What your melee FvS SHOULD look like...IMO :)

[Ssmooth]

To start, I would like to say that with this build geared out, there is, imo, NO better melee FvS. Start with WF, take GS enhancement line, and you will enjoy!

Updated for current stats/gear.

Str: 29(16 base+3 tome, +6 item, +3 exc, +1 litany) Epic belt=30(+6 titan's grip, +2 rage)=38 bursting
Dex: 9(8 base+1 litany)
Con: 25(12 base+2 tome, +2 enh, +6 item, +2 exc, +1 litany) (+3 tome)=26
Int: 11(8 base+2 tome, +1 litany)-for skill pts
Wis: 36(16 base+3 tome, +5 levels, +2 enh, +6 item, +3 exc, +1 litany) (Epic helm, +4 tome)=38
Cha: 23(10+2 tome, +2 enh, +6 item, +2 capstone, +1 litany) (+3 tome)=24

Gear:

Head: Minos Legens--(Epic Helm of Mroranon: +7 wis,+15 intim,immunity to fear, yellow slot)
Neck: Shintoa cord--+6 con, +15 concentration, Noxious Embers(when in casting mode)
Trinket: Bloodstone, Litany(+1 to all stats, +1 to att/dam)-when in casting mode
Cloak: GS Con/Opp(+10hp, +50sp, +100 sp)
Belt: Tokala's Belt(clickie)--(Epic Belt of Mroranon: +7 str, heavy fort, toughness, yellow slot)
Gloves: Gloves of Titan's Grip--+6 str
Boots: Titan boots(any)
Bracers: Bracers of the Glacier
Goggles: Tharnes Goggles, (Mentau's Goggles: Necro focus, +4 seeker)
Ring1: Kyosho's Ring--+6 wis, +3 exc str
Ring2: Telvi's Touch--+6 cha, +3 exc wis
Docent: Quorforged docent(+8 armor, Sup False Life, toughness)

This is probably my favorite character to play. I have an SoS, still need other stuff to upgrade to epic, and a MinII GS that are my main weapons. Gear dependant, but from my experience, find me a toon that is not.

Update-- 502hp/2674sp. +43/+42 to-hit/dam self buffed(no titan's grip or rage). Still need a shroud hp item(probably gloves with litII guard) and a +3 con tome for 55 more hp. Have bauble and ring of spell storing for ~375 extra sp.

Think yours is better?

p.s. Feats: Toughness, Maximize, Empower, Extend, Quicken, PA, IC: Slash(15-20x4 Epic SoS)!

[Lithic]

Nice 38pt build you have there.

[Waukeen]

agree that the wis or str must start have started 2 pts lower at 16 str or 14 wis, or 17, 15.

+1 for posting your build soul, I've run with both your (32pt) and Alter's (TR II) DPS FvSs before, one of these is very high on my list of characters to build because of the capabilities you two have proficiently examplified.

Look up Soulgear or Alterlife on myddo, the shapshot of the results of this build are clear.

-Runix, One of Two Kings

[Minor_Threat]

Seksy.

[Ssmooth]

Nice 38pt build you have there.

Edited. Sorry, forgot I had won a +3 str tome in a reaver, and forgot +1 exc str from kyosho's ring. Starting str is 16, but all end numbers do not change. :)

[Alter]

or my ddo alterlife

:D

[blitzschlag]

i did start my main with 14 str, 15 con and 11 cha and play him as a full (evocation) caster with above average melee capabilities (mostly only against those pesky gits that don't want to run through the bb). don't have pa/imp crit but 2 spellfocus evocation ;)

[Greydeath]

Con: 12

This tells us everything we need to know about your build :rolleyes:

[Impatiens]

This tells us everything we need to know about your build :rolleyes:

Seeing as he has almost 500 hp with his current gear I don't think the 12 starting con is hurting him much ;)

I still prefer my TWF elf FVS, but that's probably more for aesthetic reasons than anything else.

[Anneliese]

This tells us everything we need to know about your build :rolleyes:

He can get 80HP from toughness enhancements and 2Con from WF (tho that eats a lot of AP - 26)
(Could even get the WF Fortitude enhancements if that matters)

[Anneliese]

Oh, did I forget to mention that this build is fully healing specced for those tough raids?


Well, no empower Healing. Once they fix Mass Heal, that would be a nice addition.

Its very situational tho.

[sirgog]

Well, no empower Healing. Once they fix Mass Heal, that would be a nice addition.

Its very situational tho.

Emp Healing is, IMO, a must-have even now, without it Heal doesn't heal for enough.



Also, I don't see what you gain from investing so much into Wisdom.

What DC spells are you casting at endgame? Occasional Bladebarriers (which don't lose much from dropping Wisdom) and Implosion in favor runs and Shroud part 4 only - but what else?

IMO you'd be better off starting with a modest Wisdom and high/maxxed Str rather than modest Str and maxxed Wisdom.

[blitzschlag]

Emp Healing is, IMO, a must-have even now, without it Heal doesn't heal for enough.



Also, I don't see what you gain from investing so much into Wisdom.

What DC spells are you casting at endgame? Occasional Bladebarriers (which don't lose much from dropping Wisdom) and Implosion in favor runs and Shroud part 4 only - but what else?

IMO you'd be better off starting with a modest Wisdom and high/maxxed Str rather than modest Str and maxxed Wisdom.

well, imo the 5 dc i got from heighten and 2 evocation focus feats made my bladebarrier lots more effective in high level content (amrath and later). if you want to be remotely effective at casting there is no other way than maxxing wisdom. even more as warforged where you are 4 wisdom behind a human cleric anyway. moderately good melee capability comes as a free gift (and with a epic sos in his build).

about empower healing: if you have the feat spare its a must, yes. still single heals are effective enough with the superior ardor viii clicky. when mass heal is fixed that might be a good cause to get empower healing anyway tho...

[Xithos]

I like it :) Not quite as much as a TWF fleshy variant, but it's a sweet build!

[Zaodan]

Emp Healing is, IMO, a must-have even now, without it Heal doesn't heal for enough.

Also, I don't see what you gain from investing so much into Wisdom.

What DC spells are you casting at endgame? Occasional Bladebarriers (which don't lose much from dropping Wisdom) and Implosion in favor runs and Shroud part 4 only - but what else?

IMO you'd be better off starting with a modest Wisdom and high/maxxed Str rather than modest Str and maxxed Wisdom.

My 2 cents:

- Why use Heal (and require Emp Healing), when you can use Cure Critical for more using Max/Empower? I have Heal scrolls if you have debuffs you need removed.
- Destruction and Implosion are very effective if your DCs are high enough.

[Impaqt]

This tells us everything we need to know about your build :rolleyes:

12 CON is more than enough for a FvS. Toughness Enh + Self healing is more than durable enough for ANY content. I think its funny how people look at the CON score before they take the time to look at th Hit Points. so a 14 or 1`6 CON would of made a lot of difference? 20-40 Hit points makes or breaks the build? Only if its a crappy build int he first place.


