Ddo Is Too Hard

[Bacab]

Originally I was responding in a thread to this thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=233139

And I felt it was necessary to vent some frustration. Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

It led to this post paraphrased in regards to broken builds/then Froobs complaining about how "hard the game is"

It is typically:
Hi, I am a new player...with 28 pt build or drow (which makes them think they know what they are doing)...started playing 2 weeks ago. I want to nuke and heal so here is my build : 11 Favored Soul/5 SOR / 4 Wizard.

Notice that this build lacks heal/blade barrier and haste/fireball from the arcane side. It also has a job that you can buy (FVS) or earn with 2500 favor. Well this is where I get confused. If you want to buy FVS, thats fine and cool, but also buy 32 pt build. If you do not want to buy FVS...well you will earn 32 pt build BEFORE you earn FVS.

But long story short, what you get is really broken build that can not do anything at all. So then there are posts made (by vets) that such build will not work...so then the poster then says "what if I have 6 months worth of greensteel items and 50 mill worth of other assorted gear and extremely rare raid drops...it will THEN work . Well if you have those resources and skill...then YOU can make such a build work. But you are then successful INSPITE of your build...not BECAUSE of your build. Another fun thing to see is the typical build with 6 +4 tomes and extremely rare gear AND then it has to be a TRed twice toon...to work.

I could see Shade, ANthios, MaddMatt etc... running a SOR with 16 Total CHR and meleeing stuff and due to their Resources and skill...They could make it work. But such things are not recommended to "new players".

I played this game when it first came out, and then took like a 2 year break...then came back. It saddens me to see people (new players) make broken builds then complain to Turbine that the "GAME IS TOO HARD" since thier toon can not complete anything. Then Turbine rewards the "Froob" with an "easy button".

It just is hard for me to stomach this and watch the best MMO out there (have played most of them) get ruined by people unwilling to listen/learn from more experienced people.

[Zereth501]

You may want to change the title to "character building is too complicated". DDO is not hard. Otherwise, I think you're right. The default builds could be a lot better, and there should be in game advices on character building.

[Atenhotep]

I've been playing D&D since 1980. What got me started was a friend's older brother had been interested in this weird game called Dungeons & Dragons and when I asked him about it he said I wasn't smart enough to understand. Oh, it was on!

I've been playing D&D so long I completely forget that it might actually be hard to understand. Is it possible the rest of us playing DDO are looking at it from a similar perspective?

BTW: I don't have experience with any other MMO (though lately I have been interested enough in the new star wars MMO to at least check it out when it's released) so I really have nothing to compare to. Is DDO really so much more difficult than another MMO, like WOW for example?

Aten

[Kriogen]

It's easy to make a mistake (as easy as in any game), but the problem is, its **** hard to fix those mistakes.

There's nothing wrong making a mistake when creating a new character. It's how it is, it's how you learn. Noone is born as allknowning hardcore vet. The problem is that it's hard and super expensive to fix mistakes. This is the main dark side of DDO.

Make respec/reincarnate easier/cheaper, not quests.

[Atenhotep]

BTW: This one sentence I don't agree with:


It just is hard for me to stomach this and watch the best MMO out there (have played most of them) get ruined by people unwilling to listen/learn from more experienced people.

I just don't know where these people are who won't listen. I have Aten's Raid Train - 5 raids in a row, 2x/week. It's not a guild thing, its a LFM PUG fill and I'll take anybody. I only need a few slots filled with experienced players while we teach the others. Seriously .. never had a problem, never a failure.

(Talking about, in this order - ADQ1 (2 groups) - DQ2 - Reaver - Hound - VOD - Titan.)

With as many new players we have and as many times as I do this it seems I might have encountered at least one of these new players who will not listen?

Now, to be fair I have felt some frustration but to further my point that frustration came back to being my responsibility.

It was Titan. We once had a wizard parked in the Sub for over 30 minutes (with an already full group) just teleporting people back and forth because "Repair your Sigil" just wasting sinking through. I pinpointed my errors in leadership though, tightened up my command and it didn't happen again.

The point I'm making is, I believe that when properly approached and when they trust the word of their leader they (these new players) do in fact listen.

JMO.

[Sinni]

BTW: I don't experience with any other MMO (though lately I have been interested enough in the new star wars MMO to at least check it out when it's released) so I really have nothing to compare to. Is DDO really so much more difficult than another MMO, like WOW for example?

Aten

Yes, in other MMOs you can't irreparably gimp your character. a simple respec can always solve it. now that we have lesser/greater reincarnations you can correct skill and attribute mistakes and feat respec is also easier now (was possible before, but you had to do it feat by feat, so for a complete overhaul it was not really an option). so in that term DDO made quite a step, but the wrong multiclassing can still completely gimp your char and i don't consider multiple +3 reincarnations to fix that a useable solution, nor do i consider tr being that.

and in other games even if you screw your character up it will never be as bad as a screwed up DDO char. this problem comes with the huge customizability you have in DDO, which is a really great feature.

[uhgungawa]

I'd say let them mess up and learn, but nobody would let them in a group and so not learn.:confused: But if we razz them like we were razzed when we started... BOOOOM.... the powers that be come down on us. So my only advice to people is...

Once again we interrupt this thread for the MANDATED TURBINE FORUM MESSAGE


/HUG NOOB


Now back to your regularly scheduled thread

;)

[Bacab]

what I meant was...

I am tired of people not listening to veteran players...dieing all the time...playing broken toons...then obviously failing...

THEN...they complain about how hard the game is...and for some reason Turbine rewards those individuals.

How come Turbine complies with these tired WoW re-treads?

HAY I WANT E-Z GAME GIMME...why must the rest of the game be watered down?

I understand that you DONT HAVE to play with those people (unless you pug) but I mean, at what point can we say enough is enough?

Do a random search on these forums and count the number of extremely weird/horrid builds. Now its ok to make a build. But when people then defend their builds and take the "I am taking my ball and going home attitude". We are supposed to feel bad for them.

Oh yeah Aten, this MMO is "harder" than other MMOs. And that is a VERY GOOD thing. WoW is too easy. Square Enix (FFXI) hates its customer base. Warhammer and Guild Wars lack end game. DDO is incredible (combat system is so active and interesting) and the quest are not kill "X" creatures then turn in "Y" drops to an NPC for a reward.

I love DDO and I just fear that things may/are getting too easy and what made the game exciting is being removed.

[blitzschlag]

imo the main problem is that you can throw money at a broken char and fix/semi fix it. back in the day the only way to play a broken char was in closed friend/guild groups where they pulled your weight or to reroll. through rerolling you got to know the game and the quests better. throwing money at it does not help at all

[Eugel]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

[toughguyjoe]

BTW: This one sentence I don't agree with:



I just don't know where these people are who won't listen. I have Aten's Raid Train - 5 raids in a row, 2x/week. It's not a guild thing, its a LFM PUG fill and I'll take anybody. I only need a few slots filled with experienced players while we teach the others. Seriously .. never had a problem, never a failure.

(Talking about, in this order - ADQ1 (2 groups) - DQ2 - Reaver - Hound - VOD - Titan.)

With as many new players we have and as many times as I do this it seems I might have encountered at least one of these new players who will not listen?

Now, to be fair I have felt some frustration but to further my point that frustration came back to being my responsibility.

It was Titan. We once had a wizard parked in the Sub for over 30 minutes (with an already full group) just teleporting people back and forth because "Repair your Sigil" just wasting sinking through. I pinpointed my errors in leadership though, tightened up my command and it didn't happen again.

The point I'm making is, I believe that when properly approached and when they trust the word of their leader they (these new players) do in fact listen.

JMO.


This kid heard Kistilan was leaving and is campaigning to take his place as HarborMaster of Stormreach!

