Wizard with Rogue Splash (Comments Please)

[Nihlia]

This is my very first attempt at building a character, so I did some studying and came up with this as an idea. My thought here is a character that is solo/solo with hireling capable but also able to take care of traps in non-epic groups if needed. Here are my main questions for you experienced builders/players out there:

1) How capable will this build be at finding/disabling traps? I know I didn't put spot in it, because when I solo my nose will be in a guide (and I really don't care how slow I go alone), and when I group, I'm assuming others will know where traps are.

2) Is a high level of UMD needed on a WF character that pretty much plans to heal themselves? Should I swap out something to get healers friend for the times when I do group?

3) Any thoughts on the wizardly skills? The necro piece actually comes from a past history of RP I did in EQ when I played a necro, and I have some fantastic stories that can come back with some creativity. I realize pale master isn't everything it can be now, but I think I'm willing to give it a shot and play with the solo stealthing a bit if it doesn't hurt my viability too much.

4) Any other comments? I'm very new to the game, so feedback is appreciated. This isn't intended to be a real powerful raiding/end game maximized character, but more one where I can have fun and disable (hopefully) the majority of traps that are not high end.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Xorana Deathtouch
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 1468
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 18 19
Intelligence 18 28
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 6 27
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 8 33
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 4
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 4 4
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 4 4
Open Lock 4 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 9
Search 8 33
Spot 3 6
Swim 0 0
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 2 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening I


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening II


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III

[Muldamai]

1) You will be able to disable most traps in the game, see rogue complaints on Epic traps even when maxed out as a level 20 rogue for comparison. You will be fine.
2) Arcane spells include repair spells that heal War Forged. Thus, a WF wizard is like a human cleric for self healing (but that is the only comparison I would make). You can go the UMD route, but it is not a requirement on a WF wizard/rogue.
3) Stay away from Pale Master at the moment. Just did my own testing, and it isn't worth a whole heck of a lot as it stands. The class you are taking is elite enough, and what you learn from playing should get you through to raiding and levelling.

4) Lets see: Skip the +1 int tome at level 3, just do the +2 tome at level 7, they wont stack, and +1 int wont do much for 4 levels.

Either go WF CON 2 or not at all, the +1 again doesn't do much for you. Read the wizard forum in depth before your final decision of what to do.

I find reading Ghoste's post about the Stealth wizard very useful, and the Wizard hand book very valuable. Go here and the multiclass threads and check other 2 rogue/18 wizard builds, there are a lot of 'em.

Good luck on your path here, you are using all the tools to make a successful toon.

There are other things to nitpick, but why spoil the whole thought process you are putting into this? Learn by doing, or not doing.

[Nihlia]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I don't consider it nitpicking at all, I'm just grateful someone took the time to read, think, and respond. I'm so new to the game I almost just dismissed multiclassing out of hand, but then I decided that a wizard with some rogue skills would be really fun for me. So, I took 5 builds from the forums, put them on a spreadsheet by level and compared, then changed them a bit for my own flavor. That being said, I still was leery, since I'm so new and missed the obvious ... like you want constitution to be an even number. So, thanks again. I revised her a bit based on your comments. I decided to keep the +1 tome at level 3, just for skills, even if they don't stack... maybe a waste, but I wanted all the skill points I could squeeze into her. I actually started her out, and she's level 2 now. I was hesitant to go to level 3 without feedback :)

Here's what she looks like now:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Xorana Deathtouch
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 266
Spell Points: 1468
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 18 28
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 6 28
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 8 33
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 4
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 4 4
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 4 4
Open Lock 4 22
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 9
Search 8 33
Spot 3 6
Swim 0 0
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 2 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening I


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Heightening II


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II

[Muldamai]

Ok, a few more things then :)

1) Wand Heighten doesn't tend to work out too well. Wands max out in level around 10 (there are a few 11 and 12 also), so the difference in level from about 15 up works against you. Best to keep wands with no saving throws and for buffing (ie: healing/repair, stoneskin, scorching ray, ice storm).

2) If there going to be something specific you are using spell focus necromancy for? If not, drop those and take different feats for now, especially if this is your 1st toon. If you want spell focus, I bet you will find spell focus enchant infinitely more useful.

