Implement a variation of the Shadow Blade feat from Bo9S

[Calebro]

With the influx of new players, and the many threads we've seen lately regarding Weapon Finesse and it's use (or lack thereof) I think it's time to bring in this feat.

In the original text:
SHADOW BLADE
In the course of your training in the Shadow Hand discipline, you learn to use your natural agility and speed to augment your attacks with certain weapons.
Prerequisite: One Shadow Hand stance.
Benefit: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and attack with one of the discipline’s preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.
Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons.

could be slightly altered to something along these lines:
SHADOW BLADE
In the course of your training with the proper use of light weapons, you learn to use your natural agility and speed to augment your attacks with certain weapons.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: While you attack with any weapon that would benefit from Weapon Finesse you can add your Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher) as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.


This would once again make high Dex characters viable late in the game. It would also make it easier to retain a high AC's character's usefulness later in the game. This would make a bunch of characters from earlier MODs playable again. This would also be a simple solution to all the ideas we've seen regarding changing Weapon Finesse, or making it a default feat, etcetera.

Rather than change something that is working exactly as intended, working exactly as it should be, we should include a slight variation of a rule that already existed to augment this style.

[gavagai]

could be slightly altered to something along these lines:
SHADOW BLADE
In the course of your training with the proper use of light weapons, you learn to use your natural agility and speed to augment your attacks with certain weapons.
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse
Benefit: While you attack with any weapon that would benefit from Weapon Finesse you can add your Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher) as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.


My gut reaction was to say, "whoa, OP!" and "Uh-Oh, more min-max!" But giving it some thought, I think it could be nice. The only difference between this idea and my desire to see Insightful Strike implemented is that the latter, while stacking with STR, is precision-based damage and would go on a less utilized ability (INT).

The core issue is prerequisites. This is quite powerful and should come late in character development, like GTWF. I think Weapon Finesse is too light an investment. A Dex requirement wouldn't do anything, since any character taking this would have high Dex.

Suggested Prerequisites:
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
BAB 11

3 feats to effectively have Dex for to-hit and damage by level 11 (15 if Rogue/Monk) seems decent.

But it might be a little OP for Dex monks, who have the feats to spare, rapid attacks, and potentially huge Dex in Wind Stance. 40+ Dex, high AC, 1,000,000 attacks a round.... hrm...

Perhaps if this were a stance that was exclusive with Power Attack/Combat Expertise?

[Calebro]

My gut reaction was to say, "whoa, OP!" and "Uh-Oh, more min-max!" But giving it some thought, I think it could be nice. The only difference between this idea and my desire to see Insightful Strike implemented is that the latter, while stacking with STR, is precision-based damage and would go on a less utilized ability (INT).

The core issue is prerequisites. This is quite powerful and should come late in character development, like GTWF. I think Weapon Finesse is too light an investment. A Dex requirement wouldn't do anything, since any character taking this would have high Dex.

Suggested Prerequisites:
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
BAB 11

3 feats to effectively have Dex for to-hit and damage by level 11 (15 if Rogue/Monk) seems decent.

But it might be a little OP for Dex monks, who have the feats to spare, rapid attacks, and potentially huge Dex in Wind Stance. 40+ Dex, high AC, 1,000,000 attacks a round.... hrm...

Perhaps if this were a stance that was exclusive with Power Attack/Combat Expertise?

By the prerequisites of the original feat, you could take this at any time after 1st level. The requirements are minimal. By making Weapon Finesse a required feat, I've effectively made this more difficult to obtain than was originally intended. By following the PnP version, you could have Dex to hit and damage by level 3.
Your previous thread (where this was idea came from) asked that we change Weapon Finesse to allow non-finessable weapons to be used, but somehow my idea to implement a feat already in existence is more broken than changing core rules?

Regarding Insightful Strike vs Shadow Blade: As written, Shadow Blade stacks with Str bonus, but my version doesn't, so it's not as broken as it appears.

The reason that Weapon Finesse becomes useless at later levels is because the damage output from the style simply isn't enough to keep up.

In PnP this feat exists, but in DDO (where damage output is MUCH more important than in PnP) it doesn't exist. That's completely backwards to me.

The bottom line is that I think implementing this feat would solve most of the problems that Dex based characters face, and it would do it without changing any existing rules or breaking any existing builds.

