Advice for CC-rgr/wiz build

[JanusZeal95]

1) Objective: A "fun toon" which fits my style and is at least viable. As an RP-type of player coming from BG/NWN (last D&D based game i played was actually NWN2), i was a little dissappointed with DDO mechanics and lack of balance. I mean, compared to the last titles i've played, there seems to be A LOT less viable ways of building a char, things seem a little too "one-dimensional" (maybe i'm not familiar with the ddo system yet, but things like huge disadvantage of dex/finesse build, or the lack of shapeshifting, are just a couple examples of things that are really letting me down, I hope there's something i'm not seeing well =\). In spite of this, i'd like to give the game a chance, because it is a lot more difficult/party-dependant than normal (which i like), and the community seems to be a lot better then what you imagine when you think of an MMO game. But as i was saying: if i have to choose between being a little gimped to fit my playstyle or get away from that playstyle to be a little stronger, i'll definetly choose style over power (as long as the difference isn't too big, ofc)

2)Playstyle: I mainly pretend some kind of CC-spellsword with trap-skills. I personally love the idea of manipulating a group of enemies, making them kill each others and then eliminate the ones remaining in combat, one by one, while the others are stopped/occupied (although i understand that it's a lot more difficult to do a CC-spellsword than just a buff-type spellsword, due to the int investment needed, i'd really like to play one if it was viable). In combat, i usually go dex over str (although it seems to be a ver bad option in DDO =( ), using light armor and sword&shield/twf (from what i've read in this forum, the last option seems to be preferable, although i don't know if i could still make it work with a dex-based combatant). As for the "roguish" part, it would be awesome if i could dd/ol and use "sneak-fight" (hide/ms/sneak attack, although this part isn't necessary, trapsmith skills would make me an happy guy already =P). I'll be playing around 5-6hours/week, which really arent that much (unforntunately don't have any more time =\), so i guess i won't be able to "hunt for uber equip" =\

3)Races: Drow or 28pt Human/Elf. I'm aware that WF battlemages are a lot more popular and successful, but i just can't like the looks of it, i've tried, but really can't, seems too "unnatural" =\, and i don't have the favor needed yet anyway (f2p, just got Drow). I'll play with a party of friends half of the time, and probably there will be no WF in the party at all.

4) Classes: It seems i'll have to take at least 1lvl of rogue for trapsmithing. Rangers seems very different from what i'm used to see, but tempest seems fun nonetheless. As for the caster class, wizard seems to be the optimal choice, both for skill points and versatility, but sorcerer can do if there's some general advantage about it (although, besides faster cast-time, i can't see what would benefit a CC-caster that much in sorc over a wiz build).

I've been trying the planner, and was thinking about a Rgr12/Wiz7/Rog1 (lvl4 spells, Tempest II and Trapsmithing skills), but as i have little experience in the actual game, i can't figure out what would be the best order to level up. I hope you guys can help me with that (Note: My attribute distribution will probably be close to that of my NWN char, which is a bit awkward: 12-16-10-18-12-10, if Drow).

[ReaperAlexEU]

wow, you've certainly picked a hard task to pull off :)

ok, first a little about why DDO can be unforgiving on builds. unlike solo games or PnP games DDO has to cater for the munckins and keep them challenged (in solo games munckins beat the game faster and move on, MMO's dont want to you move on). this results in balance issues like the insane AC needed to tank, or more importantly for you a high casting focus to CC effectively.

so, what do you need for the casting focus? well, there are two parts, the DC of your spells, and your ability to punch through SR.

DC is based on the level of the spell your casting + your casting stat. so with your 18 INT and 5 level up points into INT and the feats for spell school focus you should be able to get your DC up. you will be missing out on the possible +3 INT a lvl10 wiz can get, but you will be in reach of the +2 INT a lvl6 wiz can get from enhancements. the +2 is more viable any way as its good bang for buck. so DC will only be let down by the low lvl spells your casting (pure mages can use heighten to make a web as effective as a top level spell)

SR however is based on your class level, which will be 13 lower than a pure wiz, and 2 below a lvl13 wiz from enhancements (1 below a lvl9 wiz too). feats can help, but a mage is likely to have those feats too. this will leave you bouncing off a lot of SR resistance mobs, and its not just drow with SR, lots of the devils have it too which makes up a large chunk of end game.

