Another 13rog/ 6rang/ 1x question, but diff

[JarvisW]

Hi, I just got back into the game, and I'm about to level up to 13 so I had a few questions. I did read several build threads, but as I'm returning I have no idea how I built him, and where I was going.

I like to solo, but I also like to be a good trapmonkey for PUGs

I'm Human, True N, 10rog/ 2 rng.
S14/ Dx19+2enh/ Con 9+1tome/ int 16+2 tome/ Wis 9/ Cha 8+1enh
I am maxed on DD, UMD, Sneak, spot, search, Jump and Bal. (didn't do diplo and bluff for some ******** reason)

Mostly Bow feats.


Now to the question at hand!
I remember always crying about having no will save, so I was thinking about getting a level of Bard (ignore arcane spell fail and Ex Retreat) or Cleric (would it even help with my Res scrolls, I'm about 80% already) for my 3rd, instead of Fighter (and taking Iron Will as my free feat), BUT, as I have under 10 in their casting stats, will it even let me, and would they be worth it?

I don't have access to Monk yet, and may not on this guy by the time hes 20 and may just wait till he gets to re-roll for that class. (unless I can earn one thru favor? Im 500 pts from buying it)


So, at lvl 13, should I even take my 3rd class now, or should I do one lvl of Ranger instead and work out my 3rd by the time I level next?

Thanks so much, I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the new info, and the search feature here isn't the best for these kinds of questions.

[unbongwah]

Monks need to be lawful, so that's not an option even after you unlock monk.

No one recommends a caster splash just to use wands & scrolls, especially if you've got max UMD.

It would be easier to make recommendations if you decided exactly what you wanted to be able to do. Are you willing to do a Lesser / Greater Reincarnation?

[AMDarkwolf]

Like he said, can't be monk(Lawful) but i THINK U might wanna loot at barb(one level = 10% movement speed, small rage clicky, etc)

[honkuimushi]

Also, you usually want to go with more Ranger levels at first to get TWF and ITWF more quickly. As you are now, you need to take Ranger 6 by level 17 to get GTWF or make your x level Fighter at level 19 and use your bonus feat for GTWF. So 4 of your next 5 levels have to be Ranger or you can do the Fighter level at 19 and 4 of your next 6 levels have to be Ranger.

Your skills will suffer either way. If you had taken more Ranger levels at first, you could space out your Rogue levels to say, 2 Ranger folowed by 1 Rogue, to keep DD, OL and UMD high while still paying 1 skill point per Rank. But having to take so many Ranger levels so late doesn't give you enough time to catch up without paying double on your Ranger levels.

Honestly, a +3 Reincarnation would be the best choice here. Level up to 13 as a Ranger then Reincarnate. First level should be Rogue, then take Ranger until you run out of changes. Don't bother to put any skill points into Rogue skills that are not Ranger skills unless you have extra points. One you start getting back into Rogue levels, catch up on your skills. Then, at level 14 take Fighter and use that bonus feat for GTWF. From there on, it's all Rogue.

This should also give you a chance to fix your stats and feats. Your Con is way too low. And the 13/6/1 builds are not really that effective as a Ranged build and Sneak Attack is not that effective with bows. The 13/6/1 builds have some ranged ability, but for a ranged build, you usually want an elf and either go Ranger 20 or combine Kensai and Arcane Archer. The 13/6/1 builds rely on having Tempest. So you'll need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Toughness, Improved Critical, and GTWF at a minimum. With a Fighter splash, you have 3 more feats. Feel free to add Improved Critical: Ranged in there, but going beyond that doesn't really play to the strengths of the build.

You will need a 17 Dex for GTWF, but beyond that, Dex really doesn't help you that much without a Monk splash. I would recommend a 15 or 16 Dex, a 12 Int(14 with tome) 14 Con and the rest into Str. Level ups should also go to Str. Use a tome to get your Dex to 17.

It is up to you of course, but I see this build having a lot of problems in Gianthold and beyond without radical changes.