3) The 1st 3 feats work fine, then some changes. Level 6 I would take Maximize spell, it is worth it. If you have to choose between Maximize or Empower, take Maximize.

4) Level 9, choose Heighten, that's about where I started to need it.

5) Shoot, lost my train of thought, had another Feat thing to add, leaving this here in case I remember.

6) When posting from DDO Character Creator, do all your Enhancements at level 20, that will put them together and make it easier to read to see what you are (and aren't) taking.

Good luck now! That should be suffcient. You will learn a lot when you play.

[oweieie]

Wizard isn't a class that splashes something else well. It's really not worth giving up capstone and weakening your spell power just to be able to do traps. This is doubly true since it's a class with knock and true seeing so you can find secret doors and open almost any door or chest already anyway.

[Impatiens]

While UMD may not be necessary to have for healing yourself it is still really nice to have. Since you have rogue levels and high int for a lot of skill points it may be possible to max UMD. If it is possible I would recommend doing so. Being able to use rez scrolls so the clerics can focus on healing the party members that are still alive can save a raid when things go bad.

[Phidius]

Wizard isn't a class that splashes something else well. It's really not worth giving up capstone and weakening your spell power just to be able to do traps. This is doubly true since it's a class with knock and true seeing so you can find secret doors and open almost any door or chest already anyway.

It's totally worth -1 to your Spell DCs to get evasion.

Op:

You should try to fit in Insightful Reflexes earlier, say at level 3. There are a lot of spells that you'd rather take 1/2 damage from.

I like to have Maximize by level 7 wizard, and take Empower later. If you only take one, though, take Maximize.

I'd recommend raising Spot instead of Open Lock. With the right equipment, you can get most locks with only 4 ranks - and like Oweieie said you can take the spell Knock as well. Spot is used to detect hidden enemies as well as detecting traps, and some traps are randomly placed.

[Phidius]

While UMD may not be necessary to have for healing yourself it is still really nice to have. Since you have rogue levels and high int for a lot of skill points it may be possible to max UMD. If it is possible I would recommend doing so. Being able to use rez scrolls so the clerics can focus on healing the party members that are still alive can save a raid when things go bad.

Even better - using Heal scrolls to keep people from dying in some raids can prevent a wipe.

[Impatiens]

Even better - using Heal scrolls to keep people from dying in some raids can prevent a wipe.

That too. Is that bug still active that was letting Wizards use Heal scrolls without a UMD check though? That's why I didn't mention them, but those are definitely helpful :)

[xoowak]

Necromancy spells do not get good until you get Finger of Death, which will be at 15 for this build. The Spell focus:necromancy feats are pretty much wasted up until then. You will probably feel the need for those spell penetration feats a little earlier.

I would go with something like:
1: Toughness
2W: MT
3: Extend
6W: Maximize
6: Insightful Reflexes
9: Quicken
12W: Heighten
12: Spell Pen
15: G. Spell Pen
17W: SF: Nec
18: GSF: Nec

Enhancement-wise, consider dropping wand-heightening/some of the skill enhancements/racial toughness 4 to pick up the last spell pen enhancement and some metamagic cost reduction enhancements

[moomooprincess]

But I go 1st rogue and 2nd rogue, then after that it is all wizard.

Always add to you Disable device when you level.
Always add to your search when you level.
Always add to your UMD when you level.
Add to Concentration if you can.
Add to your Open Lock whenever you feel like it
Add to your Jump when you feel like it.

That is all I would add anything to when I level.

You will really enjoy this character. You will ROCK in the Orchard.

As a warforged you can deal massive damage, crowd control, repair yourself, and pick lock and disable traps. You can do most of the game solo. In a party will be even better because you have it all covered and the other players are there to make it easier.

[Phidius]

That too. Is that bug still active that was letting Wizards use Heal scrolls without a UMD check though? That's why I didn't mention them, but those are definitely helpful :)

Yup, wizards can still use Heal scrolls after today's patch. I'm not counting on it staying for much longer, though, as it's a bug that helps players.


