Sorc dps in shroud

[lugoman]

For some reason, many rl's seem to think you should only have 2 casters in a shroud run. I have seen a group wanting 1 dps wait over 15 minutes to fill the spot rather than take my level 20 sorc and start ( and the rl that turned me down was a sorc). I can easily tank quit a few of the pt 2 bosses by myself and deal a lot of damage to harry if i dont have to manage my sp. Admittedly i'm not to useful in pt 1 dps wise, but i do carry portal beaters.

My question is has anyone run the numbers comparing a sorc's dps on harry compared to other classes?

[Sweyn]

1) You cannot dps Portals
2) We don't need you to solo a named, put a STR based evasion toon on it, we're good
3) I haven't done number crunching, but you will not put out as much damage as a High dps toon
4) There is really no need for any more than 1 caster, thats it.

Specific roles for caster include

- Clear trash in part 1
- Break crystal in part 2
- CK on harry
- Umm thats it really


I have done shroud just fine with no caster on numerous occasions. You can get your clerics to Kill trash in part 1... you can get a ranger or cleric with multishot for the Crystal (Ive even done it with no ranger, no cometfall, just 5 melee using thrown weapons LOL)... debuffs on harry aren't that important with good healers and good dps... So yeah, there really is no real important reason to take a caster.

More casters = less DPS = More overall time... that extra 5 min might not mean much to you, but for people who run shroud 100's of times, we want it done as fast as possible

[Draclaud]

1) You cannot dps Portals
2) We don't need you to solo a named, put a STR based evasion toon on it, we're good
3) I haven't done number crunching, but you will not put out as much damage as a High dps toon
4) There is really no need for any more than 1 caster, thats it.

Specific roles for caster include

- Clear trash in part 1
- Break crystal in part 2
- CK on harry
- Umm thats it really


I have done shroud just fine with no caster on numerous occasions. You can get your clerics to Kill trash in part 1... you can get a ranger or cleric with multishot for the Crystal (Ive even done it with no ranger, no cometfall, just 5 melee using thrown weapons LOL)... debuffs on harry aren't that important with good healers and good dps... So yeah, there really is no real important reason to take a caster.

More casters = less DPS = More overall time... that extra 5 min might not mean much to you, but for people who run shroud 100's of times, we want it done as fast as possible

/sarcasm on Because when the level cap was 16 and we were doing it with 2-3 casters we failed every time so now at level 20 we can only spare a spot for one...:rolleyes: ./sarcasm off If you take that much longer with 2 casters vs 1...look in the mirror. That quest is NOT uber enough to be a class snob.

[lugoman]

I have done shroud just fine with no caster on numerous occasions. You can get your clerics to Kill trash in part 1... you can get a ranger or cleric with multishot for the Crystal (Ive even done it with no ranger, no cometfall, just 5 melee using thrown weapons LOL)... debuffs on harry aren't that important with good healers and good dps... So yeah, there really is no real important reason to take a caster.

More casters = less DPS = More overall time... that extra 5 min might not mean much to you, but for people who run shroud 100's of times, we want it done as fast as possible

Yes I know you dont need a caster, you dont really need anything as shrouds have been done with all 1 class. Also I was referring to a pug group where class alone doesnt guarantee you are getting dps. My point was it is dumb to wait an hour for a specific 'ideal' raid makeup.

[Sweyn]

/sarcasm on Because when the level cap was 16 and we were doing it with 2-3 casters we failed every time so now at level 20 we can only spare a spot for one...:rolleyes: ./sarcasm off If you take that much longer with 2 casters vs 1...look in the mirror. That quest is NOT uber enough to be a class snob.

When we were doing it at lvl 16 our runs were not < 30 minutes each on a normal run (not a speed run) And it doesn't take that much longer with 1-2 more casters, to me the extra one is just dead weight, it is personal prefrence


Yes I know you dont need a caster, you dont really need anything as shrouds have been done with all 1 class. Also I was referring to a pug group where class alone doesnt guarantee you are getting dps. My point was it is dumb to wait an hour for a specific 'ideal' raid makeup.

I don't wait an hour, the lfm's i see up for so long are the ones where people know the leader is a fail, or the group make up is horrible. I lead 95% of the shrouds i run, i usually get a caster early, and i turn their symbol off in the lfm panel. IDK what server you are on, but on khyber there is an abundance of melee, so im not waiting long at all.

[Aspenor]

3) I haven't done number crunching, but you will not put out as much damage as a High dps toon

A pure DPS sorc with all his gear will put out at least as much, or more, damage than a high DPS melee. Somewhere around 650 damage per second, to be exact.

[Crazyfruit]

What Aspenor said. I'd much rather take a second (or fifth!) caster over a random melee I don't know.

[Quikster]

Actually when we were running it at 16 our runs were <30 min, some of them with 4 casters.

Also the run is actually longer if....we wait 15 min for dps like the OP said.


Usually If we have one healer, we take whatever when filling out our raids. Full pugs i understand the reluctance as you arent sure what you have in the existing melee.

Usually newer raid leaders have more of a problem then vets as a lot of the long timers have other long timers joining their lfms, so chances are they have 1 or 2 melee the know they can depend on.

[Krag]

A pure DPS sorc with all his gear will put out at least as much, or more, damage than a high DPS melee. Somewhere around 650 damage per second, to be exact.

How much damage can a pure sorc put out before he runs out of mana?
Is it more than a melee can deal during 1 round?

[Aurora1979]

1) You cannot dps Portals
2) We don't need you to solo a named, put a STR based evasion toon on it, we're good
3) I haven't done number crunching, but you will not put out as much damage as a High dps toon
4) There is really no need for any more than 1 caster, thats it.

Specific roles for caster include

- Clear trash in part 1
- Break crystal in part 2
- CK on harry
- Umm thats it really


I have done shroud just fine with no caster on numerous occasions. You can get your clerics to Kill trash in part 1... you can get a ranger or cleric with multishot for the Crystal (Ive even done it with no ranger, no cometfall, just 5 melee using thrown weapons LOL)... debuffs on harry aren't that important with good healers and good dps... So yeah, there really is no real important reason to take a caster.

More casters = less DPS = More overall time... that extra 5 min might not mean much to you, but for people who run shroud 100's of times, we want it done as fast as possible

I have a couple of points to make about this:

1. A capped sorc, or high level, decently built will easily be able to cast wail on every mob in part 1. Bet thats a quicker way to clear trash then any melee.