Remember people, it all rests on the star! You need a strong person to have the Star in your group, or everything will go to pot! The Leader is EVERYTHING!

[toughguyjoe]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.


Who says you have to win on the first run of every adventure? Isn't some of the fun going in, losing, and coming back better prepared to defeat your old nemesis?

[Spisey]

The Leader is EVERYTHING!

Or rather is a nothing in most of our runs! **** pikers! I thought that was the reason to have the star? Pike until something bad happens, then cuss at the person at fault, reform quest without said person, and have something to talk about for the next two raids! :D

Nick, Blah or Alejo, you out there???? :p

[DarkFlash]

...and Guild Wars lack end game....

You must be joking!

[RATRACE931]

I'd l;ove to see the game go back to the good ole days where a Death acconted in XP loss based on your level. If these idiots who refuse to listen to some1 whos been here for 4 years just because they've "Done this quest 9 times" or "I saw this same build own Storm Cleave at lvl 12" had to deal with lossing XP everytime their advice asking but no listenning butts died then, maybe, they'd have to rethink their broke builds just like we did once upon a time. The point is they are US 4 years ago but instead of us changing for the game the game is changing for them.

[RATRACE931]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

I can't disagree more, whats wrong with aving to put actual THOUGHT into a build? This is a D&D based game, i'm not sure about you but I always put a ton of thought into my characters and this is downplayed quite a bit from that. Also i absolutly do NOT want to beat a brand new quest i have no idea about the first time i step into it. The reason most vets still remember Church and the Cult or Elite Tempest Spine or Titan is because they took so LONG for us to be able to beat them consistantly.

[toughguyjoe]

Pike until something bad happens, then cuss at the person at fault, reform quest without said person, and have something to talk about for the next two raids! :D


NOW THAT....

Is a true Leader.

[Atenhotep]

Pike until something bad happens, then cuss at the person at fault, reform quest without said person, and have something to talk about for the next two raids!

What this reminds me of most is Reaver. Basically you have a few people do the raid and the rest stand around. And if the guy doing the puzzle (because nobody else knows how to do it) fails then the pikers get to ***** and moan.

(BTW: I can't do the puzzle so I always get somebody to do it .. but in my defense I'm colorblind)

[Bacab]

You must be joking!

Played Guild Wars a long time ago...maybe its changed (like 2005 or 2006?)

[Bacab]

What this reminds me of most is Reaver. Basically you have a few people do the raid and the rest stand around. And if the guy doing the puzzle (because nobody else knows how to do it) fails then the pikers get to ***** and moan.

(BTW: I can't do the puzzle so I always get somebody to do it .. but in my defense I'm colorblind)

Taking the easy way out!

j/k lol A buddy of mine is color blind (red/greed) so when we play PnP DnD i use red and green markers to show spell AoEs and etc just to mess with him.

[Atenhotep]

I'd l;ove to see the game go back to the good ole days where a Death acconted in XP loss based on your level. .

I'm flexible on many things but the loss of XP for everyone in a group because of one ... um .. person .. is one thing that isn't sitting well with me.

At the very least the need to fix that. When I'm power-leveling a TR it makes my runs very strict and I can become a major a-hole.

(But yeah, I prefer the old days of having a real consequence to dying. But we all knew what would happen when they changed that, right? And it has only become easier and easier since then).

[Spisey]

(BTW: I can't do the puzzle so I always get somebody to do it .. but in my defense I'm colorblind)


Um yeah that is as good a reason any! :p That does explain why I never saw you in the Khyber Reaver puzzle thread. :D

[Eugel]

I can't disagree more, whats wrong with aving to put actual THOUGHT into a build? This is a D&D based game, i'm not sure about you but I always put a ton of thought into my characters and this is downplayed quite a bit from that. Also i absolutly do NOT want to beat a brand new quest i have no idea about the first time i step into it. The reason most vets still remember Church and the Cult or Elite Tempest Spine or Titan is because they took so LONG for us to be able to beat them consistantly.

I think a lot about building my characters too, but my point was that you need to know certain things at character creation that you can´t possibly know before you played the game for a long time. And that makes the game difficult for new players, not the number of hit points a monster has, or the damage it does.

Personally, I don´t mind losing a new quest for a couple of times before I beat it. That´s what I meant earlier. I like to find that out for myself.
But a lot of other people don´t think so. You read it on the forum every day. People get upset when others are unprepared for a quest. What do you think how many people will put you on their friends lists, when you enter church and the cult without a silver or holy weapon ? Or it even starts earlier in the game, when you face trolls and don´t have an acid or flaming weapon ?

In my example, I play a rogue. I do a quest for the first time, so i don´t know where all the traps are, and don´t know the DC of those traps, so maybe I´m not able to disarm one. How many groups will say "Ah, never mind, we died, but the next time, you will know better" In 90% of the cases there will be no "next time" with this group...

[Runaway]

I've never played d&d tabletop games and my forum joindate is the actual time when I first started playing DDO.

I have never made a critical mistake when making any of my characters. I never lay out a detailed plan from level 1 to 20, only with multiclasses I have a rough idea of when I will take which classes and feats. With some characters I was more happy than others, some required a bit more gear & resources to perform well, but none were ever permanently botched. Both my favorite characters are right now to squishy to take into some content, but nothing irrepairable.

If I face a tough choice where what next to do isn't completely clear, I ask for advice. Questions are usually answered correctly in the advice channel and usually players also motivate why they would make a certain choice.

My only difficulties were when some items/skills/feats didn't work as advertized or were simply not very relevant in the game. So on some of my characters my skill allocation is usually hardly perfect :)

If a first time player can make characters of all classes (many of which were multiclasses) without ever making a critical mistake, it would mean that character creation is sufficiently clear. The compendium has all the most relevant information under the "Game Info" dropdown list. In game the items, spells, feats, ... all generally do what their description says as well.

For me, making a good character comes down to reading comprehension and the ability to take advice.




When I see what "mistakes" some people make, I can only think: "serves you right".

An example that I once saw in the harbor advice channel:
(not literally, but just representing the flow of the discussion)

Fighter4: I want to make a fighting mage. Is it ok if I leave my path to make a multiclass fighter/wizard?
Many others: Don't multiclass unless you planned it out beforehand, you risk breaking your character.

Half an hour later:
Fighter4/wizard1: I learned some spells in the tavern, but the game won't let me cast them?
The others: ...

So he didn't even look up the 2 classes that he wanted to multiclass in the compendium and he ignored any advice that was given to him. Because it looked good... I don't think the game should be turned into a kindergarten just to protect a few obstinate people from their own mistakes.



I do agree that the predefined paths should be better. There will always be people that just want to jump in and play. I hate having to tell these people to steer clear from the Turbine pre-defined paths and to level some pre-defined player created path instead.

[Atenhotep]

I have never made a critical mistake when making any of my characters.

After more than 3 years I still make mistakes. What's your secret? :)

[DarkFlash]

Played Guild Wars a long time ago...maybe its changed (like 2005 or 2006?)

If you only played prophecies campaign I understand. Its the korthos island of GW.

EDIT: GW taught me how to build characters.
rule No.1 of making characters: NEVER make a silly "Funky-smiter-ranger". (= same as wiz-cleric-ranger)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

While I understand where you're coming from you've got to understand that without these froobs there may not be a DDO at all.

Keeping them around is keeping the game around.

I used to pug 90% of the time but now I'm either solo or I'm guild/people I know only.

[Runaway]

After more than 3 years I still make mistakes. What's your secret? :)Never level up while being intoxicated!

Actually, I always take my time when doing a level up where choices have to be made. So if I'm on a caster in a team, I usually wait till the next day to speak to the trainer.