[JarvisW]

Also, you usually want to go with more Ranger levels at first to get TWF and ITWF more quickly. As you are now, you need to take Ranger 6 by level 17 to get GTWF or make your x level Fighter at level 19 and use your bonus feat for GTWF. So 4 of your next 5 levels have to be Ranger or you can do the Fighter level at 19 and 4 of your next 6 levels have to be Ranger.

Your skills will suffer either way. If you had taken more Ranger levels at first, you could space out your Rogue levels to say, 2 Ranger folowed by 1 Rogue, to keep DD, OL and UMD high while still paying 1 skill point per Rank. But having to take so many Ranger levels so late doesn't give you enough time to catch up without paying double on your Ranger levels.

Honestly, a +3 Reincarnation would be the best choice here. Level up to 13 as a Ranger then Reincarnate. First level should be Rogue, then take Ranger until you run out of changes. Don't bother to put any skill points into Rogue skills that are not Ranger skills unless you have extra points. One you start getting back into Rogue levels, catch up on your skills. Then, at level 14 take Fighter and use that bonus feat for GTWF. From there on, it's all Rogue.

This should also give you a chance to fix your stats and feats. Your Con is way too low. And the 13/6/1 builds are not really that effective as a Ranged build and Sneak Attack is not that effective with bows. The 13/6/1 builds have some ranged ability, but for a ranged build, you usually want an elf and either go Ranger 20 or combine Kensai and Arcane Archer. The 13/6/1 builds rely on having Tempest. So you'll need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Toughness, Improved Critical, and GTWF at a minimum. With a Fighter splash, you have 3 more feats. Feel free to add Improved Critical: Ranged in there, but going beyond that doesn't really play to the strengths of the build.

You will need a 17 Dex for GTWF, but beyond that, Dex really doesn't help you that much without a Monk splash. I would recommend a 15 or 16 Dex, a 12 Int(14 with tome) 14 Con and the rest into Str. Level ups should also go to Str. Use a tome to get your Dex to 17.

It is up to you of course, but I see this build having a lot of problems in Gianthold and beyond without radical changes.

Ok, lots of great advice from everyone!

As to my lvl choices, well it was built for lvl 10, then they pushed the cap to 12, so I never thought about lvl 20!

As for all ranger, well, I like to solo, and max my trap skills, so thats why I went this way.. I have some great bows, and used to get the most kills, in groups quite often, so I thought this was a pretty good system going.. But with almost half the game ahead of me, I see there are holes...

I'm not sure why I'd want GTWF and SpringA, unless its for the few times I use TWF, and there are several times I just whip out sword and board, if things start to hit to hard!

Getting more Con is fine, so whats recommended? 11+1 or 13+1?

I'm researching Elf Enhancements, and checking into that line.. Is that where the Prestige Classes show up? I had seen they were in, just not where you find them.

I'm probably going to Reincarnate 3, 32pt build, and change to Elf as recommended, I'm about to use Rons Builder and will be back shortly...

THANKS EVERYONE, and especially to Honkuimushi!

[honkuimushi]

Ok, lots of great advice from everyone!

As to my lvl choices, well it was built for lvl 10, then they pushed the cap to 12, so I never thought about lvl 20!

As for all ranger, well, I like to solo, and max my trap skills, so thats why I went this way.. I have some great bows, and used to get the most kills, in groups quite often, so I thought this was a pretty good system going.. But with almost half the game ahead of me, I see there are holes...

I'm not sure why I'd want GTWF and SpringA, unless its for the few times I use TWF, and there are several times I just whip out sword and board, if things start to hit to hard!

Getting more Con is fine, so whats recommended? 11+1 or 13+1?

I'm researching Elf Enhancements, and checking into that line.. Is that where the Prestige Classes show up? I had seen they were in, just not where you find them.

I'm probably going to Reincarnate 3, 32pt build, and change to Elf as recommended, I'm about to use Rons Builder and will be back shortly...

