The truth about Cleave finally revealed

[BrotherX]

I've read over a dozen posts about the Cleave feat and just about everyone suggests to pick something else because 2handed weapons have slash damage. On paper though it appears Cleave is superior to 2Weapon Fighting...is my math off?
Scenario - Warrior X is fighting 5 mobs with Cleave and every 5 seconds has 4 normal attacks (and slash damage) and 1 cleave. Attacks do 20 damage and slash does 5. - Total damage after 1 minute is 3,120
Warrior Z is fighting 5 mobs with 2WF and every 5 seconds has 10 attacks. - Total damage after 1 minute is 2,400

[Judo]

i dont know where to begin

so ill let someone else

[Vhlad]

I've read over a dozen posts about the Cleave feat and just about everyone suggests to pick something else because 2handed weapons have slash damage. On paper though it appears Cleave is superior to 2Weapon Fighting...is my math off?
Scenario - Warrior X is fighting 5 mobs with Cleave and every 5 seconds has 4 normal attacks (and slash damage) and 1 cleave. Attacks do 20 damage and slash does 5. - Total damage after 1 minute is 3,120
Warrior Z is fighting 5 mobs with 2WF and every 5 seconds has 10 attacks. - Total damage after 1 minute is 2,400

By "slash damage" do you mean, glancing blows?

Either way, yah man you're right. All the vets who have been playing for 4 years are totally insane. Cleave is the way to go. Even Turbine knows cleave is uber because they include it in the class paths.

Go virtuoso of the sword, recommended elf, all the way.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:Virtuoso_of_the_Sword_(Elf_Profile)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Bastard Swords, 8 con. This is your ticket to end-game and epic content. Do it!

[KillEveryone]

Cleave is required for the barbarian PrE.

So what is actually wrong with cleave then?

I had thought about taking it with my fighter.

Does it only work with THF or would TWF actually benifit?

On the barb I had thought about taking the Great Cleave.

[mjb27]

Unless you explain how you got to 3120 total damage for Warrior X, I'd say your math is off. How are you getting 260 damage every 5 seconds with Warrior X? 4 "normal attacks" by your numbers is 80 damage, 4 "slash" is another 20. How is the cleave doing 160 damage?

[Judo]

By "slash damage" do you mean, glancing blows?

Either way, yah man you're right. All the vets who have been playing for 4 years are totally insane. Cleave is the way to go. Even Turbine knows cleave is uber because they include it in the class paths.

Go virtuoso of the sword, recommended elf, all the way.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:Virtuoso_of_the_Sword_(Elf_Profile)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Bastard Swords, 8 con. This is your ticket to end-game and epic content. Do it!

not too shabby, just the right amount of sarcasm

+1 if you gave a sh**

[Sydril]

I've read over a dozen posts about the Cleave feat and just about everyone suggests to pick something else because 2handed weapons have slash damage. On paper though it appears Cleave is superior to 2Weapon Fighting...is my math off?
Scenario - Warrior X is fighting 5 mobs with Cleave and every 5 seconds has 4 normal attacks (and slash damage) and 1 cleave. Attacks do 20 damage and slash does 5. - Total damage after 1 minute is 3,120
Warrior Z is fighting 5 mobs with 2WF and every 5 seconds has 10 attacks. - Total damage after 1 minute is 2,400

+1 rep for cracking me up.

You forgot about warrior Y in that scenario. He's the guy with the bow who is running all over the place pulling aggro from everything and making you chase it.

[hydra_ex]

I've read over a dozen posts about the Cleave feat and just about everyone suggests to pick something else because 2handed weapons have slash damage. On paper though it appears Cleave is superior to 2Weapon Fighting...is my math off?
Scenario - Warrior X is fighting 5 mobs with Cleave and every 5 seconds has 4 normal attacks (and slash damage) and 1 cleave. Attacks do 20 damage and slash does 5. - Total damage after 1 minute is 3,120
Warrior Z is fighting 5 mobs with 2WF and every 5 seconds has 10 attacks. - Total damage after 1 minute is 2,400

Yes. Your math is off. You might want to try using real numbers.

[binnsr]

Yes. Your math is off. You might want to try using real numbers.

because integers just don't cut it for real data!!!