I also still make some mistakes, just nothing that cannot be repaired. My first bard that I made in october 2009 only started raising umd at level 7. A mistake, but nothing critical.
My favorite race so far is elves (I have a nice scimitar collection by now) and I tend to end up too squishy at certain levels. Mostly because I always end up postponing toughness for more damage early on :D. Again, nothing that will not work itself out in the end.

I also already know that none of my current characters will be epic-proof, but imo that has more to do with the dumbed down on/off design of the epic missions that with mistakes on my part.

[Poffel]

Well, simply put, we need Hint 387: Do not multiclass unless you know exactly what you're doing.

[Kriogen]

Well, simply put, we need Hint 387: Do not multiclass unless you know exactly what you're doing.
Pfft, I R smart. No stupid computars gonna tell what to do! :p

Not all people 'read' :D

[CSFurious]

you are not supposed to win every time in this game

there is satisfication in learning from your mistakes

unfortunately, many have forgotten this or are sore losers


Who says you have to win on the first run of every adventure? Isn't some of the fun going in, losing, and coming back better prepared to defeat your old nemesis?

[Atenhotep]

reasonable input

I guess what I was saying in my own sarcastic way .. and I don't mean any offense to you personally .. is that I feel your statement about character creation is flawed but it takes some time to realize it.

I mean, you aren't making gimp toons which is great, but to say you aren't making any mistakes is something I read as you saying your character builds are all perfect.

I'm pretty sure we're all still looking for that perfect build. I just don't know that any of us here are at the point of not wanting a bit more out of our build.

My TR Caster is a 3 year old toon with a ton of gear and he still isn't the perfection I'm looking for in a caster. The way to fix that would be to go Warforged but I really can't stand playing a WF (just a personal taste) as it feels like the Casual Mode of character creation, for me anyway.

My Monk/Cleric is pretty close to being perfect but I'll need to TR again .. (maybe even next as a wizzy for the Past Life bonuses) and with a 36 point including the Wizzy Past Life I'll be sitting comfortably .. but thats a heck of a lot of work when frankly, Summer is around the corner and I should be getting some exercise.

[parvo]

Two years off... Does that make you a Voob? Or a Foob?

























Veteran/Noob
Founder/Noob

[MeliCat]

I do agree that the predefined paths should be better. There will always be people that just want to jump in and play. I hate having to tell these people to steer clear from the Turbine pre-defined paths and to level some pre-defined player created path instead.

Have you forgotten there is all those predefined paths on start up? THey are a great way to just jump in and start. How are you even going to know what you want to do/be without a little bit of a taste of stuff? Who cares if someone makes a fighter sorc at level 5 anyway? A great way to learn and to make people sit up is "oh. it doesn't work. that person who TOLD me it wouldn't work was right. i'll listen more closely next time".

You just hope they do it at level 5 though. Rather than 15.

And yes this game *is* hard. And my guildies get impatient with me so that I'm almost in tears sometimes. And there are these great... pauses... sometimes when questing and I ask a question. And these ... pauses ... let me know that I've just asked something really stupidly obvious... well to them anyway.

Ya know... i'm used to a game with big numbers yeah? So as I level the numbers get bigger. This is cool - numbers are getting bigger therefore it's better/more damage/more heal/faster/whatever. But here even those little numbers matter. Eg: It's only plus 1 ... but it STACKS. DDO has a subtle intricacy to it that is both beautiful but astonishingly complicated. And the vets forget that sometimes.

I don't want it dumbed down. I don't even want sympathy. I will try to hide my "stupidity" and watch and learn.

But I do fully understand why a lot of people go "it's too hard", throw their hands up and leave.

I think you should warn people before they try it... that way they come expecting it and either enjoy the challenge, or at least are warned it will take a while.

(And what's with the air ele nerf? Oh man. Yeah I whinged with the occasional throw but this is now just silly..)

[Zippo]

.. but thats a heck of a lot of work when frankly, Summer is around the corner and I should be getting some exercise.

Ahhhh ****! I have to agree with you on this one. I've managed to get a bit fluffy this winter and I need to do the same thing

[Sinni]

I mean, you aren't making gimp toons which is great, but to say you aren't making any mistakes is something I read as you saying your character builds are all perfect.

I'm pretty sure we're all still looking for that perfect build. I just don't know that any of us here are at the point of not wanting a bit more out of our build.


He only said he didn't make critical errors, which i read as "i haven't completely gimped any of my characters"

[Runaway]

@atenhotep

I said "critical mistakes" in the part you quoted. I make a difference between small mistakes and mistakes that would warrant an immediate reroll or an eventual ressurection. I would think that saying that I have never made a "critical mistake" also implies that I still make small mistakes.

[Bacab]

Two years off... Does that make you a Voob? Or a Foob?

Veteran/Noob
Founder/Noob

Not sure what it made me. I did not come back due to F2P (VIP here). I finally got a computer that could handle the game a LOT better. Also a buddy of mine came back with me (he had some money issues so I am paying for his account). We talked about it a lot when I was not playing. I was a FFXI junkie and finally quit that game. DDO is a LOT more fun to me. I love the questiong system and the character build system.

Also back when I played the lvl cap was lvl 10...I had a fully capped DROW SOR (hate drow) with a 25 DEX for my ray spells and their accuracy...(yeah yeah I know). I still will not delete him...he is a reminder to me of how this game is different from PnP DnD.

Also in those two years I got licensed for CT Scan, became a body-builder, bought a house, landed an amazing girlfriend and grew up a lot. In no way am I saying that game playing = immaturity. I just know that back when I played FFXI about 6 hours a day...my real life suffered. I now understand moderation.

While I was away, I did talk about DDO a lot and peruse the forums (never posted though since I was not playing). I stayed very much interested in it.

As far as the frustration, DDO has an easy button now. Curses are not permanent, no death XP penalty..etc etc
DDO certainly is one of the fastest MMOs to reach "max" level. Takes much longer in FFXI (thats not a good thing for FFXI). Also in DDO...its actually fun to xp and level up.

But was far as VOOB or FOOB (not sure what FOOB is), I think it is more of a mindset/attitude. Smart players observe other players and learn from them. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the 2 week player who tells Shade : "U DUNT NO NETHING BOUT BARBARIAN" or tells Anthios : "UR BULD IS TEH WURSE". Newer players (less established if you will) should go out of their way to learn from the TRUE vets (not saying I am a true vet).

[platonicx]

Go play hello kitty !!! online please its easy.

[Atenhotep]

@atenhotep

I said "critical mistakes" in the part you quoted. I make a difference between small mistakes and mistakes that would warrant an immediate reroll or an eventual ressurection. I would think that saying that I have never made a "critical mistake" also implies that I still make small mistakes.

Ah! My error. Sorry for my bad Engrish. ;)

I have in mind my caster btw. I mean he's a 20th lvl TR 34 point build without any real mistakes but I see him as being critically flawed because I still can't use Heal Scrolls with 100% accuracy. :)

[gott_ist_tot]

The new player logs in to forums. The new player sees a lot of hate against
predefined builds. The new player starts his own toon. The new player loses.

Fix the predefined builds!

The new player clicks the LFM for Tear of Dhakkan. The new player
does not need to read what gott_ist_tot says about shrine accessibility
and the mob spawning room. The new player loses.

Fix the new player!

Actually, I found myself posting Tear LFM's. I got used to them not
listening to me, I have a shrine/village rant ready to copy/paste.
I *love* when after a wipe they join a few days later, and this time behave.


But some just won't listen. We can just hope they're not in the majority.
If they are, DDO is going to be dumbed down more and more.

If all that is needed to access VoN5 is running 1-4 once then why
in the Earth getting blown/telekine(ted?) in Orphne doesn't make you lose?
I probaby hate this one Update3 thing the most. It's a sign of bad changes.

[MeliCat]

DDO certainly is one of the fastest MMOs to reach "max" level.