2. A max/ empowered polar ray deals 1750 per shot to the fire ele in part 2. Again, i know for a fact a good sorc here will kill it/ take it down to 5% quicker then any melee.

3. In part 4 as well as crowd control, a good sorc can kill the gnolls quicker then any melee.

4. In parts 4& 5 a good sorc would be spamming polar ray and maybe frost lance. I cant be bothered to do the maths here but it costs 70 sp to cast a max empowered polar ray i think. With 3000 odd spell points thats a whole lot of damage contributed. If you dont have enough dps from the rest of the group to match that and kill harry then its not just the sorc fault.

IMO 2,3,4 casters is fine. each play a roll. An extra caster to buff means one caster can spam his offensive while the other keeps the fighters buffed and hasted. Same as an extra cleric or whatever. We know the shroud can be short manned and can be done with 1 class types so I would just take the extra person, get the group filled and run the quest.

Another way to look at it. if you do run it sooner because you dont wait for an extra dps, and then subsequently wiped.... you could always run again. :) its better then just standing there attacking the caravan. (well, its not coz the caravan deserves a good shoeing.... but still, making my point an all.)

[Anneliese]

How much damage can a pure sorc put out before he runs out of mana?
Is it more than a melee can deal during 1 round?

The SP should be enough for the first round.

A problem arises if the remaining group is not optimized and you need multiple rounds - then another DPS will be better unless the sorc has a lot of SP items to refill him.

[DragonDrago77]

It depends on what the leader wants. Usually, the expected number of casters is 2.
I have seen one shroud run with 3, actually. Nothing above 4, though.
It's a very DPS Style orientated raid.

Part1- Kill Portals with DPS.
Part2- Kill Lieutenants with DPS.
Part3-Kill Puzzles with Brain.
:P

As to who DPS's more(wow, that's bad english)- a caster or a melee- I have no clue.

[Sweyn]

I have a couple of points to make about this:

1. A capped sorc, or high level, decently built will easily be able to cast wail on every mob in part 1. Bet thats a quicker way to clear trash then any melee.
Cool deal, not that the trash is hard to kill by melee or the cleric or anything...

2. A max/ empowered polar ray deals 1750 per shot to the fire ele in part 2. Again, i know for a fact a good sorc here will kill it/ take it down to 5% quicker then any melee.
Yeah, my sorc hits for 3,200 with polar ray, and can kill him in 4 hits. But with the fire ele, it really doesn't matter how fast you can take it down, because you are usually waiting for the other ones to die, since it is last. In the time that your sorc takes it down to 5% the rest of the time you are just kiting it around waiting... so really it doesn't matter

3. In part 4 as well as crowd control, a good sorc can kill the gnolls quicker then any melee.
With no sorcs in your group, and a bunch of dps melee.. there won't be a round 2
4. In parts 4& 5 a good sorc would be spamming polar ray and maybe frost lance. I cant be bothered to do the maths here but it costs 70 sp to cast a max empowered polar ray i think. With 3000 odd spell points thats a whole lot of damage contributed. If you dont have enough dps from the rest of the group to match that and kill harry then its not just the sorc fault.

IMO 2,3,4 casters is fine. each play a roll. An extra caster to buff means one caster can spam his offensive while the other keeps the fighters buffed and hasted. Same as an extra cleric or whatever. We know the shroud can be short manned and can be done with 1 class types so I would just take the extra person, get the group filled and run the quest.
bards can keep melees buffed and hasted

Another way to look at it. if you do run it sooner because you dont wait for an extra dps, and then subsequently wiped.... you could always run again. :) its better then just standing there attacking the caravan. (well, its not coz the caravan deserves a good shoeing.... but still, making my point an all.)
There is an abundance of melee, i never find myself waiting long


Responses

[Crazyfruit]

With no sorcs in your group, and a bunch of dps melee.. there won't be a round 2

Except when they cause so much dps lag that half of them die...

With some crit-nuke spec sorcs there shouldn't be a round 2 either :)

[Swedishchef]

I usually don´t have problems getting Mechanizer in to Shroud runs.
But some times i think the RL´s forgett that they were pleading and begging for a caster or pref 2-4 casters in Lsdl so they can flagg without problem and first and for most quickly, especially when the cap was 16 :rolleyes: :)

[Monkey_Archer]

A pure DPS sorc with all his gear will put out at least as much, or more, damage than a high DPS melee. Somewhere around 650 damage per second, to be exact.

This.

No melee can put out 650 dps on harry... doesnt happen.
Even a wizard can keep up with most melees (closer to 400 dps)

So lets see... casters can out dps melees on part 4/5 (although wizards without good sp gear may not have enough for part 5)... casters can solve puzzles... casters can solo/nuke/dps anything in part 2 just as fast or faster then any melee...

That leaves part 1. Thanks to some multi-caster runs ive been a part of it seems good casters can actually keep up in here too. 1 sorc spamming force missiles/ chain missles can take out 1 portal in ~1 minute and still have sp remaining... So, 12 casters vs 15 portals each can take out 1 portal in 1 minute... sounds like a fast part 1 to me ;)

[zukt]

The fastest random pug I was in was some leader that insisted on getting 6 casters and dumping polar rays on harry. I thought we'd wipe but thought it would be amusing.

Boy was I wrong. The melees were just there to box him in and beat on portals. One fast round in part four and the same in part five.

The problem is there are a lot of random melees and some of them dont even have devil beaters, but casters dumping polar rays barely have to think about gear. Oh they get bonus points if they get that clickie.

[Anderei]

how about a wizard/sorc only shroud?

we had rogues, monks, fvs... a screenshot of a 12 wizard shroud might proof something into the face.

[Sweyn]

how about a wizard/sorc only shroud?

we had rogues, monks, fvs... a screenshot of a 12 wizard shroud might proof something into the face.

They have already done an all Sorc shroud

[Vanshilar]

Actually I'd be curious to see...just what is the DPS of a sorc vs Arraetrikos? I mean the numbers worked out.

Consider that you have about 80 seconds from when Arraetrikos appears to when he disappears (this includes the blades coming into the center), does the sorc have enough SP to last that long (or until the guy dies), and have DPS comparable to a melee?

[Sweyn]

Actually I'd be curious to see...just what is the DPS of a sorc vs Arraetrikos? I mean the numbers worked out.

Consider that you have about 80 seconds from when Arraetrikos appears to when he disappears (this includes the blades coming into the center), does the sorc have enough SP to last that long (or until the guy dies), and have DPS comparable to a melee?

