Too late to save my rogue?

[LadyBernkastel]

Having joined the game with absolutely no knowledge of D&D, I found myself at first, lulled into being picking one of the premade builds. Naturally, that didn't work out too well, and I was forced to reroll afterwards since I found myself largely useless in a party. The second time around, I consulted with a friend of mine who was relatively experienced with tabletop D&D, to create this character:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Imianton Shadowguard
Level 7 Chaotic Neutral Elf Female
(7 Rogue)
Hit Points: 62
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 5\5\10
Fortitude: 2
Reflex: 11
Will: 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 7)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 19 23
Constitution 10 10
Intelligence 16 16
Wisdom 9 9
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 7)
Balance 7 14
Bluff 3 9
Concentration 0 0
Diplomacy 3 9
Disable Device 7 14
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 8 15
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump -1 -1
Listen 3 10
Move Silently 8 15
Open Lock 8 16
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 3
Search 7 16
Spot 3 10
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 3 14

{\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Hat of Haggling \par Pathfinder's Necklace \par Zizoo's Spangle \par Cloak of Elvenkind \par Ogre Power Belt of Lesser False Life \par Health Ring of Eloquence \par Dexterous Gloves of Disabling \par Pathfinder's Boots \par Spear Bane \par +2 Mithral Chain Shirt \par Clever Goggles of Minute Seeing \par +3 Rapier \par +2 True Chaos Shortsword \par \par Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II




However, as I hit level 7, and began doing some of the late F2P quests... I've begun to found myself becoming more and more useless in quests once again. Is there anyway to save my rogue without rerolling? (Level 7, 28 point build...) Was looking at some of the tempest/assassin builds...but I'm not sure if I can still use them since I'm already level 7. Could someone please look over my character and tell me if I can save it still? ^^;; I'd appreciate it a lot.

Thanks in advance!

[Shishizaru]

Three comments:

1) Keep in mind that STR still determines damage, even with Weapon Finesse. All Weapon Finesse does is use DEX for your to-hit. So with 8 STR, you may find yourself hitting often, but hitting for very low damage.

2) 10 CON is usually not recommended. On an Elf, I believe 12 is acceptable, although you will be slightly squishy. You can rectify this, to some degree, by taking the Toughness feat and the corresponding Toughness enhancements.

3) Keep in mind the cost of raising any one stat too high. In this case, you spend a lot of points getting the last couple stat points into DEX (you're at the point where you're spending 3 build points for 1 stat point, I think). You'd likely do much better throwing those build points into other stats.

For example, you could easily take DEX down one point and raising CON to 12 and even have one build points left over. Take it down another one, and you've got a couple more points to throw into STR. (my numbers may be off though)

----

As much as I'd like to tell you it's fixable, I think you'd have a much easier time rerolling now (rather then later). If you aren't opposed to spending some money to fix him, Lesser Reincarnation will allow you to redistribute your build points without sending you back to level 1.

[Timjc86]

Your stat distribution is pretty poor, and will be very difficult to recover from. I'd reincarnate or reroll. Sorry to be bearer of bad news =(

You want a bare minimum of 12 constitution. You want to try and hit 13 strength (with tomes) even on a dex based character so you can pickup Power Attack. 16 Intelligence is unnecessary; 10-12 is more than sufficient.

You don't need dodge unless you're going for an AC build.

[LadyBernkastel]

Ouch... >.< (Back to square 1 for the third time running...seeing as I'm purely f2p and really don't have the money to spend on an reincarnation)

@Int Comment: If I'm correct, less int mod means less skills maxed right? If so, which skills, out of the ones I currently have, should I dump?

[KingOfCheese]

Ouch... >.< (Back to square 1 for the third time running...seeing as I'm purely f2p and really don't have the money to spend on an reincarnation)

@Int Comment: If I'm correct, less int mod means less skills maxed right? If so, which skills, out of the ones I currently have, should I dump?

Listen and Bluff can go.

And partial ranks in tumble are sufficient (perhaps just 1).

[unbongwah]

STR & CON are too low, base INT and DEX are too high (or at least not worth the stat cost for a pure rogue IMHO), WIS 9 is no better than WIS 8 and therefore a waste of a point (unless you happen to have an odd WIS boost item). Skills are actually not too bad, although Listen is largely pointless if you've got good Spot; Jump is more useful IMHO. I would trade Dodge for Toughness, particularly with such low CON.

