Embrace Change

[Levit]

This game has been around for over 4 years now and I'm guessing that the population that has been around since beta has greatly diminished. Very few folk remember when level 10 was the cap and ransacking the chests in Thernal was a good way of making loot (Co6 too).

What is really sad is that the few that are left from beta have rounded the wagons and islolated themselves from the wave of new players that are coming to the game. They have formed tight knit social circles that have little room for new talent or even a chance to see the new talent out there.

If this were the workplace, the senior members of the staff would take the kid fresh from college under his/her wing and mentor them, passing on their institutional knowledge and also job related experiences, knowing that college can only teach so much and that there is nothing better than "On the Job Training".

Why should DDO be much different? I often read about 6 manning this or that raid. Why not open it up for a couple of folks that normally would never get a chance at some raids? Another cleric or bard can't mess a raid up that much, and if you are uber, you should be able to overcome their inexperience.

Who knows, maybe the person you invite is the next Spisey, Tink or Hefty? Or maybe they are that guy that will always be willing to run his cleric and be healbot for ya.

I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.

BTW, I happen to be someone who has been around a while, tends to pug almost entirely, and belongs to no chat channels whatsoever so I have some ground to speak from.

[Visty]

when you try to mentor ppl and those ppl dont listen and whipe your parties, then you wont mentor new ppl anymore
the problem arent the vets here, neither the newbs, its the noobs

[Original]

Good Idea... all new players can go to your server.. make it be known.

[Philam]

bah hum-bug!:p

Ph

[Levit]

when you try to mentor ppl and those ppl dont listen and whipe your parties, then you wont mentor new ppl anymore
the problem arent the vets here, neither the newbs, its the noobs

So you are saying that a level 18 cleric that has done the prereq's for an abbot or Tod and is invited into a group with 8-10 vets won't listen to directions and will wipe a party? Or are you talking about the 3-4 TR's that are speed running Deleras for xp and invite someone in to show the ropes to him? I guess he could wipe a group too.

Do better than that. That is what dismiss is for. I've run with very good new players that have great twitch skills from other games and are just lacking the quest/mechanics knowledge of this game.

I don't disagree that there are folks who are coming to the game to just try it out and screw around but I think they are the minority.

[totmacher]

my god, i hope the next person i invite isn't the next tink spisey or hefty. those are some god awful players :D

[Visty]

So you are saying that a level 18 cleric that has done the prereq's for an abbot or Tod and is invited into a group with 8-10 vets won't listen to directions and will wipe a party? Or are you talking about the 3-4 TR's that are speed running Deleras for xp and invite someone in to show the ropes to him? I guess he could wipe a group too.

Do better than that. That is what dismiss is for. I've run with very good new players that have great twitch skills from other games and are just lacking the quest/mechanics knowledge of this game.

I don't disagree that there are folks who are coming to the game to just try it out and screw around but I think they are the minority.

everyone can get to 18 easily, prerequesits are piked easily, TR is done easily too, that means exactly nothing

seems like you werent here for some time

also you cant dismiss them if they are already inside the quest

[Levit]

my god, i hope the next person i invite isn't the next tink spisey or hefty. those are some god awful players :D

Alrighty, the next Tot! Better?

[Levit]

everyone can get to 18 easily, prerequesits are piked easily, TR is done easily too, that means exactly nothing

seems like you werent here for some time

also you cant dismiss them if they are already inside the quest

Dude, do you read your own stuff? If you wiped, wouldn't the quest be done? C'mon, quit pointing to the splinter in my eye when there is a tree in your's.

[Visty]

Dude, do you read your own stuff? If you wiped, wouldn't the quest be done? C'mon, quit pointing to the splinter in my eye when there is a tree in your's.

have you logged on since sep09?

€: so, whos the coward giving me neg rep for this?
speak up if you have something to say

[Levit]

have you logged on since sep09?

Nope, first time since September, 09. Thought it would be cool to type something that I know nothing about so others can point out how little I know. You saw right through me! Bet nobody fooled you on April Fools Day.

[kaelis]

In the work force you can fire idiots. In ddo we can't perma ban them all so we must instead ignore them as best we can.

[Lerincho]

as someone that has been here for 5 years, the comparison to the work place is bogus.

F2P are here because it's free. they think they know the game and wont listen, on majority, and there for cause more frustration. there are a few new players that are willing to listen and learn, but those individuals are very far and few in between.

When too many people have tried to help them, failed and because they cannot be kicked while in dungeons when someone out of frustration just finishes the quest they gain the XP. Instead of holding the unwilling to listen individual accountable people breeze them through to get their dealings with them over with, so they never learn differently except "hey these people are easy to tag along with".

[Thucydides04]

This game has been around for over 4 years now and I'm guessing that the population that has been around since beta has greatly diminished. Very few folk remember when level 10 was the cap and ransacking the chests in Thernal was a good way of making loot (Co6 too).

What is really sad is that the few that are left from beta have rounded the wagons and islolated themselves from the wave of new players that are coming to the game. They have formed tight knit social circles that have little room for new talent or even a chance to see the new talent out there.

If this were the workplace, the senior members of the staff would take the kid fresh from college under his/her wing and mentor them, passing on their institutional knowledge and also job related experiences, knowing that college can only teach so much and that there is nothing better than "On the Job Training".

Why should DDO be much different? I often read about 6 manning this or that raid. Why not open it up for a couple of folks that normally would never get a chance at some raids? Another cleric or bard can't mess a raid up that much, and if you are uber, you should be able to overcome their inexperience.

Who knows, maybe the person you invite is the next Spisey, Tink or Hefty? Or maybe they are that guy that will always be willing to run his cleric and be healbot for ya.

I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.

BTW, I happen to be someone who has been around a while, tends to pug almost entirely, and belongs to no chat channels whatsoever so I have some ground to speak from.

Here is the thing that I (and presumably most vets) take issue with: It was never easy in the beginning. When I started playing (which was much later than most of the "vets" around here) nobody showed me how to run quests or build toons etc. Instead, I had to figure things out, which meant that I had to run in some terrible pugs and receive reprimand for not having some item and so on. Hell, I didn't even complete VoD until I built my own tank for the raid. The main point I think is that most of thye good players had to suffer through the process I just described in order to get where they are now. Furthermore, I view this process as a sort of weeding out process, where if you are good enough to build some toons and learn some quests without the help of a bunch of good players, then you are likely to be a contributor to the group. Just like every other group that runs a quest, vets want contributors not individuals who will be a detriment to the group.

As far as PUGing goes, I know that the people I run with do PUG from time to time when we need a certain class or an extra body to pull some levers or w/e. When we do PUG, that is YOUR opportunity to make yourself known as a good player. If you do a good job, maybe next time we send you a tell and invite you instead of throwing up the LFM and after a bit of that you get into static groups. Furthermore, as a special side note, most of the people I run with are looking for certain loot, and when that loot drops they don't want to give it to some PUG, it doesn't help the static group for a PUG who (in nearly all cases) piked most of the quest to end up with our raid loot.