THANKS EVERYONE, and especially to Honkuimushi!

Okay first off, right now only TR can change race. Ranged is considered pretty weak overall, but the new Aracane Archer additions have made it a bit better. But to take Aracane Archer to that point you need about 18 levels of ranger or to be an elf. And the Ranger capstone at level 20 gives you a big boost to rate of fire. So if you want an archer, you're best off starting a new character.

As for AC, you need a 45-50 AC in Gianthold for AC to be much use and by end game you'll want to shoot for 65-70 self buffed to get any use of it. Remember, there are only 18 points separating gets hit 5% of the time and gets hit 95% of the time. If you're not within 18 points of the watermark, you could have a 10 AC for all the good it will do you. The thing is, without a Monk splash, I don't see how you'll get there. That's why I recommend Str. If you're going to get hit anywany, you might as well kill things faster.

That's also why I recommend going for dual wield. You have a lot of Sneak Attack damage, but unless you're withing 30 feet, you don't get any. Being that close will put you within reach of a lot of mobs. You also need to fit in Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot since you won't get them from Ranger 11. Having only 6 levels of Ranger limits your to only the first arrows and Imbue from Arcane Archer-- it's not enough for a full time archer. However, 6 levels of Ranger allows you to take Tempest I, which gives you a 10% boost to dual weilding attack speed. When you combine that with your Sneak Attack, you do a lot of damage. Tempest is what makes the 13/6/1 builds work. And GTWF grants you even more attacks.

Arcane Archer and Tempest are both PrEs. The way they were implemented is as enhancements. They have a number of prereqs-- a combination of feats and enhancements. Most of them are available at class levels 6/12/18. There are 3 PrEs for each class planned but not all have been released and currently, some PrEs only have 1 or 2 tiers. Some PrEs are also considered racial, so if you are the right race, you can take the PrE without any levels in that PrEs class. But you can't take 2 form the same class. The only racial PrE currently available is the Arcane Archer for elves. So can take 18 Fighter levels and take Kensai and Arcane Archer if you are an elf. But you can't take 20 levels of Ranger and take Arcane Archer and Tempest or Deepwood Sniper.

The prereqs for Arcane Archer are Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus:Ranged, and then a choice of several spell point enhancers like Mental Toughness or Energy of the Scholar and so on. For Tempest, the prereqs are Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. That's why I recommended those feats.

As for Con, since AC has become so tough to keep relevant, most people forget it entirely around level 13. Instead, hp and heavy fortification become the main lines of defence. So I would recommend 14+1 for Con and use your Human Adaptability to get 1 more point of Con. That will unlock a 3rd Toughness enhancement form human. Combine that with 1 Toughness enhancement form Fighter 1 and you should reach the 350 hp you'll need by level 16.

Things have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. AC is really tough to get and useless unless you spend the resources to get it to insane levels. Hp are king. 20th level Fighters are usually aiming for 500-600 hp. As a Rogue, you probably want to be over 400. I know it's tough to adjust. I remember back then you almost never saw a Barbarian and anyone without a shield was a gimp. Now you'll see most people dual wielding or with 2 -handers and it's the people with shields who get called gimps. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to start a new character to learn the ropes again and see what's changed. That might help you get this character back into adventuring shape.

[JarvisW]

Ok, I'm still looking at it all..

Right now I have 30 AC w/o shield and 37 with. And the only armor that I see that boosts that without armor chk is Vol Breastplate or +5 Mith Bp. Both cut off my Dex bonus.

How am I gong to double that score?