If the sorc has Noxious embers for free maximise, the LOTD for -50% sp, and the belt from amrath that gives 75% to cold spells, then ya, the sorc WILL have enough sp to last, and he will dish out some pretty good damage spamming CoC and Polar Ray. But the fact of the matter is most sorcs don't have that. They don't have potency on their polar ray, and it is only hitting for around 300 a hit. Many don't know how to nuke.

In my shrouds, i will let in 2 casters, maybe even 3.. but that's if i know them.

[Aspenor]

How much damage can a pure sorc put out before he runs out of mana?
Is it more than a melee can deal during 1 round?

Yes, because a well-geared sorc even in mana dump mode will last longer than 1 round.

[gfunk]

how about a wizard/sorc only shroud?

we had rogues, monks, fvs... a screenshot of a 12 wizard shroud might proof something into the face.


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2054596#post2054596

.. from back when the cap was 16...

that said, alot of casters don't carry portal beaters..

[Aurora1979]

Responses

Im not disputing that other classes can do these rolls. I was responding to the fact that sorcerers can kill things just as quick as melee and can also deal out just as much dps. The only real discussion is can their sp last long enough. That depends on the caster and their equipment.

I know that with 3000 sp you can nuke in part 4, as well as some discos, fog and buffs etc, for 1 round quite comfotably. You will then have enough left over for the gnolls if nessecery and after that, your pretty much out. My sorc never had much to contribute if it went far into round two. But then, ive only ever ran it with 2 arcanes :) with.... maybe it wouldnt go into round 2. :D (we really need someone to do the calcs for dps)

I stand by my original point, which is actually the same as yours if you look again. Yes, you can take more then 1 or 2 sorcerers, yes you will still get the job done (in as much likelyhood as if it were any other pug shroud) and its better to just take whatever come along and do the run. Bard, cleric, melee whatever, As you say, they can all kill things just as well.

[Vanshilar]

Going over one of my shroud videos, my barb put out about 18k total damage before Arraetrikos died. At that point my barb was a level 18, non-min/maxed, non-twitch, no GS items, etc., basically a piker. I calculate his DPS to have been around 185 damage per second.

So consider that as well, i.e. how much total damage you'd have to do. I'm not familiar enough with sorcs to understand much about how often spells can be cast, which ones work well, size of SP pool, etc. when you just get to level 20. But consider that if you can do say 200 DPS with your spells and can sustain it for 18k total damage, then at least it'd be better to take you than a level 18 barb that's non-raided out. Obviously if you want to start including GS items, etc., or use a level 20 SP pool/spells, then you'd have to compare it against a more well-equipped melee.

[Shade]

Back at lvl16, a caster nuking arraetrikos was a pretty useless thing to do. Their DPS paled in comparison to melee and they could not sustain any real dps.

Now a fully maxxedo ut epic sorcerer at lvl20 on today?

Things are slightly different.

A maxxed sorc with fully cold enhacne and partial lightning (just dmg) can just about match a decent Barbarian (not a maxed out one, but a decent one)

To do that you need to be casting polar ray, cold of cold and ball lightning all in a chain, all at max DC, and having arraetrikos fail at least most of his saves. Pretty much only works on normal.

In phase 4, that means somewhere around 1000-1500 mana per round. A maxxed epic sorc can only maintain that damage for 2 roudns, if he doesnt buff or help with the gnolls at all.

In a group that can handle arraetrikos in 2 rounds.. It also doesnt matter. Your better off debuffing and handling gnolls, so resouce costs and deaths are keath to a minimum.

Sorcs have a role in the shroud. But it's not DPS. It never will be. They can contribute some, but realisticly, they aren't as good as a melee.

So yea, an epic sorc can utterly crush the DPS an average melee puts out. But does it matter? Does it mean the pug leader should take you?

Those are questions that only he can answer. And only you can complain about. Or do something else about it. Like get your own group.

[Krag]

How much damage can a pure sorc put out before he runs out of mana?
Is it more than 1/10 Harrys health?

Fixed
Most common Shroud group consists of 2 clerics and 10 others working on Harry. Therefore 1/10 is a good number to judge whether toon is contributing enough or not.


I guess a sorc with respectful gear will have no trouble putting out that much damage. But what can we expect of a pugger?

[ddoer]

In my last few Shroud run with my 2 casters, I record and sum up the total damage I deal to Arraetrikos in part 5. I use the number for personal reference to evaluate my performance as well as to attempt to compare caster DPS and melee DPS, and also to compare DPS between my two casters. Before I show any figure, there are several issues:

The figures collected in different runs are not exactly comparable even for the same caster. With different groups, the fight's duration could be vary. Sometimes I don't have chance to use up all my mana, and sometimes I ran out of mana. (for sure I won't drink mana pots) in a low melee dps group, the best way is to use polar ray only and the total damage will be very high; in a high dps group, if you don't cycle 2 or 3 spells, you will waste your mana.
With a total damage figure, you technically can calculate your exactly Damage Per Second if you also time the fight. I roughly know the fight duration (in part 5, it's usually 1-2 mins and my first charge of eardweller will run out) but I never try to calculate the exactly DPS. I personally have no interest in knowing the DPS number as the total damage is good enough for me to know how much I have contributed.
my casters usually does wave of exhaustion, and occasionally cast cloudkill and sometimes help out spot healing, as well as casting firewall for fun. Especially for wave of exhaustion, it may take a few try for my low spell-pen caster if I'm unlucky.
The main reason I don't care caster DPS in Shroud is that the highest DPS does not give you the best contribution. If in a group the melee DPS is low, and the fight will last long, you could max out your DPS by cycling 3 spells and not to use any spell reduction stuff like LOTD, but the total damage of your max dps mode will be much lower than using polar ray only.


In my last 6 run with my wiz 20 and sorc 18, the damage figures in part 5 vary from 11.5k to 20k. The average is 15.4k. Assume the fights lasts for 75s, (this is somehow the best time, so it is not exactly fair to use this number) the DPS is 200. If you pure sorc has eardweller, you could assume your figure is 20+% better than my number.

You can meaningfully compare your total damage against the melees. Say, if Arraetrikos has 350k hp, you have 2 pure healer types and the other 10 players are dealing damage, the average damage is 35k and I deal only 57% of the average. My conclusion is, in Shroud part 5, caster total damage can't match that of melees, but we should try to improve our total damage.



A pure DPS sorc with all his gear will put out at least as much, or more, damage than a high DPS melee. Somewhere around 650 damage per second, to be exact.