[Mr_Ed7]

if you are uber, you should be able to overcome their inexperience.

Right!? If you are so uber...then consider it a challenge to get the noobs through!

Imagine if Gandalf & Aragorn did not take the Hobbits...'cause they were'nt experienced!




I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.


I am trying over here on my end! Thankless job it is!

[Lerincho]

I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.


we took this before the tribal council... they said do not bother them with such pedestrian ways of thinking.

[Rav'n]

Since TRing my main, I've PuGed almost every quest. I've been fortunate to run with a few Channel/Guild players for an hour or two of Grind sessions... but 80% has been pugs.

I've had Good PuGs, I had bad. Way back at level 3 I was being told (by Noobs) that since I was a Bard, I should Buff, stay back and help the Healers. ROFL!! Two days ago in a Gwylan run a Rogue was miffed because I wasn't healing him. ROFL!!! I've also been booted from parties by Noobs who didn't like that their "Awesomekill" Dwarf Barbarian had half the kills as my Bard 1 level below his...

On the flip side... I ran with a few people that were new, said they'd only been playing a few weeks. They listened to advide (of course... I think the Clerics only listened because I'd hand them a stack of heal Scrolls...) and are now on my Friends list.

I don't think I'll cirlcle the wagons just yet... but I agree with others... there's a LOT of bad players out there that have NO clue how to play... and just "SHOUT" in chat if you don'tdo things their way.

[Rav'n]

Imagine if Gandalf & Aragorn did not take the Hobbits...'cause they were'nt experienced!



Then I wouldn't have to skip thru the Hobbit scenes whenever i watch LoTR's!!

[dunklezhan]

Then I wouldn't have to skip thru the Hobbit scenes whenever i watch LoTR's!!

Gandalf really should have just asked the eagles to drop the **** ring in Mount Doom. Would have saved everyone a lot of angst and let Sam and Frodo get with the strawberry bubble bath much sooner. Bow chicka wow-wow....

On topic, believe you me, even with all us tarred-with-the-same-brush freemium players now destroying with our craptastic playing your pristine-and-oh-so hardcore-game-that-wouldn't-exist-anymore-without-us... (sorry for the sarcasm but some of the outright jealousy on display by certain vets is quite disturbing)... yes, even with all of that, DDO still has a way better, more open & friendly community than any other game I've played. Don't play Argo down OP, people are still pretty friendly here in my exp.

[Rav'n]

Don't play Argo down OP, people are still pretty friendly here in my exp.

We obviously didn't run together this week... :D

[Ota]

So you are saying that a level 18 cleric that has done the prereq's for an abbot or Tod and is invited into a group with 8-10 vets won't listen to directions and will wipe a party?

yeah that pretty much covers it i seen it happen

pugcleric only job make sure maintank doesnt die guild cleric cover everything else.... oh wow, maintank just died, good job and lets not even get started on clowns that wont get their own curses

[Tabun]

Then I wouldn't have to skip thru the Hobbit scenes whenever i watch LoTR's!!

+1 right there baby

[Ganak]

I'll try to phase my comment carefully, because my intention is not to offend:
I don't think the portrait of us vets painted in the OP is quite accurate nor fair, and is rather the view of an outsider. Like the unpopular kid who wishes the cool kids would take him under their wing. It's too socially complex to easily explain and goes outside of the game into human behavior. If you can explain it well, you would win a noble prize.

Here's the scoop: New players need to cut their teeth on the game, gear up and get some experience. That takes a very significant investment of time. Once they reach that point, we do open raids and groups to pugs. There is an opportunity to run and impress vets. That burden is on the new players.


There is no easy button.


The expectation that we should be the benevolent mentor at the cost of our time and resources is not fair, nor realistic.



The goals and methods of vets vs newer players are often not the same.



Now I believe vets should have a responsibility to be good ambassadors to the game when placed in the situation. There are vets who spend considerable amounts of time with new players and love it (Gummy, god bless him). But if a vet wants to avoid that situation that is fine and certainly their right.

I do enjoy the opportunity to guide and mentor (I acted as the sheppard during my TS run yesterday, running back and guiding lost players). My latest TR I am pugging a lot for the purpose of checking out new talent, because there is talent out there. I am really looking forward to another six months from now when this talent matures.


Finally, I'll throw this out there. Be careful what you wish for!! Do you know what running with us at our speed is like? Our pace is not going to be fun for a new player, and no amount of "mentoring" is going to make up for someone who just is not ready to run at a high level. New players are going to have a more enjoyable time running with like players.

[toughguyjoe]

I pug raids all the time. Its lovely to see raid loot get pulled, someone put it up.....and nearly everyone roll on it. I know I know....TR right?

Barb rolls 88 and wins Chattering ring. I state in VC: "I wouldn't give the ring to a Barb." Ring stays in limbo for a good couple minutes. I type in Party chat: Its yours to give man, just saying, he probably has no TR Plans. To which i hear in VC: But it'll bring my ac up by 3!.....Ring is given to the next highest roll, a splashed pally with a viable AC. Barb complains about the ring not being passed to him.

If I took zero pugs into Titan, no one new would learn the raid. However.....I wouldn't have to listen to stuff like the above.

Which is better?

[WeaselKing]

my god, i hope the next person i invite isn't the next tink spisey or hefty. those are some god awful players :D

I hope they are the next Tab. He is so dreamy.

[Visty]

levit, have you now brought your friends in to negrep those who disagree with you?
wont make your point any better


have you logged on since sep09?

€: so, whos the coward giving me neg rep for this?
speak up if you have something to say

[WeaselKing]

Here is the thing that I (and presumably most vets) take issue with: It was never easy in the beginning. When I started playing (which was much later than most of the "vets" around here) nobody showed me how to run quests or build toons etc. Instead, I had to figure things out, which meant that I had to run in some terrible pugs and receive reprimand for not having some item and so on. Hell, I didn't even complete VoD until I built my own tank for the raid. The main point I think is that most of thye good players had to suffer through the process I just described in order to get where they are now. Furthermore, I view this process as a sort of weeding out process, where if you are good enough to build some toons and learn some quests without the help of a bunch of good players, then you are likely to be a contributor to the group. Just like every other group that runs a quest, vets want contributors not individuals who will be a detriment to the group.

As far as PUGing goes, I know that the people I run with do PUG from time to time when we need a certain class or an extra body to pull some levers or w/e. When we do PUG, that is YOUR opportunity to make yourself known as a good player. If you do a good job, maybe next time we send you a tell and invite you instead of throwing up the LFM and after a bit of that you get into static groups. Furthermore, as a special side note, most of the people I run with are looking for certain loot, and when that loot drops they don't want to give it to some PUG, it doesn't help the static group for a PUG who (in nearly all cases) piked most of the quest to end up with our raid loot.

Very well put, Vanilla Face.