[JarvisW]

Ok, here goes at my future re-roll

I was able to go full Arcane Archer, and get in quite a lot of feats, tho I'm sure someone will suggest Toughness.. I will try to add that on my 2nd go thru, I just wanted to be sure there were enough done to get all the AAs.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Char Renew
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(1 Fighter \ 13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 236
Spell Points: 165
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 7

Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 14 14
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 18 18
Intelligence 18 18
Wisdom 12 12
Charisma 8 8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1

Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 28 29
Bluff 21 22
Concentration 4 5
Diplomacy -1 0
Disable Device 26 31
Haggle -1 0
Heal 1 2
Hide 29 30
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 24 25
Listen 1 4
Move Silently 27 28
Open Lock 24 27
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 5
Search 26 31
Spot 24 28
Swim 2 3
Tumble 22 24
Use Magic Device 21 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I


Level 4 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical


Level 15 (Rogue)


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Perception I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device IV
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I




Whatcha think? :cool:


EDIT: I added Toughness feat once, then 2 elf and one fighter enhancements to get a total close to 300hp and thats without adding false life or +6 con items.

[Artos_Fabril]

Drop dodge, you're not going to be hitting any AC numbers at which one point either way will be significant. Drop power critical (worthless) and mobility too, while you're at it, you didn't even take shot on the run to justify those as pre-reqs for a kiting feat. The reason you see dodge and mobility on most 13/6/1 rog rng xxx builds is because Spring attack is required for Tempest, which is 10% melee haste (alarcrity bonus, stacks with all other hastes)

Right now I have 30 AC w/o shield and 37 with. And the only armor that I see that boosts that without armor chk is Vol Breastplate or +5 Mith Bp. Both cut off my Dex bonus.

How am I gong to double that score?
Armored Bracers +8 armor bonus
Shield Wand +4 shield bonus
Icy Raiment +4 dodge bonus
Alchemical Dodge ritual +1 alchemical bonus
Greensteel protection item +5 deflection bonus
Greensteel weapon +4 insight bonus
Chattering Ring +3 dodge bonus (stacks with Icy's +4 because unlike dodge bonuses stack in DDO)
Combat Expertise +5 feat bonus
Monk wis bonus to AC
Barkskin +3 or +5 natural bonus

I'm sure there's other stuff out there too, and a better bracer slot, that's just off the top of my head


You did something weird with the builder, you shouldn't be showing 3 rogue feats with only 13 levels of rogue. Also, none of them is crippling strike, which is its own problem.

You don't need an 18 int for anything, and you can't use a +2 tome at level 1, drop int to 12, or even 10 and you can still max every skill you need, +2 tomes are restricted to level 7 and above now, so don't count that skill point until level 8. Not sure how you're getting you con to 18, unless you're putting level ups into it, but you could certainly use a little more strength, and I don't know why you would start with a 15 dex on a +dex race bow user...

Here's my take on your build, I think I kept the focus where you wanted it, so it's a sneaky archer with maxed trap skills and UMD. I included a +2 tome for all stats, the only one that affects the build progression is the int tome which you included. He's still a poor-to-mediocre melee combatant, and I didn't include any sneak attack enhancements because you're not likely to be standing close enough to use them.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

JarvisW
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(1 Fighter \ 13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 268
Spell Points: 165
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 23
Will: 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 14 16 16
Dexterity 18 25 30
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 12 14 14
Wisdom 10 12 12
Charisma 8 10 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 8 33 34
Bluff 1 12 13
Concentration 2 3 4
Diplomacy -1 0 1
Disable Device 5 25 27
Haggle -1 0 1
Heal 0 1 2
Hide 7 33 34
Intimidate -1 0 1
Jump 4 11 12
Listen 0 1 4
Move Silently 8 33 34
Open Lock 8 21 22
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 2 3
Search 5 25 28
Spot 4 24 27
Swim 2 3 4
Tumble 5 11 12
Use Magic Device 3 23 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Precise Shot


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Rogue)


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Attack II
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage I
Enhancement: Elven Ranged Damage II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Archer I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I



I don't think this is a particularly good build. I do. however, think this is at least very nearly the best 13/6/1 arcane archer that can do what you seemed to want.

