Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

[noinfo]

Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

I am going to break this wall of text up into parts so if you are going to reply, please wait till last post.


This post is directly related to tanking builds, ac at higher levels and variation within different modes, casual, normal, hard, elite and epic.

First this is not a request to nerf Barberians, they are the premier sustained dps build.

It is a look at why Barberians are often the choice for tanking elite bosses.

[noinfo]

On normal it is common place for an ac tank (PJ or Fullplated) to deal with most bosses (yeah barberians etc can do it as well) Usually because the resources used are far less than the constant healing of the barberian.

Against Normal Bosses

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Pretty good HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Usually Lower HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

On Elite this tends to change with increasing difficulty level as benefits from ac get significantly reduced and damage mitigation far less. It becomes more

viable and prefered in some instances to have the barberian in there, because:


AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far more often
3. Pretty good HP but as being hit more often smaller buffer
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Probably being hit as much as the S/B with variation
3. Usually Lower HP makes it a bit tighter to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

As can be seen it is more viable for the barberian to be tanking against elite bosses (Not claiming other cannot). This really should be the opposite way

around in my opinion and since the design of 2 of the PRE are around specific Tanking Builds it is contrary to the intent of the game (IMO).

The harder more trained mobs/bosses should have a much harder time against a trained tank, they don't, this is due to the nature of scaling in the game.

Elite Mobes have: Higher to hit bonuses (by a lot), Hit harder, Have more hp, Have more Ac but Do NOT have a chance to burst more damage (crit).

Current solution is obvious (ask Shade) Hit them with more dps kill them faster etc etc.

[noinfo]

My proposed solution is to work around in those 4 areas to provide a more ballanced scaling to provide

1. More ballanced to hit vs ac
2. More effective tanks
3. Difference between Hi ac S/B vs Hi ac 2 weapon fighters
4. A reason for people to pick up a shield on the odd occasion, have it matter

The solution I believe revolves around Criticals and Fortification.

After (normally) level 11 it is simply no longer an issue on normal through to elite and epic. This mechanic results in mobs needing to do higher base damage and often overly inflated to hit bonuses.

By reintroducing the possiblity of criticals both the massive boost in base damage and to hit bonuses could be reduced (the to hit bonuses could also include bonuses to confirm)

This can be further expanded on by having it scale based on the difficulty and type of armour/shield being worn. More people using a shield means less dps which means that mob hp has a possiblity of being scaled down some.

[noinfo]

In theory how this may work in elite

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Pretty good HP acts as a good buffer
4. Fewer variation in damage as fewer crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Usually Lower HP but usually ok except for 4
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblitiy due to no armour and no shield

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with and normal damage has been reduced so may find normal hits nothing much to worry about
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblity due to no shield (may be wearing actual armour instead of robes etc for a change)
*** For barberians etc the overall damage should be similar but the possiblity of getting 2 heavy boss crits in a row should mean the actual tanks with the better fortification would be more desirable.

[noinfo]

Standard fortification item bonuses

+25% for Heavy armour types (based on WF natural bonus)
+15% for Medium armour types
+10% for Light armour types

(initial thoughts only)

+25% for shield of any type (you get reduced dps anyway) +10% shield blocking and with each level of sheild mastery a bonus +5%


A basic S/B would have 150% fortification base to be modified by difficulty level

Casual -0%
Normal -10%
Hard -25%
Elite -50%
Epic -75%

With corresponding bonues to confirm.

On elite a S/B with the same ac as the PJ 2wf will get hit the same amount of time, but will not be crittable when hit, this makes S/B tanking the more stable alternative.


Thoughts?

[Lauraliane]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

[noinfo]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

Unfortunately most of that stuff will be dps it fast and move on. More traps mean need a raging barb to get through it or res on the other side.

More intelligent AI in most games is really a nice dream and would be good but not likely to happen.

Not saying my suggestion would not need a lot of play testing and ballancing but would give those PRE the purpose they were DESIGNED for.

[toughguyjoe]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

[noinfo]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

What I am saying and not Barberians specifically (see post) is criticals being an option again. This must be ballanced by a reasonable drop in base damage to make the overall damage comparable. It is not a Barberians to be beaten into the dirt idea but to make the possiblity of not S/B heavy armour users less predictable in the damage they will take in consecutive hits.

[epochofcrepuscule]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

I am going to go with your assessment... it still looked like a wall of text... just with borders.

If barbs became crittable, that large HP buffer as you cal it, would be meaningless. Do you even know how much damage elite raid bosses crit for?

[noinfo]

I am going to go with your assessment... it still looked like a wall of text... just with borders.

If barbs became crittable, that large HP buffer as you cal it, would be meaningless. Do you even know how much damage elite raid bosses crit for?

Please go with your gut on this one. If you can't read the whole thing, please move on.

[platonicx]

When i first saw fortification items i was like hey thats overpowered. And i still think so. Any pnp base for this bonus?The idea of shields and hevier armors giving fortification makes much more sense. I mean my rogue can tank naked. ***.

[Aaxeyu]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

[toughguyjoe]

What I am saying and not Barberians specifically (see post) is criticals being an option again. This must be ballanced by a reasonable drop in base damage to make the overall damage comparable. It is not a Barberians to be beaten into the dirt idea but to make the possiblity of not S/B heavy armour users less predictable in the damage they will take in consecutive hits.

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

[Aaxeyu]

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

Also because there is no real need for damage mitigation in DDO. No one can be critted, and monsters doesn't deal enough damage per attack.

[noinfo]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

The goal isn't to punish barberians or low ac builds but to bring back variation in damage and give the role of tank back to those who have PRE especially for it.

[noinfo]

Also because there is no real need for damage mitigation in DDO. No one can be critted, ....

Exactly

[noinfo]

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

Actually while the current trend (and it has been around for a while now) is Raid boss holder that has become the case as a result of the reasons in the above post. No one gets critted. Now no one likes to get critted either however its that additional unpredicatablity that adds something beyond the I can take x number of hits mentality, or the I can only get hit on a 20 mentality.