But I go 1st rogue and 2nd rogue, then after that it is all wizard.

As long as you know that you will be "wasting" skill points if you take the 2nd rogue so early.




Always add to you Disable device when you level.
Always add to your search when you level.
Always add to your UMD when you level.
Add to Concentration if you can.



Agreed.



Add to your Open Lock whenever you feel like it
Add to your Jump when you feel like it.


4 ranks in Open Lock is all you really need, but you don't even need 4 ranks in Jump. There's nothing else to spend skill points on at level 1, but I wouldn't spend another precious skill point in jump after that.

4 ranks + 30 Jump spell + 4 Greater Heroism + 2 strength (at the very least) = 40 (capped at 40)

[HallowedOne]

Take all Spell Penetration Enhancements/Feats u can, preferably get them all maxed out before lvl 15 - otherwise u'll hate when u get at Vale and see all mobs saving the checks.

You can consider also taking Enchantment instead of Necromancy - later on CC becomes a lot more important than insta-kill, especially because Trash mobs have high fortitude.

Take all intelligence enhancements, the more for extra DC's you can get, the better.

Ignore Wand Heightening, put max III on Wand Augmentation. Max III on Energy of Scholar

Take the all enhancements on Improved Heightening and Maximizing.

My 2 cents

[Nihlia]

I wanted to give a big, big thank you to everyone that read and responded! It is so helpful to get this feedback, and your thoughts will help me as I level. I'm quite sure that she will become a favorite toon for me, as I just love the thought of being able to handle traps, heal myself, and deal damage. I will definitely reorder her feats and take another look at skills/enhancements based on your comments.

Here is my revised build, based on your thoughts:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Xorana Deathtouch
Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 1468
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 10 10
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 18 28
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 6
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 6 30
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 8 32
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 4 4
Intimidate -2 -2
Jump 4 4
Listen 3 3
Move Silently 4 4
Open Lock 4 9
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 9
Search 8 32
Spot 3 17
Swim 0 0
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 2 21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III




Thank you, thank you, thank you all! :)

[Lucen791]

I notice that the advice given in this thread will lead to concentration to end up lacking a bit. Isn't concentration a vital skill for a caster? I'm a tabletop D&D player, so maybe something about the mechanics here are different that I'm missing, but if you have 18 INT you'll get 6 SP to spend per level of Wizard and only one more level of Rogue for a couple extra points later on.

If you always put points into Disable Device, UMD and Search when you level, there aren't many to put into Concentration...

How high do you need your concentration score to be in DDO if you're a wizard?

[Muldamai]

Wow, did everyone wake up? No one responded to the original post this weekend, so I thought I would give it a go with my limited time and knowledge in game, and ka-pow! look at all these responses now.

Nihlia, looks good. Go forward and play! You might come back and tweak things somewhat, but this will carry you far.

Lucen791, concentration should be as high as you can make it, but not spending feats or enhancements to make it any better (in general). Mechanics are such 25-30 concentration will work in most circumstances.

[Lucen791]

Thanks. Between this thread and zukt in my thread, I think I may be swaying back toward a pure WF Wizard as opposed to the rogue splash version.

[oweieie]

It's totally worth -1 to your Spell DCs to get evasion.

No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.

So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.

This... is a pretty obvious choice.

[Muldamai]

No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.

So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.

This... is a pretty obvious choice.

Yep, obviously it's a personal choice. My 1st character I am playing a lot is a pure wizard (level 15 atm). Purely a power gaming toon, 300 hit points, doing farming runs just to get very specific item, this character will be a beast, max out favor, and will be my feeder to my other characters if they need stuff. 20 levels of wizarding is powerful.

But, 2 rogue/ 18 wizard is nothing to sneeze at either. Trap removal for most parts of the game can be valuable, especially if you are soloing or duoing content, not to mention Evasion. Heck, my 2nd favorite character I am playing is based on Impaqt's and Phidius' ideas (12 wizard/6 fighter/ 2 monk). I can tell how this will play out as a character after only 7 levels of wizard and dual wielding khopeshes. I feel I won't be hindered in any way by only having access to level 6 spells max.

