Harper's Journal

[shores11]

Harper Moonblade is a rogue mechanic-2 and now with the addition of a shroud item or two can search and disable all traps in the game on any difficulty.

Harper can reach a search of 84 currently with the help still of a buff or two from some great players. Recently Buckaroo (w/prayer +1) and Xpresso (w/bard song +2), thanks for your help on this folks.

What you need:
Search 82: Epic traps require an 82 to find. This is a firm number that I have read about and experienced for myself doing Chains of Flame on epic recently with an all guild party.
Disable xx?: Not sure of the firm number and maybe I should have paid closer attention to what my disable was getting to but I did not. However I was able to disable traps on a roll of 6.
Trap Saves: Now this is the tough one I think. I found that even with improved evasion I was dying sometimes as the damage output on these epic traps are truely epic. Sometimes as you know you have to travel through the trap in order to disable. I had the hardest time surviving the fire trap in that inclining hall in Chains of Flame. I will figure these things out as I go and stratigize better to survive them maybe carry fire shield scrolls is one possibility.

Combat Effectiveness:
I truely feel in the effort to get Harper to the level he is with trapsmithing skills I did not sacrifice to the point that he is only a one dimensional character.
Sneak Attack: Harper is a pure level 20 rogue and as such the lethal aspect of his damage comes from his sneak attack no if ands or buts. So it is always my endevor to maintain my bonuses on backstabbing and with the help of some great heavy hitters in the group it is not usually an issue.
Kill Counts: This as a rule should never be the end all be all as far as chararacter effectiveness goes in my opinion. In conversations I have had with a few of you in guild (Goolan, Murderface, etc...) you also agree. However with that said it can be a gauge to at least let you know if you are contributing to the party in dealing damage and putting monsters to rest. I mostly look at the kills obtain when I am in a party that fights a lot together. what I mean is if we have an encounter where all 6 party members are fighting a mob together and once those unruley sorts have been dispatched I like to look at how I contributed in that particular fight. This is a better gauge as all that were involded in dealing some damage were active. Note: Never gauge yourself or others if you or they are running way ahead of the party in an effort to stack their kill count.

With all of this said there are some minor tweaks I plan on for Harper still to come.

I have attached a link to SableShadow's rogue post on Brenna Wavekin, very informational read to say the least.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401&highlight=notes+dancing+rogue

[shores11]

Harper's Rogue Search Stats:

84 = Search
+23 = Rank (skill points added per level)
+15 = Search equipment (I use Tharnes goggles but you can use any +15 item)
+09 = Intellegence modifier (INT = 29)
-----> INT 16 base
-----> INT tome +2
-----> INT helm +6
-----> INT greensteel dagger +3 exceptional intellegence
-----> INT potion from DDO store +2 stackable intellegence
+05 = Rogue skill boost (enhancement)
+04 = Greater heroism (spell/scroll)
+04 = Mechanic II (enhancement)
+04 = Elven Perception IV (enhancement)
+04 = Rogue Search IV (enhancement)
+03 = Skill Mastery x3 (feat)
+03 = Greensteel necklace +3 boost to intellegence skills (will get +3 more when I can tier 3 my necklace)
+03 = Dragontouch vestments to intellegence skills (yes, this stacks with everything else I have)
+02 = Elven Keen Senses (feat)
+02 = Bards songs
+02 = Head of Good Fortune (Note: If you do not have the head "Prayer" will give you a +1 luck bonus, but Prayer and the head do not stack.)
+01 = Trap search scrolls

Harper's Rogue Disable Stats:

89 (90-110) = Disable Device
+23 = Rank (skill points added per level)
+15 = Search equipment (I use a Mechanics belt, but you can use any +15 item)
(+01-20) = Dice roll
+09 = Intellegence modifier (INT = 29)
-----> INT 16 base
-----> INT tome +2
-----> INT helm +6
-----> INT greensteel dagger +3 exceptional intellegence
-----> INT potion from DDO store +2 stackable intellegence
+07 = +5 (+2) thieves tools, total +7
+05 = Rogue skill boost (enhancement)
+04 = Greater heroism (spell/scroll)
+04 = Mechanic II (enhancement)
+04 = Rogue Search IV (enhancement)
+03 = Ventilated Bracers (from Stormreaver)
+03 = Skill Mastery x3 (feat)
+03 = Greensteel necklace +3 boost to intellegence skills (will get +3 more when I can tier 3 my necklace)
+03 = Dragontouch vestments to intellegence skills (yes, this stacks with everything else I have)
+02 = Nimble Fingers (feat)
+02 = Bards songs
+02 = Head of Good Fortune (Note: If you do not have the head "Prayer" will give you a +1 luck bonus, but Prayer and the head do not stack.)

[Artos_Fabril]

+2 INT tome: +2 to intellegence (yep, still looking for +3 or better)

Just a note on something you certainly know but may be forgetting: if your int is odd a +3 tome is as good as a +4, if it's even, a +2 is as good as a +3.

[SableShadow]

I had the hardest time surviving the fire trap in that inclining hall in Chains of Flame. I will figure these things out as I go and stratigize better to survive them maybe carry fire shield scrolls is one possibility.

*Always* carry fireshield once you've got the umd for it. Fireshield + imp evasion will bring elemental traps like, say, wizking levers down to just under 400 pts of damage.


> Others?: Let me know what I am missing that could help me.

Talk to Yarrowmill in House D.
Trade Alchemist's Chapbooks for +3 int and int skills pots.

[Draccus]

Great stuff and keep the updates coming! I think too many of us (myself included) immediately looked at the ridiculous DCs on those Epic Traps and said "No thanks, I'll just heal through them." I'm glad to see someone addressing them directly. I'm not the guy to do, though!

That being said, I will send out a bit of a warning to other rogues on your comments about melee. While I don't know your whole build, I caution other rogues to think that just having 20 levels of rogue automatically makes for great DPS. I'm not saying you are advocating this, but others might make that mistake. I say this because I've heard it. I actually heard a rogue tell a Shroud leader that he didn't need to bypass Arraetrikos' DR because he had sneak attack. Yes, I'm serious. His exact quote was "I don't neet that ****, man, Sneak Attack is my silver."

Look at the numbers. A rogue with no gear or enhancement help has a sneak attack that averages 35. That's it. 35 hit points of average damage per sneak attack. So let's assume he's using a rapier and, again, has no feats, enhancements, or gear to improve it. Let's at least assume he's using a good rapier, like Radiance II. That rapier is going to do an average of about 25 hp of damage per hit (including crits) with no help from strength. So a rogue with no gear, enhancments, or feats to help his melee is doing about 60 hp of damage per hit. To be frank, that's pathetic.