While the original PnP does not specifically have tanking due to different dynamics in these situations it would be the S/B Fighter or Pally at the front.

There are 2 PRE specifically designed to tank, that is there purpose, however given the current implementation of no crits for anyone they are often overlooked for brute force mentality.

[eonfreon]

So, if I understand your suggestion, these armor and shield bonuses would apply + fort items - level of difficulty = applicable fortification?

I really see no problem with this. Since it doesn't really favor one class over another, just adds benefits to certain fighting styles, as far as I can see.
After all, even Barbs and TWf can use a shield when they need to do the traditional tanking method. Just like against the Hound, since dps is useless against her until the little dogs are charmed and have hurt her enough, even a Barbarian pulls out a shield and shieldblocks.
I kind of lke this idea, even though it would hurt my twf DT Vestment(PJ's I guess) wearing Pally/Monk on elite (lower his fort from 100-50= 50).

[Xionanx]

:eek::confused:

I wish I had been one the lead developers for DDO when it was first in developement all those years ago, I would explained vehemently that thier proposed AP enhancement system would overpower the game and completely ruin balance across the entire game. I would then explain the need to be more strict in the creation of certain "magic items" that inexplicably stack:rolleyes:

Monsters have insane To Hit rolls because players have/had insane AC's
Monsters have insane HP's because players can do/did insane damage
Monsters do insane damage because players have/had insane HP's
Trap DC's are crazy high because players have high DD skills
etc etc etc...

If you take away the key component that makes player characters so overpowered, then you bring the game back down into a more easily manageable "tweaking" zone. As it is now, the only real option the devs have at thier disposal to make quests "harder" is to:

A) Make enemies have Higher AC's, HP's, and do more damage
B) Increase enemy numbers so they can "Swarm" the PC's
C) Implement various immunities and DR on the enemies
D) Swing the nerf bat like mad and **** off a lot of players

I'd go with option D and start nerfing, sometimes you got iodine on a childs thumb to stop the sucking.. sometimes you gotta break some toys so everyone plays fair.

[aurum1]

No need to fiddle with heavy fort, eventhough it would make sense that fortification comes from a tower shield and full plate not a helm every caster can wear.

A similiar solution to what you are looking for is to just add a haste boost to boss mobs that scales with difficulty. If on elite Harry and Sally have marilath style melee attacks/round then AC and HP buffer are both viable options in their own right, with AC in the lead.

[noinfo]

So, if I understand your suggestion, these armor and shield bonuses would apply + fort items - level of difficulty = applicable fortification?

I really see no problem with this. Since it doesn't really favor one class over another, just adds benefits to certain fighting styles, as far as I can see.
After all, even Barbs and TWf can use a shield when they need to do the traditional tanking method. Just like against the Hound, since dps is useless against her until the little dogs are charmed and have hurt her enough, even a Barbarian pulls out a shield and shieldblocks.
I kind of lke this idea, even though it would hurt my twf DT Vestment(PJ's I guess) wearing Pally/Monk on elite (lower his fort from 100-50= 50).

That is exactly my suggestion and believe me it would hurt my twf icy wearers just as bad.

[noinfo]

No need to fiddle with heavy fort, eventhough it would make sense that fortification comes from a tower shield and full plate not a helm every caster can wear.

A similiar solution to what you are looking for is to just add a haste boost to boss mobs that scales with difficulty. If on elite Harry and Sally have marilath style melee attacks/round then AC and HP buffer are both viable options in their own right, with AC in the lead.

On normal yes, on elite I don't really think so.

[Stonen]

I really agree that s/b should become a viable playstyle again. It should allways be rewarded to wear a shield and heavy armor, even if you dont have the raidloot to make your ac matter. Ac is broken, and hard to fix. This solution with fortification looks promising. Maybe other forms of damage migitation on shields and heavy armor are needed as well. Like, 10% less incomming weapon damage with a tower shield equipped and 15% with a full plate.

We need other benifits from armor and shields besides ac.

[Lorad]

OK so I am new sorry if I am missing something.

Why not limit items to 50% fort?
Add 15% stackable to shields.
Add 10/10/10% to the pre tank choices.
Add 5% to the two weapon defense feat
Add 5% to the dodge feat

Add 5/10/20/30 to the haste and armor boosts.

Add the ability to get to ignore spell crits to 100% for wiz/sorc to throw them a bone.

Make a tank spec into a tank role.

[Gunga]

:)

[noinfo]

OK so I am new sorry if I am missing something.

Why not limit items to 50% fort?
Add 15% stackable to shields.
Add 10/10/10% to the pre tank choices.
Add 5% to the two weapon defense feat
Add 5% to the dodge feat

Add 5/10/20/30 to the haste and armor boosts.

Add the ability to get to ignore spell crits to 100% for wiz/sorc to throw them a bone.

Make a tank spec into a tank role.

The penalties for various difficulty levels I believe are important because it allows people to still run normal with little chance of being critted and then scales in hopes of rounding down some of the standard damage and high to hits (and possibly mob hp). There are many ways to configure the actual fortification and I am not really hung up on any 1 type, mine obviously like the rest of my post is only a suggestion and a starting point.

I would avoid giving 2 weapon defense and dodge any bonuses as I see them as being ac specific only not mitigating damage.

[grodon9999]

Wouldn't simply lowering the to-hit numbers so a "tank" could actually "tank" be as effective and simpler?

[noinfo]

Wouldn't simply lowering the to-hit numbers so a "tank" could actually "tank" be as effective and simpler?

Not really, by doing that you actually then favour the PJ wearing high dex club.

They can reach the same ac while dual weilding and out dpsing, though the goal is to be able to lower the to hit along with the potential for crits, the ballance being in the case of the PJ wearer, yeah they may not get hit except on a 20 (no grazing hits in this model) but they have a reasonable chance that that hit is a crit due to only 50% fort and no armour or shield and the mob with a bonus to confirm. See this as being very hard to be hit cleanly but when it happens you dont have a nice piece of metal between you and the blade.