Play what you like, but map it before hand. DDO is unique (in current online games) as you can really corkscrew a character in the dirt by haphazardly double or triple classing a character.

[Dutch01]

Wizard isn't a class that splashes something else well. It's really not worth giving up capstone and weakening your spell power just to be able to do traps. This is doubly true since it's a class with knock and true seeing so you can find secret doors and open almost any door or chest already anyway.

Wow try again, cause you are way wrong. Trap disabling higher then most full rogues can achieve, evasion, and cross class skill points for days well out weighs -1 to DC's and loss of 2 spell slots.


Edit: after seeing your rebuttal post with a shroud sp item and a few other things and you will have 0 issue with sp's. Now if at that point you are I would think that YOU are having issues with your spell point usage. The 18/2 wiz/rog is an extremely powerful and useful build. I would suggest knowing of what you speak before you do.

[fluffi]

I have a 12/6/2 Wiz/Fighter/Rogue where I used the following link to source out my trapping skills
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my...l)_high_enough
Diables = 56 = good to disable all non-epic traps
Search = 44 = good enough for non-epic traps

For my build I have
28 ranks(inc int modifier) +28 (items/buffs = +4(GH) +2(HoGF) +7(tools) +15(item)) +2 (skill boost) = 58

For rogue I took 1 at 1st level and the other at 14 so I have reconstruct as soon as I could. Rest was fighter in my case.

UMD = its easy to hit 39 with wiz. My toon has
21 ranks (inc -2 cha) + 18 (items/buffs = +4(GH) +2(HoGF) +3(bunny head) +3 (cha stat item) +6 (cha skill item))

[Phidius]

No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.


I'm not concerned about fewer spell points or spending more on each spell. I don't take the enhancements for more spell points or for cheaper metamagic as it is... there are other things that I need in my build that I can't replace with clickies and pots.

Precious has all the metamagic feats except Enlarge and Eschew Materials... I don't mind carrying components, and I have no fear of getting close to mobs.

Spell Penetration is my biggest concern, but a -2 isn't that big a deal to me... at least, I don't recall having to struggle to land spells on Precious.



So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.

This... is a pretty obvious choice.

Perhaps you are thinking that reflex saves are only used for traps? A good reflex save and evasion will mitigate a tremendous amount of damage from many common spells.

I noticed a tremendous change in the way Precious plays after he got evasion, after playing for 6+ months at the 16 cap without evasion.

Is evasion necessary? Not at all. Is it more fun for me and the way I play? You betcha.

[Ryiah]

You also give up... spell points, all your spells will be more expensive, a feat, spell penetration. You're basically making everything about the wizard worse.

So... make every spell you cast less likely to land, do less damage, cost more and have a smaller pool or... take no damage if I make a save the extremely rare times I put myself in a position to have to make one.
Your points really don't make any sense. I feel as if, based on the comment above about making wizard worse, that you don't really play a wizard or maybe don't understand how to play one properly. If you absolutely have to have the capstone to land hits or to have enough spell points to make it through a quest then you are either badly geared or are doing something wrong.

My pure wizard only has a spell penetration item and both the feats. It lacks the enhancements because frankly they just aren't necessary. It almost never gets anything resisted. And then its usually on something red named or on elite that it actually misses.


No. No. No no no no no. And even if that was ALL you give up, no.
To change and reverse your wording, "Yes. Yes. Yes ... yes. And even if all you gained was evasion, hell yes". The fact is evasion makes all the difference in the word. You suddenly go from having a hard time surviving certain situations to being easily able to survive them.

Think of Stealer of Souls, the fire side. First words in that side are typically "If you don't have evasion, STAY BACK." Without evasion, I have to use enlarge to land hits and to buff the party from range. Having to use enlarge costs a lot more than the spell points you'd lose by gaining evasion and being able to do it right in front of the enemies.

Not to mention the ability to get into parties you normally wouldn't be able to get into because they need a rogue. I've seen a number of situations where parties running quests I want done won't take a wizard because they need a rogue. Typically its not for unlocking doors they want a rogue. Its for the traps which give boosts to exp. With two levels of rogue, and proper skill point allocation, you would be gaining all the experience from every quest you do simply because you'd be your own rogue.