I usually measure caster DPS by using actually damage output from combat log and actual nuking duration. If you don't use spells like wiz past life MM, the combat log could include all your damage numbers in typical boss fights. If you care about mana efficiency, you may actually lower your DPS by using stuff like LOTD/Turn the page, and you will use your bauble/ss ring that will cost you time.

If I take the highest damage instance, i.e. 20k, and use the shortest part 5 time, [Edited: used 85s before] i.e. 75s, the DPS is 266. Assume you do the same spells with a capstone sorc and the DPS will be around 280. It is still far from your ideal 650 DPS.



My question is has anyone run the numbers comparing a sorc's dps on harry compared to other classes?

sadly, I don't think you want to know the truth. :(

actual melee DPS is very hard to measure as they swing too fast and there are too many numbers. A good news is, I found an end-game scenario that a caster could meaningfully out-dps the best damage melee. It is in epic dq2.

The following a video for a max dps fighter 20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKKt_TwDXU

you could use the figures in the first few comment or just sum up the damage yourself. For the next time you run your caster, sum up your combat log.


How much damage can a pure sorc put out before he runs out of mana?
Is it more than a melee can deal during 1 round?

you may use 20k * 1.2 as a reference for part 5. To achieve the highest number, you'll need some weaker melees and let the run to last for longer, and you use polar ray only. You should be able to get a number much higher than 20k.



If the sorc has Noxious embers for free maximise, the LOTD for -50% sp, and the belt from amrath that gives 75% to cold spells, then ya, the sorc WILL have enough sp to last, and he will dish out some pretty good damage spamming CoC and Polar Ray. But the fact of the matter is most sorcs don't have that. They don't have potency on their polar ray, and it is only hitting for around 300 a hit. Many don't know how to nuke.


Eardweller. period.

[itsameabob]

Actually I'd be curious to see...just what is the DPS of a sorc vs Arraetrikos? I mean the numbers worked out.

Consider that you have about 80 seconds from when Arraetrikos appears to when he disappears (this includes the blades coming into the center), does the sorc have enough SP to last that long (or until the guy dies), and have DPS comparable to a melee?

Before I TRed my Sorcerer, I could unload on Harry in part 4 and dump all 3100 sp on him right before he vanished if I so desired, or if the melee DPS was lacking I could dump all but 100-200 and end up killing the gnolls before the melee's could blink. I have personally been in a shroud with 5 arcane casters, and the run went smoothly.

That being said. I usually only take one caster along with my pug shroud runs. After I get my one, I turn off the arcane icons. If a competent arcane sends a tell asking, I don't mind letting them in. I have seen too many fail players to bother otherwise. I think it's really more about competance than any particular setup that you need. I've seen healers solo heal the shroud with ease, even with average dps in the group, and I've seen two healers have trouble with great dps in the group. It really does boil down the the guy {or gal} sitting at the keyboard.

{rant}Oh and side note, if you haven't done a quest admit it... don't lie to the raid leader. {/rant}

[eunucorn]

Ok folks. So here are the numbers I get on Eunucorn. He uses the Amrath belt & a greenblade, but does not have Litany, Embers, and hasn't seen an eardweller yet in 23 elite runs. Full fire/ice nuke spec.

In a group where I know the DPS is good, I will let go w/ Polar Ray and Force Missiles. If I think I may need to save mana for a round 2 or 3, it's just Polar Ray every 4 seconds.

PR - non crit =~ 500
PR - crit 15% =~ 1400
FM - non crti =~ 50
FM - crit 15% =~ 130

This is on a 4 second timer and note 4 Force Missiles are sent with every cast so ....

PR DPS = 158, FM DPS = 62

conservative DPS estimate = 220 for a moderately geared sorc.

[phalaeo]

1. A capped sorc, or high level, decently built will easily be able to cast wail on every mob in part 1. Bet thats a quicker way to clear trash then any melee.
Cool deal, not that the trash is hard to kill by melee or the cleric or anything...


I would disagree and say it depends on the Cleric.

You get a Monky Cleric like myself, and you're two levels off from Implosion. I know that I can't melee them down fast enough to prevent them from being a nuisance.

[sirgog]

The SP should be enough for the first round.

A problem arises if the remaining group is not optimized and you need multiple rounds - then another DPS will be better unless the sorc has a lot of SP items to refill him.

If the Sorc has done 15% of Harry's HP in damage in one round, then does nothing at all in rounds 2 and 3, they've pulled their weight - moreso than eight melees that each do 5% of Harry's hp per round (dropping him early in round 3).

It's part 5 where casters are less useful - there that same amount of damage is a smaller percentage of Harry's HP. Likewise they are less useful in Hard/Elite runs, where Harry has Evasion, reducing the options Sorcs have significantly as they can no longer (usefully) spam as many different spells, resulting in more lost time waiting for certain spells to come off cooldown.

[sirgog]

For an actual comparison of DPS, consider the following two characters:


1) An extremely well geared barbarian with the best weapon in the game for *normal* Shroud (Epic Sword of Shadows - even though this fight doesn't play to the weapon's strengths it still comes out #1). Hits on a 2, confirms crits on a 1.

Damage per hit: 109 (124 average, minus 15 for DR)
Damage per standard crit: 505
Damage per 19-20 crit: 765

Chance to 19-20 crit: 5% (accounts for fortification)
Chance to standard crit: 10%
Chance to standard hit: 80%

Damage per 20 swings (not counting glancing blows): 3519
Damage per 140 swings = damage per minute (not counting glancing blows): 24633
Damage per 80 second pass: 32844


Sorc 20, nuker specced with Eardweller, Telvi's Sash, not using the new epic wand (if it works on Polar Ray). Not conserving mana at all:

4-second rotation - casting Polar Ray, Cone of Cold, Oitluke's and Chain Lightning in that order. Max-Empped. Heightened (which would not normally be done).

Spell base damage: Polar Ray - 100, Cone of Cold 75, Oitluke's 75, Chain Lightning 75
After Eardweller and enhancements (cold/fire 40%, capstone, elec/acid 40%): 260/195/195/195
After saves (assuming save DC of 38 and Harry having a save of 27, which is an estimate): 260/146/146/146
After metamagics: 650/365/365/365

Next consider spell crits. Our caster has max fire/ice spec, and a superior cold lore item (21% chance to crit, 275% crit intensity) and just 1 AP spent in Lightning crits plus a major cold lore item (12% chance to crit, 200% intensity). This means that 'on average' cold spells hit for 36.75% more from crits, and lightning for 12% more.