But max level is kind of meaningless anyway here really isn't it? It's the items and the twinking... and the character creation. Items which take months.

(except to vets who have all the ing :-/)


Cool that you have both a)some space in your RL and b)someone in RL to play with.



I have a work colleague I was asking questions of as I've never played an MMO before. Told him he may not like it 'cos lots of WOW players find it too hard. Ha! Gauntlet thrown. His third and main toon is level 9. He'll probably be a better played than I too.

[Zippo]

But was far as VOOB or FOOB (not sure what FOOB is), I think it is more of a mindset/attitude.

VOOB vs FROOB:

VOOB = a vet who has been gone for a year or two due to real life (As it turns out there is such a thing. Who knew!), money issues, etc and decided to come back paying his $15 a month but due to the changes in game since then might be a bit behind the power curve

FROOB can be 1 of a few things. FROOB in this case could be a returning vet who came back because they went Free to Play or a new person to the game who is here because the game went Free to Play and in both cases typically not paying anything to play.

Seems as though you would be a VOOB based on the post I quoted

[elricken]

I have been playing since midsummer, (don't believe the join date, different account) and I really really enjoy this game. One of the reasons is the amount of thought you have to put into your builds. This came as no adjustment to me as I came over from D2 which I played for years. The same rules apply, know what you are doing when you roll your character (took me awhile to learn the importance of the vitality stat), and only make advanced builds when you really know what you are doing. My curiosity is then how is the game becoming easier as opposed to the "good old days"? It still seems to me that you really only have a couple of choices when you screw up a build, either TR (at a spanking xp load), lesser tr, or reroll completely. Not really easy considering you have to spend like 20 bucks or grind epic quests for a TR. Of course I am a cheapass and hate paying more than the minimum for anything, so yes 20 bucks is painful at least to me. Those consequences seem enough I wouldn't want it to be all that hard to fix/remake your toon, especially coming from Diablo where there was no respec and unless you had tons of experience in fast grinding xp you would spends months leveling up again (99 max levels to be acheived, it takes insane effort).

Edit: I know my post is messy and semi non-linear but I had lot of thoughts on this thread and am afraid it might have come out a bit jumbled so bear with.

[MeliCat]

I have been playing since midsummer, (don't believe the join date, different account) and I really really enjoy this game. One of the reasons is the amount of thought you have to put into your builds. This came as no adjustment to me as I came over from D2 which I played for years. The same rules apply, know what you are doing when you roll your character (took me awhile to learn the importance of the vitality stat),

Woot! Yeah the D2 likeness is what got me in. I have a number of RL friends who would *love* DDO for this very reason - but they have no time. (And one is a social recluse... I have to convince him that yes, you can solo almost all of this and he *might* play...)

I used to like being an enchantress and running around behind a necromancer... that was cool. Funny how I like playing my bard here. :)

[elricken]

Woot! Yeah the D2 likeness is what got me in. I have a number of RL friends who would *love* DDO for this very reason - but they have no time. (And one is a social recluse... I have to convince him that yes, you can solo almost all of this and he *might* play...)

I used to like being an enchantress and running around behind a necromancer... that was cool. Funny how I like playing my bard here. :)

I never did make an enchantress, seemed like if would be fun as hell to listen to your group as the sorc melees things down :).

[krud]

I kind of enjoy all the froobishness that is going around. It reminds me what it was like when I joined in 2006. Lots of newbs/noobs, plenty of lfms on the board, populated servers, etc. I take it as a sign that the game is being refreshed. It's been so long since we've had shenanigans like we now see. People were getting so accustomed to flawless runs without any newbs/noobs around that things were getting quite stale, imo. Let them learn as we did. At least they can reincarnate their mistakes now.

[MeliCat]

I never did make an enchantress, seemed like if would be fun as hell to listen to your group as the sorc melees things down :).

:) I play with an intimi sorc sometimes (Khyber). That almost qualifies.

(I feel so redundant playing with 2nd TR vets who know everything about the game... but I do learn heaps... )

[SlayerInFlorida]

You may want to change the title to "character building is too complicated". DDO is not hard. Otherwise, I think you're right. The default builds could be a lot better, and there should be in game advices on character building.

Great point - make the default builds better and there will be less complaining.

[MeliCat]

I kind of enjoy all the froobishness that is going around. It reminds me what it was like when I joined in 2006. Lots of newbs/noobs, plenty of lfms on the board, populated servers, etc. I take it as a sign that the game is being refreshed. It's been so long since we've had shenanigans like we now see. People were getting so accustomed to flawless runs without any newbs/noobs around that things were getting quite stale, imo. Let them learn as we did. At least they can reincarnate their mistakes now.

yay! nice to have a positive post on newbie silliness... +1 to you


Occasionally when I pug I put in the lfm "TRs not allowed" or "TRs please be non self-sufficient". How am I going to learn to properly heal in chaos otherwise?

And sometimes I'm running with a vet and they'll apologise that a quest has taken 40mins instead of 20mins - huh? Do you have any idea how wonderful it is to learn things slowly, explore a bit and *enjoy* *the* *view*? Vets forget. :P


A sense of fun is definitely needed in *whatever* part of the game... And I'm grateful to my guildies who just find it funny each time I die - or I declare at the end of a quest "Please note that I did NOT die that time..."

[JOTMON]

It's easy to make a mistake (as easy as in any game), but the problem is, its **** hard to fix those mistakes.

There's nothing wrong making a mistake when creating a new character. It's how it is, it's how you learn. Noone is born as allknowning hardcore vet. The problem is that it's hard and super expensive to fix mistakes. This is the main dark side of DDO.

Make respec/reincarnate easier/cheaper, not quests.


I think we have all been here
..DDO was just PnP/DnD computerized..right.....
Soon discovered not all was as it seems.


TR/LR gives you an opportunity to fix a lot of core problems, most build problems can be compensated with gear, and if it doesnt look like its fixable or worth levelling up, you can allways use another storage toon.

My first toon out of the gate was a 28pt Trapmonkey Rogue with lots of int and hardly any con, no money with jaw dropped looking at AH prices for rapiers. Specced all the trap feats and enhancements. Never had to try twice on any trap, but I was squishy too squishy, add some ranger/fighter levels, even considered wizzy splash for some minor arcane stuff... etc etc.. thinking back to the old PnP stuff as a kid. I balanced him out as I levelled(12Rog/6Ran/2Ftr), and he became a decent toon, TR1 made some changes (12Ran/6Mon/2Rog)and some more trial and error, looking at TR2 to change some more stuff around..Great thing about this game is we can just keep changing stuff, or build another toon and try something else.

[Happosaai]

BTW: I don't have experience with any other MMO (though lately I have been interested enough in the new star wars MMO to at least check it out when it's released) so I really have nothing to compare to. Is DDO really so much more difficult than another MMO, like WOW for example?

Aten

Yes, DDO is a lot harder than a lot of the other MMOs out there. Especially WoW... I'm a recovering WoW addict who came back to DDO with some friends.

In WoW, you can turn auto-attack on and walk away from the computer... not die and level your character. I've done this...

[pSINNa]

you are not supposed to win every time in this game

there is satisfication in learning from your mistakes

unfortunately, many have forgotten this or are sore losers

Hurrah! Thank god someone agree's with me on this. One of the most satisfying moments in my recent gaming history has been to finally give Sorjek a dose of his own medicine. The two previous failed attempts to wipe him and his mephits from the face of the earth only served to fuel my drive to beat him into submission. Having an all guild group support me in my drive for revenge, cheering me on as i finally satisfied my vindictive bloodlust will always stick out in my mind as a premier gaming moment :)

In regards to the 'broken builds' and the 'froobs' that play them, each toon i've built has had some purpose in mind, and not all of them have been suitable for top end raid use.

