


If the script they have is only giving 14%, and it's advertised as 25%, then obviously they need to increase it until the actual effect is in line with the description. If adding 25% only gives 14%, maybe they need to script it to add 44.6% instead, to get an actual increase of 25% as described. It's not an impossible thing to do, it's just something that isn't being worked on right now.

Why do people continue to make posts about it...? Because it is still not working correctly.


I encourage people to keep bringing up problems they see, even if they're old ones, because if they're bothering people then it helps us to move things up/down our "here's what's on the plate to work on, get to work" list.

[Logic]

Alacrity bonuses almost never add the full amount to melee or especially ranged attacks. This is known.

But this is not "working as intended". Just ignore the trolls and report the bugs.

Descriptions should match their effects
15% haste alacrity should not give 12%, it should give 15%
25% ranged alacrity should not give 10-14%, it should give 25%

[bobbryan2]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

Lol.. I guess every other attack speed bonus in this game is bugged then. After all.. you're only attacking while swinging. Returning your arm to attack posture isn't attacking.

[Logic]

Lol.. I guess every other attack speed bonus in this game is bugged then. After all.. you're only attacking while swinging. Returning your arm to attack posture isn't attacking.

haha

[krud]

1. What the broccoli did you just say? That entire post made no sense at all.

2. If I get the gist of what you're trying to babble you admit the existence of a delay when reloading an arrow and then attempt to deny the evidence from both Velexia and Xyfiel because it shouldnt work as it does.

3. Yes I have noticed the reload is automatic after fireing (releasing, they are synonyms) and causes a noticeable delay when swapping to melee, but that same delay is being applied before your next shot, rapid shot might be reducing this to not be as noticeable..


From my experience playing an Arcane archer I noticed my ROF does seem to increase about 10-15% from before I took the capstone to after, haste does appear to not stack entirely with the capstone, which I believe may be multiplicative in nature rather than additive.
it seems it was a respons to this:

"Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking."

That implies that there are two mechanics that control ranged rof; releasing the shot and reloading the bow. Releasing the shot should be an instantaneous affect, you just let go of the string. I do not see any delay when pressing the fire button and the arrow being shot. Even when standing still with the bow down at my side, the shot is instantaneous when the fire button is hit. All the delay comes from the time after the shot is fired to the time the bow is drawn (which is the reload process).

There is an animation when you release the shot and the hand goes backward, and then it starts reaching for an arrow. If they want to say that short sequence is part of the 'attack' animation, and the 'reload' starts when he actually begins reaching for the next arrow, that seems very anally technical. If only that short animation is what is affected by the +25% ranged alacrity, then Turbine has a real interesting way of determining bow mechanics, to say the least.

[Xyfiel]

Never said I thought it was a smart way of doing it, only that this was the case. As someone else said, don't shoot the messenger. For comparison:

Rapid shot: You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.

Rapid reload: You reload a crossbow faster than normal.

Master of archery: Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can fire any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your attack speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Rapid shot specifically says "fire" and "reload". Rapid reload only says "reload", and Master of archery only says "fire". There is a precedence here of proper wording, and Master of Archery does NOT increase reload time, in game or in definition.

[Zombiekenny]

Never said I thought it was a smart way of doing it, only that this was the case. As someone else said, don't shoot the messenger. For comparison:

Rapid shot: You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.

Rapid reload: You reload a crossbow faster than normal.

Master of archery: Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can fire any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your attack speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Rapid shot specifically says "fire" and "reload". Rapid reload only says "reload", and Master of archery only says "fire". There is a precedence here of proper wording, and Master of Archery does NOT increase reload time, in game or in definition.
Or, reload could refer to the case where the ranged weapon in question was a crossbow

[krud]

Never said I thought it was a smart way of doing it, only that this was the case. As someone else said, don't shoot the messenger. For comparison:

Rapid shot: You can fire ranged attacks faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon.

Rapid reload: You reload a crossbow faster than normal.

Master of archery: Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can fire any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your attack speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Rapid shot specifically says "fire" and "reload". Rapid reload only says "reload", and Master of archery only says "fire". There is a precedence here of proper wording, and Master of Archery does NOT increase reload time, in game or in definition.
What is the firing animation then? There is no delay when you hit the fire button. The attack is instantaneous. Is that backward motion of the hand part of the 'attack' animation? Can you really time that motion separately from the remaining reload animation when determining what is actually increased by 25%?