After considering crits: 889/499/499/409.
After Harry's Resist Cold 30 is considered: 859/469/469/409
Total damage per 4 second rotation: 2206 (note: this assumes Eardweller can be maintained - in practice it cannot)
Total damage per 80 second pass: 44120



Interesting stuff. Note that the Sorc will run out of mana and slugs in their ear, so it's not a perfect comparison. Likewise glancing blows deal some damage too that I'm not aware of the formula for.

[Aspenor]

So in 4 seconds, that's (assuming Harry Saves 25% of the time, not unreasonable for a specced caster):
((20*2.5+20)*2*2.1*1.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2*2.1*1.75*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2*2.1*1.75*.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2*2.1*1.75*2.75*.75) + ((15*2.5+15)*2*2.1*1.75*.75 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2*2.1*1.75*2.75*.75) =
1778.723 average damage every 4 seconds or 444.6807 DPS

Of course that's without empower, and in this fight DPS matters more than SP, since you can easily keep blasting with both on for the whole fight, so:
((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75*.75) + ((15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*1.75*.75 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75*.75) =
2223.404 damage every 4 seconds, or 555.8509 DPS

If we assume he saves 50%:
((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*.5 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75*.5) + ((15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*1.75*.5 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*1.75*2.75*.5) =
1802.76 damage every 4 seconds, or 450.6899 DPS

Or since you can keep an eardweller up the whole fight, with 25% saves:
((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.75) + ((15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*.75 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.75) =
2541.033 damage every 4 seconds, or 635.2582 DPS

With 50% saves:
((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*.5 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.5) + ((15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*.5 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.5) =
515.0742 DPS


Quoted from another thread. From my observations on my caster, Harry saves about 25% of the time on normal.

[Crazyfruit]

not using the new epic wand (if it works on Polar Ray)

It does. Nice comparison :)

The glancing blows deal around 30% regular damage (but don't crit), so that should pretty much equal it out.

Of course, the real question is if you have fully geared out barbarians with sword of shadows in your normal shroud group, nukers with eardwellers etc why do people even care about DPS anymore? I'd expect to take anyone and still succeed in a round or two

[Vanshilar]

Likewise glancing blows deal some damage too that I'm not aware of the formula for.

The formula is (weapon damage + 30) * 0.3
weapon damage = the non-crit damage that your weapon puts out + enhancements + str modifier + power attack + ram's might etc. (basically everything non-seeker that's multiplied by crit), but does not include magical damage like holy etc. nor sneak attack damage

I'm not sure how much of the 124 damage is from magical effects or anything (i.e. force ritual, frenzy, etc.), but I'll assume that 6d6 = 21 of it is from death frenzy and frenzy, so the regular weapon damage is 103. Thus glancing blow damage would be (103 + 33) * 0.3 = 39.9, after DR would be 24.9. However, frenzy and death frenzy vicious effects apply 100% on glancing blows, so each glancing blow would do 24.9 + 21 = 45.9 damage. Assuming twitching, so glancing blows come out every other hit, so 70 glancing blows per minute, or an extra 3213 damage per minute. So your damage per minute would be 24633 + 3213 = 27846, so for an 80 second round, it would be 37128.

The thing about this damage is that it's persistent, i.e. does not run out, until the cleric runs out of SP. From my experience however the clerics use mass cures to keep everyone alive, and so it doesn't particularly matter if they're curing 3 meleers or 10, the SP usage will still be pretty close to the same (obviously more SP would be spent on buffing though). In my experience also the clerics don't run out of SP, even when part 4 goes into multiple rounds. So the question is, how much SP does a sorc use up per 4-second rotation, and can that be maintained for 80 seconds, assuming that Arraetrikos is one-rounded?

Let me add a wrinkle to the problem. For a barbarian, a lot of the damage is "built-in". That is, it's hard to get the build wrong, basically rage/frenzy/death frenzy means you get a lot of "guaranteed" DPS and then the rest depends on if the guy can twitch, has madstone boots, has boss beaters, etc. Those obviously contribute quite a bit, but it's not an all-or-nothing thing, you'll still get quite a bit of DPS even if the barbarian has none of those things (in my example above, with just 1 of those 3 (boss beater) my non-geared out level 18 barbarian did about 185 DPS). So when a raid leader takes a barbarian in, he's going to be more or less guaranteed that much DPS even if the barbarian doesn't really know what he's doing, and of course a lot more if the barbarian knows what he's doing, is decked out, etc. Now, is the raid leader going to be able to count on the same thing for a random pug sorc? I mean, how many random sorcs are specced for firewall vs how many are specced for polar ray etc.? That's what a raid leader has to consider when they take on a sorc, i.e. whether or not the sorc knows how to contribute to the different parts of the raid, part 4 and part 5 especially.

[ddoer]

Next consider spell crits. Our caster has max fire/ice spec, and a superior cold lore item (21% chance to crit, 275% crit intensity)

What exactly is the superior ice lore item? does it exist in the game at all?

[eunucorn]

What exactly is the superior ice lore item? does it exist in the game at all?

Major Ice Lore - usually found on scepters & the like

[Emili]

This.

No melee can put out 650 dps on harry... doesnt happen.
Even a wizard can keep up with most melees (closer to 400 dps)

So lets see... casters can out dps melees on part 4/5 (although wizards without good sp gear may not have enough for part 5)... casters can solve puzzles... casters can solo/nuke/dps anything in part 2 just as fast or faster then any melee...

That leaves part 1. Thanks to some multi-caster runs ive been a part of it seems good casters can actually keep up in here too. 1 sorc spamming force missiles/ chain missles can take out 1 portal in ~1 minute and still have sp remaining... So, 12 casters vs 15 portals each can take out 1 portal in 1 minute... sounds like a fast part 1 to me ;)
Last time I counted melee on a portal it was 13 seconds a portal... and at anything more that that I consider it too long.


A mostly arcane shroud (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2887036#post2887036) <- This was a group with but two DPS melee, a bard, two clerics, two sorc and five wizards... Shroud on hard - the run took 40 minutes. The portals actually went down just as quickly as they would in most complete PUGs and the casters were not unloading mana on the portals but meleeing them mostly...

The group was nothing but seasoned players and most were from the same guilds who were all familiar with what the other players could do and their styles. The forth round was slightly intense as both melee, bard and a few of the arcane died in round two with Harry about 10%... come part five while exciting the scope of DPS output was still quite below normal output - i.e. between chasing harry and twitching I was getting tired of the same ole thing... part five compared to the usual pin him in and flail away became a chasing around attack - and then watch him wonder off again.

