PvP, Stupid posts go here.

[Bracosius]

I think PvP can be improved and does have a place in DDO.

Those closed minded folks that always want to reply "I will quit, it will ruin the game, blah, ****, garbage." Go ahead and stop reading and post now, otherwise you will be subject to more opinions you may not agree with and I don't want to shake your world too much.

I think PvP can be improved and in no way affect PvE or demand any changes now or in the future with regard to class balancing. I do agree that class balancing would be the biggest reason NOT to improve PvP if the devs felt it would be necessary.

I would like to see PvP on a large scale. 20 vs 20. Or at the minimum 12 vs 12, a standard raid group. Class balance only becomes an issue in PvP if you are fighting 1 vs 1. If both sides have healers, casters, melee, etc. Then both sides have an equal oppurtunity to win the fight.

DDO already has the basis for this set up in the instanced tavern brawls. I think if this was expanded upon it would create another enjoyable part of the game.

I would like to be able to enter an instance PvP que from anyplace, not just in the tavern. I would like to remain in the que when I leave a tavern.

I would like to pre-make my team using the current grouping system. I would like to fight against an opposing group that is the same number of people and within the same lvl range.

(Drum Roll) I also would like to see rewards for participating in PvP. :eek: I do believe those rewards should only be usable in PvP or visual rewards that have no effect on the PvE side of the game.

I have not thought out a detailed system of how all this should work, etc. I am just thinking of something that would make the game more enjoyable for me.

Let's admit, 30 minute elite shroud runs can be fun, but it wouldn't beat crushing Gunga in PvP and then bragging about it for months.

Yes, you will have people that stroke thier e-peen on PvP. So what. If the rewards do not have any effect on the PvE, then you can choose to not participate and lose nothing.

If your response is going to be that you don't want dev time wasted on PvP and you actually read this far, who cares. The game is not made only for you. Suck it up and make a whiny forum post like the rest of us.

[Chai]

My post from the other PVP thread:

1. DDO is not WOW. I dont have a WOW account, I have a life.

2. PVP games suck for PVE. in all the PVP based games, 90% of the zones that didnt come with the current expansion are deserted. Sucks being a new player in that environment.

3. Class balance issue patches every 2 weeks are lame. People cry that their class is gimped because they cant win in PVP, - then when its changed everyone else crys that the class is overpowered. Sucks in PVE when I am raiding and one week I am an awesome raid healer and the next week I cant keep a blade of grass standing up straight due to nerfing a character I worked on for 2 years.

4. I dont want to farm gear for PVE and PVP and have 2 or more different complete suits of gear hanging around. The level of farming DDO has is already high enough for people that dont play video games 16 hours a day. I also dont want to create specific builds for PVP and specific builds for PVE.

5. PVP is just another schwantz waving contest. If it is put into the game in any other place than the taverns, you will have people at max level greening newbie toons. EQ tried to solve this where they put a 5 level spread into the game and it just made it so that the level 15 twinked as all get up PKers were PVPing in zones where the level 10s and 11s hang out, etc.

No Ty. No need to add PVP focus to this game.

[Ninetoes]

How would you balance the multitude of player abilities that make it impossible to actually play competitively? Assuming you have "large" groups (12, 20, what have you), it's a given that not EVERYONE is going to have hugely damaging abilities, and those that do will die eventually: BUT...that's not really any fun. I reference AoC and W.A.R as perfect examples of games that were tooled to be PvP heavy games, but ultimately fell flat because half of the classes had grossly overpowered abilities, and half did not. Neither of these games were fun if you weren't playing a class with insane damage output or nutty crowd control.

The game just isn't set up for honest, enjoyable PvP where strategy and teamwork come into play. Do you honestly expect them to write a whole bunch of rules that are ONLY applicable in brawl situations?

[Shassa]

My solutions:

1) Don't balance anything at all. Make every spell and skill work as intended just as it does in a PvE environment. Don't like it? Feel disadvantaged? Fine, don't do it or design a character with PvP in mind. PvP isn't about being fair. It's about kill or be killed. Put up or shut up.

1b) Because there's no tinkering with abilities, there's no reason for the PvE crowd to resist the changes. Because there aren't any.

2) Come up with one clever quest where two teams can enter simultaneously from different entry points and compete to finish it first. Mix up the objectives, there should be areas exclusive to each side with traps, puzzles with random elements to solve, an area that requires good twitch skills, and NPC interactions that benefit people with high CHA-based skills. Some sort of magic field keeps you from entering the other team's areas for those challenges, but there will be crossover areas (chokepoints) where both teams can enter and do direct combat.

3) I don't even think it's necessary to give out rewards, really. It's sorta like Permadeath, you are either enjoying yourself or you're not. People will set up their own tournaments and rewards, and keep track of their own stats, trust me.

[Return_To_Forever]

My post from the other PVP thread:

1. DDO is not WOW. I dont have a WOW account, I have a life. - Sry not sure what you are talking about here.

2. PVP games suck for PVE. in all the PVP based games, 90% of the zones that didnt come with the current expansion are deserted. Sucks being a new player in that environment. - Again not sure how this has any bearing here. this is not a PVP game, at most we are asking that it be a PVE game with some nice PVP options.

3. Class balance issue patches every 2 weeks are lame. People cry that their class is gimped because they cant win in PVP, - then when its changed everyone else crys that the class is overpowered. Sucks in PVE when I am raiding and one week I am an awesome raid healer and the next week I cant keep a blade of grass standing up straight due to nerfing a character I worked on for 2 years. - Yeh not sure what the issue is here with understanding we don't want it to effect PVE balance. It seems like you are sighting balance that takes place in PVP focused games.

4. I dont want to farm gear for PVE and PVP and have 2 or more different complete suits of gear hanging around. The level of farming DDO has is already high enough for people that dont play video games 16 hours a day. I also dont want to create specific builds for PVP and specific builds for PVE.- If you do not like PVP then you don't have to farm for it do you? If you do like PVP then isn't it worth it?

5. PVP is just another schwantz waving contest. If it is put into the game in any other place than the taverns, you will have people at max level greening newbie toons. EQ tried to solve this where they put a 5 level spread into the game and it just made it so that the level 15 twinked as all get up PKers were PVPing in zones where the level 10s and 11s hang out, etc. - This is something that should always be kept in mind, and it was broguht up in the OP. As far as the Schwantz comment, its just silly, using this line of thinking, everything that involves competition would be "just" a schwantz waving contest.

No Ty. No need to add PVP focus to this game. - No one is asking for it to be the focus, just an aspect.

resp in red

[Bracosius]

Chai- Thank You for proving to me that I chose the correct title for my thread.

Shassa and Return understand exactly what I am proposing.

Ninetoes- there should be no balancing, if your team keeps getting hosed by the Sorcs, log your own on and even the field. Or find another way to beat them. Or don't participate at all. Seems easy enough.

[jcTharin]

i have said this before and i will say it again

PvP needs one thing and one thing only.

more people like me

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=237585

that up there is how you should play PvP in this game

on an slightly unrelated note, i restate my declaration that i declare myself as king of PvP. because by my standards i have never lost in PvP. even when i get knocked down to -500 hp, i have still won.

[KKDragonLord]

First i'd like to say i dont like PvP and i think i never will based on my past experience with it on MMOs.

Granted, i do like competitive play games such as Counter Strike (and the like) and even a bit of DotA, although only in a very watered down version called Demigod which is DotA for dummies like myself, that dont require complete hardcore training to succeed.

I even liked what Relic did with Dawn of War 2 combining Hero Siege with RTS, even if i enjoyed the first game a lot more, although i don't enjoy RTS PvP becuz its too much work for my little brain.