Emp Healing is, IMO, a must-have even now, without it Heal doesn't heal for enough.



Also, I don't see what you gain from investing so much into Wisdom.

What DC spells are you casting at endgame? Occasional Bladebarriers (which don't lose much from dropping Wisdom) and Implosion in favor runs and Shroud part 4 only - but what else?

IMO you'd be better off starting with a modest Wisdom and high/maxxed Str rather than modest Str and maxxed Wisdom.


Mass Heal is To Slow to use in Raid situations if you are solo healing. Mass Cures are a lot safer. Even once its "Fixed" I will use it sparingly

[woundweaver]

Emp Healing is, IMO, a must-have even now, without it Heal doesn't heal for enough.



Also, I don't see what you gain from investing so much into Wisdom.

What DC spells are you casting at endgame? Occasional Bladebarriers (which don't lose much from dropping Wisdom) and Implosion in favor runs and Shroud part 4 only - but what else?

IMO you'd be better off starting with a modest Wisdom and high/maxxed Str rather than modest Str and maxxed Wisdom.umm, dunno about others, but i use implosion, destruction, bb, harm, and cometfall alot. wisdom does make a difference. i can tell a huge difference in woundedsouls dc's(with 28 wisdom, 28 charisma), and in woundshadow(with 34 wisdom, 30 charisma). both are capped. only place i have trouble landing offensive spells is in amrath. the saves on the mobs there are insane, even having spell pen feat, and several other boosts, both fail destructs and implosions more often than not. fvs are great melee, but you forget they have no evasion, or ac to speak of. you have to rely on offensive spells to survive, even if it is only destruction and cometfall for some sort of ranged, to blade barrier, and harm for close combat. implosion is icing on the cake, depending on the area you are in. fighting bosses, like tod's horoth, down to harry and sully, fvs take ALOT of damage while meleeing. you spend precious dps swings, due to healing yourself. strength is nice on a melee build, though, dont get me wrong. just trying to say dc's are important for ANY fvs, melee or offensive alike. woundedsoul is an offensive/melee fvs, and woundshadow is a offensive/healer type. i had to add dual lightning greensteels to woundedsoul, just for the extra damage to make up for the dps lost, due to healing. feel free to check em out on myddo. you can see im talking from experience. on a final note, go with wisdom. it should be a little higher than your charisma. dc's mean much.

[sirgog]

My 2 cents:

- Why use Heal (and require Emp Healing), when you can use Cure Critical for more using Max/Empower? I have Heal scrolls if you have debuffs you need removed.
- Destruction and Implosion are very effective if your DCs are high enough.

- Max-Emp CCW costs a lot more mana than Heal, that's why. If your FvS build had 10000 SP, I'd say yeah, pay no attention to mana conservation - but even FvS's with the Epic Spell Storing Ring don't have that.

- If by 'effective' you mean 'the word "Immune" comes up every time you cast it', then yes, Destruction and Implosion are 'effective' at endgame. Both are great spells while levelling, but outside Shroud 1 and 4, favor runs and (if you have a 40+ Wisdom) Hard/Elite Amrath, both are worthless at endgame.
Hopefully there'll be some spells in future that make maxxing Wisdom on a divine caster worthwhile again (Cometfall does have some merit against some trash, but not enough to merit levelup points into Wisdom IMO, Harm doesn't do enough damage to merit casting, BB kiting ceases to be worthwhile against 5k+ HP foes).


And as for Mass Heal being too slow - it's too slow if you react to damage, but if you learn to anticipate damage and start pre-casting Quickened Mass Heal (perhaps while everyone's HP bar is still full or close to it) it is incredible. I've solohealed a two-round Shroud Hard with no other spells (keeping only six melees alive) and the spell will continue to get better when it starts working on full raid groups.

[Ssmooth]

For those who chose a different path whom I respect, fellow guildies, Cersiv, and a few others, I trust in your playing/character build-style and there is never a doubt. This is for those that "just don't know". Yes, I could have ignored wisdom, and maxed str but let's look at what I gained vs what I lost going the max wisdom route.

Max str: 18(base)+5(levels)+6(item)+3(exc)+4(tome)=36+2(rag e)+6(titan's grip)=44(+4 scourge choker, +4 madstoned)=52

52 would almost never happen, except when in a boss fight and you are only there as another melee. So we'll say 44 burst str with 38 sustainable with rage pots. The max wisdom build has a sustainable str of 32. The difference is +3/4 to-hit/damage.

Now the difference in dc's on these build is enormous in most cases. Most builds that I have seen have either neglected wisdom all together, or have low 20's for wis. Even at a 26 wis(16 base+2 tome+2 enh+6 item) the dc for all spells would be 6 lower. This is the closest it gets. Most builds that are str based won't have 26 wis, so BB/cometfall/harm/destruction are wasted spells.

Don't forget that next mod is undead hordes comming for us all!! The dc's for all of your mass cure's will now affect most of the mobs along with keeping your party alive while you are fighting. If the main boss is an undead...same thing.

Dc's have always mattered for casters and this will not change. My build will be able to do it all AND fight like a mo fo!! This build is a caster/beater in every sense of the word. High damage output, high dc's. Not the highest dc's like a human casting FvS, but close. As for Emp Heal, meh. I crit on my heals for over a 750 without it. Would it improve the healing abilities of this build, sure. But this build is not 'just' a healer and I felt(and still feel) that it would be a wasted feat.

[valorik]

no torc?!!!?!!?!!?!?!? !? !? !? !? !? !? !? ! ! 1/ ?! ! 1? !

a melee fvs without a torc is like... wrong...

[Dazalarian]

This is the same **** as making a sorc with 3 levels of pally and using a GA to hit mobs with while casting FW and haste.

Why take a class and make a build with it that doesnt focus on the strength's of that class. Sure, you will be "ok" at melee, you will be "ok" at healing and you will be "ok" at crowdcontrol. If you have the chance to make a build which is top notch in healing and crowdcontrol you add melee power to it and it becomes bland.

just my $0.25
-Daz

[sirgog]

This is the same **** as making a sorc with 3 levels of pally and using a GA to hit mobs with while casting FW and haste.

Why take a class and make a build with it that doesnt focus on the strength's of that class. Sure, you will be "ok" at melee, you will be "ok" at healing and you will be "ok" at crowdcontrol. If you have the chance to make a build which is top notch in healing and crowdcontrol you add melee power to it and it becomes bland.

just my $0.25
-Daz

Favored Souls are not a non-melee class. Read the effects of their spells. In particular, Divine Power and Divine Favor.

Besides, divine crowd control, while great from levels 9 to about 17 to 19, is almost worthless in epics and most raids *even if you have the highest possible DCs*. The class lacks the devastating CC spells (Mass Hold Monster, Otto's Irresistable Dance, heightened Web) and really has no better options than Greater Command (Mass Hold without the insta-crit), Symbol of Stunning (Mass Hold without the instant cast and with a horrid cooldown) and Cometfall (a Reflex-based equivalent of Greater Command that also tickles foes for ~300 damage).

