Quest kill count - how does it work ?

[cmanton]

Is this count incremented on the killing blow? Or is it the largest % of damage ? Or something else ?

Seems to be a fairly useless metric as it doesn't take into full account healing, CC or AoE.

In my experience AoE tends to reduce the damage of mobs so tank gets kill. Maybe because the tank tends to get multiple blows in between AoE ticks.

[Agrivail]

It's all about the killing blow, nothing else matters as far as kill count is concerned

[stainer]

Is this count incremented on the killing blow? Or is it the largest % of damage ? Or something else ?

Seems to be a fairly useless metric as it doesn't take into full account healing, CC or AoE.

In my experience AoE tends to reduce the damage of mobs so tank gets kill. Maybe because the tank tends to get multiple blows in between AoE ticks.

It means nothing unless you are a barbarian.

[Flintsen]

It means nothing unless you are a barbarian.

To you maybe, I still look at it as do others out there.

[Qzipoun]

It means nothing unless you are a barbarian.

It means a lot even if you're a gimp halfling healbot. You just need to understand what the stats say depending on the quest/party makeup

[stainer]

To you maybe, I still look at it as do others out there.

I was trying at sarcasm. I failed.

[Flintsen]

It means a lot even if you're a gimp halfling healbot. You just need to understand what the stats say depending on the quest/party makeup

Exactly if you're a pure 13 barbarian and can't manage but 10 kills in madstone to my FVS' 90 kills please re-roll. PS without BB

[Lerincho]

Kill count is purely who got the last swing in. Nothing useful at all.

[Zaodan]

Kill count has the following effect:
- If you're the healer, you know who needs the most healing
- If you're a dps character, you know who's lead to follow so you don't get agro on yourself
- If you're a caster or bard, you know who to buff

[Cylinwolf]

Kill count has the following effect:
- If you're the healer, you know who needs the most healing
- If you're a dps character, you know who's lead to follow so you don't get agro on yourself
- If you're a caster or bard, you know who to buff

-Because that rogue getting off burst sneak attack damage for the killing blow translates equally and perfectly to the character with the highest DPS.
-Really? Really?
-Why aren't you buffing the entire party and getting the entire quest done quicker by increasing everyone's DPS?

I'm not gonna say kill count is absolutely worthless because when you have a 200-monster spread broken down into 90, 90, 20 from three melee DPS there is probably something wrong with that third melee, but when it comes down to something closer to 80, 70, 50 then there's probably nothing wrong with all three of them and they all deserve attention.

[Lerincho]

Kill count has the following effect:
- If you're the healer, you know who needs the most healing if this is how you are judging who needs healing, probably a few dead people in pockets
- If you're a dps character, you know who's lead to follow so you don't get agro on yourself
wouldn't it just alert the high DPS character who is kill stealing?
- If you're a caster or bard, you know who to buff

you buff based on kill count? really?

[TiberiusofTyr]

I was trying at sarcasm. I failed.

Not really. I associated a name with your previous statement so it wasn't a total loss.

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Does anyone really care? I mean other than for bragging rights. Apparently my 20 monk is generally the leader in the kill count but if you think about it I attack the fastest and get the most swings in (unless theres another monk)so I should lead teh kill count. By the time I finish one creature off and move to the next one that some other melee is workin I can come up and get the killing blow on that one then move to the next, etc.
Of course the only time I generally find out that I maleading the kill count is generally when someone else tells me. Usually in the form of "Holy ****! *** how am I 30 kills behind the monk?" At which point I will generally check and respond "neener neener neener"

[Shishizaru]

Does anyone really care? I mean other than for bragging rights. Apparently my 20 monk is generally the leader in the kill count but if you think about it I attack the fastest and get the most swings in (unless theres another monk)so I should lead teh kill count. By the time I finish one creature off and move to the next one that some other melee is workin I can come up and get the killing blow on that one then move to the next, etc.
Of course the only time I generally find out that I maleading the kill count is generally when someone else tells me. Usually in the form of "Holy ****! *** how am I 30 kills behind the monk?" At which point I will generally check and respond "neener neener neener"

It's kind of the same for Pally's. Why do you think we use Divine Sacrifice on injured mobs? Well, aside from the fact we spam it all the time anyways...