So yeah, i understand completely the unique excitement of Pwning N00bz for being so L337, along with the very stressful 90% of the time when things aren't going perfectly. Even in more fun directed games such as Unreal with its several options for group play tensions can rise when you hit a bad streak.

I will admit that what attracted me to DDO, was that it was Different. And thats because i have a strict policy against MMOs in general after wasting my time in a few of them (and because i really can't accept the concept of a subscription).

At first the greatest selling point was that it was D&D, a system i had mastered and i knew i could do well in it, not to mention how the familiarity goes a long way. But what made me stay was the very focus on PvE, and the non-boring action combat ofc.


Despite all that, there is an argument to be made about PvP if we consider it should follows some basic logical steps, mostly covered in the OP.

1) Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it.

It is practically impossible to give the same hardcore experience through an AI and with PvE quest design. (exceptions to this would be the Guano Derangement of Ultra-hardcore games such as scrolling shooters and platformers like some of the Megaman titles).

2) It can be inserted into DDO, but to not screw up the whole game it would certainly require it to follow its own set of rules appart from PvE, and these rules would require constant tweaking to fine tune the balance. (as it is with every PvP centric game, from RTS to FPS)

3)People who dont want to have anything to do with it, will be able to ignore it completely, the differentiated rewards for it would be irrelevant then, since they would be exclusive to PvP and would not affect PvE.

4)Who decides what the Devs time should be worked on or not are the Devs (this realization hit me hard very recently), If they believe they can invest into adding and supporting PvP, and that this will bring a big enough benefit to their revenue, they will do so. (and this order will probably come from the top)

They will certainly only do it though if they find a way to not affect, or screw up too much, the development required for PvE (aka the rest of the Game). So if they consider important enough, they will invest into expanding their development team to support PvP and PvE at the same time.

so... lets review these statements:


My post from the other PVP thread:

1. DDO is not WOW. I dont have a WOW account, I have a life.

This is true, and while WoW has 11.5 million players, we have 1 million (or most likely a quarter of that)
If PvP attracs another 1 million, guess what Turbine will have to do, to support its investors (and their own families)?
Also, DDO is not as grindtastic as WoW (yet) and its very nature allows for quick and meaningful play. None of this relates to PvP though. And if Turbine does PvP, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be as Grindtastic as in WoW, and even if it is close to it, guess what, you wont have to play it.


2. PVP games suck for PVE. in all the PVP based games, 90% of the zones that didnt come with the current expansion are deserted. Sucks being a new player in that environment.

The Zones you are talking about aren't necessarily going to be following the same patterns from other MMOs, if we have PvP sectored by Levels, such as, PVP Lvls 1-3/4-6/7-9, in a Featherweight/lightweight/heavyweight kind of split, the way DDO works, with people TRing and making a dozen toons, i think very unlikely for the player distribution to be quite so uneven as you suggest.


3. Class balance issue patches every 2 weeks are lame. People cry that their class is gimped because they cant win in PVP, - then when its changed everyone else crys that the class is overpowered. Sucks in PVE when I am raiding and one week I am an awesome raid healer and the next week I cant keep a blade of grass standing up straight due to nerfing a character I worked on for 2 years.

Class balance patches for PvP will not affect PvE if they only make changes to PvP, but it is very possible that Turbine will learn a lot about how to make changes to the combat system to make it more challenging and this would have a positive impact upon PvE (with its own adjustments ofc). So, if you think constant patching is lame, avoid PvP, and you can rest easy, dealing only with the monthly patches from the bimester updates.


4. I dont want to farm gear for PVE and PVP and have 2 or more different complete suits of gear hanging around. The level of farming DDO has is already high enough for people that dont play video games 16 hours a day. I also dont want to create specific builds for PVP and specific builds for PVE.
If you dont play PvP, as you claim, You won't have to. No one will force you to do it.


5. PVP is just another schwantz waving contest. If it is put into the game in any other place than the taverns, you will have people at max level greening newbie toons. EQ tried to solve this where they put a 5 level spread into the game and it just made it so that the level 15 twinked as all get up PKers were PVPing in zones where the level 10s and 11s hang out, etc.

It IS a Schwang waving contest, and guess what, thats exactly what makes competitive gaming, and sports around the world, So Very Successful. Despite its negative side effects, it Brings Filthy Lucre! Its so very unfair i think, that there are football players out there making millions because people enjoy bragging about the performance of their team, (obviously, there are many more unfair enrichment industries out there as well).

But the point is, The Schwang is omnipresent. IT feeds our instincts, its based on the notion that all of us want to believe in, that we are special somehow, that we are worth more than others, that we are better than animals, that we are better period. This is the kind of impulse that makes trillions of dollars every year.

We give way more importance and money and time to these things, than we do to truly important things, such as politics and the rest of the world who don't have the time to think about this because they have to focus on subsistence and survival...

erhm... sorry... got carried away there.

but, the fact is, Schawngs are Golden!



No Ty. No need to add PVP focus to this game.

Turbine is smart enough to not make the mistake of throwing away the customer base they have on hand in the hopes to draw the attention of a customer base they might get, and that will be very hard earned in an industry saturated with other options for PvP.

They can give Some love for PvP, but that would be an added bonus to appease to a mass of players that is not interested enough in the PvE aspects of the game. They will not be stupid enough to scare away the PvE crowd when they can keep them separate and benefit from both.

I am not defending PvP here, i am just using logic and reason to reach the core of the issue.

And there is a very very small chance that Turbine can make PvP be so very good that even i will be interested on achieving and displaying my Ub3R L337 SKkillz in the same way i enjoy playing Counter Strike.

But i dont think thats actually possible. The best Action games, like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Powerstone and to some extent, God of War (solely in the playability aspect), or even, stretching a bit, 3D environment fighting games. They rely very heavily in player skill but are not bound by roleplaying game system rules.

There is promise in other fronts though, in castle siege games such as Fat Princess, and objective driven multiplayer modes from games such as third person shooters, like MAG, or even some obscure Strategy MP FPS like Natural Selection.

They can seek inspiration on pretty much, every good and successful pvp centric multiplayer game out there, not excluding tactical miniature games, puzzle games, and what have you.

But i don't really expect much from it. PvP in most MMOs is simply, throw them in a pit and wait for one of them to die, (even if its like lots of people in a really big pit).

All in all, im with Turbine, as long as they don't mess up PvE.

[Garbudo]

Easy to get some people to pvp if you have some loot if they win, I use my pally get a raid group of lvl 7-14 or so and have them take me on if they win roll a d100 take whats on my loot table.

[gavagai]

I don't think Turbine will ever be able to create an alternative combat system to make PvP fun. Most of the excitement of PvP is optimizing a character in game that serves a function in PvP; insofar that an alternate system will turn "your" character into a different character, it won't be as fun.

And players will of course claim that they would have pwned the other if it hadn't been for x difference in the combat system.

I don't have any desire for PvP in DDO. However, to be constructive here's an idea:

I think the only way PvP and DDO would go together in a "fun" way would be to have quests or battlegrounds where each party had a non-PvP objective to accomplish, and which involved PvE as well. Call it "The Siege" -- you're saving a Kundarak banker's daughter from Gnolls, or some such. One party could opt to dedicate its time to interfering with the other party with PvP; while another party could focus on the PvE/quest objectives/what not.

The elegance of this is that all classes could have fun and participate, and there would be no need to balance classes. After all, if you are a team of rogues versus a team of sorcerers -- your strategy is to AVOID THE SORCS AND COMPLETE THE MISSION. Send the high-save, high HP Pally to distract them and lead them around before they got in range to Energy Drain him and insta-kill.