I've tried running up a few variations on a 2 rogue/18 wizard build in the planner in preparation for the next stage of my completionist feat attempt. So far they've all had maxed open lock, disable traps, search, and UMD. Concentration really isn't that big of a deal but regardless it'll only be about seven points behind everything else. You can always throw quicken into the build at some point if you feel like you're getting interrupted too often. Being the third class I'm doing, it'll have 36 points to allocate giving me 16 str, 18 con, 18 int on a warforge. Levels before firewall I'll probably run around doing melee with extended (order of metamagics I take are extend, maximize, heighten, empower) spells to boost my ability to land blows.

[oweieie]

Your points really don't make any sense. I feel as if, based on the comment above about making wizard worse, that you don't really play a wizard or maybe don't understand how to play one properly.

LMAO! You are indeed funny if nothing else.


If you absolutely have to have the capstone to land hits or to have enough spell points to make it through a quest then you are either badly geared or are doing something wrong.

Or doing a much harder quest than you've ever done.

Your implication is that evasion and trap disabling is an "absolutely have".


My pure wizard only has a spell penetration item and both the feats. It lacks the enhancements because frankly they just aren't necessary. It almost never gets anything resisted. And then its usually on something red named or on elite that it actually misses.

Trash in shavarath and in normal difficulty quests like monastary of the scorpion will have 29+ SR. That means your wail, dance and mass hold will fail to land 20% of the time. That is not "almost never." That is a complete failure as a player to notice how gimp you are. Any party that took you on a hard or elite quest is going to seriously suffer if they expect you to be a wizard and do crowd control or be anything other than a buff bot.


To change and reverse your wording, "Yes. Yes. Yes ... yes. And even if all you gained was evasion, hell yes". The fact is evasion makes all the difference in the word. You suddenly go from having a hard time surviving certain situations to being easily able to survive them.

Please at least try to make sense. If you have 350 HPs then you need to be smacked for 350 damage AND MAKE THE SAVE before getting healing in order for evasion to save you from anything. If you're getting hit that hard and actually expect to make the save you're dreaming. Unless you've gotten improved evasion or spent a lot more than 2 levels to get at least a +30 reflex save, evasion is doing jack all for you.


Think of Stealer of Souls, the fire side. First words in that side are typically "If you don't have evasion, STAY BACK." Without evasion, I have to use enlarge to land hits and to buff the party from range. Having to use enlarge costs a lot more than the spell points you'd lose by gaining evasion and being able to do it right in front of the enemies.

*sigh* you clearly don't know what improved evasion does or that fact that you don't get it from 2 levels of rogue or that dexterity, something that wizards don't have in abundance, helps your reflex save. As your warforged build you mention doesn't have it, your evasion from 2 levels of rogue will help you a whopping 5% of the time.


Not to mention the ability to get into parties you normally wouldn't be able to get into because they need a rogue.

Offset by the parties you lose because they want a competent arcane.


I've tried running up a few variations on a 2 rogue/18 wizard build in the planner in preparation for the next stage of my completionist feat attempt. So far they've all had maxed open lock, disable traps, search, and UMD. Concentration really isn't that big of a deal but regardless it'll only be about seven points behind everything else.

Yes, the ability to get a spell off when you're taking damage is definitely something to give up in preference to opening locks. Since all you ever do as a wizard is buff apparently you don't actually have to cast when being hit.

[Dutch01]

*sigh* you clearly don't know what improved evasion does or that fact that you don't get it from 2 levels of rogue or that dexterity, something that wizards don't have in abundance, helps your reflex save. As your warforged build you mention doesn't have it, your evasion from 2 levels of rogue will help you a whopping 5% of the time.

I'm too tired to argue your entire post so I'll just focus on this part right here.

1st I never saw her mention improved evasion, YOU are the only one bringing that in. This right here voids any intelligent discourse you have attempted already, but I will continue

2nd Having a high dexterity is NOT the only way to end up with high reflex saves. I was going to tell you what else would do it and be pertinent to a wizard, but I am going to challenge you to remove the 5th point of contact for a few minutes and do some research and get back to us. There is a very simple answer, it is 2 words long, and extremely pertinent to the 18/2 Wiz/Rog build.

