MyDDO and Privacy Rights [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Cedwin

03-12-2010, 01:27 PM

Bottom line: Any feature that allows gf/wife/boss to see what hours you play is not a good thing. :eek:

lol. There should be an option to show or hide your character log at least, that's the only section that has timestamps.

They have an anonymous setting, but if you tell someone your character name, you aren't really anonymous anymore. There is no other way to see who your characters are with only a forum name, if your characters are anonymous.

Hjarki

03-12-2010, 01:28 PM

Please don't use the word "rights" in this context. Your "rights" begin and end with 'unsubscribe'.

Obviously many people want changes to MyDDO. But you are not entitled to any such change. It's Turbine's decision and they'll make it based on what they perceive as being best for the company.

Impaqt

03-12-2010, 01:29 PM

So you gonna want the Timestamps removed from our forum posts next?

Cedwin

03-12-2010, 01:30 PM

So you gonna want the Timestamps removed from our forum posts next?

Yes! I don't want my boss knowing when I was posting on the forums! :rolleyes:

Cholera

03-12-2010, 02:19 PM

Please don't use the word "rights" in this context. Your "rights" begin and end with 'unsubscribe'.

Actually, that's not true – not even a little.

Turbine would be the first to admit that legal considerations trump their right to design MyDDO as they wish. This being the case, the only real question here is whether or not posting a character’s play times constitutes a violation of one's right to privacy.

And I have strong doubts that it does.

Fenrisulven6

03-12-2010, 03:01 PM

Please don't use the word "rights" in this context. Your "rights" begin and end with 'unsubscribe'.

Wrong. I'm talking about the inalienable right, not the EULA.

Obviously many people want changes to MyDDO. But you are not entitled to any such change.

Obviously. Thats why I posted my obvious request here. :rolleyes:

It's Turbine's decision and they'll make it based on what they perceive as being best for the company.

Like making a Suggestion Forum to take input from customers?

[nom]

Impaqt

03-12-2010, 03:23 PM

Wrong. I'm talking about the inalienable right, not the EULA.

Which "inalienable" right would that be?

Just tell your Boos that playing DDO while on the job is your pursuit of Happiness.... and if he doesnt like it, you'll take him to court!

Fenrisulven6

03-12-2010, 03:26 PM

Which "inalienable" right would that be?

The rights you have regardless of whether or not they're written down on some document in DC.

Sirea

03-12-2010, 03:31 PM

Bottom line: Any feature that allows gf/wife/boss to see what hours you play is not a good thing. :eek:

Turbine, please allows users to go anonymous.

I can see how MyDDO is useful, but the people that need to be screened out probably cant find MyDDO to begin with.

If you're so secretive about when you play DDO, why are you telling you girlfriend/wife/boss what your toon names are so they can track you on myDDO?

I understand if you're playing at work when you're supposed to be, you know, working ( :rolleyes: ), you wouldn't want your boss to see that you are doing this. But why are you telling your boss your toon names and about myDDO anyway? And why are you playing at work when you know you shouldn't be? I would think in this kind of economy you'd be doing all you can to keep your job. That, and wouldn't most work computers have some sort of keylog or tracking devices on them to keep track of employees computer usage? They probably wouldn't even have to use myDDO to tell that you've been using your time unwisely.

Also, why would you need to hide the fact you play DDO to your wife or GF or what times you play? Either you have no cahones and your significant other has some severe control issues, or even you're embarrassed by how much you play and how little time you spend with her.

Impaqt

03-12-2010, 03:33 PM

The rights you have regardless of whether or not they're written down on some document in DC.

Like?

Cedwin

03-12-2010, 03:45 PM

I'd like to quote George Carlin on this one.

Now, if you think you do have rights, in Wikipedia, search for 'Japanese-Americans 1942'. You will find out all about your precious ****ing rights.

Just when these American citizens needed their rights most, they were taken away. And rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. They're privileges. That's all we've ever had in this country, a bill of TEMPORARY privileges. And if you read the news, even badly, you will know the list gets shorter, and shorter and shorter.

Personally, when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights or we have no rights at all.

Fenrisulven6

03-12-2010, 04:18 PM

If you're so secretive about when you play DDO why are you telling you girlfriend/wife/boss what your toon names are so they can track you on myDDO?