On a side note, the mobs I'm beating on always decide at the last moment to run through someone FW or BB, so I guess it balances out?

Anyways, it is generally a very biased measure. If you search the forums, there are a few request out there for some sort of DPS meter/counter, since that would (probably) be more informative then just straight kill count.

[SableShadow]

Kill count is purely who got the last swing in. Nothing useful at all.

Pretty much.

Rather have that pulled out, and get better combat stats (damage done, damage taken, healing done, healing taken, that sorta thing).

End of quest would be fine, given what appear to be the existing limitations.

[cardmj1]

You also have to remember that many bow rangers and rogues use stat damagers instead dps weapons so the tanks can take them down faster and the cc can take them out before they come out the other side of the wall of fire.

Kill count means nothing at all.

[Solmage]

Kill count is purely who got the last swing in. Nothing useful at all.

This is not 100% true.

* IF everyone is targeting the same types of creatures (as opposed to just one person going for the easy kills, which often are casters, making it a smart tactic),

* IF both characters are using comparative attacks, and tactics, as opposed to someone purposely sniping kills,

...then, the difference in kill counts does reflect different characters abillities to dispatch trash mobs with ease. It does not however reflect actual dps vs a single target. As an example, haste boosts and 10% permanent speed increases (ranger, paladin, fighter) would influence how quickly you vorpal. but a barbarian hitting slower but harder may still have higher overall dps. (In reality, it'll be gear and build dependant)

...having said all this, if you join a group and you see the one caster or melee having 120 kills, all other members of the party having 5 or under, and you don't realize that those other melees or casters are, in fact, just coasting through the quest at that person's expense, and that their only contribution is to soak up healing mana...

[Superspeed_Hi5]

You also have to remember that many bow rangers and rogues use stat damagers instead dps weapons so the tanks can take them down faster and the cc can take them out before they come out the other side of the wall of fire.

Kill count means nothing at all.

+ Vorpals, Banishers, Disruptors, Smiters. Any Melee worth his weight in salt has at least one of these for certain situations. So it really just lowers the need to have a kill count.

[Qzipoun]

Kill count is purely who got the last swing in. Nothing useful at all.

Actually very useful, there's tons of situations where it provides invaluable information.

For example, if you have a barbarian running aroun being a mana sponge, and a wizard running around with a greataxe and self healing, as a healer you can look at the kill count and think "ok, both these guys are hasted and buffed and using the same weapons, yet, the barbarian killed 5 things and cost me half my mana while the wizard killed 20 and I haven't had to heal him " at that point you put the barbarian's stone in your pocket

Similarly if you see someone's kill count lagging behind it is a good sign that they are piking/noobs/using the wrong weapons and you can adjust your tactics or make recommendation to them

sure, you have to be stupid to think kill count is all that matters and that more kills means better, but you'd also have to be the same to think it has no value

[SableShadow]

For example, if you have a barbarian running aroun being a mana sponge, and a wizard running around with a greataxe and self healing, as a healer you can look at the kill count and think "ok, both these guys are hasted and buffed and using the same weapons, yet, the barbarian killed 5 things and cost me half my mana while the wizard killed 20 and I haven't had to heal him " at that point you put the barbarian's stone in your pocket

Try it.

If it turns out the barb was holding all the agro so the wizzy could do his damage w/o taking damage, you'll find out right quick you made the wrong call...based on kill count.

Other meters would be much, much better without encouraging bad behavior.



sure, you have to be stupid to think kill count is all that matters and that more kills means better,


The example you gave does exactly that.


but you'd also have to be the same to think it has no value

It is what it is: the only "objective" measure of combat effectiveness we have...well, that and death count.

[Lerincho]

Actually very useful, there's tons of situations where it provides invaluable information.

For example, if you have a barbarian running aroun being a mana sponge, and a wizard running around with a greataxe and self healing, as a healer you can look at the kill count and think "ok, both these guys are hasted and buffed and using the same weapons, yet, the barbarian killed 5 things and cost me half my mana while the wizard killed 20 and I haven't had to heal him " at that point you put the barbarian's stone in your pocket
Really? You don't think it's because all the anger/hate that the barbarian causes amongst the mob that makes it so easy for the caster has little to no agro, isn't more important than kill count?