There are clerics, bards, and monks doing that much, or MORE damage per hit. There are fighters, rangers, and barbarians doing dramatically more than that. If you want 100hp crits and 65 hp sneak attacks, you're going to need some help from specific gear, feats, and enhancements.

I'm not AT ALL saying that this is what your rogue is doing. I'm also not saying that you have to be doing 150hp of damage per hit to be a viable character. What I'm doing is warning new rogues that simply having 20 levels of rogue sneak attacks isn't going to put you in the "good DPS" category. There's no rule that says you HAVE to be in the good DPS category but I wouldn't want a rogue to not be there and think he or she is.

That being said, I like the build concept and the hard numbers!

[SableShadow]

Great stuff and keep the updates coming! I think too many of us (myself included) immediately looked at the ridiculous DCs on those Epic Traps and said "No thanks, I'll just heal through them." I'm glad to see someone addressing them directly. I'm not the guy to do, though!

Huh? 56AP on a geared elf/drow and done.


That being said, I will send out a bit of a warning to other rogues on your comments about melee.

Up until the last mod, I'd have agreed with the OP.

Even now, it's still a lotta damage...*but*, when you factor in items that work available, PrEs that work available, and most particularly the last round of attack rate changes, all in combination...not so much.

Here's hoping we get a PrE better than Tempest for next mod...or maybe they decide to let us twitch TWF as effectively as THF. :P

[shores11]

Just a note on something you certainly know but may be forgetting: if your int is odd a +3 tome is as good as a +4, if it's even, a +2 is as good as a +3.

Thanks for the information, yes I did know that and is why a +4 INT tome may not be the best for me at this point since I am already at an odd number.

[shores11]

That being said, I will send out a bit of a warning to other rogues on your comments about melee. While I don't know your whole build, I caution other rogues to think that just having 20 levels of rogue automatically makes for great DPS. I'm not saying you are advocating this, but others might make that mistake. I say this because I've heard it. I actually heard a rogue tell a Shroud leader that he didn't need to bypass Arraetrikos' DR because he had sneak attack. Yes, I'm serious. His exact quote was "I don't need that ****, man, Sneak Attack is my silver."

Look at the numbers. A rogue with no gear or enhancement help has a sneak attack that averages 35. That's it. 35 hit points of average damage per sneak attack. So let's assume he's using a rapier and, again, has no feats, enhancements, or gear to improve it. Let's at least assume he's using a good rapier, like Radiance II. That rapier is going to do an average of about 25 hp of damage per hit (including crits) with no help from strength. So a rogue with no gear, enhancments, or feats to help his melee is doing about 60 hp of damage per hit. To be frank, that's pathetic.

There are clerics, bards, and monks doing that much, or MORE damage per hit. There are fighters, rangers, and barbarians doing dramatically more than that. If you want 100hp crits and 65 hp sneak attacks, you're going to need some help from specific gear, feats, and enhancements.

I'm not AT ALL saying that this is what your rogue is doing. I'm also not saying that you have to be doing 150hp of damage per hit to be a viable character. What I'm doing is warning new rogues that simply having 20 levels of rogue sneak attacks isn't going to put you in the "good DPS" category. There's no rule that says you HAVE to be in the good DPS category but I wouldn't want a rogue to not be there and think he or she is.

That being said, I like the build concept and the hard numbers!

Thanks for the great feedback and I really do appreciate the constructive way you did it. I wanted to reply with some of the following points.

> I agree nothing about being a pure level 20 rogue especially a mechanic says "great DPS" about it. Part of this is if your playing your rogue properly you would not want to pull aggro in most cases. As playing a rogue D&D (pnp style) pulling aggro would normally spell doom for a rogue.

> I am not going to analyze what damage a rogue will do with his sneak attack with no gear, as I would never do that. I do not do that with any of my other 9 characters either and as with them I attack with full gear on. With that said I will say that my rogue's sneak attack damage alone is at around 50 to 60 per sneak attack hit. Add in the damage I get from my weapons (rapiers usually) I am getting another 40 + or so per hit and maybe a bit more on criticals. As a TWF in melee I am hitting 100hp of damage per hit on most occasions. Now if you take into effect that I am getting 2 to 3 hits per turn as compared to a THF then we are talking damage that is respectable. Does that mean I think a rogue is on the same level as a fighter, paladin or barbarian - NO. All I am advocating is that you can be an excellent trapsmith and also be a very effective melee fighter in a party. Many many folks will say that a trapsmith rogue similar to my build is gimp in all other aspects of the game. I am here to say that this is a myth and very untrue.

> Lastly I will not argue the point that against some foe a rogue has some difficulty. Obviously undead is a major issue for rogue's because you can not sneak attack them and sneak attack is the major stat that helps a rogue to put out good damage numbers. I will also say against some bosses like Arraetrikos a rogue is not facing his best foe for his damage output. Do I still get sneak attack, yes but compared to what is happening with barbarians, fighters and paladins it is not sustainable damage and that is critical. I have to constantly be aware of where he is facing and ensure I am on his back or simply put I'm dead.

In summary if you play your rogue the way you built him/her then they can be very effective in multiple ways not just with a trap.

[SableShadow]

Does that mean I think a rogue is on the same level as a fighter, paladin or barbarian - NO.


Do I still get sneak attack, yes but compared to what is happening with barbarians, fighters and paladins it is not sustainable damage and that is critical.

Stop it.

Just...stop it.

If you want to do traps, ok, do traps...plenty of people on the forums will help you with that, me included.

Thing is, these are the classes you're competing with - and you are competing - for slots. If you can't (or won't) spend the energy to at least compete with them, guess what?

No slots.

If you're not going to sell yourself as a DPS class, you're hosed...more importantly, other people wearing the same purple icon are hosed....and it sure sounds to me like you're not selling yourself as a DPS class.

Yes, I'm very aware that "kill count doesn't mean anything"...but it's the only measure out there right now, so if you want people to think you don't suck as a melee, it is necessary to get kills.

If you're a monk or a rogue, you start on the "don't bring" column already in most folk's books, so you need to get more kills than a same level barb or fighter (plus not die even once :P), if you want to get invited back. After all, you've got a 6 sided HD...-2 con for elf...if the raid leader doesn't bring you to kill stuff, what does he bring you for? :confused:



All I am advocating is that you can be an excellent trapsmith and also be a very effective melee fighter in a party.

