Advice Request on “Battle” Clerics, Spell Selection, & Spell Pen

[peterfrosty42]

So, there I was, pulling together my planned build for a “battle cleric” I’d been pondering. What do I (personally) mean by “battle cleric” you ask? Well, I think The_Great_Samulas said it best in his “Path to Enlightenment” thread. So, I’ll quote him here:

The_Great_Samulas (trimmed by me to focus on points I want to emphasize) -- "There are two main types of battle clerics. The most common is a cleric based build that is designed to fight, providing buffs for himself and some down-time healing for the group and himself. This type of battle cleric doesn't take responsibility for keeping the group alive and governing the course of a battle with crowd control, offensive casting, and kiting. ….. The second more rare form of a battle cleric is just a cleric that has been built to be able to fight, they still believe keeping the group alive is their responsibility… I don't consider the second type of "battle cleric" a battle cleric at all but simply a properly played advanced cleric"

…and, there I was, taking aim at “the second type of battle cleric” for my next character. I’d decided that keeping the party alive (other than the stupid..can’t heal stupid) is priority #1, contributing CC and DPS as I can. I just needed to decide HOW I wanted to do that.

…and, there I was, pondering the “HOW”. My initial leaning was toward a human cleric with a monk splash (probably two levels for the two bonus feats, evasion, and water stance). Planned Wisdom was still extremely high (starting wis of 17, with all level-ups in wis, +2 for water stance). Motivation for high wisdom is for WIS->AC bonus (+14 or 15 AC), power, and max spell DCs (of note – spell DC should just as high, or higher, than most “pure” clerics due to Human Adaptability and Water Stance).

…and, there I was, when an epiphany hit me -- yes, my spell DC will be very difficult for the Critter to save against, but my ability to break spell penetration seemed lacking. With two splash levels (-2 on penetration rolls), and no room for Spell Pen feats (+2 for normal spell pen, another +2 for improved spell pen) due to the melee-centric feat usage, there’ll be spells I should fully expect to have difficulty landing, especially as I progress to the higher levels.

…and, there I was, asking myself the following questions: “Is having less-than-ideal Spell Penetration REALLY an issue, considering most spells I’ll cast (heals/buffs) have no Spell Penetration requirement? Which offensive spells would be negatively affected? Of those, which would I actually miss, at end-game? What spells don’t have to penetrate spell resistance? Can any of these no-spell-resistance spells fill in the gap?”.

…and, there I was, gathering the list of OFFENSIVE spells which need penetrate spell resist (skipped 1,2,3 level spells…probably not casting these much in later content)!


-------NEED TO PENETRATE SPELL RESISTANCE

--Save or DIE!!!
Dismissal (4)
Slay Living (5)
Banishment (6)
UnDeath to Death (6)
Destruction (7)
Symbol of Death (8)
Implosion (9)

--Damage/Debuff
Chaos Hammer (4)
Poison (4)
Symbol of Pain (5)
Symbol of Weakness (7)
Energy Drain (9)

--Crowd Control
Greater Command (5)
Symbol of Persuasion (6)
Symbol of Fear (6)
Symbol of Stunning (7)

…and, there I was, intently pondering, “Is that…it? Of all the divine spells, are these the only spells I’ll have penetration problems with?”.

Save-or-die spells are nice when built for (e.g. offensive caster), but I’d probably not cast them regardless, as it’s not the style of character I’m building for. Symbols have their place, but I’ve RARELY seen them used effectively in group situations.