[Rav'n]

I think this post sums up why we the "VETS" want to circle the wagons.... so to speak (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2865223&postcount=1)

Yes I know... this doesn't represent ALL new players. Just like the original post doesn't represent all Vets. But with New players like this making noise...... we the VETS want to /squelch them.

[vVAnjilaVv]

The problem is the so called new talent that is out there is going to need a lot of time to blossom. I'm sorry to say but alot of new players are nothing more than droids that need constant instructions, are not proactive, use very little common sense and are always holding thier hand out for donations.

Keep in mind I said A LOT, not all.

The thing is....we the vets are tired...we wanna come on and get our loot, have fun, obtain more power, not spend all day weeding through the riftraft.

Before the game was F2P, people had to pay to play, they would put in effort, because they wanted thier moneys worth, it's not the case anymore. Sorry the truth is the truth.

And by the way, contrary to the forum join date up thier, I had been around almost 3 years before the game went F2P.

[Galacticus]

This game has been around for over 4 years now and I'm guessing that the population that has been around since beta has greatly diminished.

If you've actually been around for 4 years you would know that most of us that began back then are still here but we've formed a tight knit community

Very few folk remember when level 10 was the cap and ransacking the chests in Thernal was a good way of making loot (Co6 too).

I think you're one of those that left in the first few months and finally came back to the game and playing as you always did terrible, so the vets who have always been here and tought it out wont let you in their parties cause they don't want to waste their time

What is really sad is that the few that are left from beta have rounded the wagons and islolated themselves from the wave of new players that are coming to the game. They have formed tight knit social circles that have little room for new talent or even a chance to see the new talent out there.

That's right tight community higher efficiency better chances at better loot.Period! And may I point out since we've been around for this long and have run with each other for so long have become very good friends. I don't need any new ones especially people that can't listen and can't play

If this were the workplace, the senior members of the staff would take the kid fresh from college under his/her wing and mentor them, passing on their institutional knowledge and also job related experiences, knowing that college can only teach so much and that there is nothing better than "On the Job Training".

Why should DDO be much different?

I don't get paid to play this game that's the difference! I come here to enjoy myself not to teach some noob what to do and because he's a noob doesn't listen and kills us all.

I often read about 6 manning this or that raid. Why not open it up for a couple of folks that normally would never get a chance at some raids? Another cleric or bard can't mess a raid up that much, and if you are uber, you should be able to overcome their inexperience.

We pay for the game and because of that we choose who to play with, and we choose who not to bring into the group. It's called choice

Who knows, maybe the person you invite is the next Spisey, Tink or Hefty? Or maybe they are that guy that will always be willing to run his cleric and be healbot for ya.

If you actually knew these people you would know that they are unique individuals. There will never be another Spisey Tink or Heffty. Especially Heffty. He was born that way!


I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you don't like it leave.

BTW, I happen to be someone who has been around a while, tends to pug almost entirely, and belongs to no chat channels whatsoever so I have some ground to speak from

I doubt it welcome back though...how was your 3 1/2 year vacation?


Answer in Red

[Galacticus]

I'll try to phase my comment carefully, because my intention is not to offend:
I don't think the portrait of us vets painted in the OP is quite accurate nor fair, and is rather the view of an outsider. Like the unpopular kid who wishes the cool kids would take him under their wing. It's too socially complex to easily explain and goes outside of the game into human behavior. If you can explain it well, you would win a noble prize.

Here's the scoop: New players need to cut their teeth on the game, gear up and get some experience. That takes a very significant investment of time. Once they reach that point, we do open raids and groups to pugs. There is an opportunity to run and impress vets. That burden is on the new players.


There is no easy button.


The expectation that we should be the benevolent mentor at the cost of our time and resources is not fair, nor realistic.



The goals and methods of vets vs newer players are often not the same.



Now I believe vets should have a responsibility to be good ambassadors to the game when placed in the situation. There are vets who spend considerable amounts of time with new players and love it (Gummy, god bless him). But if a vet wants to avoid that situation that is fine and certainly their right.

I do enjoy the opportunity to guide and mentor (I acted as the sheppard during my TS run yesterday, running back and guiding lost players). My latest TR I am pugging a lot for the purpose of checking out new talent, because there is talent out there. I am really looking forward to another six months from now when this talent matures.


Finally, I'll throw this out there. Be careful what you wish for!! Do you know what running with us at our speed is like? Our pace is not going to be fun for a new player, and no amount of "mentoring" is going to make up for someone who just is not ready to run at a high level. New players are going to have a more enjoyable time running with like players.


+1 rep well said but I am not that nice I don't bother looking for new talent it slows down the loot train...


Lootmongers Rule #123 "Don't slow down the loot train."

[Milamber69]

my god, i hope the next person i invite isn't the next tink spisey or hefty. those are some god awful players :D

Yeah I stopped reading after that part. Tink? Hefty? Yeah ok then

[Levit]

Don't know where to start.....I guess let me address the guy that said i neg rep'ed him. This game is not my life.......I don't even have a clue how to neg rep someone, let alone ask people to waste a minute of their lives to go on this website and enact some sort of revenge or whatever you think it is. You are entitled to your opinion.

To some of the others, I am not asking to be in your tight knitted group. I know I most likely wouldn't be accepted because our gaming styles and personalities are very different, which is fine. My issue is that there are players out there that would really enjoy the game if they could learn the strategies that get the raids done effeciently and effectively.

I don't know, I really enjoy this game and feel that it is a wonderful product. But if few are buying the product what is the point of Turbine spending money to make it better? So many vets bash and bash the new players I get concerned that they will just move on to something else, taking their money with them.

I just thought some others felt as I did and would not see it as such a big deal to fill a raid with someone that they didn't know instead of short-manning it.

I guess the new players are without hope, not worth the effort and deserve to go through the same learning curve that the rest of us went through.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I guess the new players are without hope, not worth the effort and deserve to go through the same learning curve that the rest of us went through.

Why shouldn't they? They already have it 10x easier than we did....which is why I have no sympathy for them at all.

[ArkoHighStar]

I'll try to phase my comment carefully, because my intention is not to offend:
I don't think the portrait of us vets painted in the OP is quite accurate nor fair, and is rather the view of an outsider. Like the unpopular kid who wishes the cool kids would take him under their wing. It's too socially complex to easily explain and goes outside of the game into human behavior. If you can explain it well, you would win a noble prize.

Here's the scoop: New players need to cut their teeth on the game, gear up and get some experience. That takes a very significant investment of time. Once they reach that point, we do open raids and groups to pugs. There is an opportunity to run and impress vets. That burden is on the new players.


There is no easy button.


The expectation that we should be the benevolent mentor at the cost of our time and resources is not fair, nor realistic.



The goals and methods of vets vs newer players are often not the same.



Now I believe vets should have a responsibility to be good ambassadors to the game when placed in the situation. There are vets who spend considerable amounts of time with new players and love it (Gummy, god bless him). But if a vet wants to avoid that situation that is fine and certainly their right.