Similarly if you see someone's kill count lagging behind it is a good sign that they are piking/noobs/using the wrong weapons and you can adjust your tactics or make recommendation to them
Really? So the person using DPS weapons versus someone using banisher/disruptor/vorpal is piking because someone else's die happen to be friendlier that day?

sure, you have to be stupid to think kill count is all that matters and that more kills means better, but you'd also have to be the same to think it has no value

/just sayin.

[cardmj1]

+ Vorpals, Banishers, Disruptors, Smiters. Any Melee worth his weight in salt has at least one of these for certain situations. So it really just lowers the need to have a kill count.

Yep, those too. :D

Did you also know that a cleric healing undead to death does not go on the kill count! Sad, but true.

[Ystradmynach]

Pretty much.

Rather have that pulled out, and get better combat stats (damage done, damage taken, healing done, healing taken, that sorta thing).

End of quest would be fine, given what appear to be the existing limitations.

But even improved combat stats wouldn't take into account buffs, debuffs, aggro, charmed monsters, the effect of summoned minions, strategic targeting, and so on. I'm fine with the stats as they are now, if you want more information than that, all you have to do is look what is going on during the quest instead of relying on somewhat meaningless collected statistics.

[SableShadow]

But even improved combat stats wouldn't take into account buffs, debuffs, aggro, charmed monsters, the effect of summoned minions, strategic targeting, and so on.

I said "better" not "end all, be all".


I'm fine with the stats as they are now, if you want more information than that, all you have to do is look what is going on during the quest instead of relying on somewhat meaningless collected statistics.

Sure. I wouldn't mind simply pulling kill count out entirely...it encourages more bad behavior (maxing kill count) over good behavior (getting the quest done).

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Yep, those too. :D

Did you also know that a cleric healing undead to death does not go on the kill count! Sad, but true.Sure it does - it goes under miscellaneous. Same as when my Hezrou get in kills.

[Lerincho]

Sure it does - it goes under miscellaneous. Same as when my Hezrou get in kills.

believe you are referring to Mis Adventure. She seems to find her way into all quests.

[cardmj1]

believe you are referring to Mis Adventure. She seems to find her way into all quests.

That Woe-man! She has been stealin' my kills for 4 years and I am just sick and tired of her gloryhounding ways.

[DrNuegebauer]

You also have to remember that many bow rangers and rogues use stat damagers instead dps weapons so the tanks can take them down faster and the cc can take them out before they come out the other side of the wall of fire.

Kill count means nothing at all.


I think you meant to say:

You also have to remember that many bow rangers stand around with a +1 longbow and barely ever kill anything (and probably don't contribute much DPS)

Kill count means nothing at all if you're a +1 longbow tootin' weiner!

[cardmj1]

I think you meant to say:

You also have to remember that many bow rangers stand around with a +1 longbow and barely ever kill anything (and probably don't contribute much DPS)

Kill count means nothing at all if you're a +1 longbow tootin' weiner!

No, a +3 wounding of puncturing with arcane archer and many shot is what I said.

[Lerincho]

I think you meant to say:

You also have to remember that many bow rangers stand around with a +1 longbow and barely ever kill anything (and probably don't contribute much DPS)

Kill count means nothing at all if you're a +1 longbow tootin' weiner!

+1 Bow with +4 Arcane Arrows, means they are using a +4 as it takes the higher of the two and does not stack. So a +4 imbued force burst wounding longbow of puncturing essentially. forgot about that one?

[Superspeed_Hi5]

believe you are referring to Mis Adventure. She seems to find her way into all quests.

Yea thats teh girl. Mis celenous; Mis Adventure...its all the same kill stealing wench.

[LawstCawz]

Kill count is only part of the whole picture. Those who saying it doesn't matter at all are just as wrong as those saying it is the only stat that matters. Learn how to abstract info from all available data.

[Lerincho]

okay how about we add other categories then:

How many times the ranger successfully grabbed a stone of a cleric that refused to heal the ranger without being spotted by the mob that violated the cleric's body and back to ressurection shrine? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party.

