A F2P viewpoint on the world of DDO and it's veteran players

[Hihiirokane]

As I have started playing this game only recently (been here now for about 3 weeks), I might state one or more things that are not entirely true for everyone. Then again, I think I already have a pretty clear view on the direction DDO is going when it comes to the introduction of the F2P, and combining the 'old' P2P players with the new F2P influx of players.

Basically, it's shocking to see the elitist response of a majority of 'old' players. I am aiming at the players who start posts like the 'We Need a Healer..." thread, among many other rants I've been seeing the past weeks on forums. If this would stay with forum banter I really couldn't care less. The scary thing is I also recognize it when I walk around in the game itself.

It might be good for the oldtimers to ask themselves a few questions before starting the rants... to each his own of course, do with it what you want.

1 When you started playing this game, did you make those Flawlesses on your first time through quests? Did you know where to go?

2 When you started playing this game, did you make your first character a superb, perfectly classed build? Did you know how to?

3 If you come from playing a different MMO, when you started playing this game, did you assume the structure of group composition would be at least more or less identical? (ie Tank + Healer + DPS, each taking their role to the fullest)

I'm guessing... no... I KNOW the majority will answer a No to the above.

Be lenient on the new players. Tell them what's the better option for the wrong choice they made. Help them. You liked it when someone did that for you when you started playing. Stop trying to create the elitist gap, it will only narrow your game world because you are excluding a whole lot of potentially good players who just need a better grasp of DDO's (rather more complicated in general) game mechanics.

To take myself as an example. I come from World of Warcraft, where I was raid leading for an entire guild. We had server 2nds and thirds. Now I'm sporting a level 11 Sorc in DDO with mediocre gear (whatever sweetness I can buy for a good price on AH, and quest reward gear) and I've already had a lot of fun leading TS on elite after getting to know it. Regardless of my fast learning curve, attention to not being a burden on the party and whatever else I can do to improve my character, NO SINGLE player will be able to see that on me when they see my name pop up on their invite list. Have I been a burden to groups? No. Matter of fact my CC and nuke bursts help out even ****** tanks who can't hold on to their mobs and see them running to other casters.

In short; you have no way of knowing how experienced a player is until you see them play the game. So play the game with them. Blacklist them if they suck, or help them if you want to. But pretty please, sugar on top, stop judging on silly appearances, really. GS items in midlevel raids are ridiculous. Asking new players to 'Be Self Sufficient' is total BS, it will only gimp their efforts of gearing up for the quests they want to do. Especially so when you CAN run these quests the easy way by just bringing the right classes into it.

[grodon9999]

Please don't mistake the people who post here for that of the average veteran player. 99% of the vets i've encountered in game have not been elitist jerks. internet message boards just bring out people's inner a-hole.

[GreenGurgler]

Welcome to DDO, we hope you like it and stay.
I would consider myself a vet player (been here near daily since March 06' with one 7 month break while waiting for DDO:EU) and a very good player, but not elite.
So based on that, I figured I could add my 2 cents to your posts where needed.

Also, I have recently performed my first TR (True Reincarnation) and have been PUG'ing it most of the way. Most of the time it has been with new players as you have described and my experiences with them have been as varied as yours has been with Vets.




Basically, it's shocking to see the elitist response of a majority of 'old' players. I am aiming at the players who start posts like the 'We Need a Healer..." thread, among many other rants I've been seeing the past weeks on forums. If this would stay with forum banter I really couldn't care less. The scary thing is I also recognize it when I walk around in the game itself.

It might be good for the oldtimers to ask themselves a few questions before starting the rants... to each his own of course, do with it what you want.

1 When you started playing this game, did you make those Flawlesses on your first time through quests? Did you know where to go?
Oh god no. Most of our first few builds were less than spectacular. Some more than others. Some were flat out flawed beyond repair others could, with a lot of player skill and gear, make it to end game (level 10 at that time).

2 When you started playing this game, did you make your first character a superb, perfectly classed build? Did you know how to?
Same as above. Most would honestly answer no. I came into it with a PnP mindset that I could make classes and builds I played in PnP and have them translate well into DDO... as you and others are finding out this is not the case.

3 If you come from playing a different MMO, when you started playing this game, did you assume the structure of group composition would be at least more or less identical? (ie Tank + Healer + DPS, each taking their role to the fullest)
I did not come from a different MMO but a different FRPG NWN. I did and most vets did, in the beginning, expect that party makeup. To this day, it is still the IDEAL party makeup. But vets have deep pockets and lots of resources and experience. Those items combined means often, we DON'T need that makeup anymore, but I bet it would still be preferred.

I'm guessing... no... I KNOW the majority will answer a No to the above.

Be lenient on the new players. Tell them what's the better option for the wrong choice they made. Help them. Many have tried: some players listen and respect where the vet is coming from. But more often then not, I have encountered the opposite. New players who have no time to listen to advice, think they know all there is at this point and are rude as hell when you try and offer any explanation. Not all, but a lot in my experience. You liked it when someone did that for you when you started playing. NO BODY did it when I started as we were ALL new players. For what its worth, we were our own trailblazers. This might explain a little bit why vets get rubbed the wrong way when a new player joins group and offers nothign except "share please" over and over. Respect that we did not have mentors to teach us and the game was a lot harder in the begining Stop trying to create the elitist gap, it will only narrow your game world because you are excluding a whole lot of potentially good players who just need a better grasp of DDO's (rather more complicated in general) game mechanics. I agree with this in general and always try and be polite and patient when in groups with new players. I know not all are this way.

