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View Full Version : More variety in trap skill outcomes



Angelus_dead
04-07-2010, 02:17 PM
Repeating an old favorite (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=210923) suggestion from when DDO was new. The recent adjustments to epic trap DCs have put a spotlight on this issue.

Problem
Not all dungeons contain traps, but when one does it is desirable that having trap skills (Spot, Search, and Disable Device) is beneficial. That means higher skills should give more benefit. Unfortunately DDO's trap mechanics mostly resolve to a binary PASS/FAIL resolution, so most variations in skill numbers make no difference unless you happened to be very close to the threshold. The system does not support a 50 skill giving better results than 0 and an 80 being better than 50.

There are numerous things that can be done to make a wider range of trap skills meaningful, so player characters will be rewarded for being better at those skills, without excluding less-skilled characters from participating in those traps at all.

1. Spot range. The current system uses a single trap icon when you come close to a trap and pass the spot DC. Replace that graphic with four new icons of different intensity, such as backgrounds that are white, pink, red, or jagged red. The jagged red icon functions as the current one does. If you are 3 "meters" away and exceed the Spot DC by +5 you instead get a red icon. Three more meters and +10 Spot gives you pink, and a +15 Spot will let you get a white icon at a distance of 9 meters. This would mean that Rogues with enough extra Spot can warn teammates about traps without having to be so far in front.

2. Search range. For each +5 that a character exceeds the Search requirement, he can detect the object from an additional +25% distance, to a maximum of 200% distance at +20.

3. Search speed. As the progress bar hits 25%, 50%, and 75%, resolve a search attempt with -15, -10, and -5 skill modifiers. This means that a character whose skill is higher than needed can finish searching earlier and move on to other things.

4. Tool conservation. When a Disable Device or Open Locks check suceeds with a result +5, +10, or +15 above the requirement, there is a respective 25%, 50%, or 75% chance that the Thief Tool from the attempt is not consumed.

5. Improvised tool. When a character attempts a Disable Device or Open Locks check but does not have any Thief Tool, he instead plays through a 5 second animation which creates a single Improvised Thief Tool, build from whatever random trash he could find. This tool provides a -5 penalty to skill checks when used, but may enable a high-skill character to succeed even if the player forgot to bring supplies.

6. Partial disabling. Unlike the other suggestions, this is not a global change, but a new kind of element dungeon designers may use (especially in higher-level content). Create a new category of traps
which can be disabled wholely or in part. If you beat the Disable DC then the trap merely loses 20% damage, 4 save DC, and 5% repeat speed. If you beat the DC by +8 then it takes double that penalty.
Beating the DC by +16 will actually turn off the trap as usual. This kind of trap box remains interactible to allow more attempts after partial successes. Optionally, quest designers could customize the numbers for each stage of disarmament.

7. Compound traps. Similar to partial disabling, except that instead of the trap box controlling one obstacle that gets weakened, the one box has 2-4 trap elements, each with a different Disable DC to turn it off. Note that designers could do this already manually, but that would mean 4 control boxes and 4 times as long waiting on Disable animations.

With all of those changes it should be possible to reward Rogues with great skills without shutting out those whose skill numbers are merely good.

ssgcmwatson
04-08-2010, 01:48 AM
From a role-play perspective, I thought it would be interesting to have a catastrophic failure on an Open Locks roll similar to a trap box exploding... perhaps something like "you mucked that up so badly that your tools are now jammed in the lock... this door isn't opening any time soon"

Kriogen
04-08-2010, 06:49 AM
1. Traps are visible on map/radar if spotted. And when spotted, they make a "ping". The higher Spot/Search skills, the longer range. Visible on every party member radar/map And "ping" for all!

2. ok

3. make it instant. Current long animation is just useless fluff. Especially as Detect Door or True Sight have built-in instant search for hidden doors.

4. very good idea

5. if your skill check is much higher then trap/lock DC, you need no tools (also look at 4)

6. interesting. Sounds fair. Hey, if fighter/barb is unlucky, rolls low on tohit, he gets a new chance in nano-seconds. But rogue can only recall/regroup :/


*added*
8. If trapsmiths skill checks are high enough, Search "animation" also does Disable Device. Can be a "stance" like precise shot (improved).

9. If trapsmiths skill check is high enough, "Spot-Danger" also does an automatic Search.

The fact that traps exists in DDO is fine, good. But the problem with traps is, that only 1 party member is "playing" traps and all other 5-11 party members are forced to wait and get bored. Funny thing is, after a while even trap-smith gets bored. Push a button, wait. Push another button, wait more.

Eladiun
04-08-2010, 07:57 AM
/signed +1 for good ideas rather than complaints

Angelus_dead
04-08-2010, 04:22 PM
6. interesting. Sounds fair. Hey, if fighter/barb is unlucky, rolls low on tohit, he gets a new chance in nano-seconds. But rogue can only recall/regroup :/
Yes, it isn't really good for either gameplay or verisimilitude that a Rogue can attempt disable and wind up permanently immunizing that trap from future disabling. But that is a surprisingly complicated problem to fix, and is a little bit outside of this topic.

