Fixing weapons like Midnight's Greeting (new Sentinels pack)

[Angelus_dead]

Suggestion
Currently some rare weapons (Midnight's Greeting and Epic Dynastic Falcata) do not add the usual strength mod to damage, and instead use intelligence or charisma mod. Change it so they instead use strength modifier plus 50% of the modifier for the mental stat (round up).

In addition, Epic Midnight's Greeting could use another benefit, like Seeker, Backstabbing, double Maiming, or Lesser Humanoid Bane (but that's a side topic).

Example
With the current versions, a Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard might have respective damage bonuses of 0, 6, and 15 with the Epic Midnight's Greetings, compared to 12, 7, and 2 with a regular kukri. The suggested variation would instead give them bonuses of 12, 10, and 10.


Motivation
The goal is to change Midnight's Greeting and Epic Dynastic Falcata so they are appropriately useful weapons, without removing the feature that their combat power improves when the wielder has higher mental ability scores. Encouraging a melee character to ignore available strength buffs is undesirable and thus the suggestion avoids that.

Apparently the designers for those items had the idea that the Rogue and Paladin classes are partially based on having good scores in intelligence and charisma, and they wanted to reward characters with good mental abilities by supplying weapons that can use a mental modifier for damage. That's great, but where it went wrong is when they went into "kiss-curse" and took away the regular damage bonus from strength.

Typical sensibly-built Rogues and Paladins might have above-average scores for intelligence/charisma, but they're probably not higher than strength, especially in battle gear. (Even Bards probably don't have much higher charisma than strength unless they really have no interest in melee attacks). So standard characters of those types gain no benefit from the mental-damage effect until they somehow reach the oddball point of having more mental stat than strength.

Conversely, the suggested variant rewards characters for raising the mental stack into a higher bracket, regardless of whether their strength is higher or lower. Mainline Rogues and Paladins now see the feature as a bonus, not a penalty, and in general the proportion of characters that might willingly equip the item goes up enormously. Furthermore, we avoid problems such as making Epic Dynastic Falcata primarily attractive to sorcerers, which is rather silly and may lead to some quite disruptive character building if such items become more commonplace.

Note that the other possible suggestion was to just add both strength mod and mental mod at 100%, but that's truly double-dipping and likely to lead into overpowered situations. A fraction of the int/cha modifier is sufficient.

Additional Suggestion 1
Weapons which use dexterity for damage (Breeze and Epic Zephyr) could also follow the suggestion: 100% str mod + 50% dex mod. And aside from that Zephyr needs another bonus.

Additional Suggestion 2
Something similar could be done to weapons which use charisma mod for attack rolls (Elyd Edge and Epic Dynastic Falcata). But in that case you wouldn't add str+cha/2, as that would get too high. Instead allow the character to use the better of str mod or (str mod + cha mod)/2. That way characters with an unusually high charisma get a bonus with the item, but not a license to dump strength.

[Artos_Fabril]

Good assessment, and some interesting ideas.

It seems to me though, that all of the new weapons in update 4 were meant to benefit most from underutilized character options, or benefit builds that should be viable but aren't. They won't automatically make any of those builds a min/maxer's delight, but they do offer a minor boost.

Midnight Greetings: mechanic rogues, finesse assassin rogues, wizogues (but they rarely melee anyway), gives monks a non-kama slashing weapon option, maybe best for a rog/mnk using US to enable sneak attacks.

Elyd Egde: melee spellsinger or virtuoso, drow dual rapier paladins

Chimera's Fang: Sentinel Dragonmarked Humans, **with update 5 change to bastard swords this becomes: Sentinel Dragonmarked S&B or single weapon builds, although a TWF str build that takes the sentinel dragonmark and not khopeshes (are there any? :P ) still gets the benefit of being able to use a bastard sword in the other hand as well, which might be nice, because a bastard sword often costs less than 1/10 as much with the same mods as a khopesh.

Anyway, Additional Suggestion 3: Change the Damage Mod (stat) to only apply if that stat is higher than STR.

edit: putting Seeker on Midnight Greetings is the least ideal choice, until the assassin/seeker stacking issue is fixed. Backstabbing looks to me like the best choice, but YMMV.

[Tuney]

Yeah my bard used the Elyd Edge. Gives her +11 total mod to hit which would be 1 higher IF i was using a +5 weapon , but rarly does anyone other then TR's and high level charaters are using +5 weapons.