To take myself as an example. I come from World of Warcraft, where I was raid leading for an entire guild. We had server 2nds and thirds. Now I'm sporting a level 11 Sorc in DDO with mediocre gear (whatever sweetness I can buy for a good price on AH, and quest reward gear) and I've already had a lot of fun leading TS on elite after getting to know it. Regardless of my fast learning curve, attention to not being a burden on the party and whatever else I can do to improve my character, NO SINGLE player will be able to see that on me when they see my name pop up on their invite list. Have I been a burden to groups? No. Matter of fact my CC and nuke bursts help out even ****** tanks who can't hold on to their mobs and see them running to other casters.

In short; you have no way of knowing how experienced a player is until you see them play the game. So play the game with them. Blacklist them if they suck, or help them if you want to. But pretty please, sugar on top, stop judging on silly appearances, really. GS items in midlevel raids are ridiculous (youd use em if you had too, thats all I can say to that ;) but they shouldn't be required). Asking new players to 'Be Self Sufficient' is total BS, it will only gimp their efforts of gearing up for the quests they want to do. I do have to disagree with this especially if it is stated UP FRONT in the LFM. If you are new and cant afford to be self sufficient and the party your eying says BYOH, please don't join the group. It is a different matter if nothing is said up front and the new player is berated or mocked once the quest is underway for not being self sufficient. And just FYI, this has always been an issue, even when the world was new. You always had some players screaming the be self sufficient mantra. I know in my groups, I only state BYOH or Be SS if we have spent a long time waiting for that healer and don't wish to waste anymore time. I let the party know that we will e running w/out a healer in advance. Its not always worth the time to sit and wait and wait and wait for a healer. Especially if its a quest the Vet knows like the back his hand and can reasonably guess the true need in a quest (not all quests really need these classes) Especially so when you CAN run these quests the easy way by just bringing the right classes into it. Again, only if it doesn't mean waiting 1/2 hour, as the party leader, why should we waste that much of our game time to bring a babby-sitter? If I can fill the party in 5-10 min with the optimal classes, I will. But beyond that, I usually could have run the quest multiple times while waiting for that once class (usually).

Also, please understand this is a two way street. Many new players are just flat out RUDE as much as the vets. Many do not want to hear you tell them things you have learned over years of play (WF can make awesome sorcs, not every WF is a 12yr old, 1 level rogue splash CAN be every bit as good as a pure rogue, etc...) these are all things I have tried to explain to new players only to have them argue with me and state I don't know what I am talking about.

I TR'd as a WF sorc and have had advice from the best sorcs on the server who have played dozens of casters to cap and so have a lot of valid advice. I have zero doubt that he is as powerful as a caster can be at any race and more durable than anything else. Yet just the other day I joined a pug led and populated by new players who were talking smack about WF being a kids race and basically dissing my sorc without even playing with me. By the end of the quest, they had seen the light. We exchanged (politely) what they had experienced previously vs what they experienced with me. In the end, they were very happy to have me along.

So us Vets will do our part to try and be more patient and clear up front what is to be expected. I always tell people when they join my groups what were doing and how. I do it before we start and let them know if they don't like it they are free to leave. I do it politely but clearly not to be elitist but so they can make an informed choice on their part before we start.

But you newer players need to spread the word that all vets are not elitist asses and in fact usually DO know what they are talking about. Suggest to them that they DO take advice.

It really is a two way street. You cannot lay this all at the feet of the vets.

[hwnderr0r]

To me, this is just like any other situation in life. You're going to have a few people who are complete elitists, who condescend when they talk to you and pretend that you're a moron.

Then again, I've run across more nice people while playing, and on the forums, than negative. I typically ignore the posts of the rude ones.

So far, my experience has been great, and I hope OP's gets better. Just don't let the few ruin it for you. :)

[Riggs]

Having leveled up a few new builds, and a couple TRs in recent times - I should point out something on the other side of the coin too.

Many, many, many new players are not just new - but incredibly stupid. Lazy. Selfish.

And many, even after reaching level 8, 10,15 or even capping out maybe even TRing - dont know basic things about the game, or their characters, or how many standard things work - because they dont actually pay attention to what is going on. People will generally be accomodating at lower levels - since many people are new at level 4. but when someone, or many someones, are acting like they are still new to the game at level 12 and 15 say - I mean what where they doing for those levels? Watching TV on the side?

Many people do not read the lfm before joining it as said. "Bring your own healing" - and then die 2 steps into a quest because they dont. it is not BS to ask people to be self sufficent - it is a message "The person posting this lfm is not new, and likely is experienced, well geared, and will be drinking healing potions rather than waiting for a cleric - and they are expecting you to do so as well if you choose to join." Joining such groups and then NOT doing what the lfm says simply shows that the person joining thinks they can be lazy and get away with not actually contributing - or cant read english, or like many - does not even read lfms and just clicks on anything in their level (or not in their level), and THEN starts begging for help getting there or being healed.