Then you need to demonstrate that with more than just a feel good "I contribute" comment.

Traps in DDO are a zero sum game: anything you spend to get them you can't use somewhere else. A couple points of int here or there, a few AP here or there, and no one will actually notice...when you start talking about the majority of your AP or a ton of build points, then, yeah, people will start to notice.

If you're serious about selling the point that "I'm not gimped getting these traps", you really need to start with your Int (14+2 tome...same as mine, btw...), then walk through the 50ish AP you're using just to get traps, then work backwards:

> 80 - 56 = 24
> 3AP for Racial Toughness I and II
> 10AP for SA Training I, II, III, IV
> 10AP for SA Acc I, II, III, IV
> 1AP for SB I

Feel free to illustrate based on your own build; these are just some examples.

Now you can start talking about costs to hit those traps and can say something other than "I contribute".

"I contribute" has been digging the grave of the class since Mod 0.

[shores11]

Stop it.

Just...stop it. ???? Stop what, your confusion of what I am saying, I can not control that.

If you want to do traps, ok, do traps...plenty of people on the forums will help you with that, me included. I am not posting this to ask for help, I know how to build a rogue let me know if you need assistance.

Thing is, these are the classes you're competing with - and you are competing - for slots. If you can't (or won't) spend the energy to at least compete with them, guess what? If you think that a rogue can do the same amount of damage a fighter type class can without sneak attack then your dillusional because they can not. This is what I meant by sustainable damage. Can they do as much damage or nearly as much as a fighter type class with sneak attack absolutely and I said that.

No slots. Again, I have no problem with getting into any group with my rogue. If you do then you may have build issues.

If you're not going to sell yourself as a DPS class, you're hosed...more importantly, other people wearing the same purple icon are hosed....and it sure sounds to me like you're not selling yourself as a DPS class. I disagree with you on this. If you are trying to sell yourself as a pure DPS class as a rogue then your only fooling yourself.

Yes, I'm very aware that "kill count doesn't mean anything"...but it's the only measure out there right now, so if you want people to think you don't suck as a melee, it is necessary to get kills. Again, never had a problem with this issue.

If you're a monk or a rogue, you start on the "don't bring" column already in most folk's books, so you need to get more kills than a same level barb or fighter (plus not die even once :P), if you want to get invited back. After all, you've got a 6 sided HD...-2 con for elf...if the raid leader doesn't bring you to kill stuff, what does he bring you for? :confused: I'll post as soon as I ever have problems getting into a group.

Then you need to demonstrate that with more than just a feel good "I contribute" comment. Come correct please...

Traps in DDO are a zero sum game: anything you spend to get them you can't use somewhere else. A couple points of int here or there, a few AP here or there, and no one will actually notice...when you start talking about the majority of your AP or a ton of build points, then, yeah, people will start to notice. Your point here was a bit all over the place so not really sure to what your saying. When my rogue is getting all traps from normal to epic they notice, when my rogue is leading in kill count or nearly leading in kill count they notice.

If you're serious about selling the point that "I'm not gimped getting these traps", you really need to start with your Int (14+2 tome...same as mine, btw...), then walk through the 50ish AP you're using just to get traps, then work backwards: Again, I am not selling anything and I am also not one of those people that need to go out of my way to sell or prove anything you see I DO NOT feel this kind of pressure from anyone and have not my entire life. I am only posting this to let those players know that want to know that 1) getting those traps on epic is achievable and not that difficult and 2) that DO NOT let anyone say a trapsmith rogue is gimp.

> 80 - 56 = 24
> 3AP for Racial Toughness I and II
> 10AP for SA Training I, II, III, IV
> 10AP for SA Acc I, II, III, IV
> 1AP for SB I

Feel free to illustrate based on your own build; these are just some examples.

Now you can start talking about costs to hit those traps and can say something other than "I contribute". Again nothing in anything I wrote isolates the term "I contribute" that was something you did because I have not said anything to suggest that. That is just you twisting what I said, period.

Feel free to learn how to better read and comprehend what other people say or write, this is just a suggestion.

"I contribute" has been digging the grave of the class since Mod 0.

Wow, if I could disagree with you more I would. But I never said all I do is contribute when it comes to DPS. I laid out some very good DPS explanations in my previous post and I do bring very good DPS to any party. I have been playing for over 4 years now (since 10-day pretrial) and to be honest I have never even once had an issue with my rogue getting invited even to quest where there are no traps. Do I lead in kill counts (which seems to be important to you) all of the time? NO. Do I often lead in kill count? YES.

You have somehow missed the bulk of my point which is to say that you can be a top flight trapsmith and also be a very effective melee class. Which is contrary to what alot of players say.

I have 10 characters and half of them are level 20. Of those 10, 3 are various rogue builds which says I love playing rogue's and I do. Just come correct when you feel you need to blast.

[SableShadow]

This is what I meant by sustainable damage. Can they do as much damage or nearly as much as a fighter type class with sneak attack absolutely and I said that.

If you mean exactly that, then you need to say exactly that. My take-away...and I doubt I'm alone in this, judging from Drac's comments on your early post...is that rogue DPS is secondary to other melee classes.


Do I lead in kill counts (which seems to be improtant to you) all of the time? NO. Do I often lead in kill count? YES.

Good!

See, those are exactly the points you weren't making in your previous posts, but they are exactly the points you need to make for people to take your thesis, "Spec'ing for these traps won't gimp you" seriously.

True?


Just come correct when you feel you need to blast.

That was mild, man. Sorry if you felt flamed. Look up a couple posts to my response to Drac....and I've got pages and pages that say "there's huge DPS is in the class levels".

Lately, tho...just not feeling it. Yes, you get the damage free with the levels, but...honestly...just not feelin' it these days.

Again, if you're serious about selling the point that "I'm not gimped getting these traps", you really need to start with your Int (14+2 tome...same as mine, btw...), then walk through the 50ish AP you're using just to get traps, then work backwards.

> 80 - 56 = 24
> 3AP for Racial Toughness I and II
> 6AP for SA Training I, II, III
> 10AP for SA Acc I, II, III, IV
> 3AP for SB II
> 1AP for Haste Boost I
> 1AP (?)