so, casting wise you might find your CC un-workable in a lot of situations. you can mitigate this by de-buffing mobs first, but that will put a lot of strain on your low spell pool. enervation scrolls can help a lot, but some pure wiz's need to lean on those too to make their CC stick at times.

melee wise you will be missing a large chunk of your attack bonus, even more if you have to pump your casting stat and not your attacking stat. now the good news is the class split your looking at puts you on 15 bab, which is the same as the secondary melee classes like the rogue. so its not the end of the world, if you can pump your melee stat. so thats one large conflict, casting stat or melee stat? both need that +5 from level ups

the rogue splash, well that will go very well with your 18 INT and your 12 ranger levels. maxing out the rogue skills should be quite easy in that respect. but if the only thing you can do well is traps when you want CC and melee then its all a bit of a waste.

so, lets look at some other options. you want CC and melee, with a bit of trap skills on the side if you can. well, a bard gets access to some good CC spells, and is a secondary melee class too! yes, i know, bards tend to have a bit of stigma from other RP games, but in DDO they are welcomed into end game raids with open arms due to their damage boosting songs. all that magical song (it really is magical, watch the barbarians eye's light up when he sees how much damage he can do after you buff him) needs to really do its work is some investment in the enhancement for it. any thing more is just gravy. so, with that magical trick up your sleeve and some work done to make you not squishy (initial investment in CON, 12 min for a front liner, CON item, you will get a +6 even with low play hours, heavy fort for crit immunity, you will get this too and a good false life item, when your rich, not a problem) your good to hit end game.

that leaves you fee to mess about with a build that can do CC and melee. i know there are focused builds for one or the other, but if you poke about the bard section of the forum you might find exactly what your looking for disguised as a musician with a lute.

ok so flavour wise you might be screwing your face up right now, but if your going to RP there is nothing stopping you from attaching the character you want to a bard, especially since bards are very chaotic in nature. just get into some music with rocks in it and you'll be well away :)

[JanusZeal95]

That was a very solid and complete reply, thank you :)

I guess you're right. For this build to work with the pattern i said i'd probably have to go with a more "Eldritch Knight style" levelling, lower my int and focus on STR, using spellcasting only for buffing (thus changing the playstyle to something not so attractive, imo).

Curiously, you seem to be right about bards. Ironically, bard is probably, considering all the classes i know, the one which i least played with, or even had any interest to do so :D, but it actually seems promising (it's built in a totally different way, but seeing some builds, it can allow a playstyle which has some similarities to what i've said in first post ^^). I'll definitely take a look at it when i have some spare time, thank you ;)

If someone has more feedback/suggestions, they'd be appreciated :)

[ReaperAlexEU]

glad you liked my post :)

i think the bard is going to be great for your initial idea.

however if you want to drop the CC then a ranger/rogue will work very well too. rangers have some great buffs and UMD will eventually give you access to lots of other buffs, and even things like raise dead (raid loot will boost that to spells like resurrection, but for your light play hours raise dead is quite achievable)! with 12 ranger you dont need to go finesse, as you get all the high DEX based TWF feats even if you have 8 DEX. its one of the bigger perks of going ranger, oodles of melee prowess with STR based TWF. like you mentioned, little point for going finesse as a ranger. with a character planner you can balance the INT to maintain those rogue skills, just take rogue as your first level for some bonus points to spread about, like in tumble, then you can go 18 ranger and decide what to take for that last level.

that sort of build is fairly common, so it might not float your boat.

i think you'll be better off with a bard as it ticks more boxes, CC em then cut them to shreds. oh and you can charm monsters too, very funny to set the monsters to fight each other. just be aware that you get a feat to dismiss charms so you can kill them when they cease to be useful (or you find it needs to die to allow you to progress). also when partied try to avoid charming monsters the melee's are attacking, it tends to annoy them especially if the mob is charmed just before it dies, wasting their time and your spell points.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The problem here is how to cast offensive spells and get monsters to fail their saves. (and to a lesser degree to penetrate spell resistance)

Spell save DC is 10 + lvl of spell + casting stat modifyer.

Heighten Spell feat raises the lvl of the spell, but onlo to the max lvl that your char can cast. So anything without lvl 9 spells cannot achieve as much from heighten as a pure caster can.