"Know where it is zerging/running fast" Join group and the first words are 'Where is the quest'? Really? Were the 5 words in the lfm that hard to read? or, 'Share'..not 'would you please share', just one word - Share - demand - when the only way to get into a lot of the quests is to actually talk to the person that gives it and they teleport you there anyway - so by telling you to share I am saying not only I dont know where it is - but I am too lazy to type out an entire sentence and maybe you know - be polite - which most likely means they are also too lazy to actually contribute to the quest as well.

Many, or even most - new casters dont just make the same mistakes a first timer does - say try to fireball everything. But when confronted with evidence that the tactic is not only not working - but they keep getting beat up and/or dying because of it - ignore the reality in front of them and beg for heals while running like mad after dropping fireballs. Room after room after room, even after gentle suggestions like "Maybe you could try x". Instead of say useful spells that would stop a room full of monsters from chasing them like ...web. Or casting the one spell that is universally one of the best spells in the game - haste. Dont cast haste? (as the vast majority of new casters do not), dont beg for heals either, and dont beg for help killing the room full of monsters agroed by fireballing everything (and not killing them), and wondering why they are dying as a result. Room after room after room.

Or a high level caster that keeps stacking firewalls right on top of my crit firewalls - not once, not twice, but over and over again, after being told repeatedly - to stop as firewalls do not stack and casting one negates the one below it. This person was level 18 - and now TR but I doubt has gotten much better.

I could go on.

The point is not to bash the OP. But to point out that since the free to play model while bringing new players, new revenue, and new life to the game - has also brought a vast amount of bad players as well that do not invest any brainpower into the game because it is free.

Pick up groups are extremely painful nowadays - and 90% of the time - soloing right up to level 10+ is far easier than most groups - not just because of scaling - but because many players not only do not add anything to the group - they actually take away, and make the quest twice as long and twice as hard by being in it.

'Elite' players ranting are sometimes just jerks and also ignorant too granted. And any decent player that is begging for a healer in a level 8 quest, or posting lfms saying 'you need GS to join' is not actually a good player - they just think they are.

And it is also pretty much a waste of time to post here about people in game because the type of players I described above will not be reading the forums anyway. Or in game tips, or anything about the game at all really.

So yes people might come off as jerks and elitist - but it needs saying that yes, you cannot see what kind of player someone is simply by the name (actually there are many that DO - like say "Hey IM drizzzzzzt Do'orden"), or class (and again - a 3/3/3 barb/cleric/ sorc is obviously not paying attention to the game) - the fact of the matter is that 50% of the time say - any pug you accept is going to not just not be useful, but worse than not filling that spot at all many times.

There are plently of good new players, and by good I mean - people that ask questions, LISTEN to answers and actually think. Pay attention to the game and actually know by level 8 or 10 that yes, you DO need to talk to the quest giver to advance it to the next part....

..but you are not going to know if someone is good until you play with them, and a large % of new players are not good. Plain and simple. So people filter.

[spyder7723]

A couple points. That thread you are referring to was not elitest vets calling you a noob. Was much more to the tune of "hey new guy, if you run quests at level and use good group tactics you don't have to sit around all day waiting to find a healer". Sure, there was some less than friendly comments posted but the majority were not 'elitest vets'.

Second point. There is no acceptable reason NOT to be somewhat self sufficient. Once you get out of the harbor you should have enough gold to have some potions. I don't mean a stack of 100 cure serious wounds, but some resist acid/fire, remove curse, those type of potions. If a player can't be bothered to swig a resist acid to mitigate melfs acid arrow damage, how can you expect the cleric or wizard to chug potions to keep his/her spell points up? The more spells the cleric has to cast on individuals for things like remove curse/disease (or to heal the damage that you could of prevented just by chugging a pot) the less spell points that cleric has for blade barriers or combat healing.


Edited to add: I myself AM a new player, been playing only a few months with limited time to play the game, taken me since late october to reach level 15 on my first, and only character. I was more or less self sufficient even in the lower levels by A:not blowing all my cash on a new weapon every level. B:breakables. I still haven't had to buy a single resist or protection potion simply by taking two seconds to smash the barrel as I walk by. It really is that easy.

[MrCow]

When you started playing this game, did you make those Flawlesses on your first time through quests? Did you know where to go?

Of course not, and I still have plenty of runs that have things I consider flaws when I run them. ;)


When you started playing this game, did you make your first character a superb, perfectly classed build? Did you know how to?

This one is interesting for me to answer as my first character was a Warforged Sorcerer, back when Warforged were low-man on the totem and the level cap was 10. In those days it wasn't really optimal nor perceived as great. Yet, now-a-days, it is considered one of the staples.


If you come from playing a different MMO, when you started playing this game, did you assume the structure of group composition would be at least more or less identical? (ie Tank + Healer + DPS, each taking their role to the fullest)

I did as I still do when I form a group (in DDO and past online games). I take whomever and revel in the chaos.

For instance, one of my more fond grouping memories was still a group of 5 rogues and me as an arcane spreading glitterdust everywhere. It was very unconventional (and still is unconventional) but it also did exceptionally well, even if I did break the conventional group composition.

There are also the times where you get groups that seemingly don't mesh together well and part of the joy of those is making do with what you have.

[theb]

I am a new player. There are some things that only new players do wrong, not that all do it wrong.