*sigh* Its a hypothetical. Dont get bogged down in it. You just wasted like 4 paragraphs asking me all kinds of personal questions...

Also, why would you need to hide the fact you play DDO to your wife or GF or what times you play? Either you have no cahones and your significant other has some severe control issues, or even you're embarrassed by how much you play and how little time you spend with her.

Sirea, why why do you need to hide the fact that you do "x" from your friends, your wife, your boss, the dog, or your next interview? Because obviously, its everyone's business to know when you are doing "x". :rolleyes:

Sirea

03-12-2010, 10:21 PM

*sigh* Its a hypothetical. Dont get bogged down in it. You just wasted like 4 paragraphs asking me all kinds of personal questions...

Sirea, why why do you need to hide the fact that you do "x" from your friends, your wife, your boss, the dog, or your next interview? Because obviously, its everyone's business to know when you are doing "x". :rolleyes:

You were the one that posted in the first place with your panties in a twist.

If you feel the need to hide something, that implies that you think you're doing something wrong. Why would I need to hide the fact that I play a computer game from my family or friends? My cat could care less as long as her food bowl is full and I pet her or throw a toy for her every once in a while. I doubt I'd bring up the fact that I play DDO, much less my individual toon names with any boss I had, or how to check out said toons on myDDO so they can see if I was raiding when I should have been working. Not that I'd do something that irresponsible at work anyway. And who would ever say "If I work here I'm going to use company time to play computer games" in an interview? :rolleyes:

Fenrisulven6

03-12-2010, 11:04 PM

You were the one that posted in the first place with your panties in a twist.

You're over-reacting. I've been calm and civil throughout this thread.

If you feel the need to hide something, that implies that you think you're doing something wrong.

"If you're innocent, there's no need to request a lawyer"

"If you done nothing wrong, then submit to the search, you shouldn't have anything to worry about"

Hey Sirea, can you post your medical records for us all to see? After all, you've got nothing to hide, right?

Sirea

03-12-2010, 11:22 PM

You're over-reacting. I've been calm and civil throughout this thread.

"If you're innocent, there's no need to request a lawyer"

"If you done nothing wrong, then submit to the search, you shouldn't have anything to worry about"

Hey Sirea, can you post your medical records for us all to see? After all, you've got nothing to hide, right?

LOL, I shouldn't have to spell out how drastically different medical records and the fact that I play a silly computer game are :rolleyes:

I don't even know why I entered into this debate, you've proven time and time again that you can't and won't listen to reason.

Missing_Minds

03-12-2010, 11:51 PM

The rights you have regardless of whether or not they're written down on some document in DC.

You mean "Privileges", not "Rights". Learn the difference.

The only world (planet Earth) based "Rights" you have, as far as I can tell, is the right to breath air.

Spookyaction

03-13-2010, 02:09 AM

If your boss wanted to know if you were playing ddo on company time wouldnt he have the it department find out ? I'm mean if you are worried just tell them its a shared account and someone in say Australia was using the account at the time.

Fenrisulven6

03-13-2010, 06:53 AM

shouldn't have to spell out how drastically different medical records and the fact that I play a silly computer game are

They are the same in that you claimed if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. Now you claim other privacy issues are somehow "different". Backpedal.

What if we could all see your cell phones records, who you call and when? You've got nothing to hide, right Sirea?

you've proven time and time again that you can't and won't listen to reason.

You're missing the point - your logic is flawed and you wont listen to reason.

You've just argued that telling the police you want a lawyer means you're guilty of something...

You mean "Privileges", not "Rights". Learn the difference.The only world (planet Earth) based "Rights" you have, as far as I can tell, is the right to breath air.

Thats not what the Founders and SCOTUS say. You should get an education.

just tell them its a shared account and someone in say Australia was using the account at the time.

You mean lie to your boss/gf/wife? Why should you have to lie to protect your privacy?

twix

03-13-2010, 08:05 AM

Maybe its just me but my girlfriend doesnt even know what myddo is let alone logging in to find my characters.Matter of fact she probably doesnt even know my character names.And we have been living with each other for five years.