And casting stat modifyer. (lets say Int) Basically needs a maxed stat to reliably get things to save against your spells.
If you max your Intelligence, you have few stat points left to make an effective melee guy. Since you also need Str, Con, and Dex IMO.

then their is Spell Pen that is totally based on caster lvl. With really very few ways to get Spell Pen higher. (although most monsters don't have spell resistance, many do. Epsecially all the devils you fight at higher lvls. And Drow are encountered just about everywhere)

For these reasons, the build in my sig only uses his Wiz spells for buffs. I don't even try to use any offensive spells.

One option I have thought of though is a Rgr/Brd mix. Who uses fascinate as his CC. (and Suggestion song maybe) Since Fascinate is entirely based on Perfom skill, you could just keep that maxed and I think it would still be effective at high lvls.
I would still take some Cha in that kinda build, but not too much. Maybe use a Drow to get a 16 Cha at lvl 1 cheaply. Than take Brd Cha enhancements and wear a Cha item. I think that our be enough. Might have to take perfom enhancements too.

I was looking at Rgr12/Brd8 Tempest II / Virtuoso.

[tihocan]

I would do it like this:

Wizard 18/Rogue 2, True Neutral Drow

Str 12
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 8
Cha 10

Level-ups go into Int.
First level as Rogue, then Wizard for a bit, then 2nd level of Rogue around L10 or so.

Feats:
1 Extend, Toughness
3 Weapon Finesse
5 Maximize
6 Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Empower
10 Heighten
12 Improved TWF
15, 18, 20: your choice :)

[Edit: Oops, this feat order was for a pure wiz, you'll have to move some around on a 18/2, and there is no L20 feat]

Forget about armor or shield, won't help you much on such a build. Because of the low Str your DPS will suck past the mid levels, so your melee will be rather weak overall, except when DPS does not matter (e.g. vorpals). Use Divine Power clickies to still be able to hit something, and make sure you have a light weapon in your off-hand.

Overall I think it'd work better on a THF build (possibly Human), dropping Dex (using Insightful Reflexes for evasion), since you can achieve better melee damage this way.

[JanusZeal95]

@ReaperAlexEU: The rgr/rog path seems attractive(actually started a build of that kind previously) , although i'd probably find it weird to build a toon without SP =P (not sure if my favorite races would be good for that too). Also seen a lot of builds similar to those here, and they seem to work nicely (seems to be it would be a lot faster to pass through the first levels with that kind of toon). Right now i'm a little fascinated with Bard, as it is an all new world for me, for some reason i never think "bard" when i think about spellcasters =P. And about conservating mana, i got used to it quickly, since in my first quest in parties, in Korthos, i was always surrounded with pals/barbs, and needed to learn when and where to cast to keep my SP bar from going empty in a single battle xP

@Talon_Moonshadow: Ranger/bard seems nice, and that build is not very usual, which is a very good think imo =) (actually got curious about your Talonkage =P, what are the benefits of going 5rog instead of 12rgr?). I really don't know the bard spells/songs, and i still need to learn how much each of the attributes influence that class, so that i realize how they should be balanced. I really can't imagine if rgr12/rog8 would work, but according to your words, the fun factor is there xP.

@tihocan: That seems to be close the staple trapsmithing wiz build that we see a lot about in the wizard/multiclass section (usually STR Warforged versions), and according to feedback it works splendidly well (although i was looking for something a little more unique =P). The only issue i think there is in that dex wiz/rog is nuking/meleeing balance. Bab is close to that of a pure wiz, which is pretty low, and i'd probably end up never using melee, because damage spells would be much better (except when out of SP, and in that case i'd probably fail with melee i lot more that i'd want). I think that, in the end, it would end up going far away of what i'm looking for in therms of playstyle, although it would probably be a good addicition to a party, in both power and utility.

Once i have the time (**** university exams >.<), i'll surely check how each one of the bard songs work and maybe then figure out a structured build. You are all being a great help, thank you :)

[tihocan]

Bab is close to that of a pure wiz, which is pretty low, and i'd probably end up never using melee, because damage spells would be much better
This kind of build requires Divine Power clickies (or scrolls), in which case you can achieve a decent to-hit in melee. On such a Dex-based build, however, your damage output would be rather low, so you'd be using mostly special effect weapons (vorpal / smiting / banishing / cursespewing / paralyzing / etc.). Sadly at the highest levels there are many situations where you will face enemies that easily save vs. such effects, or are just plain immune to them, so the melee side definitely gets less interesting. But it could work nicely initially... In any case it's an issue you'll have with *any* dex-based character who wants to do many different things, and thus cannot afford enough Str and melee feats for good melee DPS.