I have a 20 str and a 30 cha at level 14 , I generaly don't mix it up with melee that much, I'm eather ahead of the group enthralling , setting up CC , dishing out CC or playing nannybot (Generaly only when the group is really powerful and and its the only thing helpful i can do hehe.)

But most of the items released from Update 4 are for nitch/flavor builds. Heck my Rogue would get more Damage with the Midnight greeting then most of her other weapons because her base str is 10 and her starting int is 16... or at least it was befor I LR her ... but in the end her INT is still higher then str :P

Not all weapons are looked nicely on and some equipment makes you wonder... why does it exist more so if it is named items. *Looks at the +4 named str gloves from Maze of madness that are named just like normal pair of +4 str gloves*

And Breeze from the text stand point of it on the weapon , it was MADE to be good for the charaters who pumped so much into dex that it was outright silly and now with that weapon they can use it to add to damage Sweet.

[Kyrn]

Disagree.

The real way to fix them is to make sure BOTH to-hit and damage mods use the same stat. If you wanted a str to-hit and damage mod weapon, there are other options, like greensteel.

Midnight greetings honestly though, is a complete messup. Int/Str mod? Monk centered? Can anyone name me a single build which uses monk centeredness in an int/str build?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Anyway, Additional Suggestion 3: Change the Damage Mod (stat) to only apply if that stat is higher than STR.


I agree with this.

[Artos_Fabril]

Midnight greetings honestly though, is a complete messup. Int/Str mod? Monk centered? Can anyone name me a single build which uses monk centeredness in an int/str build?
Kukri is a finesse weapon, so it will use dex to hit if you have chosen weapon finesse, the epic version is automatically finessed, if dex mod is higher than str mod. But finesse doesn't do anything for the damage modifier on its own, that's why the int mod to damage. There are already a few weapons (Breeze and Epic Zephyr, as A_D mentioned) that use dex mod to damage and are finesse weapons.

I doubt there are any int/str monk builds, but there aren't any other centered slashing weapons beside kamas, which are significantly inferior to kukri anyway. Changing the damage mod to str OR int would fix that problem anyway.

I'm a little disappointed that the epic version doesn't upgrade deception to radiance, or at least blind on crit without the bonus light damage.

[Angelus_dead]

It seems to me though, that all of the new weapons in update 4 were meant to benefit most from underutilized character options, or benefit builds that should be viable but aren't.
Yes, that was probably the intent, but the items do not achieve that goal as they are. This suggestion would help them get there.


Midnight Greetings: mechanic rogues, finesse assassin rogues
...
gives monks a non-kama slashing weapon option
...
maybe best for a rog/mnk using US to enable sneak attacks.

Elyd Egde: melee spellsinger or virtuoso, drow dual rapier paladins
Mechanic rogues, finesse assassin rogues, monks, rog/monks, melee spellsinger/virtuosos, and rapier paladins do not realistically benefit from the existing item effects. Those characters might have good scores in intelligence or charisma (well, not the monks), but they don't have their mental stats so unreasonably high that they're substantially above strength.


Chimera's Fang: Sentinel Dragonmarked Humans
That item is a failure as well, but for other reasons.


Anyway, Additional Suggestion 3: Change the Damage Mod (stat) to only apply if that stat is higher than STR.
Yes, that was suggested months ago, and bumped the other day:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2892228

[Angelus_dead]

The real way to fix them is to make sure BOTH to-hit and damage mods use the same stat.
As indicated above, Epic Dynastic Falcata already does this, and is not a good item. It's just not a good approach to take: depending on how prevalent such items become, they'll function either as a trap for the unwary character-builder, or a a subversion of the ability score design.

[Artos_Fabril]

Yes, that was suggested months ago, and bumped the other day:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2892228
Point.

But it was already off the first page again, you should have at least mentioned it in your original post, or posted the link there.

Mechanic rogues, finesse assassin rogues, monks, rog/monks, melee spellsinger/virtuosos, and rapier paladins do not realistically benefit from the existing item effects. Those characters might have good scores in intelligence or charisma (well, not the monks), but they don't have their mental stats so unreasonably high that they're substantially above strength.The non-epic versions are less of a problem. At level 5, even up to 10 at the lowest, you're not running around with +6 items in every stat, and the only one of these classes likely to have rages would be a bardbarian warchanter, but they dumpstat Cha and boost str anyway and so have the use of any other weapon they want.