Ddo is MY hobby. She is just not interested in it. Like im not interested in the stupid little facebook games she likes.
I understand where your coming from op but you obviously are setting yourself up .If your playin at wrok when your not supposed to of course there is a chance your boss will find out.With or without myddo.

If your girlfriend or wife has you locked in a closet and says no ddo and you break out to play you are only setting yourself up. Not to mention that if you playing ddo is that big of a deal you may want to consider taking a break anyways,but that is a whole nother thread.

Does your wife give you a set number of hours to play?Then she goes on myddo to check? If this is the case you either play way to much or your wife is a control freak who thinks she is your mother.

Dont Tell Me How To Live My Life !!!!!!!!!:)
Either way im sorry that you have people controlling your life to such an extent that they stalk you on myddo.

Fenrisulven6

03-13-2010, 05:35 PM

....I'm still amazed that people don't understand what "hypothetical" means.

They want to go on and on about "my" gf/wife/boss :rolleyes:

Cedwin

03-13-2010, 07:37 PM

....I'm still amazed that people don't understand what "hypothetical" means.

They want to go on and on about "my" gf/wife/boss :rolleyes:

They are answering your hypothetical question with hypothetical answers.

The simplest answer is, don't play ddo during work hours, or don't get caught.

As others have mentioned, you are playing Turbine's game, therefor you have no rights when it comes to your characters being displayed for everyone to see. They do in fact have the right to permanently delete your character anytime they want, or completely shut down the servers if they want to.. maybe read the EULA a little closer?

Missing_Minds

03-13-2010, 08:32 PM

Thats not what the Founders and SCOTUS say. You should get an education.

And you should realize your "right" to scream "fire" only goes so far. What the Founders stated as well as what SCOTUS upholds applies ONLY to the US. If your "right" was truly inalienable as you imply, it would extend beyond that, but it does not.

Impaqt

03-14-2010, 03:45 AM

They are the same in that you claimed if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide. Now you claim other privacy issues are somehow "different". Backpedal.

What if we could all see your cell phones records, who you call and when? You've got nothing to hide, right Sirea?

Who are you calling???

Pretty sure my Boss has the "Right" to pull the phone records from my desk and Cell and see every call thats gone in and out. And I'm totally OK with that.

....I'm still amazed that people don't understand what "hypothetical" means.

We all understand what "Hypothetical" means. Its what People say before they ask a question when they want to pretend the question doesnt actually apply to themselves.

Fenrisulven6

03-14-2010, 03:44 PM

And you should realize your "right" to scream "fire" only goes so far.

Non sequitur. Sounds nice but has nothing whatsoever to do with my point.

What the Founders stated as well as what SCOTUS upholds applies ONLY to the US. If your "right" was truly inalienable as you imply, it would extend beyond that, but it does not.

You don't understand the basic concepts. Inalienable rights are not "granted" by governments.

Pretty sure my Boss has the "Right" to pull the phone records from my desk and Cell

You think your boss has a right to examine your cell phone records? Really?

We all understand what "Hypothetical" means. Its what People say before they ask a question when they want to pretend the question doesnt actually apply to themselves.

No. Its hypothetical because 1) it hasnt happened to me and 2) I wanted to avoid all the idiots who would make it personal because they need MyDDO as a crutch.

Here it is again guys, the source of all your hostility:

Bottom line: Any feature that allows gf/wife/boss to see what hours you play is not a good thing.

Turbine, please allows users to go anonymous.

I can see how MyDDO is useful, but the people that need to be screened out probably cant find MyDDO to begin with.

Ghoste

03-14-2010, 03:49 PM

The only world (planet Earth) based "Rights" you have, as far as I can tell, is the right to breath air.
And only if that "right" does not conflict with someone-richer-than-you's right to make money.

Impaqt

03-14-2010, 03:54 PM

You think your boss has a right to examine your cell phone records? Really?

Of course. The company pasy for the phone. Why wouldnt they?

No. Its hypothetical because 1) it hasnt happened to me and 2) I wanted to avoid all the idiots who would make it personal because they need MyDDO as a crutch.

Here it is again guys, the source of all your hostility:

THats what they all say.. But its pretty transparent....

Fenrisulven6

03-14-2010, 04:01 PM

Of course. The company pasy for the phone. Why wouldnt they?

