Tempest, trap monkey, twf-fighter, or twf barb?

[worthful]

My main is a cleric, and is 16. Currently I don't have any alt characters, but I'm about to make one.

I don't want to be a mana based character, and I want it to be a pure build (unless I'm really gimping myself by staying pure.) I'm torn between 4 characters:

trapmonkey type rogue...twf build that can take care of traps. If I go 18int 18dex for traps and such, am I going to be useless against undead and thinks that can't be sneak attacked?

The other way I wanted to go was any sort of TWF build. Which TWF build is most effective for DPS? Tempest ranger, fighter, or barbarian? Tempest ranger has the bonus of still being good with a bow and having nice self buffs, but then fighters get tons of free feats...and I don't know a thing about barbs.

Any rough build suggestions? I don't really know how to make any of these twf builds other than the rogue (i would go 10/18/12/18/8/10 as a drow)

Everything else, I need suggestions. Please and thanks?

[cyadra]

For a 2Wf you definitely want to check the ranger forums for a tempest build. Most take 6 levels of ranger and the rest either 14 fighter or 12 fighter and 2 rogue. Take 15 or 16 points of DEX, and prepare to eat a tome to get your Dex to 17. Take the rest of the points and balance out your STR and CON. For max DPS consider human with kopesh feat. Definitely check out the ranger forums, you will see a ton of tempest builds.

[jmonty]

if you are used to a cleric you might prefer a ranger since that class has great dps as well as the various buffs and some self healing, which is great at lower levels and with a splash of wizard and a metamagic feat can potentially be useful at higher levels as well. if you start with a level of rogue you can have a very versatile character.

[Artos_Fabril]

My main is a cleric, and is 16. Currently I don't have any alt characters, but I'm about to make one.

I don't want to be a mana based character, and I want it to be a pure build (unless I'm really gimping myself by staying pure.) I'm torn between 4 characters:

trapmonkey type rogue...twf build that can take care of traps. If I go 18int 18dex for traps and such, am I going to be useless against undead and thinks that can't be sneak attacked?

The other way I wanted to go was any sort of TWF build. Which TWF build is most effective for DPS? Tempest ranger, fighter, or barbarian? Tempest ranger has the bonus of still being good with a bow and having nice self buffs, but then fighters get tons of free feats...and I don't know a thing about barbs.

Any rough build suggestions? I don't really know how to make any of these twf builds other than the rogue (i would go 10/18/12/18/8/10 as a drow)

Everything else, I need suggestions. Please and thanks?
Your rogue build looks like a very squishy assassin. Probably the sort of character you hate when you're playing your cleric (lots of threat, not a lot of HPs), even for a finesse assassin i'd suggest taking a few points out of int to put into con and str. A serious full-out trapmonkey is as a major disadvantage when faced with anything that isn't a trap box, as compared to a more balanced rogue build.

The benefit of going with ranger for your TWF character is that you don't need to plan on a 17dex w/tomes, since rangers get the TWF line regardless of their dex scores. A TWF fighter actually gets more feats, but is locked in to a min 15 dex, to be able to get 17 dex with a +2 tome for ITWF and GTWF.

If you decide to go fighter, you'll be looking at some sort of Kensai. Kopesh if you can afford them, provide the best DPS against mobs with less than 75% fort.

for MC builds, you might look into Exploiter (a tempest build), Krythen (a rogue/tempest DPS build)

[Bacab]

Check out the "Monster" Build also. I am/was in a similar predicament. Pretty much lvl Casters ad really wanna make a melee.

I will say this...If you have never built a Melee toon before...you can not go wrong with a PURE class or a common build.

20 FTR gets Kensai and a really nice Capstone

20 RNG is a blurry swinging machine

20 BARB (2WF) is a high STR massive DPS dude...

18 RNG/1 ROG/1 MNK is known as a "Exploiter" build. Nice DPS, can trapmonkey and has very nice AC/saves/ By far the most versatile build I can recommend

12 FTR/6 RNG/2 MNK "Monster" Build, very nice DPS...mainly Burst damage (great for boss fights)

As far as the low HP assassin...you would hate yourself deep down later. Also INT is way overated for a ROG (for skills/trapmonkeying)

[Timjc86]

A rogue is definitely in the running for a high DPS TWF build... assuming you don't build a trapmonkey. There's no need for 18 intelligence, even on an assassin (12 will suffice, and that's still pretty high.) A strength based rogue dual wielding khopeshes is a scary thing for unfortified monsters.

