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View Full Version : Rogues: Crippling Strike vs Epic Mode



Angelus_dead
04-08-2010, 02:19 PM
The Problem
The Rogue class loses too much of its combat ability in epic mode. Rogues have three major combat features, all dependent on Sneak Attacks:
1. hitpoint damage (about 50)
2. strength damage (2 points, from Crippling Strike)
3. insta-kill (on 20s from Assassin III)
Two of those three features are essentially worthless in epic, even though they were highly powerful in a level 19 quest set to elite. That is too much of a change for going between those modes.

Why is Crippling Strike nearly worthless in epic? In a level 19 elite quest, the monster has about 1000 hp and 30 str, so it takes 15 sneak attacks to bring it to zero str, by which time he'd probably have died anyway. But you started to get a noticable reduction in the enemy's damage and attack from just one. In epic the monster has 5000 hp and maybe 34 str, but his Epic Ward negates about 95% of ability score damage (the exact percentage is hard to measure). It would take over 20 times as many attacks to reduce the strength, but only about 5 times as many to kill it. Thus, the power of Crippling Strike has shrunk to under 5/20 = 25% of what it was. Instead of seeing a lessening in enemy DPS from just one Sneak Attack, it'll now take 20.

Before epic, Crippling Strike was considered the best of the Rogue special abilities. Sure, Improved Evasion is good too, but that only triggered when you failed a save, which wouldn't happen much anyhow. But now Crippling Strike is looking like something to trade in for Skill Mastery or Defensive Roll.

Suggestions
1. Apparently Epic Ward provides a 95% chance to negate each instance of ability score damage. That percentage could be reduced, prehaps to the inverse of the ratio by which their hitpoints improved from a level 20 elite enemy. If the creatures have 5x hp, then it would seem logical they take 1/5th of ability damage.

2. As an alternative, when Epic Ward blocks a point of ability score damage, the monster could instead take hitpoint damage, such as at a 10:1 ratio.

3. Make Epic Ward only start blocking ability damage if the monster has already taken 2 points of damage to that stat. This way stat-damage attacks can have an immediate defensive effect, but not necessarily accumulate faster than hp damage does.

4. Whenever Epic Ward prevents an instant death effect, the creature instead takes an amount of hitpoint damage. Let's say 200 points, although more would be fine. (It could also suffer a Touch of Dulruh debuff for 30 sec)

ArkoHighStar
04-08-2010, 02:27 PM
what about treating them like red names and raid bosses give them a certain amount of stat damage then cut it off

bobbryan2
04-08-2010, 02:52 PM
what about treating them like red names and raid bosses give them a certain amount of stat damage then cut it off

While an improvement over the current situation, it would still be vastly lacking in power compared to crippling strike's effect on all other content.

The point of crippling strike is to get creatures auto-critting. Ironically, auto-critting is less useful in epic already, as things have enough HP to still get a few licks in before they die.

As it is, crippling strike is vastly inferior to even using a weighted 5% weapon. (even if crippling strike worked like it did currently, weighted causes them to autocrit AND cease attacking.)

If auto-crit was that powerful.. why would stunning blow and weighted work on epic? With increased functionality even.

Angelus_dead
04-08-2010, 04:26 PM
The point of crippling strike is to get creatures auto-critting.
Not entirely. A partial reduction in strength has value as well. When a Pit Fiend in a Shavarath dungeon goes from +45 to +40 on his attack rolls that can be a big improvement.

In typical dungeons, Rogues can view Crippling Strike as buffing their party with +1 AC and +1 DR per successful sneak attack. But of course in epic there is barely any effect in that regard... in fact, I think most Rogues don't even know that Crippling Strike has a small percentage chance to work, and instead believe it never does anything.

Cyr
04-08-2010, 04:45 PM
Not entirely. A partial reduction in strength has value as well. When a Pit Fiend in a Shavarath dungeon goes from +45 to +40 on his attack rolls that can be a big improvement.

In typical dungeons, Rogues can view Crippling Strike as buffing their party with +1 AC and +1 DR per successful sneak attack. But of course in epic there is barely any effect in that regard... in fact, I think most Rogues don't even know that Crippling Strike has a small percentage chance to work, and instead believe it never does anything.

Indeed. If crippling strike worked like it does normally in EPIC there would be a rather easy way for any party with a rogue to get the to hit's of mobs into the range where many toon's AC's would matter. I think the stat damage pseudo immunity should just be removed from epic. Didn't we already get the whole ability damage nerf to deal with this anyways?

sirgog
04-08-2010, 09:07 PM
My understanding of the effect of stat damage in Epics was that whenever a foe would take stat damage, it instead took 4 less damage to that stat.

So a crit with a Weakening of Enfeebling weapon (with a maximum roll of 6 for Enfeebling) normally does 9 Str damage (including Crippling Strike) but instead deals 5 on Epic.

Reducing that 4 to a 2 would make rogues with WoE somewhat worthwhile at stat damage (somewhere close to the power level of Weighted 5% weapons I'd guess).

Angelus_dead
04-10-2010, 12:50 PM
My understanding of the effect of stat damage in Epics was that whenever a foe would take stat damage, it instead took 4 less damage to that stat.
That might have been the case with an earlier version of Epic Ward, or with Sorjek's Command in Reaver's Refuge.

But currently what Epic Ward does is negate the large majority of stat damage attempts with a random roll. This can be observed when a Rogue attacks epic bosses, because after a while of sneak attacking you start to get the red icon indicating that he's at the limit of 10 strength damage.


So a crit with a Weakening of Enfeebling weapon (with a maximum roll of 6 for Enfeebling) normally does 9 Str damage (including Crippling Strike) but instead deals 5 on Epic.
The resistance is applied separately to each component of damage, so a -4 always reduces Weakening and Crippling Strike to zero.

That's how DDO works in general: resistances apply separately to each effect from an attack, even if those effects are the same damage type. It has been suggested that the game would be improved if all of the same type damage from an attack were added together before subtracting resistance. To do that would make things like different kinds of elemental weapons and resistances more interesting.