The implementation could use some tweaking to be sure, but if the goal is to give a boost to particular builds, the weapons don't have to be best-in-slot for everyone.

[Angelus_dead]

The non-epic versions are less of a problem.
Yes, the low-level items in Sentinels are less important to the game, because players have many other places to get decent rapiers and kukris or things (there are still zero acceptable epic finesse weapons).

But they're still a failure at their own objective, which was to give players a reward for beating the Sentinels pack (plus buying it in the first place).


At level 5, even up to 10 at the lowest, you're not running around with +6 items in every stat
Yes, there are fewer stat-boost items available at low level, so even characters focused on a mental ability score will not have it as far above their strength as it gets later, so the special feature of these weapons has less chance to be beneficial.


The implementation could use some tweaking to be sure, but if the goal is to give a boost to particular builds, the weapons don't have to be best-in-slot for everyone.
But they do need to at least benefit builds which are high in the stat, and an inspection of the possibilities shows that they don't.

Midnight's Greetings for Rogue:
First off, the Assassin Training which grants Kukri proficiency is virtually useless for three reasons: It is a bad idea to train Assassin before level 12 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2892491), offhand weapons are ineffective at that level (thanks to the new earlier iterative attacks), and rogues frequently have a fighter/barb level by then. To have a higher intelligence than strength would be a mistake, but even if you did then the benefit would just be +4 damage or so. A +1 Flame Rapier of Pure Good would do more damage, or a +3 Rapier would hit more... especially if you add in elf/drow enhancements or had Frost added to either.

Midnight's Greetings for Monk:
Someone with a monk level will have more need for wisdom, making him even less able to have high intelligence. Even if it wasn't crippled by int-to-damage, a low-level monk would still do better with +3 Handwraps (or +2 Screaming), because unlike offhand weapons, unarmed combat can benefit fully from TWF feats as soon as they're available.

Midnight's Greetings for Wizard:
A low-level wizard does not have access to Divine Power magic, so it is especially important that he get a weapon with more than +1 enhancement if he hopes to hit anything. Many wizard players will pick up the kukri just to play with, but it won't turn out to have much use.

Eyld Edge for Bard:
Being a bard, you always go into combat fully buffed, so even if your charisma was higher than str/dex, you probably wouldn't need that to help hit. Instead a +1 Shock Rapier of Pure Good would be better. And for Devotion I'll certainly want Improved (the Tangleroot ring) or even Greater Ardor clickies.

Eyld Edge for Paladin:
If you're a paladin whose charisma is better than your strength, reroll now.

Eyld Edge for Sorcerer:
This is the most attractive use case, but judging from the "Anthem" feature it isn't what the weapon was meant for. Although sorcerer players will find it cool to easily hit enemy ACs, the damage won't be enough to often contribute to victory.


By comparison, if the suggestion were used, then all those above users of the Midnight's Greetings would instead say: "Hey cool, I can also add half my intelligence mod, which could be 1-3 points so that this item might be better than the random ones I already have"

[Aesop]

I like it A_D... little tired so I don't ave much else to say on this matter.

Aesop

[Angelus_dead]

Additional Suggestion 2
Something similar could be done to weapons which use charisma mod for attack rolls (Elyd Edge and Epic Dynastic Falcata). But in that case you wouldn't add str+cha/2, as that would get too high. Instead allow the character to use the better of str mod or (str mod + cha mod)/2. That way characters with an unusually high charisma get a bonus with the item, but not a license to dump strength.
I guess I should elaborate on the benefits of this change. That suggestion is to change Eyld Edge from using charisma on attack rolls to allowing you to use the average of strength and charisma mods. That would be a buff to the item for most characters, and a nerf for high-cha people using it (mainly sorcs).

For example, with the current Eyld Edge a Ranger, Paladin, and Sorcerer might have attack mods of -1, +3, and +6, while the suggested change would give them +5, +5, and +3.

The intent is that by nerfing the attack bonus benefit of the weapon, the designers get room to grant it other abilities to improve the actual damage, such as maybe adding Righteous, Lesser Orc+Goblin Bane, and Undead Bane. To give it damage-boosting features along with the full charisma to attack would make it overpowered for some sorcs and bards.