But even this will ultimately betray extreme imbalances that might tick players off. If Devs fix sneaking in these areas, for instance, there would be no way to detect a rogue without a high spot; sneaking bards could win easily without any confrontation: find the group clustered together, fascinate, can leave opponent teams fascinated until a mob aggrod and popped them free, long enough to complete the quest. All I could say to that is: get used to being spread out.

These are some major points I'd like to emphasize as important:
1) If there's PvP, it should be voluntary, and the rewards (if any) should be minor. There's too much imbalance and random luck in classes and powers to make it feel "fair" when rewards are major, or participation is somehow forced. "Fun" and bragging rights are reward enough.
2) No nerfing or balancing classes for PvP. Homie don't play dat.
3) Make sure you have the staff to deal with griefers and complaints promptly. Seriously, DDO is a fine product. If you dabble in PvP, do it with quality.
4) Something else, but totally forgot. :D

[Borror0]

I think PvP can be improved and in no way affect PvE or demand any changes now or in the future with regard to class balancing.
Negatively affecting PvE is only part of a greater argument.

When justifying any change in a game, it's important to ask yourself a few questions:
1. To what kind of players does this appeal to?
2. Am I offering a product superior quality to these players or can they find better by playing other MMOs?
3. Will that change drive away another mutually exclusive segment of the player base?
4. If yes, how large is that segment?
5. How resource intensive will this change be?
6. How profitable do I expect to be?
7. How much upkeep will this system require over the next few months or years to remain of superior quality?
8. Can those resources be better spent on another feature?

The problem with adding PvP is that the answers to most of these questions are not really favorable.

If there is no attempt at game balance, then DDO's PvP will be drastically inferior to other PvP products which means that it wouldn't be capable of attracting enough players to make profits from the change.

If there is an attempt at game balance, then the number of changes require to achieve an at least acceptable game balance would be gargantuan and the need for upkeep from update to update would be just as significant. Additionally, the change would aggravate the segment of the playerbase who play PvE uniquely and drive a large portion of them away. While the loss could be slightly offset by making the respec mechanism more easily affordable (to be able to bear the constant rebalancing), the failing of many PvP-focused game show that the PvP crowd is not all that large.

Not to mention, those who tried DDO have probably wrote it off as "not a PvP game" and won't give it a second chance.

It's not just a matter of "can we improve PvP?" but "should we improve PvP or is it a waste of time?" While the possibilities for improvements are large, the odds of it being profitable are quite low. PvP players are a small portion of the MMO crowd; the rest are PvE players. Considering that DDO is already unfit for PvP, it's much more logical for Turbine to focus on improving DDO's PvE than DDO's PvP.

Class balance only becomes an issue in PvP if you are fighting 1 vs 1.
The amount of burst damage of spellcaster is too powerful for melee characters to even stand a chance. If PvP teams are made of twelve players, then each team will be made of twelve spellcasters. There is simply no justifiable reason to bring a melee character in PvP, at the moment.

Additionally, limiting team to such a large size will make finding partners incredibly difficult.

1) Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it.
That's the exact opposite of reality.

2) It can be inserted into DDO, but to not screw up the whole game it would certainly require it to follow its own set of rules appart from PvE, and these rules would require constant tweaking to fine tune the balance. (as it is with every PvP centric game, from RTS to FPS)
Game developers are reluctant to do that for several reasons, one being that it's increased complexity.

[Ninetoes]

<snip> Guano Derangement


This struck me as phenomenally funny.



4)Who decides what the Devs time should be worked on or not are the Devs (this realization hit me hard very recently), If they believe they can invest into adding and supporting PvP, and that this will bring a big enough benefit to their revenue, they will do so. (and this order will probably come from the top)


Very true, and very few people realize it.



But the point is, The Schwang is omnipresent. IT feeds our instincts, its based on the notion that all of us want to believe in, that we are special somehow, that we are worth more than others, that we are better than animals, that we are better period. This is the kind of impulse that makes trillions of dollars every year.


You somehow managed to top "Guano Derangement" in the same post, which is rad.



but, the fact is, Schawngs are Golden!


I...crappin' christ, I don't even know what to say.


Some other stuff about PvP that is very inspired.

I've always respected you as a poster, but my god man. That was unprecedentedly awesome. I do hope others took the time to read it in it's entirety.


Mad Props
~Toes

[Borror0]

3) I don't even think it's necessary to give out rewards, really. It's sorta like Permadeath, you are either enjoying yourself or you're not. People will set up their own tournaments and rewards, and keep track of their own stats, trust me.
Rewards are necessary if you want to get a great number of players playing. While a few people can get enjoyment out of something for the sake of doing it, most people need to be told what to do. That's why current MMO design is so quest-centric. Ultima Online didn't have quests but, from EQ to World of Warcraft, quests got used more and more because players generally found being told what to do to be more fun than finding what to do.

Rewards do that. They add a meaning for accomplishing certain task, to most players.

The few that like emergent gameplay usually play EVE Online (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU).

[KKDragonLord]

1) Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it. That's the exact opposite of reality.

While i agree with most of what you said Borr

I didnt understand this statement.

What exactly is opposite to reality there?

The fact that pretty much all MMOs that are out there, and all of the new MMOs on the way, have PvP support, including the most populated MMOs to date? Or that its a major selling point? As in, an aspect that is expected and scrutinized by the large PvP fan community in general?

[KKDragonLord]

I've always respected you as a poster, but my god man. That was unprecedentedly awesome. I do hope others took the time to read it in it's entirety.

Mad Props
~Toes
Thanks a lot Toes! :D

It took quite a while to write so im glad at least someone read it with an open mind :p

[Borror0]

While i agree with most of what you said Borr

I didnt understand this statement.

What exactly is opposite to reality there?

The fact that pretty much all MMOs that are out there, and all of the new MMOs on the way, have PvP support, including the most populated MMOs to date? Or that its a major selling point? As in, an aspect that is expected and scrutinized by the large PvP fan community in general?
Most MMOs have tacked on PvP, rather than a real PvP. In those MMOs, it's an afterthought (most likely ordered by the publisher rather than the designers) with the hope it'll act a few players and then the rest of the game will persuade them to stick around.

Take LOTRO as an example. It has PvP (well, PvMP) but I don't think any change has been made to address the PvPers' concerns in the last year or so. It's not that there isn't a long list of serious complaints to address; it's just not a big moneymaker and Turbine realized that investing further money in PvP is a incorrect use of their resources as the PvE content is really their biggest selling point.

The same goes for about every MMO except the few successful PvP-centric MMOs and World of Warcraft.

Usually, it's wiser to pick between PvE or PvP and stick with it. Notice that the latest PvP MMO (Aion) has very poor PvE. There's a reason behind that: it's not its biggest selling point, PvP is, and focusing on the two is just an impossible task considering their revenues so they went with PvP.

[Orratti]

They already have areas other than the brawling pit you can go into for pvp in teams and there are goals to meet in there other than just killing your opponent. Not many pvpers like them. If I chose to pvp again the brawling pit one on one is the only way I'd go. That is the part of pvp I did like. Fighting one on one. I'd recognize a good pvper that fought single fair combat. I'd recognize a cheap jump caster. I'd recognize a harasser. I knew who my opponents were and became friendly with most.

The sort of play you are discribing would lead to packs who will revel in each other's cruelty. Read Lord of the Flies. We have enough single player pvpers that do that. They also get banned for it occasionally. The mentality that this would breed is enough reason not to do it.