That's my cut on how I'd do it tomorrow, with minimal loss in DPS. I've got 1 rank of Skill Mastery, and Sneak of Shadows...I'd be loath to drop Crippling Strike or Slippery Mind for another rank of Skill Mastery, and I'd be cutting my own throat if I dumped Improved Evasion...so that means full or nearly full ranks both elf and rogue Search.

[shores11]

If you mean exactly that, then you need to say exactly that. My take-away...and I doubt I'm alone in this, judging from Drac's comments on your early post...is that rogue DPS is secondary to other melee classes.

Good!

See, those are exactly the points you weren't making in your previous posts, but they are exactly the points you need to make for people to take your thesis, "Spec'ing for these traps won't gimp you" seriously.

True?

That was mild, man. Sorry if you felt flamed. Look up a couple posts to my response to Drac....and I've got pages and pages that say "there's huge DPS is in the class levels".

Lately, tho...just not feeling it. Yes, you get the damage free with the levels, but...honestly...just not feelin' it these days.

Again, if you're serious about selling the point that "I'm not gimped getting these traps", you really need to start with your Int (14+2 tome...same as mine, btw...), then walk through the 50ish AP you're using just to get traps, then work backwards.

> 80 - 56 = 24
> 3AP for Racial Toughness I and II
> 6AP for SA Training I, II, III
> 10AP for SA Acc I, II, III, IV
> 3AP for SB II
> 1AP for Haste Boost I
> 1AP (?)

That's my cut on how I'd do it tomorrow, with minimal loss in DPS. I've got 1 rank of Skill Mastery, and Sneak of Shadows...I'd be loath to drop Crippling Strike or Slippery Mind for another rank of Skill Mastery, and I'd be cutting my own throat if I dumped Improved Evasion...so that means full or nearly full ranks both elf and rogue Search.

I hear you this time and you actually came accross more constructive this time in my opinion. I also did not drop improved evasion as I would never do that either. I did take 3 levels of skill mastery which I plan on backing off on once I get my shroud item upgraded to tier 3. This was first an effort to get those traps but it really has not effected my DPS much not having crippling strike which is what I will take when I finish upgrading and get another item or two.

I will also re-edit my stats above when I can but as I said I threw this together on a break at work so I am trying to do some of this from memory. I'll need to get my character up in DDO to get more information on his skills.

[SableShadow]

I hear you this time and you actually came accross more constructive this time in my opinion.

"Message received is the message sent" they used to say, so if you felt it was more constructive, then it was more constructive.

Thing is, this is the boards; anyone can say "it's fine" or "it's gimped" left and right, and it just costs a few shadows on a phosphor screen.

Until someone lays out cost vs gain, it's difficult to make heads or tails over any general claims one way or the other.


I also did not drop improved evasion as I would never do that either. I did take 3 levels of skill mastery which I plan on backing off on once I get my shroud item upgraded to tier 3. This was first an effort to get those traps but it really has not effected my DPS much not having crippling strike which is what I will take when I finish upgrading and get another item or two.

Yeah, I've had a Tier III skills and a Tier III int weapon since I had the larges to afford them...Mod 8, I think, for the skills item and Mod 7 (ish) for the weapon, iirc.

Crippling Stike is semi-meh in epics w/ the stat damage fortification mobs have. I have gotten some stuff to auto-crit, but rarely and only when I had to beat down critters solo (e.g. dual rads on eADQ reavers when I have to do them solo, so I want that blindness applied over and over again).

Slippery Mind, tho, pretty much a must have imho...cha + FoP or Pali builds...heck, even 13/6/1 Tempests might not care, but I shortman a lot, so am eating a fair number of even the current watered down will saves.


I will also re-edit my stats above when I can but as I said I threw this together on a break at work so I am trying to do some of this from memory. I'll need to get my character up in DDO to get more information on his skills.

Sure, easier to talk to something if it's in front of you.

[shores11]

Bumping this once as I have finally updated my search skill information in the second post in this thread.

[SableShadow]

Bumping this once as I have finally updated my search skill information in the second post in this thread.

Thanks for the update, good breakdown.



+03 = Dragontouch vestments to intellegence skills (yes, this stacks with everything else I have)

Won't stack with your planned third tier, tho...it's the same +3 ex skill bonus. Haven't tried it specifically w/ int, but I've tried it with +3 cha skills on DT...didn't stack w/ my GS cha skills item.


+04 = I am missing +4 points from somewhere. I get to 80 search by myself, the bard and cleric bonuses get me to 83. Once I figue out where this +4 is coming from I will re-edit.


Mechanic II?

[shores11]

Mechanic II?

Bingo, thanks.

[Artos_Fabril]

So 32AP invested in search, assuming you would have gotten skill boost 4 anyway, and if this (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my_(insert_rogue_skill)_high_enough):
EPIC Vault of Night (VON5)
Editorial: these marks are out of line ridiculous. No one in their right mind wil expect a rogue to hit these.
Disable Device: 90+ DC.
Search: <= 82 DCis accurate, you still have a 15+% chance to blow the box with the same score for your DD.
It seems to me like a very steep price to pay, but I'm glad someone made it work. maybe you'll be able to pin down those DD targets a little more closely, and by taking those points away one at a time, you should be able to get exact numbers on the search DC as well. (with bard without prayer=82, with prayer without bard=81, pretty sure 80 is a confirmed fail)

[shores11]

So 32AP invested in search, assuming you would have gotten skill boost 4 anyway, and if this (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my_(insert_rogue_skill)_high_enough):is accurate, you still have a 15+% chance to blow the box with the same score for your DD.
It seems to me like a very steep price to pay, but I'm glad someone made it work. maybe you'll be able to pin down those DD targets a little more closely, and by taking those points away one at a time, you should be able to get exact numbers on the search DC as well. (with bard without prayer=82, with prayer without bard=81, pretty sure 80 is a confirmed fail)

Like I said 82 is the comfirmed number for search no doubts about that. I searched on an 81 and failed add the cleric's prayer success. Search is definately 82.

Disable is my next project to nail down the number on and I will post my disable stats next and soon but they are pretty nice as well. I might have said it above and if I didn't it was an oversight. I was able to disable those traps on a lowest roll of 6. I ONLY blew one trap when I rolled a 1 but I also forgot to put on my ventillated bracers. So I am thinking I can disable on a roll of 3 possibily so much less than 15% failure rate.

[shores11]

Harper's Rogue Disable Stats:

I edited and added Harper's disable stats above in the second post for your viewing.