I carry potions/wands, or clickies or both of curing blindness, curse, disease, hp, fear, paralysis, the elements, etc. as well as items of waterbreathing and a cloak of acid resist in particular since one often needs protection from acid when hit by an acid arrow. This is all stuff I picked up leveling from 1-12 or bought cheap, any player without this gear by my level is stupidly or selfishly selling their resist items and hoarding their money or using it on permanent items rather than consumables that would most help the group.

Did I mention I am a healer? I can use mana to fix all of this stuff, but not needing it to fix those maladies is the equivalent of expanding my mana pool. Not only is any melee without this stuff weakening the group, they are endangering themselves by depending on the healer to take care of them. That's crazy!

I chose to play a healer because it would be easier to do as a first character: I am not dependent on my gear like a rogue, armor like a tank, weapons like a dps, or even spell penetration/overcoming resistances like an offensive caster. If other players want to make it harder on themselves that's fine. If they want to make it harder on me, that's not fine.

The rogue who had to ask where the boxes were so she wouldn't waste a skill boost searching in the wrong place should have spent hours looking through the brokers and AH if she wanted to play a rogue as her first character, or only done quests below her level. When she blew a box that became even more painfully obvious.

The fool who wouldn't listen when he was told not to go through the door to the ice mephit room in the Temple of Vol should have listened to people who had done the level before. It was NOT acceptable to say "It's OK, I have cold resist" (and then die from a blade trap). It's a matter of arrogance that's the problem: arrogance, selfishness, and stupidity.

The wizard who somehow got 0 out of 250 kills on an undead quest at level 9 was absolutely inexcusably gimped and inept. Did I mention that there was only one death that quest? Can you guess who it was?

I don't think I'm being elitist.

[Jasimine]

Hey I am a new player as well and to the OP, let me say this. If you think the vets here were being elitists in threads like the one about needing a healer then you got some serious time to put in on this game still. Thats far from being elitist. The comments in that thread were, for the most part, about simple things people can do to be self sufficiant. And someone expecting players to be self sufficiant in THEIR group that THEY form is not elitist, it is their choice. Heck even I do it at times on my characters. It is not to weed out new players but because I don't always want to wait for 2 hours for a cleric to join up. Particularly in quests that I know inside and out and know we will be fine.

No, elitism is actually the same as not knowing what you are talking about at all and thinking you are better than everyone else at the same time.

Stop and listen to what the vets have to say, take their advice, and grow as a player. Trust me, they have every right to be frustrated with alot of the new player base. Even I get frustrated with the new player base and I am part of it!

[Beld]

like game xyz either....we play BECAUSE it is not like game xyz, and I don't really want to spend my game time listening to complaints about the gameplay, but that's just me.

Also, as you alluded to, this game doesn't pigeonhole everyone into a specific role, therefore you might have a group that consists of 2 clerics, 2 rangers, a bard and a rogue where the bard is filling the tanking role, one of the rangers is off healing, the clerics are just as competent as melee as they are healers and the rogue is just getting crazy kill counts by backstabbing everything (and just fyi, rogues are DPS most times, but with UMD can be healer and have also seen them tank).

I have played with some great new players and it was a joy, and I have played with some real 'winners' who made my game experience leave me feeling unfulfilled.

Point is, as was already stated, it's a two way street, and if I am running a quest at lvl 12+ and you are not 'self-sufficient' in the least (ran a quest a few days ago with a couple of ppl who A) didn't listen and B) didn't have ONE SINGLE HEALING POTION between them) then you may need to rethink your play strategy.

I actually enjoy the new players, they make me remember how much fun it was when I was new and everything was cool and I didn't know what was around the next corner, which is really enjoyable....but after watching a group wipe continuously and then offering a little advice (not trying to spoil anything, but just making some suggestions to make the run succesful) and being told I don't know what I am talking about gets frustrating.

In conclusion (I know, rambling/shambling post, but it's my 40th birthday, so I have some leeway today right......RIGHT??) most vets enjoy the new players and will help almost anyone, if they ask or if they listen, but it is very frustrating to beat your head against a wall for 2 hours when you could have solo'd said content in about 1/3 that time :)

[Shishizaru]

1) Most players in general (including the veterans I've run across) won't be to harsh on you if you die in a quest. Unless you are running of on your own or otherwise playing very stupidly, stuff happens (and people die because of it). If you're a new player running Xorian Cipher for the first time and you die while trying (but failing) to dodge your friendly neighborhood orb, I don't think anyone is going to give you a hard time. If they do, they're probably not the kind of people you'd like to group with in the future...

2) Most people really don't care about how perfect your build is. If you have a decent HP pool and are smart enough to have Fortification by the levels you can (reasonably) obtain it, they'll be fine with you. People like to complain, so you will read a lot of threads about the 6 CON Elf getting killed over and over again since they had no Fort. Imagine the forums if people posted every time they grouped with someone with 16 CON and Heavy Fort? ^^

3) Er...nothing really to say about this. Most groups (vets or not) will look for a healer. The exception is the lower level quests, where the length of the quests allows you to more or less barrel through with the first 5 people who apply.

About self-sufficiency:

In my opinion, anyone who puts 0 effort into self-sufficiency deserves to be shunned. I cannot imagine what kind of player it would take to think "I am going to sell all of my Cure pots, resist pots, and wands because casters and healers can fix me up." If you so much as collect Cure Light Wounds pots, then you at least put SOME effort into it.