Plus they cannot do the things to red/purple named bosses that a Sorc or Wizard can (Waves of Exhaustion, and in some cases meaningful spell damage through crit firewalls).


There is very little sacrifice to healing ability required to add a lot of melee capacity.

[Dazalarian]

Favored Souls are not a non-melee class. Read the effects of their spells. In particular, Divine Power and Divine Favor.

Besides, divine crowd control, while great from levels 9 to about 17 to 19, is almost worthless in epics and most raids *even if you have the highest possible DCs*. The class lacks the devastating CC spells (Mass Hold Monster, Otto's Irresistable Dance, heightened Web) and really has no better options than Greater Command (Mass Hold without the insta-crit), Symbol of Stunning (Mass Hold without the instant cast and with a horrid cooldown) and Cometfall (a Reflex-based equivalent of Greater Command that also tickles foes for ~300 damage).

Plus they cannot do the things to red/purple named bosses that a Sorc or Wizard can (Waves of Exhaustion, and in some cases meaningful spell damage through crit firewalls).


There is very little sacrifice to healing ability required to add a lot of melee capacity.

Ok so what your saying is that all clerics should do the same, they have the same spells and same highlevel problems you mention.

If you're gonna make a melee character, chose a class which is a real melee. Since you're talking so warmly about how useless a caster-based fvs is at epic/highlevel stuff could please clarify how a melee-based fvs could do the same job as a healer all while hacking away? The thing is, you will most likely end up healing through that fight 100% and thus your melee capability is negated. The time where you can melee and toss in a heal here and there or a control spell here and there is when you're fighting content which you wouldn't need a healer anyway and thus your healing/cc-abilities in the build is negated.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Xithos]

This is the same **** as making a sorc with 3 levels of pally and using a GA to hit mobs with while casting FW and haste.

Why take a class and make a build with it that doesnt focus on the strength's of that class. Sure, you will be "ok" at melee, you will be "ok" at healing and you will be "ok" at crowdcontrol. If you have the chance to make a build which is top notch in healing and crowdcontrol you add melee power to it and it becomes bland.

just my $0.25
-Daz

Not even close; I'm wondering how you can assess the build's proficiency as a healer without a breakdown of his spell selection and enhancements. A 20 Favored Soul can be an amazing healer regardless of wisdom and Cha serves to only add a little sp at end game. Things to keep in mind:

1) Healing party members is not DC based.

2) Crowd Control? Most divine offensive casting is oriented towards damage with blade barrier, cometfall, searing light et. all and insta-death. He has made some sacrifice in this regard (lack of heighten and spell pen feats, itemization like no reaver's napkin, a little less wisdom than human, etc).

3) Think of the melee ability as an "icing on the cake" effect. If he can fulfill the role of doing a great job keeping a raid group alive and efficient while finding the time to sneak in a few hacks and slashes-- mission accomplished. Healing things like epic Vault of Night usually involves multiple healers taking "shifts" covering the party to keep wasteful overhealing to a minimum. On my Pure FvS I use the downtime to mix in some capstone searing light, on my meleesoul I DPS and take hits so my SP recharges with concordant opp/ torc, and on my straight cleric I generally take it easy.

[Tumarek]

Not even close; I'm wondering how you can assess the build's proficiency as a healer without a breakdown of his spell selection and enhancements. A 20 Favored Soul can be an amazing healer regardless of wisdom and Cha serves to only add a little sp at end game. Things to keep in mind:

1) Healing party members is not DC based.

2) Crowd Control? Most divine offensive casting is oriented towards damage with blade barrier, cometfall, searing light et. all and insta-death. He has made some sacrifice in this regard (lack of heighten and spell pen feats, itemization like no reaver's napkin, a little less wisdom than human, etc).

3) Think of the melee ability as an "icing on the cake" effect. If he can fulfill the role of doing a great job keeping a raid group alive and efficient while finding the time to sneak in a few hacks and slashes-- mission accomplished. Healing things like epic Vault of Night usually involves multiple healers taking "shifts" covering the party to keep wasteful overhealing to a minimum. On my Pure FvS I use the downtime to mix in some capstone searing light, on my meleesoul I DPS and take hits so my SP recharges with concordant opp/ torc, and on my straight cleric I generally take it easy.

Agreed... adding melee capabilities doesnt harm your healing at all. Actually it makes it easier lots of times because you are standing right next to the tanks when they need healing and you dont have to worry if you are aiming at the right guy. you just cast it at youself and get them all.

And you can transform into Nannybot at anytime without any disadvantiges. Also you have not spend lots of SP on the combat spells and therefore can even be the better healer.

[sirgog]

Ok so what your saying is that all clerics should do the same, they have the same spells and same highlevel problems you mention.

If you're gonna make a melee character, chose a class which is a real melee. Since you're talking so warmly about how useless a caster-based fvs is at epic/highlevel stuff could please clarify how a melee-based fvs could do the same job as a healer all while hacking away? The thing is, you will most likely end up healing through that fight 100% and thus your melee capability is negated. The time where you can melee and toss in a heal here and there or a control spell here and there is when you're fighting content which you wouldn't need a healer anyway and thus your healing/cc-abilities in the build is negated.

Cheers,
-Daz

They heal 6-person content the same way my Clr18/Ftr2 heals Epics.

Swing until someone falls under 60% hp. Then cast quickened, (optionally empowered) Mass Heal centred on yourself. 2.5 seconds later, everyone's at full (or pretty safe) hp, and you are swinging again. Realistically you do half the damage of a non-healing melee (more like 70-75% if the incoming damage is low enough that you don't need to cast Mass Heal every cooldown and can use less mana-efficient spells like Heal or Mass Cure spells instead)

In fights with extreme incoming damage (Nytharios, VOD during bats) - basically any time you take more damage than can be healed this way - switch on Maximize and spam Mass Cures, same as a Healbot would. (You have slightly less SP than a healbot, but usually as much as an offensive caster build).

[Dazalarian]

They heal 6-person content the same way my Clr18/Ftr2 heals Epics.

Swing until someone falls under 60% hp. Then cast quickened, (optionally empowered) Mass Heal centred on yourself. 2.5 seconds later, everyone's at full (or pretty safe) hp, and you are swinging again. Realistically you do half the damage of a non-healing melee (more like 70-75% if the incoming damage is low enough that you don't need to cast Mass Heal every cooldown and can use less mana-efficient spells like Heal or Mass Cure spells instead)


Yes, exactly. How often does someone fall under 60% HP on epic? quite often in my experience. which means you can probably pitch in 1-2 swings before u need to cast again. Another example try healing in shroud part 4 or 5 while you melee the boss, or in ToD for that matter. All you gonna do is very little damage for the cost of "watering down" your build.