3rd Again I have reiterate that moving the mouth and speaking (or in this case moving the fingers and typing) without knowing of what you speak makes you look foolish. You may consider sitting back and listening for awhile.


As a side note because I see you bringing this up, do not let the join date fool you this is a second account and I have been around much much longer then the date here states.

[oweieie]

1st I never saw her mention improved evasion, YOU are the only one bringing that in. This right here voids any intelligent discourse you have attempted already, but I will continue

Reading comprehension. She doesn't mention it because she doesn't know about it. Look at her comment about SoS.


2nd Having a high dexterity is NOT the only way to end up with high reflex saves. I was going to tell you what else would do it and be pertinent to a wizard, but I am going to challenge you to remove the 5th point of contact for a few minutes and do some research and get back to us. There is a very simple answer, it is 2 words long, and extremely pertinent to the 18/2 Wiz/Rog build.

It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.


3rd Again I have reiterate that moving the mouth and speaking (or in this case moving the fingers and typing) without knowing of what you speak makes you look foolish. You may consider sitting back and listening for awhile.

Advice you desperately need to take yourself.


As a side note because I see you bringing this up, do not let the join date fool you this is a second account and I have been around much much longer then the date here states.

So you have no excuse.

[Dutch01]

Reading comprehension. She doesn't mention it because she doesn't know about it. Look at her comment about SoS.



It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.



Advice you desperately need to take yourself.



So you have no excuse.

First you're wrong (http://proudatheists.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wrong-7048801.jpg) again

For that build it is not ****ing away a feat so try again. Not only did your attempt at logic fail, but your attempt at trying to sound intelligent fell so wildly off the mark you somehow landed off in left field somewhere. Your not gimping yourself and if you had had an inkling of an idea of what you were talking about you would realize that. SO I assert to you again remove your 5th point of contact, it will do you good.

[oweieie]

For that build it is not ****ing away a feat so try again.

Break our your second hand, use the fingers. Count.


Not only did your attempt at logic fail, but your attempt at trying to sound intelligent fell so wildly off the mark you somehow landed off in left field somewhere. Your not gimping yourself and if you had had an inkling of an idea of what you were talking about you would realize that. SO I assert to you again remove your 5th point of contact, it will do you good.

*yawn*

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

[Dutch01]

Break our your second hand, use the fingers. Count.


*yawn*

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

Hmmm let me think here Toughness, Extend, Empower, Maximize, Insightful Reflex's ..... hey what do you know I still have 2 more feats I can burn up on what ever I want hmmm guess I didn't **** away a feat try again chump you fail.

Tell ya what go ahead and send me your list of toons so I can go ahead and put them on my no fly list.

edit:After the night passed it occurred to me one thing, you get even more then that in feats because at 1, 5, 10, and 15 you get class feats also, so that covers your metas and still allows you several other feat selections for whatever you choose to take along with that [sarcasm on] just ever so wasteful[sarcasm off] insightful reflex's.

[Nihlia]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

[JeffreyGator]

My first toon to 1750 favor was very similiar to what you are building. (less umd, more spot, occasionally wacked things with a big stick to save spell points there's a lot of mellee in this game even at times for a caster)

short handed and in the right groups being the trap-disabler (for groups that aren't just ignoring the traps) will help you to learn the quests and the game more than just nuking stuff.

good luck and enjoy!

[Phidius]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

This is full of win. +1

[Dutch01]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

See you have the right idea. You want to have fun with it, both ways are very viable, one more utilitarian then the other but both viable and you go with the style you like to play. Some people though are just so hell bent on pigeonholing classes into one role and expect everyone to do nothing else but that.

[Beld]

and an 12/2 wiz/rogue split atm, and I built the wiz/rogue specifically for evasion, backstab damage (and to be warforged, self healing, 450+ HP at lvl 20 ftw :) ) and I can tell you there is very little if any difference in the two other than about 150 SP, which I can make up with a regular mnemonic that drops a dime a dozen in almost EVERY quest I run.