I do enjoy the opportunity to guide and mentor (I acted as the sheppard during my TS run yesterday, running back and guiding lost players). My latest TR I am pugging a lot for the purpose of checking out new talent, because there is talent out there. I am really looking forward to another six months from now when this talent matures.


Finally, I'll throw this out there. Be careful what you wish for!! Do you know what running with us at our speed is like? Our pace is not going to be fun for a new player, and no amount of "mentoring" is going to make up for someone who just is not ready to run at a high level. New players are going to have a more enjoyable time running with like players.

+1 rep for you my friend

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'll try to phase my comment carefully, because my intention is not to offend:
I don't think the portrait of us vets painted in the OP is quite accurate nor fair, and is rather the view of an outsider. Like the unpopular kid who wishes the cool kids would take him under their wing. It's too socially complex to easily explain and goes outside of the game into human behavior. If you can explain it well, you would win a noble prize.

Here's the scoop: New players need to cut their teeth on the game, gear up and get some experience. That takes a very significant investment of time. Once they reach that point, we do open raids and groups to pugs. There is an opportunity to run and impress vets. That burden is on the new players.


There is no easy button.


The expectation that we should be the benevolent mentor at the cost of our time and resources is not fair, nor realistic.



The goals and methods of vets vs newer players are often not the same.



Now I believe vets should have a responsibility to be good ambassadors to the game when placed in the situation. There are vets who spend considerable amounts of time with new players and love it (Gummy, god bless him). But if a vet wants to avoid that situation that is fine and certainly their right.

I do enjoy the opportunity to guide and mentor (I acted as the sheppard during my TS run yesterday, running back and guiding lost players). My latest TR I am pugging a lot for the purpose of checking out new talent, because there is talent out there. I am really looking forward to another six months from now when this talent matures.


Finally, I'll throw this out there. Be careful what you wish for!! Do you know what running with us at our speed is like? Our pace is not going to be fun for a new player, and no amount of "mentoring" is going to make up for someone who just is not ready to run at a high level. New players are going to have a more enjoyable time running with like players.

Very well said Ganak

[Levit]

Why shouldn't they? They already have it 10x easier than we did....which is why I have no sympathy for them at all.

10x easier? ok i guess. BTW, I guess you would be critcal of those who post their techniques on youtube or wiki. Or scorn the fellow who created the crafting programs or puzzle solvers. I applaud these people for doing the grunt work and making these wonderful tools for others.

This is just a game. Why should others struggle just because we did? When me and my wife go the a party and there is a new board game the host doesn't throw the directions at us and say 'read this". They explain it and we all have a good time.

[vVAnjilaVv]

10x easier? ok i guess. BTW, I guess you would be critcal of those who post their techniques on youtube or wiki. Or scorn the fellow who created the crafting programs or puzzle solvers. I applaud these people for doing the grunt work and making these wonderful tools for others.

This is just a game. Why should others struggle just because we did? When me and my wife go the a party and there is a new board game the host doesn't throw the directions at us and say 'read this". They explain it and we all have a good time.

I never said anything wrong about people helping other people. Many of those guides and solvers tho were created long before the game was F2P.

And sorry but the fact of the matter is, it is not our obligation to help every new person in the game.

I will gladly help someone if they have incentive and are a good player. I however WILL NOT help someone, just because they are new. NEW and GOOD...yes.....just NEW and that's it...no.

You don't have to be an experienced player to be GOOD.

BTW...don't even contemplate persucuting people without ur lofty standards......if u wanna do it, have it, but sorry......we don't all wanna be you, nor are we doing anything remotely wrong by keeping to ourselves.

[Thucydides04]

10x easier? ok i guess. BTW, I guess you would be critcal of those who post their techniques on youtube or wiki. Or scorn the fellow who created the crafting programs or puzzle solvers. I applaud these people for doing the grunt work and making these wonderful tools for others.

This is just a game. Why should others struggle just because we did? When me and my wife go the a party and there is a new board game the host doesn't throw the directions at us and say 'read this". They explain it and we all have a good time.

It has nothing to do with making you or others struglle and everything to do with making runs faster and more efficient while allowing those within the static group maintain the loot.

[Rav'n]

Good analogy Levit. However, using that analogy... do you then tell the Host (who's game it is...) how to play the game? No..didn't think so.

I understand what you're trying to do here. Every few months someone steps up and says... "Vets...stopping being Elitists and help the Noobs". At which point, we explain why 'some' of us do or don't... then, the OP of said thread tries to argue down every thing said by the Vets.

Is it right? Is it wrong? It's neither... it just is.

Some of us will turn our backs and stay in our circles, some of us will open the doors and peek out at the new players... but in the end, threads like this do more to widen the gap between Vets and New players than to close it. (Just my opinion of course...).

You've said your piece, I for one repsect your opinion. I might no agree with it completely... but it is of course...your opinion. Others have stated theirs... if you want your opinion respected, you must also respect theirs.

[Paryan]

After reading this thread, there's a few thought's I 'd like to add.

First off, I'm new. I have a capped toon on argo, but so what? I'm new, and always still learning at this game which, I admit, am becoming mildly addicted to. Only demonstrating my skill (or lack there of in many cases) shows how I play. Lv 20 means nothing. Part of the reason I'm becoming an addict is because of my first Shroud run. I'd love to mention names etc, but know that's not a great idea on the forums, but there was a guild run that only had 5-6 guildies running and was pugging the other spots. This was not my guild, but they agreed to show me the ropes which was much appreciated. I don't know if these people were or are considered vets, but they knew a hell of a lot more than I did, asked me about my gear, offered pointers and tactics, and I had a blast running with them.

Now, I can guess that some of the long term vets here are thinking, "great another F2Per who wants their hand held.....piker!" Not quite... While I appreciate this guild showing me the shroud and making me better for future runs, they didn't have to and don't owe me anything. Now that I'm beginning the grinding process for certain pieces of gear, I appreciate people who want to run fast and hard to get it done with minimal chance of failure. I'll admit, that I may get in the way of that goal. Vets don't owe me (as a F2P, now premium) anything either. Anytime a raid group feels I may not wipe the group and gives me a spot, all the better for me. Anytime I get declined, so be it. They'll be another one, or I can start my own...

I want to learn to get better and ideally help out other guildies or pugs in the future. While that may be my playstyle that's not everyone's. I guess my point is, play how you want to play. The people who want to learn will. The people who want to teach others are there. The people who zerg for their own reasons will do so for their own reasons. The people who won't listen, won't listen....All the play styles are there...play how you want and you'll find others who compliment your style. As a new player, all I can ask is for a respectful tone, if you're a player who decides to offer advice to me...I'll screw up, but be willing to learn more based on how the info is given.

When all is said and done, I'll listen to advice, and follow good advice (btw /death is not good advice, funny as hell, but not good advice....), but still play my way as I hope you'll play yours. If it so happens that the ways are complementary, hey, it might be fun to run a few quests with ya.