I, personally, hate needing someone to babysit me (although I feel like it happens sometimes). I try to pack healing and resists to fix myself up between fights, so the healer can focus on keeping me up during fights. I also spent a good deal of time scouring the Brokers and AH to find clickies of things I find important. I carry clickies for every Resist, every Protection, Poison, Blindness, Curse and a number of false HP buffs (False Life, Aid, etc). I don't expect someone fresh out of Korthos to be packing the same, which is half the reason I got the clickies in the first place. If you strike me as a new player just trying your best to help out, I'd be happy to unblind you or neutralize your poison. My hope is that once you see that anyone can pick up clickes or pots to fix these ailments, you'll do the same once your finances allow for it.

If, however, I join YOUR LFM for a quest on ELITE, I'll be a little more "elitist." If 5 seconds into Tempest Spine, you yell for Fire Resist (as a Ranger), I'm probably going to ignore you. Half because you're yelling as if you deserve something, second because you can easily cast it yourself. If you're new to the Ranger class and don't know how important Resist Energy is, that's fine. A lot of people (especially the Arcanes) expect there are some party members who will need resists. But once the new player learns how strong Resists can be, they'll probably load the spell themselves. Sure beats you demanding Fire Resists on his Ranger.

5 minutes later, if you yell that you're blind, I'll probably ignore you again. You haven't exactly established much credibility with me, so I probably won't care. If you hadn't demanded resists earlier, I'd probably be fine getting rid of your Blindness. Heck, a lot of new players don't even know what Blindness is until they get hit by it.

In short, if you're not running around all arrogant and haughty, I'll probably help you out as best I can. If you've already stated you're new (and/or asking questions to better understand the quest), I'll pay special attention to see if you're falling behind or getting hit by ailments you didn't know existed. After all, DDO is a GAME. People play it to have fun. Working together for a common goal fits into my definition of "fun." If someone's giving you **** because you don't understand every little detail about the game, I start to question whether they're really having fun or not. Seems much more like a chore to me...

[Beld]

1) 5 minutes later, if you yell that you're blind, I'll probably ignore you again. You haven't exactly established much credibility with me, so I probably won't care. If you hadn't demanded resists earlier, I'd probably be fine getting rid of your Blindness. Heck, a lot of new players don't even know what Blindness is until they get hit by it.

Blindness is kinda weaksauce now tho cause it and feeblemind wear off......remember when they were permanent until cured or shrine :)

[Murderface]

As I have started playing this game only recently (been here now for about 3 weeks), I might state one or more things that are not entirely true for everyone. Then again, I think I already have a pretty clear view on the direction DDO is going when it comes to the introduction of the F2P, and combining the 'old' P2P players with the new F2P influx of players.

Basically, it's shocking to see the elitist response of a majority of 'old' players. I am aiming at the players who start posts like the 'We Need a Healer..." thread, among many other rants I've been seeing the past weeks on forums. If this would stay with forum banter I really couldn't care less. The scary thing is I also recognize it when I walk around in the game itself.

It might be good for the oldtimers to ask themselves a few questions before starting the rants... to each his own of course, do with it what you want.

1 When you started playing this game, did you make those Flawlesses on your first time through quests? Did you know where to go?

2 When you started playing this game, did you make your first character a superb, perfectly classed build? Did you know how to?

3 If you come from playing a different MMO, when you started playing this game, did you assume the structure of group composition would be at least more or less identical? (ie Tank + Healer + DPS, each taking their role to the fullest)

I'm guessing... no... I KNOW the majority will answer a No to the above.

Be lenient on the new players. Tell them what's the better option for the wrong choice they made. Help them. You liked it when someone did that for you when you started playing. Stop trying to create the elitist gap, it will only narrow your game world because you are excluding a whole lot of potentially good players who just need a better grasp of DDO's (rather more complicated in general) game mechanics.

To take myself as an example. I come from World of Warcraft, where I was raid leading for an entire guild. We had server 2nds and thirds. Now I'm sporting a level 11 Sorc in DDO with mediocre gear (whatever sweetness I can buy for a good price on AH, and quest reward gear) and I've already had a lot of fun leading TS on elite after getting to know it. Regardless of my fast learning curve, attention to not being a burden on the party and whatever else I can do to improve my character, NO SINGLE player will be able to see that on me when they see my name pop up on their invite list. Have I been a burden to groups? No. Matter of fact my CC and nuke bursts help out even ****** tanks who can't hold on to their mobs and see them running to other casters.

In short; you have no way of knowing how experienced a player is until you see them play the game. So play the game with them. Blacklist them if they suck, or help them if you want to. But pretty please, sugar on top, stop judging on silly appearances, really. GS items in midlevel raids are ridiculous. Asking new players to 'Be Self Sufficient' is total BS, it will only gimp their efforts of gearing up for the quests they want to do. Especially so when you CAN run these quests the easy way by just bringing the right classes into it.

