Summoning wizard help?

[wolfy42]

I'm in the mood to try something new (for me at least).

I have not played around with the new Pale Master PRE at all (or for that matter even played a wizard since the cap was raised!!) and I was thinking of trying to make a summon centered character. This would be a fun concept build and not expected to party that much. The point is to try and get as much use out of summons as possible, and in my experience summon damage does not come close to equaling player damage.

Partying with another player then would nullify the entire point of the build, so it is going to mostly be a solo build.

I don't ever believe in doing "casual" mode for quests...and have been quite fine doing them solo in the past with other builds all the way up the levels and quite often through elite.

This of course may be a bit more challenging since summons generally well.....blow. I don't think I'll be able to do many elite quests at least not till much later.

Ok, first a few rules.

I want to do most of my damage through my summons, not my own spells. That means very little use of firewall etc. I can CC enemies for my minions to kill (and in fact that may almost be required in many instances) but the majority of the damage must come from my minions.

I will though be counting 1 hireling as a minion (it is summoned hehe), so that should help significantly damage wise.

I'm open to multi classing, but I think going pure wizard will both speed up how fast I get my summons, and give me better CC abilities etc as fast as possible.

I plan on going for the PM line to get a Skelly magi (figure that will be the highest damage), summoning the highest monster possible, getting a WF hireling (so I can heal him or her), and going with the full mith/adamantium companion line (Iron,Steel,Mith,Adam = 4 of them at once).

I'm not sure if I can really make a go of it, but it's worth a try and a fun experiment (I have 32 point builds and Veteran status..so starting at lvl 4).

I'm a bit mixed on my choice of race right now. I'm kinda torn between halfling, warforged or human. I'll list my reasons for each.

Halfling could use some extra feats to snag the healing marks...which will let me heal both mechanical summons and non-mechanical summons (not to mention myself) in a pinch. With empower + maximize going of course to make it more effective. Halfling also gets nice sneak attack damage which should be useful with my summons holding so much attention (I hope) or making tons of enemies fall alot etc hehe. Halfling has slightly better saving throws, and I really don't care about str much so thats not a huge problem. Having a high dex for stealth, and the halflings natural stealth advantages will help as well (summons are great for stealth usage!!).

Human gives me another feat, +1 int and con (more toughness bonus as well) nice human versatility (skill boosts for UMD, Saving throw boosts to save vs poison etc). Having another feat lets me snag self sufficient right of the bat (can switch it out later for Necro Spec by 6th level) and get both my Iron and Steel companion at lvl 4 (yummy). That would be far harder to do as halfling (if I want my marks, empower and maximize).

WF of course gives me WF immunites, self healing with repair spells, higher max hp (+4 con all together) and potentially more melee damage abilities later on (power attack bonus once I start using DP clickies).

I think WF would be the easiest to keep alive....but may not be the as good at CC abilities. Drow would actually have a slight advantage in the int department....but Human gets most of the same advantage (+1 int instead of +2), no penalty to con (which I count almost as important as int) and a bonus feat (not to mention I think the humans enhancements are generally more useful to a summoning build then a drows.

My two primary stats are going to be int and con. While I like the halfling advantages that is making mean lean a bit towards WF or Human. Human would have a higher UMD naturally which makes wand usage a bit easier early on....but WF would not need to use wands at all to heal himself at least (just using them to heal fleshies).

If I do go the WF route I'm thinking of going with these stats:

Str 08 (I don't care about it at all, it'll be boosted with a +2 tome to 10...and then with bulls strength to 14 so I can carry stuff).

Dex 08 (again, don't care. AC isn't going to matter at all)

Con 20 (16 points....more hp the better)

In 18 (16 points.....higher DC I can get the better...CC is VERY important)

Wis/Cha 06 (not important at all).

All level up stats into int for highest DC possible. This will help with my death spell later and with my CC spells throughout the game.

Since damage will not be a focus of this build I'll go with Extend, Quicken, spell focus nec, GSF Nec, toughness, SF enchantment, GSF enchantment, Spell pen, GSP, Mental toughness, Greater mental toughness, heightening. If I somehow ever make it to 20 I'll probably ditch Greater spell penetration (and maybe even spell pen at that point).

As a WF I will only have 5 feats by level 6 (3 normal at 1,3,6 and 2 bonus at 1, 5). Up till 6 I will want self sufficiency so I can get my companions ASAP, and at 6 I'll switch it over to SF nec for my PRE. That leaves 4 other feats initially and I'm thinking of going with extend, toughness (need that asap), SF enchantment and GSF enchantment.

I want to make as many enemies dance while my minions kill them as possible initially. Once I hit lvl 5 I'll add in hold person/halt undead (and probably slow) and at level 9 I'll get heighten.

Not sure how well this is going to work....but I'll give it a try and keep posting here. If anyone has tried this before or has any advice that would be great as well!!