In this model the barberian is actually better off than the twf PJ wearer when it comes to resisting crits (though they will probably still be critted more) due to the fact they wear armour.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, that is a real problem you have identified, although changing Fortification that way isn't the best solution.

A useful way to look at the problem is to consider Horoth's Disintegrate attack: it gives him a 5% chance to hit the tank for 500 damage. That's the same gameplay effect critical hits have, if everyone weren't immune to them.

[Angelus_dead]

Standard fortification item bonuses

+25% for Heavy armour types (based on WF natural bonus)
+15% for Medium armour types
+10% for Light armour types
There are multiple serious problems with that approach. It creates a whole new system for melee durability which is independent of AC, meaning that high AC characters (who thus deserve to work as tanks) may be squishy. It's also unopposed by the characteristics of the enemy: percentage immunities just aren't good game design.


In this model the barberian is actually better off than the twf PJ wearer when it comes to resisting crits (though they will probably still be critted more) due to the fact they wear armour.
Yeah, and that is a BAD thing.

Here is a repeat of my traditional suggestion to nerf fortification.
1. Sneak Attacks require confirmation to work, but with the same number as the attack roll.
2. Fortification no longer provides a percentage immunity to extra damage (except when provided by creature type, such as Undead and Elemental)
3. Instead, Fortification grants bonus AC against confirming critical hits and sneak attacks. The amount might be +5 from Light and +20 from Heavy, or whatever.
4. Optionally, Fortification also provides bonus stacking DR which applies only against the damage from critical hits and sneak attacks. Against critical hits, that DR is multiplied times (crit mult -1). The amount might be 3 from Light and 12 from Heavy, or whatever.
5. Optionally, add new effects like Major and Superior Fortification which are better than Heavy, but come on higher-level items.
6. Edit some powerful monsters (especially raid bosses and epic mode) to moderately reduce their physical damage.

Note that with this change in place, characters can still use Heavy Fortification to be immune to crits, as long as their underlying AC was enough that the +20 makes it impossible for the enemy to confirm.

Why Nerf Fortification like that? It'll improve four problems at once:
1. AC is meaningless to the majority of characters. The large number of game mechanics that raise or lower AC are also meaningless to them.
2. A monster having rogue levels or imp crit is meaningless to high-level characters.
3. Players in high level content never have to react to burst damage from standard monsters.
3b. To be threatening, the designers have had to increase the damage of high-level monsters so that all their hits are dangerous, which makes healing metronomic.
4. The Fortification item property caps out at about level 9 and then never improves.

[Angelus_dead]

Standard fortification item bonuses
+25% for Heavy armour types (based on WF natural bonus)
...
+25% for shield of any type
There are problems when you base it on item type like that:
1. The quality of the item is irrelevant to those effects, so that for some purposes a Masterwork Half Plate is better than a +5 Mithral Breastplate.
2. That system allows a barbarian to easily equip a shield for the specific fights where he'd hate to be critted.


A basic S/B would have 150% fortification base to be modified by difficulty level
Casual -0%
Normal -10%
Hard -25%
Elite -50%
Epic -75%
It is a mistake to have monster abilities which are directly set by difficulty level. (Note that DDO already does this with Grazing Hit range, which was a mistake too). To do that kind of thing causes perversity, where a level 1 Elite mob is in some ways superior to a level 13 Normal mob. It also causes double dipping and other problems.

The good way to handle difficulty mode is that it treats the monsters as if they came from higher level content.

[Gunga]

There are multiple serious problems with that approach. It creates a whole new system for melee durability which is independent of AC, meaning that high AC characters (who thus deserve to work as tanks) may be squishy. It's also unopposed by the characteristics of the enemy: percentage immunities just aren't good game design.


Yeah, and that is a BAD thing.

Here is a repeat of my traditional suggestion to nerf fortification.
1. Sneak Attacks require confirmation to work, but with the same number as the attack roll.
2. Fortification no longer provides a percentage immunity to extra damage (except when provided by creature type, such as Undead and Elemental)
3. Instead, Fortification grants bonus AC against confirming critical hits and sneak attacks. The amount might be +5 from Light and +20 from Heavy, or whatever.
4. Optionally, Fortification also provides bonus stacking DR which applies only against the damage from critical hits and sneak attacks. Against critical hits, that DR is multiplied times (crit mult -1). The amount might be 3 from Light and 12 from Heavy, or whatever.
5. Optionally, add new effects like Major and Superior Fortification which are better than Heavy, but come on higher-level items.
6. Edit some powerful monsters (especially raid bosses and epic mode) to moderately reduce their physical damage.

Note that with this change in place, characters can still use Heavy Fortification to be immune to crits, as long as their underlying AC was enough that the +20 makes it impossible for the enemy to confirm.

Why Nerf Fortification like that? It'll improve four problems at once:
1. AC is meaningless to the majority of characters. The large number of game mechanics that raise or lower AC are also meaningless to them.
2. A monster having rogue levels or imp crit is meaningless to high-level characters.
3. Players in high level content never have to react to burst damage from standard monsters.
3b. To be threatening, the designers have had to increase the damage of high-level monsters so that all their hits are dangerous, which makes healing metronomic.
4. The Fortification item property caps out at about level 9 and then never improves.

There are some great ideas in this post. I hope some devs are following. +1

[Thrudh]

There are some great ideas in this post. I hope some devs are following. +1

Yes, A_D's ideas on fortification are spot on...

It is bad design that we all have 100% fortification and no one is ever critted in high level content.

[Giddlypip]

Fortification is not really overpowered, IMO. It's just the way the game is designed... They do more damage per swing/swing faster because most players do have fortification. If heavy fort is taken away, they would have to change crit damage or something because people would get 1 shot way too often... so in essence reducing that damage just has the same effect of people still staying alive/dying at the same rates because damage is changed. It's not going to solve any problem, just a different way to get the same result.

Pip

[Svetelana]

Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

I am going to break this wall of text up into parts so if you are going to reply, please wait till last post.


This post is directly related to tanking builds, ac at higher levels and variation within different modes, casual, normal, hard, elite and epic.