If you want to build a melee character, you'll want to hit 13 base strength for Power Attack and 12 base constitution for the bare minimum amount of hitpoints to survive in melee (more is recommended, especially if you don't have Improved Evasion.) You want to hit those numbers even on a finesse character or a rogue.

[AdahnX]

you'll want to hit 13 base strength for Power Attack

Why Power Attack? All the research I've done has told me that Rogues don't really have BAB to spare, in fact a lot of sources recommend Precision, which is, as far as I can tell, the exact opposite of Power Attack. Is it just as a prereq for Cleave or is there some other function that it serves that I'm unaware of?

[kanbeki]

+5 hit +5 dmg, i mean if you're really worried about your BaB try to find some divine power clickies this will even it out. Most of th etime when people start missing with power attack they just turn it off

[worthful]

Thanks for all the replies. Currently I'm running around on a pure fighter tank/dps build. I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with it, but I'm not entirely sold. I keep reading that DPS is king of DDO so I am toying with either going for a pure DPS build or an exploiter build possibly.


Anyone else have links to builds with high AC and better than decent dps? I have access to 32 point builds now (didn't when I posted, thats why i was thinking about going drow...) and I'm also p2p (i got owned by their join as f2p then enjoy the game and subscribe tactics) so I can make WF too. Although, since my main is a cleric I'm not sure how I feel about making a WF =P


EDIT:

How do pure tempest rangers do in the DPS category? lets arbitrarily throw out a scale of 1-10.

On a different note - what sort of AC is considered good for trash vs. good for bosses end game? Just ran bastion of power last night for the first time - totally different world than everything else I've seen. Mobs hit harder, traps hit harder (got crit and died from a trap on NORMAL. Never happened before...) etc.

Or perhaps I should just get over my fear of rerolling a toon because I made it poorly.

[Peo]

I find Power Attack easy enough to work with. I PA for 8 on my FvS and with Divine Power I hit often enough. Unless you are WF or Barbarian your PA penalty will be less, and probably sport more str than my FvS too. If missing is a huge concern with your less than optimal BAB, assuming you don't have better replacements, pick up the Anger's Step set from Korthos and the Goggles of Insight for an additional +3 hit bonus to hit to make up most of the offset. Demon Sands also has a glove in it that grants +2 insight to hit as well and of course Bless/(greater)Heroism/Inspire provide moral bonuses as well.

On the question of DPS builds, the simplest is probably pure barbarian. TWF if you wish to deal more to a single target over THFers or THF if you wish to cleave though nonbosses in a wake of unmatched DPS but not be quite as effective against single targets as TWFers. Everything else becomes more and more complex from there and in the case of THF we're already talking about 400+ damage per crit with nothing but rage buffing you.

I can't comment stacking wise, but a Jorgundals Collar (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Necklaces/JorgundalsCollar.jpg) may single handedly replace a dipping into ranger for speed, though not so much for the bonus feats, but then again theres the fighter class for that.

[Eladiun]

Thanks for all the replies. Currently I'm running around on a pure fighter tank/dps build. I'm pretty sure I'm sticking with it, but I'm not entirely sold. I keep reading that DPS is king of DDO so I am toying with either going for a pure DPS build or an exploiter build possibly.


Go with the exploiter... I'm running a new modified Exploiter (13 now) and am very pleased with it.

[grodon9999]

How do pure tempest rangers do in the DPS category? lets arbitrarily throw out a scale of 1-10.

If you are going melee, there is very little reason to go Ranger 20. The advantages of splashing far outweigh any advantages of staying pure.

Ranger18/rogue1/monk1 is awesome. If a "10" is a coked-up Frenzied berserker with 60+ STR and an Epic Sword of Shadows, the "Exploiter" is a "7."