[sephiroth1084]

Pointless to bug report it, it is working exactly as described. Try reading it again.

Through extensive practice and incredible focus you can FIRE any ranged weapon at amazing speed without losing accuracy. You gain a 25% competence bonus to your ATTACK speed when using any ranged weapon, including thrown weapons.

Reloading isn't firing, reloading isn't attacking.

Don't think you were being called dumb, Xy, or your testing being called into question. Think the 'dumbness' is in the non-intuitive nature of the ability description. It is not unreasonable to think from the description that it refers to a 25% increase in the Rate of Fire, including draw>nock>pull>release, not just pull>release.

Its been confirmed many times over that you are correct. But it's (the situation, not you or your testing) still stupid that this is the case.

Thanks, that's sort of what I was saying.

The idea that an improvement to rate of fire wouldn't improve the speed of drawing and nocking an arrow as well as the speed of drawing and firing is ridiculous. If that is how such increases are functioning, they clearly shouldn't be. The implication that this is WAI, and statement that we shouldn't bug report it is what I took issue with. If you were being snarky, I'm with you, but it seemed like you were not, in which case, my original comment stands (and that's why I made a qualitative statement).

[Kromize]

1. What the broccoli did you just say? That entire post made no sense at all.

Been a while since you've been in an English class? It's not a language you want to forget how to comprehend.

[dunklezhan]

First of all, you don't fire an arrow(unless your trying to burn it), you release it...



BWAHAHAH! Spot the re-enactor (I think you call them something different in the states possibly)! :)

Every year I work on a Living History project for 7-11 year olds, Tudor period (1545 to be precise). This is a regular thing we have to drill into ourselves to make sure we don't slip up - or so that if the person playing the Archer does slip up, the person playing the Gunner can mock him and agree that burning the **** bow is definitely the best course of action because the cannon is so much better...

That and making sure we don't say 'ok' are the two biggest linguistic screw ups an actor is likely to make during the project.

Anyway. Off topic, I know, but getting the 'you *shoot* a bow, moron' lecture three months early amused me no end!

[kurand]

Yes there is a concensus that the ranger capstone is bugged and only does 10-12%.

I timed 400 arrows and measured the 11% speed increase. This is without haste or any other sort of alacrity.

On a similar note if the capstone actually was 25% then 20 rangers would really be over the top compared to other bow specs. As it is (with the 10-12% alacrity) 20 rangers are fairly similar dps wise to other bow specs (i.e. 18 fighter/1bard/1ranger). So for class balance 10-12% is about right, although they should fix their discription to match how it is actually working (haha we know this isn't going to happen).



Lol,20 pure ranger bow dps is supposed to be the same as a bow spec fighter whatever?

You serious?

You're really serious?

OMFG your serious?

W T F is your problem?

Please for the love of god try not to be such an idiot.Someone goes the full way to ranger for one reason,for the capstone,what reason would there be to go full 20 ranger if the capstone only allowed you to be as good as someone who was not a 20 ranger?

Please,stop trying to compare classes,you obviously do not understand the concept of class balance.

[Visty]

Lol,20 pure ranger bow dps is supposed to be the same as a bow spec fighter whatever?

You serious?

You're really serious?

OMFG your serious?

W T F is your problem?

Please for the love of god try not to be such an idiot.Someone goes the full way to ranger for one reason,for the capstone,what reason would there be to go full 20 ranger if the capstone only allowed you to be as good as someone who was not a 20 ranger?

Please,stop trying to compare classes,you obviously do not understand the concept of class balance.

well, tbh a well built ranged barbarian or fighter is way better in the current endgame as a pure ranger as there are more enemy types then a ranger can choose as fav enemy
they might shoot 2% slower but deal 10% more damage (numbers made up to show the point)

[kurand]

And yet his info is based on lots of real testing. Yours and several others is just butt hurt up here on the forums. I don't blame you for not being happy about it....but don't blame the guy who has tested it and is just stating what he has proven over almost a year. In other words don't shoot the messenger. He's just reporting the facts.

Jeez people. Little butt hurt aren't we.

WoW,calling us butthurt when a ******** statement is stated and people point out the wording is ********.

He is makin an assumption that the loss is based upon reloading,there is no way to ever prove that the wording states that it is reloading,simply because it does not state that something is being reloaded.