actually my first character had prereq for the prc weapons master
hmm had ce ww spring dodge mobility all the good stuff
did very well switching between defense and offense

i never came from another mmo the only rpg i played previously that was close was semi persistent world in nwn 1.
which was entirely a different type of group structure usualy fighters or arcane archers heh perm haste boosts and heal pots not cure but heal so there really was no bards or clerics or fs or casters just a bunch of hack and slash goodness. there was no gosh i need to wait for a clr goin on or bard or caster nothing at all like that
just a bunch of people who were trying to make the biggest dps characters they could
red dragon disciple/weapon master fighter bard or weapon master rogue or arcane archer lol all had 2wf all had 90% immunity to all damage types. heh pvp matches would last 10 to 20 minutes for just one kill
when i first started playing was mar 1 06 and people played very fast
first time in spine i got lost in the no map parts no one cared they just kept running so basically sink or swim just as it is now
as for take it easy on noobs well if they listen i dont mind playing with new people in fact i invited a new person into the guild i am or rather requested a invite for them. today however ran into some guy thru a von 5 elite and he died almost right away dont know how must went lava diving. anyways so he cost us 10% no biggie right? well he then released we started over because -20% right off the bat was pretty aggravating in the first 10 minutes. so then we reform and i actualy requested a boot heh guess im a jerk. anyways leader was nice he was like he is new lets give him a second chance heh
then he jumps on the lvr tower past the electric traps right before the end and he slashed death we had no choice but to boot him. he actualy slashed death while alive!!!!!!!!!
thats not all leader thought hey give a friend a chance to fill the spot little did he know that he was 1 lvl too high so then we got the 25% reduction had a couple peope who got a power lvl penalty therefor had a drop and the others just grin and took it on the chin

thats what happens when your too nice to people who are just griefing regardless if it was intentional or not or if there new or not there is a part of the game called listen to what you are told and if you dont understand speak up

if i were the leader the first time he recalled i would have booted him. i dont mind teaching newbies but if there gonna run amuck amuck amuck then im not gonna be a happy camper. the guy was even told do not recal instead this time he slashed death i in return slashed squelched lol sorry but i guess im just a jerk :P

ive been playing with alot of new players who actualy listen and keep up with the group and they been playing less then a month.
theres a difference between being new and just being a newsance
by the way those new guys that i do like to play with enjoy my groups cuz i lvl them up fast and easy being on a double tr i do nothing but grind now
ive always been awesome at this game sorry to say i been playing dnd pc games pnp in the 70s when i was a youngin lol
heck i even play dnd on the odyssey so i had alot of dnd knowledge that has always given me the superior edge in building characters
not to mention my sf skills :P

[GreenGurgler]

I actually enjoy the new players, they make me remember how much fun it was when I was new and everything was cool and I didn't know what was around the next corner, which is really enjoyable....but after watching a group wipe continuously and then offering a little advice (not trying to spoil anything, but just making some suggestions to make the run succesful) and being told I don't know what I am talking about gets frustrating.

Oh god yeah, I agree. In a way, its like watching your kids on Christmas morning. The excitement, the wonder, the unknown. It takes me back to a day when I thought I was RICH if I had 500plat!!!

Oh, and that second part... yeah been there done that, that is when things go from being fun/funny to just down right frustrating. Why bother.

Lastly, I mean this in the nicest possible way: **** Murderface, I think you might have some good points in there but it is just unreadable. No caps, no punctuation, at least there are some spaces here and there. Please reconsider cleaning it up and making it easier to read. ;)
Sorry for nit picking, I'm actually not an English teacher but that wall of text is blunt.

[Murderface]

Oh god yeah, I agree. In a way, its like watching your kids on Christmas morning. The excitement, the wonder, the unknown. It takes me back to a day when I thought I was RICH if I had 500plat!!!

Oh, and that second part... yeah been there done that, that is when things go from being fun/funny to just down right frustrating. Why bother.

Lastly, I mean this in the nicest possible way: **** Murderface, I think you might have some good points in there but it is just unreadable. No caps, no punctuation, at least there are some spaces here and there. Please reconsider cleaning it up and making it easier to read. ;)
Sorry for nit picking, I'm actually not an English teacher but that wall of text is blunt.

im going to delete my forum acount heh

[Hihiirokane]

Great so see all this response, let me put that up front!

In response to people saying I'm expecting a lot of the vets, not at all, (or put differently: not particularly MORE from them than from anyone else) and I totally agree with people being tired of Lazy Selfish and utterly Stupid players. I did also say (quote) Blacklist them if they suck, or help them if you want to. (unquote)

Not forcing anyone into anything at all - just trying to convey a major thought about how the vets can find as many fun players amongst the F2Pers as anywhere else.

Mind you, I'm the first to kick people from MY group when I see them slacking around. I've seen greed, stupidity, laziness and everything else to a sickening degree as well in raids elsewhere ;)

Oh and my first post might have been a BIT down-ish, but I'm definitely having fun round here, and also meet a lot of people (and although I never ask, I'm absolutely certain a good bunch of them are vets) that are going to stay in the friends list forever. No worries there!

[Shishizaru]

Blindness is kinda weaksauce now tho cause it and feeblemind wear off......remember when they were permanent until cured or shrine :)

Yeah, I do actually haha. I was so thankful I decided to buy a couple Remove Blindness pots after reading the forums. The first time I got hit by Blindness I was like "*** laptop, don't crash on me!" But my toolbars were still up and numbers were still flashing by. I still wouldn't want to sit through the whole duration of the spell without being able to see didly, and I keep forgetting to put my Blindness Ward goggles back on. XD

I also remember when I dreaded getting hit by Curse because it was permanent too. They changed it before I even so much as saw a Remove Curse clicky, but I grabbed one mostly because my friend. She's much greener in terms of quest preparation and was being plagued by Mummy Rot.