Regarding what the OP asked in a trap monkey, with one level of rogue and some goggle switching my Exploiter can hit the traps in Sins of Attrition on Elite. You don't need to go "full ******" when going rogue, not even in epic since the recent nerf.

[Eladiun]

If you are going melee, there is very little reason to go Ranger 20. The advantages of splashing far outweigh any advantages of staying pure.


Very true, there is no Tempest Capstone so going pure really buys you very little. Plus I found my self short a couple of feats so splashing Fighter or Monk will net you a couple extra feats too.

[grodon9999]

Very true, there is no Tempest Capstone so going pure really buys you very little. Plus I found my self short a couple of feats so splashing Fighter or Monk will net you a couple extra feats too.

There are a few advantages to 20 ranger that are worth pointing out though in all fairness

1. FE damage is 14 and not 12
2. 5th Favored Enemy
3. Full BAB (allegedly affects swing speed).
4. If you use a bow at all the Capstone is nice, not needed but nice.

If you're getting aggro (no Sneak Attack damage) the pure ranger will have slightly higher DPS.

[worthful]

What would be considered a "good enough" score for DPS? also...should I take into consideration THF? I keep reading good reviews on it...but TWF seems more awesome intrinsically

any comments on the ac question?

[Eladiun]

There are a few advantages to 20 ranger that are worth pointing out though in all fairness

1. FE damage is 14 and not 12
2. 5th Favored Enemy
3. Full BAB (allegedly affects swing speed).
4. If you use a bow at all the Capstone is nice, not needed but nice.

If you're getting aggro (no Sneak Attack damage) the pure ranger will have slightly higher DPS.

All true but Monk1/Fighter1 gets me, +1 AC, Wisdom bonus to AC, 3 Feats, Fighter Toughness 1 and a few other goodies that outweigh for me at least what I lose but it's all personal choice. If your an AA build stay pure for the capstone definitely; as a Tempest I find that I seldomly pull my bow though so it's not enough to make it a deciding factor.

[grodon9999]

any comments on the ac question?

My exploiter is 2 months old, I have a self-buffed AC of 65 while TWF with Combat expertise on. This is still useful in Amrath on elite, not un-hittable but I get missed a lot. Honestly I got LUCKY in a lot of gear drops (chattering ring on 3rd Titan, Icy's on second run . . .). I can post a breakdown if you want but it's almost identical to what's in the "Exploiter" thread.

The THF/TWF thing is very debatable. I don't have a THF above level 7 so I cannot give an informed opinion of THF versus TWF. I can tell you that THF is CHEAPER to run as you only need 1 weapon for each role as opposed to pairs. TWF is superior for vorpalling and stat damage. Each have their advantages.

[grodon9999]

All true but Monk1/Fighter1 gets me, +1 AC, Wisdom bonus to AC, 3 Feats, Fighter Toughness 1 and a few other goodies that outweigh for me at least what I lose but it's all personal choice. If your an AA build stay pure for the capstone definitely; as a Tempest I find that I seldomly pull my bow though so it's not enough to make it a deciding factor.

You only get that "+1 AC" with 2 levels of monk and while centered. That listing in the original Exploiter thread is wrong.

Regarding bows, you just need some better bows! My first Ranger was an AA so I got quite the arsenal. Stat-damagers rule against trash. Beholders for example have only 8-12 STR, 2-3 manyshot blasts and they're unable to cast and eat auto-crits.

[Eladiun]

You only get that "+1 AC" with 2 levels of monk and while centered. That listing in the original Exploiter thread is wrong.

Regarding bows, you just need some better bows! My first Ranger was an AA so I got quite the arsenal. Stat-damagers rule against trash. Beholders for example have only 8-12 STR, 2-3 manyshot blasts and they're unable to cast and eat auto-crits.

I have quite the arsenal of rapiers...and ranged combat is just to buggy and annoying.

[grodon9999]

I have quite the arsenal of rapiers...


UGGHH, I can't find decent stat-damaging rapiers that cost less than a real human kidney.