Weapon alacrity to ATTACK is the 4 words he is using to base his reload theory on and to base a theory on those 4 words is stupid and biased.He is a ******** envy monger who wants a fighter with the feats and skills of a fighter to be able to use a ranged weapon as good as a capstone ranger,which is stupid at best and selfish in the least.

You,not sure what you are saying,it blows my mind that you would actually believe something like reload speed needs to be factored in at all to a descriptor that has no mention of reload speed.I gotta wonder what your issue is,are you a second account for the guy telling us the loss is due to reload? or are you just some stupid schmuck who is trying to say fighter based characters should be equal to a ranger capped character with ranged weapons and willing to do anything to try and get that to happen?

Rangers in their lore in nearly all games and stories have always been superior bow users and good melee users,while the fighters have always been good bow users and superior melee users.

[kurand]

well, tbh a well built ranged barbarian or fighter is way better in the current endgame as a pure ranger as there are more enemy types then a ranger can choose as fav enemy
they might shoot 2% slower but deal 10% more damage (numbers made up to show the point)

Which is further proof that the capstone is broken.

There is no reason if the capstone is broken and other classes are equal and/or do more damage at 20 with ranged weapons to fully cap at 20 as a ranger.You'd be better off going 13/7 ranger anything.

In my opinion,the capstone should reflect the prestige class you took,if you went tempest you should have that alacrity to melee,if you went AA that should go to ranged.

But to try and prove a theory is correct fully knowing it is a broken capstone so that you can make a 18/1/1 fighter based build for ranged and do the same or more damage as ranger capped character is retardation.

The people saying it is okay are selfish and arrogant individuals,so self centered they do what they can to prove something is right and add in theories so that verbage is supposedly on their side.

[dunklezhan]

I think people are taking this waaaay too seriously. Is there any need to resort to insulting each other? Bad form people, bad form.

The key question is: is the Capstone working as written in the description?

The answer is: it depends on what is meant by 'attack' in the description. If it means Rate of Fire, then it is not working. If it just means purely the attack speed and not the reload speed, then it is working.

The follow on question is: can we deduce for sure what the dev's meant by 'attack'?

The answer is: Not for sure, no. However there is precedent in that the Rapid Fire feat mentions attack and reload, the capstone just mentions attack.


I would say that a reasonable person would read the capstone description and expect to see a 25% rate of fire increase. If the dev's do not intend that to be the case they should amend the description, even if its adding a line that says 'note this refers to attack only, reload rates are unaffected'. If the devs do intend the increase to apply to the Rate of Fire, then they should fix the capstone mechanic, and soon.

If anyone has a link to a thread where a Dev has answered or part answered these questions, please link it.

But I don't see the value in insulting each other. It just speaks badly of all concerned. I would agree with the person who said that Rangers at L20 should be superior bow users to Fighters, and that Fighters should be superior Melee. That is how it has always been in PnP. I know this is not PnP but that is what it is based on. However, I would not draw the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with this is in some way 'stupid'.

[Cylinwolf]

W T F is your problem?

Please for the love of god try not to be such an idiot.

Please,stop trying to compare classes,you obviously do not understand the concept of class balance.

WoW,calling us butthurt when a ******** statement is stated and people point out the wording is ********.

or are you just some stupid schmuck who is trying to say fighter based characters should be equal to a ranger capped character with ranged weapons and willing to do anything to try and get that to happen?

The people saying it is okay are selfish and arrogant individuals,so self centered they do what they can to prove something is right and add in theories so that verbage is supposedly on their side.

Wow. Someone didn't have their Wheaties this morning.

[Logic]

wow this thread is getting so angry!

It would be nice if the descriptions of items and feats was accurate. But considering the in-game evasion feat has not stated that it is limited to no/light armor for the last 4 years I think there is very little hope for the ranger capstone to be updated :P

[Lorz]

What part of "I fired exactly 57 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions, then fired exactly 65 Arrows in 60 seconds under these conditions" is not real testing?

He wasn't reporting facts, he was trolling, he admitted it just below his first post. Try to follow along with the conversation, oy.

Vel...please reread the thread. Nowhere above does X say he is trolling.
Thanks for neg rep. Whoever did just proves my statement about the hurt..but I guess that's all I can expect from emotionally invested. I've got a pair of rangers myself.

Doesnt change the fact the X has done a lot of testing and offered a reasonable explanation.....drop you bug report and go hold your breath.

/heck mangled that message badly. Fixed now.

[Lorz]

Show me the Dev that says "yes, 25% is secret code for 14%" and I will believe that line of BS you just fed me.