:)

[jcTharin]

as far as i can tell its because cleave interrupts the combo. it also takes longer then a normal attack and thus if you cleave you get less attacks in. more attacks = more damage.

why do you think people sometimes cant decide when to muliticlass a fighter?

why do you think people scream for haste so much?

why do you think people say that fighter haste boost "is just that awesome"?

cleave takes a while to work. so unless your hitting a lot of mobs with it it means you have gotten less hits in.

and in this game where dps is king less hits = very bad

[TheDjinnFor]

I've read over a dozen posts about the Cleave feat and just about everyone suggests to pick something else because 2handed weapons have slash damage. On paper though it appears Cleave is superior to 2Weapon Fighting...is my math off?
Scenario - Warrior X is fighting 5 mobs with Cleave and every 5 seconds has 4 normal attacks (and slash damage) and 1 cleave. Attacks do 20 damage and slash does 5. - Total damage after 1 minute is 3,120
Warrior Z is fighting 5 mobs with 2WF and every 5 seconds has 10 attacks. - Total damage after 1 minute is 2,400

Might want to try using actual numbers from actual builds and fighting in realistic situations while using real DDO terminology. Just saying.

To start, a hasted 2 hander can twitch attack for more than 2 hits per second.

[Monkey_Archer]

... as the laughter trails off ...

Cleave is not dps, it situational AOE. The problem with cleave is that it takes 2-3 times longer to perform then a regular swing... maybe even 4 times longer for monks/tempest rangers/hasteboosted fighters. Which means of course, you need to hit about 3 targets (6 for a TWF) just to keep up with the dps you would do by swinging normally.

Although the math in the OP is incorrect, the basic idea is correct that you would do more damage to 5 targets using cleave then swinging normally

[hydra_ex]

because integers just don't cut it for real data!!!

:)

Complex build analysis? :p

[FuzzyDuck81]

I like cleave, but the best use i've found for it is jumping into the middle of a group of mobs with a status-effect type weapon (eg. paralysing, destruction etc) & firing it off before the "real" attacks. Handy for 2hander users, since it'll be a base attack plus glancing chance on everything & nice for monks to gain a chunk of ki for follow-up strikes.

[Thorzian]

Might want to try using actual numbers from actual builds and fighting in realistic situations while using real DDO terminology. Just saying.

To start, a hasted 2 hander can twitch attack for more than 2 hits per second.

ROFL! when has a build's dps on these boards ever used fighting in realistic situations? every rogue build's dps (especially the tempest ones) assume sneak attack for every hit against a favored enemy... while boosted! twitch builds also assume an enemy standing perfectly still while you do your thing. i have yet to see a dps calculation on these forums.. pushing 4 years now... that doesnt assume ideal situations for themselves while doing the math.

[BrotherX]

Thanks FuzzyDuck Once I get a weapon that does paralysing, destruction etc I'm sure I'll like cleave more.

[UltraMonk2]

ROFL! when has a build's dps on these boards ever used fighting in realistic situations? every rogue build's dps (especially the tempest ones) assume sneak attack for every hit against a favored enemy... while boosted! twitch builds also assume an enemy standing perfectly still while you do your thing. i have yet to see a dps calculation on these forums.. pushing 4 years now... that doesnt assume ideal situations for themselves while doing the math.

Exactly! They also fail to calculate how much dps they do when they are dead. :-)

[BrotherX]

By "slash damage" do you mean, glancing blows?

Either way, yah man you're right. All the vets who have been playing for 4 years are totally insane. Cleave is the way to go. Even Turbine knows cleave is uber because they include it in the class paths.

Go virtuoso of the sword, recommended elf, all the way.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Path:Virtuoso_of_the_Sword_(Elf_Profile)

Cleave, Great Cleave, Bastard Swords, 8 con. This is your ticket to end-game and epic content. Do it!

Yes, I meant to say glancing blows. Thanks for the correction and your sarcasm. Also just for the record...not everyone who has been playing this game for 4 years is great at it. A vets word has value but shouldn't be taken with "blind faith". Practice doesn't make perfect, Perfect practice does.

[BrotherX]

not too shabby, just the right amount of sarcasm

+1 if you gave a sh**

Agreed. A honest answer would have been great but sarcasm is the next best thing.

[BrotherX]

... as the laughter trails off ...

Cleave is not dps, it situational AOE. The problem with cleave is that it takes 2-3 times longer to perform then a regular swing... maybe even 4 times longer for monks/tempest rangers/hasteboosted fighters. Which means of course, you need to hit about 3 targets (6 for a TWF) just to keep up with the dps you would do by swinging normally.