First this is not a request to nerf Barberians, they are the premier sustained dps build.

It is a look at why Barberians are often the choice for tanking elite bosses.

Don't Barberians just cut hair? What's all this DPS/AC stuff?

[stopdying]

Why not put DR on armor (like blocking DR on shields) and have it stack with shields? That way dex AC characters dodge attacks, barbs ignore damage because of their HP pool, and tanks could absorb damage due to stacking DR from heavy armor and shields.

[noinfo]

There are problems when you base it on item type like that:
1. The quality of the item is irrelevant to those effects, so that for some purposes a Masterwork Half Plate is better than a +5 Mithral Breastplate.
2. That system allows a barbarian to easily equip a shield for the specific fights where he'd hate to be critted.


It is a mistake to have monster abilities which are directly set by difficulty level. (Note that DDO already does this with Grazing Hit range, which was a mistake too). To do that kind of thing causes perversity, where a level 1 Elite mob is in some ways superior to a level 13 Normal mob. It also causes double dipping and other problems.

The good way to handle difficulty mode is that it treats the monsters as if they came from higher level content.


Don't get me wrong with this post that I think my way is better, I proposesd one solution to what I believe is an obvious problem. And for the most part am more happy with your proposed solution with the exception that I will address in the end.

Armours should reflect their native type and in some cases possibly give a small bonus. MFP for example should be counted as heavy armour, Adamantine FP should perhaps have a +10% (using percentages still for example purposes only and not because I am hung up on my proposal)

I will stand by my belief that armour and shield should influence the fortification be it percentage (or standard type bonus). Yes a barberian should be able to equip a shield to reduce being crited even though he may not benefit from the ac, he is able to protect VITAL areas with it, and in this regard I believe representation as a percentage is a better option.

It is also something to consider that perhaps the high ac based 2wf will be more vulnerable to criticals than the heavy armour wearers, once again I see this as ideal, the reduced percentage (or whatever method) could be offset against the usually higher ac that needs to be confirmed against.

2wf while legitamate tanks have the advantage in dps so I see this a balance.

[sirdanile]

If you want to make armor add bonus to A_D's proposed solution to fortification I suggest having the armor add it's enhancement bonus to armor class against crits.

For example:

+5 full plate = 15 extra ac vs crits (x3 the enhancement bonus)
+5 breastplate = 10 extra ac vs crits (x2)
+5 chain shirt = 5 extra ac vs crits (x1)
Robes = 0 extra ac vs crits, or possibly half of the armor bracers bonus so +4 extra ac vs crits for 8 bracers, +3 for 6-7, etc.

Shield could do this as well, light shields = x1, large shields = x2, tower shields = x3
if you have a shield bonus from another source than a shield you could give half of it to the extra ac vs crits.

I am unsure on the warforged though, perhaps composite treated as light armor, mithril as medium and adamantine as heavy while the reinforced plating either adds +2 to the enhancement bonus before armor type is taken into account.

[Noctus]

Why not put DR on armor (like blocking DR on shields) and have it stack with shields? That way dex AC characters dodge attacks, barbs ignore damage because of their HP pool, and tanks could absorb damage due to stacking DR from heavy armor and shields.

I concure with this proposal. It would make heavy armor a viable choice again ( if the gained DR is "just right") while not needing a complete overhaul and then re-balancing of the fortification and thus damage-dealing of monsters system.

[xtchizobr]

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

armor class needs to be removed from the game then. and so does any armor heavier than robes.

for that matter, any class that isn't a bard, fvs, barbarian or rogue also needs to be removed because they bring nothing important to the group in epic mode. a party should ideally consist, therefore, of a bard/rogue multiclass, a fvs with 500 Heal scrolls, and four barbarians. for a raid, add one more fvs and the rest fill with barbarians.

class balance is important. it's very bad for one class to be obviously and overwhelmingly more desirable than others.

the idea of a "tank" did not originate in other mmos.

[Fafnir]

Solution is to have AC ALSO give DR.

[Aaxeyu]

Making heavy armor and shield better for tanking does not really adress the problem that a decent healer or two can outheal more or less any boss DPS in the game even if the guy who is tanking have no kind of mitigation at all.

[bobbryan2]

The problem here has nothing to do with barbarians, heavy armor, shields etc. The problem is AC. AC has become such a burden in this game that everyone has learned to soldier on as if AC wasn't even a statistic. When you have some character builds with ACs that approach 110, there's no way to challenge them and still challenge the 65 AC tank.

If AC had a wider range of mattering (more than 20), that would be an improvement. If Turbine just stopped catering to ACs over 80 and gave more methods of damage outside of physical, it may improve. Say, put Horoth's to hit at +60 but make him cast a lot more DBFs and meteor swarms, that may help.

But until AC is addressed, expect people to move on like it doesn't exist.

[noinfo]

The problem here has nothing to do with barbarians, heavy armor, shields etc. The problem is AC. AC has become such a burden in this game that everyone has learned to soldier on as if AC wasn't even a statistic. When you have some character builds with ACs that approach 110, there's no way to challenge them and still challenge the 65 AC tank.

If AC had a wider range of mattering (more than 20), that would be an improvement. If Turbine just stopped catering to ACs over 80 and gave more methods of damage outside of physical, it may improve. Say, put Horoth's to hit at +60 but make him cast a lot more DBFs and meteor swarms, that may help.

But until AC is addressed, expect people to move on like it doesn't exist.

First of all I agree that people often do not worry about ac. However I believe that one of the reasons ac can be ignored is 100% fortification all of the time. If you go back to my original set of ideas the idea is to bring to hit and damage of mobs back into a reasonable ballance line. I am not saying that a wider range of valid ac's would not be welcome it would be difficult to manage in a d20 system.

[noinfo]

Solution is to have AC ALSO give DR.

I once thought that might be the solution as well, but how much DR are you going to give them? Damage is still coming in at a predictable rate and lets face it barbarians have good dr anyway, even better with a WF DOD. Does not address current mobs massive too hit values or damage potentials as effectively I believe.