If the script they have is only giving 14%, and it's advertised as 25%, then obviously they need to increase it until the actual effect is in line with the description. If adding 25% only gives 14%, maybe they need to script it to add 44.6% instead, to get an actual increase of 25% as described. It's not an impossible thing to do, it's just something that isn't being worked on right now.

Why do people continue to make posts about it...? Because it is still not working correctly.

It's not working how you think it should...but hey let's get mad because some of us don't take your side.
I mean people still post up about deploying chests...so by your logic it must not be working right either.

I would love for a dev to clarify this......will you concede the point iftold by Turbine it is working as intended? Or is it only your way or the world is wrong?

/if turbine states it broken as you describe then I will concede the point. And I won't get all butt hurt over it....it is just a game.

[RobbinB]

This has been discussed numerous times and it's working as intended.

Regardless, it's not a unique issue to the ranger capstone.

Haste, Madstone, and all other boosts to attack speed never give the exact amount they advertise. Not to ranged, THF or TWF.

It's a limitation of the game engine based on animation delays.

Tecnically speaking all the bonuses work and provide the correct amounts, just the animation delays cause the numbers to be often lower then you'd expect.

I can "accept" this explanation and see that it makes some sense. But I'm a little surprised that just because there is an explanation, that a described 25% attack speed increase becoming an actual 10% increase is considered "acceptable". Not quite 25% because of ya-da-ya-da, ok. But when the actual increase is that far off, isn't that just one more tick in the checklist of "how incompetent do I view Turbine and what exactly do they put in their coffee over there anyway?".

It's great that we have the explanation, but the epic fail nature of 25% becoming 10% is not really acceptable in my book. (Or maybe I'm just rankled that they would actually call that discrepancy WAI...)

[Lorz]

I can "accept" this explanation and see that it makes some sense. But I'm a little surprised that just because there is an explanation, that a described 25% attack speed increase becoming an actual 10% increase is considered "acceptable". Not quite 25% because of ya-da-ya-da, ok. But when the actual increase is that far off, isn't that just one more tick in the checklist of "how incompetent do I view Turbine and what exactly do they put in their coffee over there anyway?".

It's great that we have the explanation, but the epic fail nature of 25% becoming 10% is not really acceptable in my book. (Or maybe I'm just rankled that they would actually call that discrepancy WAI...)

A lot of folks get upset over the math. In the end it's a game and it is an increase in attack. Try not to focus on it worrying about the exact %. Like many things in the game people get hung up on a number. Try just enjoying the game....Turbine knows what the actual increase is. They wrote it. Drop a bug report if your really worried. Either they correct how you want or they don't. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.


Lord knows I've taken enough neg rep over just stating the above. As stated some people are way to emotionally invested in such a minor overall point. But then again some people are just silly.

[RobbinB]

A lot of folks get upset over the math. In the end it's a game and it is an increase in attack. Try not to focus on it worrying about the exact %. Like many things in the game people get hung up on a number. Try just enjoying the game....Turbine knows what the actual increase is. They wrote it. Drop a bug report if your really worried. Either they correct how you want or they don't. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

Lord knows I've taken enough neg rep over just stating the above. As stated some people are way to emotionally invested in such a minor overall point. But then again some people are just silly.

I'm not sure that we should get overly "upset" about it either. As in "hey Turbine, you moron's think 14% attack increase is ok when you said it was 25%. I'm leaving the game, now. Dooooommmmm."

And I'm not the type to get upset about exact numbers. If the 25% was 24% or 23% or 22%, well ok, that rounds off to 25% sort of. But 25 becoming 10-14 isn't even in the ballpark. And if they are going to say that's WAI then I think it's only fair for us to ask "do you really believe that's acceptable?". "Is that really close enough for you guys?" "Is that the level of attention to detail we can expect from Turbine?".

So yeah, no reason to scream bloody murder, but I'm not gonna let it just slide by either without comment.

[grodon9999]

It should work as advertised. it doesn't. it should other be fixed for correctly labels a 14% increase.

[Jasam01]

I just read through this and I didn't seem to see an answer to this problem.

If it means 'fireing speed' and reload speed is seperate.
Well, heres some very very fake numbers but the problem should be obvious

Reload animation (get arrow, put it in bow) time = 1s
Fire Animation(release strong) = 0s.

So.... exactly what part of the animation is being improved. What part is the 'attack' animation that is boosted.