I don't want to tell you your rogue is hopelessly gimped but...it might be in your best interests to either reroll or do a Lesser Reincarnate. Though first find a rogue build you like that you can follow.

[LadyBernkastel]

Right...can any recommend a good Drow DPS (that can still trapmonkey) build for a mostly F2P player (namely, no monk, 28 point build...)?

New attempt at restatting:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Imianton Luna Shadowguard
Level 1 Chaotic Good Drow Female
(1 Rogue)
Hit Points: 28
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 0
Fortitude: 2
Reflex: 6
Will: -1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 1)
Strength 14 14
Dexterity 18 18
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 1)
Balance 4 4
Bluff 0 0
Concentration 2 2
Diplomacy 4 4
Disable Device 5 5
Haggle 0 0
Heal -1 -1
Hide 8 8
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 2 2
Listen 3 5
Move Silently 8 8
Open Lock 8 8
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 1
Search 5 7
Spot 3 5
Swim 2 2
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 4 4

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I

[Shishizaru]

Ouch... >.< (Back to square 1 for the third time running...)

@Int Comment: If I'm correct, less int mod means less skills maxed right? If so, which skills, out of the ones I currently have, should I dump?

I'm probably misunderstanding the formula here, but it looks like with 12 INT, you'd have a +1 modifier (or is it +2, despite the racial bonus pushing it up?). Anyways, that looks to me like 9-10 skill points a level.

If you'd like to keep your trap skills, then the important ones I'd say would be:

1) Disable Device
2) Search
3) UMD
4) Open Lock (I heard 5 is enough, but I don't remember numbers on this one)

These are all class skills, so even if you max Open Lock every level, that's only 4 points. You'd still have at least 5 to play with.

Bluff, Spot, Hide, Move Silently are also class skills, so that's 3 more. (leaving 1 at least)

Listen I'd drop, as Spot can usually replace it's primary function. The additional DM stuff you get is hardly worth it, in my opinion.

Bluff is generally useless too. You could probably do equal (or more) damage just by swinging away in the time it takes you to actually pull a Bluff off. I guess Diplomacy is ok, but hopefully the other melee's are able to attract the attention of SOME mobs. :P

Assuming I'm not already further in the wrong here (and you opted out of Diplo), you could throw the last point into Tumble (if that's your thing) or something like Haggle.


Right...can any recommend a good Drow DPS (that can still trapmonkey) build for a mostly F2P player (namely, no monk, 28 point build...)?

The above stats look ok for a Finesse build. So you could roll with that and be ok I think. If you just want trap skills, you only need one level of rogue. If you multi-class into something like Ranger or Bard (both of which get decent amounts of points per level, 6 base to the rogues 8), you can usually keep up your trap skills just fine.

The Ranger would be eligible for Tempest III, which would give you some good DPS output. Added benefit of getting the TWF line free. The Bard wouldn't be that great DPS on his own, but the buffs would help both you and your party out a lot. If you are planning on Drow, Rapier/Shortsword benefit from Racial Enhancements are aren't far behind Khopesh in terms of damage (saving you a feat). Good rapiers do tend to be expensive though.

I THINK ranger18/rogue1/fighter1 (with rogue being first level) is viable, but I'm not sure. The most common is ranger/rogue/monk, but you're f2p so that's not an option.

Bard might look something like Bard18/Rogue2, since Bards don't get Evasion like Rangers do, so would benefit from Rogue2.

You might want to wait for someone more knowledgeable to tell you how dumb and wrong I am and give you better advice. ^^

[Timjc86]

Ouch... >.< (Back to square 1 for the third time running...seeing as I'm purely f2p and really don't have the money to spend on an reincarnation)
If it's any consolation, it's better to learn these things early. Your character will be that much better for it, although that "back to the drawing board" feeling can certainly be frustrating.


@Int Comment: If I'm correct, less int mod means less skills maxed right? If so, which skills, out of the ones I currently have, should I dump?
That's correct.

Disable Device, Search, Open Lock, and UMD are essential. Partial ranks on Open Lock will work just fine until epic content, though if you have the points to keep it maxed you might as well.