As a side note completely off topic, It'd be nice if there were a way to make F2P's read the forums once and awhile...too much good info, builds, advice, quest help, etc. that it should be required. So many things that so many will never see...

Ok, off my soapbox.

[Rav'n]

Just re-read my post... in no way do I put myself in the Elite catagory... I just got lucky. When one of the 'Elite' players was slumming on a lowbie... a couple of Guildies and I impressed him enough to get invited into a few raids.

Which was posted previously on what a new player needs to do. Kind of like playing in the minors... when you get your shot... make sure you hit it out of the park. :D

[Levit]

I'll try to phase my comment carefully, because my intention is not to offend:
I don't think the portrait of us vets painted in the OP is quite accurate nor fair, and is rather the view of an outsider. Like the unpopular kid who wishes the cool kids would take him under their wing. It's too socially complex to easily explain and goes outside of the game into human behavior. If you can explain it well, you would win a noble prize.

Here's the scoop: New players need to cut their teeth on the game, gear up and get some experience. That takes a very significant investment of time. Once they reach that point, we do open raids and groups to pugs. There is an opportunity to run and impress vets. That burden is on the new players.


There is no easy button.


The expectation that we should be the benevolent mentor at the cost of our time and resources is not fair, nor realistic.



The goals and methods of vets vs newer players are often not the same.



Now I believe vets should have a responsibility to be good ambassadors to the game when placed in the situation. There are vets who spend considerable amounts of time with new players and love it (Gummy, god bless him). But if a vet wants to avoid that situation that is fine and certainly their right.

I do enjoy the opportunity to guide and mentor (I acted as the sheppard during my TS run yesterday, running back and guiding lost players). My latest TR I am pugging a lot for the purpose of checking out new talent, because there is talent out there. I am really looking forward to another six months from now when this talent matures.


Finally, I'll throw this out there. Be careful what you wish for!! Do you know what running with us at our speed is like? Our pace is not going to be fun for a new player, and no amount of "mentoring" is going to make up for someone who just is not ready to run at a high level. New players are going to have a more enjoyable time running with like players.

You know, I agree with about everything said here. You obviously put alot of time into it and it makes alot of sense to me. Your time to play this game is valuable to you (and others such as you) and slowing down to mentor cuts into this time. In addition, these are your friends and guys that you hang with quite regularly so why bring an outsider in?

But you do also state that you open some raids to others and that is all I am talking about. I think if you and I would chat there would be alot more common ground than you would think. This forum format, and my inability to express all my thoughts well in writing, may mess up the point that you made for me. We can mentor at times, there is talent out there, and occasionally it is viable for vets to include new players in some of their raids.

On the other side of the coin, I must admit that new players would be at a great disadvantage in some content, especially the epic stuff, so would find no joy in chasing your shadow around. I also readily admit that there is a large group (size up to debate) of folks that are just "checking the game out" and are generally a waste of time to teach.

I will list some of my toons below, only because some of the respondents to this tread feel I am newly back to the game after a long hiatus.

One-Buck, Level 20 Cleric
Holybuck 18 Ranger 1 Rogue 1 Monk
Handsfulbuck, 18 Ranger, 1 Rogue
Various other toons not worth mentioning.

I claim no great ability but do not like to be thought of as "new to the game".

[SableShadow]

...

All of that, with a sprinkling of "If you don't suck, you used to."

[Levit]

I never said anything wrong about people helping other people. Many of those guides and solvers tho were created long before the game was F2P.

And sorry but the fact of the matter is, it is not our obligation to help every new person in the game.

I will gladly help someone if they have incentive and are a good player. I however WILL NOT help someone, just because they are new. NEW and GOOD...yes.....just NEW and that's it...no.

You don't have to be an experienced player to be GOOD.

BTW...don't even contemplate persucuting people without ur lofty standards......if u wanna do it, have it, but sorry......we don't all wanna be you, nor are we doing anything remotely wrong by keeping to ourselves.

I hope I didn't come across as persucuting people. I am making an observation and opinion, something this format is for. If somebody feels persecuted by what I say then I am sorry, it was unattended and I am sorry.

As to my lofty standards, I don't think they are that lofty, but you are right, I have no right to impose them on others, I only have the right to share them on this format. My hope was to maybe to throw a rock in the stream of constant bashing I see of new players, offer a different opinion.

[Levit]

Answer in Red

Ouch, read all the stuff in red, felt like a ripping I would take from a professor in college, especially because it was in red.

You and I are obviously of differing opinions and mine greatly offends you. Can't really respond to much of what you said without great fear of escalation of the flames. Just to let you know, I do believe, after reading other responses, that alot of what you said has merit and I have rethought my position based on that and have modified it.

Good luck in your gaming!

[lugoman]

everyone can get to 18 easily, prerequesits are piked easily, TR is done easily too, that means exactly nothing

seems like you werent here for some time

also you cant dismiss them if they are already inside the quest

It is much easier to pike if you are part of a large raid running guild. Someone in a small guild has to join a pug to get the pre reqs and will probably have to work to get the quest done. Someone in a large guild can just say 'i need tod flag' and get carried through by a few guildies who have run the quests 50 times before.

I understand why it happens, who wants to do a quest the 51st time without zerging? But the person you are carrying will be a worse player for it.

[lugoman]

Here is the thing that I (and presumably most vets) take issue with: It was never easy in the beginning. When I started playing (which was much later than most of the "vets" around here) nobody showed me how to run quests or build toons etc. Instead, I had to figure things out, which meant that I had to run in some terrible pugs and receive reprimand for not having some item and so on. Hell, I didn't even complete VoD until I built my own tank for the raid. The main point I think is that most of thye good players had to suffer through the process I just described in order to get where they are now. Furthermore, I view this process as a sort of weeding out process, where if you are good enough to build some toons and learn some quests without the help of a bunch of good players, then you are likely to be a contributor to the group. Just like every other group that runs a quest, vets want contributors not individuals who will be a detriment to the group.



The problem is when you were learning when stuff first came out, everyone else was learning too. You had a whole server full of people who had nothing else to do (until the next mod) but run quest/raids until they got it down pat. They were willing and expecting to fail until they got it right. Playing now is completely different. There are fewer people available needing the quest and those that do will stick to guild only because they dont want to slow down and lead some noob through. If new players tried to trial and error there way through a raid they would spend all there time on lfg and quickly quit.

I dont know what the solution to the problem is, but it is a problem. Having two classes of players isnt good for the game. Besides mmogs are supposed to be social and running with the same people over and over isnt very social.

[SableShadow]

running with the same people over and over isnt very social.

Srsly?

[vVAnjilaVv]

You know what the truth of the matter is....we are all NEW!

We all learn stuff about the game everyday, whether we have been playing since beta or just started today.

My point is, a lot of the newer players don't want to learn...they just want, which is why I avoid so many of them.

[Spisey]

Having two classes of players isnt good for the game.