[shores11]

So 32AP invested in search, assuming you would have gotten skill boost 4 anyway, and if [url=http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my_(insert_rogue_skill)_high_enough]this[/url


It seems currently I can get my search 2 points higher than this link suggests. I know also that once I ever pull the head of good fortune (it just seems to be evading my rogue, though I have it on all of my other characters - go figure) that I will get to 85. Then I may be able to let one of those skill mastery's go for slippery mind or critical strike.

[SableShadow]

It seems currently I can get my search 2 points higher than this link suggests. I know also that once I ever pull the head of good fortune (it just seems to be evading my rogue, though I have it on all of my other characters - go figure) that I will get to 85.

HoGF gives you a +2 luck bonus, but you're already counting a +1 luck bonus from prayer. So, an additional +1 for 84.

[Artos_Fabril]

It seems currently I can get my search 2 points higher than this link suggests. I know also that once I ever pull the head of good fortune (it just seems to be evading my rogue, though I have it on all of my other characters - go figure) that I will get to 85. Then I may be able to let one of those skill mastery's go for slippery mind or critical strike.

Looks like although Epic content was added, noone did a proof pass over the top of the article, where it still says max ranks at level 16=19

[shores11]

Note: Please review the second post in this thread for the added disable device stats. I also want to thank everyone for their feedback.

[SableShadow]

Note: Please review the second post in this thread for the added disable device stats. I also want to thank everyone for their feedback.

+5 tools -> +7 DD

[shores11]

+5 tools -> +7 DD

Thanks for the information.

[Artos_Fabril]

+03 = Greensteel necklace +3 boost to intellegence skills (will get +3 more when I can tier 3 my necklace)
+03 = Dragontouch vestments to intellegence skills (yes, this stacks with everything else I have)

Exceptional skill bonuses of the same value don't stack, you'll you'll have to build the necklace as a +1 +2 exceptional int skills, since DT is giving you a straight +3 already.

Harper's Rogue Search Stats:
+03 = Skill Mastery x3 (class feat)
+02 = Elven Keen Senses (automatic racial feat)
+02 = Nimble Fingers (feat)

So, Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC: Piercing, improved evasion(class)? Or did you go str based and drop finesse? How did you spend your last 24AP?

[shores11]

Exceptional skill bonuses of the same value don't stack, you'll you'll have to build the necklace as a +1 +2 exceptional int skills, since DT is giving you a straight +3 already.

Exceptional INT bonuses stack as long as they are not the same value. My necklace already has +1 & +2 on it now. I understand that when I add +3 to my necklace the DT armor will not stack with each other but for me that is ok as it gives more options on items I can wear or use.

So, Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC: Piercing, improved evasion(class)? Or did you go str based and drop finesse? How did you spend your last 24AP?

Harper is a dexterity based rogue and has taken weapon finesse. I did take TWF, ITWF & GTWF along with improved critical piercing. I also took one feat in toughness as well and have a total of 282 HP. The HP I have is good for my play style as I play not to grab aggro as much as possible.

My last 24 AP, how did I spend them, I will just tell you what I have on my enhancements as I do not know exactly what I spent my last 24 AP's on.

Rogue Skill Boost IV
Rogue Cheat Death
Elven Dexterity II
Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Elven Perception IV
Rogue Acid Trap Lore I
Racial Toughness I
Rogue Mechanic II
Disable Device IV
Rogue Open Lock III
Rogue Search IV
Rogue Dexterity II
Rogue Improved Trap Sense IV

2AP - rogue cheat death


Harper's Ability Scores: Note these scores are with various items and tomes.
Strength: 24
Dexterity: 34
Constitution: 18
Intellegence: 29 (when buffed up)
Wisdom: 17
Charisma: 16

[shores11]

I hope this thread is useful to many aspiring young rogue's out there that here things from many players that only believe a rogue level should be splashed. Don't get me wrong I have splashed a rogue into one of my characters and he turned out just fine. However a pure rogue dedicated to trapsmithing at the epic level can also be very effective in melee combat as well.

[Artos_Fabril]

Your last 24 points were spent on:
4 points of dex (12AP)
Capstone (2AP)
+1 damage (2AP)
10hp (1AP)
+4 saves vs. traps (7AP)
So not really optimized for DPS to make up what you lose in feats and the first 56AP.


I hope this thread is useful to many aspiring young rogue's out there that here things from many players that only believe a rogue level should be splashed. Don't get me wrong I have splashed a rogue into one of my characters and he turned out just fine. However a pure rogue dedicated to trapsmithing at the epic level can also be very effective in melee combat as well.
I want to agree with you, but I don't think that's been proven by any means.
What are we calling "combat effective"? Would you say that if the number crunch predicts 90% of ranger/fighter DPS against 0% fort mobs, that's combat effective? What would that mean for your melee effectiveness versus, for instance, the epic bosses that you're running this build to trapsmith your way to?

Maybe I'm missing something here, I really hope I am, because what I think I'm seeing is a one-trick pony trapsmith.

[shores11]

Your last 24 points were spent on:
4 points of dex (12AP)
Capstone (2AP)
+1 damage (2AP)
10hp (1AP)
+4 saves vs. traps (7AP)
So not really optimized for DPS to make up what you lose in feats and the first 56AP.


I want to agree with you, but I don't think that's been proven by any means.
What are we calling "combat effective"? Would you say that if the number crunch predicts 90% of ranger/fighter DPS against 0% fort mobs, that's combat effective? What would that mean for your melee effectiveness versus, for instance, the epic bosses that you're running this build to trapsmith your way to?

Maybe I'm missing something here, I really hope I am, because what I think I'm seeing is a one-trick pony trapsmith.

Your perception is your own but he is definately no one trick pony. I run a total of 10 characters and of those 6 are some sort of melee class. Combat effective as I have explained is that I am hitting for an average of 80+ HP per swing non-critical so 160+ per round non-critical is nothing to sneeze about. I am not going to continue to try and convince anyone about Harper's melee capability you can have your opinion. The fact is I know what I have and what Harper can do.

Yuor welcome to doubt all you want. Nothing I see that you have done convinces your input has any value at all.