Listen or Spot help you see mobs that are stealthed; Spot will show mob outlines, Listen will show red flashes ("hot feet") when they move - Spot is superior IMO and you only need one or the other.

Hide and Move Silently can be useful if you want to sneak at all.

Jump, Balance, and Diplomacy can be useful.

I personally like Tumble a lot - it's fun.

Everything else can be dumped.

[Timjc86]

Right...can any recommend a good Drow DPS (that can still trapmonkey) build for a mostly F2P player (namely, no monk, 28 point build...)?

New attempt at restatting:
Stats look perfect. When you ask for a build, what else are you looking for?

[LadyBernkastel]

In a rogue I'm looking for: Lock Picking skills, Trap Disarming, DPS, the ability to infiltrate and pick off enemies every now and then (as I found that fun, and sneaking back to the res shrine with everyone's soul stones saved the party from a wipe once)... and...yeah. About.

[unbongwah]

Presuming you're going for a TWF Finesse-based pure-ish drow rogue aiming for Assassin III (rogue 18+):

For feats I would go with TWF, Finesse, Toughness, ITWF, IC Piercing, GTWF, and Power Attack. If you don't have monk, consider a fighter 1 splash to get an extra feat and Toughness enhancement: I would take PA early on then something else at lvl 18.

For alignment, if you aren't going monk, I would recommend True Neutral: lets you use Stability items and makes you immune to a lot of alignment-based damage. Your UMD will eventually be high enough to let you bypass race & alignment restrictions on equipment.

For skills I would definitely max Disable, Search, Spot, Open, and UMD. [Max Open isn't really necessary, but on a pure rogue I don't see any reason to shortchange it unless you're hurting for skill points.] Max Hide & MS if you want stealth; I prefer having it, but it isn't crucial, IMHO, especially in parties. [Unless you've got an all-stealth party!] It's good to have some points in Balance & Jump; maybe not max, but say 10 points or so in each. Diplomacy reduces aggro; Bluff is useful for pulling enemies but largely useless during a fight. Tumble is mostly a flavor skill, IMHO, I just put a point into it to unlock the ability, but some people like maxing it out. EDIT: AFAIK, the only time Listen is useful but Spot isn't is it lets you hear invisible creatures; not worth the points, IMHO.

If you're interested in multi-classing, that gets both a lot more interesting and a lot more complicated. :-)

[LadyBernkastel]

Thank you for the tips thus far, and yes...I am some what interested in multiclassing (currently considering tempest), although a full assassin build might not be bad either. Funny thing though, is that I used to be true neutral (on my first rogue)...but was told by someone that was bad, and ended up switching to chaotic neutral again. Will certainly consider switching back though.

Main question: Would a 13 Rogue/6 Ranger/1 Fighter build work out in doing what I want? Could I also still disarm traps/open locks effectively?

[unbongwah]

Rogue & ranger mix well because rangers have lots of skill points and there's a lot of overlap in class skills, so it's easier to maintain one's trap skills than other rogue multiclassed builds. A rogue / ranger (vs pure rogue) gives up some sneak attack damage and skill points for martial weapons proficiency, higher BAB, extra HPs, free feats (the TWF ones being the most useful), light spellcasting, and Tempest attack speed boost (if you go ranger 6). Rogue 13 / ranger 6 / monk (or fighter) 1 seems to be a fairly popular combo (e.g., Krythen (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=234381)).

One comment about Assassins: I've never made one myself, but all the posts I've seen insist that Assassin I & II suck but Assassin III is t3h win. Since it requires at least 18 rogue levels, you need to decide up front if it's what you want before multiclassing.

[Zenako]

Rogue & ranger mix well because rangers have lots of skill points and there's a lot of overlap in class skills, so it's easier to maintain one's trap skills than other rogue multiclassed builds.

One comment about Assassins: I've never made one myself, but all the posts I've seen insist that Assassin I & II suck but Assassin III is t3h win. Since it requires at least 18 rogue levels, you need to decide up front if it's what you want before multiclassing.

I would not say Assassin 1 exactly sucks. It is not hugely game changing for sure, but it does give some nice effects on sneak attack hits that can be very useful in some circumstances. (Like preventing spell casting for a few seconds, things like that, if your party gives you a chance to pull it off.)

Rogue and Ranger synergize very well.