Actually 3 classes in the minds of the great players.

Elite with plat > Elite but broke > Everyone else

I've been stuck in the middle one but I;m trying REAL hard to gain mom and davey crockett status! :D :p

As far as the op, things move, fill and complete so fast and on to the next raid so fast most of the time, no one generally has time to search for people. Channels are always the first attempt do to consistently knowing is likely no fail. Then an lfm goes up. Now, AFAIK, your name has never come up in conversation in channels nor any bashing has been done. Granted, our guild does have a bad name for being "iffy" due to past players and bad experiences with some of our guildies of the past. But, we are competent (except for me who will throw a raid in a second ;) ) I have always been the very most social person in the guild and everyone knows this. This may be one reason I have always been accepted. That and the sheer number of hours I play a day. It just takes hawking lfm's which even I do, and timing.

Also, keep in mind that nothing is filling atm. We pug almost every run at this point because many hivemind workers have been tr'ing slimming down our populations.

I always have to shrug without an answer on this topic. I really don't have an answer. Really you don't want to be here. Most of us play way too much and are on the brink of losing our minds. That is never good! :p

[Ganak]

Great discussion and let me add something that may help others better understand the "vet" community.

In over four years non-stop of DDO, we've seen our in-game friends get drunk, get married, get divorced, have ups, have downs, have children born, have loved ones pass away, get new jobs, lose jobs, have good times, have bad times, get angry (drama!), make up, grind quests, get banned (lol), delete their toons in anger, sometimes come back:), sometimes not come back:(, more quest grinding, get banned again (lol).

I've seen boys leave game to join our armed forces and come back as men. Guilds rise and fall. Servers merge. Turbine staff come and go. Four+ years of change. What a ride.

It is a very tight knit community that I am proud to be a part of:p

[Xeraphim]

when you try to mentor ppl and those ppl dont listen and whipe your parties, then you wont mentor new ppl anymore
the problem arent the vets here, neither the newbs, its the noobs

Each and every person is different, and sometimes they need a good hard knock in the shame gland to wake up and smell the coffee.

I just keep mentoring.

[Xeraphim]

Elite with plat > Elite but broke > Everyone else

I'm pretty much permanently stuck in the middle.

Spisey, you're extorting the metagamers with Xachosian Eardwellers so :p

[Angelz_Fire]

Actually 3 classes in the minds of the great players.

Elite with plat > Elite but broke > Everyone else

I've been stuck in the middle one but I;m trying REAL hard to gain mom and davey crockett status! :D :p

As far as the op, things move, fill and complete so fast and on to the next raid so fast most of the time, no one generally has time to search for people. Channels are always the first attempt do to consistently knowing is likely no fail. Then an lfm goes up. Now, AFAIK, your name has never come up in conversation in channels nor any bashing has been done. Granted, our guild does have a bad name for being "iffy" due to past players and bad experiences with some of our guildies of the past. But, we are competent (except for me who will throw a raid in a second ;) ) I have always been the very most social person in the guild and everyone knows this. This may be one reason I have always been accepted. That and the sheer number of hours I play a day. It just takes hawking lfm's which even I do, and timing.

Also, keep in mind that nothing is filling atm. We pug almost every run at this point because many hivemind workers have been tr'ing slimming down our populations.

I always have to shrug without an answer on this topic. I really don't have an answer. Really you don't want to be here. Most of us play way too much and are on the brink of losing our minds. That is never good! :p

He forgot to mention he's huggable too!!

[Newtons_Apple]

This game has been around for over 4 years now and I'm guessing that the population that has been around since beta has greatly diminished. Very few folk remember when level 10 was the cap and ransacking the chests in Thernal was a good way of making loot (Co6 too).

What is really sad is that the few that are left from beta have rounded the wagons and islolated themselves from the wave of new players that are coming to the game. They have formed tight knit social circles that have little room for new talent or even a chance to see the new talent out there.

If this were the workplace, the senior members of the staff would take the kid fresh from college under his/her wing and mentor them, passing on their institutional knowledge and also job related experiences, knowing that college can only teach so much and that there is nothing better than "On the Job Training".

Why should DDO be much different? I often read about 6 manning this or that raid. Why not open it up for a couple of folks that normally would never get a chance at some raids? Another cleric or bard can't mess a raid up that much, and if you are uber, you should be able to overcome their inexperience.

Who knows, maybe the person you invite is the next Spisey, Tink or Hefty? Or maybe they are that guy that will always be willing to run his cleric and be healbot for ya.

I know this may sound far fetched but maybe Agronnesen can get a reputation as a place where new players are felt welcomed and we can improve the quality of players, instead of just complaining about them.

BTW, I happen to be someone who has been around a while, tends to pug almost entirely, and belongs to no chat channels whatsoever so I have some ground to speak from.

I play this game to have fun, not to emulate the workplace.

Personally, I have less time to play this game than I have in the past. So if I take a chance on leading a new player or 2 through whatever and he causes the party to wipe, my in-game time has been wasted.

I stick with people I know because they're funny as hell, I like running with them, and we get stuff done.

[Lerincho]

You know, I agree with about everything said here. You obviously put alot of time into it and it makes alot of sense to me. Your time to play this game is valuable to you (and others such as you) and slowing down to mentor cuts into this time. In addition, these are your friends and guys that you hang with quite regularly so why bring an outsider in? Is that not how Pen and Paper worked? You brought in friends, not complete strangers? When someone new joined it was because they had a strong connection with another within the inner circle, right?

I will list some of my toons below, only because some of the respondents to this tread feel I am newly back to the game after a long hiatus.

One-Buck, Level 20 Cleric
Holybuck 18 Ranger 1 Rogue 1 Monk
Handsfulbuck, 18 Ranger, 1 Rogue
Various other toons not worth mentioning.

I claim no great ability but do not like to be thought of as "new to the game".

Some of us knew who you were before posting your names, and have run with you. Does not change our opinions of the negative light that you elected to toss at the people who have been here since the lights were turned on.

More to the point, this game is not only 10 times easier than at prelaunch in 2006; it is almost 20 times easier. Death means absolutely nothing anymore, when it mean chunks of XP were taken away. You now have a store that you can even buy a repair anvil at, when repairing was only done at brokers, not even all bartenders; additionally some items were not even repairable. Vorpals, disruptors are now dime a dozen, when they use to actually mean something when pulled.

Learning curve to this game has been reduced drastically, so yes some of us founders feel a bit of "they haven't earned" enough yet.

[epochofcrepuscule]

Some of us like our small tight nit communities that you and the other noobs are not apart of. If you really think posting about it is going to change that, I hate to break your heart... but, it wont.

Also, most vets will pug the last 2 spots in a raid, why not right? Its not like they will make a real difference. noticeable? yes. Raid wipe? Only if you are -Elite but broke- ;)

Anyways, If there was a next tink, I would be causing trouble just to get her to swear. Anyone that knows her knows exactly how humorous it is.


