DPS Paladin - Please critique

[KRaNiX1337]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 420
Spell Points: 218
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 17
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 14 18
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 6 8
Charisma 14 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 8
Bluff 2 4
Concentration 6 23
Diplomacy 2 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 4
Heal -2 -1
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 2 4
Jump 3 6
Listen -2 -1
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 0
Search -1 0
Spot -2 -1
Swim 3 6
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 4 15

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Composite Plating
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Fortification
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
Feat: (Automatic) Warforged Resistances


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Enhancement: Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement: Follower of the Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III

[TechNoFear]

You don't have Imp Crit.
Extend is also very helpful.

Force of Personality is not great value for a high save paladin.
Oversized TWF is not great value.

What advantage does the monk splash give that a rogue splash or staying pure would not?
Rogue gives Evasion and Sneak, pure Paladin gives more DPS from capstone and faster attack speed.
Monk gives Evasion and +3-4 AC but only if equiped very, very well (and I don't think you will get to a meaningful AC at 20th with this build).

You also want the highest Exhalted Smite (rather than 20 more HP IMO).

[Crinos]

I agree with Tecno. Specifically:

On improved crit, there is an arguement for not taking it if you plan to run mainly with mineral II khopesh's since they are keen.
However on a pally, as holy sword gives you weapons which are almost as good, I find there are other items I'd rather craft first. As such, unless you've got a big stash of ingredients, Min II weapons can be a long way off.

Some additional things to consider:
On a WF pally specifically, it's tough to bump dex high enough for TWF and still pay the heavy stat point price to bump Cha. I always aim for 16 Cha on a pally as so much of what is unique about pallys is powered by Cha (and with a +2 tome I can hit 18 for divine might III).

Have you considered either going human or drow, or going 2 handed on the WF so you can dump dex and free up some more stat points for Cha? There are some nice WF enhancements that bring 2 handed fighting DPS up closer to TWF.

[Roguewiz]

The amount of sneak attack gained from Rogue 2 is negligible. You won't really see that much of a difference in terms of your DPS. You take 2 levels of Rogue for kill points and evasion. Monk is a different story. You gain Evasion as well, but also gain extra AC depending on your gear AND two feats.

The two feats + evasion are the reason to take 2 levels of Monk.

@ Kranix

You don't need Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. You can remove that. Your Strength will be adquate and your BAB won't be too bad, 19 as a matter of fact. So you can argueably get by in NOT having it. The only difference maker is the fact that you have Power Attack. You'd be taking an addition to hit for not having OTWF while using two Kopeshes, in addition to the to-hit negative you'd take for Power Attack.

Force of Personality isn't really necessary for Paladins, as Techno stated. You're already gaining more saves from your Charisma bonus. You really don't need more. As a Paladin, you're already Immune to Fear. As a Warforged, you have some Will based Immunities as well. As such, the Feat is really wasted on a "Toaster" Paladin. :p

[TechNoFear]

Monk is a different story. You gain Evasion as well, but also gain extra AC depending on your gear AND two feats.

This build will have a much lower AC in robes than FP, not that its AC will stop much damage.

My point was that unless the Monk feats are very valuable, then splashing Monk is a DPS loss (compared to a pure paladin which attacks faster, gets D6 vs everything and an additional 2D6 vs EOs and Undead).

To get Evasion AND DPS, Rogue is a better splash (if you have the feats required).

As pure Pal or Rogue you could get;
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
PA
ImpCrit (swapped for Extend when you have Min2s)
Toughness
ExWeapon: Khopesh

What other 2 feats are required?

[Roguewiz]

You are correct that there isn't much more "required" for DPS. The only feat that can effectively help the melee DPS of this toon is OTWF, which while not necessary on a high BAB toon, can still be beneficial.

Outside of that, the extra feats from Monk can be used to increase survivability or add extra utility. An example would be Extend Spell, which will help keep buffs up longer. (plus, I heard a rumor that it effects Divine Might...haven't tested this myself). So argueably, you can use Monk Levels for Toughness and TWF and normal levels for the rest.