I totally agree that the build works really well in 6 man content (which u can do without a healer anyway) but to me builds like this are not optimized for their roll (either healer or melee). Sure they might be "fun" to play but I can think of about 10 more "fun" builds to make instead of a second hand melee/healer.

Cheers,
-Daz

PS. before you guys start to go ballistic and post 1 million replies about how your build has healed through shroud etc. don't bother. my mind is made up.

[Tumarek]

All you gonna do is very little damage for the cost of "watering down" your build.
...


Ok explain to me in what way a meele FVS is "watering down" his build considering healing at all? A meele FvS is the same if not even the better healer compared to a casting FvS.... anytime everywhere.

So you could be talking about melle dps compared to combat casting and that just aint effective always. Some content yes, in some contenst oc spell are a waste of time and sp.

[Anneliese]

Ssmooth, could you please list your spell selection from 6-9?

I have always some trouble choosing these, since there are so many good spells there. Thanks!

[petegunn]

Heres my take on healing after playing 3 clerics and 2 fvs, close to the end game its better to have some melee capability than to just be a pure healer.

Mob dc's are too high even if you're speced for it, but one things for sure its great to beat on em with a big fecking stick (or two). In comparison if you're just heal speced you're pigeon holed into one category only and you're missing out on some of the fun and games.

So to conclude for me its great to be able to both heal and melee, let the sorcs and wizards insta kill the mobs. I support the melee cleric fvs philosophy

[Ssmooth]

Ok so what your saying is that all clerics should do the same, they have the same spells and same highlevel problems you mention.

If you're gonna make a melee character, chose a class which is a real melee. Since you're talking so warmly about how useless a caster-based fvs is at epic/highlevel stuff could please clarify how a melee-based fvs could do the same job as a healer all while hacking away? The thing is, you will most likely end up healing through that fight 100% and thus your melee capability is negated. The time where you can melee and toss in a heal here and there or a control spell here and there is when you're fighting content which you wouldn't need a healer anyway and thus your healing/cc-abilities in the build is negated.

Cheers,
-Daz

By your Dec 2009 join date, I can only surmise that you are using your vast DDO experience in your critique of this build. As I've been playing since beta, I'll pretty much ignore your posts as you have no clue what you are talking about. The reason clerics cannot do the same is pretty basic. FvS enhancements for damage combined with a much larger mana pool allow make them unique in this game.

As far as 'real melee' goes, self buffed +35/+40 to-hit/damage with PA on isn't low by any standards. This is base. Barded up it's more like +40/+50 with +44/+54 bursting. I've short manned groups that did not require me to babysit the party and I have the same damage output as an 18 kensai 2-hander. Yes, a MinII GA crits harder than a MinII GS, but I compared numbers. Kensai had +50/+40 to-hit/damage. Yeah, looks like average damage. Sure. The fact that I can heal epic quests and then dps when I'm out has zero advantage. Sure.

Can a cleric do this--no. With a smaller mana pool and lack of enhancement boosts it's just not comparable.

[Ssmooth]

Ssmooth, could you please list your spell selection from 6-9?

I have always some trouble choosing these, since there are so many good spells there. Thanks!

This is what i have currently:

6th: BB, Comefall, Heal
7th: CMM, Prot mass, Destruction
8th: CMC, Death pact(will probably change-never use), Deathward mass
9th: Energy drain, Implosion

Still 19/1 FvS/Monk, need to TR to get full FvS, so kinda stuck till TR.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

I have the same damage output as an 18 kensai 2-hander.

2 damage from FvS enh
2 damage from FvS feat
3 damage divine favor
= +7 damage per swing

w/ bladesworn transformation
3 damage from +4 str
= +10 damage per swing

vs.

6 damage from +8 strength powersurge
4 damage weapon specialization/greater weapon spec
2 weapon spec enhancements
2 kensei weapon mastery
2 fighter strength enh
= +16 damage per swing

Not to mention the fighter's haste boost, stacking +4 seeker, and +1 critical threat range. And if he is full-on level 20 fighter, the 10% alacrity.

You may be doing some good damage, maybe even reasonably close damage to the kensei, but there's no way you can do as much damage as him, given the same gear and even given the same starting stats.


Regardless, looks pretty good, glad you're enjoying the build and being successful with it. I've always had a soft spot for battlecaster (whether arcane or divine), and this looks very solid.

[Dazalarian]

By your Dec 2009 join date, I can only surmise that you are using your vast DDO experience in your critique of this build. As I've been playing since beta, I'll pretty much ignore your posts as you have no clue what you are talking about. The reason clerics cannot do the same is pretty basic. FvS enhancements for damage combined with a much larger mana pool allow make them unique in this game.


I've played this game since Beta, I've played on the EU-servers before and now I moved here.



As far as 'real melee' goes, self buffed +35/+40 to-hit/damage with PA on isn't low by any standards. This is base. Barded up it's more like +40/+50 with +44/+54 bursting. I've short manned groups that did not require me to babysit the party and I have the same damage output as an 18 kensai 2-hander. Yes, a MinII GA crits harder than a MinII GS, but I compared numbers. Kensai had +50/+40 to-hit/damage. Yeah, looks like average damage. Sure. The fact that I can heal epic quests and then dps when I'm out has zero advantage. Sure.


hahahahaahah

no but seriously

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Daz

[sephiroth1084]

I've played this game since Beta, I've played on the EU-servers before and now I moved here.



hahahahaahah

no but seriously

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

-Daz
Neg rep for being a ****.



Cheers,
-Daz

PS. before you guys start to go ballistic and post 1 million replies about how your build has healed through shroud etc. don't bother. my mind is made up.
If that's the case, why are you still trolling this thread? You clearly don't agree, and have stated such, although your comments seem to indicate that you have never grouped with a good melee healer and have little ability to analyze figures.

I for one do not play any healers (currently), but have grouped with several good melee healers. The first time that I questioned my vehement dislike for battleclerics was during a Shroud where the battlecleric solo healed us through part 4 while also beating on Harry (2nd cleric died right away to a meteor swarm), and that was back before the cap went up. More recently, I ran an epic VoN 1 with a melee-FvS whose healing was more than sufficient to keep the party up while also helping by contribute DPS, and had the same in Epic Wiz King. Sure, in Epic OoB, DQ 2 or VoN 6 the FvS will probably have to sit back and focus entirely on healing, but then they'll be no different than any other healbot.

So again, if you have nothing useful to contribute, why not just mosey on and troll some other thread?

[Dazalarian]

Neg rep for being a ****.


When someone who claims to have played since beta and also claim that their melee fvs is doing the same damage as a kensai thf build it makes me laugh.

-Daz

[sephiroth1084]

When someone who claims to have played since beta and also claim that their melee fvs is doing the same damage as a kensai thf build it makes me laugh.

-Daz
Yeah, his figuring was off somewhat, but your earlier posts had been pretty abrasive anyway. That last one was just completely pointless as, instead of posting a comparison as another poster did, all you did was add yet another pointless post.