[MrCow]

Level 20 Ranger, with no bonuses to ranged attack speed (like haste, or from armor, or quiver, or set bonuses) fired 56 arrows in 60 seconds.

Level 20 Ranger, with only the Ranger Capstone bonus to ranged attack speed (described as 25%) fired 65 arrows in 60 seconds.

That is an increase of ~14.04% which is a loss of ~78.6% from +25%.

65 / 56 = ~1.1607 (or +16.07% increase to attack speed). That number of 14.04% isn't quite correct. This has importance for a bit of my math later on.



The thing that people have mentioned (but not yet pinpointed) is that the reload speed is to blame on why this occurs. If one compares changes in attack speed at the same BAB measuring the individual animations (shoot animation and reload animation) then one will notice something interesting. Ranged attacks in DDO gain full bonus attack speed bonus to the shooting animation (including crossbows, bows, or thrown projectiles). However, the reload animation only benefits about ~50% from attack speed bonuses (I haven't tested if the reverse is true on attack speed penalties).

So, lets break down the math a bit for this on the bow with Master of Archery (+25% competence bonus to ranged attack speed), in which about ~30% of the full bow attack animation is firing the arrow and ~70% of the full bow attack animation is reloading the arrow.

Animation Part attack speed change

Speed Change = Percentage Animation Part takes in Full Animation * Attack Speed Change * Any other specific modifiers

Fire Animation - Bow

Speed Change = 30% * 25%
Speed Change = 0.30 * 0.25
Speed Change = 0.075

Reload Animation - Bow

Speed Change = 70% * 25% * 0.5
Speed Change = 0.70 * 0.25 * 0.5
Speed Change = 0.70 * 0.125
Speed Change = 0.0875

Total Animation - Bow

Speed Change (Total) = Fire Animation + Reload Animation
Speed Change (Total) = 0.075+ 0.0875
Speed Change (Total) = 0.1625
Speed Change (Total) = 16.25%



So, based on this theory of DDO ranged weaponry reloading at 50% of the attack speed modifier I get that Master of Archery grants a total of a 16.25% increase to bow speed, which is close to your value of 16.07% (which is about a 1.1% difference).

[krud]

in which about ~30% of the full bow attack animation is firing the arrow and ~70% of the full bow attack animation is reloading the arrow.
How did you arrive at those values? What part of the animation constitutes 'firing'? As far as I can tell the firing is instantaneous. ...or is this simply a case of finding numbers to fit the result?

[Xyfiel]

How did you arrive at those values? What part of the animation constitutes 'firing'? As far as I can tell the firing is instantaneous. ...or is this simply a case of finding numbers to fit the result?

Maybe Mr. Cow hacked into the servers and created a Mohawk, err found out the correct range speeds. Maybe Mr. Cow is pretty handy with computers, had that occured to you?

[Jasam01]

Don't be so hostile Xyfiel. It's a good question, and that is the obvious other answer. I'm rather curious as well where the numbers actualy came from. I can't see a way to do it with math alone, since you end up with a problem of needing to know which abilities affect what part of the animation, which this topic has shown to be unclear/possably misleading.

As far as I can tell, these numbers may have been chosen because they fit with the posters theory, not because the posters theory is based apon them.

[MrCow]

How did you arrive at those values?

By measuring the time from arrow being fired, to the time the hand goes to "collect an arrow from a quiver", to finishing the reload via frame by frame analysis of recorded animations.

Firing a bow-based projectile has the shoot animation (arrow gets fired and the hand moves backwards) followed by the reload animation (hand twists to go to the quiver, pulls a phantom arrow, and nocks it).

[Xyfiel]

Don't be so hostile Xyfiel. It's a good question, and that is the obvious other answer. I'm rather curious as well where the numbers actualy came from. I can't see a way to do it with math alone, since you end up with a problem of needing to know which abilities affect what part of the animation, which this topic has shown to be unclear/possably misleading.

As far as I can tell, these numbers may have been chosen because they fit with the posters theory, not because the posters theory is based apon them.

That wasn't hostile, that was a joke.

[krud]

By measuring the time from arrow being fired, to the time the hand goes to "collect an arrow from a quiver", to finishing the reload via frame by frame analysis of recorded animations.

Firing a bow-based projectile has the shoot animation (arrow gets fired and the hand moves backwards) followed by the reload animation (hand twists to go to the quiver, pulls a phantom arrow, and nocks it).
OK, thanks. I figured that backward motion of the hand must be part of the 'firing' animation, but had no way to confirm it. I asked earlier in the thread if that was the case, but nobody gave any response, till now.