Although the math in the OP is incorrect, the basic idea is correct that you would do more damage to 5 targets using cleave then swinging normally

Thank you much. I didn't realize a cleave attack takes longer than a normal attack.

[BrotherX]

ROFL! when has a build's dps on these boards ever used fighting in realistic situations? every rogue build's dps (especially the tempest ones) assume sneak attack for every hit against a favored enemy... while boosted! twitch builds also assume an enemy standing perfectly still while you do your thing. i have yet to see a dps calculation on these forums.. pushing 4 years now... that doesnt assume ideal situations for themselves while doing the math.

There are way too many variables to do a real calculation. Ideal situation is mobs were standing still and you hit every time you swing. No critical, no fancy weapons.

[BrotherX]

Unless you explain how you got to 3120 total damage for Warrior X, I'd say your math is off. How are you getting 260 damage every 5 seconds with Warrior X? 4 "normal attacks" by your numbers is 80 damage, 4 "slash" is another 20. How is the cleave doing 160 damage?

Warrior X scores 4 normal attacking (plus glancing) in 5 seconds = 20 damage to main target, 5 damage to other 4
Warrior X scores 1 cleave every 5 seconds = 20 to all 5 targets

[ristretto93]

In D&D I kind of like the cleave feat (nothing like in DDO), and have thought about it a bit (have even chosen it with a thf build & S&B intimitanky-type i had only to respec that feat to something else) but I don't personally have the end game experience to use with the idea...

...but consider this possible use for cleave (& maybe great cleave) and then tear my idea apart if its crappy :)

With shield using tank, intimidating the hell out of everything and only blocking, i noticed I could hit the cleave attack and hit ALOT of things while seemingly never coming out of the safe blocking position. I wasnt getting hit any more when i was making that one attack than i was when I wasnt attacking at all. So I was able to gradually wear down a whole mob of mobs without really taking any significant damage, and I have to assume those attacks from cleave just added to the hate generation I already had going with intimidate.

So again: while holding agro of large numbers of mobs via intim. and blocking I was able to actually do some dps (every 5 sec or whatever) with an attack which probably helped me to hold the agro. This is with a pure fighter so I had plenty of feats.

Is this a viable use for this feat? Not as 1st line DPS but as an agro generating attack that adds a little DPS to a fighter(or other true tank) in a blocking position when normally has little or no damage output...

[TheDjinnFor]

ROFL! when has a build's dps on these boards ever used fighting in realistic situations? every rogue build's dps (especially the tempest ones) assume sneak attack for every hit against a favored enemy... while boosted! twitch builds also assume an enemy standing perfectly still while you do your thing. i have yet to see a dps calculation on these forums.. pushing 4 years now... that doesnt assume ideal situations for themselves while doing the math.

That has little to do with what I said. Pulling random numbers out of your rear does not constitute evidence that cleave is actually useful. Equally absurd is attacking some sort of strawman of my post.

Also, it's assumed that a build tries to fight in the situations it's best in, of course, which may not be 100% of the time. Rogues do tend to get plenty of sneak attacks, however, and rangers tend to choose favored enemies around what is common in endgame, which is small enough that 4 choices generally suffice. Fighter builds tend to invest in haste boosts enough to get 5 minutes worth of burst DPS, which are still viable until the 20 minute mark. And of course, that's why Barbarians are still recognized as the most reliable form of DPS even when every boosted builds usually beat them, because it's the most long-term, non-situational DPS that exists. The key issue, and the terminology I used, was 'realistic situations'. It is quite realistic for fighter-rogue-rangers to get many sneak attacks on favored enemies while boosted in a single run, if they're playing their build right.

Being able to cleave 5 enemies at once for one minute (or even twice in a row) is not realistic by any means. Average number of targets, from my perspective, that you will be able to cleave unless you stand there for a bit and let them build up (which is a DPS loss) is barely over 1. Sure, every once in a while I'll see that second enemy pop up, and possibly a third, and guess what: Cleave is still not viable for DPS gain.

Finally, melee mobs comprise a good 75% of enemies out there, which is why 2H twitch is still relevant. In case you were complaining about that.


There are way too many variables to do a real calculation. Ideal situation is mobs were standing still and you hit every time you swing. No critical, no fancy weapons.