Your cell phone, not the company.

THats what they all say.. But its pretty transparent....

Assume away then. I'll be sure to return the favor.

I don't see why its such a big deal. Let players go anon, if you don't want to accept players who are MyDDO-anon, no one is forcing you to.

Missing_Minds

03-14-2010, 04:42 PM

Non sequitur. Sounds nice but has nothing whatsoever to do with my point.

You don't understand the basic concepts. Inalienable rights are not "granted" by governments.

Actually it does. You don't have rights here, you have privileges.

As far as inalienable ones, we are now allowed to discuss such on the forums as that then starts to enter into religious debates. In the end, I'm not the one that doesn't understand the circumstances, nor trying to talk circles about what is and is not.

Bottom line: Any feature that allows gf/wife/boss to see what hours you play is not a good thing.

Bottom line. Don't cheat. Don't lie. If you have problems with either of these two, you have much larger issues than what information Turbine has on you. Don't expect a corporate entity to protect your own rear end.

dredre9987

03-14-2010, 04:50 PM

Fenrisulven6

03-14-2010, 07:50 PM

You don't have rights here, you have privileges.

Wrong. You dont lose your rights because you sign a EULA. You're arguing that Turbune can quarter admin troops in your home. LOL.

And if you'd bother to read, you'd see that I'm NOT arguing to enforce some privacy right against Turbine - its a private club, and you don't like the rules you can leave. What I'm ASKING is that Turbine respect the privacy of its clients.

As far as inalienable ones, we are now allowed to discuss such on the forums as that then starts to enter into religious debates.

Now you are arguing that mentioning inalienable = religious debate. You're not making any sense.

Don't cheat. Don't lie. If you have problems with either of these two, you have much larger issues than what information Turbine has on you.

Huh? Where did I say anything about cheating or lying? Again, you make no sense.

ok i absolutely hate when people make a comment about "their rights" but have no clue what their rights are.

How ironic. Are you self-loathing?

Nott

03-15-2010, 06:45 AM

Wrong. You dont lose your rights because you sign a EULA. You're arguing that Turbune can quarter admin troops in your home. LOL. You don't lose any rights when you sign an EULA -- but your example is ridiculous. You don't have the right to absolute anonymity in everything you choose. You do have the right to avoid doing most things, however, that could threaten your desire for anonymity. Example: being associated in any way, shape, or form, with Turbine and DDO. You have the right to not be here. If you choose to forego that right, however, you do not gain the right to dictate the terms of your presence.

And if you'd bother to read, you'd see that I'm NOT arguing to enforce some privacy right against Turbine - its a private club, and you don't like the rules you can leave. What I'm ASKING is that Turbine respect the privacy of its clients.Elsewhere in this thread, you accused someone of backpedaling. Your own OP was titled "MyDDO and Privacy Rights". Looks like its you that's backpedaling now.

There's nothing wrong with your request that Turbine respect people's privacy. Had you made that request without making the claim that your (where 'your' is not restricted to you, but is instead the generic player) rights are involved here, you probably would have been taken seriously. Instead, you chose to find some flag to wrap around you, claiming that as long as you are protected by that flag, noone can argue against you. Of course, the problem with that defense is it better be iron clad, or it's going to be broken -- yours was not iron clad.

As someone else stated, your rights within this game begin and end with the option to unsibscribe -- and you are free to exercise that option at any time you wish. As long as you decline to exercise it, you are giving implicit permission for Turbine to act within the boundaries of any laws they fall within the jurisdiction of. This includes doing things that you might object to based on your sense of privacy. Again, nothing wrong with the real request you have -- just don't try claiming rights that you don't really have here.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 09:17 AM

you do not gain the right to dictate the terms of your presence.

Where did I do that? A request to respect privacy is not a dictat.

Your own OP was titled "MyDDO and Privacy Rights". Looks like its you that's backpedaling now.

Hardly. I never claimed I was exercising a legal right to privacy.

Had you made that request without making the claim that your rights are involved here. Instead, you chose to find some flag to wrap around you, claiming that as long as you are protected by that flag, noone can argue against you.

Show me where you think I did that. Here it is again.