How many times the monk/paladin has to successfully ressurect the cleric, because the cleric wanted in on the kill count? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party, yet how many monsters died quicker because of quivering palm, stunning fist.

How many immobilized monsters because the wiz/sorc Flesh to Stone them so that the dps could beat them easier, and clerics didn't have to watch health bars? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party.

[LawstCawz]

okay how about we add other categories then:

How many times the ranger successfully grabbed a stone of a cleric that refused to heal the ranger without being spotted by the mob that violated the cleric's body and back to ressurection shrine? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party.

How many times the monk/paladin has to successfully ressurect the cleric, because the cleric wanted in on the kill count? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party, yet how many monsters died quicker because of quivering palm, stunning fist.

How many immobilized monsters because the wiz/sorc Flesh to Stone them so that the dps could beat them easier, and clerics didn't have to watch health bars? Cleric refused to heal because kill count indicated they were not actively contributing to the party.

Most of that you can see for yourself unless you're clueless (in which case you're the parties' problem.) Like I said, you wouldn't be taking the whole picture into account.

I can SEE the wizzie FTS everything. I know he's doing his job. I can SEE that the cleric is not healing. The numbers you're asking for don't quantify to a meaningful value on its own and we're back to step 1.

A damage done/received stat would do more than any of your examples. Kill count isn't the only important stat, but saying it doesn't mean anything is just being oblivious.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

believe you are referring to Mis Adventure. She seems to find her way into all quests.

That witch steals all my kills!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Kill count is a bad indicator of contribution most of the time.

Senerio 1 - caster spams FoD, Wail, PK - gets high kill count
Senerio 2 - caster spams mass hold, flesh to stone - get no kill count

Both were contributing... and I bet the melee had a hell of a lot more fun in senerio 2.

[Frodo_Lives]

Kill count is not all that meaningful as there are a million ways that can squew the numbers.

IF you have characters that are both doing the same thing (killing stuff), the same way (DPS) and there is a very big difference in kills over multiple quests then that might tell you something.

However, the guy using a paralyzer, or intimidate/sheild blocking, stat damagers, can have a misleading kill count vs. contribution and the other guy (who actually cares about kill counts :rolleyes:) is going for every mob with a sliver of life or zerging ahead just to get a jump on the kills is going to have an inflated kill count.

You can get some useful information but it's like trying to find the dollar bill at the bottom of the outhouse. You got to go through a lot of **** to find it, and it's not really worth the effort.

[LawstCawz]

*whoosh* That is the sound of correlation and dependence going over your head. :D

[SableShadow]

*whoosh* That is the sound of correlation and dependence going over your head. :D

No, we get it. Got it a long time ago, tyvm.

There's correlation between, say, a tester's ability and the number of bugs they write per day, or a devs ability and the number of lines of code they can write per day. Yes?

Do you want to speculate, tho, on the quality of the bugs found, or code being written, if those numbers got tossed on a big board in front of the department? Better yet, tie *bonuses* to those, and see what happens? ;)

[phalaeo]

It means a lot even if you're a gimp halfling healbot. You just need to understand what the stats say depending on the quest/party makeup

Er....
Um.

Never mind.

[Vanshilar]

To get back to the original topic, the kill count is a record of who made the killing blow. Some form of a kill count (even if it's just a total kill count, rather than the current total + breakdown by character) is needed since quest experience is affected by the overall kill count.

Kill count *is* relevant if pretty much all of what your character is contributing is DPS. But like any other metric, it's not a defining measure of what each person is contributing...it's simply one of them. The guy that's paralyzing all the monsters for example may have contributed more (by making the quest progress more smoothly) even if he didn't end up leading the kill count. In the same way, having no deaths in the group doesn't necessarily mean that the healer was doing an awesome job; it could also mean that the melees knew how to crowd control and avoid taking too much damage. There's a lot more variability in what actually happens than what the numbers indicate, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Ultimately, though, the only important measure is whether or not the quest was completed.

[Deathseeker]

Kill count is only part of the whole picture. Those who saying it doesn't matter at all are just as wrong as those saying it is the only stat that matters. Learn how to abstract info from all available data.

THIS.