[sephiroth1084]

Haven't had a chance to read through all of this--going to sleep in a moment--but came to look based on A_D's comment over in the Definitive yada yada thread, and want to maek a quick comment/question as it has sprung to mind. Will check in later to read everything and such.

Why is using a non-standard stat worse/better than Str +1/2 non-standard stat?

[Morningfrost]

I doubt there are any int/str monk builds, but there aren't any other centered slashing weapons beside kamas, which are significantly inferior to kukri anyway.

Side question: has anyone ever tried a TWF build with kamas, using Dream Edges? They have 20x3 critical, so with IC: slash it sounds interesting (also considering earth attacks modifiers).

I guess unarmed + handwraps + ToD rings is still superior, but just asking.

[Calebro]

Will, I'll tell you that my 1 rogue / 2 monk / 17 wiz build was extremely happy upon hearing the initial description for Midnight's Greeting.
Extremely excited!
I mean, if ever there was a toon that this kukri would have been PERFECT for, it is THIS build. When I actually read the description myself, rather than just hearing about it, I was horribly disappointed. Horribly, horribly disappointed.

This kukri should have been the best thing since sliced bread for that toon, and it's utterly useless. If that doesn't tell you what a waste that kukri is, I don't know what else to say.

Something definitely needs to be done with these things.

[Swedishchef]

Good post OP, however i would like to see some serious boost to epic weapons, they are at best mediocre compared to greensteel weapons and not at all "epic", the only "epic" weapon that is remotley good imo is the chaosblade, and even that one is only a good vorpal and nothing more.

[Morningfrost]

This kukri should have been the best thing since sliced bread for that toon, and it's utterly useless. If that doesn't tell you what a waste that kukri is, I don't know what else to say.


Sorry, what is letting you down on your build? At a first glance, it's true it the kukri seems perfect for it.

[Pyromaniac]

/not signed. Keep the items unique like they are.

[Calebro]

Sorry, what is letting you down on your build? At a first glance, it's true it the kukri seems perfect for it.

Nothing is letting me down on the build. It's the craptastic features of the kukri that let me down.
+Int to damage, while staying centered, and offering deception is great. But when a gazillion pother weapons will do more damage with elemental effects, those just aren't enough to make it worthwhile. Especially considering he'd need to take a feat to use it because he's not an assassin.
If it were better, it *might* be worth a feat.

The concept on these types of items is very sound. The implementation of them, however, was/is not.

[Angelus_dead]

/not signed. Keep the items unique like they are.
Following this suggestion would keep these items unique, but also give them a useful function which they don't currently have,


i would like to see some serious boost to epic weapons, they are at best mediocre compared to greensteel weapons and not at all "epic", the only "epic" weapon that is remotley good imo is the chaosblade
It's true that many epic weapons/items could use improvement, but epic Xuum and Sword of Shadows are certainly powerful enough as they are. (The SOS could lose a few points of enhancement bonus and no one would care)


Sorry, what is letting you down on your build? At a first glance, it's true it the kukri seems perfect for it.
Probably his intelligence is not enough higher than his strength to compensate for all those commonplace damage-dealing features the weapon lacks. Features like Holy and Shocking Burst.



Especially considering he'd need to take a feat to use it because he's not an assassin.
If it were better, it *might* be worth a feat.
Presumably someone with Wizard would be casting Master's Touch to get proficiency. If you find the casting lag prohibitive, then that is a separate specific bug that needs to be fixed.

[Angelus_dead]

Why is using a non-standard stat worse/better than Str +1/2 non-standard stat?
It's been covered quite a bit above, but this should be an easy way to see the advantage.

Consider a more-generic formulation of the question: When designing a weapon that'll benefit from a nonstandard combat stat, is it better for the alternate stat to completely replace the regular one for some purpose, or to be combined with it somehow?

Using the replacement approach creates a weapon that is useless except to characters whose alternate stat is higher than their regular stat, which includes all characters who actually fight with weapons. If a certain shortsword replaces str with cha for damage bonus, then it is not only useless to barbs/rangers (which it should be), but also to paladins, favored souls, and combat-interested bards. Those characters may have good charisma, but it doesn't benefit the weapon until it gets so high that it actually overtakes str. The only people who'd get a higher bonus from this sword would be sorcerers or caster-bards, who are mostly uninterested in melee (an opinion that's unlikely to change by handing them this sword).