One thing that was not as clear is how you enjoy playing. Are you mostly a party person or someone who plays solo a lot ? The reason I ask is that a pure rogue can solo, but it presents extra challenges since you become a LOT more effective if you have a teammate to work with (it could be a hireling or a summoned monster as well).

The real impact of low strength will not be felt until higher level quests where more and more monsters have some DR to get past. Your Sneak Attack damage can offset a LOT of missing STR if you are able to bring it into play a lot.

[LadyBernkastel]

I'm mainly a party person, as I don't really see the point of soloing in a game based off of Dungeons and Dragons (which is all about party play really)...But essentially, I prefer working together with a group to clear a dungeon, over trekking through it by myself.

[Angar]

Okay, based on the fact that you are primarily interested in being in a party and don't have a particular preference to whether you are a trapmonkey or an assassin, here are my opinions.

First, I think you are on the right track with stats. Personally I would go 12 str in favor of more int. Skill points, all trap abilities, and assassination modifiers are all INT based. So many people play their 20th level rogues as pure melee dps (holding aggro) that the best skills and abilities of the rogue are often overlooked. Believe me, 1 point of damage is NOT game changing, but 22 points of skills can really help.

Second, I would never sacrifice SPOT as a skill for a rogue. Unless you seriously gimp your INT, you won't have to, but spot is your ability to sense traps. What the heck kind of rogue are you if you can't sense danger? You will need that score maxed to do end game elite quests. Sure, there are ways around most elite traps in the game, the least of which is just dying and res'ing on the other side. However, I prefer to disarm traps as I go, not get around them or wait for the fighter to charge ahead and trigger the traps. Besides, end game is not what it is always about.. some people like to actually play all the content rather than rush to the end and have the best toon for shroud and ToD.

Third, Bluff is an incredibly useful skill if used properly. It is the ONLY way to pull a single mob from a group without getting aggro from the whole group. Unless you are only about zerging and going in "oriental style" on all quests, bluff can be a great way to save the healer some SP. It is also very useful when soloing, particularly in conjunction with assassinate and stealth.

Fourth, Assassin is great, and there is nothing I love more than assassinating a mob. To be effective at end game, however, you have to get your INT up. It is tough to assassinate orthons, but a decent INT score can get you there. On a 32 point halfling build, I have a base 16 int, +2 tome, and +6 item, but still manage to have 16 con and get to 380 hp at level 20 without a GS hp item. 14 con sacrifices 20 hp and a point of fortitude save.. big deal.

Fifth, unless you can get 56+ AC self buffed, you might as well have 0 AC. Sure, 34 AC is great at level 10, but don't bother with Dodge or TWD as feats. Take Toughness and maybe Power Attack. The only issue I have with PA is even with a +36 base to-hit on my first swing, with PA I miss way too often to make it useful at end game. It is good for portals, and not much else, IMHO. Some will disagree, but I was very disappointed after swapping that feat.

Sixth, if you don't want to re-roll, you can salvage your toon. You will need a +2 tome for Con, and understand that you will never be the most optimal build, but I got to 19 with a build not that far off from yours (more str, a little less dex). All you have to do is realize that your strength comes from sneak attacks, not having aggro. In the end you will probably want to reincarnate or start over, and if your concern is end game, probably a good idea to just start over now. If you really don't care about what happens down the road, I say play the game and rely on your strengths, not your weaknesses.

Seventh, rogues are all about weapon sets. You don't have high front end damage, so you have to rely on weapon selection. At your level, just finding good, high + weapons with elemental damage is key, along with a holy of pure good. Later, you will want to have disruptors, smiters, banishers, and possibly vorpals. Having holy, frost, fire, and acid weapons is almost mandatory, and familiarizing yourself with what DR various bosses have is a good idea as well. Bane weapons are key with undead and constructs. Pure good brings up the next point:

Eighth: Go neutral good. Pure Good weapons add an average of 4 points damage to every swing and can be on just about any weapon. That is free damage that can greatly offset your lack of STR based damage. If you go neutral, you lock yourself out of those weapons, at least until your UMD is high enough to bypass it. If you are lawful, then anarchic weapons will delevel you, and a huge chunk of end game mobs are lawful evil outsiders. The one arguing point here is that evil damage will hit you if you are good. Personally I have yet to see a major issue with this that is not offset by the larger damage output.