MyDDO and Privacy Rights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line: Any feature that allows gf/wife/boss to see what hours you play is not a good thing.

Turbine, please allows users to go anonymous.

I can see how MyDDO is useful, but the people that need to be screened out probably cant find MyDDO to begin with.

As someone else stated, your rights within this game begin and end with the option to unsibscribe

No, they don't. You don't waive your rights when you sign a EULA. You said it yourself: "implicit permission for Turbine to act within the boundaries of any laws they fall within the jurisdiction of"

Impaqt

03-15-2010, 10:25 AM

Where did I do that? A request to respect privacy is not a dictat.

Hardly. I never claimed I was exercising a legal right to privacy.

Show me where you think I did that. Here it is again.

No, they don't. You don't waive your rights when you sign a EULA. You said it yourself: "implicit permission for Turbine to act within the boundaries of any laws they fall within the jurisdiction of"

We're still waiting for yout come up with a law that turbine is violating.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 10:41 AM

We're still waiting for yout come up with a law that turbine is violating.

We're still waiting for you to glean the meaning of inalienable.

And I never said Turbine was violating a law.

C'mon Impact, I read you alot. You're smarter than this.

Cedwin

03-15-2010, 10:47 AM

From the EULA, that you agreed to.

You acknowledge and agree that, as between Turbine and you, all Content, including, without limitation, all screen shots, videos and other materials, and all character names, attributes, inventory items, etc., created, acquired or developed in connection with the Game, are the sole and exclusive property of Turbine and may be used by Turbine (and its publishing partners, distributors, licensors and licensees) for any purpose without any compensation to you.

To the extent permitted by applicable law, you hereby waive any moral rights or rights of publicity or privacy you may have in the Content. Turbine reserves the right at all times to disclose any Content as Turbine deems necessary to satisfy any applicable law, regulation, legal process or governmental request, in Turbine’s sole discretion.

ArichValtrahn

03-15-2010, 10:51 AM

This whole business about rights is just silly.

Requesting the ability to have more granular control over what myddo lists about your characters is a valid suggestion and one we would all benefit from, tin foil hats and conspiracy theories aside.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 10:51 AM

Impaqt

03-15-2010, 10:52 AM

We're still waiting for you to glean the meaning of inalienable.

And I never said Turbine was violating a law.

C'mon Impact, I read you alot. You're smarter than this.

Then define it and provide the example for me within the context of DDO.

What you dont understand is that once you make the decision to play someone game, you agree to play by their rules.

Cedwin

03-15-2010, 10:56 AM

Cedwin, I know that. I've already stated that signing the EULA is like "a private club, and you don't like the rules you can leave"

Did you read the entire EULA? Some interesting print. Esp the part where they can change the agreement without notice.

Yes I've gone over the entire thing, several times, it always comes in handy when people claim they have rights in this game. :) (this isn't the first thread on this subject)

If you already knew that, then why are you assuming that you have the right to complete anonymity on MyDDO?

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 10:59 AM

What you dont understand is that once you make the decision to play someone game, you agree to play by their rules.

No Impact. I've already stated that I understand that it "a private club, and you don't like the rules you can leave".

I don't really see why I should invest any more energy on you when you've demonstrated an inability to comprehend basic english.

What you dont understand is that once you make the decision to play someone game, you agree to play by their rules.

What you don't understand is that their rules do not trump your civil rights, even if you sign them away. For instance, if Turbine's EULA was in violation of the BoR, it would not be legal.

Cedwin

03-15-2010, 11:03 AM

What you don't understand is that their rules do not trump your civil rights, even if you sign them away. For instance, if Turbine's EULA was in violation of the BoR, it would not be legal.

Your civil rights? What's the difference from showing when you played a virtual character, versus showing when you posted on the forums? There is no personal information being displayed here, only game related information.

Impaqt

03-15-2010, 11:05 AM

No Impact. I've already stated that I understand that it "a private club, and you don't like the rules you can leave".

I don't really see why I should invest any more energy on you when you've demonstrated an inability to comprehend basic english.

I can understand english just fine. You have failed at explaining your side.

What you don't understand is that their rules do not trump your civil rights, even if you sign them away. For instance, if Turbine's EULA was in violation of the BoR, it would not be legal.