Edit:

So, he could do this as a Paladin 18/Monk 2

1 PA
1 Monk TWF
2 Monk Toughness
3 Focus Slashing
6 OTWF
9 ITWF
12 Extend Spell
15 GTWF
18 Imp Crit Slashing

[Crinos]

An example would be Extend Spell, which will help keep buffs up longer. (plus, I heard a rumor that it effects Divine Might...haven't tested this myself)

That rumor is not correct. I can confirm that extend does not affect Divine Might. Tested in game.

Having said that, I still rate extend on a Pally. 4 minute Divine Favors and Zeals are much more clicky friendly.

[Roguewiz]

That rumor is not correct. I can confirm that extend does not affect Divine Might. Tested in game.

Having said that, I still rate extend on a Pally. 4 minute Divine Favors and Zeals are much more clicky friendly.
Ty for the confirmation. :D And I agree, Extend Spell is awesome

[KRaNiX1337]

The toon has already hit 20, and was a THF paladin for a while. However, one on one, main tanking, I would like to push my DPS so I can maintain hate tank status easily.

The toon has big ass weapons, but I still believe TWF will be a significant boost, enough to warrant the change.

As for the splash, I do not believe 1-3d6 is a good enough reason to give up evasion, 45hp, +3 to all saves. Or better, no HP, but two more feats of my choice. Kranixx already sits at 645 unbuffed, and is not yet fully crafted (waiting on that KoTC ring). Today Kranixx hit 800hp self buffed and in tank mode, for a DPS paladin thats pretty respectable (still need yugoloth favor for another 40hp). Now I just need to wait till Sunday to remove that extra rogue level so I can get back to KoTC 3.

I had improved critical, but the min2 greatsword made it obsolete, will consider it over force of personality though. Extend is a waste, I will have 600sp and a bauble for another 500 or so, plenty enough to renew all buffs through a VoD while keeping up divine sacrifice.

Total sacrifice over current design to get TWF? -1 Charisma -1 wisdom. Drops the uneven charisma a point, completely worthwhile for twf and a chance at 24 dex.

Smites are nice, but are just a big sudden damage boost, I am not sure I want to spec in a skill I can only use 8-11 times per rest. That's why this build is focusing on consistent dps through KoTC3, KoTC ring set, min2 weapons, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice.

When I first built Kranixx, it was common for his smites to crit for over 550, but his base damage sat at around 35 a swing. Now, hes at base 50 a swing, and smites for 400, a worthwhile trade off me thinks.

[Aaxeyu]

As for the splash, I do not believe 1-3d6 is a good enough reason to give up evasion, 45hp, +3 to all saves. Or better, no HP, but two more feats of my choice. Kranixx already sits at 645 unbuffed, and is not yet fully crafted (waiting on that KoTC ring). Today Kranixx hit 800hp self buffed and in tank mode, for a DPS paladin thats pretty respectable (still need yugoloth favor for another 40hp). Now I just need to wait till Sunday to remove that extra rogue level so I can get back to KoTC 3.

The question is, how good is evasion really, when you have that kind of HP.
Unless you go for an AC build, I don't think it's worth splashing monk and lose the capstone. 3d6 damage is alot.

[Crinos]

Extend is a waste, I will have 600sp and a bauble for another 500 or so, plenty enough to renew all buffs through a VoD while keeping up divine sacrifice.
.

I wasn't advocating extend for mana preservation, but for clicky management.
As you are clearly aware, Pallys can be very short term buff dependant if you want to get the most DPS out of them. While I agree that extend is by no means necessary I find it much easier to manage everything else if I only have to worry about divine favour and zeal half as often.
No doubt a personal thing, and it would be the first feat to go if I had one less feat selection.

[KRaNiX1337]

Its pretty important, it reduces most fire and elec damage to 0, allows me to jump traps to help manage agro while the rogue takes care of the traps, and it usually allows me to evade more than 50% of the damage from arri's meteor strikes.


The question is, how good is evasion really, when you have that kind of HP.
Unless you go for an AC build, I don't think it's worth splashing monk and lose the capstone. 3d6 damage is alot.