These killcount arguments become so silly. One person argues it's irrelevant because on one anecdotal example. The next says their example is irrelevant, and the argument goes downhill from there.

Killcount is not a statistically valid measure of anything specific other than who got more killing blows...HOWEVER...

Killcount is one piece of data one can use to infer certain things about the party. If Im on my pure DPS fighter, and another player is on his barbarian, and his killcount is twice as high as mine after 200 mobs go down, Im definitely going to start looking to see what he's doing. I may discuss his build, I may watch his playstyle, or may ask about his gear. Doesnt mean I conclude anything specifically...it's just a piece of data.

Using killcount in conjuction with general observation can be useful to understand what''s going on with a party. It isn't the end all determining factor of anything other than who got the most killing blows. But it certainly isn't useless either. It just needs to be used correctly and not overly interpreted.

[Montrose]

No, we get it. Got it a long time ago, tyvm.

There's correlation between, say, a tester's ability and the number of bugs they write per day, or a devs ability and the number of lines of code they can write per day. Yes?

Do you want to speculate, tho, on the quality of the bugs found, or code being written, if those numbers got tossed on a big board in front of the department? Better yet, tie *bonuses* to those, and see what happens? ;)

Ohhh, you've hit on a huge peeve of mine. Way OT, but I can't help it.

Bug metrics are almost univerally mis-used in testing organizations. They are fairly impossible to use as apples-to-apples comaprisons across any organization of appreciable size (let's say > 10 developers).

The number of bugs that a tester files in any given timeframe is a factor of many things, including but not limited to:
tester skill, developer skill, number of lines changed, difficulty of code change, frequency of code change, partner integration issues, hardware/software availability, amount of communication with others, and luck.

So many of those variables are outside the control of the tester, that using bug metrics as a barometer of tester skill is dangerous, at best.

When I look at my test org I do pay attention to bug metrics, but pretty much only as a gross indicator. If a tester has approximately the number of bugs that they should (my personal perception based on previous product cycles, knowledge of their peer dev, results from peer testers and from discussions with them in 1:1s) then great.

If they have a ton more than everyone else, I'll want to know why (is the dev really bad? Is there a lot of code churn? Are they filing multiple bugs for the same issue?). If they have a ton less then everyone else, I'll want to know why (is the feature area smaller than anticipated? is the dev rock-solid? Is the tester just not good?). Otherwise, it's pretty much a wash.

Ok, guess I will </soapbox>, but this topic always gets me going. :)

[SableShadow]

Ok, guess I will </soapbox>, but this topic always gets me going. :)

Same...I didn't exactly pull the examples out of thin air. ;)

[Newtons_Apple]

Chuck Norris's kill count is ∞-1.

[LawstCawz]

No, we get it. Got it a long time ago, tyvm.

There's correlation between, say, a tester's ability and the number of bugs they write per day, or a devs ability and the number of lines of code they can write per day. Yes?

Do you want to speculate, tho, on the quality of the bugs found, or code being written, if those numbers got tossed on a big board in front of the department? Better yet, tie *bonuses* to those, and see what happens? ;)

Right, comparing video games to real life? It's much easier to debate if you keep it within DDOland, although in sales it would fit your statement exactly.

You're talking about whether it affects the way people play, which it doesn't if you're in a guild or with skilled players. I replied to a post saying that it was meaningless, which is far from the truth. It just doesn't depict the whole story.

[SableShadow]

Right, comparing video games to real life? It's much easier to debate if you keep it within DDOland, although in sales it would fit your statement exactly.

I'm comparing uses and - more importantly - abuses of metrics.


You're talking about whether it affects the way people play, which it doesn't if you're in a guild or with skilled players.


Debatable. ;)


I replied to a post saying that it was meaningless, which is far from the truth. It just doesn't depict the whole story.

We can agree that some data is always more data than no data. :)

I took "meant nothing" to be a rhetorical device...just that it doesn't mean, literally, what a significant number of players think it means: a specific measure of quest contribution.