[blitzschlag]

Yeah, his figuring was off somewhat, but your earlier posts had been pretty abrasive anyway. That last one was just completely pointless as, instead of posting a comparison as another poster did, all you did was add yet another pointless post.

so i guess the forum-police did neg rep ssmooth too because of his "looking at your joindate you don't have a clue" **** too

daz arguments are as good as the others around. how long did it take your guild to get yourselfes 10 green squares and be forum police?

[sephiroth1084]

so i guess the forum-police did neg rep ssmooth too because of his "looking at your joindate you don't have a clue" **** too

daz arguments are as good as the others around. how long did it take your guild to get yourselfes 10 green squares and be forum police?
Try again in English?

But if you're trying to make some crack about me being "forum police," save it. The point of the rep system is to praise those posts that you view as being good and put down those that are bad. I tend to only give positive rep for something that I found to be exceptionally helpful, well thought out or that made me laugh out loud, and neg rep only to those posts that are really negatively pointless, asininely ignorant or slanderous.

I was enjoying reading this thread, since I am always trying to learn more about the game and character roles (and because I may one day break down and roll up a healer), and don't need to slog through a bunch of ******** mucking up the discussion.

[Gercho]

I m debating between this build and a more str focused build, you lose cc but gain melee capability, it seems that at end game the cc doesnt matters as much, and overall for soloing melee seems better.
i would go:

str 18
dex 8
con 16
int 13
wis 6
cha 11

What do you think? Not sure if str 18 is the right thing, but it seems that 3 more to dc wont matter if i dont max wis anyway, i want to have 4 skills maxed (conc, umd, jump and balance) thats why i take int 13.
So, not much use in general for the 6 points if i go str 16...

[werk]

I've played this game since Beta, I've played on the EU-servers before and now I moved here.
-Daz


So far I've gotten a lot of attitude from EU refugees, but nothing that would garner respect.

[ilgriffo]

cha 11



Hmm...

11 base CHA + 4 tome = 15 CHA

You will be 4 points below the minimal requirements of CHA 19 in order to be able to cast lv 9th spells.
So you will be forced to spend 4 level up points (4th;8;12;16) to reach 19. and IMHO it is just a waste of level up points, not counting you still have to find a +4 tome.



So, not much use in general for the 6 points if i go str 16...

[Gercho]

11 cha +2 tome +2 capstone +1 enhancement (16 enough to cast heal when distrupted) + 6 item 22 enough to cast lvl 12 spells :P

For casting spells all your cha matters, not just base.

[phalaeo]

What your Melee FvS should say upon entering a group

"Hi guys- I'm a Melee FvS, not a Healer"

(Sorry, I just ran a really bad TOR almost-wipe with a Melee FvS- perhaps you should add that all FvS should consider taking Raise Dead as well as adding it to their hotbar? Yeah, I'm bitter...:eek:)

[Ssmooth]

2 damage from FvS enh
2 damage from FvS feat
3 damage divine favor
= +7 damage per swing

w/ bladesworn transformation
3 damage from +4 str
= +10 damage per swing

vs.

6 damage from +8 strength powersurge
4 damage weapon specialization/greater weapon spec
2 weapon spec enhancements
2 kensei weapon mastery
2 fighter strength enh
= +16 damage per swing

Not to mention the fighter's haste boost, stacking +4 seeker, and +1 critical threat range. And if he is full-on level 20 fighter, the 10% alacrity.

You may be doing some good damage, maybe even reasonably close damage to the kensei, but there's no way you can do as much damage as him, given the same gear and even given the same starting stats.


Regardless, looks pretty good, glad you're enjoying the build and being successful with it. I've always had a soft spot for battlecaster (whether arcane or divine), and this looks very solid.

Lol, so you add in kensai power surge and bladesworn transformation...yeah. I stated that this was close to an 18 kensai's base damage: self buffed for me, unbuffed for him. Yes, with fighter haste boost, 20 kensai and powersurge with the same gear, the kensai has better crits and faster hits=more damage. All I said was that this build is 'close' to the base damage which, from my experience ain't bad for a healer.

And Daz...I think your just butthurt that my WF battle FvS is simply better all around with a higher wisdom and more sp than your healbot. If you would like to cry, I can provide some kleenex.

[Impatiens]

Why take a class and make a build with it that doesnt focus on the strength's of that class. Sure, you will be "ok" at melee, you will be "ok" at healing and you will be "ok" at crowdcontrol. If you have the chance to make a build which is top notch in healing and crowdcontrol you add melee power to it and it becomes bland.


I know I shouldn't bother since your mind is made up, but melee FVS are still great at healing. You sacrifice next to nothing related to your healing ability in order to be decent at melee. FVS are never going to be top notch at crowd control. Leave the amazing CC to the arcanes. Being a good healer who can also effectively melee when soloing or contribute to melee damage when the fights do not need dedicated healing is not only useful, but a lot of fun.

[LawstCawz]

What your Melee FvS should say upon entering a group

"Hi guys- I'm a Melee FvS, not a Healer"

(Sorry, I just ran a really bad TOR almost-wipe with a Melee FvS- perhaps you should add that all FvS should consider taking Raise Dead as well as adding it to their hotbar? Yeah, I'm bitter...:eek:)

Just call it a gut feeling, but the problem wasn't in the concept. It was the execution.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Lol, so you add in kensai power surge and bladesworn transformation...yeah.

I figured that if I was including the bladesworn transformation for you, I should probably include the kensei power surge for the kensei... after all, it is an important facet of his PrE. However, even if you took off the kensei power surge and left on your transformation, you're still behind the kensei due to the haste boost/seeker/alacrity.


I stated that this was close to an 18 kensai's base damage: self buffed for me, unbuffed for him. Yes, with fighter haste boost, 20 kensai and powersurge with the same gear, the kensai has better crits and faster hits=more damage.

Well, what you stated was "I have the same damage output as an 18 kensei two-hander." I assumed you meant self-buffed for both, but if the comparison was meant to strip the fighter of his self-buffed (only one of which was included in my brief calc), then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Not counting power surge, haste boost, or the alacrity (that is, only counting the static feats and enhancements of 18th level kensei), the fighter is only very slightly ahead of the fvs in transformed mode (the only difference then being the seeker, which is adding 4.8 damage per swing).


All I said was that this build is 'close' to the base damage which, from my experience ain't bad for a healer

Oh, I absolutely agree that it's pretty darn good for a healer, and it's certainly closer than most would expect. Like I said in my first post, it is definitely close and is excellent for any sort of battlecaster--most builds wouldn't come near there at all. I just wanted to clarify to anyone that didn't know the exact comparison that you weren't quite doing "the same damage output as an 18 kensei two-hander."