Only 4 spells that really jump-out at me, as ones I’d REALLY miss.
1) Greater Command – AoE CC can never be underestimated in its ability to prevent damage in the first place. I acknowledge this.
2) Destruction – Save/Die or decent damage
3) Energy Drain – Level damage hurts
4) Implosion – Even though the hover says Spell Resist: No, it indeed must pass a penetration roll (or so I’ve read)

…and, there I was, gathering the list of other very useful OFFENSIVE spells which DO NOT need penetrate spell resist (and benefit from the builds very high spell DC), that I can spend my spell points on (other than the heals/buffs)


-------DO NOT NEED TO PENETRATE SPELL RESISTANCE

Blade Barrier – With maximize meta and very high DCs, the BBs should be extremely effective
Cometfall – Knockdown (reflex-based, should be great against casters)
Greater Glyph of Warding – Trap-like spell damage
Summon Monster – Handy at times
Fire Storm – No SR, No Save
Order’s Wrath – Save, or be dazed
Holy Smite – Save, or be blinded
Cures/Heal – Against undead specifically
Harm – Will save only

…and, there I was, wondering if I really would miss the spells that must penetrate a mob’s SR. I’d have great casted non-typed damage in BBs (static AoE), decent damage via Fire Storm (casted AoE), Glyph of Warding (trap AoE), and Mass Cures and Heals (against undead). I’d have some CC in Cometfall, which would be especially effective against casters due to reflex save. And besides, most of my spell pool will go toward healing/buffing. I think Greater Command would be missed the most.

…and so, here I am, wondering if this makes sense to anyone else. Thoughts…?

[Renvar]

So, what exactly are your feat selections?

Monk:
Toughness
PA/Dodge/TWF

With a Human, you have 8 more:

The following Metamagics are mandatory:
Extend
Quicken
Maximize
Emp Healing

That leaves 4 more to go. You can't get Spell Pen I in there at least and maybe Spell Pen II as well? What are you taking with these 4 feats?

I think you can work them in. If you are giving more than 3 of your (non-monk)feats to non-casting feats then you might be getting a little far away from the 2nd type of cleric and getting more into the 1st type. This is a delicate balance. I have seen many a build try to get the melee power of the first while trying to hang onto the advanced cleric's spell casting and end up stuck in the middle as a mediocre melee who can't land an offensive spell, can't heal the party in a serious battle, and repeatedly runs out of mana 5 min into the quest.

[peterfrosty42]

With all due respect DDOTalk71 (and I mean absolutely no offense by this) but the choice of “other feats” has yet to be decided, and is, in all honesty, somewhat irrelevant to what I’m researching. I’m attempting to establish functional thresholds for a healer/buff cleric with secondary melee. Essentially, what is the minimum investment in levels and feats before it becomes too watered down (…and does losing the ability to pierce spell resistance due to class splash and no SpellPen feats cross this too-watered-down threshold? …or can it be made up in other areas?).

Another point I didn’t cover – what REALLY started me down these paths was Valiance’s “Solo focused cleric: High DCs/AC/Saves/Evasion/Melee Capable” 17cleric/2monk/1rogue build (which is still on the front page of the cleric forum, even though the original post was in 2008). In that build, he’s only got 17 cleric levels, and no spell penetration feats, and seems to be having resounding successes (albeit solo oriented). Here’s a copy/paste from his post:

Feats-
1 Rogue level 1 (2 wpn fighting)
2,3Cleric level 3 (extend)
4 monk (wpn Finesse)
5 monk (power attack)
6 cleric (maximize)
9 cleric (empower)
12 cleric (improved 2 wpn fighting)
15 cleric (quicken)
18 Grtr 2 wpn fighting

Which started me wondering...if I wanted to build something at all akin to Valiance’s class distribution (or some other build which doesn’t max the cleric levels and spell pens feats), what am I giving up? And were there any “work-arounds” for the missing Greater Command CC and Save-Or-DIE spells, in this build's inherent lack of spell resist penetration capabilities?

And I’m starting to think 17 levels in cleric, and at least the 4 feats you mention (extend, maximize, quicken, empowered heals) is about where the minimum threshold lays…for keeping the group alive as a primary healer/buffer (given some scroll usage to make-up for smaller power pool…CCing with spells that don’t take a mob’s spell resist into account).

Basically, as I debate the build with the other voices in my head, I want to find the proverbial “line-in-the-sand” in which I will not cross. I’ll probably end up with 18 or 19 levels of cleric, and investing another one or two metamagic feats into the mix, but that’s not the point.