[Montrose]

We can agree that some data is always more data than no data. :)


Only for positive values of data. ;)

[lolwatboomer]

Kill count has the following effect:
- If you're the healer, you know who needs the most healing
- If you're a dps character, you know who's lead to follow so you don't get agro on yourself
- If you're a caster or bard, you know who to buff

uhhh... I don't think so

:confused:

[systemstate]

FWIW- Kill count can be totally skewed by ranged players. If you simply let the melee players beat down the mob and wait for the right moment, you can snipe at the last second and end up getting most of the kills even though you contributed little actual damage.

I would much prefer it if it showed a percentage of total damage dealt. This would be much more useful in developing my toon.

[lolwatboomer]

FWIW- Kill count can be totally skewed by ranged players. If you simply let the melee players beat down the mob and wait for the right moment, you can snipe at the last second and end up getting most of the kills even though you contributed little actual damage.

I would much prefer it if it showed a percentage of total damage dealt. This would be much more useful in developing my toon.

if I was partying with a ranger that "waited at the last moment so he can snipe mobs and get the kill", that would be the last time I would party with them. That's just lame.

on the other hand, total % of damage dealt would be quite interesting :)

[SableShadow]

if I was partying with a ranger that "waited at the last moment so he can snipe mobs and get the kill", that would be the last time I would party with them. That's just lame.

How would you tell? Other than assuming "ranged can't possibly be doing that much DPS, he must be sniping", I mean. :)


on the other hand, total % of damage dealt would be quite interesting :)

Yep.

[smatt]

Exactly if you're a pure 13 barbarian and can't manage but 10 kills in madstone to my FVS' 90 kills please re-roll. PS without BB


Can I have your autograph?

[systemstate]

if I was partying with a ranger that "waited at the last moment so he can snipe mobs and get the kill", that would be the last time I would party with them. That's just lame.

on the other hand, total % of damage dealt would be quite interesting :)

Totally agree about it being lame. I'm not aware of anyone actually doing this, but I'm sure it's been done and is being done from time to time. There are some awfully small "epeens" out there after all.

Sableshadow's right though. I'm not sure how you would be able to tell if someone was doing this. I myself quit paying attention to kill count once I realized was really just a "last hit" count.

[sigtrent]

How would you tell? Other than assuming "ranged can't possibly be doing that much DPS, he must be sniping", I mean. :)

Assuming that statement is only partly for humors sake...

You can tell because they just stand there and take shots every once in a while rather than keeping a constant stream of arrows going.

I'd be surprised if someone could really do this all that effectively. Arrows take a moment to **** and fly while melee's tend to have a constant stream of attacks going, generaly doing more damage per swing. Even with good timing you would be lucky to snipe anything unless the ration of your damage to the monsters hit points is pretty well in your favor and the melee characters are weak in their attacks.

A caster using rays can probably "kill steal" by sniping at targets with 1/4 hp to go or some such, but asside from that I'd say its hard to do.

Kill count is handy if you want to know how able and aggressive you are about killing monsters. On average those who do more damage and attack more often get more kills. I often out kill better builds purely by being aggressive about going after monsters and staying on mission. Id say anything short of 20% in kill counts is probably just the margin of error, more than that and it's a good indication X person is better at killing monsters than Y person. Of course that doesn't mean they are more valuable, but in a quest... monsters need to be killed to finish the quest so it is a pretty key piece of info.

My policy is to never talk about kill counts except with people I know very well. When I see someone that blows me away, I ask what they are doing or what gear they use so I might improve. I see someone really lagging I watch them a bit to see if I might help, but I'd never mention the counts as to why I was talking to them.

One thing I can tell from my kill counts on my melee characters is my toons tend to be very competitive in normal/hard, but on ellite my lack of raid gear shows and the same characters I beat or was even with start edging me out in kills. Its just interesting info. I'd love to see more stats but all in all its just info, in the end its easy to tell no who is doing what and what is or is not working in a group.