Ninth: You are not set in stone when deciding PrE's. Start with mechanic. It not only makes you the most effective on traps throughout the majority of quests where traps are important, but also gives you some ability to smite constructs, something that can be useful to mobs you otherwise can't do much too.. You can change over to assassin later on when you can better take advantage of the abilities.

I loved playing my rogue from level 1 to 19, but find that in the end he is not as fun to play as a caster or pure fighter, just because so much end game is focused on DPS and zerging over strategy and ability. At the same time, he is perfectly capable in any group.

[Artos_Fabril]

Okay, based on the fact that you are primarily interested in being in a party and don't have a particular preference to whether you are a trapmonkey or an assassin, here are my opinions.

First, I think you are on the right track with stats. Personally I would go 12 str in favor of more int. Skill points, all trap abilities, and assassination modifiers are all INT based. So many people play their 20th level rogues as pure melee dps (holding aggro) that the best skills and abilities of the rogue are often overlooked. Believe me, 1 point of damage is NOT game changing, but 22 points of skills can really help.

Second, I would never sacrifice SPOT as a skill for a rogue. Unless you seriously gimp your INT, you won't have to, but spot is your ability to sense traps. What the heck kind of rogue are you if you can't sense danger? You will need that score maxed to do end game elite quests. Sure, there are ways around most elite traps in the game, the least of which is just dying and res'ing on the other side. However, I prefer to disarm traps as I go, not get around them or wait for the fighter to charge ahead and trigger the traps. Besides, end game is not what it is always about.. some people like to actually play all the content rather than rush to the end and have the best toon for shroud and ToD.

Third, Bluff is an incredibly useful skill if used properly. It is the ONLY way to pull a single mob from a group without getting aggro from the whole group. Unless you are only about zerging and going in "oriental style" on all quests, bluff can be a great way to save the healer some SP. It is also very useful when soloing, particularly in conjunction with assassinate and stealth.

Eighth: Go neutral good. Pure Good weapons add an average of 4 points damage to every swing and can be on just about any weapon. That is free damage that can greatly offset your lack of STR based damage. If you go neutral, you lock yourself out of those weapons, at least until your UMD is high enough to bypass it. If you are lawful, then anarchic weapons will delevel you, and a huge chunk of end game mobs are lawful evil outsiders. The one arguing point here is that evil damage will hit you if you are good. Personally I have yet to see a major issue with this that is not offset by the larger damage output.

I loved playing my rogue from level 1 to 19, but find that in the end he is not as fun to play as a caster or pure fighter, just because so much end game is focused on DPS and zerging over strategy and ability. At the same time, he is perfectly capable in any group.
Man, way to soapbox! Seriously, even points I agree with you on, I think you're overstating, or maybe outright troll-baiting.

First: with 10 skill points a level, what are you sacrificing by not having 11?
10 points gets you UMD, DD, spot, search, OL, balance, diplo, hide, MS, and a split between tumble and jump, or tumble jump and haggle. You lose bluff and 1 point of assassination DC, or you can swap out hide and MS to max bluff and haggle, or whatever, you're not really hurting for skill points.

Second: Spot is great, especially for a first character, but if the fighter wants to zerg ahead and set off traps, all you can do is pick up is stone and put it in your pocket.

Third: If you want to use bluff, you either have to solo (which you said you don't want), or find a group that's willing to let you. Plan A in DDO (at least in PuGs) is almost always to run in swinging. If plan A fails, maybe you can get the group to try Plan B.

Eighth: Pure good is nice, and the only alternative at low levels is holy, which is prohibitively expensive for a new character and not as universally useful. True chaos, on the other hand, is a viable alternative to anarchic since you'll have plenty of UMD by the time you start duking it out with devils, and it won't de-level you. When evil aligned damage starts showing up, you also have enough UMD for pure-good anyway, and there are a few items that being good locks out or renders moot (litany isn't helping if you take a negative level to equip it. :P )

Just a little bit of the opposition view.

A special note about point 6: If the character is fun for you, you might want to stick with it. If you run it up to 20 you can TR and make a more optimal build, with a lot of hand-me-down twinkage, like those weapon sets Angarr was talking about, and maybe some greeensteel.