[dr_cheeseball]

I get what your going for. I have something going on a bit like that, wf wiz 13/rog 1, palemaster 2 at the moment. Currently a big fan of earth grabbing elementals and black bone skeleton mages with firewall. The robot doggies where more trouble then they where worth, mostly, in my opinion. Nothing like your doggie makeing your other minions fall on their rears and haveing the mobs make thier saves. But thats my prejudice.

I would consider splashing 2 rogue, given what you want, traps would be your biggest bane, and a trapmonkey wiz is just fun, mine has yet to meet a trap of any difficulty he couldn't beat, which seems to have extended my minions life expectencey. As far as multiclassing and spell DC's, stuff still dies when I give it the finger, but they don't dance quite as much to the disco ball, but mind fog helps with that.

I don't think you should write off damage spells either with the concept, combining the buffed minions/hireling with spells has allowed my trapwiz necro to survive and thrive in situations I didn't think he could.

But, regardless, being able to combine minions without it effecting dungeon scaling is actually pretty effective, and while they don't equal another person, they are still you+them, not just them solo.

[Razic-Thule]

From what i have heard and seen as far as the Pale master summons go, they suck for damage. So your best bet i would think is to use your hold spells if you can afford the SP. Between your knight and normal summon they should kill the mobs easy enough. But i haven't heard of anyone using the mage with firewall and a buffed up summon to see how long they last together. If you try it, let me know please :)

[wolfy42]

Thanks for the responses dr_cheeseball and Razic-Thule:)

I am tempted to toss in 2 rogue levels and snag insightful reflexes (probably will switch out a SP eventually for that anyway), but that drops me down 1 feat and slows how fast I get all of my summons (the useful ones at least) by 2 levels.

The doggies should not be that much of a problem especially if I go with the wiz/sorc line of hirelings (all warforged). I can switch to the fight/barb line if need be for certain quests and ditch the doggies if they are really that bad (or just not use the lower doggies, the higher level ones don't grease as much). Some of the wizard WF hirelings summon as well (2 summons for the price of 1!!).

Traps are going to be a serious pain for my summons though. I can heal my hireling though and resummon everything but my doggies (which the latter ones have decent immunities and DR so that should help).

As far as myself, I'll have plenty of hp and self healing to get me through most traps..and I am going to eventually take insightful reflexes as well (I may actually snag that early on and skip SP initially).

I like the idea of having 2 other wizards as backup (my necro skelly mage and my wizard hireling) along with my summons (And maybe my hirelings summons as well). I'm not sure how well the doggies will work, but it's only enhancements anyway so I can switch them out later easily if they end up being more problem then help (I really would like to have the 4 extra summons out though...I wish we could turn off their grease attacks).

I do have plenty of advantages when working on this build (I will be playing it this weekend, sadly to busy today between work, school and a meeting tonight) including tomes, wands, plenty of great equipment, plenty of money, experience with all the quests and quest rewards etc. That will help me with any mana problems right from the start and mental toughness archivists necklaces etc will help as well.

Also I will have the free necro attacks (I think it's free but not 100% sure) as a pale master. I feel ok using that on enemies along with my CC spells to suppliment my summons damage. Even with 1 hireling dungeon scalling should be fairly kind to me on normal and hard at least and as a fun build I'm not going to worry about doing elite as early as possible (or even at all in some cases). Just trying to see how far I can take this concept character and how buff I can get his summon damage etc.

Honestly I have hardly used hirelings at all since they were implemented even on pure solo characters. They tend to die easily (compared to well....me) and drop your flawless victory exp bonus etc. I think this will be a fun way to experiment with hirelings a bit while trying out pale master and exploring a new way to try and overcome the challenges of many of the quests.

[oweieie]

The best summon in the game is the shroud dense earth elemental clicky but even it gets pretty feeble after Gianthold.

The best pets in the game aren't summons but dominated. The problem is that monster HPs go up much faster than monster damage output so even dominated pets will never come close to a decent firewall. Of course, you can have an AWFUL LOT of enemies dominated at once...

[wolfy42]

The best summon in the game is the shroud dense earth elemental clicky but even it gets pretty feeble after Gianthold.

The best pets in the game aren't summons but dominated. The problem is that monster HPs go up much faster than monster damage output so even dominated pets will never come close to a decent firewall. Of course, you can have an AWFUL LOT of enemies dominated at once...

Never been a big fan of charming/dominating monsters although I do know that it is often the best way to get outside damage (not to mention it stops that monster from doing damage as well). Dominating enemies is not going to be a part of my plan, I'm hoping that I can generate enough damage between my skelly mage and my hireling mage to take out enemies fairly well and then use my doggies and summon (along with my hirelings summon) to tank anything that isn't CC'd by me.

I don't know if it will work (or how well) but I'm going to give it a try. I figure against paralized enemies at least my minions should do decent damage...but many of the quests are probably going to be a serious challange especially past the early level (by around level 8-9 or so.