Also, as previously stated, most of us vets are worn down and tired. We want to get on, accomplish what needs to be accomplished, then log. We dont want to waste time trying to get some noob to the quest, in the quest, carry them through the quest, then watch as they pull raid loot that benefits them in no way, then recall and say, "thanks for the run!"

One of my favorite general chat quotes:

sad confused soul: Whats the better 2 hand weapon for a dwarf barb? I heard falchions are good, but axes might be better with dwarf enhancements.

WoW Gamer: You should make it a wf and go with greatsword. I have a lvl 80 in WoW so I know what I am talking about.

Its a permanently instated in my bio, a reminder why i have general, advice, and trade channel turned off.


--Also for whomever who was talking about people not removing their own curses. You need to start your raids/parties with a speach. Here is my own:

(blah blah, this is how the raid goes)
Clerics are not going to "top you off". Drink some pots, whip some wands, call it a day.
If you get cursed, poisoned, diseased?!?, blind then remove it. If you are to cheap to buy the pots/wands, then the clerics are to busy to heal you. If you fall under the to cheap category, please drop now or let me know who you are so we dont have to waste sp buffing you, healing you, and quite possibly raising your gimp sorry self.

(closeness to real speech determined on how tired/irritated I am at the time I give it)

in closing...

We had to figure out the game, why shouldn't they? Especially with how easy dungeon crawling became. I know, I know, you think I actually meant crawling. Dungeon Alert was supposed to slow us down... Yet we prevail! Long Live the Zerg!


(I know, zerging has nothing to do with the post, but I have made it my goal to try and incorporate in every post for now on!)

[shenthing]

because...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6610212795155043011#
and your healthcare is next!

*EDIT*ummm, its supposed to be mentors.

[Cedwin]

First off, comparing DDO to a board game doesn't do it justice. It's based on PnP D&D. Everyone I know who's played PnP has read the books, done their research, and talk about the game with other players.

Comparing DDO to a board game is like comparing rocket science to vibrational spectroscopy.

But I digress, some people play this game differently. I play it to build characters, and figure things out. Others may play it simply to swing swords and kill things.

My suggestion for new players who want to learn without figuring it out themselves, is to join a guild who enjoy teaching new players the ropes.

[Asialee]

Great discussion and let me add something that may help others better understand the "vet" community.

In over four years non-stop of DDO, we've seen our in-game friends get drunk, get married, get divorced, have ups, have downs, have children born, have loved ones pass away, get new jobs, lose jobs, have good times, have bad times, get angry (drama!), make up, grind quests, get banned (lol), delete their toons in anger, sometimes come back:), sometimes not come back:(, more quest grinding, get banned again (lol).

I've seen boys leave game to join our armed forces and come back as men. Guilds rise and fall. Servers merge. Turbine staff come and go. Four+ years of change. What a ride.

It is a very tight knit community that I am proud to be a part of:p well put.. I've been here since the level cap was at level 10 .. (I've seen your message so many times, to say the lest.) I truly miss those who have moved on to another game, over the years, this game to me, has changed for the good and the bad.. I for one would have liked it, had it never gone free to play, that's just my opinion on this matter.. I prefer to run with people i know only because I sux at giving instructions lol..

just woke up.. need caffeine :)

[Rav'n]

But not everyone that plays DDO has played DnD PnP. I have a guildie...one who posts frequently on the boards....that will tell you, he was walking thru Best Buy.... bored and walked down the game Aisle. He just picked up the box and thought..."Okay...this looks cool"

I'm betting a LOT of the F2P influx has never played DnD. They found there way here from many different channels. Sownloaded the game .. and... POW! Here they are.

But you're absolutely right. We all have different play styles. We all have different wants in the game. Find the style you like, find the people you like and then play.

But play on Argo, and when it's time to quit... give me all your stuff! :D

[Thucydides04]

The problem is when you were learning when stuff first came out, everyone else was learning too. You had a whole server full of people who had nothing else to do (until the next mod) but run quest/raids until they got it down pat. They were willing and expecting to fail until they got it right. Playing now is completely different. There are fewer people available needing the quest and those that do will stick to guild only because they dont want to slow down and lead some noob through. If new players tried to trial and error there way through a raid they would spend all there time on lfg and quickly quit.

I dont know what the solution to the problem is, but it is a problem. Having two classes of players isnt good for the game. Besides mmogs are supposed to be social and running with the same people over and over isnt very social.

That is incorrect, I started playing last January and my toons are in two guilds with people who are compotent and I like to play with, most of which have been around since the game came out. Neither of these guilds took me under their wing, instead in both instances, one of their officers joined one of my PUGs and liked the way I played and my personality and felt as though I would be a good fit for them. Nobody handed me anything, I leveled my toons the hard way and ground out gear the hard way and tinkered with my builds until I got them the way I like them. AFTER I had established myself as a somewhat compotent player was when things started to fall into place for me. The bottom line is you have to want it and be willing to make it happen on your own. This isn't a charity, if you want to be a powergamer then get to work, if you don't that is fine too as it is your enjoyment that comes first when you engage in recreational activities. But, don't expect those that have invest a lot of time and effort into their toons, knowledge and skill to just give it up because you want it.

[Khestral]

If a person wants to learn, if a person is actually trying to play the game and not cakewalk through, if someone will listen to what others say... then they are worth the time invested.

I've been in new player groups and have spent it grinding my teeth so hard I had a headache at the end of the run. I've been in new player groups where they listened and actually seemed to take something away from what I was trying to say. Thing is - those are few and far between it seems like.

I don't get long to play at night, so if I get a choice between being a teacher to "freshman" or laughing and cutting up with my friends... which makes more sense?

[totmacher]

i dunno about you guys, but i gotta invite to archmagi when i won the stone is drunk lottery

[Tabun]

I got into aok channel cause the guy who runs it is the nicest guy on the server I got into the am channel by begging I am not a good player but I hate alot of things new players and pugs included I like moustaches and tight wranglers Oh yeah and Bill.

[Khestral]

I got into aok channel cause the guy who runs it is the nicest guy on the server I got into the am channel by begging I am not a good player but I hate alot of things new players and pugs included I like moustaches and tight wranglers Oh yeah and Bill.

I think you implied Bill when you mentioned tight wranglers and moustaches...

[Jonny_D]

He forgot to mention he's huggable too!!
WHOA -EBN is back up and running?!??!?!?!?!?!!!!


I got into aok channel cause the guy who runs it is the nicest guy on the server I got into the am channel by begging I am not a good player but I hate alot of things new players and pugs included I like moustaches and tight wranglers Oh yeah and Bill.
I thought u liked tight moustache wranglers Im gonna have to change tactics:eek:

[Eladiun]

F2P takes all the heat because well anyone can join and some of those folks have a it's free what do I care attitude. Unfortunately paying separates that out... However, I certainly agree that there are good F2P player and bad P2P players. The game would like likely be dead if not for F2P so I embrace it... it's new it will eventually find balance.

