Yet another Rogue tempest build - AC newbie question

[Retssel]

Hi all, i'm pretty new to the game, currently playing a level 12 rogue (28 points finesse build, mechanic -_-) . At this level i'm starting to find my character lacking in melee, so i started planning all the good things i'll get once i hit level 20 and true reincarnate :) .

Ok, these are my requisites:
1. Halfling
2. Must be able to handle any trap even in end content (well, at least the 99% ish of them)
3. Melee oriented (i don't need a great dps god of war, but i want to contribute to the fight, and don't like to range)

Pretty much in that order.

I have no clue on what I'll find at the end content, so any comments are really wellcome :)

This is my attempt (used a 32 build for this, so true reincarnation should be a bit better):


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Duh the halfling
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Male
(1 Monk \ 12 Rogue \ 7 Ranger)
Hit Points: 228
Spell Points: 88
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 22
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 13 20
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 14 16
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 6
Bluff 0 3
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 0 1
Disable Device 6 33
Haggle 0 1
Heal 2 8
Hide 7 30
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 5 30
Listen 6 28
Move Silently 7 30
Open Lock 7 35
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 7
Search 6 31
Spot 6 30
Swim 1 7
Tumble 7 15
Use Magic Device 4 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 4 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Acid Trap Lore I


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic II




EDIT: adding here the feat list will be more conveniento to read :)
Dodge
FE - Undead
Mobility
Spring attack
Quick Draw
Toughness (Monk Bonus)
FE - Evil Outsider
Greater twf
Improved evasion (rogue special)
Two weapon defense



May add better tomes later if i can find them.
So, my questions:

1. ------------------------------

I have no clue on the AC breakdown of this char, or the high level gear i can use to boost AC. Will the AC be enough to bother (buying some feats, getting high level gear) or should I just don't bother?
So far i have this figured out:
10 base
8 dex 26 w/ item
6 wis 22 w/ item
1 halfling size
1 dodge feat
1 two weapon defense feat
2 tempest 1
1 air stance +2 dex (monk weapons only)
5 protection item (is that the max protection item?)
8 armor bracers (is that the max?)
4 (icy raiments?)
3 (chattering ring?)
----
50 unbuffed (49 with non monkish weapons)

The problem here is i'm not even sure of the items at end content :)

2. ------------------------------

My second question is the disable device:
33 skill (bonus and base int included)
3 item +6 int
4 skill boost
15 item
6 with +4 tools
----
61 unbuffed (skillboosted, cheap tools)

I'm guessing that is good for high level questing

3. ------------------------------

Level 12/7 rogue/ranger VS 13/6 rogue ranger

The first gives me +1 bab. Self resist enery 20 that last 7 minutes (level 1 ranger spell).
The second gives 1d6 additional sneak and a rogue special ability. Self resist energy 10, 6 minutes.


Please add any comment or suggestion you see fit, and point the biggest flaws you spot.
I know it's not an utterly original build, so you don't need to tell me that :) .

[blitzschlag]

havent looked to close

going 7 ranger instead of 13 rogue yields several disadvantages.
on 13 rogue you gain a 2nd rogue-bonus-feat and more sneak-attack and more enhancements.
lvl 7 ranger brings not much to the table.

thats why the common tempest rogue class split is 13/6/1

[rimble]

What I'm doing:

Lawful Good Halfling
13 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 1 Monk (Tempest I / Acrobat II)

Str 12
Dex 18 + 5 Levels
Con 14
Int 8 (+2 tome at 7th)
Wis 16
Cha 8


Don't think there's much room for Feat flexibility:
Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
IC: Piercing
GTWF
Toughness


Skill Ranks End Up At:
Diplo 23 (Eh, why not? I'll be pumping up my Cha skills anyways for Intimi and UMD. Can definitely see me moving these skill points elsewhere though.)
DD 23
Intimi 23
Search 23
Spot 22
UMD 23
OL 10 (it's the easiest to pump up high, especially with crazy high Dex)


Levels:
Rogue
Rogue
Monk
6 Ranger
11 Rogue

My AC breakdown (was a long time ago, just copy/pasting it). Kinda broken down into always on/easy stuff, temporary/harder stuff, then situational/very difficult stuff:

AC
10 Base
13 Dexterity
7 Wisdom
1 Halfling
1 Monk
8 AC Bracers
1 Alchemical
5 Protection
2 Tempest Shield
1 Dodge
4 Icy Raiment Dodge
----
53

3 Barkskin Pot
2 Shield Wand
1 More Dex
1 More Wis
4 GS Insight AC
----
64

2 Real Barkskin
2 Defensive Stance
2 Showtime
6 Improved Uncanny Dodge
1 Favored Enemy
4 Inspire Heroics
2 Recitation
5 Max Pally Aura
3 Chattering Ring
----
91



20 point Resist Energy potions can be bought, that's not a good build goal. You can UMD 30 point Resist Energy wands too. Go for the 13 Rogue and a second Rogue Feat.

[ArichValtrahn]

If you want to contribute to combat, you should consider dropping the mechanic line and taking one of the others. Without mechanic you can still handle 95% of the traps in the game and the ones you cant no one will expect to be able to get them in the first place.

Id also reconsider spending enhancement points on trap skills, fire trap lore, etc and put them into combat related stuff.