On the other hand, if the item used the combination approach, then it would remain unappealing to barbs/rangers, but paladins and bards would likely find some use for it, as their moderately-high charisma translates into a nice damage boost. That damage bonus might or might not be enough to make the weapon preferable to traditional alternatives with effects like Holy and Shock, but at least it's a start, and the item can be given other effects to bring it up to the desired power level.

Note that I'm being intentionally vague as to how the combination could happen: str+cha/2 and cha+str/2 are just two of the multiple possibilities. Which is best depends on other details of the item.

[Calebro]

Probably his intelligence is not enough higher than his strength to compensate for all those commonplace damage-dealing features the weapon lacks. Features like Holy and Shocking Burst.
At the levels that these items are (could be) useful, not many toons will have that significant a difference. Not unless a Ray of Enfeeblement will render them helpless anyway.

Presumably someone with Wizard would be casting Master's Touch to get proficiency. If you find the casting lag prohibitive, then that is a separate specific bug that needs to be fixed.

I hate master's touch, just for the lag that it creates on my homemade-out-of-multiple-old-broken-computers system. I *wish* I could use MT sometimes.
But even so, if I wanted to stay centered it's still not better than a decent set of Wraps or a pair of Holy Kamas of Pure Good that have a higher enhancement than +1.

[Krag]

In uniqueness lie their weakness.
You can't grab Midnight or Elyd Edge with any of existing builds and be efficent. Melee builds don't have high mental stats and high mental stats builds don't dedicate their feats to melee.

Can you build a toon who can utilize "unique" weapons to their full extent? Yes, you can. However those builds will suck with regular weapons and be crippled from level 1 till 19. But even at level 20 dualwielding (oh, the GRIND!) Midnights won't bring you into the SoS league against trash. But the real issue is DR. With no way to bypass common DR "unique" weapon users will be nearly as useless as mechanic rogues (;)). Without whole bunch of cha-based fiendbeaters, int-based skellybeaters creating exotic weapon users is pointless. No minor boost/rework will change the situation.

[sephiroth1084]

It's been covered quite a bit above, but this should be an easy way to see the advantage.

Consider a more-generic formulation of the question: When designing a weapon that'll benefit from a nonstandard combat stat, is it better for the alternate stat to completely replace the regular one for some purpose, or to be combined with it somehow?

Using the replacement approach creates a weapon that is useless except to characters whose alternate stat is higher than their regular stat, which includes all characters who actually fight with weapons. If a certain shortsword replaces str with cha for damage bonus, then it is not only useless to barbs/rangers (which it should be), but also to paladins, favored souls, and combat-interested bards. Those characters may have good charisma, but it doesn't benefit the weapon until it gets so high that it actually overtakes str. The only people who'd get a higher bonus from this sword would be sorcerers or caster-bards, who are mostly uninterested in melee (an opinion that's unlikely to change by handing them this sword).

On the other hand, if the item used the combination approach, then it would remain unappealing to barbs/rangers, but paladins and bards would likely find some use for it, as their moderately-high charisma translates into a nice damage boost. That damage bonus might or might not be enough to make the weapon preferable to traditional alternatives with effects like Holy and Shock, but at least it's a start, and the item can be given other effects to bring it up to the desired power level.

Note that I'm being intentionally vague as to how the combination could happen: str+cha/2 and cha+str/2 are just two of the multiple possibilities. Which is best depends on other details of the item.
Yeah, good point. For the Mental stat to damage weapons, unless they are targeted specifically at primary casters (Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer and perhaps Favored Soul and Bard), Str +1/2 stat makes a lot of sense.

The comment that lead me here, though, was regarding the Epic Zephyr and its Dex to damage. I think that, yes, the stat + 1/2 stat is a better formula than just alternate stat, but believe that Str shouldn't necessarily be the primary damage stat in all cases (such as with the Zephyr).

I'd be curious to see/know whether adding stat+1/2 would be much more programming than simply replacing one value with another.

[LunaCee]

I view it this way... either they do your suggestion and give in to the fact that there a far more ways to buff STR or they simply give bonus effects to offset the fact that STR is not applying.

And as for wizards being unable to use the kukri at lower levels... not precisely true, but I'd still prefer a pair of picks for auto-crits on things I have held. 1d8+4+4 x 4 versus 1d4+1+7 x 2 on a 6th level wizard going to melee something they just cast hold person on... I think I will take the picks still! Thanks for trying though.