[Hihiirokane]

Riggs btw,

I can paste your entire post, but no need.

You're absolutely 100% right. Every word of every sentence.

And happy b'day Beld :D

[asphodeli]

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

While we applaud the F2P model to bring in new blood, an unfortunate side-effect is the amount of stupidity that comes with it.

There are some of the vets who are elitist, but most of them should be quite accommodating to new players. However, given that, we expect new players to generally not act like jerks or not reading/listening to party chat.

PS: My faith in humanity isn't really good at this rate should we have zombies in the real world.

[Cyr]

OP, the answers to your questions are no, no, no. Very few make top notch builds first time out of the gate in DDO, one of the main issues is the difference between DDO and pnp for this. Things in pnp which work well sometimes do not translate to DDO.

Now, how did I learn better? People told me. They pointed things out and I learned on my own of course also. If people didn't do this then some people will never learn. Most on these forums or in game are not being jerks when they comment about that 8 con rogue. They are doing that player a favor. Sure his current toon may suck until he LR, GR, or TR's them, but he's less likely to make that mistake again.

It's not about 'elitists'. It never is. It's about people who have experience passing that experience on. Some are perpetually self conscious and can not take any advice given as anything but a direct attack. To those everyone is an elitist, because they will always be behind the curve never taking advice. Some insist they know better even when legions of players will tell them otherwise. Perhaps the OP fits into this mold? Or maybe the OP is just a little to quick on the draw and is misfiring. I say this because the final part of the OP's post talks about being self sufficient is BS. It is far from impossible, in fact it is expected thing. It's very simple, even perfect class makeup does not relieve the need for some self sufficiency due to times when you are away from healers, healers are dead, or healers are bad players/new players. The latter happens all the time while leveling. If you don't blow all your plat on the AH buying junk then you will be fine on consumables.

[IgorUnchained]

This was my first MMO AND first keyboard game. I had a tough learning curve just to move around town.

I didnt have my graphics set up correctly (nor did I know how to) so I lagged for a LONG TIME (over a year) very badly.

I didnt join the game with friends, so I learned the game by myself (and not well ;) )

NOONE waited for me....there wasnt a Korthos Island or a casual setting....there werent a million new players to learn with. Dungeon scaling wouldnt be implemented for years and when you died you lost xp. I tipped clerics before I could even afford my own cure mod wand and I followed whatever directions I was given (leading to multiple instances of griefing.

Then...on my THIRD rolled toon, I met a guy who gave me a helmet and a few words of advice. He walked me a through dungeons and taught me some basics (like +1 dex boots dont stack with +1 Dex gloves...on my THIRD toon!). That made all the difference to me. I wouldnt have made it past those first 4 months if it wasnt for him (Myprecious if you are Old School Argo....name not changed to protect the guilty and awesome)....now I have been playing this game for well over 3 years and I help newbs NIGHTLY. I am currently playing a level 5 on Argo and a level 2 on Cannith, and I cant tell you how much PMed advice I give and how much gear I give to people on a daily basis. I dont do it because Im a nice guy, I dont do it to score points on the forum or otherwise, I do it because I wouldnt be playing this game if someone hadnt done it for me. Plain and simple.

[Visty]

so you made a thread ranting about the ranting in another thread where you thought a vet would be ranting even though its the noob who was ranting cause the vets are always ranting about what that other thread was ranting about?

also what was said already, 2 way street, etc. no need to repeat that all

[KillEveryone]

I joined when DDO went F2P and still consider myself new because I understand one class very well, a few classes I mostly understand, and any other I haven't played much I don't fully understand but am still learning.

I rolled a cleric first because of self healing when I was learning the mechanics of the game. I rerolled my cleric 7 times. I took a break from her after I rolled the 7th time because I was poor all the time. People didn't top off between fights. I took the time to collect the CLW pots and copper from broken barrels but others did not. I rolled my bard so I could make some money. She is a lot of fun still and will TR after I make a few pieces of GS. The only GS item I needed was a HP item even though I started with a 17 con, 1 human adaptability CON enhancement, +2 con tome, have a GFL belt, a +6 con item, toughness feat with all racial toughness enhancements and the Minos helm(sitting a 447 hp...pretty good for a pure bard.) The rest of the GS items is just gravy.

I have played my cleric up to lvl 8 now and still notice people don't bother grabbing stuff from barrels. I don't need to collect any of that stuff now since I purchase everything with my bard and have plat comming in from running higher lvl content so I leave that stuff for others and suggest to those that complain about being poor to grab all those scraps because that is how I started. It all adds up. Also, just because I have a sugar bard doesn't doesn't mean I should top everyone off between fights with my purchased wands. I don't mind healing during a fight, that is something I expect to do. I don't mind using my wands to remove curse/disease/etc...I kind of expect that and I don't load those spells because I also use my SP for other spells that help kill stuff faster so that people don't take much damage and also so that new people understand that a cleric isn't just to heal. I don't expect everyone to have every type of resist or cure item on them, it can get expensive. I do expect people to at least have some kind of self healing though.