[ThrasherGT]

if I was partying with a ranger that "waited at the last moment so he can snipe mobs and get the kill", that would be the last time I would party with them. That's just lame.

on the other hand, total % of damage dealt would be quite interesting :)

This quote is the single best reason to get rid of individual kill counts in DDO. Why does it matter who killed what as long as the quest gets done? Total kills is more than enough data for conquest. Individual kill counts in their present form are just an E-Peen for scumbag elitists to wave their flags and say "Look How UBER I am! I led the KILL COUNT!" LMAO

[lolwatboomer]

This quote is the single best reason to get rid of individual kill counts in DDO. Why does it matter who killed what as long as the quest gets done? Total kills is more than enough data for conquest. Individual kill counts in their present form are just an E-Peen for scumbag elitists to wave their flags and say "Look How UBER I am! I led the KILL COUNT!" LMAO

I think you misinterpreted what I meant... I really don't care at all who gets the most kills, in fact I've stopped checking entirely while running quests. Only time I have that window up is to see how much XP I'm getting. What I'm saying is that if I partied with a ranger who stood around doing nothing, and instead waited for the last minute so he could get an astronomical amount of kills for his ego... then I wouldn't want to party with him or her. It's not a matter of who's getting the kill. It's a matter of who's piking and who's not. Of course the quest is going to get done, that's irrelevant. You're telling me you let people stand around and AFK, but it doesn't matter if they kill anything because "as long as the quest gets done?".

I'd rather have someone who was was a lot weaker, but pulled his weight. Honestly, whether or not they implement the amount of damage as a statistic doesn't really matter, it'd just be a novelty.

I'm just appalled that you gave me such a blunt reply. Hope you get what I meant now, systemstate and sigtrent understood... :(

EDIT: tl;dr
1. You misinterpreted what I said.
2. I don't want to have a ranger do nothing but stand there and wait for the last minute and then "snipe kills" so he can be egotistical about it.
3. I don't care about kill count, I care about whether people are doing their job.

[SableShadow]

A caster using rays can probably "kill steal" by sniping at targets with 1/4 hp to go or some such, but asside from that I'd say its hard to do.


Sounds like intelligent caster play to me. ;)



My policy is to never talk about kill counts except with people I know very well. When I see someone that blows me away, I ask what they are doing or what gear they use so I might improve. I see someone really lagging I watch them a bit to see if I might help, but I'd never mention the counts as to why I was talking to them.

All good uses for the stat. My main complaint with kill count is its zero sum nature.


I'd love to see more stats but all in all its just info, in the end its easy to tell no who is doing what and what is or is not working in a group.

Pretty much.

[ThrasherGT]

I think you misinterpreted what I meant... I really don't care at all who gets the most kills, in fact I've stopped checking entirely while running quests. Only time I have that window up is to see how much XP I'm getting. What I'm saying is that if I partied with a ranger who stood around doing nothing, and instead at the last minute waiting to snipe down guys so he could get an astronomical amount of kills for his ego... then I wouldn't want to party with him or her.

I'd rather have someone who was was a lot weaker, but pulled his weight. Honestly, whether or not they implement the amount of damage as a statistic doesn't really matter, it'd just be a novelty.

I'm just appalled that you gave me such a blunt reply. :(

I apologize for My bluntness, but unfortunately, Your sentiment seems to be widespread in DDO. The use of individual kill counts has fostered an elitist mentality that is needlessly fed by this seemingly harmless stat. I have, for at least 3 years now, advocated their removal from the game. Without them, a culture of teamwork would flourish, and simply finishing the quest would be paramount.

[lolwatboomer]

I apologize for My bluntness, but unfortunately, Your sentiment seems to be widespread in DDO. The use of individual kill counts has fostered an elitist mentality that is needlessly fed by this seemingly harmless stat. I have, for at least 3 years now, advocated their removal from the game. Without them, a culture of teamwork would flourish, and simply finishing the quest would be paramount.

You are still misunderstanding me. What you just said is exactly what I've been saying... I do not care about kill counts. I care about whether or not people are pulling their weight. If a ranger stands around doing nothing, but comes in every once in a while to snipe a guy to get a kill so he can brag about it, that is unacceptable.

The last time I cared about kill count... well I can't remember. I merely entertained the idea of having a damage dealt statistic as that would be pretty cool.

The raids and quests I do with my friends, no one comments on kill counts. Ever.

