Build Feedback, Please

[katana_one]

Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some feedback/build advice for a progression I'm working on.

I like the idea of a sneaky scout type character. I also like being able to play trapmonkey. This lead me to the ranger/rogue combo. This build sacrifices casting ability in favor of skills, STR and DEX.

Open to suggestions, since this is a work in progress.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Raeshara Blackstar
Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Female
(1 Rogue \ 19 Ranger)
Hit Points: 260
Spell Points: 192
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 9
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device 6 26
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 6 30
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 6 9
Listen 3 22
Move Silently 6 30
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 6 28
Spot 3 25
Swim 2 5
Tumble 6 9
Use Magic Device 3 3

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Diehard
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Spot I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 4 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently II


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Dragon


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration


Level 17 (Ranger)


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Ranger)


Level 20 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
Enhancement: Ranger Hide II
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Search III
Enhancement: Ranger Spot II
Enhancement: Ranger Spot III
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III

[Sinni]

don't take diehard, the feat is a waste. and iirc rangers get it anyway on lvl 3
and i'd also reconsider your favored enemies. there are too few dragons in the game to make the fav enemy useful. and i'd also switch out abboreations. take undead, elementals or constructs instead.

and one more thing: you will hardly ever sneak while you are in a party.

[katana_one]

don't take diehard, the feat is a waste. and iirc rangers get it anyway on lvl 3
I don't recall it being free to level 3 - I'll have to check. I like it because I solo a lot, but I could dump it for something else.


and i'd also reconsider your favored enemies. there are too few dragons in the game to make the fav enemy useful. and i'd also switch out abboreations. take undead, elementals or constructs instead.
Noted and thanks. Actually, I just selected those favored enemies pretty much randomly - I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to take yet.


and one more thing: you will hardly ever sneak while you are in a party.
True enough, but like I said, I like to solo. That being said, where would you suggest spending those skill points?

Thanks for the input.

[Dandonk]

What Sinni said. And also: Weapon focus is not that useful in general - Power Attack is a must, though, on someone meleeing.
Consider moving Imp Crit up to level 9. Consider Taking Khopesh feat for even more melee damage.

For skills, I'd drop listen - it's not very useful when you already have spot. I'd go for UMD instead, very good skill. Dropping listen and the sneak skills could give you UMD and some points in balance, which is nice to have sometimes.

You could also consider taking a level of something else since ranger level 19 doesn't do that much for you. Fighter for another feat, barb for move speed and a mini rage, monk for the always fun exploiter clone build. This is not a must though - ranger 19 works fine, just something to think about.

[katana_one]

What Sinni said. And also: Weapon focus is not that useful in general - Power Attack is a must, though, on someone meleeing.
Consider moving Imp Crit up to level 9. Consider Taking Khopesh feat for even more melee damage.
I totally forgot to work Khopesh into the build. Thanks!


For skills, I'd drop listen - it's not very useful when you already have spot. I'd go for UMD instead, very good skill. Dropping listen and the sneak skills could give you UMD and some points in balance, which is nice to have sometimes.
UMD doesn't fit into my original character concept, but it won't really hurt it - I agree with you on balance, however.


You could also consider taking a level of something else since ranger level 19 doesn't do that much for you. Fighter for another feat, barb for move speed and a mini rage, monk for the always fun exploiter clone build. This is not a must though - ranger 19 works fine, just something to think about.
I'm considering fighter actually, since I don't have access to monk (or have any plans on buying it).

Thanks!