[jcTharin]

i got an idea

player and environment vs player and environment.

army vs army. with each army being made up of a large number of AI controlled MOBs and one party or raid group.

so you and the rest of your party will essentially be solders in an army controlled by a person that is in command. and you will be fighting against an army and a party controlled by another person.

in this setting you could do many different things. you could go and try and take out as many of the enemy AI solders as you can, you could focus on support for you own solders, you could go take out the other PCs, excreta.

the commander could be in charge of the battlefield. he would plan different formations, make strategies, even give the party instructions, and be in complete control of his solders.

this way you can have PvP and PvE at the same time!

of course this is just a dream game of mine combining my two great gaming loves. DDO and strategy war games.

i just want my own army. is that too much to ask for?

[Twerpp]

PvP is awesome but there are too many old ass no twitch skill having bawwwwbags struggling as it is to play this active combat game when they should be playing a turn based RPG on their SNES emulator. This will never happen because old people already rage and have heart attacks when they get owned by 15 year olds who trash talk them in taverns. If you put it on a guild size scale with actual rewards systems it becomes almost mandatory and the crusty old farts aint havin it.

I suggest you spend free time on shooters, even if Turbine attempted this they would never compete with real PvP focused games.

[KKDragonLord]

Most MMOs have tacked on PvP, rather than a real PvP. In those MMOs, it's an afterthought (most likely ordered by the publisher rather than the designers) with the hope it'll act a few players and then the rest of the game will persuade them to stick around.

Take LOTRO as an example. It has PvP (well, PvMP) but I don't think any change has been made to address the PvPers' concerns in the last year or so. It's not that there isn't a long list of serious complaints to address; it's just not a big moneymaker and Turbine realized that investing further money in PvP is a incorrect use of their resources as the PvE content is really their biggest selling point.

The same goes for about every MMO except the few successful PvP-centric MMOs and World of Warcraft.

Usually, it's wiser to pick between PvE or PvP and stick with it. Notice that the latest PvP MMO (Aion) has very poor PvE. There's a reason behind that: it's not its biggest selling point, PvP is, and focusing on the two is just an impossible task considering their revenues so they went with PvP.

Thanks for clarifying, that's a lot less condescending. Agree with you there as well, and surprisingly this does not conflict with the core argument that there is a market to be tapped and Turbine will weigh the pros an cons themselves.

[DoctorWhofan]

Most MMOs have tacked on PvP, rather than a real PvP. In those MMOs, it's an afterthought (most likely ordered by the publisher rather than the designers) with the hope it'll act a few players and then the rest of the game will persuade them to stick around.

Take LOTRO as an example. It has PvP (well, PvMP) but I don't think any change has been made to address the PvPers' concerns in the last year or so. It's not that there isn't a long list of serious complaints to address; it's just not a big moneymaker and Turbine realized that investing further money in PvP is a incorrect use of their resources as the PvE content is really their biggest selling point.

The same goes for about every MMO except the few successful PvP-centric MMOs and World of Warcraft.

Usually, it's wiser to pick between PvE or PvP and stick with it. Notice that the latest PvP MMO (Aion) has very poor PvE. There's a reason behind that: it's not its biggest selling point, PvP is, and focusing on the two is just an impossible task considering their revenues so they went with PvP.

agreed. And adding, at this juncture in DDO's history, the only way I can see to add PvP WITHOUT destroying the PvE OR making it "manatory" is PvMP, which Turbine has and can set up easily.

It's the only PvP I will support.

I know this has been beaten into the ground, but I do feel it needs to be said again: Alot of us came here because there was NO PvP. Many of us were burned out on games that had Meaningful PvP. Personally, I was tired of being publicily mocked by 11 year olds because I didn't want to spar with their twinked out toons. Strangely, I tend not to be confrontational in the game, for those who have played with me know for a fact. I prefer to work as a team to get the job done rather than a solo uber build doing all the work and the rest of us wondering why we logged into the game.

Yes, I know that PvP crowd isn't made up of entirely by 11 year olds, but that's what I (and many others) got the impression of when concerning games that are PvP driven. THey are the loudest, like the non-PvP people here are the loudest, and there fore are the "face" of PvP.

With the dislike of PvP, and immature players who practice it like a religion, I feel bringing a meaningful PvP to this game means that that crowd will flock to DDO. It hast to be MEANINGFUL. If it isn't, then no one will play, like it is now. Or that slow demand for "rewards" will creep up in the suggestions. Am I worried about the people here going "PvP-l33tist?" No, so don't protest this is wrong thinking. I am worried the crowd that WILL COME from meaningful. ANd they will come.

Will the game grow? yes. Will they make more money? yes. Will DDO stand out as revoutionary, different? NO. Why? It followed the "crowd". Will the PvE be shoved aside for the PvP crowd? I really think it will, just because of the bottom line.

And at the end of the day I feel niched is better. Because, for me, PvP here means I have only LotRO to go to, andthat can only hold my interests for a few weeks at a time. It isn't my choice, though. However, I shall influence Turbine as much as I can AGAINST adding PvP to the game.

And I will argue to anyone against it on the forums and in the game, with all the passion and influence I can muster.

[macros123]

I think PvP can be improved and does have a place in DDO.

Those closed minded folks that always want to reply "I will quit, it will ruin the game, blah, ****, garbage." Go ahead and stop reading and post now, otherwise you will be subject to more opinions you may not agree with and I don't want to shake your world too much.







Because we have differring viewpoints to your own does not make us closed minded. What you need to understand is that your viewpoint has been shared many times in the past, and this conversation is not at all novel.

There are several people who feel just as you do about this, but if you take the time to read the previous threads, you will see that the OVERWHELMING majority of the players are simply not interested. If you think you will be the one fellow to change all of our minds, then go ahead, but expect a great deal of pushback on this issue.

Closed mindedness is not being able to see the other person's viewpoint, but if you take the time to read the other posts (BorrorO has a nice one) You will see that there are many valid reasons why this would not be desirable, and these reasons are completely valid, not at all closed minded. Each one of these areas has been argued and analyzed repeatedly, and the conclusions are based on reason, not stubborness.

It may hurt your feelings to be in the minority on this issue, but for the time being, it appears that you are still there, and you will need to find some way to get past that. I understand that PvP would make the game more enjoyable for a small, yet significant portion of the population, but the rest of us feel that there would TOO MUCH change to the game we love in order for that to happen.

[Borror0]

[...] this does not conflict with the core argument that there is a market to be tapped and Turbine will weigh the pros an cons themselves.
If your claim was as conservative as "there is a market to be tapped," then I would have not disagreed. However, your claim was much bolder than that. You said, "Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it." That's not true. In fact, most MMOs don't exploit their PvP (they have PvP but don't capitalize on it) and those who do exploit their PvP have a poor PvE experience because that is not their focus - the only exception being WoW manages to do both thanks to its 105M monthly income.

See the conflict now?

[acidtiger]

Organized PvP with all the weenie-waving, rivalry and class changes in the name of 'balance' was one of the (many) things I was glad to say good-bye to when I left WoW. Thanks, but no-thanks, on the subject of PvP.

[KKDragonLord]

If your claim was as conservative as "there is a market to be tapped," then I would have not disagreed. However, your claim was much bolder than that. You said, "Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it." That's not true. In fact, most MMOs don't exploit their PvP (they have PvP but don't capitalize on it) and those who do exploit their PvP have a poor PvE experience because that is not their focus - the only exception being WoW manages to do both thanks to its 105M monthly income.

See the conflict now?

Yes, thanks for sharing.

[Orratti]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.