Now if they came out with a nice INT to damage mod on a light/heavy pick I'd be all over it on my wizard.

[Hjarki]

In uniqueness lie their weakness.
You can't grab Midnight or Elyd Edge with any of existing builds and be efficent. Melee builds don't have high mental stats and high mental stats builds don't dedicate their feats to melee.

Can you build a toon who can utilize "unique" weapons to their full extent? Yes, you can. However those builds will suck with regular weapons and be crippled from level 1 till 19. But even at level 20 dualwielding (oh, the GRIND!) Midnights won't bring you into the SoS league against trash. But the real issue is DR. With no way to bypass common DR "unique" weapon users will be nearly as useless as mechanic rogues (;)). Without whole bunch of cha-based fiendbeaters, int-based skellybeaters creating exotic weapon users is pointless. No minor boost/rework will change the situation.

This.

If the devs are going to give alternate stats for weapons, they should do so through feats/class abilities (such as Weapon Finesse), not the weapons. If such benefits must come from items, then they should come from non-weapon slot items so you have an opportunity to use different weapons with your stat.

[Angelus_dead]

The comment that lead me here, though, was regarding the Epic Zephyr and its Dex to damage. I think that, yes, the stat + 1/2 stat is a better formula than just alternate stat, but believe that Str shouldn't necessarily be the primary damage stat in all cases (such as with the Zephyr).
For epic Zephyr either str+dex/2 or dex+str/2 would be superior to the current version with damage=dex. Changing it either way would increase the damage of the weapon both for high dex and high str characters, making it more likely to be an effective choice.

But why go with str+dex/2 instead of dex+str/2? Primarily to be cautious and stay closer to how the game balance already works. All currently-used weapons have damage=str, so to make one where dex is the primary component of damage would be a pretty big change.

That is particularly important since there is no pre-epic weapon with similar proprties to the dex damage on Epic Zephyr. We don't want characters to hit 20 and get a rare weapon and then suddenly experience a big switch in the priorities of their stats. (It's a rule of thumb that players shouldn't have to wait too long to "start playing their characters", as shown by Everquest)

PS. Another option is to make the weapon use damage = max(str+dex/2, dex+str/2).


I'd be curious to see/know whether adding stat+1/2 would be much more programming than simply replacing one value with another.
It seems highly likely that is the case, but in the sense that replacement is approximately zero programming and they have no programming manhours presently available.

It's an educated guess that each weapon includes two fields for attack and damage mod, and that the Breeze weapon was created when someone noticed it was possible to put a stat other than str in for damage. From there it spread to some other weapons, like epic Menechetarun and then Sentinels- all just by a designer changing a field in a data list, but without needing programming.

However, to use a different formula like a+b/2 would be just a trivial amount of coding, but it would have to come from someone who knows just where to add it, and who also knows how to pack another variable into the item data without breaking it. It's a task on the same order of difficulty as allowing Barbarians to drink Remove Curse while raged, which we all know has been broken for years.

So most likely it's an easy thing but not something the devs will find the resources for soon.

[Roziel_Longblade]

I love the idea of int and cha based weapons. I like the idea that they are available at low enough levels for people to make builds anticipating their use. Despite that I agree with the posters above, there is a problem. The only issue I see with the ideas above is that they may require a lot of work just to make a couple weapons more attractive.

There should be a mid lvl upgrade to any specialty weapon that relies on non-standard statistics like int or cha. By lvl 12 that lvl 5 weapon simply will not be cutting it, no matter the builds int/cha or monk stance.

If not an upgrade then at least a similar weapon at the mid level range.

[Angelus_dead]

There should be a mid lvl upgrade to any specialty weapon that relies on non-standard statistics like int or cha. By lvl 12 that lvl 5 weapon simply will not be cutting it, no matter the builds int/cha or monk stance.

If not an upgrade then at least a similar weapon at the mid level range.
Yes, that's one of the big problems with things like Epic Zephyr: if using dexterity for your melee damage stat is going to be workable at level 20, then it should also work at the lower levels. Once weapons with that kind of ability are put into the game, they should be provided at all level ranges.

[Cyr]

PS. Another option is to make the weapon use damage = max(str+dex/2, dex+str/2).


This makes sense to me. The current weapons which use these off stat as primary are not worth using.