[Ybbald]

What feats did you take? You might possibly squeeze in skill focus: Disable Device


Also, what should my lvl 15 rogue be doing per swing in damage?
I'm f2p and the vale is my only pack so I don't have all the uber gear yet (Like tharne's D: )
I'm still flagging for shroud to make radiance II. I heard that you can make several tier II items before your first tier III is done. Since Radiance I is kinda useless, should I make my first item be something else? The summon dense earth elemental intrigues me cause an extra tank to draw agro is always nice

[shores11]

What feats did you take? You might possibly squeeze in skill focus: Disable Device


Also, what should my lvl 15 rogue be doing per swing in damage?
I'm f2p and the vale is my only pack so I don't have all the uber gear yet (Like tharne's D: )
I'm still flagging for shroud to make radiance II. I heard that you can make several tier II items before your first tier III is done. Since Radiance I is kinda useless, should I make my first item be something else? The summon dense earth elemental intrigues me cause an extra tank to draw agro is always nice

1) Takinig feats in skill focus is always an option. I did not take any but did think hard on it as I was tempted. All of the skill numbers in the post were done without having to take skill focus search or disable so I think it is not a needed feat. Thats just my 2cp.

2) I am not sure of the damage you should be doing per level but on a non-critical hit 20 to 30 points of damage plus your 40 to 50 on backstabbing make for about the right amount of damage per swing. Keep in mind your doing about 3 swings per turn so that is good damage. Of course you need to add in the damage depending on what other enhancements your weapon might have i.e. elemental, maiming, pure good, etc...

3) Once you take the 2nd tier on your weapon in The Shroud you find that it is better than most other weapons you can find with a few exceptions. As a rogue in my opinion the radiance II rapier is a must and that would be my primary focus to get. I duel weild most of the time the radiance II rapier with ths shortsword Treason from the raid The Reavers Refuge. I like the supporting damage it does along with the threat reduction which helps me to maintain my sneak attack numbers.

4) I have a ranger with a triple earth longbow and I enjoy very much the occasional earth grab from it and the elemental clickies you get. I think that a radiance rapier and a earth grab rapier or shortsword together would not be a bad combination as the earth grab does go off often enough for me. Of course the danger is that you might be pulling some aggro more often than you want.

[shores11]

One of the things that make this thread a nice thread is the way SableShadow rebutted me and both he and I after initially disagreeing was able to see each others points. I came off of my high horse and so did he, thanks SableShadow.

Because of this I was able to see and correct things that made the post better and relay some good information to share with all of you.

What he did not do was shout out things like "one trick pony" or other ridiculous comments like that. Will a build like Harper be the heaviest damage producer in game, no will he continue to be a very good DPS melee fighter obsolutely. All it takes is to play your rogue the D&D (pnp) layed out a rogue and use your sneak attack/backstabbing and your damage output will make you almost without trying a good DPS contributor to the quest.

Thanks again SableShadow for your input.

[Razcar]

Will a build like Harper be the heaviest damage producer in game, no will he continue to be a very good DPS melee fighter obsolutely. All it takes is to play your rogue the D&D (pnp) layed out a rogue and use your sneak attack/backstabbing and your damage output will make you almost without trying a good DPS contributor to the quest.
First: This - Is - Not - PnP. This is another game. While based on the PnP version, in the transition to a live-action MMO format it changed immensely, and has continued further and further away over the years. If you copy your characters from the D&D PnP game they will be at a disadvantage in this game - DDO.


I hope this thread is useful to many aspiring young rogue's out there that here things from many players that only believe a rogue level should be splashed. Don't get me wrong I have splashed a rogue into one of my characters and he turned out just fine. However a pure rogue dedicated to trapsmithing at the epic level can also be very effective in melee combat as well.

Secondly, and more importantly: You say you have 5 capped characters, which makes you an experienced player. I don't doubt that with skill and experience you can make this extreme trap build work well in quest, despite the 280 HP and close to no combat feats/enhancements. My problem is instead with your intention of this post. I would NOT recommend either this build nor the approach to any new player.

In fact, I think it is irresponsible to do so. By recommending this approach to new players - 10 start Con, 16 start Int, 280 HP at level 20, almost all feats and enhancements trap-oriented - you are hurting the class and new players building rogues. If they copy this build, or the approach, and play it without the know-how I assume you have, they will die, die and die. They will be a burden to the rest of the party, expect for the 0-5 times per quest (and even less often in raids) when there will be a trap to disarm. Because they wont have any HP, no AC and medium to low DPS - and no skill and no experience to make it work anyway.

This is akin to recommending the 16 16 16 8 8 8 Ravager-type rogue to a new player. It's an extreme build. If you are a new player, please build a balanced rogue instead, with focus on survivability, combat, and then traps. Not the other way around.

[shores11]

Wow...



First: This - Is - Not - PnP. This is another game. While based on the PnP version, in the transition to a live-action MMO format it changed immensely, and has continued further and further away over the years. If you copy your characters from the D&D PnP game they will be at a disadvantage in this game - DDO.

First and for most I am not in anyway copying Harper from a pnp D&D game please do not come into this thread and murder the point of it with your unfounded assertions. Your suggestion that a pnp character would be at a disadvantage in an MMO like DDO is an obvious one to which I would never do.

Secondly, and more importantly: You say you have 5 capped characters, which makes you an experienced player. I don't doubt that with skill and experience you can make this extreme trap build work well in quest, despite the 280 HP and close to no combat feats/enhancements. My problem is instead with your intention of this post. I would NOT recommend either this build nor the approach to any new player.

My intention: I in know way ever one time in this post suggested this build was for new players. I did say that it was good rogue mechanic build that can get traps at all difficulties and still contribute very well in melee combat. I know he can because I do it all the time and I do not die, die, die as you suggest.

In fact, I think it is irresponsible to do so. By recommending this approach to new players - 10 start Con, 16 start Int, 280 HP at level 20, almost all feats and enhancements trap-oriented - you are hurting the class and new players building rogues. If they copy this build, or the approach, and play it without the know-how I assume you have, they will die, die and die. They will be a burden to the rest of the party, expect for the 0-5 times per quest (and even less often in raids) when there will be a trap to disarm. Because they wont have any HP, no AC and medium to low DPS - and no skill and no experience to make it work anyway.

I do not understand why you make a suggestion of irresponsibilty on top of an assumption you made up yourself. Again I only offer this information so that others know that certain things can be done that some thought could not be done. Many players I believe falsely claim to build a character like I have done gimp's him like you are suggesting. I only know that your claim is untrue because I have seen it first hand. In other words know what your talking about before you open (or in this case write) mouth. Harper goes into many, many, many, many quests that have no traps and is often the top killer and damage dealer. What do you say to that? Finally my DPS is not medium to low as I mentioned in the previous sentence. I tell the young folks in my family never ever to assume or talk like you know something when you really do not. I offer you the same advice...