[unbongwah]

I'm fond of my drow rogue / bard / fighter who took the Virtuoso PrE and dual-wields rapiers or short swords: rogue provides trap skills (duh), Evasion, and a bit of sneak attack; bard provides songs for buffs & CC and spells for heals & buffs; fighter is for the extra feat(s). Build is something like this:

Base stats 14 / 16 / 12 / 14 / 8 / 16 with all level-ups into DEX. Could start with lower INT, but that makes it harder to maintain all skills; or lower CHA for higher DEX.

Feats (w/1 ftr lvl): for Virtuoso - TWF, Finesse (ftr bonus), Toughness, SF Perform, ITWF, Imp Crit Pierce, GTWF, Extend Spell; for Warchanter - swap SF Perform and Toughness for Power Attack & WF Pierce and swap Extend for Toughness. Can take ftr 2 for extra feat.

Skills: primary skills are Perform, UMD, Disable Device, Search; secondary are Concentration, Diplomacy, Haggle, and Open Lock.

Levels: at least bard 15 / rogue 2 / fighter 1; for last two lvls pick 2 of 3, depending on what you're willing to give up - lvl 6 spell, +1D6 sneak attack, or extra feat.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

@ReaperAlexEU: The rgr/rog path seems attractive(actually started a build of that kind previously) , although i'd probably find it weird to build a toon without SP =P (not sure if my favorite races would be good for that too). Also seen a lot of builds similar to those here, and they seem to work nicely (seems to be it would be a lot faster to pass through the first levels with that kind of toon). Right now i'm a little fascinated with Bard, as it is an all new world for me, for some reason i never think "bard" when i think about spellcasters =P. And about conservating mana, i got used to it quickly, since in my first quest in parties, in Korthos, i was always surrounded with pals/barbs, and needed to learn when and where to cast to keep my SP bar from going empty in a single battle xP

@Talon_Moonshadow: Ranger/bard seems nice, and that build is not very usual, which is a very good think imo =) (actually got curious about your Talonkage =P, what are the benefits of going 5rog instead of 12rgr?). I really don't know the bard spells/songs, and i still need to learn how much each of the attributes influence that class, so that i realize how they should be balanced. I really can't imagine if rgr12/rog8 would work, but according to your words, the fun factor is there xP.

@tihocan: That seems to be close the staple trapsmithing wiz build that we see a lot about in the wizard/multiclass section (usually STR Warforged versions), and according to feedback it works splendidly well (although i was looking for something a little more unique =P). The only issue i think there is in that dex wiz/rog is nuking/meleeing balance. Bab is close to that of a pure wiz, which is pretty low, and i'd probably end up never using melee, because damage spells would be much better (except when out of SP, and in that case i'd probably fail with melee i lot more that i'd want). I think that, in the end, it would end up going far away of what i'm looking for in therms of playstyle, although it would probably be a good addicition to a party, in both power and utility.

Once i have the time (**** university exams >.<), i'll surely check how each one of the bard songs work and maybe then figure out a structured build. You are all being a great help, thank you :)

My build was an evolution from four years ago. And caped at 10, 12, 14, 16 before now. I didn't plan him for 20 originally. But he's worked out ok.
Rgr 11 is very good. But Rgr 12 would give +5 Barkskin and Tempest II or another second tier PRE. I took Wiz 5 for Haste and Displacement.
Rog 4 is a little harder to justify. I didn't start Rog, and I felt I needed more skill poiint to keep my trap skills up. Plus my AC isn't that high, so I just didn't see that I gained much from Rgr 12 over Rgr 11.

But to restate, I use my Wiz spels for buffs only, so no worry about saves. I have Extend Spell feat so my Wix spells usually last 10 min. I use Blur, Expeditious Retreat, Shield (which seems nice for a TWFer and archer type, but my AC really isn't high enough to get much from it.) And Summon Monster I (for stealthy distractions...and because I couldn't think of anything else useful.. lol)
Also False Life, Invisibility. And of course 1 min Haste and Displacement.

Displacement remains a very good buff at the highest lvls of the game. Although there are ways to craft an item to cast displacement, or you could make an Elf with the dragon marks to get it. Or if you have a static group just ask a friendly mage.

Ive had fun with my build, but it's difficult to figure out which class to take as you are lvling up, and doesn't really come together until lvl 18-20. And by then, you could have other ways to get what I have without sacrificing DPS and HP.