I see no reason not to implement it. I see many reasons that it's needed.

[RATRACE931]

To be honest, I think this feat would be the end of any STR build not a Barb, As it would make Halfling Rangers&Monks the highest AC and DPS in the game.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

By the prerequisites of the original feat, you could take this at any time after 1st level. The requirements are minimal.

The original feat also only works with a limited subset of weapons, and only while in a Shadow Hand stance.

[Calebro]

The original feat also only works with a limited subset of weapons, and only while in a Shadow Hand stance.

True, which is why I made no comment on that portion of his post. Making it a stance, while not in line with the original feat, is a viable alternative.

[Calebro]

To be honest, I think this feat would be the end of any STR build not a Barb, As it would make Halfling Rangers&Monks the highest AC and DPS in the game.

Not exactly true. With the multiple stackable Strength boosting spells/items/effects, any Str based character can get a higher Str than a Dex based character can get of Dex.
The maximum buffed Str will always be higher than the maximum buffed Dex, so Str based characters will always out-DPS a similarly built Dex based character.
But with this, it won't be as glaringly and obviously different.

[Angelus_dead]

There are serious implications to that suggestion, and it is probably too late for something so drastic. Nonetheless there would be real benefits to pursuing it.

Note that the developers could moderate the effect by making it more of a hybrid: Instead of replacing strength with dexterity for damage purposes, you'd instead use the average of your str and dex mods. That way dex builds get a large benefit from the feature, but they still can't use it as permission to give up on having any strength.


Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons.
At a minimum, the ability should only work with actual Shadow Hand weapons, not with superior ones like Rapier, Light Pick, and Kukri. (However, that restriction would also make it important to enable greensteel rebuilds, so people with rapiers can swap them to shortswords).

Anyway, I suggested adding Shadow Blade over a year ago, but as part of a package of several other Tome of Battle feats. In that version, the Shadow Blade effect was exclusive with other TOB feats, so that counted as an additional penalty. You can read whole suggestion (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170409), but I'll repeat the Shadow Blade part here:

Martial Study- Shadow Blade
req BAB 13, Hide 1 rank
Passive: +1 Hide
Stance:
Assassin's Stance- You have 2d4 Sneak Attack. If you use a shortsword, dagger, or unarmed strike you may add half your dexterity modifier to damage, but reduce your strength damage bonus by half.
Strike:
Fool's Strike- Add your Hide ranks to the damage. The victim's next melee or thrown attack is aimed at his nearest ally (Will DC 10+BAB/2+wis negates).

[Calebro]

At a minimum, the ability should only work with actual Shadow Hand weapons, not with superior ones like Rapier, Light Pick, and Kukri. (However, that restriction would also make it important to enable greensteel rebuilds, so people with rapiers can swap them to shortswords).

What weapons it would work on is a bit of an afterthought to me. If it were implemented to only be usable with dagger, ss, and unarmed strike (as it would be as originally written) that would be fine.

The fact of the matter is that there are extremely few viable Dex based builds come late in the game, and anything along these basic lines would help immensely.

[RATRACE931]

Not exactly true. With the multiple stackable Strength boosting spells/items/effects, any Str based character can get a higher Str than a Dex based character can get of Dex.
The maximum buffed Str will always be higher than the maximum buffed Dex, so Str based characters will always out-DPS a similarly built Dex based character.
But with this, it won't be as glaringly and obviously different.

Outside of Barbs, STR as high as Dex would become unreasonable, sure rage pot, madstone, Kensai boost and/or titan gloves can net you higher STR than Dex, but getting to say... a 44 STR unbuffed itsnt overly hard an epic STR item a +3 tome and tod ring and ur square, but dex is equally attainable and would serve a duel purpose DPS and AC.

(Human Fighter)STR: Base23+3 TOME+10Item+3 fighter+1human+4Stance=44

(Halfling Ranger)DEX: Base 25+3Tome+9item+3Ranger+2Halfling= 42

You can see that DEX is slightly more easily attainable (No Epic +7 DEX/STR item) And why you can't boost you dex from outside sources, aside from Yug pots, like you can STR, madstone, rage ect., it does however serve the duel purpose of a massive increase to AC where STR only boost... swimspeed/jump. I'm not implying that you would do more DPS as a dex build, but I think it would be widely popular to lose 1-4 damage per swing for a more than respectable amount of AC.