[Lleren]

If Shields and/or the various armor types gave stacking DR even when not blocking you would see significantly more folks using them.

It would break sections of the game and be called as easy mode, but they would be used.

As long as we use a d20 to determine skill checks there will be problems making any armor worthwhile under a certain AC, dependant on the area and difficulty. Whatever the mobs to hitbonus is in an area, any armor class under that bonus is useless as things currently exist, and you might as well be wearing robes. At least you can switch out robes quickly for a resist.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters. That is true for most characters at high levels in pen and paper versions as well in my experience. There most will continue wearing armor that no longer has any effectiveness at thier general level, because it makes sense to be prepared versus the lower level mobs that are out in the world as well. In an online game we do not face that threat, unless we choose to go back and grind favor.


Edit: part of the solution may be to cap the effectiveness of everything at various points. Jump skill already has been capped, and from a balance perspective capping stats has made sense for many games. To be clear I am talking about all the statistics, including things such as armor class, saves, skills, and resists. Preferably done in such a way that a character could go "over cap" to help protect against debuffing, and not in such a way that buffs fall off if you would of ended up "over cap"

[noinfo]

If Shields and/or the various armor types gave stacking DR even when not blocking you would see significantly more folks using them.

It would break sections of the game and be called as easy mode, but they would be used.

As long as we use a d20 to determine skill checks there will be problems making any armor worthwhile under a certain AC, dependant on the area and difficulty. Whatever the mobs to hitbonus is in an area, any armor class under that bonus is useless as things currently exist, and you might as well be wearing robes. At least you can switch out robes quickly for a resist.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters. That is true for most characters at high levels in pen and paper versions as well in my experience. There most will continue wearing armor that no longer has any effectiveness at thier general level, because it makes sense to be prepared versus the lower level mobs that are out in the world as well. In an online game we do not face that threat, unless we choose to go back and grind favor.


Edit: part of the solution may be to cap the effectiveness of everything at various points. Jump skill already has been capped, and from a balance perspective capping stats has made sense for many games. To be clear I am talking about all the statistics, including things such as armor class, saves, skills, and resists. Preferably done in such a way that a character could go "over cap" to help protect against debuffing, and not in such a way that buffs fall off if you would of ended up "over cap"

And with this we once again have DPS as being the only thing that matters as everything else will be capped.

[Lleren]

And with this we once again have DPS as being the only thing that matters as everything else will be capped.

I have no clue where you got that from what I wrote. Many of the factors that add to DPS would also capped. Mobs would need to be rebalanced if caps where introduced...

For example, if the maximum AC a mob can face from a player is X, then that is all they have to be made capable of defeating, and can be balanced to hit that AC whatever percent of times that Devs decided was balanced. Current max armor class is somewhere over 110 for a short time. Highest sustainable is in what, the 80's? Mobs currently must be balanced to deal with those numbers. If there was a maximum effective Armor Class, then that AC couold be made to matter by the Devs.

Considering what I wrote in my little "edit:" section that you commented on, I really fail to see what you mean. DPS would be lower as well... With a maximum effective armor class, builds could be designed to reach that AC, and mobs to hit that AC as often as the devs though appropriate. I doubt they would choose to have mobs hit 100% of the time.

[Razcar]

Don't Barberians just cut hair? What's all this DPS/AC stuff?Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.
http://www.andrewgoodsell.com/myb3tapics/conan.jpg

[noinfo]

I have no clue where you got that from what I wrote. Many of the factors that add to DPS would also capped. Mobs would need to be rebalanced if caps where introduced...

For example, if the maximum AC a mob can face from a player is X, then that is all they have to be made capable of defeating, and can be balanced to hit that AC whatever percent of times that Devs decided was balanced. Current max armor class is somewhere over 110 for a short time. Highest sustainable is in what, the 80's? Mobs currently must be balanced to deal with those numbers. If there was a maximum effective Armor Class, then that AC couold be made to matter by the Devs.

Considering what I wrote in my little "edit:" section that you commented on, I really fail to see what you mean. DPS would be lower as well... With a maximum effective armor class, builds could be designed to reach that AC, and mobs to hit that AC as often as the devs though appropriate. I doubt they would choose to have mobs hit 100% of the time.

Capping was something that occured in basically all editions prior to 3rd. AC basically -10 THAC0 basically at 1 stats at 25 etc. And it can be used to create a predictable scenario I agree.

However the problem you will experience is that in all likely hood is that everyone will hit the cap. I would imagine most barberians probably would not like the idea of their str at some artificial cap, afterall why rage if it can be hit without it etc, can others hit that cap as well and if so why have a barbarian in the first place? A scaled or "shaped" (not sure if this would be right) approach may be a bit better and tends to address the difference in ac and perhaps to hit values.

In this scenario there would be a series of soft caps where at each point the next lot of ac or to hit or damage etc would infact require more points than the 1-1 ratio, similar to the ddo stat point buys.

in this example (and i will only work in ac but would be expanded to other areas)

1-1 up to 55
2-1 up to 60
3-1 up to 65
4-1 up to 70

This would narrow the range of ac while keeping within the d20 and allow for progression beyond a simple cap.

[noinfo]

Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.
http://www.andrewgoodsell.com/myb3tapics/conan.jpg

But at least you know he will be back :-p.

[Greydeath]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

Right... that is the solution we are looking for :rolleyes:

Trippling mob damage would only serve to further exasperate the current issue - which you failed to determine - that increasing mob damage is what Turbine CURRENTLY relies upon making HP rather than AC king :mad:

[Aaxeyu]

Right... that is the solution we are looking for :rolleyes:

Trippling mob damage would only serve to further exasperate the current issue - which you failed to determine - that increasing mob damage is what Turbine CURRENTLY relies upon making HP rather than AC king :mad:

You are wrong, if mobs damage were drasticly increased, only having HP would not suffice.
The moment that "HP tank" can't tank, people will start using tanks that actually have some damage mitigation.


As usual It's nigh impossible to find any logic in your post...