I’m in a sandbox, wondering if others have drawn their lines elsewhere. Once I’ve figured out the minimum levels/feats to keep me a viable primary healer, and I’ve figured out the minimum melee splash/feats, I can begin to negotiate the middle-ground of splashes/feats left to be filled.

And again, and as always, thanks for the input :)

[The_Great_Samulas]

It’s a good question. I have several divine casters and it is a balancing act between melee and casting ability as your secondary role. The answer is quite situational as far as whether you need the spell penetration feats or not. This is because in solo play, blade barrier often rules the roost so to speak, but it doesn’t work very well in group play. If you want to raid/epic you will do fine as long as you get the necessary healing enhancements and empower healing, maximize, and quicken. If you don’t want to raid, you can do ok without empower healing. Whether you go fighting feats or casting feats after that won’t affect your core healing ability. Some of the spells you have listed such as greater command don’t work well in Amarath anyways, and will require heighten as well to successfully land. A lot of the instant death spells don’t work in high end anymore unless you specialize in them with two more feats (they still work quite well on my necro specced wizard) and of course they don’t work at all in epic. My recommendation would be to not get the spell pen feats if you don’t want to specialize in casting. Another thing to consider too, is melee clerics do fairly well in epic content.

You will have to decide which way you want to go as far as casting vs. melee. Remember you can always respec. The build you quoted is more of a solo oriented build (which remember can rely on blade barrier to kill 95% of its targets).

[peterfrosty42]

Thank you Samulas, for you've silenced many of the aforementioned nagging/questioning "voices in my head". I am in your debt...


...in solo play, blade barrier often rules the roost so to speak, but it doesn’t work very well in group play. If you want to raid/epic you will do fine as long as you get the necessary healing enhancements and empower healing, maximize, and quicken.
I plan on re-establishing this character as my "main", and as such, will need to successfully function in both capacities. I honestly prefer raids/grouping compared to the solo scene, but I've got many of those mid-life responsibilities (career/wife/kids/house/dogs etc...), so this toon absolutely NEEDS to function well solo as there's just not the time, too many distractions in the house, and nobody's happy with the cleric than needs to drop mid-quest...

And when time permits, I'll be raiding/grouping. You've reinforced my belief that with proper enhancements and above-mentioned feat list, that I should have the required tools to perform a healer role for raids. I will use this as my line-in-the-sand. And maybe someday I'll be the one saying, "I like to go around corners and run ahead alot. I am the zerging cleric, come with me if you want to live...". Just has a "Princess Bride" feel to it ;)


Some of the spells you have listed such as greater command don’t work well in Amarath anyways, and will require heighten as well to successfully land. A lot of the instant death spells don’t work in high end anymore unless you specialize in them with two more feats (they still work quite well on my necro specced wizard) and of course they don’t work at all in epic.
This is as I'd expected, thanks for the reinforcement. Barring heavy feat commitment and near pure class line, I wasn't sure whether or not to expect extreme problems landing SR-piercing spells at endgame, regardless. Surely the CCing is great during leveling, but my endgame build plan will not focus spell penetration. Just not seeing the motivation, and will instead invest the enhancements/feats/slots toward powering my healer abilities, or melee abilities. I think I'll have plenty of spells to keep me busy, rather than wasting mana on endgame CC that won't land.

Again, thanks for the input.

[Renvar]

With all due respect DDOTalk71 (and I mean absolutely no offense by this) but the choice of “other feats” has yet to be decided, and is, in all honesty, somewhat irrelevant to what I’m researching. I’m attempting to establish functional thresholds for a healer/buff cleric with secondary melee. Essentially, what is the minimum investment in levels and feats before it becomes too watered down (…and does losing the ability to pierce spell resistance due to class splash and no SpellPen feats cross this too-watered-down threshold? …or can it be made up in other areas?).