My apologies for being blunt, but if you take some time to make the calculations, you'll notice that you need all the variables to come to a conclusion that is actually relevant to anyone that cares. You may thing there are too many variables but the fact is that critical hits, glancing blows, fancy weapons, et cetera all contribute to DPS in different ways, and are affected differently by certain circumstances. For example: say you were comparing a 2H w/ cleave to a 2H without (why you'd compare a 2H with cleave to a 2WF without is beyond me...), and you came to a conclusion that a single cleave takes as long to do as three attacks. So, you think to yourself, you just need to hit 3 or more enemies with every cleave and you're set, right? Wrong. Glancing blows were estimated at 33% base weapon damage and a 33% chance of special weapon effects occuring. This means 3 glancing blows is the equivalent to 3 attacks. In the time of one cleave you get 3 swings (and say 3 glancing blows per swing), to a total of 6 swings worth of damage. With one cleave (equivalent in time to 3 attacks) on three enemies (with a single glancing blow on all three enemies) you get 4 attacks worth of damage. You start using real numbers and this stuff happens every time you change a single variable. I was recently comparing greataxes versus falchions on a frenzied barbarian and I added one point of base damage to the greataxes, which resulted in a 2.5 point rise in damage per swing. Figure that one out.

[Sinni]

on my 2hf fighter i had cleave and greater cleave. i loved it in lower levels where you could quickly kill whole kobold groups. i loved it in mid levels where you could jump into mob groups and paralyze them all like fuzzyduck said. i never used it in higher levels where those special effect weapons don't work anymore due to high saves. and as others said, in terms of dps it's much worse than normal attacking because the attack is so slow.

[Waukeen]

If you cleave while shield blocking it swings without breaking the block.

That being said, I've since dumped it for a TwF mode on my intimitank.

Cleave's only use is as a pre-req for frenzy berzerker.

[Orratti]

I have used cleave back to back with great cleave as a first two attacks and it's fairly nice. Really nice with a paralyzer. Unfortunately when you do this at higher levels you also gain the entire aggro of a mob that usually does enough individual damage to give you a pounding and the 5 or 6 that you just ticked off pound you into the dirt so fast that the healer only has time to notice you have taken the 1st hit before you are a nice shiny blue soulstone.

I haven't given up entirely on them though. I've been thinking about trying it on a dwarven rogue just for fun.

[Xyfiel]

I have made one build where I liked having cleave, and also whirlwind. Acrobat with fighter and monk levels. Run in, whirlwind, cleave, diplo, great cleave. Good for 300ish dps to multiple targets, but getting 4+ mobs in range like that is a pain, nor is it probably optimum dps, but it is fun. I don't really play the char much, but that is for other reasons.

[JayDubya]

Thank you much. I didn't realize a cleave attack takes longer than a normal attack.

+1 for grace under fire.

[Anderei]

I have cleave on my 12 fighter/6 Barb/2 rogue for the barbarian PrE... As a TWF build, the main use is:
Breaking Boxes :)

Other than that the only reasonable use is if you are surrounded by a big number of kobolds (yes at low lvls) you intimitated ... other than that pretty useless feat IMHO.

[Bacab]

ROFL! when has a build's dps on these boards ever used fighting in realistic situations? every rogue build's dps (especially the tempest ones) assume sneak attack for every hit against a favored enemy... while boosted! twitch builds also assume an enemy standing perfectly still while you do your thing. i have yet to see a dps calculation on these forums.. pushing 4 years now... that doesnt assume ideal situations for themselves while doing the math.

I feel this way too man. Or the DPS calculation with 15 short term potions/ and procs of an item and etc...

As I once told a buddy...we were duoing some lower lvl quest and I was on my BRD (Warchanter WF dual wielding Picks) and he was on FVS. I then told him: by myself compared to a RNG or a Barb or a FTR...we are all equal...but those **** Trollops use MY SONGS and MY HASTE to beat me...make haste a self-only spell so I can feel uber...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So what is actually wrong with cleave then?



You have to take your finger off the attack button to use it. :cool:

[8BitBanger]

I have Cleave and Great Cleave on my LVl20 2 handed Fighter and I agree its not been very useful the last couple of months. What should I respec it to? Improved Trip? the 2 weapon feats?

[Wyntermute]

Thanks i needed this.

[begbie]

I enjoy Cleave and Greater Cleave immensely...

I run into a mob.. vorpal/pg.. click my 2-3 types of cleave quickly and then proceed to beat **** down...

...if I decide to start with my Radiance Greatsword, I not only have all the aggro.. most the mobs are blind too.