That being said, not all my ddo time is spent in top end raids, each of them has been useful in some way, shape or form, even if that is for a very narrow area or type of quest in the game, and each one has taught me something about the game.

I will echo a sentiment i've seen in this thread to this extent, let the game change the way you play, NOT vice versa please.

Ghallanda Server: Revelationz: Coitfluff, Coitrippr, Coitburner, Coitshredder, Coithealz, Luciforge, Rosecannon

[MeliCat]

I carefully make sure that any toon I work on is going to be suitable for end game.


But I don't really have the items yet (or the confidence) to run them up there yet.




Oh yeah... and +1 to the OP for correct use of "too" rather than "to" in the title.

/grammar niggler gets back in their closet...

[ghostegg]

Focus. DDO is more a party game than a solo game. Some builds can solo many quests maybe all, using a party as peons not as partners, but most design to be a eficient in party and have fun and respect for it.

[LordPiglet]

It's easy to make a mistake (as easy as in any game), but the problem is, its **** hard to fix those mistakes.

There's nothing wrong making a mistake when creating a new character. It's how it is, it's how you learn. Noone is born as allknowning hardcore vet. The problem is that it's hard and super expensive to fix mistakes. This is the main dark side of DDO.

Make respec/reincarnate easier/cheaper, not quests.

QFT

I played PnP D&D and play another MMO. This other one we can respec with ease. I've directed a couple other people to try DDO but warm then to check the forums and read around about the classes and build first.

You can do feat exchanges, you can do your enhancements, but the only way to redo your skills is through a lesser or greater heart. I would be much happier if there was a free lesser heart awarded via a quest or some way to just redo skills.

[KKDragonLord]

I would be much happier if there was a free lesser heart awarded via a quest or some way to just redo skills.

maybe by giving Fred a mate called Frida who would accept syberis or khyber shards to respec skillsz

[Club'in]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

I would really like to respectfully disagree with this assessment. Yes, it's harsh. But my oldest character (a drow ranger who is now a ranger/monk) has been through 3 level cap bumps, and pretty much 4 complete course changes throughout her lifetime. When the level cap was ten, we could get away with low con characters. But starting with the Restless Isles release, and the Desert, her low con really started to present problems. Then they released the Deepwoods Sniper PRE, at the same time as a level cap bump, so I respec'd her to try it out. It totally sucked, so she stayed parked for a while until I could gain the shards and the plat to swap out a ton of feats in order to pick up Tempest. Then things totally changed again, new stuff came out, new possibilities, new roadblocks (the Minos helm lost it's Toughness ability, which forced me to come up with a plan to pick up the feat). Consequently I ended up spending her last ability point on Intelligence, ate a +2 Intel tome, and used two monk levels to add a ton of AC, Combat Expertise and Toughness, Level 18 feat to add Oversized Two Weapon fighting (which of course didn't even exist, none of this stuff did, when the character was originally rolled up). You do not have to completely plan out your character through level 20 before even starting the game. Major exaggeration there.

And why are people so afraid of failing a quest the first time through? Yes, sometimes you meet an insurmountable barrier because of your party mix or what not. So try again! Learn, adapt, overcome. yeeesh

[Club'in]

After more than 3 years I still make mistakes. What's your secret? :)

He admitted to making mistakes, but didn't consider any of them to be character breakers. That's all he was saying.

[Visty]

VOOB vs FROOB:

VOOB = a vet who has been gone for a year or two due to real life (As it turns out there is such a thing. Who knew!), money issues, etc and decided to come back paying his $15 a month but due to the changes in game since then might be a bit behind the power curve

FROOB can be 1 of a few things. FROOB in this case could be a returning vet who came back because they went Free to Play or a new person to the game who is here because the game went Free to Play and in both cases typically not paying anything to play.

Seems as though you would be a VOOB based on the post I quoted

he said FOOB, not FROOB

[ahpook]

I don´t think the gameplay is really harder than in other games.

But I have to agree that the character building is too hard, or too complicated.
Personally, I don´t like to study forums before I can even try to play for myself, nor do I like to copy some character build everyone thinks best.
I like to find out stuff for myself. I like to try out what works for me and what doesn´t.
And this doesn´t work in this game.
You have to plan your character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 before you even log in for the first time. If you are no expert on character builds, you will probably build a character which is of little to no use in end game.

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

I couldn't disagree more (but for different reasons than RATRACE).

As long as you are not trying too get to fancy, you can just start your character up and learn as you go. My first character was a rogue, I rolled him up as a dex based so I could use short bows effectively and ignored UMD. A few levels in I realized that there were some bad choices so I changed a couple of feats and started putting points into UMD. By the time I hit the cap at 14 he had max ranks in UMD and translated that ranged idea into TWF. He was always playable. All the way to level 20 as a 28 pt build.

I had no idea what I was doing except that I shouldn't try to do too much.

The problem with froobs who build **** toons is that they think doing a little of everything will be good so they create those rogue/wiz/cleric hybrids. Avoiding that does not require research and planning. It requires sanity.

Maybe they shouldn't let you multiclass the first character you roll up. Maybe they should reintroduce the idea of stat requirements so that certain builds are simply impossible. Maybe we shouldn't care about idiots and quit trying to protect them. maybe we should be comfortable with them quitting.

[Sneakee]

The problem is that it's hard and super expensive to fix mistakes. This is the main dark side of DDO.

Make respec/reincarnate easier/cheaper, not quests.

Ummm...super expensive???????

FREE TO PLAY

If your toon is THAT screwed....REROLL and learn from the experience.

Sheesh!

[KKDragonLord]

The problem with froobs who build **** toons is that they think doing a little of everything will be good so they create those rogue/wiz/cleric hybrids. Avoiding that does not require research and planning. It requires sanity.

Maybe they shouldn't let you multiclass the first character you roll up. Maybe they should reintroduce the idea of stat requirements so that certain builds are simply impossible. Maybe we shouldn't care about idiots and quit trying to protect them. maybe we should be comfortable with them quitting.

I Lolled :)

Especially because it seems that making bad MCs is the norm instead of the exception in the pugs i've made

[flynnjsw]

I Lolled :)

Especially because it seems that making bad MCs is the norm instead of the exception in the pugs i've made

You mean like the Wiz/Sorc/Cleric I saw yesterday???

[KKDragonLord]

You mean like the Wiz/Sorc/Cleric I saw yesterday???

That and the Clr7/Barb7 who was leading a VoN run, (we failed, then i started another and completed it)

and wiz4/sorc3/ranger2

etc...

[ArichValtrahn]

You may want to change the title to "character building is too complicated". DDO is not hard. Otherwise, I think you're right.

Definitely. DDO is generally easy. Anything Ive had trouble with has been the result of improper preperation. Character builds, on the other hand, are ridiculously complicated. Heck, even following posted builds can be difficult for new players.

[KKDragonLord]

Definitely. DDO is generally easy. Anything Ive had trouble with has been the result of improper preperation. Character builds, on the other hand, are ridiculously complicated. Heck, even following posted builds can be difficult for new players.

Just gotta point out that this is what sets the game apart from most mmos out there and its a good thing in the end.

Stick to a pure class and you wont go (too) wrong, its what i always say.

[HamsterBoo]

I feel like it would all be so much easier for newbs if we got some player friendly, 28 point builds and categorized them.
If I just started playing (as I have) I would love to see for each class a:
Good soloing build (with a warning that you should play in a party). This they sometimes already have
Optimized endgame build (with a description of what they do (dps, healing, tanking, etc.))
Easy leveling build (maybe not all the way up to 20, but a way to start people out)
and more that I cant think of right now.

Btw, this wont encourage "uniforming" because they are all 28 point pure builds.