[Spisey]

I like this solution! ;) It will further pigeonhole wf fb barbs as the ONLY future tanks and further require reconstruct casters as hjealing class for all elite / epic rading. This will be due to every future wf barb taking the fortification feat to scale their fortification above the requirement for said quest at said difficulty! ;):p:rolleyes:

At leat the clerics will be able to attend to the rest of the party instead of watching the hero! :o

Just one example on how to bypass your proposed ruleset and further break the game. :confused:

[Stonen]

You are wrong, if mobs damage were drasticly increased, only having HP would not suffice.
The moment that "HP tank" can't tank, people will start using tanks that actually have some damage mitigation.


As usual It's nigh impossible to find any logic in your post...
But a good durable ac is very gear dependant. If they tripple the damage only the elite players can tank a raid boss. I would rather see some other damage migitations that are more accessible.

[noinfo]

I like this solution! ;) It will further pigeonhole wf fb barbs as the ONLY future tanks and further require reconstruct casters as hjealing class for all elite / epic rading. This will be due to every future wf barb taking the fortification feat to scale their fortification above the requirement for said quest at said difficulty! ;):p:rolleyes:

At leat the clerics will be able to attend to the rest of the party instead of watching the hero! :o

Just one example on how to bypass your proposed ruleset and further break the game. :confused:

Yep and as long as they will ONLY ever run with someone with reconstruct, they will have 75% better fortification. Now if someone were to hit them with a curse against reconstruct we could all sit back and laugh at them.
Mind you as a result of the modifications the mobs hp, dps and to hit would drop so casters will probably let you be a stone so they can fw/nuke a bit, while the clerics drop some bb etc as well because they dont have to heal you at all and since others have valid ac it may be just as economical to put you in a backpack.

But look finally a actual use for that feat! another win.

Please provide another example for us all.

[Aaxeyu]

But a good durable ac is very gear dependant. If they tripple the damage only the elite players can tank a raid boss. I would rather see some other damage migitations that are more accessible.

Correction: Only the "elite players" can tank an elite raid boss.
Getting AC that's high enough for normal isn't really that hard.

[grodon9999]

We could all just play nothing but barbs, its seems to be what turbine wants.

/sarcasm off.

[Razcar]

We could all just play nothing but barbs, its seems to be what turbine wants.

/sarcasm off.It used to be like that. They revised the enhancement system (before that you had four "slots" only to fill, so only four enhancements to pick from) and gave barbs an enhancement line that granted +1 and +2 crit range to any weapon they used when raged. This was before PrE's so there wasn't anything to compete with this.

[Kriogen]

Problem with criticals in DDO is that they are based on PnP.

It's that x2, x3, x4 and so on thats the problem. A critical hits too much. So much it can 1 shot kill something. Thats not fun, atleast if you are on the receiving side.

Critical is a 'chance' and fortification also a 'chance' you don't get hit by critical. But because DDO combat is fast, that chance feels like "100% chance you get 1 shoted by any hit if you are not immune".

We become immune vs crits, because if we don't we drop dead in less then a second. In less then a cleric/fvs/someone/you has a time to react.

You have two solutions:
1. Change crit multiplier. Not x2, x3 but +20%, +30% of base damage

2. Let fortification work as percent(%) damage reduction vs critical damage. So reduces additional, critical damage by a percent. Not 'chance', allways, but not by 100%.

[grodon9999]

Problem with criticals in DDO is that they are based on PnP.

It's that x2, x3, x4 and so on thats the problem. A critical hits too much. So much it can 1 shot kill something. Thats not fun, atleast if you are on the receiving side.

Critical is a 'chance' and fortification also a 'chance' you don't get hit by critical. But because DDO combat is fast, that chance feels like "100% chance you get 1 shoted by any hit if you are not immune".

We become immune vs crits, because if we don't we drop dead in less then a second. In less then a cleric/fvs/someone/you has a time to react.

You have two solutions:
1. Change crit multiplier. Not x2, x3 but +20%, +30% of base damage

2. Let fortification work as percent(%) damage reduction vs critical damage. So reduces additional, critical damage by a percent. Not 'chance', allways, but not by 100%.


Since nobody can be critted at higher levels turbine has compensated this by having the mobs/bosses hit for more damage all the time. If 100% fort weren't easy the damage of mobs/bosses would have to be toned down to compesate.

I was level 10-12 and did an Elite tempest spine, was walking around with 75% fort. Got un-holy smitted by a drow Blackguard and went from 220 HP to zero in 1 shot, I got a heavy-fort item the first available chance I could.

back on topic, it might be simple enough on hard/elite to leave fortification alone, lower the to-hit numbers and increase the damage done to give tanks some meaning. Perhaps add some gear enhancements so us pajama-wearing guys can't hit the ACs needed to tank a raid-boss. DT or Green Steel shields maybe?

[Lleren]

Capping was something that occured in basically all editions prior to 3rd. AC basically -10 THAC0 basically at 1 stats at 25 etc. And it can be used to create a predictable scenario I agree.

However the problem you will experience is that in all likely hood is that everyone will hit the cap. I would imagine most barberians probably would not like the idea of their str at some artificial cap, afterall why rage if it can be hit without it etc, can others hit that cap as well and if so why have a barbarian in the first place? A scaled or "shaped" (not sure if this would be right) approach may be a bit better and tends to address the difference in ac and perhaps to hit values.

In this scenario there would be a series of soft caps where at each point the next lot of ac or to hit or damage etc would infact require more points than the 1-1 ratio, similar to the ddo stat point buys.

in this example (and i will only work in ac but would be expanded to other areas)

1-1 up to 55
2-1 up to 60
3-1 up to 65
4-1 up to 70

This would narrow the range of ac while keeping within the d20 and allow for progression beyond a simple cap.

A cap, is a cap, is a cap. If there is no maximum to balance around, or if that maximum is out of reach of AC characters without ( or even with ) a specific group makeup for buffs, you have the current situation.

Hard Caps/Soft Caps are not a player happy making option. Removing much of the current buffstacking could have a similar effect on numbers. Either way AC in game is currently rather borked.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters.