Doesn't sound like anyone has done this before so it should be a fun experiment, a nice challenge and it will let me use hirelings a bit (usually they are too slow, weak and easily killed for me to bother with).

[wolfy42]

Blah, Blah and double blah!!

You can't have multiple summons out, at least not more then 1 companion or even a companion and a normal summoned monster!!

That is silly:(

No point to this build if you can't have multiple summons. I was running with the flaming ball + steel companion and that is actually pretty effective early on (you can have that right off the bat as a level 4 wizard), but it's not going to go very far. Not even going to waste my time trying the necro stuff I guess then.

Sigh

[Razic-Thule]

I thought you could have the necro summon, plus summon monster or the dogie. But has to be one or the other, dogie or summoned monster. I could be wrong, but i think it was a recent change. Not sure on the flaming sphere but i know the Effrit will summon a flaming sphere. Used too summon 2, I don't know if he still can or not.

Also if you use a WF melee hireling you can heal it threw your repair spells and keep you pets alive longer.

[wolfy42]

I thought you could have the necro summon, plus summon monster or the dogie. But has to be one or the other, dogie or summoned monster. I could be wrong, but i think it was a recent change. Not sure on the flaming sphere but i know the Effrit will summon a flaming sphere. Used too summon 2, I don't know if he still can or not.

Also if you use a WF melee hireling you can heal it threw your repair spells and keep you pets alive longer.

Yeah I was planning on using the WF hirelings and healing them (hate losing the bonus exp for a death). I thought you could have more then 1 doggie out...and that they were seperate from the summon spells as well....but I had not done a summon build before. Maybe it's a new change as I havn't used doggies since before adamantium was added.

Not being able to use the dogs and the normal summon at the same time really ruins alot of the fun though since I wanted to make a summoner. I could probably still have a normal summon + Hireling + hirelings summon + Skelly minion + flaming ball (Fball really should be save for 1/2 damage unless they have evasion btw). That would not be too bad, but I'm too blahed out about the whole thing right now so I'm going to table it for awhile. Maybe when the new necro stuff is added I'll make something up then.

[LunaCee]

You can have Undead Skeleton, Summon, Hireling, Hireling Summon all up at the same time.

Though to be honest, I find the skeleton knights are the most effective of them from tier 2 onwards. The blackbone arcane will just draw aggro and get ganked most of the time as soon as you start doing level 15+ quests. And the frostmarrow arcane is an actual liability to use because of its undying love of sleetstorm.

As a bonus, the frostmarrow sellsword (knight) has a fort-save special that freezes enemies, and like a certain Ice II greensteel with a similiar effect frozen enemies are in auto-crit. Now they have stated that they are upgrading the skeleton summons in update 5. I'm hoping his special gets it's DC upgraded a bit. Because one rarely sees that freeze hit on anything approaching endgame. (Though its hilarious if you go do the giant caves in Threnal on elite and see a fire giant champion get frozen. That makes for one BIG frozen statue.)

The other reason I prefer to have the undead knights? One of those plus a Hezrou makes for easier killing of things like Arcane Oozes when attempting to solo some quests. They have the highest durability of all the skeletons, making them the longest lasting decoys by a mile. And finally because they are the cheapest to re-summon once you go by a ladder or something and lose it because it doesn't teleport to your side like all the regular summons now do.

[wolfy42]

You can have Undead Skeleton, Summon, Hireling, Hireling Summon all up at the same time.

Though to be honest, I find the skeleton knights are the most effective of them from tier 2 onwards. The blackbone arcane will just draw aggro and get ganked most of the time as soon as you start doing level 15+ quests. And the frostmarrow arcane is an actual liability to use because of its undying love of sleetstorm.

As a bonus, the frostmarrow sellsword (knight) has a fort-save special that freezes enemies, and like a certain Ice II greensteel with a similiar effect frozen enemies are in auto-crit. Now they have stated that they are upgrading the skeleton summons in update 5. I'm hoping his special gets it's DC upgraded a bit. Because one rarely sees that freeze hit on anything approaching endgame. (Though its hilarious if you go do the giant caves in Threnal on elite and see a fire giant champion get frozen. That makes for one BIG frozen statue.)

The other reason I prefer to have the undead knights? One of those plus a Hezrou makes for easier killing of things like Arcane Oozes when attempting to solo some quests. They have the highest durability of all the skeletons, making them the longest lasting decoys by a mile. And finally because they are the cheapest to re-summon once you go by a ladder or something and lose it because it doesn't teleport to your side like all the regular summons now do.

Ah a glimmer of hope!!

Thank you Luna:)

Perhaps I could still make it work then and just use the Skelly knights + normal summon + WF wizard hireling (with it's summon). I don't think pure CC is going to work though with that even so...which defeats my purpose a bit....but I guess I could at least give it a try.

Nice to hear good things about the Necro summon...most of the other posts only have bad things to say:)