One other possibility that I have been trying to figure out a good build for, is a pure Wizard who can melee and range as well as casting spells.
An Elf seems a good choice, but a human would have more feats.
And if I try the archer part, it gets too difficult IMO. (not enough feats)

I do have an old Drow Wizard with a high Dex and Wep finesse and a bunch of nice rapiers though. She's a fun build too. But doesn't do much damage in melee combat. She does hit well though and uses vorpals, banishers, disruptors, paralyser, and smiters quite well.

Of course you may get most of what you want from a pure bard too.

[JanusZeal95]

Ok, done a first "complete" build, although i'm still having some (many?) issues with balancing:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Janus Zeal
Level 20 Chaotic Good Drow Male
(20 Bard)
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 964
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 16
Will: 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 12 12 12
Dexterity 17 17 19
Constitution 12 12 12
Intelligence 10 10 10
Wisdom 10 10 10
Charisma 17 17 22

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 7 27 27
Bluff 3 6 6
Concentration 5 24 28
Diplomacy 3 6 6
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 3 6 6
Heal 0 0 0
Hide 3 4 4
Intimidate 3 6 6
Jump 5 24 24
Listen 0 0 2
Move Silently 3 4 4
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform 7 29 29
Repair 0 0 0
Search 0 0 2
Spot 0 0 2
Swim 1 1 1
Tumble 7 27 27
Use Magic Device 7 29 31

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Summon Monster I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 4 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Soundburst
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (2): Hold Person
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 8 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dominate Person
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III


Level 12 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Summon Monster V
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 16 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Summon Monster VI
Spell (6): Greater Shout
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Spell (1): Master's Touch
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Mass Suggestion
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Mass Charm Monster
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III


Level 20 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I



Went spellsinger, since there are many more dps dealers out there then CCers (and "spellsinger" sounds a lot cooler xD), but really don't know which is better. I found it hard to pick the enhancements / enhancement gaining order, since i have no experience in mid-end game, might need to change a lot in that department. Drow seems to be the best option i have right now, since i can only put 28pts in the other races for now.

About attributes: for some reason dex enhancements aren't counting for feat prereqs, so i have to go 17 dex from the start, which limits things a little. I'm thinking if it would be better or not to put 2 more points in str and dropping finesse and 1pt of char (since i can't take it from dex because of twf feats), but i fear the CC will suffer with that. 10 Wis is for flavour only.

In the spell department, i read the spell specs and remembered the experience i had with bard teammates (which is not much...) to pick the ones who seemed better. I tried to avoid redundancy in spells from different lvls (i'm used to wiz, so i usually don't have to worry about that, so might have done a few mistakes/bad choices). Summon monster spells are just a personal preference too, but in this case i think they don't have that much of a negative impact.


Probably (certainly, really...), there are things that will have to change to make this work, and i hope you help with that changes, since i have no knowledge to do much better that this on my own right now.

Once i have 32pt builds available i might do a less-cc version spellsword with the trapsmithing skills i had to give up to here (which is what i'm more used to play, actually, something close to the rgr12/bard8 Talon talked about, in terms of playstyle, but using an altered version of the rgr12/wiz7/rog1i said before), but for now i think the bard would have a better fun factor, and maybe work a little better without needing a "real" 32pt build.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

The only things that count towards feat pre-reqs are Starting+Tome+Level Ups.

Anything that can change does not count, such as enhancements and items.


I have a non-standard build with a similar idea in mind to your original post. You can see him here: http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/bebot/

I plan on him being 10 wiz/10 rogue. I want that many rogue levels to get the improved evasion feat and to be effective with dual wielding. The 18/2 builds generally drop any attempt at fighting with weapons and are essentially wizards who can do traps.

I play him as a rogue, who can self buff, self heal, drop his own firewalls to fight in. I don't use any CC.

edit: ignore the shield showing in myddo.. just looted it the last time I logged out and was looking to see what it looked like.

[tihocan]

Ok, done a first "complete" build, although i'm still having some (many?) issues with balancing: (...)
Main issue I see with your build that it will not really be effective at high level:
- Melee-wise, with your low Strength, no Improved Crit and no Power Attack, your DPS will be rather useless (except when vorpals work). But that's to be expected (see last sentence in my post above), and can be tolerated on a build where melee is not the primary focus.
- A potentially more serious issue is you will have trouble with your spells as well. You don't have Extend (for short-term buffs and CC spells), Empower Healing (for Mass Cures), nor any Spell Penetration or Spell Focus (to reliably land CC at higher levels).