[edit] There would still be some very serious problem with making it work well though. The main problem with pvp as it is now is greensteel. It does so much damage that it removes most of the skill from pvp and replaces it with luck. Really pvp had past its prime with the creation of shroud loot. There were already issues with it before then but that was the last straw in killing pvp for good.

[jcTharin]

1. i just want to cause massive carnage. i don't care the target, i just want to destroy.

2. the amount of work that would be needed to make a good PvP system in DDO would be better spent on other tasks. I'm sure you could make that list up yourselves.

3. I'm fairly certain that it agreed upon by the majority of people here (on the forms at least) that we don't want the game to invest in PvP.

I still like my idea of army vs army. but i think that turbine would be better investing their time in something else for the game.

are we done yet?

[macros123]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.


That scenario is not at all like the DDO we play now.
That is not at all like any tabletop D&D session I have ever heard of also, which this game is based on.
It sounds like it should be another game with another name.

[gavagai]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.

I'd prefer allowing potentially opposing "groups" run a common quest rather than create a battlefield instance devoted to free-for-all PvP, just because some classes are completely useless in PvP and they would undoubtedly whine about their inability to participate.

Exactly like a quest. Moderate XP that diminishes with repetition, and mediocre random loot using normal quest loot tables. The only difference is the ability to have different "teams." I think that would preserve a clean, DDO flavor, no?

If you can "win" the PvP quest by simply avoiding the gankers and completing before everyone else, you'd have more interest and more interesting ways to play it. Rogues can DPS mobs and do a couple traps (they are useless for the actual PvP), rangers and casters can gank, &c. Naturally you'd have players just joining parties to run this quest to gank and prey on other players; but having an outside objective (say, a number of mobs with a somewhat difficult boss) would add depth and include more playstyles.

The more a PvP system focuses on direct confrontation between players, rather than completing objectives, the more you fall into the pit of problems Borroro mentions.

[kafrielveddicus]

Here is an idea;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And other that act that way onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers

What do you think!!!

[jcTharin]

Here is an idea;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And other that act that way onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers

What do you think!!!

hmm... weed out and separate the PvP players from everyone else.

i like it

[macros123]

1
are we done yet?

Doubtful.


Sigh

[Shassa]

Rewards are necessary if you want to get a great number of players playing. While a few people can get enjoyment out of something for the sake of doing it, most people need to be told what to do. That's why current MMO design is so quest-centric. Ultima Online didn't have quests but, from EQ to World of Warcraft, quests got used more and more because players generally found being told what to do to be more fun than finding what to do.

Rewards do that. They add a meaning for accomplishing certain task, to most players.[/URL].

In general I would agree, except that we are talking about PvP in DDO here. If the rewards are desirable then a significant part of the population (which is largely anti-PvP) will feel forced to go through the motions to get it. Once that happens, we're on the subject of imposing PvP onto the clear majority who want no crossover at all and will resent any attempt at such.

That's why my suggestions boiled down to giving them a new toy (quest) and letting them have their fun without affecting everyone else's gameplay.

[kafrielveddicus]

hmm... weed out and separate the PvP players from everyone else.

i like it

Exactly and keep inventing items that are for pvp only, make them cost exuberant store points and let them all play the "Toy Game", they will fight it out to be the best, and spend all their money to improve our game!!!

At the same time, the players who love the game for what it is will be rid of them and reap the rewards of having them on an island of their own!!!

I think it is a win win!!!

[Orratti]

I'd prefer allowing potentially opposing "groups" run a common quest rather than create a battlefield instance devoted to free-for-all PvP, just because some classes are completely useless in PvP and they would undoubtedly whine about their inability to participate.

Exactly like a quest. Moderate XP that diminishes with repetition, and mediocre random loot using normal quest loot tables. The only difference is the ability to have different "teams." I think that would preserve a clean, DDO flavor, no?

If you can "win" the PvP quest by simply avoiding the gankers and completing before everyone else, you'd have more interest and more interesting ways to play it. Rogues can DPS mobs and do a couple traps (they are useless for the actual PvP), rangers and casters can gank, &c. Naturally you'd have players just joining parties to run this quest to gank and prey on other players; but having an outside objective (say, a number of mobs with a somewhat difficult boss) would add depth and include more playstyles.

The more a PvP system focuses on direct confrontation between players, rather than completing objectives, the more you fall into the pit of problems Borroro mentions.

I'd say no. People who want to pvp want to to kill other players not to do a quest. People who want to do a quest don't want another group of people in there just to interfere with their completion. Killing the enemy(s) is the point of pvp therefore when the enemies or an overwhelming number of them are dead you complete the pvp quest. Capturing the flag and getting it to the other side of the battlefield is the point of the game in paintball and if you wanted to pin down your opponent while your fastest teammate grabbed the flag and ran it to completion you can but it is more fun to kill everyone on the other side and just walk it to the other side.

[jcTharin]

Exactly and keep inventing items that are for pvp only, make them cost exuberant store points and let them all play the "Toy Game", they will fight it out to be the best, and spend all their money to improve our game!!!

At the same time, the players who love the game for what it is will be rid of them and reap the rewards of having them on an island of their own!!!

I think it is a win win!!!

its elitist.

but i still like it

[kafrielveddicus]

its elitist.

but i still like it

The Narc takes a bow


Problem solved - bring in PVP as described in previous posts

Sidenote - ultimately this is not what is wanted, because it takes away the fun of grieving other players

[Orratti]

That scenario is not at all like the DDO we play now.
That is not at all like any tabletop D&D session I have ever heard of also, which this game is based on.
It sounds like it should be another game with another name.

PvP itself is not like any tabletop version you would have heard of. Nor is any large group of pvpers going to be like ddo now or any tabletop version you ever heard of. The areas that are already provided for multiplayer pvp are not like any version of DnD that was meant to be played. DnD isn't a PvP game it's a PvE game but there is already PvP in it. Most say there shouldn't be but it is already there and by being there has already broken away from any tabletop D&D session the creators ever intended.

[Borror0]

In general I would agree, except that we are talking about PvP in DDO here. If the rewards are desirable then a significant part of the population (which is largely anti-PvP) will feel forced to go through the motions to get it.
If you're going to bother with improving an aspect of your game, it's for players to play it. If they don't, you've wasted your time.

With that said, WoW has PvE gear and PvP gear. I don't know what the differences between the two are exactly, since I never PvP'd in WoW, but I know that good PvE gear is decent but not optimal in PvP while good PvP is decent but not optimal in PvE. If Turbine was to truly bother with PvP, then they should study how WoW did it and emulate how they pulled off to make an incentive to play PvP that had little effect on PvE.

[Bracosius]

There are some very good posts here, KKdragonlord and Borroro I am looking at you.

But I do feel I should point something out to some of the people not really adding a constructive point.

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.

You may have missed it if you do not frequent the taverns, but it is there. I would like to just see them develop the existing system more. I do not want them to overhall the game and target a whole new market. I like many aspects of the game the way they are.

I have played PvP based MMO's, and the PvP was fun. But where they can not touch DDO is the combat system. DDO has the best combat system in any MMO I have played. That is why I came back after playing another game for a year. Being able to swing, jump, dodge, etc. It is much more fun then standing next to a target and trying to time some special ability while your general movements are meaningless due to auto targetting, following, etc.

If anyone has played WAR, my favorite part of the game was the scenarios. 10-24 people per side, whatever classes showed up, thats what you had. The scenarios all had objectives besides killing. Hold an objective, capture a flag. It was very fun. And even though it was a great time, the combat could not hold a candle to DDO.

With the current PvP system DDO has in place I think it would be possible to expand on it and make it very fun to play. Would you see too many 12 vs 12 all Sorc battles? Maybe, but I doubt it.