Having said that, the splash does traps as good or better than my pure rogue (tho admittedly he's an assassin, not really all in for traps anyway) and the extra HP from evasion kicks arse (and yes, it is extra HP, which equates for extra SP in a self healing class) additionally, I'll run my splash against your wiz any day on Tear and watch a laugh my freakin' arse off when you waste your SP trying to knock the shrine doors at level.....heh.

I can open a shrine door WITHOUT SP, therefore, I have gained back most if not all (depends on how many casts it takes you to get it open) your SP difference (and if you can't get it open, I've got you totally borked, cause I got it open, and got all my SP back).

There are also stealth issues that can be beneficial, with insightful reflexes, the ability to SELF CAST GH and BLUR and DISPLACE and STONESKIN and go to town with a 24-26 STR backstabbing WF is great when I don't need to provide burst damage thus providing benefit (even when out of SP which, having played a pure wizard almost to cap, when the SP is gone, most, if not all the usefulness is gone as well).

My reflex save @ lvl 14 is already +26 self buffed, and by casting nightshield, I don't need to worry about a resistance item taking up a slot (and the reflex is still +18 or +20 toe to toe with a beholder, which is nothing to sneeze at).

In closing, take your ill conceived and completely BIASED trolling somewhere else, and OP, enjoy your evasion wizard, you will definately enjoy it :) and welcome to DDO.

[gavagai]

It's called making yourself gimper. You honestly think ****ing away a feat is a good idea? Get a clue.


Just in case you didn't catch it before, Insightful Reflexes is what helps a Wizard keep his reflex save competitive with the rogue's.

And frankly, even a pure Wizard should take Insightful Reflexes. Evasion or not, 1 feat is undoubtedly worth +15 to your reflex save.

[garkzz]

Think about starting with these stats:
str 11
dex 8
con 19
wis 6
int 18
cha 6

+1 tomes for str and con aren't that hard to find.

18/2 wiz/rogues are great at soloing especially for your first character on a server, great for getting favor and farming areas like orchard and the desert.

my guy is level 16 and already can get almost 60 in search and more than 60 in disable device with only self buffs. Traps aren't a problem. Learn where they are and how to avoid them so you can search and disable.

[jstroud]

I'd bet even my dog could tell a 20 wizard is better at being a wizard than an 18/2. Dog 1, you 0.

And if your dog could tell that, then I bet your dog could also tell that the OP wanted advice on a 18 Wizard/2 Rogue build, and not a debate of the comparative merits and faults of such a build versus a pure level 20 Wizard.

Such a debate would have better reception in a seperate thread - pure Wizard is indeed powerful, but it is NOT what the OP wants. Please refrain from trying to make the OP and the others "see the light" and try to focus on giving solid advice on the requested build, regardless of how "gimpy" you feel it to be.

It is called objectivity - you should give it a try, it's much more fun than bias.

Dog 2, us 0, you 0.

[Fedora]

An 18/2 wizard/rogue is a better rogue than a 20 wizard....

[HallowedOne]

If a group doesn't take me as an 18/2 wizard rogue splash because they want a 20 wizard, so be it. I don't need them. This build will be FUN for me. Do I care if I'm some uber big bang character? No. Do I want to be a viable character that can have fun? Yes. Do I want to do the best with a rogue/caster that I can? Yes.

In the end, I do appreciate the point/counter point of pure vs a splash but I never set out to be a pure wizard in the first place. I wanted a character that can do traps and doesn't have to melee. One that can heal themselves, solo when I want and join groups too.

If I find that traps aren't all that fun after I discover all those hidden goodies out there, I'll TR her at 20 to a big bang uber raiding magic machine. Until then, I'm in it for the giggles and surprises.

+1 for the sheer awesomeness of the response :)

[AdahnX]

Just wanted to say that I found this thread, along with a few other posts on Rogue/Wizard builds, extremely helpful, despite getting a little off topic for a while. I did a lot of rerolls since trying DDO, never getting off the island or making it past level 3. I finally made a Tinkerer (named in another post for trapmonkey wizards) and I haven't looked back. I like the self-sufficiency and versatility. And it combines my two favorite collections. Learning every spell in the game and accumulating a massive amount of skill points.