[Asialee]

i dunno about you guys, but i gotta invite to archmagi when i won the stone is drunk lottery
what is this drunk lottery you speak of ??

[Asialee]

I got into aok channel cause the guy who runs it is the nicest guy on the server I got into the am channel by begging I am not a good player but I hate alot of things new players and pugs included I like moustaches and tight wranglers Oh yeah and Bill.
thought his name was Bob.. lol :D

[lugoman]

That is incorrect, I started playing last January and my toons are in two guilds with people who are compotent and I like to play with, most of which have been around since the game came out. Neither of these guilds took me under their wing, instead in both instances, one of their officers joined one of my PUGs and liked the way I played and my personality and felt as though I would be a good fit for them. Nobody handed me anything, I leveled my toons the hard way and ground out gear the hard way and tinkered with my builds until I got them the way I like them. AFTER I had established myself as a somewhat compotent player was when things started to fall into place for me. The bottom line is you have to want it and be willing to make it happen on your own. This isn't a charity, if you want to be a powergamer then get to work, if you don't that is fine too as it is your enjoyment that comes first when you engage in recreational activities. But, don't expect those that have invest a lot of time and effort into their toons, knowledge and skill to just give it up because you want it.

I didnt mean to imply that all members of large guilds are free loaders. I just meant it is much easier to skate through quest if you have easy access to players who can make them really easy.

[Galacticus]

After reading this thread, there's a few thought's I 'd like to add.

First off, I'm new. I have a capped toon on argo, but so what? I'm new, and always still learning at this game which, I admit, am becoming mildly addicted to. Only demonstrating my skill (or lack there of in many cases) shows how I play. Lv 20 means nothing. Part of the reason I'm becoming an addict is because of my first Shroud run. I'd love to mention names etc, but know that's not a great idea on the forums, but there was a guild run that only had 5-6 guildies running and was pugging the other spots. This was not my guild, but they agreed to show me the ropes which was much appreciated. I don't know if these people were or are considered vets, but they knew a hell of a lot more than I did, asked me about my gear, offered pointers and tactics, and I had a blast running with them.

Now, I can guess that some of the long term vets here are thinking, "great another F2Per who wants their hand held.....piker!" Not quite... While I appreciate this guild showing me the shroud and making me better for future runs, they didn't have to and don't owe me anything. Now that I'm beginning the grinding process for certain pieces of gear, I appreciate people who want to run fast and hard to get it done with minimal chance of failure. I'll admit, that I may get in the way of that goal. Vets don't owe me (as a F2P, now premium) anything either. Anytime a raid group feels I may not wipe the group and gives me a spot, all the better for me. Anytime I get declined, so be it. They'll be another one, or I can start my own...

I want to learn to get better and ideally help out other guildies or pugs in the future. While that may be my playstyle that's not everyone's. I guess my point is, play how you want to play. The people who want to learn will. The people who want to teach others are there. The people who zerg for their own reasons will do so for their own reasons. The people who won't listen, won't listen....All the play styles are there...play how you want and you'll find others who compliment your style. As a new player, all I can ask is for a respectful tone, if you're a player who decides to offer advice to me...I'll screw up, but be willing to learn more based on how the info is given.

When all is said and done, I'll listen to advice, and follow good advice (btw /death is not good advice, funny as hell, but not good advice....), but still play my way as I hope you'll play yours. If it so happens that the ways are complementary, hey, it might be fun to run a few quests with ya.

As a side note completely off topic, It'd be nice if there were a way to make F2P's read the forums once and awhile...too much good info, builds, advice, quest help, etc. that it should be required. So many things that so many will never see...

Ok, off my soapbox.

Well said and from a vet to a freshling...+1 rep

[HeavenlyCloud]

And The Mad God of Argonnessen said:

Let it be noobs so they can cause drama and keep me entertained.

That is the only reason why noobs exist.

[Galacticus]

THis thread needs to be closed and I'm just the right person to do it...

We've made our point! End of discussion!









Is Tarrant watching...



Flame on

[OpallNotten]

THis thread needs to be closed and I'm just the right person to do it...

We've made our point! End of discussion!









Is Tarrant watching...



Flame on


Seeing all the wonderful threads closed in the past week, I don't think Tarrant even goes home at the end of the day :) He just sits in his office hitting the refresh button.

Tarrant is ALWAYS watching:p


Opall

[Angelz_Fire]

WHOA -EBN is back up and running?!??!?!?!?!?!!!!


Yah John since coming back and relearning 90"% of the game again we figured it was time :)

[drac317]

Alrighty, the next Tot! Better?
great all we need is for someone else to rant on about nat gann

[Angelz_Fire]

You know, I agree with about everything said here. You obviously put alot of time into it and it makes alot of sense to me. Your time to play this game is valuable to you (and others such as you) and slowing down to mentor cuts into this time. In addition, these are your friends and guys that you hang with quite regularly so why bring an outsider in?

But you do also state that you open some raids to others and that is all I am talking about. I think if you and I would chat there would be alot more common ground than you would think. This forum format, and my inability to express all my thoughts well in writing, may mess up the point that you made for me. We can mentor at times, there is talent out there, and occasionally it is viable for vets to include new players in some of their raids.

On the other side of the coin, I must admit that new players would be at a great disadvantage in some content, especially the epic stuff, so would find no joy in chasing your shadow around. I also readily admit that there is a large group (size up to debate) of folks that are just "checking the game out" and are generally a waste of time to teach.

I will list some of my toons below, only because some of the respondents to this tread feel I am newly back to the game after a long hiatus.

One-Buck, Level 20 Cleric
Holybuck 18 Ranger 1 Rogue 1 Monk
Handsfulbuck, 18 Ranger, 1 Rogue
Various other toons not worth mentioning.

I claim no great ability but do not like to be thought of as "new to the game".


Hey again holy I know we've ran together lots and I may not be as seasoned as most *vets* these days due to coming off a long break, but have run with you many times and your always more then welcome to join my groups. I always put up lfms on my fvs for almost everything when I have room. I lead pugs for raids all the time and have found it an easy way to learn them, heck I'll even go so far as to pm players from well known guilds that want to join and let them know that we have party members that have never run it before, so they can choose if they still would like to join. I may end up using more personal debt this way (healers can be expensive) but it usually gets done in the end. I still have 3 raids that I havent' completed since coming back only because I spend time learning every inch of a quest.

[twix]

what is this drunk lottery you speak of ??

I believe he is talking about when i was 24/7 drunk and decided tot was a nice fit for archmagi. Yes i am stone yes i was drunk.

[Galacticus]

Seeing all the wonderful threads closed in the past week, I don't think Tarrant even goes home at the end of the day :) He just sits in his office hitting the refresh button.

Tarrant is ALWAYS watching:p


Opall


He's like Obama has his finger on the button ready to destroy

[Spisey]

Yah John since coming back and relearning 90"% of the game again we figured it was time :)


Best news ever! :D

Welcome back EBN!