Just rating the pre-made build based on soloability makes every1 a battlecleric (Which I confess I am, though now I got a GD V scepter and only heal because I suck at everything else).

Oh, and Multiclassing should be unlocked at 500 favor or so, but on all servers. At that, a newb will probly be too attached to their level 8-10 toon to reroll a gimped multiclass.

[HeeHaw]

Character re-speccing is DDO's worst feature, in my opinion.

Here's what I hear a lot in this forum: "Your first character is a practice character. Level him up until you know why he sucks, and then re-roll your real character."

Guild Wars was brought up earlier in this thread. While that game certainly has its issues, one of its biggest successful features is instant free re-speccing (while in a town). In a nutshell, you can run through a new adventure and fail. You can then look at your build, tweak it in town, and try the adventure again. If your build turns out to be improved, you can save it, and call it up again later. Throughout the game, a character will develop a list of builds, each with a different focus. The player can use the best build for any given situation.

This has many benefits:

1. It encourages both experimentation and learning. A new player can build the equivalent of a Wiz/Sor/War, and once it becomes evident why the build doesn't work, he can change it around and try again. When a vet gives him advice, he can apply it to his existing character, instead of filing it away for some "real" character down the line.

2. It helps future-proof characters for the changes inevitable in MMO's. How many players do I hear on this forum complaining that game updates have gimped their previously viable characters? With a system like GW's, this is not an issue.

3. It allows the devs freedom to make dungeons that require higher specializations. A dungeon can be made with a deadly trap that requires a trapmonkey to disarm, and a Rogue doesn't have to build a character that is gimped everywhere but that dungeon. He can use his trapmonkey build in that dungeon, and switch back to a different build for the next.

It's not an "easy button" issue. It's an issue of letting players learn the game as they play, rather than having them learn the game before they can play for real. The fact that Turbine added re-speccing options and them made them moneymaking items rather than free features is really sad. Especially for long time players with a stable of gimped characters.

[clanqui]

It would be lots easier if the preselected paths weren't (seemingly) intentionally messed up. I haven't been through all of them in detail, but from the ones I have looked at closely I honestly can't think of one that does not have some obvious and not really arguable flaw.

[Hauteclaire]

this game is too hard in terms of building for me (gameplay is easy.) I've been trying to understand these things for 3 weeks and I can do things in life several times more complicated then this game, so I don't get it. It's just hard. People try to help me but seems everyone is too busy to explain things or disappears after I ask a few questions. A lot of people assume I know what they are talking about, but I just don't and I've tried to explain myself. It would be great to find a friend in this game that also uses XFire (instead of archaic forms of chat) and genuinely likes to help others and can be patient so maybe the game could be understood and played. I'm more of an artist than a math professor and I still don't understand these builds. It's ironic because I come to this game to have fun, I work on games as my real life profession yet I can't make sense of half the stuff in this game.

If anyone actually wants to help please message me. I won't be returning to this thread. I pray you use XFire too. It's just easier. This game could be awesome but without a "mentor" to help me out with building things I want to play and really hearing what I am asking, I don't think it's playable for me... and that is a shame. I really thought this game was great when actually playing, but I don't make characters to find out I'm messing up a build. In all 20-30+ mmos I have played I always like everything preplanned.

and I don't want to play a pure class. I can see how that works. I generally like to solo. so don't suggest that. I know it's possible to solo i probably watched over 200 hours of youtube videos from last year to just yesterday before I decided on this game.

[KKDragonLord]

Points for finally openly asking for help on the forums.

Here people aren't engaged in actually playing and therefore are much more inclined to spend their free time to explain things. Also, your questions can be seen by several people willing to post about it and its a lot easier to show links to other threads where your questions might have been answered.

If you really want help, why are you saying you wont "come back" to the thread? you really want to have a one on one conversation instead of getting help from everyone? and why do you want other people to use another program for "chatting" when practically everyone else feels just fine using the in-game chat.

And i think build questions aren't really a "chat" type of thing, it would take longer to try to explain by voice than to do it with writing i think.

my suggestion is this.
1 Pick a class or role you would like your character to perform
2 go to the build section in the forums and start a thread called: New Player, need Help building a XXXX
3 ???
4 Profit!

[magnefique]

Just gotta point out that this is what sets the game apart from most mmos out there and its a good thing in the end.

Stick to a pure class and you wont go (too) wrong, its what i always say.


Turbine needs to make character customization more accessible ( not watered down ) with . . .

1. easier respecing - the UI is terrible and having to "think your character out 1-20" is too much for the average gamer

2. Feats - no waiting 3 days for feat respecs

3. enhancement UI - ( no 3 day wait ), should be easy to do - with points spent pre-requisites not having you to spend some, accept then spend more. Note cost is fine in my opinion.

4. Enhancement UI - You should be able to look at all your enhancement options, dependencies relevant to your character level choices and play with them AND see the results of your character stats/abilities without saving.

DDO is a Sandboxer's game ( from a character perspective ) but the Sandbox is not forgiving at all and downright painful to play in.

[magnefique]

Character re-speccing is DDO's worst feature, in my opinion.

Here's what I hear a lot in this forum: "Your first character is a practice character. Level him up until you know why he sucks, and then re-roll your real character."

Guild Wars was brought up earlier in this thread. While that game certainly has its issues, one of its biggest successful features is instant free re-speccing (while in a town). In a nutshell, you can run through a new adventure and fail. You can then look at your build, tweak it in town, and try the adventure again. If your build turns out to be improved, you can save it, and call it up again later. Throughout the game, a character will develop a list of builds, each with a different focus. The player can use the best build for any given situation.

This has many benefits:

1. It encourages both experimentation and learning. A new player can build the equivalent of a Wiz/Sor/War, and once it becomes evident why the build doesn't work, he can change it around and try again. When a vet gives him advice, he can apply it to his existing character, instead of filing it away for some "real" character down the line.

2. It helps future-proof characters for the changes inevitable in MMO's. How many players do I hear on this forum complaining that game updates have gimped their previously viable characters? With a system like GW's, this is not an issue.

3. It allows the devs freedom to make dungeons that require higher specializations. A dungeon can be made with a deadly trap that requires a trapmonkey to disarm, and a Rogue doesn't have to build a character that is gimped everywhere but that dungeon. He can use his trapmonkey build in that dungeon, and switch back to a different build for the next.

It's not an "easy button" issue. It's an issue of letting players learn the game as they play, rather than having them learn the game before they can play for real. The fact that Turbine added re-speccing options and them made them moneymaking items rather than free features is really sad. Especially for long time players with a stable of gimped characters.

I agree with quite a bit of what you said here. that said, I am not so opposed to cost, but a better UI and toolset to respeC characters would likely help a TON with player retention.

[voodoogroves]

I miss Bacab - think he'll come back from the dead too?

;-)

[Jsbeer]

It would be lots easier if the preselected paths weren't (seemingly) intentionally messed up. I haven't been through all of them in detail, but from the ones I have looked at closely I honestly can't think of one that does not have some obvious and not really arguable flaw.


Turbine needs to make character customization more accessible ( not watered down ) with . . .

1. easier respecing - the UI is terrible and having to "think your character out 1-20" is too much for the average gamer

2. Feats - no waiting 3 days for feat respecs

3. enhancement UI - ( no 3 day wait ), should be easy to do - with points spent pre-requisites not having you to spend some, accept then spend more. Note cost is fine in my opinion.

4. Enhancement UI - You should be able to look at all your enhancement options, dependencies relevant to your character level choices and play with them AND see the results of your character stats/abilities without saving.

DDO is a Sandboxer's game ( from a character perspective ) but the Sandbox is not forgiving at all and downright painful to play in.