The issue in DPS is what you label as consistantly high... Yes arcane have great bursting damage but upon a foe with so many hp avaerage melee tote 30000+ damage a minute consistantly when strapped in place an little movement... I've been in groups with but 3-4 decked out melee where harry was down in less than a minute.

When dealing with building a shroud group I am not so picky as to what classes are there but my viewpoint and trust in the players who are on the other side of the keyboard.

[moops]

Ive had a one rounder with 5 Sorcs--I will take any group make up, and except for the first couple days this raid was out, none of my groups have ever failed shroud.

Heck, and lets talk about DPS Lag--I love having 3 or 4 casters, still get one round with hardly any lag. . .

Many of these groups that wait 15+ mins for the perfect make up are still finishing in 40+ mins because they over buff in every part, give useless stuff that is not even needed, or buff over others, if you really are worried about time, learn what is actually needed in this raid.

Really, I understand new Raid Leaders not having a clue about this raid or being very weery--but I see Old Timers put silly things Like "Need Big DPS" in their LFMS which makes me question what the heck is wrong with their guild that they need others to bring the dps?. 1 good healer, a couple good melees, and a good caster can carry 8 people through this raid and still finish in less than 30 mins, tho I do prefer to finish in less than 20 I will take 30 misn over sitting around and waiting anyday. I always take the first people to hit the LFM for Shroud, I'm not going to wait 5 mins for anything.

We did this with VOD last night too, granted it was only on normal, but we went with one healer and 2 casters even tho we had a flesh tank, the leader just took whomever hit the LFM first--it filled within 5 mins and a half hour later we were ready to mov eon to the next thing.

[KingOfCheese]

What is this spell casting you are all speaking of?

Casters should pop on their madstone boots, rage up, buff up, grab a DR-busting two-hander and join in for the beat down! Caster dps via spell is nice but not needed--so might as well have some fun.

[Shade]

The following a video for a max dps fighter 20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNKKt_TwDXU


omg.

You seriously consider that terrible performance .. a max dps fighter? Really? omg..
Major issues with that guy:
He uses a really poor weapon choice - one which does not bypass the DR.
He doesn't attack continously
He has no idea how to twitch attack
He doesn't even have a rage buff
His bard doesn't even have the full songs on him until late into the fight. Probably isn't a warchanter either.
His strength is probably somewhere in the 30's, not anywhere near max
He uses a poor set of armor - redplate, DQ is immune to fire damage (well resistant enough to ignore all his bonus dice)
His HP is insane for a fighter. He probably used every single one of his feats on toughness, severely gimping his DPS.
Should I go on?

Here is how a real max DPS melee fights DQ2 epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEl1xYhuJ64&fmt=22

Also DQ2 epic vs Shroud arraetrikso on normal isn't exactly a fair comparison. I may do a shroud norm or elite video if people really want to see the insane dps a real melee can put out vs a boss with good DR.

Realisticly vs Arraetrikos normal, a maxxed out Barbarian can put out around 500-700DPS. A maxxed out KOTC with silver eSoS can probably spike over 1000 on constant smites for the first round, and average very similar to the Barbarian. A fighter with hasteboost going can probably spike out 540-800DPS for the first 20 seconds, then settle in at around 300-500.

And yea I got the new wand on my sorc, ill post some screenshots of my crits so you math dudes can figure out if its working or not.

[ddoer]

omg.
...

Here is how a real max DPS melee fights DQ2 epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEl1xYhuJ64&fmt=22

Also DQ2 epic vs Shroud arraetrikso on normal isn't exactly a fair comparison.


I only mean he is a max dps *fighter*, but by no mean to imply he is has the max melee dps. I bring out the video mainly for showing we can sum up the total damage of a melee for comparing with caster. if you want to comment on his fighter, you could go to: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239884

i did check your video and tried to sum up the total but the orange damage color is not easily to read and I gave up. Maybe you could just tell us what's the highest actual damage you deal to the DQ during i-am-war.

anyway, I have no objection that a melee could do much more damage in Shroud, and I'm saying my caster could out-dps your barb in DQ2 Epic during i-am-war!!! :D:D:D

[Temko]

A pure DPS sorc with all his gear will put out at least as much, or more, damage than a high DPS melee. Somewhere around 650 damage per second, to be exact.

phew.
i was afraid **** had changed.
when the level cap was 16 my raw DPS sorc was topping the charts on shroud runs on EU. i was doing 5-10% more damage then "the DPS" specs.



More casters = less DPS

get better casters. i mean it.
I play on kyber now after a long break, and i play as a melee DPS class - but by god if i rolled pure sorc for DPS i'd be outdamaging my melee by 20% at lvl8 and by 5-6% at lvl20.

seriously: next time you meet a DPS sorc that knows *** they are doing: take 'm instead of Barbarian Bezerker nr4.

[Varis]

sad that many raid leaders are so ignorant... it's also sad that many sorcs don't dps because others tell them they can't. Like sheep

In order to do great dps as a caster you need a few amrath runs for a belt clicky and like 5k plat to buy a major ice lore item (if for some epic reason you didn't pick one up as loot until now).

Habout a fighter? I'm sure they are all equipped like Axer. Epic sword of shadows for everyone!
Dream on, at best they have a mineral II weapon and if they drag it out to round 3 you can bet that the clerics will be running on pots and seething hatred.
It takes a LOT to equip a melee to do the kind of dps a sorc puts out.

A full sorcerer raid was done at level 16 tossing force missiles... but now at 20th, you need the perfect raid group? Are you kidding me?
I agree you only need 1 piker sorc that kills a crystal and throws down some webs while watching carebear re-runs but if you make it clear that all the other sorcs are dps or if you slap the piker around a bit to have him contribute you can have as many sorcs in the raid as you want.

[Spiffyspiffy]

Or since you can keep an eardweller up the whole fight, with 25% saves:
((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75) + ((20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*.75 + .18*(20*2.5+20)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.75) + ((15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*.75 + .18*(15*2.5+15)*2.5*2.1*2*2.75*.75) =
2541.033 damage every 4 seconds, or 635.2582 DPS

This is some serious assumptions. It seems illogical, and nearly useless, to assume the above maximum - and it is definitely maximum - capability on a random sorc that clicks on a LFM. A wizard couldn't keep up of course. I think we can assume a sorc would have a near 25% resist rate, along with Polar Ray. Chain lightning -and- Ball Lightning (in particular) is becoming a questionable assumption, and the eardweller is downright asinine to assume.