[Xithos]

I know I shouldn't bother since your mind is made up, but melee FVS are still great at healing. You sacrifice next to nothing related to your healing ability in order to be decent at melee. FVS are never going to be top notch at crowd control. Leave the amazing CC to the arcanes. Being a good healer who can also effectively melee when soloing or contribute to melee damage when the fights do not need dedicated healing is not only useful, but a lot of fun.

Don't try to convince the ignorant of anything; he never found any way form of rebuttal to the post that asked him in which way the build was an "inferior" healer because he has no idea if it really is or not. Spread accurate facts and information in the event that a newer player wanders into a thread and is not lead completely astray :)

[Gercho]

Not counting power surge, haste boost, or the alacrity (that is, only counting the static feats and enhancements of 18th level kensei), the fighter is only very slightly ahead of the fvs in transformed mode (the only difference then being the seeker, which is adding 4.8 damage per swing).




Well, his build is not maxing str, that a fighter would certainly do, so you should count 7 more str for the fighter... (2 base, 5 level up) anyway, i agree that is pretty good damage for a healer, but i wonder if dumping wis and maxing str wont be the way to go for a mele fvs...

[Xithos]

Lol, so you add in kensai power surge and bladesworn transformation...yeah. I stated that this was close to an 18 kensai's base damage: self buffed for me, unbuffed for him. Yes, with fighter haste boost, 20 kensai and powersurge with the same gear, the kensai has better crits and faster hits=more damage. All I said was that this build is 'close' to the base damage which, from my experience ain't bad for a healer.

And Daz...I think your just butthurt that my WF battle FvS is simply better all around with a higher wisdom and more sp than your healbot. If you would like to cry, I can provide some kleenex.

It's important to not forget that the kensai has additional damage via the THF or TWF lines as well as Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization. Being a kensai drops the crit profile by 1 for the chosen weapon and having around 10 haste boosts at 25% is enormous in DPS boss fights. Also, the kensai has a much higher to-hit via Tower set, feats, Str, etc. Overall, the kensai has much higher DPS, but can't solo heal tower like your build could or mix and match healing and hitting :)

[Deamus]

By your Dec 2009 join date, I can only surmise that you are using your vast DDO experience in your critique of this build. As I've been playing since beta, I'll pretty much ignore your posts as you have no clue what you are talking about. The reason clerics cannot do the same is pretty basic. FvS enhancements for damage combined with a much larger mana pool allow make them unique in this game.

As far as 'real melee' goes, self buffed +35/+40 to-hit/damage with PA on isn't low by any standards. This is base. Barded up it's more like +40/+50 with +44/+54 bursting. I've short manned groups that did not require me to babysit the party and I have the same damage output as an 18 kensai 2-hander. Yes, a MinII GA crits harder than a MinII GS, but I compared numbers. Kensai had +50/+40 to-hit/damage. Yeah, looks like average damage. Sure. The fact that I can heal epic quests and then dps when I'm out has zero advantage. Sure.

Can a cleric do this--no. With a smaller mana pool and lack of enhancement boosts it's just not comparable.

Well i have the same build as you back in europe . As for my experience I play since beta . I have to say this though. You are comparing FVS DPS with kensai ? this comparison is full of lies ... the only reason to play a FVS like that is the fun factor not dps ... yes you can solo...yes you can switch to melee often ... but dont try to comparison your build with dps character . And seriously i don't think you have the skill to do both healing and melee......

PS : I created this build before you even dream it off .... dont tell lies to the people!

[Dazalarian]

I stated that this was close to an 18 kensai's base damage: self buffed for me, unbuffed for him. Yes, with fighter haste boost, 20 kensai and powersurge with the same gear, the kensai has better crits and faster hits=more damage. All I said was that this build is 'close' to the base damage which, from my experience ain't bad for a healer.


Nice backpedal there. thats not what you said.



And Daz...I think your just butthurt that my WF battle FvS is simply better all around with a higher wisdom and more sp than your healbot. If you would like to cry, I can provide some kleenex.

Better watch it, the forum police patrols this thread vigorously :)

Ok, let me start from scratch why I dont believe in this build. I will try to back it up with facts and not as some ppl claim "gut feeling".

I've had this exact same discussion twice before on the EU forums and as the future has revealed I was right in both cases (this was when the cap was at 16).

1) The pally3/sorc 13. Ppl claimed this build could do all the jobs a pure sorc/wiz could do and also deal out considerable damage with their GS greataxe. So they claimed it to be a superior build. It was one of the first (if not the first) build that became known as "flavor of the month"-builds. Not really a lot of these builds kicking around now.

2) The cleric 13/monk2/ftr 1. This was the next best thing since sliced bread according to the ppl who "knew". TWF, dual GS DA's. They were claiming, "I deal massive damage and when there is need for healing I can do that as good as any pure cleric around". Same thing here, there are some of these kicking around but they never really cought on (this was also a FOTM build).

To me my builds are all about end content, raidbosses, epic etc. I have just started here so I'm still grinding for gear, GS and nameds etc. but the aim with each and every build I make its aimed for that content. Sure it doesn't leave any room for what ppl think is "fun" (like for instance hacking up mobs on non-endgame content while throwing in a heal now and then).

As for taking some cheapshots on my build (assumingly by myddo) and you totally didnt get the idea with the build at all. Its not a healbot, it plays pretty much like a WF wizard. Offensive casting, searing light, holy smite, MM. All those spells kill in the endgame, together with destruction, cometfall, BB and implosion. You get all that + I'm a healbot :)

Cheers,
-Daz

[Tumarek]

Nice backpedal there. thats not what you said.



Better watch it, the forum police patrols this thread vigorously :)

Ok, let me start from scratch why I dont believe in this build. I will try to back it up with facts and not as some ppl claim "gut feeling".

I've had this exact same discussion twice before on the EU forums and as the future has revealed I was right in both cases (this was when the cap was at 16).

1) The pally3/sorc 13. Ppl claimed this build could do all the jobs a pure sorc/wiz could do and also deal out considerable damage with their GS greataxe. So they claimed it to be a superior build. It was one of the first (if not the first) build that became known as "flavor of the month"-builds. Not really a lot of these builds kicking around now.

2) The cleric 13/monk2/ftr 1. This was the next best thing since sliced bread according to the ppl who "knew". TWF, dual GS DA's. They were claiming, "I deal massive damage and when there is need for healing I can do that as good as any pure cleric around". Same thing here, there are some of these kicking around but they never really cought on (this was also a FOTM build).

To me my builds are all about end content, raidbosses, epic etc. I have just started here so I'm still grinding for gear, GS and nameds etc. but the aim with each and every build I make its aimed for that content. Sure it doesn't leave any room for what ppl think is "fun" (like for instance hacking up mobs on non-endgame content while throwing in a heal now and then).

As for taking some cheapshots on my build (assumingly by myddo) and you totally didnt get the idea with the build at all. Its not a healbot, it plays pretty much like a WF wizard. Offensive casting, searing light, holy smite, MM. All those spells kill in the endgame, together with destruction, cometfall, BB and implosion. You get all that + I'm a healbot :)

Cheers,
-Daz



Did you ever play epic?