[Sinni]

about die hard. the reason because it's a bad feat is following:
if you fall between 0 and -9 hitpoints you will regenerate automatically, if you aren't hit again and die.
now if we compare it to toughness (even if it isn't your first one), at lvl 8 it will give you 10 additional hitpoints. so instead of being between 0 and -9 and regenerate slowly and hoping not being hit again, you'll be between 1 and 10 hitpoints.
maybe i'm off by 1 or 2, but let's say at least from lvl 10 on toughness is alway better, even if it isn't your first one. and a second toughness is already considered a bad choice...

if you solo a lot i'd move toughess up to lvl 1 instead of die hard so you can take the enhancments early on, where they make a huge difference. this would free up lvl 9 to take imp crit there.

if you want to go for kopesh, i don't know at which level i'd fit it in. but you have 2 free feat slots if you remove weapon focus and die hard.


and about the sneak skills: if you solo a lot then it's ok, or so i hear (never tried it myself). that's why i said "while you are in a party" :)
if you want to keep your sneak skills i'd drop listen and open lock (open lock almost never mandatory, the only place that springs to mind is von 5 and i don't think you'll solo that often) to get UMD

[katana_one]

Okay, here is a revised build taking the above advice into consideration. Thoughts?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Raeshara Blackstar
Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Female
(1 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 18 Ranger)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 178
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 18
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device 6 26
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 6 28
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 6 10
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 6 28
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 6 26
Spot 3 23
Swim 6 9
Tumble 6 9
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Ranger)


Level 17 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense


Level 19 (Ranger)


Level 20 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Spot I
Enhancement: Ranger Spot II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[unbongwah]

I would go with base STR 16 / DEX 14 and put all your level-ups into STR; should be able to hit STR 22 / DEX 18 by lvl 20. This isn't really a high-AC or archery-focused build and you don't need DEX 15 for any pre-reqs.

It seems a shame to play a rogue splash with good INT without maxing UMD. If you do, consider making your alignment True Neutral: makes you immune to a lot of alignment-based damage and lets you use Stability items; you ought to be able to get your UMD high enough to bypass equipment alignment requirements.

Taking both OTWF and TWD is a waste; most only take one or the other for the Tempest III pre-req, not because they actually help much. Combat Expertise would provide a bigger boost to AC, though I don't know if it's enough to be useful at lvl 18+ on this build.

[MithrilSoul]

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. You have your levels messed up for your favorite enemy feats. For example you are picking a favorite enemy at level 2, but according to your build level 2 is a fighter level, not a ranger level. So if you take rogue at 1, fighter at 2, you get your first favorite enemy at level 3 (ranger 1), then your next at level 7 (ranger 5), etc.

2. I understand the desire to take the khopesh feat early, but what you are doing by taking your fighter level so early in the build is delaying getting to ranger 6 for ITWF and access to the Tempest I enhancement (+2 AC and 10% attack speed). In general, most people who have done the Exploiter or some variant on it seem to feel that the perks from that boost is greater than the perk of having khopeshes (early), and so suggest taking that fighter level at some point after you have already hit ranger 6. YMMV and if this is a twink toon that you already have a set of uber khopeshes prepared for, then it probably makes more sense for you to take the fighter level when you do. But if this is not a twink toon, then I would consider delaying the fighter level.

3. Enhancements look pretty good in general. However if you are going to solo and sneak a lot, the rogue enhancement Sneak Attack Speed is a really nice one. I know it's "only" a 10% speed boost but believe me, after I trained it I fell in love with it and wouldn't consider making a sneak-based character without it in the future. Also, there are two ranger enhancements you don't have on your list that I found very useful as well. One is the Energy Resistance enhancement; at least early on (up through level 7, which is as far as I have my exploiter) I found it extremely useful, either in fights involving a lot of those kobold flame tossers, or against casters using Melf's Acid Arrow, or even in cases where I failed at disabling a trap and knew I needed to run through some sort of flame/acid/etc trap. For one AP, to be able to give myself 5 bursts of 20 seconds each of 8/- against ALL energy times simultaneously is really useful. (And I haven't played enough to know whether training it all the way to enhancement level IV might be useful at mid/endgame or not; I think it gives 20/- against all energy types when trained at Level IV). The other is the Ranger Sprint enhancement; 30% or 35% run speed boost for 20 seconds (again, 5x per day). Situationally very useful for a ranger even if you are a melee-based rather than bow-based one. Also great for getting around town quickly and not needing to "waste" a precious inventory/bag slot on an Expeditious Retreat item.