[maddmatt70]

It seems like about every other mod the new end game gear has to be 'fixed' perhaps there is something fundamental wrong with their gear making process. What the devs should do is fix the process whereby they determine the new gear - going back and refixing old gear seems like a waste of time for players and devs alike.

[Angelus_dead]

What the devs should do is fix the process whereby they determine the new gear - going back and refixing old gear seems like a waste of time for players and devs alike.
Certainly they should fix their process so that future items make more sense... but it is equally important that they go back and apply that process to older items so they get fixed too.

Just because an item is newer does not entitle it to be more useful than others of similar level and availability. The objective should be that players can't tell and don't care if an Adventure Pack is old or new. When trying to make a quality product, all parts of it should have quality. Just because a content area is older does not excuse having bad items- new players in the future won't know how old the area is. They's just see that the game has bad items, and be disappointed in the game.

[maddmatt70]

Certainly they should fix their process so that future items make more sense... but it is equally important that they go back and apply that process to older items so they get fixed too.

Just because an item is newer does not entitle it to be more useful than others of similar level and availability. The objective should be that players can't tell and don't care if an Adventure Pack is old or new. When trying to make a quality product, all parts of it should have quality. Just because a content area is older does not excuse having bad items- new players in the future won't know how old the area is. They's just see that the game has bad items, and be disappointed in the game.

Oh by the way I disagree with some of your analysis of the dynasta falcuta. That it adds both cha to hit and damage makes it useful and sought after for certain builds. For instance it is an intruiging weapon in the hands of a bard with maxed charisma that has enough dex to get the twf feats. I run with a bard who wants two of those and I would not mind getting a couple on my charisma specced spellsinger. The devs could add a little bit more damage to it like say make it maiming so it workes well with hod monster, but anyway.

[Angelus_dead]

That it adds both cha to hit and damage makes it useful and sought after for certain builds. For instance it is an intruiging weapon in the hands of a bard with maxed charisma
Just because an item is attractive to some characters does not mean it is good game design (as explained above).

Consider the two possibilities:
1. Epic Dynastic Falcata is attractive to characters with high charisma, meaning many Paladins, some Bards, and a few Favored Souls or Sorcerers.
2. Epic Dynastic Falcata is attractive only to characters with much more charisma than strength, meaning some Bards and a few Sorcerers.

Which of those choices would be better for the game? Which would do more to reduce the complaint "I don't feel like running epic desert because there's not enough good loot"?

PS. It's weird to call Midnight's Greetings "old gear" when it just came out last month.

[Calebro]

@matt:
But that's the entire point of this thread. By pigeonholing these weapons to be useful by only a handful of very specific builds, the weapon is an obvious failure.
The Epic Dynastic Falcata, while better than most of these types of weapons, was quite obviously designed for a Paladin.
The fact that it is only useful to Sorcs and Bards proves it as a failure even further.

heh, ninja'd

[Krag]

Oh by the way I disagree with some of your analysis of the dynasta falcuta. That it adds both cha to hit and damage makes it useful and sought after for certain builds. For instance it is an intruiging weapon in the hands of a bard with maxed charisma that has enough dex to get the twf feats. I run with a bard who wants two of those and I would not mind getting a couple on my charisma specced spellsinger. The devs could add a little bit more damage to it like say make it maiming so it workes well with hod monster, but anyway.

If his Cha that much higher than Strength that he want Falcata, his TWF feats are a waste on him. Dualwielding Falcatas he can't break most important DRs: lich, skeletons, pit fiends, marilith.

[Artos_Fabril]

If his Cha that much higher than Strength that he want Falcata, his TWF feats are a waste on him. Dualwielding Falcatas he can't break most important DRs: lich, skeletons, pit fiends, marilith.
That's the easiest thing about it to fix. Add a red augment slot. A pure paladin wouldn't need good on it, but adding pure good and changing True Law to Absolute Law would also be nice improvements.

Using non-standard stats is less of a problem than that these weapons, generally, wouldn't be desirable if they used str/finesse as normal.

[Krag]

That's the easiest thing about it to fix. Add a red augment slot. A pure paladin wouldn't need good on it, but adding pure good and changing True Law to Absolute Law would also be nice improvements.

Using non-standard stats is less of a problem than that these weapons, generally, wouldn't be desirable if they used str/finesse as normal.

"Easy fix" imposes even more limitations on weapon users. Sorcerers and bards are out because neither can break DR with red slot alone.