[JanusZeal95]

@7-day_Trial_Monkey: thanks for the info about the enhancements. And your build is very uncommon indeed :). However, it actually seems "too" good =P. You've used some tomes/are using a 32pt WF, right? (i'd like to see that and the feats you took, but i can't see that there =S) Unfortunately, i probably won't be using any of those =\

@tihocan: thanks for the input, that was something i've been having problems with, since the beggining, i guess the game refuses to let us do melee and cc viably with the same toon :(. But what atribbute split (as a bard20 drow) would you reccomend then? =S

I made two builds:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Janus Zeal
Level 20 Neutral Good Drow Male
(20 Bard)
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 935
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 16
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 17 19
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 21

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 27
Bluff 3 5
Concentration 5 28
Diplomacy 3 5
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 4
Intimidate 3 5
Jump 6 28
Listen 2 23
Move Silently 3 4
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 7 28
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 1
Swim 2 5
Tumble 4 5
Use Magic Device 7 30

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+3)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Spell (1): Hypnotism


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Summon Monster I


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
Spell (1): Charm Person


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Soundburst


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Hold Person
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Displacement


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
Spell (3): Charm Monster


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (4): Hold Monster
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dominate Person


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (5): Greater Heroism


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Summon Monster V


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Heroics


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Master's Touch
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Spell (6): Summon Monster VI
Spell (6): Greater Shout


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Mass Suggestion
Spell (3): Haste


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Mass Charm Monster
Spell (4): Break Enchantment


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Listen (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Spellsinger I
Enhancement: Bard Musical Prodigy
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III




This one is a remake of the previously posted. I dropped finesse and put the level-ups in str, which can have changed the playstyle a bit (str16/dex16 would be a lot better, but since i have no access to tomes this will have to do it =\, and wis stayed at 8, which i don't like very much either). Now, as i don't know the mid-end game, i'd like to know if, with that low charisma, can i still try to CC, at least until mid-game? (i think this 2nd build gives some boost, but i'm sacrificing spellcast, i'd like that at least the songs could do reasonably well this way) Also, with this concept, should i go with warchanter instead of spellsinger (warchanter seems to be better for dps, but it's a little harder to meet the prereqs (and i really wanted to go twf instead of thf...)? And in feats, is Men.Though. worth it? or Should i get heigthen earlier for spellsinger and go GTWF or IC:Piercing later? And finally, is haggle more valuable then Listen (i know how listen works, but have no exp with haggle)?

----------


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Janus Zeal
Level 20 Neutral Good Drow Male
(1 Rogue \ 12 Ranger \ 7 Wizard)
Hit Points: 212
Spell Points: 718
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 14 19
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 10 10
Charisma 12 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 8
Bluff 1 1
Concentration 1 24
Diplomacy 1 1
Disable Device 6 24
Haggle 1 1
Heal 0 0
Hide 6 8
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 7 9
Listen 4 6
Move Silently 5 7
Open Lock 6 10
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 28
Spot 4 16
Swim 3 5
Tumble 3 5
Use Magic Device 5 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Spell (1): Burning Hands
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (1): Shield
Spell (1): Summon Monster I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (1): Mage Armor
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): False Life


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Spell (2): Fog Cloud


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (3): Fireball


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Sleet Storm


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Spell (4): Wall of Fire


Level 15 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Mass Camouflage
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Protection From Energy
Spell (2): Snare
Spell (2): Spike Growth
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II


Level 17 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion


Level 18 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 19 (Ranger)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Neutralize Poison
Spell (3): Remove Disease
Spell (3): Summon Nature's Ally III
Spell (3): Wild Instincts


Level 20 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II




This one was my first idea (in terms of classes, not playstyle). Here i sacrifice CC to gain Trapsmithing abilities (although i'd like someone to tell me if Spot and especially OL are high enough the way they are, in order to at least open "almost" every lock, with enough tries (i've read there's not much need to had too many skill pts into OL when multiclassing, and UMD seems to be very important end-game =S). And finally, should i get the enhancements in fire spell dmg (for fireball/fire wall) or is the damage so low anyway, that is is useless to do so?