[noinfo]

A cap, is a cap, is a cap. If there is no maximum to balance around, or if that maximum is out of reach of AC characters without ( or even with ) a specific group makeup for buffs, you have the current situation.

Hard Caps/Soft Caps are not a player happy making option. Removing much of the current buffstacking could have a similar effect on numbers. Either way AC in game is currently rather borked.

Heavy/medium armor and shields currently need some other effect to be worthwhile wearing in the current game, at high levels, for most characters.

Sorry Lleren your solution is quite flawed. It would alienate quite a lot of players who strive for being the best in a particular area and provide quite a boring end game.

My proposed scaling solution is IMO better as:
We know already what is the highest ac achievable (would work from sustained not boosted) and there is a limit to stacking based on category of buff, eg natural armour
Your concern with stacking buffs is an issue and relys on 1 or more, with the proposed solution, you would get a larger benefit from the initial buff and sliding effects from each additional buff being put into the mix due to decreasing returns.
The goal should be an ac that fits onto a d20 not a 1 size fits all.

[noinfo]

Since nobody can be critted at higher levels turbine has compensated this by having the mobs/bosses hit for more damage all the time. If 100% fort weren't easy the damage of mobs/bosses would have to be toned down to compesate.

I was level 10-12 and did an Elite tempest spine, was walking around with 75% fort. Got un-holy smitted by a drow Blackguard and went from 220 HP to zero in 1 shot, I got a heavy-fort item the first available chance I could.

back on topic, it might be simple enough on hard/elite to leave fortification alone, lower the to-hit numbers and increase the damage done to give tanks some meaning. Perhaps add some gear enhancements so us pajama-wearing guys can't hit the ACs needed to tank a raid-boss. DT or Green Steel shields maybe?

I agree with quite a bit of what you have said, problem is that you only address part of the problem
So we nerf high ac pj toons so they can't tank, will now be the uncontested primary tank in many cases.

It needs an overal reballancing and yes base damage IS key to that but base damage and to hit will not be dropped while there is no possiblity of critting.

I see it as being 3 things
1 SB tank has good hp, stable damage when hit and low dps
2. Barb tank excellent hp, excellent dps, widely varing damage
3. PJ tank, ok hp, good dps and when hit unpredicatable levels of damage (though maybe not often)

Each now has a more ballaced and style to being front and center. It makes the SB more attractive because of the stable damage they will take and that can offset the lower damage.

[Riggs]

Turbine favored rangers for a while, after favoring fighters. Then they started to favor barbs - hard, and havent stopped since.

Crit rage blew away anything else any other melee had. Even Kensai doesnt come close to barb bonuses.

Messing around with fort is bad and silly. Turbine already jacked monster damage up through the roof, along with to hit bonuses. After jacking up ac bonuses way too high and ac tanks could waltz through everything and not be touched for a while.

The answer is not MORE damage, it is balanced damage. So yes armor and shield need to give stacking dr. Take half the total armor bonus including the +1-+5, and give that as dr.

So normal fp would give 4 dr. +5 fp would give 6.5, A +2 heavy shield 2 dr, +5 would give 3.5 dr, a +5 hound tower shield with the +1 alchemical bonus would add 5 dr on top of any armor.

adding in a stacking 12 dr on top of stoneskin say would go a long way to making a s&b build more useful. Have Pre lines give more stacking bonuses. not multiple NON-stacking ones that all end up being useless since 6 dr for stalwart defender 3...on a quest where even with a 75 ac your getting hit non-stop for 60 damage makes that 6 dr really pathetic. the fact that monks get 10 dr, like in the books, is pretty weak compared to monsters that, UNlike the books, do 3x the damage, or more.

Remove grazing hits.

Remove the stupid high ac stacking bonuses in the game AND remove monster to hit by the same amount, and epic/elite by more. When a 80 ac is meaningless in a d20 game it is no longer a d20 game.

Remove all the so many stacking str bonuses too. A 70 str in a d20 system is stupid. That is godlike str and the game was never remotely balanced to be runngin around with people with a +25 str bonus to hit and damage, and be able to lift 4 MILLION pounds. Seriously. A fairly strong cahracter should be 20. A very strong one maybe 40,(see a spread of 20 in a d20 system?) 60-70 is just absurd.

Stop adding in mana pots at the store and stop adding in mana clickies every mod. AND remove the need for a cleric to require more mana than they actually have to complete a quest even when they play smart.

Why do 'level 20 monsters' have spells that do damage 200-250 damage? Thats what...50d6 even assuming a 4s or better? Why are playings getting hit, multiple times a 'round', with level 50 spells?

Barbs beat out ac build when the game spams so much damage that ONLY barbs can survive a double hit of 500 point spells or 250 dbf + meteor swarms coming back to back, or multiple hits from a monster already doing 3x as much damage as they shoudl be and hitting for 50-60 damage. YAY 10 dr for stoneskin/monk....and a high ac, vs getting hit anyway and 60 point hits = might as well bring a 800 hp barb.

Take out grazing hits, and the stupid high monster to hit, but let them auto-hit on a 19-20 for elite, and 18-20 on epic. So an ac build would still matter even on epic, but they would still take damage, just not as much as the low ac build doing more damage.

Messing with fort would be complicated and break the game.

the answer is balancing the numbers back to a d20 system, not break it further.

[noinfo]

Take out grazing hits, and the stupid high monster to hit, but let them auto-hit on a 19-20 for elite, and 18-20 on epic. So an ac build would still matter even on epic, but they would still take damage, just not as much as the low ac build doing more damage.

Messing with fort would be complicated and break the game.

the answer is balancing the numbers back to a d20 system, not break it further.

I don't disagree with some of your points. However auto hit on 19 or20? No thanks.

Bringing numbers back in line with D20 is a reasonable goal but not mutually exclusive (see my opinion on some of the scalling not necessarily the best one but an option)

Messing with fort as you call it is actually fixing a broken system. 100% immune to crit is the same as monsters critting 100% of the time it is broken. One of the many reasons undead quests are not popular is because you cant crit things.