Seriously, a one-per-person drop from a quest that people have run over 50 times without seeing?

That's the problem with such arguments, which occur for every class in every mmog. The "best" requires a lot, be it enhancements, equipment, spell choice, etc. And in this case you still fail to reach the claimed 650dps.

Really, people should be arguing the median. A median melee dps will out dps a median arcane in Shroud. Period. People you know are exceptionally well speced and equipped, as required for the above numbers, can be taken on their own grounds. Just like people you know suck goats can be taken on their own as well.

Having said all that, unless you're short manning Shroud on elite - take the first 12 capped toons to click the LFM and go. It isn't hard, even on hard.


It takes a LOT to equip a melee to do the kind of dps a sorc puts out.Contraindication: Paladins.

[Deathseeker]

Is anyone seriously having enough trouble with the Shroud at this point that 1 vs 2 casters in the party even matters? Seriously? If it takes more than 3 or 4 minutes to wait for the "perfect" party, you probably wasted more time than it would have taken in additional length to run sub-optimal.

Only thing I can think of that makes shroud challenging is lag, and I dunno...more casters might even reduce the effect of DPS lag at this point!

[Shade]

I only mean he is a max dps *fighter*, but by no mean to imply he is has the max melee dps. I bring out the video mainly for showing we can sum up the total damage of a melee for comparing with caster. if you want to comment on his fighter, you could go to: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239884

Well he isn't for the reasons I already explained. He would at the bare minimum need to use a mineral2 greataxe and not the crappy eSoS on her. The complete loss of glacning blow damage is not worth the extra crits.


i did check your video and tried to sum up the total but the orange damage color is not easily to read and I gave up. Maybe you could just tell us what's the highest actual damage you deal to the DQ during i-am-war.
Set the video to fullscreen. Both the red numbers above her head and the combat log is 100% fully readable and clear. You can pause/play the video constantly and add up the combat log if you really wanted to. Could even go as far as to download it, and use a more advanced player to play it frame by frame.


anyway, I have no objection that a melee could do much more damage in Shroud, and I'm saying my caster could out-dps your barb in DQ2 Epic during i-am-war!!! :D:D:D
Well what your saying is plain wrong. Thats a horrible situation for a caster for many reasons:
A) She imedinately casts protection from elements, so the first spell is partially negated, she recasts this again later, but slowly, only every 30-60 seconds.
B) Insane saves, you'd almost never land a spell that isn't resisted
C) She has rather high resistances to all the common sorc damage types.
D) So pretty much all you got that works well is polar ray, that cant even come close to barbarian dps.

During her last bit, I added it up quick based on my average damage per swing being around 145 (100 base +7 holy +7 frenzy +14 deathfrenzy +18 glancing blow (36 at 50% swings)
Add in criticals dealing well over 600 damage..
And I'd say I did between 12,000 to 15,000 damage there during that bit. Over triple what the terrible fighter did, tho ofcourse it's different groups so she died at different rates.

[Sweyn]

Realisticly vs Arraetrikos normal, a maxxed out Barbarian can put out around 500-700DPS. A maxxed out KOTC with silver eSoS can probably spike over 1000 on constant smites for the first round, and average very similar to the Barbarian. A fighter with hasteboost going can probably spike out 540-800DPS for the first 20 seconds, then settle in at around 300-500.


You forgot to add Sowan's dps, which is over 10,000 and trumphs all of you :D

[Aspenor]

This is some serious assumptions. It seems illogical, and nearly useless, to assume the above maximum - and it is definitely maximum - capability on a random sorc that clicks on a LFM. A wizard couldn't keep up of course. I think we can assume a sorc would have a near 25% resist rate, along with Polar Ray. Chain lightning -and- Ball Lightning (in particular) is becoming a questionable assumption, and the eardweller is downright asinine to assume.

Seriously, a one-per-person drop from a quest that people have run over 50 times without seeing?

That's the problem with such arguments, which occur for every class in every mmog. The "best" requires a lot, be it enhancements, equipment, spell choice, etc. And in this case you still fail to reach the claimed 650dps.

Really, people should be arguing the median. A median melee dps will out dps a median arcane in Shroud. Period. People you know are exceptionally well speced and equipped, as required for the above numbers, can be taken on their own grounds. Just like people you know suck goats can be taken on their own as well.

Having said all that, unless you're short manning Shroud on elite - take the first 12 capped toons to click the LFM and go. It isn't hard, even on hard.

Contraindication: Paladins.

The only reason I said "~650" was:
1. When I made that post I didn't have the time to search for my previous calcs.
2. The calcs are based on averages, technically I guess I should have said 600-650, but who cares?

Also (technically) I neglected to include an Epic Cloak of the Zephyr, so the damage could go higher. To be exact, the Epic Cloak of the Zephyr would make your DPS 655.1549. Voila! 650+ DPS.

Is the average PUG going to have that gear? No. Is it possible? Yes. My post was in direct response to a sweeping generalization, so it's fair to assume maximum gear (since generalizations include everybody).

Also the OP asked if anybody ever ran the numbers...well yes, I have and I showed them.

Will the average PUG be able to accomplish the above? No, they won't, I agree with you on that.

It's also fair to say that, on hard and elite, the numbers obviously dramatically drop due to evasion. The smart player will know this, and should know how much nuke is "too much" on these difficulty settings. On hard and elite, it's important to gauge your SP usage and know only to cast Polar Ray. Of course, I'd rather the sorcerer in the party finish the battle with 200 SP than 1000, so just standing there not contributing at all to the damage output should not really be an option.

[maddmatt70]

I only mean he is a max dps *fighter*, but by no mean to imply he is has the max melee dps. I bring out the video mainly for showing we can sum up the total damage of a melee for comparing with caster. if you want to comment on his fighter, you could go to: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=239884

i did check your video and tried to sum up the total but the orange damage color is not easily to read and I gave up. Maybe you could just tell us what's the highest actual damage you deal to the DQ during i-am-war.

anyway, I have no objection that a melee could do much more damage in Shroud, and I'm saying my caster could out-dps your barb in DQ2 Epic during i-am-war!!! :D:D:D

I just look at the skill level of the player lets not even go into his gear, build etc. For starters very tenative in approach, the angles are sloppy when approaching the queen the player loses alot of dps that way, fights from the front far too much and takes too much damage - it really is not necessary to fight in the front at all and the healers prefer that you do not fight there believe me. The best players in this group by far are the healers overall for healing this crud.