Thank you very much, everyone, for the help you've been giving to me, i'm glad i went here before starting to play these builds :)

[tihocan]

@tihocan: thanks for the input, that was something i've been having problems with, since the beggining, i guess the game refuses to let us do melee and cc viably with the same toon :(. But what atribbute split (as a bard20 drow) would you reccomend then? =S
With a 28 pt build and no tome, I find it much easier by going Two-Handed Fighting:
- you can drop Dex which allows you to get higher Str and Casting stat
- you don't need all 3 THF feats to be reasonably effective in melee (while with TWF it having all 3 TWF feats is highly recommended)
- you don't get -2 to-hit so it is easier to hit even without a high melee stat
- you don't need Finesse compared to Dex-based TWF

A 20 Bard drow, THF with 18 Cha, 16 Str and level-ups in Cha can do some support melee and keep focus on CC.

[JanusZeal95]

With a 28 pt build and no tome, I find it much easier by going Two-Handed Fighting:
- you can drop Dex which allows you to get higher Str and Casting stat
- you don't need all 3 THF feats to be reasonably effective in melee (while with TWF it having all 3 TWF feats is highly recommended)
- you don't get -2 to-hit so it is easier to hit even without a high melee stat
- you don't need Finesse compared to Dex-based TWF

A 20 Bard drow, THF with 18 Cha, 16 Str and level-ups in Cha can do some support melee and keep focus on CC.

You're right about that, but i'd want to avoid THF unless it was waay better than twf, because, flavour-wise, it's not really one of my choices, and also wouldn't seem wise to use the Drow race i've played until now to gain (would probably go Human if THF). Is the difference between twf and thf that big? =\

[JanusZeal95]

I'll start building the char in a few days, and right now i still have some doubts about the details of the future toon build.

Tihocan suggestion really made me wish i had 32pt builds, but unfortunately i don't, and i feel (besides the flavour reasons stated above) that i wouldn't be taking any kind of advantage from drow that way.

Recently i had another question, which probably has a basic answer: if i understood correctly, the max stat boost in items is +6. Does that mean i should try to avoid at all costs having a lvl20 odd number in any stat (That would mean, for example, that in the 2nd-rgr/wiz/rog build, it would be better to go 15str/16int, adding more skills and keeping str at 20 max, which would actually be "the same" as 21)?

If someone has the time/pacience to comment about the builds/build questions i made in the "two-build post", it would be appreciated. =P

[tihocan]

Is the difference between twf and thf that big? =\
I wasn't saying that THF is better than TWF, but that it's easier to achieve on a caster. You can make a drow TWF bard but then it seems best to just drop offensive casting and focus on melee (in which case Str-based TWF will be more efficient than Dex-based). I just don't see how you can get both efficient TWF melee and offensive casting with the few feats a pure bard can get.


Recently i had another question, which probably has a basic answer: if i understood correctly, the max stat boost in items is +6. Does that mean i should try to avoid at all costs having a lvl20 odd number in any stat (That would mean, for example, that in the 2nd-rgr/wiz/rog build, it would be better to go 15str/16int, adding more skills and keeping str at 20 max, which would actually be "the same" as 21)?
No, there are tons of different ways to go beyond +6 compared to your initial starting stat. Trying to figure out whether +1 in a stat is useful or not is rather pointless (personally I consider it as a +0.5 modifier when trying to balance starting stats).

[unbongwah]

Your bard build is trying a little too hard to be good at both melee & CC spells: pick one or the other to focus on.

If you choose melee, lower your CHA a bit to pump up STR to 16, continue putting all your level-ups into STR, and focus on melee feats (TWF, Imp Crit, etc.). Take either Warchanter for the DPS boost or Virtuoso for the CC-song boost. You may also want to consider a fighter splash for extra feats and/or rogue for Evasion and trap skills (if so, take rogue at first level to maximize your skill points).

If you choose CC spells, lower your STR & DEX to get CHA up to at least 18, put all level-ups into CHA, and focus on metamagic feats (SF Enchantment, Heighten, etc.). Stay pure to get the bard capstone. Your melee DPS is gonna bite (lower STR, not enough feats for TWF); you might be better off picking up heavy repeaters to provide cover fire from the rear (look for weapons which do debuffs on crits).

Haggle automatically lowers the prices you pay at vendors and raises the prices they pay for the loot you sell; if you don't already have a hagglebot, I would definitely max it out. I also recommend Diplomacy to reduce aggro. You can afford to drop Listen and lower Balance & Jump to move the skill points.