Next question. Does this charismatic paladin start at level 20 or is he able to cut his way through using regular khopeshes? Charisma based bards and sorcerers were useful not only at cap.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Just because an item is attractive to some characters does not mean it is good game design (as explained above).

Consider the two possibilities:
1. Epic Dynastic Falcata is attractive to characters with high charisma, meaning many Paladins, some Bards, and a few Favored Souls or Sorcerers.
2. Epic Dynastic Falcata is attractive only to characters with much more charisma than strength, meaning some Bards and a few Sorcerers.

Which of those choices would be better for the game? Which would do more to reduce the complaint "I don't feel like running epic desert because there's not enough good loot"?
There are only a few weapons that have a wide appeal for a wide range of builds. I don't have a problem with items that only a few can use, or that you need to build a character around. I only have a problem if the item falls short of being balanced at end game or leaves a build gimp for 99% of its gaming career.

I have not used a Dyn Fac so I cant comment on it but the Midn Greet definitely has those issues.

[Angelus_dead]

Using non-standard stats is less of a problem than that these weapons, generally, wouldn't be desirable if they used str/finesse as normal.
But it is because they use non-standard stats that the weapons don't have other features on them to make them desirable. The dev making the weapon looked at it and said "Wow, switching to charisma can give some builds +15 attack and damage. That's a huge benefit, so I better not put more features on it"

If the devs were to take a khopesh that uses charisma for attack and damage, and then also give it a bunch of epic abilities like Absolute Law Axiomatic Burst Aligned +1 crit mult, then they'd create something that is overpowered for those small sliver of characters with high charisma.

That's not something desirable, unless they were going to start the huge and dubious project of providing weapons that use charisma for attack and damage all around the game, and rebalancing character power under the assumption that players will create builds based on those weapons.

[Angelus_dead]

There are only a few weapons that have a wide appeal for a wide range of builds. I don't have a problem with items that only a few can use, or that you need to build a character around.
Ok, look at it this way:

There are two problems developers have to avoid when creating items that benefit from non-standard stats: Making an item that's too good, or making an item that's not good enough. To make something too good is much worse, because it will screw up balance throughout the rest of the game, while an item which is not good is pretty much like you didn't make the item at all.

So understandably they prioritized avoiding problem one, but their success there pushed them into problem two. As explained above, when the items replace one stat with another then it's hard to find a middle way. If they instead make the item combine the special stat with the normal stat then it's easier to make it balanced between the extremes.

You seem to say you'd like Midnight Greeting buffed so that it's good for Wizards to melee with. But the thing is: Wizards aren't supposed to be good at melee, especially if they weren't built with an emphasis on strength.

[Roziel_Longblade]

I did not say that I like Mid Grtg for wizards. I said you can make builds around the weapons like it. While I would play with wizard builds because I test crazy stuff, it looks like it is made for high int rogue assassins with a lvl of monk (base 20int drow rogue19/monk1).

I will respectfully disagree with you on Wizards, and whether they are supposed to be able to melee. This online game is supposed to reflect the flavor of the PnP D&D game and with enough attention to combat Wizards did quite well in melee. That is not to say that casters should have an int/cha/wis based weapon, only to say that making it not work because it would let a caster melee well is not a reason with which I agree.

Combining stats is not a bad idea. It just seems like it is a lot of extra work when simply improving the base weapon slightly is simpler and gives the same end result.

[Angelus_dead]

it looks like it is made for high int rogue assassins with a lvl of monk (base 20int drow rogue19/monk1).
Yes, it might have been intended for a character like that to use. But it does not actually work usefully even for builds like that: Your intelligence would have to be too far above your strength for the benefit to actually kick in.


I will respectfully disagree with you on Wizards, and whether they are supposed to be able to melee. This online game is supposed to reflect the flavor of the PnP D&D game and with enough attention to combat Wizards did quite well in melee.
What I said is that Wizards should be functional in melee if they pay attention to combat such as by having higher strength.


It just seems like it is a lot of extra work when simply improving the base weapon slightly is simpler and gives the same end result.
Ok, how do you think the Midnight Greeting could be slightly improved to be a good item?

[Valindria]

I agree. All of the items that use a different mod should have a bonus instead of just using the mod.

Also the Epic bracers should have +1 exceptional wisdom instead of +6 wisdom.