[gavagai]

In your build I would definitely trade Quick Draw for Toughness. Esp. if you plan on sitting in Wind Stance (-2 CON) while getting attacked, more HPs will be crucial.

You seem uncertain about whether you want to commit to pushing reliable AC.

If I were pushing a high AC multiclass, I would drop TWD for Combat Expertise. +1 AC is not as good as +5 AC, esp since you aren't building to have power attack on all the time.

Also, I would also put level ups in DEX. While that's often great to have STR for a solo build (since you don't sneak attack as often and need the extra damage), if you plan on partying you may consider increasing DEX and fitting in Weapon Finesse. That will give 2-3 more ac, and your sneak attacks will be adding the hurt.

Keep in mind that you should be able to avoid getting aggro with Subtle Backstabbing and a little strategic thinking. Which means a high AC build isn't entirely necessary when you coordinate your attacks with the group. If you decide the AC grind isn't for you, simply stick to STR focused, drop TWD, and have fun :D

P.S.: I also agree on 13 rogue. You can get resist 20s in pots; but you can't get crippling strike/imp. evasion anywhere else

[Retssel]

Thank you very much for the input.

When i did that build i was looking for a trap master, then try to fit as much fight as I can :) .

I get that 13/6/1 is the better split for a mostly rogue build.

@blitzschlag: seems that everyone agrees in that point.
@rimble: Thanks for the AC summary :)
@ArichValtrahn: I got all those enhancements as a prerequisite for mechanic, if i rule mechanic out i'll not pick some of them
@gavagai: I actually took toughness as the monk bonus feat. That's a good point, a dex build if I aim to max AC and str based if I don't mind AC.

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I have been playing around with the char generator. Lowering int and taking acrobat I made these str and a dex builds:
(Added a +3 tome to make the strength build even)

STRENGTH

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Steve the halfling
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Male
(1 Monk \ 13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 236
Spell Points: 90
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 23
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 22
Dexterity 16 22
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 14 16
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 12
Bluff 0 2
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 0 21
Disable Device 5 27
Haggle 0 1
Heal 2 3
Hide 5 23
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 6 27
Listen 4 18
Move Silently 7 28
Open Lock 7 26
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 26
Spot 6 23
Swim 2 6
Tumble 7 24
Use Magic Device 4 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Defense
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I


Level 10 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III




DEXTERITY

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Doh the halfling
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Male
(1 Monk \ 13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 70
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 26
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 14
Dexterity 17 28
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 14 16
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 3 15
Bluff 0 2
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 2 22
Disable Device 5 28
Haggle 0 1
Heal 2 3
Hide 5 24
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 5 25
Listen 5 14
Move Silently 6 30
Open Lock 7 31
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 26
Spot 5 26
Swim 1 2
Tumble 5 25
Use Magic Device 4 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 7 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 10 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles




Both builds have these feats:

Dodge
FE - Undead
Mobility
Finesse / Two weapon defense
FE - Evil Outsider
Spring attack
Combat Expertise
Toughness (Monk Bonus)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Whirlwind?)
Improved evasion (rogue special)
Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Crippling strike (rogue special)

Str build with TWD to make up for some of the reduced AC.
Dex build with Finesse.
(added combat expertise as recomended, still not sure on the IC:Piercing choice)

AC for str based:

10 base + 9 dex + 6 wis + 1 halfling + 1 monk + 1 dodge feat + 1 TWD + 2 tempest + 1 air stance + 5 combat expertise + 5 prot item + 8 armor bracers + 1 alchemical +4 icy raiments + 3 chat ring + 4 greensteel
----
62 unbuffed
61 with non monkish weapons
54 with no "ubber" gear
Here I'm guessing that +5 prot + 8 armor, alchemical and GS are "hard to find but not impossible" but icy and chat ring are "very, very hard to get" - I don't know that for sure.

Self buffs:

3 Barkskin Pot + 2 Shield Wand + 2 Showtime + 6 Improved Uncanny Dodge
----
75
74 no monk weapons
67 with non top gear
(for 30 seconds of fun :) )


AC for dex based:
+12 dex bonus instead of +9 but no TWD makes him 2 points better in AC


Str vs Dex:

Str: +9 to hit +9 damage. Not restricted to finesse weapons (can use quarterstaff with air stance and acrobat bonus :eek: )
Dex: +12 to hit +5 damage. 2 points better in AC.


On the rogue skills department:

Disable device:
27 skill (enhancements and base int included) + 3 int item + 15 item + 1 luck item + 6 cheap tools + 4 skill boost
= 56 unbuffed (skillboosted, cheap tools)
Not so great i'm afraid (i have been checking this: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Is_my_%28insert_rogue_skill%29_high_enough)

Search:
26 skill (enhancements and base wis included) + 15 item + 3 wis item + 1 luck item + 4 skill boost
= 49
Again, not bad, but not so great

Umd:
24 skill (base cha included) + 3 item + 1 luck item + 4 skill boost
= 32

Should probably put more enhancements in disable and search and maybe pick "Skill focus: UMD".
I'm afraid I lost the trapsmith focus of the build.

After all this I'm even more confused than before ... I probably should roll a plain barbarian instead :o .


Questions:
Does the whirlwind attack work like the cleave/great cleave? If it's the same (just a 360º version) i would not pick it
Would the str based version miss too much in combat? will he even hit with combat expertise on? (assuming no flank bonus applies)

As before, feel free to point any fat flaw you spot, and thank you for your patience :D .