[Eladiun]

UGGHH, I can't find decent stat-damaging rapiers that cost less than a real human kidney.

I banked them for over 2 years...

[worthful]

How do the monster / the cannon fodder builds rank up to the exploiter?

[Eladiun]

How do the monster / the cannon fodder builds rank up to the exploiter?

Your focusing way too much on builds... It's not the build it's the player. (and the equipment to some degree). You said Tempest, Trap Monkey, TWF...with the exploiter build you can do all of it. Your moving deeper into Opinionland where people will start righteously and vigorously advocating one build over another to the benefit of no one. There is no master build. Find a job you like...try a few builds and then run with it. You aren't locked into one style. I'm a registered altaholic so I switch around to stay fresh. Here is what I can tell you about my ranger... I'm survivable, I can self heal, I can emergency heal, I can throw good buffs, I can kill a lot... We all know kill count is fairly meaning less (but there isn't much else to use as a DPS barometer) at 9-12 on TS I usually lead in kills (sometimes by a lot so much so that I'm shocked when looking at what some of the other fighter types are getting). This may slacken as I approach higher levels but right now I have DPS, AC, Evasion (can run the trap room on Crucible and make the swim), healing, and I'm having fun with it.

[grodon9999]

I banked them for over 2 years...

By any chance, do you need a kidney?

[grodon9999]

How do the monster / the cannon fodder builds rank up to the exploiter?

It depends on what you're doing, I wouldn't trust the monster build to take care of traps :)

Cannon Fodder = better defense. Monster = better offense (on paper, I'm building one now to see). Exploiter = versatile as hell.

What's nice about build that can do multiple things is it makes grouping muck easier. When levelling up my exploiter we never had to wait for a rogue because he could handle traps/locks for everything. In levelling up my monster I'm running mostly with a guildie who though has 2 rogue levels for evasion has the rest fighter so his skills suck, we often have to wait if we're doing hard/elite for the right group. With the Exploiter it was take the first 5 other guys and roll.

18 ranger levels also gives you a bunch of spell points for buffs and some healing when in a pinch. In a Stealer of Souls our cleric fell off during the Cloud giant part, I kept the party alive until he came back.

At the same time the jack of all trades is master of none. My AC isn't enough for epic, my DPS is good but not ubber. Even with his AC he's a borderline glass-cannon with 400 un-buffed HP (will be 495 after getting my GS finished and a TR). On a recent ToD our Horoth tank died and I had to jump in at the last second to "hate tank" while everything got back together. I BARELY had the hit-point "well" to do it, and this was on normal.

I'm currently building my monster for one thing and one thing only: to beat the ever-loving **** out of raid-bosses and survive when they hit back. I picked dwarf because I just don't want to play a WF and D-axe is a great weapon against fortified targets (most raid bosses have 50% fort). The Toughness enhancements will allow for a large HP pool for when he gets hit. I won't be as solo-friendly, self-healing will be wands, I'll need a rogue for traps, etc . . . but hopefully the one thing I want him to do he'll do very well.

[Eladiun]

By any chance, do you need a kidney?

No, but I did find a +2 Paralyzer of Enfeebling on the broker the other day for 95k...I did a happy dance.

[grodon9999]

No, but I did find a +2 Paralyzer of Enfeebling on the broker the other day for 95k...I did a happy dance.

Got a +4 Metaline/PG Scmitar on the AH for 99k GP, I love it when people leave off a zero or two :)

[ArichValtrahn]

18 RNG/1 ROG/1 MNK is known as a "Exploiter" build. Nice DPS, can trapmonkey and has very nice AC/saves/ By far the most versatile build I can recommend

This is my recommendation. Great build. I have one, does a great job with traps.

[worthful]

Alright we'll I've started my exploiter - we'll see how it goes...thanks again for all the feedback.

[grodon9999]

Alright we'll I've started my exploiter - we'll see how it goes...thanks again for all the feedback.

Cool, what server?

[worthful]

Argonessen...where all my toons live so far.


Started running around on this guy already, and so far its pretty fun to be good at both melee and ranged, being able to sneak and do traps, etc etc...I'm assuming it only gets better.