[macros123]

PvP itself is not like any tabletop version you would have heard of. Nor is any large group of pvpers going to be like ddo now or any tabletop verion you ever heard of. The areas that are already provided for multiplayer pvp are not like any version of DnD that was meant to be played. DnD isn't a PvP game it's a PvE game but there is already PvP in it. Most say there shouldn't be but it is already there and by being there has already broken away from any tabletop D&D session the creators ever intended.

But it is also plain to see that this is only intended as a diversion, not as a major component of the game.

There is nothing resembling character balance in PvP as it currently stands. In order to makeit work, the balance would seemingly need to be adjusted completely. THIS is for the most part what people would least like to see. The balance issues in this game, while still present are at it's best state ever (in my opinion), and I would not like to see Dev time used completely revamping every aspect of the classes/enhancements.

[BoBoDaClown]

I still think a PvM system would work well in this game (takes care of a lot of the balancing issues).

I often hear people complain about pvp '11 year old attitudes' and to be honest I have very rarely experienced it.

[BoBoDaClown]

But it is also plain to see that this is only intended as a diversion, not as a major component of the game.

There is nothing resembling character balance in PvP as it currently stands. In order to makeit work, the balance would seemingly need to be adjusted completely. THIS is for the most part what people would least like to see. The balance issues in this game, while still present are at it's best state ever (in my opinion), and I would not like to see Dev time used completely revamping every aspect of the classes/enhancements.

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

[Borror0]

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.
You say that like it matters. Its existence does not justify further investments into it.

[Orratti]

There are some very good posts here, KKdragonlord and Borroro I am looking at you.

But I do feel I should point something out to some of the people not really adding a constructive point.

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.

You may have missed it if you do not frequent the taverns, but it is there. I would like to just see them develop the existing system more. I do not want them to overhall the game and target a whole new market. I like many aspects of the game the way they are.

I have played PvP based MMO's, and the PvP was fun. But where they can not touch DDO is the combat system. DDO has the best combat system in any MMO I have played. That is why I came back after playing another game for a year. Being able to swing, jump, dodge, etc. It is much more fun then standing next to a target and trying to time some special ability while your general movements are meaningless due to auto targetting, following, etc.

If anyone has played WAR, my favorite part of the game was the scenarios. 10-24 people per side, whatever classes showed up, thats what you had. The scenarios all had objectives besides killing. Hold an objective, capture a flag. It was very fun. And even though it was a great time, the combat could not hold a candle to DDO.

With the current PvP system DDO has in place I think it would be possible to expand on it and make it very fun to play. Would you see too many 12 vs 12 all Sorc battles? Maybe, but I doubt it.

It sounds about like what I was describing. There is around 50 people in it. The main thing in a case like this I'd want to be sure of is that it will be 50 RANDOM people. My earlier point of mass psychology being reiterated. Other objectives besides the killing, sure why not. Like I said I'd like to see what a large battle of players with all their abilities besides unaviodable massive damage or death (read no saving throw) being available would be like. I'd imagine it would be like a modern warfare game. Maybe a rescue the hostages mission or something like that. Yeah I could see it. Not sure how you would pick a leader for it but really I'd hardly care. Just to play it in utter chaos on such a large scale would be an interesting experience. Like the day the marketplace tent got sucked away. It's an interesting idea and if randomized enough will self cancel most of the worst of the current pvp experience. Don't see your odds of getting it very likely though. More likely to get the pvp server if you push for it enough. Could even get support for that from the general population that would be glad to have the seperation.

[macros123]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.


Hmmmm.......Interesting idea, but would it be harder to tinker with 65 monsters to suit 11, classes, or tinker with 11 classes?

[Orratti]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

PvNPC eh. Yeah you can just make all the NPCs uber forum builds at different levels.

[Borror0]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.
LOTRO has that, PvMP, for lore reasons. Like I said earlier, I don't think Turbine has addressed even one PvMP concern in a full year.

[BoBoDaClown]

PvNPC eh. Yeah You can just make all the NPCs uber forum builds at different levels.

No; I was thinking of Monsters.

i.e. you can give a selection of monsters- and balance them versus the classes - different abilities, fortification etc. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but balance never is, and it would be easier than 'balancing' the classes (which would be a disaster).

[BoBoDaClown]

LOTRO has that, PvMP. Like I said earlier, I don't think Turbine has addressed even one PvMP concern in a full year.

i.e. they haven't had enough funds to do something that isn't high on their priority list. I don't think anyone believes pvp should become a priority here either.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that it is a viable way to fit pvp into this game.


i.e. We wouldn't be fighting each other (Player Characters). They wouldn't need to balance player versus player in terms of classes.

I'm also wondering if DDO will eventually start pulling in more revenue than LOTRO, which would make these kinds of plans viable.

I think everybody agrees that the priority needs to be the stock content.

[Orratti]

No; I was thinking of Monsters.

i.e. you can give a selection of monsters- and balance them versus the classes - different abilities, fortification etc. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but balance never is, and it would be easier than 'balancing' the classes (which would be a disaster).

Oops in PnP any hostile creature is considered a monster including npcs. My mistake.

[Visty]

My solutions:

1) Don't balance anything at all. Make every spell and skill work as intended just as it does in a PvE environment. Don't like it? Feel disadvantaged? Fine, don't do it or design a character with PvP in mind. PvP isn't about being fair. It's about kill or be killed. Put up or shut up.
already in game

1b) Because there's no tinkering with abilities, there's no reason for the PvE crowd to resist the changes. Because there aren't any.
already in game

2) Come up with one clever quest where two teams can enter simultaneously from different entry points and compete to finish it first. Mix up the objectives, there should be areas exclusive to each side with traps, puzzles with random elements to solve, an area that requires good twitch skills, and NPC interactions that benefit people with high CHA-based skills. Some sort of magic field keeps you from entering the other team's areas for those challenges, but there will be crossover areas (chokepoints) where both teams can enter and do direct combat.
that would be new, but open for exploits

3) I don't even think it's necessary to give out rewards, really. It's sorta like Permadeath, you are either enjoying yourself or you're not. People will set up their own tournaments and rewards, and keep track of their own stats, trust me.
already in game (well, if you call having no rewards as beeing in game)

so, looking at what you wrote, why are there even posts about pvp?
everything is fine already

(and thats an /agree on you, so you dont get that wrong :) )

[Bracosius]

You say that like it matters. Its existence does not justify further investments into it.

Why? Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?

Or is it just because you don't care?

We all know that PvP was added as an after thought. If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?

The goal of a business is for people to purchase your product. An MMO wants people to be in-game. DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase. PvP gives people something to do when they want a change of pace. And it will keep them in game for a longer period of time.

As previously stated I do think there should be PvP rewards. The rewards can be things that do not effect the PvE experience. Examples would be:

Visual only items like the pirate hats.

Custom sur-names, slayer of elves, the bloody, the survivor, con as a dump stat, etc.

Items like the pendant of time, rods of teleport, silver flame city regeneration, and other items that enhance the game experience but do not effect how well your character performs in PvE.


And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

If a better PvP system would bring in 1% more customers and keep 5% from leaving for other games that offer better PvP, it is worth it to invest some time in.



(I obviously just made up those numbers, they could be higher...or negative.)

[Gunga]

resp in red

You were so gentle with him.

You're nice.

Brac, you could just 'crush' me in the current PvP, if you'd like.

You'll be bringing Braco? Or, no, maybe you would bring Krayola? Argile?

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Let me know which pea shooter you'll be bringing to my H-Bomb fight.