4. Considering all the toughness enhancements available to you if you want them (to boost your HP), I am wondering if it might not make more sense to go with 12 CON and 10 WIS rather than 14 CON and 8 WIS. I suggest that because with 10 WIS and then popping a wisdom pot (or using a wisdom wand), that gets you to 14 WIS which allows you to cast any ranger spell. Of course, the same would be true for an 8 WIS starting build IF you can presume on a +2 WIS tome. Not necessarily suggesting it just wanted to at least raise the issue.

[unbongwah]

You can't memorize a spell unless your base WIS (+ tomes + items) is high enough; temp WIS boosts like Owl's Wisdom don't count, IIRC. If katana_one doesn't mind needing to find WIS-boosting items before being able to cast spells, then I think WIS 8 / CON 14 is the right way to go; rangers tend to need all the HPs they can get.

[katana_one]

Hey, thanks again for all the input - I'm taking it all in and gonna let it gel for a bit before I get back to revising the build further.

Regarding the favored enemy feats at the wrong level - I didn't notice that when I was working with the builder. I had changed what level I was taking Fighter at, and I guess the builder didn't update the feats.

Not a twink character - it's my first character on the server I'm playing her on, so no uber khopeshes waiting for her. I just figured I'd get the fighter level and khopesh proficiency out of the way early. It really doesn't matter much to me when I take it - I just thought it would be better to have the proficiency in case I pulled some nice gear early. /shrug

I'm definitely open to suggestions on enhancements - I made sure I could qualify for Tempest III then christmas-treed a lot of the enhancements after that. Good suggestions there, tho.

And finally the spell-casting - I've never really been a big fan of caster rangers, so this isn't really a big issue for me. If I find the wis items I need to cast my own buffs, great, otherwise - meh.

Going with a starting STR 16/DEX 14 seems worth considering, and I will look into the Combat Expertise suggestion.

Thanks again.

[DrNuegebauer]

Change to a Dwarf and use dwarven axes.

DEFINITELY ditch hide and move silently and take UMD. And go true neutral.

starting stats

S 17
D 13
C 16
I 12
W 8
Ch 6

[assuming you're happy to get a Wis tome or get an item]

Level ups into strength.

skills: DD, OL, Se, Sp, Bal

[katana_one]

Okay, after thinking it over, this is where I'm at:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Raeshara Blackstar
Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Female
(1 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 18 Ranger)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 178
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 20
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 19
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device 6 26
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 6 28
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 6 10
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 6 28
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 6 26
Spot 3 23
Swim 6 9
Tumble 6 9
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Ranger)


Level 17 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense


Level 19 (Ranger)


Level 20 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Spot I
Enhancement: Ranger Spot II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I




I think this looks like it will be fun for me to play, so I'm going to go roll her up. Of course, if anyone has any other input, I'm happy to consider it - after all, the worse that can happen is I have to re-roll. :)

[Sinni]

i'd suggest the same as unbongwah:

drop dex by 1 and raise str by 1. you don't need to meet any feat requirements with your dex and your AC probably won't be high enough to really matter anyway. put all lvl ups in str.
this way you'll end up with
16 base + 5 level ups + 6 item + 1 human adaptility + 2 tome = 30 str
14 base + 6 item + 3 ranger enhancment + 1 human adaptility + 2 tome = 26 dex
i personally never calculate with +3 tomes, if you get lucky and find one you can even it out by dropping one of the enhancments or getting a +1 exceptional stat item.

for the AC reason i'd also drop 2 weapon defense. maybe you could consider taking quick draw instead. it allows you to attack sooner again after switching or activating boosts (the rogue haste boost or one of the human versitality boosts). another option is stunning blow, though it might be hard to land.