Edit: did somebody change the link it was a link to a fighter in DQ2 epic and now it links somewhere else oh well.

[TheJusticar]

1) You cannot dps Portals
2) We don't need you to solo a named, put a STR based evasion toon on it, we're good
3) I haven't done number crunching, but you will not put out as much damage as a High dps toon
4) There is really no need for any more than 1 caster, thats it.

Specific roles for caster include

- Clear trash in part 1
- Break crystal in part 2
- CK on harry
- Umm thats it really


I have done shroud just fine with no caster on numerous occasions. You can get your clerics to Kill trash in part 1... you can get a ranger or cleric with multishot for the Crystal (Ive even done it with no ranger, no cometfall, just 5 melee using thrown weapons LOL)... debuffs on harry aren't that important with good healers and good dps... So yeah, there really is no real important reason to take a caster.

More casters = less DPS = More overall time... that extra 5 min might not mean much to you, but for people who run shroud 100's of times, we want it done as fast as possible


Why after two years we have so many people with this wrong-headed and erroneous sentiment towards casters? Every single point of their arguments has been DEBUNKED! Who ran the first 12-one-class Shroud on ELITE? Was it Barbs? Nope. Was it Fighters? Nope. Was it Tempest splashes? Nope. It was 12 sorcs. And that was @ max lvl 16.

Two-man Shrouds? Two-man VoD? Aye one of them was a caster.

Your two healers are down, who can UMD 100% mass moderate/ heal scrolls your barb? Your fighter? Your DPS is zero if you are DEAD. Plain and simple.

Who can buff the whole party (other than songs) in 1/2 the time it takes a bard to do so?

I keep hearing people making these anti-caster nonsense statements based on nothing but DPS jealousy, I guess.

I've been in 5-rogue shroud (back when rogues weren't cool) and ToD pugs. I've been in 3-casters ToD elite groups. There's really no real reason not to bring ANY given class other than misconceptions and bias.

Enough already. Seriously. You don't want to bring casters to YOUR shroud run, sure it's YOUR run. But don't say it boasting as if your decision is based on empirical data.

[TheJusticar]

how about a wizard/sorc only shroud?

we had rogues, monks, fvs... a screenshot of a 12 wizard shroud might proof something into the face.

It was done a year ago when max level was 16. 12-sorc shroud on ELITE. There's nothing left to prove other than the caster segregation is based on nothing but misconception and DPS jealousy.

[Sweyn]

Why after two years we have so many people with this wrong-headed and erroneous sentiment towards casters? Every single point of their arguments has been DEBUNKED! Who ran the first 12-one-class Shroud on ELITE? Was it Barbs? Nope. Was it Fighters? Nope. Was it Tempest splashes? Nope. It was 12 sorcs. And that was @ max lvl 16.

Two-man Shrouds? Two-man VoD? Aye one of them was a caster.

Your two healers are down, who can UMD 100% mass moderate/ heal scrolls your barb? Your fighter? Your DPS is zero if you are DEAD. Plain and simple.

Who can buff the whole party (other than songs) in 1/2 the time it takes a bard to do so?

I keep hearing people making these anti-caster nonsense statements based on nothing but DPS jealousy, I guess.

I've been in 5-rogue shroud (back when rogues weren't cool) and ToD pugs. I've been in 3-casters ToD elite groups. There's really no real reason not to bring ANY given class other than misconceptions and bias.

Enough already. Seriously. You don't want to bring casters to YOUR shroud run, sure it's YOUR run. But don't say it boasting as if your decision is based on empirical data.

You points supporting caster do not make any Sense

1) 12 sorcs ran shroud elite. Yeah, why no melee has done that is because there is no self healing, and they don't stand 50 feet back from the Fiend. Also, different classes in DDO are able to Solo, or be self sufficient, than others. Not all classes are meant to go into Shroud Elite. How long was the 12 sorc shroud? 25 min i heard no? Oh thats right, it was longer
2) And actually, you're point about 2 manning Shroud just backs up the reason for only having 1 caster. That 1 caster was able to do all the caster jobs (Buff, kill trash, debuff boss, ect..) AND heal the 1 melee. If 1 can do all that, there shouldn't be a NEED for more.
3) Your healers shouldn't die in shroud. If they do, well.. that's hilarious
4) I did not say it boasting as if me decision is based on empirical data, all i did was simply layed out all the Jobs of the caster, and showed that it can be done by 1 of them, if not 0 of them, other classes can do it.

The fact is, in a quest like shroud, more than 1 caster IS DEAD WEIGHT ... That is just how the quest is designed. Sure, having 2 or 3 caster will not hurt, and it might only slow your compleetion time by a couple of minutes, but again, 2 is unneeded, and i would rather have a melee, that's it.

If a friend/guildie wants to bring his caster, and i already have 1, then 100% of the time i will let him in. Just not the random pug i don't need.

Puggies < Completion Time < Friends

[Sweyn]

It was done a year ago when max level was 16. 12-sorc shroud on ELITE. There's nothing left to prove other than the caster segregation is based on nothing but misconception and DPS jealousy.

It's not the fact that it can be done, it's the fact that more are dead weight, and just add more to your completion time

[TheJusticar]

You points supporting caster do not make any Sense


4) I did not say it boasting as if me decision is based on empirical data



The fact is, in a quest like shroud, more than 1 caster IS DEAD WEIGHT

Enough and thanks for making my point.

[Zombiekenny]

A well set up caster is arguably an asset to a shroud run, if played by a good character, the problem is that once you have one, even if an ideal caster would still be good, a PUG fighter is usually a safer bet than a PUG caster.

[Varis]

A well set up caster is arguably an asset to a shroud run, if played by a good character, the problem is that once you have one, even if an ideal caster would still be good, a PUG fighter is usually a safer bet than a PUG caster.

You should probably explain WHY a pug fighter is a safe choice... because unless said fighter has a Mineral II weapon and is reasonably equipped, his contribution is mostly ambiance and decor.

I understand that due to do limited mana pool, 4 nukers and a cleric can't carry the raid on their own. 4 good melee dps and a cleric CAN even if it takes longer and consumes a lot of pots.
I can accept that even though that is setting the bar pretty low (pug low I guess)
On the other hand a quick myDDO will give you a decent idea if your raid applicant is a win or fail choice.