People also don't always read my LFM's. I have been on my fighter with "BYOH, shrotmanning, a rogue to disable and good to go." People have joined and were upset because we went in after we got a rogue and no cleric. I had stated when they joined what BYOH meant and they said they understood. Other times they didn't have healing when we started. If I tell you to bring your own heals then you need to be self sufficient. Don't ask for a share either after I tell you that the quest giver is next to the quest entrance or the giver sends you to the quest. Don't ask what quest we are doing. It is stated in the LFM. Read my LFM. Read my LFM. I can't say it enough...Read my LFM. I'm so tired of people not reading my LFM. It is spelled out. The difficulty is listed. Don't go in on normal when I listed as hard or elite. Read my LFM. Don't suggest we go to another quest instead of what I listed, what I listed is what we are going to do. Read my LFM. Maybe after we get done with what I listed I'll go do that quest but I posted this LFM and this is what we are going to do. READ MY LFM! READ MY LFM! **** IT...READ MY F&*(!# LFM!!!!!!!!!

Then there are the ones that use CON as a dump stat. I don't understand this at all. Every game out there where you have a possibility of adding to your health, I'm fairly certain people would take that option. More hp = bigger buffer between life and death. I see the 8 CON character dying all the time and they die quickly. A lot of them also grab aggro before someone else does. I have tried to explain that you really need to look at your stat distrubution and maybe rethink your priorities on your character. They have added points into CHA so they could have a better haggle or put 2 points into every stat so they wouldn't have any negative modifiers to their skills. I can understand not wanting to have any negative modifiers, I thought that way at first but I understand what vets had told me and I applied that knowledge and try to share what vets have passed to me. I still apply what vets tell me, though sometimes I get several different points of view and I have to sift through all that so my head doesn't explode.

I have grouped with some good new people. They have listened and applied the knowledge that they were given. They have rerolled their character and can recognize if they gimped themselves and have talked about rerolling...again. They also read my LFM. Getting my characters up to lvl 12 can be sometimes daunting when I pug up a group because you don't know what you are going to get. Usually lvl 10-12 is the break point between those that don't read my lfm, ask for share, do not carry any type of resist/heal/etc...and those that do(you still get some after 12 but it isn't as frequent.) I was fresh off the boat so I do understand. I'm not going to critisize you for dying because we all die. If you zerg and die I'll suggest that your play style is not condusive to completion of this quest and that group strategy my be in order, and if you continue to zerg and die, I'll leave your stone in my backpack until I'm ready to go to the shrine myself. I won't heal you if I'm on my cleric and you do this kind of stupid play because I'm there for the party, not one person.

The greatest majority of what I know and and understand about this game came from the vets. Some things I had to try for myself to fully understand, but that is how I learn. I still ask stuff on the forums, and my very knowledgeable guild leader, because I don't understand everything, but what I do understand I understand very well. Not all vets are elitist jerks. There may be a few but those that I have run with have been helpful. They have been good at sharing their knowledge because they want you to be able to have fun. A gimped character isn't much fun, it becomes work and at some point, you may not be able to run any content with that character.

[vVAnjilaVv]

1 When you started playing this game, did you make those Flawlesses on your first time through quests? Well, back in the day we didn't have flawless bonuses to xp, our bonus was not to die so we didn't get hit with the XP loss to character. That being said...heck no, I still do stuff almost every quest that irks the heck out of me...lol
Did you know where to go? Pshhhh...who wants to know where they are going, that's no fun, I take my time leveling a new character to 20 so when I start on an alt I have forgotten some stuff :D

2 When you started playing this game, did you make your first character a superb, perfectly classed build? Did you know how to? Uhmm....pretty darn close...it's called an instruction manual and common sense. Yes I actually looked for, found, downloaded, printed and read the 40+ page manual that was available at the time, and made good use of the forums.....even tho troll attacks and flames were quite common.

3 If you come from playing a different MMO, when you started playing this game, did you assume the structure of group composition would be at least more or less identical? (ie Tank + Healer + DPS, each taking their role to the fullest) This was my first MMO tho I had played many console rpg's...so honestly I didn't know what to expect from group play....a lot of times I was dissapointed which lead to a lot of solo play....and other times I had a lot of fun and still do.



All that being said, the best advice I can give to newer players is read and learn, and solo a fair bit, u get to take things at ur pace and really learn the game....group tho too, it's an important aspect of the game.....but stay at a pace that's comfortable...it's more important than keeping up with the crowd.....because basically the crowd crashes into a brick wall....rubs the bump on thier head and keeps asking where the new content is...while u gracefully enter endgame.

[SolarDawning]

Have I been a burden to groups? No. Matter of fact my CC and nuke bursts help out even ****** tanks who can't hold on to their mobs and see them running to other casters.


OP, not to rag on you, but I'd like to point out that this doesn't come across as being very knowledgeable about DDO's mechanics. "tanking" in this game, aside from a very few specific locations which can be done by anyone with good damage output and a HP total (Sulu, Horoth) does not exist.

Yeah, I said it. There is a very limited to non-existent tanking role in this game, with the sole exception of a couple raids, which do not require someone specifically specced or built to do so.

And here you insult players for not holding aggro on "their mobs"? This just isn't good form. Aggro control is not a melee's job. Their job is to hit things until it dies. If you're getting aggro, it's up to you to deal with it in an effective way.

Now that that's over with, welcome to the game, have fun. =)