[KRaNiX1337]

Last mmorpg I played, the paladin class buffs were called prayers, and only lasted 3-6 secs at a time and for the most part you could only have one active at any given time. We ended up constantly renewing all prayers during melee, as you could enable one, enable the next enable the next, and they would stack, until the first wore off after 4-5 secs, allowing you to keep them all active at once. It was extremely clickie intensive. Kind of used to renewing them every time I run into a fight


I wasn't advocating extend for mana preservation, but for clicky management.
As you are clearly aware, Pallys can be very short term buff dependant if you want to get the most DPS out of them. While I agree that extend is by no means necessary I find it much easier to manage everything else if I only have to worry about divine favour and zeal half as often.
No doubt a personal thing, and it would be the first feat to go if I had one less feat selection.

[Stamp3de]

The toon has already hit 20, and was a THF paladin for a while. However, one on one, main tanking, I would like to push my DPS so I can maintain hate tank status easily.

The toon has big ass weapons, but I still believe TWF will be a significant boost, enough to warrant the change.

As for the splash, I do not believe 1-3d6 is a good enough reason to give up evasion, 45hp, +3 to all saves. Or better, no HP, but two more feats of my choice. Kranixx already sits at 645 unbuffed, and is not yet fully crafted (waiting on that KoTC ring). Today Kranixx hit 800hp self buffed and in tank mode, for a DPS paladin thats pretty respectable (still need yugoloth favor for another 40hp). Now I just need to wait till Sunday to remove that extra rogue level so I can get back to KoTC 3.

I had improved critical, but the min2 greatsword made it obsolete, will consider it over force of personality though. Extend is a waste, I will have 600sp and a bauble for another 500 or so, plenty enough to renew all buffs through a VoD while keeping up divine sacrifice.

Total sacrifice over current design to get TWF? -1 Charisma -1 wisdom. Drops the uneven charisma a point, completely worthwhile for twf and a chance at 24 dex.

Smites are nice, but are just a big sudden damage boost, I am not sure I want to spec in a skill I can only use 8-11 times per rest. That's why this build is focusing on consistent dps through KoTC3, KoTC ring set, min2 weapons, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice.

When I first built Kranixx, it was common for his smites to crit for over 550, but his base damage sat at around 35 a swing. Now, hes at base 50 a swing, and smites for 400, a worthwhile trade off me thinks.

Extend really isn't much about saving SP rather than not having to rebuff in the middle of a fight, especially when u plan on tanking. Your gunna fail ur con checks while trying to cast or gunna have to run around casting, which will cause a chunk of dps loss.

Also 19 lvls of pally get u access to Divine Sacrifice 3, another 2d6 dmg.

[KRaNiX1337]

I thought your paladin was 18/2 with the splash in rogue? Why did you change?



Extend really isn't much about saving SP rather than not having to rebuff in the middle of a fight, especially when u plan on tanking. Your gunna fail ur con checks while trying to cast or gunna have to run around casting, which will cause a chunk of dps loss.

Also 19 lvls of pally get u access to Divine Sacrifice 3, another 2d6 dmg.

[Stamp3de]

More dps, and evasion isn't necessary. Also for epic SoS with silver on it. The only thing I miss is the bonus to umd, but I sit at a 38 now with 7 fingered gloves on so its not so bad.

[KRaNiX1337]

Can I get a breakdown of how you hit 38? Been trying to figure out how to hit it myself.

Heck, can I see an updated character sheet?


More dps, and evasion isn't necessary. Also for epic SoS with silver on it. The only thing I miss is the bonus to umd, but I sit at a 38 now with 7 fingered gloves on so its not so bad.

[Stamp3de]

Can I get a breakdown of how you hit 38? Been trying to figure out how to hit it myself.



11 ranks
+10 cha mod
+5 umd gloves
+2 HoGF
+6 shroud item
+4 gh

My updated version is pretty much this build:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=219888

But I maxed out Str with lvl ups and took a few different tiers of enhancments.