Which makes the job of the happy lil squishy rogues that much easier :)

Do I care about numbers.. nope.

Why? Cuz everything comes down to grabbing aggro.. and then holding it... a good dps machine can do this with cleave...

/my2cents

[Braed]

My experience with Cleave is different from a lot of what is being said here. Cleave works best with Great Cleave and in most cases I wouldn't take Cleave unless I was going to take G. Cleave. I've worked Cleave into several different builds including an Assassin Rogue, Acrobat Rogue and a couple different non-WC Bards. The recent change to G. Cleave has really helped.

I like Cleave for spike DPS/effects. My Bards are like ADHD kids on crack. I'm in the fight, then popping off a heal or CC spell, then I'm swinging away again. In about 1.5 - 2 seconds, I often hit a dozen plus times between the two attacks. As stated earlier, this is great for paralyzers, etc. There is no faster way to apply these type of attacks over a short period of time. Cleave, unlike THF Glancing Blows, will apply AE Sneak Attacks for Rogues AND/OR backstabbing weapons.

That is the short Pollyanna side of things, here is the rest...

Animation. This is my second largest issue with the Cleave line. With a S/B I don't have any issues. Everything else is slow, from DW to Two-handed weapons. So if you have the rare build that uses a lot of S/B then you won't have an issue. It isn't as slow as it often made out to be with the other formats, but it is an issue.

My largest issue with Cleave is sustained and single target DPS. After executing Cleave and G. Cleave there are ~3 seconds before you can start the chain again. This is fine if you have something else useful to do, but if melee DPS is what you do then you are in trouble. It goes without saying, but for large boss fights/single targets it can be problematic. You're doing just over half the damage of a TWF when facing a lone target. Fortunately, my Bards have plenty to do during large boss fights.

The truth about Cleave is it the feast or famine attack line. There are some massive benefits over the other two styles and some massive drawbacks. I could fill several posts about my experience with the line with more pro's and con's. If anybody wants more information, drop me a PM.

[Chai]

When surrounded by mobs, a raging tardbarian using cleave + great cleave + supreme cleave with a +5 falchon of something something that crits X 4 on a 15 - 20 with power attack on is HUGE DAMAGE.

It has to be the right situation though.

[Club'in]

I like cleave, but the best use i've found for it is jumping into the middle of a group of mobs with a status-effect type weapon (eg. paralysing, destruction etc) & firing it off before the "real" attacks. Handy for 2hander users, since it'll be a base attack plus glancing chance on everything & nice for monks to gain a chunk of ki for follow-up strikes.

This. On my fighter I use it for curse/destruct/paralyze/shattermantle/vorpal. On my monk i'll pop it off when enough enemies are in the area so that my ki fills up faster.

[Gunga]

click my 2-3 types of cleave

This is fun. :D

[Engoril]

I have cleave and great cleave on a fighter and agree they are almost useless because of their slowness. When the mobs are clustered enough to make it worth using, the sorcerer's Wail of the Banshee is faster and so the cleave goes through empty air :)

[BrotherX]

In D&D I kind of like the cleave feat (nothing like in DDO), and have thought about it a bit (have even chosen it with a thf build & S&B intimitanky-type i had only to respec that feat to something else) but I don't personally have the end game experience to use with the idea...

...but consider this possible use for cleave (& maybe great cleave) and then tear my idea apart if its crappy :)

With shield using tank, intimidating the hell out of everything and only blocking, i noticed I could hit the cleave attack and hit ALOT of things while seemingly never coming out of the safe blocking position. I wasnt getting hit any more when i was making that one attack than i was when I wasnt attacking at all. So I was able to gradually wear down a whole mob of mobs without really taking any significant damage, and I have to assume those attacks from cleave just added to the hate generation I already had going with intimidate.

So again: while holding agro of large numbers of mobs via intim. and blocking I was able to actually do some dps (every 5 sec or whatever) with an attack which probably helped me to hold the agro. This is with a pure fighter so I had plenty of feats.

Is this a viable use for this feat? Not as 1st line DPS but as an agro generating attack that adds a little DPS to a fighter(or other true tank) in a blocking position when normally has little or no damage output...

Sounds like a good plan. I activate cleave then move around for a few seconds until it's ready again. Sorta the same.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I have Cleave and Great Cleave on my LVl20 2 handed Fighter and I agree its not been very useful the last couple of months. What should I respec it to? Improved Trip? the 2 weapon feats?