[Velexia]

65 / 56 = ~1.1607 (or +16.07% increase to attack speed). That number of 14.04% isn't quite correct. This has importance for a bit of my math later on.

...

So, based on this theory of DDO ranged weaponry reloading at 50% of the attack speed modifier I get that Master of Archery grants a total of a 16.25% increase to bow speed, which is close to your value of 16.07% (which is about a 1.1% difference).

Looking back at this post, I have no idea how I got to 14%
I'm getting 1.160714286. A very good post which seems to hit the root of the problem.

Thanks =)

[Engar1]

Why would any user care if the animation causes a delay or accept that excuse? So if you go to the bank and start a savings account with 5% interest and they end up giving you 3% you would accept that the difference is just lost in processing?

[oweieie]

Why would any user care if the animation causes a delay or accept that excuse? So if you go to the bank and start a savings account with 5% interest and they end up giving you 3% you would accept that the difference is just lost in processing?

Yes, an attack is a draw, knock, pull and release. There is no question that 25% should be 25%, not 12.5%. The text needs to be fixed, or the speed needs to be fixed.

[blaczero]

You guys are making 1 huge assumption, and basing all further arguments on it. The assumption is this: (and is incorrect)

We attack at 100% speed.

Guess what, we do not. This is obvious considering the capstone says a 25% increase in attack speed, and overall increase from it is only around 11-14%. That means we're around 55% attack speed with 0 alacrity, haste, etc... I'd guess base attack speed (level 1 char with no feats / kit) may be around 40% and rapid adds 15% or so (as a guess). So assuming we're at 55% speed, and we get a 25% increase, that is about 13.75% OVERALL increase.

Depending on how the game engine handles the mechanic, it may be that 100% speed is considered the cap, and all other attack speeds are based on not "going over the 100%" so everything may be brought in line with that.

Obviously this is all my guesstimation, but considering what we do know, this piece of the puzzle fits the best.

[Velexia]

You guys are making 1 huge assumption, and basing all further arguments on it. The assumption is this: (and is incorrect)

We attack at 100% speed.

Guess what, we do not. This is obvious considering the capstone says a 25% increase in attack speed, and overall increase from it is only around 11-14%. That means we're around 55% attack speed with 0 alacrity, haste, etc... I'd guess base attack speed (level 1 char with no feats / kit) may be around 40% and rapid adds 15% or so (as a guess). So assuming we're at 55% speed, and we get a 25% increase, that is about 13.75% OVERALL increase.

Depending on how the game engine handles the mechanic, it may be that 100% speed is considered the cap, and all other attack speeds are based on not "going over the 100%" so everything may be brought in line with that.

Obviously this is all my guesstimation, but considering what we do know, this piece of the puzzle fits the best.

Yes, the assumption is that when I am 100% focused on attacking, I am attacking at 100% speed, and if something gives me a 25% increase to my attack speed, when I focus 100% on attacking, I now attack 25% faster... not 13% faster.

How is this a big assumption?

Also keep in mind that if I attack 200 times in a minute, (at 100% speed) 250 attacks in a minute is a 25% increase. If I slow down to 100 attacks a minute, 125 attacks is still a 25% increase. The increased percentage doesn't change based on how fast I am attacking, only the number of attacks changes.

[Velexia]

I would also like to point out that all attempts to rationalize the difference between a stated 25%, ,or any percent, and the actual percent as the developers being so meticulous as to portion out each part of the firing sequence into... "this part is the attack, and this part is just the draw" is completely ludicrous.

What most likely happened is that a script was edited to adjust something, and percentages became skewed, but no one really noticed before it was published to the current model.... and now no one (developer wise) cares.

[NexEverto]

With U9 around the corner I'm sure it's unlikely, but I'm going to ask. Can we get a Dev comment on this please? I've done testing myself and found a similar result to the ~16% increase (Though in another test I did I did get 12.5% as a lot of people say), not the 25%. Perhaps the wording is questionable and needs to be changed, or perhaps it's just not working right. Without a Dev comment, I don't think this issue will ever have a definite answer.

If any of that didn't make sense, I'm sorry, I'm very tired. :D I'll hopefully remember to post some more useful comments tomorrow, as well as some of the tests I've done over my time playing as an AA.