In a nutshell these are key points I think. First, why are the starter builds so comically bad? Honestly, my first build after a couple of hours research on the forums was better than any of the available paths at character creation. A little effort here would be amazingly helpful for new players. (The cynic in me feels that turbine can't possibly be that clueless on this issue and the paid re-speccing options is the only reason I can think of.)

Second, given how bad the default build options are then easier and faster (perhaps not cheaper - Turbine has to earn money after all) ways of rapidly changing feats and skill points would be nice.

[Solmage]

Or all in all it´s the "metagaming" that is required in many parts of the game.
For me, it takes a lot of fun out of the game, when I am required to read about what will happen at what point in a quest. For example, you can´t do "Church and the cult" if you don´t know that the endboss is a vampire and how to beat him.

Actually... you can. But it requires that you bring in a few at level good characters with good equipment, or one very good character.

But see, this is exactly what the OP is talking about. You want to play around and create unplayable gimps for the first 20 chars you roll, that's cool. Whatever floats your boat. But then you'll then blame the quest as being too hard because you can't beat it "without prior knowledge" - I assure you my paladin, barbarian or sorcerer would need no such prior knowledge, they'd just kick it's behind.

I have a question for you: If the custom char thing was disabled, the standard builds improved to be actually good, and you DIDNT have any customization options unless you were an expert, would this make the game better for you? You seem to imply it's the meta-gaming's fault, instead of your own, so I'm genuinely interested in the answer.

[Solmage]

(The cynic in me feels that turbine can't possibly be that clueless on this issue[...])

Yes, they are. This is why they continuously make horrendous decisions that everyone that's a vet can only /facepalm about, and then, 6months to 2 years later, they realize that oops, yeah, maybe that wasn't such a good idea, after they analyze data.

The other unfortunate side effect is their inability/capacity/willingness to simply go back and remove what they messed up, so instead they tweak/change something ELSE to compensate for it - as if changing the stuff to the way it was would get them fired or something - and oftentimes mess up something else entirely, which will require another band-aid somewhere else, etc etc.

Re: character builds, only took them a few years to finally accept our feedback, here's some of the results in the 101 guides: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Category:Official_Turbine_Guides . But no, I'm not holding my breath on them changing the ACTUAL problem, the existing templates.

[Vordax]

I agree with quite a bit of what you said here. that said, I am not so opposed to cost, but a better UI and toolset to respeC characters would likely help a TON with player retention.

You do know that you are replying to a 2 year old post, right?

Vordax

[Zachski]

Jumping on the undead horse here...

Quite frankly, when I first started playing DDO, I read about the fact that like-typed bonuses don't stack with themselves, and... it STILL took a good week to set in (with frequent self-corrections), because I was still so used to every other game allowing stacking bonuses.

The pre-set classes are horrible and newbie-unfriendly. While they shouldn't be optimized, they should be easy to play.

And finally, people who scoff at making the game more "newbie-friendly" are part of the problem, not the solution. Making mistakes is a way to learn, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll learn the correct solution and not a flawed workaround that'll cause MORE problems in the future.

Not to mention, it helps if you can have someone explain to you what the mistake you made is, exactly. (I remember one post on these forums where someone mentioned that, on their capped character, they didn't even know what fortification was until they asked why they were dying so much, because no one had taken the time to explain that it exists.)

And if you don't have a lot of money, respeccing essentially means starting completely over, in some cases. Now, imagine getting to level 15 and finding out that your 6-str 24-dex Rogue needs a lot more strength in order to succeed? And that you don't have access to a lesser heart to fix that?

It's hard to learn from mistakes when they are extremely expensive in either time or money.

Heck, even level 5 is an investment, depending on how much time and energy each day you can dedicate to DDO.

I did the research, but then, I spend more time researching than I actually do playing the game. (I've still gotta get around to rolling that wizard I asked for help for...) I don't want that to be other players. I want them to actually play the game. I want them to actually play the game.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

The pre-set classes are horrible and newbie-unfriendly. While they shouldn't be optimized, they should be easy to play.

And finally, people who scoff at making the game more "newbie-friendly" are part of the problem, not the solution. Making mistakes is a way to learn, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll learn the correct solution and not a flawed workaround that'll cause MORE problems in the future.


I think a large part has to do with those awful preset characters Turbine has put in. I wish they'd just convert them to what Tihocan has done with his revisited path builds. If they could explain per level, why they chose to put build points in certain places and skill points and feats...ect ect, that would help newer players a TON.

I also think that Korthos should be slightly redone to let players know about stacking bonuses and fortification. For example, maybe one of the quests can offer a light fortification belt as a reward and a hint icon can explain why fortification is important. Same thing could be done with stacking bonuses.

I had a bit of background with PnP so it was not difficult for me to understand the mechanics of the game...but learning these mechanics take a long time.

[Galeria]

I will agree that it's hard to learn this game without help.

I was lucky that I had my husband to explain how things worked and review my gear for duplicates but it still took 3 characters almost to cap before I started to understand how the choices I made at character selection really affected my ability to play.

I think the devs probably feel like people won't bother to take the time to read up how things work (how many people ever actually talked to and read the advice of the master trainers on Korthos?) but there ought to be more options that teach (if you want them.)

It would be nice if there was some sort of NPC in Korthos who would inspect your gear and display duplicate properties with an explanation of why they don't stack and point out some weaknesses.

"You might want to consider wearing a fortification item if you find one. Fortification is what keeps you from taking extra damage when an enemy scores a critical hit on you."

"You are wearing a lesser false life item(Belt) and a false life item (Necklace). Only the highest false life item will be counted, so consider replacing your belt with something more useful."

"You are not wearing any items that increase your concentration. This is important for a (monk, wizard, etc) because it allows you to store more ki/not be interrupted if you take damage while casting a spell."

"You are wearing two strength items. Bracers (+1 strength) and gloves (+2 strength.) Only the higher value is actually being applied. Consider replacing your bracers with something more useful."


Another idea would be to add a tab to the inventory screen that ONLY displays list style the items you are wearing with an orange or some other distinctive color border on items that are not being counted because they duplicate something else you are wearing.

[jcoffey]

Of course DDO would copy WoW or any other MMO out there.

WoW and some other MMO's blow DDO out of the water with subs.

The mighty Buck comes first,period.

DDO is a great game until end game but then you are done.What is the point of running Epic content when you just end up running the same content you just ran to get to 20?

Like others have told me the fun in DDO is the journey to 20 and I totally agree.
The problem for a lot is noone wants to take the same journey more than a couple times especially if it takes more gas every time.=P

I remember when several of my friends first started playin DDO,they made funky builds and it was hard for them.After working it out with them and showing them decent builds they loved it.(until 20 anyway,lol)

[NaturalHazard]

I didn't find DDO that hard, ive still got my first charactor, got him to level 20, 28 point build, run him through epics, no LR's, even tanked suulo, in vod tod, horoth and the epic CAD way more than I thought I would be able to accomplish. Will be tring the charactor soon, but yeah made some mistakes and the charactor was way outdated but not broken.

Things that helped me some, I played BG 1-2, icewind dale (lol) NWN1 and 2, so had some expriance with the d20 system and some of the spells/class/ and stuff, basic system, a lot of things are different, but I had more of a clue than most people.

Second I had a lot of help and info from the forums, I guess most mmo's you just pick up and play your charactor from scratch with little research? Playing those other D&D based games I learnt about the concept of planning out your charactors build before you play it.

[Zachski]

I had a bit of background with PnP so it was not difficult for me to understand the mechanics of the game...but learning these mechanics take a long time.

The ironic thing is, between someone new to D&D and someone who's an expert at at the PnP version and is coming to DDO for the first time, you can generally expect the PnP Expert to roll up a worse first character due to the fact that DDO is an entirely different beholder than 3.5

[SirValentine]

The ironic thing is, between someone new to D&D and someone who's an expert at at the PnP version and is coming to DDO for the first time, you can generally expect the PnP Expert to roll up a worse first character due to the fact that DDO is an entirely different beholder than 3.5


So true. My first Cleric life.