Even when maxing your DC, it wont be too hard for the mobs to overcome, what leads to offensive casting to be much weaker. Implosion, destruction and so on wont work at all, and blade barrier and cometfall will be much weaker, still usefull, but weaker.

At this point a meele healer can be more usefull, is all what people have been trying to say.

And why bring up old 16 cap builds here... nobody builds for 16 anymore and it doesnt really prove your point. You just pointed out two not so good builds.

What i am really missing here is why exactly you think this build isnt any good?

-for raiding the healer normally stays back in nannymode... this guy can do it as good as any other healer. He misses NO HEALING CAPABILITIES. If you think he does show us where!

This build is more about end game / raid then your guy is from my perspective... at least considering epic.

[ilgriffo]

11 cha +2 tome +2 capstone +1 enhancement (16 enough to cast heal when distrupted) + 6 item 22 enough to cast lvl 12 spells :P

For casting spells all your cha matters, not just base.

ah you'r right, I always forget to take into consideration +Stat items on casters couse I do not like to swap items and loose the +stat one.

PS:
out of couriosity, How will work a +stat item under the influence of Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

[Arctigis]

ah you'r right, I always forget to take into consideration +Stat items on casters couse I do not like to swap items and loose the +stat one.

PS:
out of couriosity, How will work a +stat item under the influence of Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

You get 'disjuncted' :). My WF melee FvS started out with Cha = 9. +2 tome + 2 capstone +6 item = 19. I carry
eagles splendour to get me back up to to a level where I can cast heal and resurrection if I get 'disjuncted'.
I find AP too tight to use on +Cha.

I'm a pretty casual player, I have no raid loot and only have greensteel gs blank (which I managed to pick up for a song
on the AH). Even with basic equipment, I have ~500hp, ~2.2k SP and +40 something damage per hit. Oh, and
DR 15/adamantine (the only mob I have encountered which bypasses this is the animated armours in Raiding
the Giants Vault). It's all good as far as I am concerned.

[Shade]

Seems to me a "melee" FvS would start max str and put all his level up points in there.

This looks like a well built caster fvs.. But calling it "melee" seems a bit wrong. You'd have some massive trouble connecting any attacks endgame in any difficult content where it might actually matter if you helped with the melee. And even vs the easy stuff you'd hit fine, your DPS would be rather terrible so you might as well be holding a vorpal, which you could do with a 12 or 14 base str just as well.

Also, Greatswords are meh. I'd level up with a greataxe (get feat), then switch to greatsword after you get a sword of shadow (or if its a TR that already has one, once you hit lvl10, or 20 if you alreayd epic'd it)

[Dazalarian]

Did you ever play epic?

Even when maxing your DC, it wont be too hard for the mobs to overcome, what leads to offensive casting to be much weaker. Implosion, destruction and so on wont work at all, and blade barrier and cometfall will be much weaker, still usefull, but weaker.


Are you intentionally trying to read every other word I'm writing? You even cut my quote so it would fit your vision of how things work according to you. Yes, Implosion, destruction, BB and Cometfall are weaker on Epic, thats why I listed them last among the spells I mentioned.



At this point a meele healer can be more usefull, is all what people have been trying to say.

And why bring up old 16 cap builds here... nobody builds for 16 anymore and it doesnt really prove your point. You just pointed out two not so good builds.

What i am really missing here is why exactly you think this build isnt any good?

-for raiding the healer normally stays back in nannymode... this guy can do it as good as any other healer. He misses NO HEALING CAPABILITIES. If you think he does show us where!


What is the purpose with his build, is it to have fun? while playing normal content and some endgame content?
or is it the best type of FvS for the endgame content.

Yes you're right, he misses no healing capabilities, well I like Empower Heal, but you can get along without it if you got more healingspells and thus more cooldown timers. BUT, and here comes what I dont like. IF you're doing raids (or tough endgame content) like you say he stays back in healing-mode then the whole point of adding the melee capabilities to the character at all? So you can help out melee vs stuff that doesnt require your to help out healing?
if the stuff you're fighting doesnt require you to heal then you should probably have brought another melee.

What about versatility? you might say. "He can fight the trash and heal when it gets hard" the stuff you can fight is the same stuff you can use spells on.

As for mentioning the old builds above it was to prove that the same lines of argument were used back then and it didnt pan out and frankly I can't see it work this time around either.

Cheers,
-Daz

[sirgog]

Mass Heal is To Slow to use in Raid situations if you are solo healing. Mass Cures are a lot safer. Even once its "Fixed" I will use it sparingly

This experience should demonstrate the power of this spell.


Just solohealed the first two passes in a PUG Elite Shroud on Numot-Khyber, my Clr18/Ftr2. I used no spells other than Mass Heal. (Six melees in the middle, the bard and one sorc were scrollhealing those not in melee with Harry).

After I ran out of mana, we had Zooooooool (melee-specced FvS20) do exactly the same thing for passes 3 and 4. (A third FvS healed the trash passes). Harry went down with the FvS'es having over 1000 mana left each. Total mana used - about 4000. No deaths - and that's a four-pass Elite run (Harry puts out about as much damage in four Elite passes as he would in six or seven Normal passes. Four passes is pretty low DPS - this group would have taken about 1.75 passes on Normal)


Part 5 was similar, although single-target heals were needed on casters that were 'summoned' to Harry, and we had two deaths. Noone needed to use pools or Baubles in the fight (let alone mana pots), and although I was OOM and so was the FvS17, Zooooooool had over 1200 mana left.

[Rasczak]

So far I've gotten a lot of attitude from EU refugees, but nothing that would garner respect.

from what I've noticed a lot of that attitude is based on the fact that people seem to think join dates are the be all and having an earlier date means you are more right.

I've had it tossed at myself a few times as though having a recent join date to the US means I have no idea what I am talking about...the exact same thing happened here in this thread. Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with people's actions but I know that a few posters become abbrasive purely because they get ignored because their join date says 2009/2010.

Daz is in a world all on his own though so his behaviour can't be used as a marker for everyones......same goes for posting that Euro's are all abrasive. How would you who is euro and who isn't if the comments are generally "look at your join date, yeah you know what you're talking about"?

Edit: as a side note, a lot of the 'abbrasive' comments are generally a misunderstanding due to differences in humour ;)

[Rasczak]

This experience should demonstrate the power of this spell.


Just solohealed the first two passes in a PUG Elite Shroud on Numot-Khyber, my Clr18/Ftr2. I used no spells other than Mass Heal. (Six melees in the middle, the bard and one sorc were scrollhealing those not in melee with Harry).