[Borror0]

Why?
Because it does not directly follow that, simply because it exists, it's a good idea to invest further money in it. Claiming otherwise is fallacious unless you have empirical evidences proving that it's among the best means to spend the money.

Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?
Name me one triple-A theme park MMO that manages to have both a successful PvE and a successful PvP at the same time other than World of Warcraft.

If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?
Because Atari requested it. It's not uncommon for the publisher to have requests that don't really make much sense but that most be obeyed.

DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase.
Tell me what PvP players would buy. Don't say consumables. Allowing consumables in PvP wouldn't be popular to a Western audience.

And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

People claiming F2P would work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it would work; people claiming that managing both PvE and PvP wouldn't work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it wouldn't work.

Perhaps you should have picked another example...

[MoisleyMassacre]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

[DoctorWhofan]

Why? Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?

Or is it just because you don't care?

We all know that PvP was added as an after thought. If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?

The goal of a business is for people to purchase your product. An MMO wants people to be in-game. DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase. PvP gives people something to do when they want a change of pace. And it will keep them in game for a longer period of time.

As previously stated I do think there should be PvP rewards. The rewards can be things that do not effect the PvE experience. Examples would be:

Visual only items like the pirate hats.

Custom sur-names, slayer of elves, the bloody, the survivor, con as a dump stat, etc.

Items like the pendant of time, rods of teleport, silver flame city regeneration, and other items that enhance the game experience but do not effect how well your character performs in PvE.


And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

If a better PvP system would bring in 1% more customers and keep 5% from leaving for other games that offer better PvP, it is worth it to invest some time in.



(I obviously just made up those numbers, they could be higher...or negative.)

YOu know, That's fine. BUt what you are proposing isn't gunna bring flocks of peoople here. It is MEANINGLESS. Why put something in a game that actually means nothing? You haveto have a whole society of these people (ie Ettenmoors) to make it worth while. DDO just doesn't have that infrastucture in place, nor the resources to do so.

So forTurbine to do it on the cheap, it would have to be MEANINGFUL PvP. A real tangible award. because if it isn't, it just a tavern fight for a red hat. That red hat has bragging rights, to be sure, but really, when 95% of the game is PvE, no one cares. Now why do it? Why spend cash on it? Why waste my time on it? There is no reason unless it has a purpose.

WoW has HUGE areas of PvP fighting. And gear for it. Titles. Because there is alot of time and effort spent on PvP, more people do it. ANdthe more and more it is creeping on the landscape pf the PvE, to the point making PvE in WoW hard to enjoy. Especially if your Quest Giver is wiped out for hours on end (and your repair bill and death penalties) because there is 5 level 80 Alliance guys sitting outside of Crossroads.

LotRO has the Ettenmoors. Not a whole lot of time spent on it. But outside duels, it is your PvP. Again, items, titles and PvP centric gear can be won. But it doesn't detract from the PvE nor does it involve it. It's your tounsils: great you have them forthe added infection fighting, but they can be removed and your body still function fine.

I prefer LotRO's PvP. But as Borror0 has said, no one CARES. it doesn't have impact on their game on a daily basis, wasting time in the Ettenmoors doesn't really help them get further into the game in general, most people skip it. I do when I play LotRO. Whether or not WoW's is meaningful PvP is up to debate, but it DOES have an impact on the game. I know WoW has since taken steps to correct some ofthe PvP issues, BUT if you are on a PvP server, and shut off PvP, you are still effected.

Is seperating the PvErs and the PvPers make a difference? not really. THe most nasty fights have been in many a forums over this.

All in all, I agree with Borror0. THe game was not set up to be PvP, therefore the PvP will be bad. UNLESS you do the Ettenmoor way, which has it's own issues. But if you don't have Meaningful PvP, forthe sake of getting people to the game, you might as well not have it at all. Rewriting your game to fit something into it is dangerous, and can back fire as much as it is suppose to help. DDO is hard wired, due to the game it was based on, to be PvE. Changing it would be a very dangerous thing to do.

[DoctorWhofan]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

No most don't even go into the pits.

[flynnjsw]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

I have PvP'd in this game all of none, and I do not want PvP to be implemented in any form that makes it mandatory in any way ( rewards that would enhance your character in PvE, Guild Requirements, etc). There, I blew your opinion straight out of the water.

[gavagai]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

In my case, I loved PvP and GvG.... in Shadowbane. (Will probably go back to check out the Emulator too, see if it turns out to be wheat or chaff.)

But I'm concerned about "enhancing" PvP in DDO. People who want a good, tactical PvP experience have to ask themselves:

Does DDO lack merely the format for fun PvP, or do the basic mechanics of DDO make PvP problematic.

We can add new formats for PvP (12 on 12 team matches, take-no-prisoners 100 player apocolypse, &c), but IMO they will be as daft and stagnant as the current Capture the Flag and barroom brawl formats.

Why? Because the basic mechanics of DDO involve characters that do massive DPS and/or instant incapacitating effects which are themselves extremely vulnerable (low HPs, often low saves and low SR, &c.) and many class abilities provide no particular benefit in a PvP context (Favored Enemy, KotC damage, Sneaking, Sneak Attacks) while others take on stratospheric significance (Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot, Power Word Stun, Wail.)

I've never seen effective healers in PvP. Why? because there's no way to heal fast enough the damage you sustain. That is a bad sign if you want tactical, intelligent, interesting PvP.

That's why I think any format that revolves around direct confrontation between players will fail. We're too powerful and too weak at the same time. A quest with non-PvP objectives, but which allowed for a possibility of PvP if desired, is better. A rogue may be undervalued in direct PvP, but can provide DPS and rogue support in usual quest format, and do interesting things like gather aggro and drop mobs on other players using Diplomacy. Because its a quest and not just PvP, more players would be encouraged to give it a try; and even though PvP remains unbalanced, each player can contribute towards objectives.

[kafrielveddicus]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

I think I could learn to love PVP in the following example;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And others that act that way(<-People that use words like "r0xX3r'd) onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers!!!

I think pushing all these people of the same mentality into one spot would enhance their gaming experience!!!

Coming out with new items available in the store usable in PVP only, and have them cost exuberant store points, will lead to a better game for those that play on the regular servers.

[Return_To_Forever]

Because it does not directly follow that, simply because it exists, it's a good idea to invest further money in it. Claiming otherwise is fallacious unless you have empirical evidences proving that it's among the best means to spend the money.

Well, it's certainly better than starting from scratch. It being a good investment is unknown to us, meaning you too.


Name me one triple-A theme park MMO that manages to have both a successful PvE and a successful PvP at the same time other than World of Warcraft.

Actually WoW PvP's "success" in terms of the PVP crowd is mediocre at best. This is why when games like AoC and War, and Aion come out every one of them flock in hopes of a better PVP system. In fact they play games like HoN, Dota, and Battlegrounds and anything else that comes out with decent PVP options just to see.

WoW is not in the same category here that DDO would be in with a side show PVP system. WoW has not always had the best systems in place, but has always represented its importance to the game, which is not an afterthought, like you seem to be representing here.


Because Atari requested it. It's not uncommon for the publisher to have requests that don't really make much sense but that most be obeyed.

Do we know this as fact? Like it was posted somewhere?


Tell me what PvP players would buy. Don't say consumables. Allowing consumables in PvP wouldn't be popular to a Western audience.

Actually consumables in PVP in the western market is a must have, consumables play a big part in skill and balance in most PVP situations.


People claiming F2P would work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it would work; people claiming that managing both PvE and PvP wouldn't work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it wouldn't work.

Perhaps you should have picked another example...