Without knowing what else you have its hard to say, but Improved Trip and Stunning blow are both fun and effective.

[8BitBanger]

Without knowing what else you have its hard to say, but Improved Trip and Stunning blow are both fun and effective.

Well mostly a standard DPS two handed based Dwarven fighter. All feats for Slash, Kensei III, Improved Crit.

[BrotherX]

That has little to do with what I said. Pulling random numbers out of your rear does not constitute evidence that cleave is actually useful. Equally absurd is attacking some sort of strawman of my post.

Also, it's assumed that a build tries to fight in the situations it's best in, of course, which may not be 100% of the time. Rogues do tend to get plenty of sneak attacks, however, and rangers tend to choose favored enemies around what is common in endgame, which is small enough that 4 choices generally suffice. Fighter builds tend to invest in haste boosts enough to get 5 minutes worth of burst DPS, which are still viable until the 20 minute mark. And of course, that's why Barbarians are still recognized as the most reliable form of DPS even when every boosted builds usually beat them, because it's the most long-term, non-situational DPS that exists. The key issue, and the terminology I used, was 'realistic situations'. It is quite realistic for fighter-rogue-rangers to get many sneak attacks on favored enemies while boosted in a single run, if they're playing their build right.

Being able to cleave 5 enemies at once for one minute (or even twice in a row) is not realistic by any means. Average number of targets, from my perspective, that you will be able to cleave unless you stand there for a bit and let them build up (which is a DPS loss) is barely over 1. Sure, every once in a while I'll see that second enemy pop up, and possibly a third, and guess what: Cleave is still not viable for DPS gain.

Finally, melee mobs comprise a good 75% of enemies out there, which is why 2H twitch is still relevant. In case you were complaining about that.



My apologies for being blunt, but if you take some time to make the calculations, you'll notice that you need all the variables to come to a conclusion that is actually relevant to anyone that cares. You may thing there are too many variables but the fact is that critical hits, glancing blows, fancy weapons, et cetera all contribute to DPS in different ways, and are affected differently by certain circumstances. For example: say you were comparing a 2H w/ cleave to a 2H without (why you'd compare a 2H with cleave to a 2WF without is beyond me...), and you came to a conclusion that a single cleave takes as long to do as three attacks. So, you think to yourself, you just need to hit 3 or more enemies with every cleave and you're set, right? Wrong. Glancing blows were estimated at 33% base weapon damage and a 33% chance of special weapon effects occuring. This means 3 glancing blows is the equivalent to 3 attacks. In the time of one cleave you get 3 swings (and say 3 glancing blows per swing), to a total of 6 swings worth of damage. With one cleave (equivalent in time to 3 attacks) on three enemies (with a single glancing blow on all three enemies) you get 4 attacks worth of damage. You start using real numbers and this stuff happens every time you change a single variable. I was recently comparing greataxes versus falchions on a frenzied barbarian and I added one point of base damage to the greataxes, which resulted in a 2.5 point rise in damage per swing. Figure that one out.

I see your point about using actual cases instead of stick figures. I was trying to figure this out on paper so I wouldn't have to go the trial and error route and pay Fred a bunch of money.

[BrotherX]

I have made one build where I liked having cleave, and also whirlwind. Acrobat with fighter and monk levels. Run in, whirlwind, cleave, diplo, great cleave. Good for 300ish dps to multiple targets, but getting 4+ mobs in range like that is a pain, nor is it probably optimum dps, but it is fun. I don't really play the char much, but that is for other reasons.

That does sound like a lot of fun. Unfortunately these little buggers move around too much or can dish out a lot of damage themselves.

[Kaldaka]

You want good dps?:


... I activate cleave then move around for a few seconds until it's ready again ...

Don't do this ... :D

Jump in middle of mobs, hit cleave/great cleave and then swing away not worrying about the timer for it again, that would be viable dps. why?

This:

You have to take your finger off the attack button to use it. :cool:

[BrotherX]

This. On my fighter I use it for curse/destruct/paralyze/shattermantle/vorpal. On my monk i'll pop it off when enough enemies are in the area so that my ki fills up faster.

Hmmmm....a roundhouse kick that knocks the taste out of 5 oppenants mouths? I'm rolling a monk.

[BrotherX]

+1 for grace under fire.

I've been trolling the boards for 6 months and only activated my account the day I made this post. Some people will bait and then flame you just for kicks if you let them.