Another point I didn’t cover – what REALLY started me down these paths was Valiance’s “Solo focused cleric: High DCs/AC/Saves/Evasion/Melee Capable” 17cleric/2monk/1rogue build (which is still on the front page of the cleric forum, even though the original post was in 2008). In that build, he’s only got 17 cleric levels, and no spell penetration feats, and seems to be having resounding successes (albeit solo oriented). Here’s a copy/paste from his post:

Feats-
1 Rogue level 1 (2 wpn fighting)
2,3Cleric level 3 (extend)
4 monk (wpn Finesse)
5 monk (power attack)
6 cleric (maximize)
9 cleric (empower)
12 cleric (improved 2 wpn fighting)
15 cleric (quicken)
18 Grtr 2 wpn fighting

Which started me wondering...if I wanted to build something at all akin to Valiance’s class distribution (or some other build which doesn’t max the cleric levels and spell pens feats), what am I giving up? And were there any “work-arounds” for the missing Greater Command CC and Save-Or-DIE spells, in this build's inherent lack of spell resist penetration capabilities?

And I’m starting to think 17 levels in cleric, and at least the 4 feats you mention (extend, maximize, quicken, empowered heals) is about where the minimum threshold lays…for keeping the group alive as a primary healer/buffer (given some scroll usage to make-up for smaller power pool…CCing with spells that don’t take a mob’s spell resist into account).

Basically, as I debate the build with the other voices in my head, I want to find the proverbial “line-in-the-sand” in which I will not cross. I’ll probably end up with 18 or 19 levels of cleric, and investing another one or two metamagic feats into the mix, but that’s not the point.

I’m in a sandbox, wondering if others have drawn their lines elsewhere. Once I’ve figured out the minimum levels/feats to keep me a viable primary healer, and I’ve figured out the minimum melee splash/feats, I can begin to negotiate the middle-ground of splashes/feats left to be filled.

And again, and as always, thanks for the input :)

Sorry. I guess I left out this part of my point of view:

As a cleric, you can pretty much heal at end game as long as you have a pulse and 4 key feats. You then get to pick something else to do. Your choices are offensive/cc cast or Melee. Now for the first 15 levels you can do all three. But by end game the mobs and bosses will be such that you will have to pick. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you try to do heal, melee, and casting you will end up with a gimp. (Not go Miagyi on you, but right side of road (melee) ok. Left side of road (offensive/cc casting) ok, middle of road...splat.)

It takes at least 3-4 feats to build a decent melee capable cleric and two levels of fighter or monk. Unless you want to sacrifice your healing feats (A bad choice unless you are moving to that 1st type of cleric) you can't get the casting feats in there with the melee feats.

On the casting side, you should keep your cleric levels and get the spell pen feats to be able to land anything really well. You can't be giving up 2 or 3 caster levels and not have the feats and think you can do much besides comet fall and BB things.

And by picking one to favor, you can be freed for other advantages. Example: If you go melee, you can probably start with a 16 or 17 wisdom instead of 18. Since DC's don't matter as much to you, all you are losing is a few SP. But the 3 or 6 build points could equal much more on your melee stats.

And then there is gear selections. It is challenging enough to fit all the end game gear you need. Trying to have healing gear, casting gear, and melee gear all on the same character would be very challenging. You will have to make some trade offs and swap gear constantly as you want to switch functions. Not exactly always going to work out in the heat of the battle.

I think you are better served to pick a primary and secondary role and sacrifice the third one. You can still use that third option in weak content like IQ or in lower content like Reaver, Titan, VON, and DQ raids, but for end game, elite, or epic you should be sticking to your top two.

Just my 2cp.

[soupertc]

And maybe someday I'll be the one saying, "I like to go around corners and run ahead alot. I am the zerging cleric, come with me if you want to live...". Just has a "Princess Bride" feel to it ;)




I will expect royalty payments in PLAT if that goes in your BIO. I am the ZERGin Cleric after all.

I wish ya the best of luck.......hmmmmm maybe I should start a franchise?!?!?!?!?!?