What you are missing is the fact that they are NOT being violated because everything you do in Ebberon is NOT you. Go ahead, contact a Lawyer and tell them you want to file a class action suit againt turbine for publishing THEIR characters on myddo. See how far you get.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 11:10 AM

This whole business about rights is just silly.

For me atm, its not silly its dangerous.

Check my other thread. I tried to be subtle, but the trolls here have no common sense.

I'm trying to get a response from devs to confrim that a certain person cant use MyDDO to pattern out what times I play, because it makes me an easy target.

If my toons are checked as anon and I'm the only person that can see what times I'm online, then I've got no problem with MyDDO.

If not, then I'll prob have to quit playing.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 11:13 AM

I can understand english just fine. You have failed at explaining your side.

No Impaqt, I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate you understand the diff between legal rights and inalienable ones. We cant advance the discussion further until you do.

What you are missing is the fact that they are NOT being violated -

What you are missing is the fact that I never claimed they were being violated.

You should get some coffee or something. You're off.

Cedwin

03-15-2010, 11:17 AM

I'm trying to get a response from devs to confrim that a certain person cant use MyDDO to pattern out what times I play, because it makes me an easy target.

Someone could just as easily use the forum to pattern out what times you post... I don't understand where you are coming from with that.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 11:20 AM

Your civil rights? What's the difference from showing when you played a virtual character, versus showing when you posted on the forums? There is no personal information being displayed here, only game related information.

I'm not talking about that. I'm responding to people who claim you have "no rights" when you sign a EULA. A EULA cannot trump the Constitution.

Someone could just as easily use the forum to pattern out what times you post... I don't understand where you are coming from with that

1) I can post from anywhere, I can only play at home.

2) Because of speakers and headphones, there's a huge drop in situational awareness when playing, as opposed to posting. Right now, if someone was busting in my back door, I could hear them easily. In game, not so much.

Missing_Minds

03-15-2010, 11:21 AM

Fenrisulven6, how much back pedling and round about talking do you feel like doing?

When you are given a response within the realm of reason, you throw out a counter that is 5 Sundays away from left field. I can only come to the conclusion based on your cometary within this thread that you are very paranoid about who may be watching you, and you yourself are very scared of what you are doing.

As of such, it is near impossible to have a reasonable discussion of the matter. My suggestion for the rest of us, let the thread end.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 11:29 AM

blah blah false assertion blah blah unsupported accusation blah blah troll troll blah

Please dont have yet another meltdown. Just go away.

Impaqt

03-15-2010, 11:31 AM

No Impaqt, I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate you understand the diff between legal rights and inalienable ones. We cant advance the discussion further until you do.

What you are missing is the fact that I never claimed they were being violated.

You should get some coffee or something. You're off.

How can I demonstrate my understanding when I dont understand what your vision of these inalienable right are? Youkeep saying we are all wrong, but have failed to provide even a clue as to your understanding of these "Rights". The failure here isnt on our end. we simply want more informationf rom you and you cannot provide it for some reason.

Fenrisulven6

03-15-2010, 11:42 AM

How can I demonstrate my understanding when I dont understand what your vision of these inalienable right are?

You could look it up, but you're too lazy. And admit it, the only reason you're in my thread is to troll. So here:

inalienable: not transferable to another or capable of being repudiated, incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred

Although based on your record here, I'm betting your eyes glazed over at the first 4-syllable word.

So lets simplify it for you: Impaqt, if the Bill of Rights did not exist, would you still have the right of self-defense?

ehcsztein

03-15-2010, 11:49 AM

So I can understand...

There is a potential threat to your person or property that would be acted upon in accordance with the timing of your online patterns in DDO.

Interesting. You have cooler enemies than I do. :(

Impaqt

03-15-2010, 12:28 PM

You could look it up, but you're too lazy. And admit it, the only reason you're in my thread is to troll. So here:

Although based on your record here, I'm betting your eyes glazed over at the first 4-syllable word.

So lets simplify it for you: Impaqt, if the Bill of Rights did not exist, would you still have the right of self-defense?

So you think Turbines publishing of their own Intellectual material on a Website is akin to someone walking over to you and punching you in the nose?