This is akin to recommending the 16 16 16 8 8 8 Ravager-type rogue to a new player. It's an extreme build. If you are a new player, please build a balanced rogue instead, with focus on survivability, combat, and then traps. Not the other way around.

Although I never recommended anyone build the rogue I have you would have them build a rogue per your suggestion. That my friend is a sign of true arrogance, plus it is obvious since I can do in spades on my character what you say I can not that you do not know what your talking about. If I was a new player or any other player I would certainly not take your suggestions.

[Razcar]

Wow...
Why don't you try reading my post again. You see, I was responding to things you said previously.

But I'll give it another go here: Your main mistake is that you seem to miss the connection between yourself and your character. You have a 280 HP extremely trap-focused rogue. You think that build is "a very good DPS melee fighter" (you again, even got the colour in there...). Your evidence why he is such a very good combatant is that you do well in quests. That's the "proof", and with that you "hope this thread is useful to many aspiring young rogue's". But instead, maybe the reason you can make this fly is because you are an experienced player. That's my point.

And I didn't say that you die a lot, I have no idea how often you die. I said new players playing a build like this would - a rogue with 280 at cap has very small margins on tough content. And that's why I would recommend any new players to stay away from a build that sacrifices so much for getting high trap skills. It is a hard build to play successfully when you are not facing a trap box and clicking the disable icon.


...you would have them build a rogue per your suggestion. That my friend is a sign of true arrogance, plus it is obvious since I can do in spades on my character what you say I can not that you do not know what your talking about. If I was a new player or any other player I would certainly not take your suggestions.I think you are confused here, heck at least I am by your response. If by my "suggestion" you mean the Ravager; well I mentioned that type of extreme combat rogue because I did not recommend a new player to build one, the same way I wouldn't recommend an extreme trap rogue like yours.

However, I did post a "starter rogue" build here on this forum previously. If that is the build you mean by my "suggestion", I suppose my alleged arrogance would stem from the fact that I disagree with you.

And a parting tip: avoid saying things like that others "do no know what they are talking about". That just makes you appear insecure, like your arguments are not strong enough by themselves, and so your attempted insult just ends up pointing back at yourself instead.

[shores11]

Why don't you try reading my post again. You see, I was responding to things you said previously.

But I'll give it another go here: Your main mistake is that you seem to miss the connection between yourself and your character. You have a 280 HP extremely trap-focused rogue. You think that build is "a very good DPS melee fighter" (you again, even got the colour in there...). Your evidence why he is such a very good combatant is that you do well in quests. That's the "proof", and with that you "hope this thread is useful to many aspiring young rogue's". But instead, maybe the reason you can make this fly is because you are an experienced player. That's my point.

And I didn't say that you die a lot, I have no idea how often you die. I said new players playing a build like this would - a rogue with 280 at cap has very small margins on tough content. And that's why I would recommend any new players to stay away from a build that sacrifices so much for getting high trap skills. It is a hard build to play successfully when you are not facing a trap box and clicking the disable icon.

I think you are confused here, heck at least I am by your response. If by my "suggestion" you mean the Ravager; well I mentioned that type of extreme combat rogue because I did not recommend a new player to build one, the same way I wouldn't recommend an extreme trap rogue like yours.

However, I did post a "starter rogue" build here on this forum previously. If that is the build you mean by my "suggestion", I suppose my alleged arrogance would stem from the fact that I disagree with you.

And a parting tip: avoid saying things like that others "do no know what they are talking about". That just makes you appear insecure, like your arguments are not strong enough by themselves, and so your attempted insult just ends up pointing back at yourself instead.


Ok - I would haved wished I saw your thread and, wait no I would not have came into your thread spouting off things like your irresponsible for your suggestion. What I might have done though is constructively offer other options at the most. I guess for my part that ends this thread for me, thank you.

[Pousoidis]

Shores 11, thank you for being irresponsible. I am a new player and I have been trying to understand in forums the complete and utter disgust of some people with the rogue mechanic prestige class. It still doesn't make sense to me and maybe I have my noobness to thank for this gift. After I am an experienced player, I may play a thief that charges to battle and kills everyone and all, including baby seals. For now, however, I enjoy the RPG aspect of the game and I want to be the nerd/geek of the party with a dwarf mechanic thief.

Now, some questions regarding your build.

a) When can I or would be prudent to buy (or just find) that +2 int tome? I have an impression that you can use them only after level 7. Is that true or can you use one at level 1 for instance (if you can buy it or transfer it or whatever)

b) How do you get your 17 wisd and 16 charisma?

c) Do all your level ups go on dexterity?

d) And most importantly (if you have time to answer 1 question, answer this one). Can you throw 1 level fighter in there and still hit those DC traps?

thanks

Nostramazos, bringing Maza Nostra to a theater near you.

[Ybbald]

Puos, it is like this.
A mechanic specializes in traps. Traps are very easy and you do not need to specialize to get them. It takes very little effort. It's like sending out a fully armored gladiator to kick a puppy.

In the higher levels much more than the early ones, the monsters have huge amounts of health so they're not too easy to kill. So to succeed in the quests, you need to deal lots of damage to them. You can reach a very high DPS on rogues without sacrificing any needed trap skills. Your mechanic might have higher rogue skills than me, but because traps are so easy, I can still disable traps on a 1 roll in a quest two levels above me. It's that easy. (It's a little harder at the first couple levels, but you don't have any benefit from mechanic then)
Every quest has lots of monsters that need to be killed. Not all of them have traps that need to be disabled, and when they do, they don't have very many.

This guy has built an entire character around doing a small part of a few quests at the top very end game content. There is no reason for a newbie to be doing this.

Now for your questions:

a) A +1 tome requires minimum lvl 3. A +2 requires minimum lvl 7. +3 are very rare and +4 is almost unheard of.

b) he custom rolled his rogue at creation instead of choosing a path. The rogue paths suck. They have too low con and str to be useful. Don't you ever make a rogue with less than 12 starting con.

c) He probably put his level ups into int since int increases your disabled device and search skills.

d) you certainly could. Just don't make it lvl 1 or lvl 20 when you add it. But if your purpose is to maximize trap skills, why throw in fighter? If you're trying to be better at melee, go assassin or acrobat.

You may want to be the nerd/geek of the party, but this is not DnD, this is DDO. This is an MMO. People want results. Your toon will be useless in most of the content and people will not want to play with you.