Actually its a fine example, he is just saying, a lot of people thought F2P would be the death of the game, people still complain to this day about it. It was a risk, it payed off, there were doubters, and that's his point. Maybe a better PVP system might pay off.

BTW, What MMOS are you sighting that failed cause they gave their current side show PVP system that was completely out of whack some love?

[jcTharin]

I think I could learn to love PVP in the following example;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And others that act that way(<-People that use words like "r0xX3r'd) onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers!!!

I think pushing all these people of the same mentality into one spot would enhance their gaming experience!!!

Coming out with new items available in the store usable in PVP only, and have them cost exuberant store points, will lead to a better game for those that play on the regular servers.

i still like it

i still think its elitist

but i think we could do something with that. other games make separate PvP and PvE servers right? if DDO were to ever expand on PvP i think that they should do that. if just to keep PvP away from the people who want nothing to do with it

[Return_To_Forever]

In my case, I loved PvP and GvG.... in Shadowbane. (Will probably go back to check out the Emulator too, see if it turns out to be wheat or chaff.)

But I'm concerned about "enhancing" PvP in DDO. People who want a good, tactical PvP experience have to ask themselves:

Does DDO lack merely the format for fun PvP, or do the basic mechanics of DDO make PvP problematic.

We can add new formats for PvP (12 on 12 team matches, take-no-prisoners 100 player apocolypse, &c), but IMO they will be as daft and stagnant as the current Capture the Flag and barroom brawl formats.

Why? Because the basic mechanics of DDO involve characters that do massive DPS and/or instant incapacitating effects which are themselves extremely vulnerable (low HPs, often low saves and low SR, &c.) and many class abilities provide no particular benefit in a PvP context (Favored Enemy, KotC damage, Sneaking, Sneak Attacks) while others take on stratospheric significance (Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot, Power Word Stun, Wail.)

I've never seen effective healers in PvP. Why? because there's no way to heal fast enough the damage you sustain. That is a bad sign if you want tactical, intelligent, interesting PvP.

That's why I think any format that revolves around direct confrontation between players will fail. We're too powerful and too weak at the same time. A quest with non-PvP objectives, but which allowed for a possibility of PvP if desired, is better. A rogue may be undervalued in direct PvP, but can provide DPS and rogue support in usual quest format, and do interesting things like gather aggro and drop mobs on other players using Diplomacy. Because its a quest and not just PvP, more players would be encouraged to give it a try; and even though PvP remains unbalanced, each player can contribute towards objectives.

Gav, what do you think a 100-125-150% buff to HP in PVP situations would do for the DPS issue you bring up here?

I agree though, the addition of a twin sister instance with a timer would be a lot of fun.

[Borror0]

Actually WoW PvP's "success" in terms of the PVP crowd is mediocre at best.
I know that, and that only helps my point: building a good PvP is extremely hard and maintaining both a good PvP and a good PvE at the same time is even harder. the latter is so hard, indeed, that WoW can barely pull it off. Like you said yourself, there are games offering a better PvP experience than WoW.

That's why a common game deign advice about PvP is "PvP should not be a random afterthought. Or if it is, be prepared for it to be an afterthought that few bother with. (http://brokentoys.org/2007/12/10/how-to-make-a-game-with-pvp-done-right/)"

Actually its a fine example, he is just saying, a lot of people thought F2P would be the death of the game, people still complain to this day about it. It was a risk, it payed off, there were doubters, and that's his point. Maybe a better PVP system might pay off.
Like I said, those who doubted about the successfulness of turning to F2P were misinformed about the trends in the industry. For months people declared subscriptions dead and about to be replaced by microtransactions, And those claims were supported by the large amount of successful F2P games. However, when discussing PvP in a PvE game, the trend goes the other way: no game other than WoW has managed to pull off a successful PvE and a successful PvP at once.

And like you said, WoW's PvP success is relatively modest and is mostly due to its already large population/revenues.

That's why using the F2Pexample works to your disadvantage.

[gavagai]

Gav, what do you think a 100-125-150% buff to HP in PVP situations would do for the DPS issue you bring up here?

I agree though, the addition of a twin sister instance with a timer would be a lot of fun.

Like having the quest start off by giving you a holy sacrament, doubling your hps?

Not sure what the effect would be, since it would both boost players and (in effect) nerf their damage. Casters bypassing HPs certainly wouldn't mind -- free double HPs! Melees and particularly finesse classes would have it doubly rough.

Other than making casters more powerful, though, it would probably make it more fun. Everyone benefits from having more margin for tactics.

The thing is finding the spot where the apparent nerf to melee efficacy doesn't tick players off more than the HP surge helps them. My experience in Shadowbane is that players there did a little more DPS than they do in D&D, but HPs ranged from around 1,200 for an Elven glass cannon/suicide build to over 9000hps for Half-Giant warriors. It was possible for that rare one-shot of a mage, but it was the kind of thing that warranted screenshots. By the time we're dealing with a 500% in HPs to match SB's DPS to HP ratio, though, we've introduced what looks like a -80% nerf on people's perceived melee performance. Which will probably be unpopular.

I don't know -- for all that stuff I'll defer to people who actually spend alot of time PvPing in DDO.

[BoBoDaClown]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

This argument is as stupid as the 'all pvpers are immature eleven your olds who talk a lot of smack' line of thought.

*sigh*

[jcTharin]

This argument is as stupid as the 'all pvpers are immature eleven your olds who talk a lot of smack' line of thought.

*sigh*

their are stupid people in any and every kind of group.

ok, now are we done with this pointless argument?

[vettkinn]

Comrades, I hereby resurrect this thread to further the cause of fun / meaningful pvp in DDO.

You can also check this other thread, some pro-pvp players made good points here -> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185195 (though, sadly, mostly cast aside as nonsense by the anti-pvp side).

It would be best to read some of the posts made by pro-pvp supporters here such as:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2834683&postcount=53

Well, in my opinion, Turbine never advertised this game as "strictly PvE only" or "Play DDO and never worry about PvP again, ever", but only that it started with the objective of having strong PvE content first and not focused too much on the pvp side... at least not yet. So the decision to tap the potential market for PvP is Turbine's.

I also support the idea of PvMP (Party vs. Party / Guild vs. Guild) type of scenarios, since it would require the least amount of tweaking.

Also, as I was browsing around, I found out that there were people who thought that the F2P scheme would be the end of DDO, but it turned out to be its savior. The same thing can be said about the PvP issue right now :D

[Aashrym]

Comrades, I hereby resurrect this thread to further the cause of fun / meaningful pvp in DDO.

You can also check this other thread, some pro-pvp players made good points here -> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185195 (though, sadly, mostly cast aside as nonsense by the anti-pvp side).

It would be best to read some of the posts made by pro-pvp supporters here such as:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2834683&postcount=53

Well, in my opinion, Turbine never advertised this game as "strictly PvE only" or "Play DDO and never worry about PvP again, ever", but only that it started with the objective of having strong PvE content first and not focused too much on the pvp side... at least not yet. So the decision to tap the potential market for PvP is Turbine's.

I also support the idea of PvMP (Party vs. Party / Guild vs. Guild) type of scenarios, since it would require the least amount of tweaking.

Also, as I was browsing around, I found out that there were people who thought that the F2P scheme would be the end of DDO, but it turned out to be its savior. The same thing can be said about the PvP issue right now :D

Turbine never advertised it as never becoming a MLM home-based business either. That doesn't mean it will turn into one. It as been on the forums since day 1 as PvE oriented, not PVP oriented tho.

There are PvP options for you to use already, no need to resurrect threads ;)

I'm curious, what do you expect to get from more PvP than you have now, and why?