After I ran out of mana, we had Zooooooool (melee-specced FvS20) do exactly the same thing for passes 3 and 4. (A third FvS healed the trash passes). Harry went down with the FvS'es having over 1000 mana left each. Total mana used - about 4000. No deaths - and that's a four-pass Elite run (Harry puts out about as much damage in four Elite passes as he would in six or seven Normal passes. Four passes is pretty low DPS - this group would have taken about 1.75 passes on Normal)


Part 5 was similar, although single-target heals were needed on casters that were 'summoned' to Harry, and we had two deaths. Noone needed to use pools or Baubles in the fight (let alone mana pots), and although I was OOM and so was the FvS17, Zooooooool had over 1200 mana left.

I would have to agree with skill being the only reason a lot of things fail or succeed. I'm not saying you're wrong at all, far from it. But if I had to give the same build to a new player the turnout would not be the same. And by new player I mean someone who levels that character to appropriate level. In all honesty I would suggest someone uses lesser healing dice at quicker casting times unless they an expert in sussing out a situation.

[valorik]

Also, Greatswords are meh. I'd level up with a greataxe (get feat), then switch to greatsword after you get a sword of shadow (or if its a TR that already has one, once you hit lvl10, or 20 if you alreayd epic'd it)

How are greataxes at all better than greatswords?!!?!

Greatswords have a higher (slightly) base damage, more crit damage (1.66x as good with crits), free proficiency, and damage boosts as a wf fvs.

[Ssmooth]

Seems to me a "melee" FvS would start max str and put all his level up points in there.

This looks like a well built caster fvs.. But calling it "melee" seems a bit wrong. You'd have some massive trouble connecting any attacks endgame in any difficult content where it might actually matter if you helped with the melee. And even vs the easy stuff you'd hit fine, your DPS would be rather terrible so you might as well be holding a vorpal, which you could do with a 12 or 14 base str just as well.

Also, Greatswords are meh. I'd level up with a greataxe (get feat), then switch to greatsword after you get a sword of shadow (or if its a TR that already has one, once you hit lvl10, or 20 if you alreayd epic'd it)

While I respect your opinion, this build plays epic content with no problem. By calling it 'melee' does not require that I start with max str and all build points into str and only melee and heal on occasion. If you read the whole post, you would see that I compared it. There is a difference of 6 str and I loose +3/+4 to-hit/damage. Not a game breaker by any means. Any fool off the street can max out str and ignore wis and be able to hit stuff. This build can fill either roll with ease. By maxing out my wisdom, I gain 6+ dc on all my spells. Yes, I have a casting mode and a tanking mode with different gear for each. If I feel I need to use one or the other, it's not a hard determination to make the switch.

Do I melee very much in epic content, not really. Can I if the oportunity arises, you bet. I have no trouble hitting Vela on a 2 on epic with PA on. I do know that there are mobs on epic I won't melee very well because of mob ac. As healer, the way I see it, healing is my main job. But when it's not my main job and I'm back up, tanking isn't an issue. In epic von 6 when it's not my turn to heal, I'm tanking. As I have never been anything but a healer in DQ epic, I'm not positive of this build's ability to hit on a 2 in there using PA.

Using GS instead of GA on a WF FvS is my choice. I get extra bonuses to-hit/damage that I don't get with a GA. I have a guildy who prefer's the GA, but his build differs from mine(alter). On a different build, max str, low wisdom, feat or no, GA is better. I simply prefer the ability to have high dc's AND be able to tank at the same time. Someday my opinion may change, but I really enjoy being able to crit in the 160's bardless with an sos(epic will be over 200), and cast BB's with a 30dc and crit for 450's. Max? No. Can some Fvs's cast crit BB's in the 600's? Can some FvS's melee crit 200+? Sure they can. But neither can do close to both with the same toon.

Bottom line is I like it and really don't care if you do or not. I just think, from what I've seen, there are very few builds like it and very few builds have the potential this one does.

[Ssmooth]

Ok, let me start from scratch why I dont believe in this build. I will try to back it up with facts and not as some ppl claim "gut feeling".

I've had this exact same discussion twice before on the EU forums and as the future has revealed I was right in both cases (this was when the cap was at 16).

1) The pally3/sorc 13. Ppl claimed this build could do all the jobs a pure sorc/wiz could do and also deal out considerable damage with their GS greataxe. So they claimed it to be a superior build. It was one of the first (if not the first) build that became known as "flavor of the month"-builds. Not really a lot of these builds kicking around now.

2) The cleric 13/monk2/ftr 1. This was the next best thing since sliced bread according to the ppl who "knew". TWF, dual GS DA's. They were claiming, "I deal massive damage and when there is need for healing I can do that as good as any pure cleric around". Same thing here, there are some of these kicking around but they never really cought on (this was also a FOTM build).

As for taking some cheapshots on my build (assumingly by myddo) and you totally didnt get the idea with the build at all. Its not a healbot, it plays pretty much like a WF wizard. Offensive casting, searing light, holy smite, MM. All those spells kill in the endgame, together with destruction, cometfall, BB and implosion. You get all that + I'm a healbot :)

Cheers,
-Daz

This is kind of funny. Your comparing multiclass builds to a max wisdom, melee, pure class build. Not sure how there is even close to a comparison. As my build can do just about anything a 'casting' FvS can do AND can melee very well, these comparisons don't even come close, besides the fact that they are 16 cap builds.

As for 'your build', what you don't see is that my build is a casting tank. When fully geared out and a 38 wis, 30 str, and close to 600 hp and 2700sp, your 'caster' won't have much that I don't have, and I'll have an entire other aspect to my character and how I can play my build that your build can never have. You won't be able to say,"Sure, I can tank Suulu!" Sure, you may get 2 dc on me, and probably a little more mana. I'm just not going to be one sided or 2 sided. Think I prefer the mena je tua: caster, healer and tank. Your endgame spells will work just as well as mine. I'll just be carrying a bigger stick and be able to use it too :).

[LawstCawz]

A better guy than thought.

[Dazalarian]

Yes, I am sure sarcasm was far beyond you. The reason was obvious. A group almost wiping in tor? Please... that begs the question of where level of skill comes in to play.


Tor? huh what?



I think you forgot the part explaining why this build cannot heal as well as your healbot, minus a few sps. Endgame these days is epic content, of which none of your listed spells are effective.


I don't belive in situational adds to ones build. I didnt say he couldn't heal as well as "my build". I think one should focus on the strengths with one's class and find ways which coinside with the build. I don't believe that adding more melee power to a class which has melee as a second tier ability is the way to go.



Not sure why you made an off comment directed at me to begin with. You don't need more people in this to prove you wrong. You do it all by yourself.


I'm sorry you felt singled out by the "gut feeling" comment, it wasnt directed at you personally. There were several posts stating I should back my ideas with pure fact and numbers.

There is no understatement that my harsh comments in this thread has made things a bit infected here so my appologies to all the offended parties.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Ssmooth]

Updated for current stats/gear.

[soloman]

Well beat her up if you must but I am having tons of fun with my 32 pt elf FVS build. I gotter planned as 12 fvs 6 ranger 2 monk and so far shes coming along well. Check her out:D