I started out like you, thinking traps were all rogues had to do and I know now how very wrong I was. I respecced from mechanic to assassin and I have seen a huge improvement in my toon. I die less. I often get more kills than fighters, rangers, and palladins in the group. And I can not remember the last time I have failed to disable a trap.

[shores11]

Thanks for your kind words, this is what I did.


Shores 11, thank you for being irresponsible. I am a new player and I have been trying to understand in forums the complete and utter disgust of some people with the rogue mechanic prestige class. It still doesn't make sense to me and maybe I have my noobness to thank for this gift. After I am an experienced player, I may play a thief that charges to battle and kills everyone and all, including baby seals. For now, however, I enjoy the RPG aspect of the game and I want to be the nerd/geek of the party with a dwarf mechanic thief.

Now, some questions regarding your build.

a) When can I or would be prudent to buy (or just find) that +2 int tome? I have an impression that you can use them only after level 7. Is that true or can you use one at level 1 for instance (if you can buy it or transfer it or whatever)

I found my +2 INT tome. I suppose you can buy it from the DDO store as well and yes a +2 tome can be used at level 7.

b) How do you get your 17 wisdom and 16 charisma?

Charisma = 10 start and a +6 cloak; Wisdom = 11 start and a +6 on my vestment.

c) Do all your level ups go on dexterity?

All my level ups were invested in dexterity.

d) And most importantly (if you have time to answer 1 question, answer this one). Can you throw 1 level fighter in there and still hit those DC traps?

Yes, If you throw a level of fighter in you will gain some additional feats and the ability to be a more direct line melee fighter. I chose not to go that route as I rely on my sneak attack for 2/3 of my damage numbers which means I am doing about 150 (with 3 swings per attack sequence) just in backstabbing, not counting the additional 60+ in damage per attack just on the base damage from my swords.

Warning: If you are going to build a character that is mainly a rogue it is most beneficial to take rogue at level 1 first.

thanks

Nostramazos, bringing Maza Nostra to a theater near you.

You will hear all sorts of mixed information about a pure class rogue much less a pure rogue that is a mechanic. Yes, I have maxed out or nearly maxed out my trapsmith skills on my mechanic rogue. However I am still laying down some major DPS as well no matter what anyone tells you. With the amount of damage I can put out there is a reason why I am NEVER refused an invite to a party and even sought out after and not always for my trapsmithing.

Good luck on your rogue.

[shores11]

Your post is interesting because you put out some good information and some very bad information in the same post.


Puos, it is like this.
A mechanic specializes in traps. Traps are very easy and you do not need to specialize to get them. It takes very little effort. It's like sending out a fully armored gladiator to kick a puppy.

Traps can be found and disabled yes by most rogue builds but there are a few quests (10% maybe) on elite that are very difficult to disable or find unless you have a heavy investment into trapsmithing. I have two other rogue builds an acrobat and a wiz/rogue that can find and disable traps very well but they can not get some some traps on elite in some quests. This I think is why the mechanic is viable in the game.

In the higher levels much more than the early ones, the monsters have huge amounts of health so they're not too easy to kill. So to succeed in the quests, you need to deal lots of damage to them. You can reach a very high DPS on rogues without sacrificing any needed trap skills. Your mechanic might have higher rogue skills than me, but because traps are so easy, I can still disable traps on a 1 roll in a quest two levels above me. It's that easy. (It's a little harder at the first couple levels, but you don't have any benefit from mechanic then)
Every quest has lots of monsters that need to be killed. Not all of them have traps that need to be disabled, and when they do, they don't have very many.

My mechanic rogue goes into many more quests without traps and holds his own or out kills the rest of the party in most cases. I am not blind to the damage a fighter, paladin or barbarian can do either one handed or two handed because I play those characterss as well except for a barbarian and they do some very nice damage. They can stand toe to toe with their foe and kill them like that whereas in many cases my rogue mechanic can not. But a pure rogue mechanic that usually plays with a party has a role to play even outside of trapsmithing.

I understand why my rogue mechanic gets so much DPS and kills over other fighter mainline fighter types because when I am playing with a rogue build in my party and I am on one of my fighter types they either also beat me in kills are come very close. This tells me that i can MAX my trapsmithing skills to contribute in major elite or epic quests and still provide major support to killing monsters. I know this because I have done it now for 4 + years.

This guy has built an entire character around doing a small part of a few quests at the top very end game content. There is no reason for a newbie to be doing this.

Again this is misinformation. Most players that are strongly against a rogue build like I have done are major into solo play. I rarely if ever solo a quest on any of my characters because I think it is extremely boring. I like to quest with a party and have done so for 4 plus years.

Now for your questions:

a) A +1 tome requires minimum lvl 3. A +2 requires minimum lvl 7. +3 are very rare and +4 is almost unheard of.

Good information and correct.

b) he custom rolled his rogue at creation instead of choosing a path. The rogue paths suck. They have too low con and str to be useful. Don't you ever make a rogue with less than 12 starting con.

I agree and I started my rogue with 12 con.

c) He probably put his level ups into int since int increases your disabled device and search skills.

Not correct, all of my level ups were put into dexterity.

d) you certainly could. Just don't make it lvl 1 or lvl 20 when you add it. But if your purpose is to maximize trap skills, why throw in fighter? If you're trying to be better at melee, go assassin or acrobat.

If you mean front line melee I can agree. However a mechanic can put out just much DPS but must rely more on not getting aggro.

You may want to be the nerd/geek of the party, but this is not DnD, this is DDO. This is an MMO. People want results. Your toon will be useless in most of the content and people will not want to play with you.

Unfortunatley wrong again. My rogue mechanic is one of my first original characters I built when I started playing in Feb. 2006. I have not ever been denied a spot in a quest I wanted to get in. You can not necessarily speak to some things if you have not walked that path. If you have and been rejected you might not be playing your rogue in a manner that best contributes to your party's success. If constructive I am always be willing to share my experiences.

I started out like you, thinking traps were all rogues had to do and I know now how very wrong I was. I respecced from mechanic to assassin and I have seen a huge improvement in my toon. I die less. I often get more kills than fighters, rangers, and palladins in the group. And I can not remember the last time I have failed to disable a trap.

I like you on my mechanic rogue usually out kill many fighters, rangers, etc... But I do it as a pure class rogue mechanic. One thing I do is respec every single build in the game no matter how much they contribute to a group because the main thing is this that build is that persons character and what they chose to build. If they seek advice or suggestions from me, I offer it if not I try as hard as I can to play with them and their choice. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't bottom line if your a good player you can make most character builds work.