I'm agreeing with you bro, there's no need to be hostile. :o

[voidholder]

One thing I can tell from my kill counts on my melee characters is my toons tend to be very competitive in normal/hard, but on ellite my lack of raid gear shows and the same characters I beat or was even with start edging me out in kills. Its just interesting info. I'd love to see more stats but all in all its just info, in the end its easy to tell no who is doing what and what is or is not working in a group.
I noticed the same thing myself. Concluded that some reasons to that could be
- higher hitpoints mean that more kills happen from instant death effects (although this might be mitigated by better saves on elite?)
- sneak attack is worse since you can't drop the mobs while still not having aggro
- higher hitpoints mean longer exchange of blows before moving to next target, meaning the better twitch players lose some edge on elite
- more 100% fort etc special defences which hurt some fighting styles more than others

Other opinions on what changes the kill count comparison on different difficulty levels? How class balance varies?

Also, I agree that kill count can show something, but it is wise not to bring that up unless it is to compliment someone. Btw, "wow this time you had nearly as many kills as me, good job" does not count. :P

[dungan]

However, the guy using a paralyzer, or intimidate/sheild blocking, stat damagers, can have a misleading kill count vs. contribution and the other guy (who actually cares about kill counts :rolleyes:) is going for every mob with a sliver of life or zerging ahead just to get a jump on the kills is going to have an inflated kill count.



Was thinking the same thing. I took my tank on a guild run in Amarth. I'd intim and turtle up, I got a few kills here and there, but the healer was only needing to heal me, made the quests much easier.

Kill count didn't mean a thing at the end of the quest.

[Razcar]

Sure. I wouldn't mind simply pulling kill count out entirely...it encourages more bad behavior (maxing kill count) over good behavior (getting the quest done).
I agree. Even though I find Kill Count a little fun to check sometimes, I can't find any real use for it, even when I'm playing a healer. You can clearly see who is contributing the most (and the opposite) by just looking at what the players are doing.

The barbarian who trips one mob being attacked by a party mate, moves to another and stuns it, then moves to a third and attacks that one contributes more than the ranged ranger tabbing through mobs to find low-hp ones to kill off. The ranger in that example might get more kills than the barb but is actually contributing less to the overall success.

Likewise that ranged character might contribute more when using a paralysing bow in a GH quest than the barb that runs ahead and aggroes too many mobs at once, making the healer having to concentrate on him. The barb will get more kills but makes the quest more difficult.

So the use of it is questionable at best. Either replace it with useful and detailed stat, or you might as well loose it altogether. Too many times when levelling up my newest halfling rogue have I seen melees getting stressed because I'm leading the kill count, and starting to play badly and dangerously to try to "fix it". And the healers end up getting to pay the price for their vanity.

[Poffel]

The use of individual kill counts has fostered an elitist mentality that is needlessly fed by this seemingly harmless stat.Sorry, but I have to vehemently disagree. Of course, I can only speak from my own experience, but so far I have only once seen someone get mocked because of a lack of kills. Oh, and I pugged with some semi-roleplayers once who put up the Legolas-Gimli rivalry all the time, so if you count that, it would be twice.

As far as I can tell, kill count only gets looked at in easy quests anyway. If a quest is even moderatly hard, people are too busy killing stuff and thus don't have time to worry about their scores.

[ThrasherGT]

Sorry, but I have to vehemently disagree. Of course, I can only speak from my own experience, but so far I have only once seen someone get mocked because of a lack of kills. Oh, and I pugged with some semi-roleplayers once who put up the Legolas-Gimli rivalry all the time, so if you count that, it would be twice.

As far as I can tell, kill count only gets looked at in easy quests anyway. If a quest is even moderatly hard, people are too busy killing stuff and thus don't have time to worry about their scores.

Sorry, but You missed the point. It's not what players say, it's how they approach a quest and the "tactics" they use to get it done. Many players use the stat as a yardstick for who is "better" at DDO. Trust Me, A LOT of players MIS-use this stat to the detriment of the game.

[woundweaver]

kill count means nothing but amusement. a barb can beat something to 2 hp's, and a bard or caster can cast a spell that requires a save, said monster makes save, damage reduced to half, and still get the kill. only when i see someone is 40-60 kills ahead do i say wow, and find out why. maybe watch said toon in action. find some good builds that way, but other than that, kill count is a waste of time to be looking at when you could be killing something, or stealing kills at the least