But obviously, there are a lot of bad things a critical failure could do to you without leaving the trap immune to disabling.

gavagai
04-08-2010, 04:29 PM
Other things to build upon the utility of skills for rogues and trappers:

-- Consider adding a bonus to trap saves based on Tumble ranks. +1 per 10 ranks, perhaps?

-- Consider allowing a Repair skill check when a Critical Fail is rolled to "save" the trap from busting.

-- Add Swim ranks to all saving throws.

Borror0
04-08-2010, 04:30 PM
Add Swim ranks to all saving throws.
Just to be sure, that one was a joke, right?

gavagai
04-08-2010, 04:35 PM
Just to be sure, that one was a joke, right?

Somewhere between "joke" and "pipe dream."

The other two are sincere suggestions, though.

sephiroth1084
05-18-2010, 03:24 PM
Another excellent suggestion from A_D.

I'd really love to see compound traps! We're long overdue for more interesting traps in the game.

Think about something like the ramp trap in The Cursed Crypt:
2 parts:
1) Grease on ramps makes it hard/impossible to get up the ramp.
2) Spinning blade traps mince you up as you go up the stairs.

The two elements work very well together, but also function separately: the grease is annoying in and of itself from a time standpoint, but also functions with the shooting gallery of skeletons that spawn above the party.

The spinning blades clearly benefit from people sliding into them and being unable to run out, but are also a reasonable hazard all by their lonesome.

A compound box could set one or the other to a higher DC, allowing for either both the grease and blades to be disarmed, or both, perhaps with a higher chance of blowing the trap after disarming one.

Joseph
08-31-2010, 05:58 AM
I would like very much, instead of watching my party members run through the trap and die or take damage - and then ask why I didn't mention it to them before (while I am saying to them or typing that there is a trap ahead) - that ALL party members within a certain radius (or just all party members regardless) get a notification icon on their screen that there is a trap.

Also - when I pass a listen or spot check, I get DM text that gives me messages or clues. It would be nice for all party members to get that same type of DM text when a rogue spots a trap. In reality the rogue would immediately tell everyone to stop. As it is now, you have to either shout it or type it in 0.5 seconds.

+1 for a good suggestion AD

aislabylad
08-31-2010, 08:20 AM
There are a lot of good ideas on here. I like the partial disabling device idea and the time saving of combining 2 of the actions. Mainly the spot search combo would save a lot of time.

Sintwar
08-31-2010, 11:13 AM
Signed.

I like all of the ideas.

Ybbald
08-31-2010, 11:21 AM
These all sound very nice. I hate when I can't type fast enough and someone dies. Or I need to search repeatedly in different places

Tiamos
08-31-2010, 03:02 PM
Overall I think A_D's ideas here are really cool and could be adapted into other areas of the game as well. Expanding from success/fail into a broader range of results could be an interesting dynamic in many areas of the game (IE adding spell misfires on a concentration check fails).

However, I disagree with #4 and #5 as it makes the trap resource management even more trivial. Steps should instead be taken so that each tool kit feels MORE valuable. As it is now, the toolkits are merely annoyances that take up inventory space.

@Korigan: You bring up a fantastic point on that the trap game is something that one player plays while 5-11 other players wait. Perhaps the entire mechanic for spot and search should be changed:

Spot: When a trap or secret door is detected, an icon appears above the head of the spotter that the whole party can see. Additionally, a tone plays for the party. The spotter sees some faint outlines that hint where the trap or secret door is located, much like when the spot a sneaking enemy. This makes spot more useful in two ways: 1) if the party is paying attention to the spotter, they can catch hints in their "body language" that danger is near 2) spot gives a rough idea where that danger actually is

Search: Becomes an active stance much like sneak. While searching, the player moves slower and any danger within a short radius of the player (that their search check can succeed on finding) is automatically revealed. This gives more of a feel of searching around for the traps, while making things quicker for players that are already familiar with where everything is located.

Rubiconn
08-31-2010, 03:44 PM
I just started playing my first rogue and went through a dungeon a few levels higher than my current one and was taking a lot of **** because I couldnt spot the traps. I like a lot of the suggestions particularly the active search, the ranged search dependent on skill, the partial disabling. I dont care for the toolless disable that any toon could get lucky I am just thinking a Barb or fighter with an Intell of 8 should have no chance to disable anything.
I like the idea of different effects from differing success of disable. Your tools could get stuck in a lock or in the trap and leave it on all the time instead of burst or something fun like that.

rest
08-31-2010, 05:18 PM
I always wished for a way to speed up the disabling process. More ranks = faster disable seems awesome to me. Same with search.

Or add in an enhancement line with breakpoints in skill ranks for the pre-reqs.
5 TRAINED RANKS (not with items/stat points) = 5% reduction
10 = 10%
15 = 15%
20 = 20% <---MAX

Something like that.