[JarvisW]

Drop dodge, you're not going to be hitting any AC numbers at which one point either way will be significant. Drop power critical (worthless) and mobility too, while you're at it, you didn't even take shot on the run to justify those as pre-reqs for a kiting feat. The reason you see dodge and mobility on most 13/6/1 rog rng xxx builds is because Spring attack is required for Tempest, which is 10% melee haste (alarcrity bonus, stacks with all other hastes)

Armored Bracers +8 armor bonus
Shield Wand +4 shield bonus
Icy Raiment +4 dodge bonus
Alchemical Dodge ritual +1 alchemical bonus
Greensteel protection item +5 deflection bonus
Greensteel weapon +4 insight bonus
Chattering Ring +3 dodge bonus (stacks with Icy's +4 because unlike dodge bonuses stack in DDO)
Combat Expertise +5 feat bonus
Monk wis bonus to AC
Barkskin +3 or +5 natural bonus

I'm sure there's other stuff out there too, and a better bracer slot, that's just off the top of my head


You did something weird with the builder, you shouldn't be showing 3 rogue feats with only 13 levels of rogue. Also, none of them is crippling strike, which is its own problem.

You don't need an 18 int for anything, and you can't use a +2 tome at level 1, drop int to 12, or even 10 and you can still max every skill you need, +2 tomes are restricted to level 7 and above now, so don't count that skill point until level 8. Not sure how you're getting you con to 18, unless you're putting level ups into it, but you could certainly use a little more strength, and I don't know why you would start with a 15 dex on a +dex race bow user...

Great advice overall!

I have no idea how I got extra feats, if I did, but I will roll another one later just to be sure.

I did 16 base +2 tome which I already had for my Int stats, if I knew what all the skill maxes were, then I would feel better about lowering those. So I will check into that soon.

I may still keep dodge, but was wondering about Power crit, and Mobility, too. I used to tumble quite alot. (I also remember getting plastered before even being able to tumble so that was always questionable to me)

I do kite, but I never saw SOTR as much of an advantage, as the higher level dungeons always had a wiz or two that would paralyze me and I couldn't get past those without help. So the normal runs were always in my kiting attack skill. (hope that made sense lol)

If I find my perfect int score then I can easly put that into Str, but if you want me to max dex, why not place it there? (I was just told above I didn't need Dex so much)

As for counting tomes etc, I was just going by what Rons builder says, so thats above my paygrade ;)

Anyway, this all gives me a headache lol, so I will return to face this calculus problem tomorrow!

Thanks again guys!

[Artos_Fabril]

If I find my perfect int score then I can easly put that into Str, but if you want me to max dex, why not place it there? (I was just told above I didn't need Dex so much)

That was tied to the recommendation to switch to a melee focus, because it saves you the feat a dex build has to spend on weapon finesse. Since you're intent on using a bow, you're using dex for to-hit anyway, you might as well max it out. There's nothing in the description of power attack that says it doesn't work with bows, but i've never played a ranged character enough to find out for sure. If it does, take it at 18 so you can redirect extra to-hit numbers to damage.

[Anderei]

Also, you usually want to go with more Ranger levels at first to get TWF and ITWF more quickly. As you are now, you need to take Ranger 6 by level 17 to get GTWF or make your x level Fighter at level 19 and use your bonus feat for GTWF. So 4 of your next 5 levels have to be Ranger or you can do the Fighter level at 19 and 4 of your next 6 levels have to be Ranger.

There also other vialable ways, on my 13/6/1 build, I took monk as 2nd level and then alternated between ranger and rogue. Why? Until you get improved critical, you still can fight with handwraps, you deal out sneak attack damage with monk spead, a terrible DPS machine and +2 dex for tohit from stance so can turn on powerattack early, usually lead any kills ranks except on undead levels. Only in high levels with improved criticals you want to switch over to rapiers, to get a lot of crits.

[JarvisW]

Thanks guys, both are great advice!

I was reading an AA thread, and they also suggest keeping STR up for the bonus dmg, so I will keep that in mind when I roll tomorrow.

Anderei, I don't have the choice of monk right now, but by the time I can true reincarnate I should, so I will keep that build in mind for sure!

I will face this again once I have accrued some pillow exp.