Grazing hits was a (I believe a ) flawed attempt to address the issue and should be removed, replacing it with auto hit on a lower number breaks things far worse than I could imagine.

Many people are caught up in the idea that crits are bad because of the massive damage they take with fortification now. They forget that under a system like this:
1. Damage totals on regular hits must be lower.
2. Ac can be effectively ballanced.

[Aaxeyu]

Crit rage blew away anything else any other melee had. Even Kensai doesnt come close to barb bonuses.

Fighters > barbs. Don't get on the "barb is so OP" train.


Messing around with fort is bad and silly.

It's actually 100% crit immunity for every character that's bad and silly.
Make fort add +XX AC to the critical confirmation rolls and it would make a difference if you had 3 or 50 AC.
High AC toons would still be crit immune.


The answer is not MORE damage, it is balanced damage.

Aslong as a healer have no problem healing a barb, there is no real need for an AC tank.
Higher damage is neccessary if you want anything to change.

If a melee DPS toon can easily tank anything without any damage mitigation, there will be less incentive to use a lesser DPS AC tank instead.



Remove the stupid high ac stacking bonuses in the game AND remove monster to hit by the same amount, and epic/elite by more. When a 80 ac is meaningless in a d20 game it is no longer a d20 game.

Remove all the so many stacking str bonuses too. A 70 str in a d20 system is stupid. That is godlike str and the game was never remotely balanced to be runngin around with people with a +25 str bonus to hit and damage, and be able to lift 4 MILLION pounds. Seriously. A fairly strong cahracter should be 20. A very strong one maybe 40,(see a spread of 20 in a d20 system?) 60-70 is just absurd.

The sooner you understand that this isn't PnP the better.
Loot/character progression is not really optional for a MMO.
And it doesn't really matter if you have 120 AC or 20 AC if the devs would learn to plan the character progression better and tier the endgame.

[Lleren]

Sorry Lleren your solution is quite flawed. It would alienate quite a lot of players who strive for being the best in a particular area and provide quite a boring end game.

My proposed scaling solution is IMO better as:
We know already what is the highest ac achievable (would work from sustained not boosted) and there is a limit to stacking based on category of buff, eg natural armour
Your concern with stacking buffs is an issue and relys on 1 or more, with the proposed solution, you would get a larger benefit from the initial buff and sliding effects from each additional buff being put into the mix due to decreasing returns.
The goal should be an ac that fits onto a d20 not a 1 size fits all.

I do not think you got where I was coming from. I will try to lay it out in simple points. Likely this will be long.

- Caps of any sort are unfun for players.

- Caps are a good idea for game designers to use to help them balance endgame.

- Any Cap, hardcap or softcap ( what you are proposing is a softcap ) is still a Cap.

- As the the game currently stands, Armor and Shields must have some other effect to be worth wearing for the majority of players at endgame.

- A random range of 1d20 is not enough of a random element when Top AC's vary over a range of 20-30 points, and for AC reliant Armor and Shield wearers the high end is unachieveable.

- I have never seen a screenshot of a 100 AC armor ( heavy or medium, or even light ) and shield user, perhaps they are out there. I have seen it explained how one could could get to 110+ AC on a clothy. I'm not looking for that link though.

- I have seen a screenshot of a 100+ AC clothwearer, for example see this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174696&highlight=westside Note please that this character is 4 levels short of current cap.

- Eliminating more buff stacking ( they have already started down this road, note Tempest AC buff change ) may help narrow the range of possible AC. I am doubtful whether this could be enough help.

- There are both in game caps, and limits to buff stacking, already in game.

- Lower caps , allows for more flexibility in building your dream character, as you have known benchmarks to hit. Having a dream character is fun.

- Less buff stacking , allowing for less reliance on the "perfect party" to get the buffs you need to have an effective score. You might have to get class X or Y, or Z... but not all three when you want to play in Epic Mode. Flexibility in group makeup is fun.

That should cover most of them.

This one though is the main point. Armor and Shields must have some effect to be worth wearing at endgame. Currently they are not an attractive enough option for many players.

[Bart_D]

The root of the problem may be that D&D 3.5, which DDO is based on, just isn't balanced at higher levels. I have played it a lot and balance just flies out the window around level 10-12. Since AC (and any other attribute) can be improved in so many stackable ways if you focus on it, different characters will have wildly varying values. And when AC (or attack bonus or whatever) vary by more than 10 or so between characters, some will almost always succeed where others will almost always fail. When the variation is 20+, some may as well not bother at all because they will always fail. So to mitigate it, either attributes such as AC must be compressed to a smaller range, or we need some other resolution mechanism than a d20.

[SquelchHU]

When i first saw fortification items i was like hey thats overpowered. And i still think so. Any pnp base for this bonus?The idea of shields and hevier armors giving fortification makes much more sense. I mean my rogue can tank naked. ***.

Yes there is though it mostly only comes on armor and shields. You even use it for exactly the same reason - since combat is a dps fest anyways and defense doesn't really work, you need it to prevent the damage spikes that would turn you from almost dead to dead.

[elyssaria]

Well to me there is another solution (which I know the devs are really afraid of).

No armor = no damage mitigation at all
Light armor = small damage mitigation
Medium armor = more mitigation
Heavy armor = large mitigation

Makes perfect sense that a heavy armor are able to take the damage much better then a light damage. Since a heavy armor build have very hard to get high ac then it should benefit of higher mitigation.

/Ely

[Aaxeyu]

Well to me there is another solution (which I know the devs are really afraid of).

No armor = no damage mitigation at all
Light armor = small damage mitigation
Medium armor = more mitigation
Heavy armor = large mitigation

Makes perfect sense that a heavy armor are able to take the damage much better then a light damage. Since a heavy armor build have very hard to get high ac then it should benefit of higher mitigation.

/Ely

Following that logic medium and light armor should offer even higher mitigation.

You should also know that AC is mitigation, if it's in range of the mobs tohit.