Max out Wis? Too expensive with that point-buy stuff, spread all those stats around, 14s everywhere!

Metamagic feats? Those suck, no way I'm going to blow a feat on that. I need stuff like MentalToughness and SkillFocus:Concentration!

Though Clerics are so amazing that even a gimp Cleric can muddle through 20 raid completions and enough Epics to buy a True Heart of Wood.

[Urist]

I have a Pale Master. I feel comfortable posting in this thread. ;)


I guess most mmo's you just pick up and play your charactor from scratch with little research? Playing those other D&D based games I learnt about the concept of planning out your charactors build before you play it.
IME when most people start a new game, they just go ahead and play the game. I am one such person. Research and planning generally come into it only when a roadblock is hit.

In DDO, it's only by the mid-levels that any real roadblocks occur. That's a lot of invested time for many players (I've been playing over a year, and level 12 is my highest character), and if they've bought BtC gear (eg. bags) for their gimped toon which now needs rerolling... well, Turbine just light their cigars with $100 bills and laugh.

What I'd like to see is a free, or very low-cost (max 100TP) "rebirth" option, which lets you recreate your character at level 1 (or 4 for vets). Pretty much like a True Reincarnation (keep name, inventory, etc.), but without the feats, extra build points or increased XP requirements. A False Reincarnation, if you will. :)

[Such755]

There is something in what the OP is saying.
People come here and try to multiclass into crazy sh*t, but is this the game's fault? Hell no.
People need to research, think, investigate before they attempt anything. When I came here, sure I made a few mistakes making a fighter with high dexterity for both melee and archery, but I learned very fast, I looked at the wiki, forum, compendium. Everything is simple if you don't complicate it yourself.
If a new player wants to learn, he'll learn, and do things right. (I give myself as an example)

ALTHOUGH I would very much like to see a warning system that warns people when they try to make stupid class combinations, stat combinations etc...

[Galeria]

What I'd like to see is a free, or very low-cost (max 100TP) "rebirth" option, which lets you recreate your character at level 1 (or 4 for vets). Pretty much like a True Reincarnation (keep name, inventory, etc.), but without the feats, extra build points or increased XP requirements. A False Reincarnation, if you will. :)

Actually, this is already IN the game, it's called a Lesser Reincarnation. But it costs 895 TP for a Lesser Heart of Wood (or 627 if you buy on sale.)

I think it's a fair price to rebuild a character and retain the leveling you've already done.

There's already a free option- you can delete and start over. Mail all your stuff to your other toon. Or buy a new character slot for 595 TP. Already plenty of options.

[pipboy1]

Actually, this is already IN the game, it's called a Lesser Reincarnation. But it costs 895 TP for a Lesser Heart of Wood (or 627 if you buy on sale.)

I think it's a fair price to rebuild a character and retain the leveling you've already done.

There's already a free option- you can delete and start over. Mail all your stuff to your other toon. Or buy a new character slot for 595 TP. Already plenty of options.

Galeria notice two things in Urist's post...BtC and 100 TP


I have a Pale Master. I feel comfortable posting in this thread. ;)

That's a lot of invested time for many players (I've been playing over a year, and level 12 is my highest character), and if they've bought BtC gear (eg. bags) for their gimped toon which now needs rerolling... well, Turbine just light their cigars with $100 bills and laugh.

What I'd like to see is a free, or very low-cost (max 100TP) "rebirth" option, which lets you recreate your character at level 1 (or 4 for vets). Pretty much like a True Reincarnation (keep name, inventory, etc.), but without the feats, extra build points or increased XP requirements. A False Reincarnation, if you will. :)

You cant mail BtC nor is lesser reincarnate that cheap.

[pipboy1]

Well I guess I am no longer a complete noob. I am still noobish lol after playing this game for a while. It is not hard, but is irritating to realize "how hard it is" to learn the bugs. The AI is so stupid is one problem. I mean what would be a point of a Dwarven Defender when critters just walk right through you when they feel like it.

Junk feats and spells is another on character building. When building a character the only when to find answers on whether or not something really works is trial and error. This is not good when you can not just redo your mistake without sinking a lot of time or cash in it to fix it. Stuff just not working as you would think it was intended is the biggest problem.

Playing in character at all like in PnP translates to 0 in this game. Alignments are there just for item selection and restriction of bard/pallies mutliclasses. Why in the hell is there no evil alignment still? What do you think 13 year olds are more likely to do evil acts because of their alignments? Versus playing a pale master?

And as for an argument about bad mutliclass choices...well you know DDO really has screwed up the whole idea of multiclass caster levels. Where are the special prestige classes that allow you can casting levels as if you were still taking levels of the caster level? For example Arcane Trickster, if you take would take the trickster prestige class you would get sneak attacks and arcane casting levels increased.

So anyway for someone who actually plays DnD, and not some grind fest game called DDO then it can be difficult to understand that this game sucks on representing the PnP. So when you say poor multiclass or not understanding the DDO mechanics that does not mean the player does not understand DnD mechanics.

Many players as stated in this thread that have run the quest a million times..well good for you. You know someone who plays Donkey Kong a million times might say the game is easy as well, and trying to give more lives to the player is stupid. Why? Because it took a lot time for them to learn how to beat Donkey Kong levels over and over. Sorry I do not really care to listen for advice from people who spend every minute playing this game in real life to rate how hard it is. Might as well ask a millionaire's opinion on what is real work.

[Urist]

Actually, this is already IN the game, it's called a Lesser Reincarnation. But it costs 895 TP for a Lesser Heart of Wood (or 627 if you buy on sale.)

I think it's a fair price to rebuild a character and retain the leveling you've already done.
I never meant that you would retain your XP. That is why I compared it to TRing, rather than Lesser or Greater.
The low price suggested was because it was, essentially, a giant "reset" button for your character; starting them again from zero XP. Like rerolling, but keeping any items you've ground out. Or at a bare minimum, BtC items purchased from the store should certainly be retained.

There are plenty of options, but IMO none of them are yet the right option, at least for the newbie gimp.

[Zachski]

Essentially, it's kinda hard to learn through trial and error when you have to pay either several hours or significant amounts of cash in order to fix your mistake... and even then, you can't guarantee that your fix isn't another mistake, even WITH research.

Which is why I oppose players who support trial and error learning.

Trial and error is not a significantly educational way of learning. It is very easy to learn a wrong way to do something and succeed anyways through sheer perseverance, not realizing that you learned a wrong way.

Practice does not make perfect. Practicing right makes perfect. Knowing how to practice right isn't something that's innate.

[Jsbeer]

Essentially, it's kinda hard to learn through trial and error when you have to pay either several hours or significant amounts of cash in order to fix your mistake... and even then, you can't guarantee that your fix isn't another mistake, even WITH research.

Which is why I oppose players who support trial and error learning.

Trial and error is not a significantly educational way of learning. It is very easy to learn a wrong way to do something and succeed anyways through sheer perseverance, not realizing that you learned a wrong way.

Practice does not make perfect. Practicing right makes perfect. Knowing how to practice right isn't something that's innate.

More or less in agreement especially for newer players. DDO character building is pretty complicated and very few people get their first character built well. And a badly built character can be appallingly painful to play at higher levels.

Consequently, I would strongly support fixing the b**p b***p b***p standard builds for new players. Honestly, how hard can this be?

A link which was viewable in-game of UP-TO-DATE tips would be nice too.....

[011775715]

not everyone have friends to play with. and people don't really post anything when they are online and if they do you don't have the pre quest for it. its even harder if you don't have gear and even harder when you cant even farm for it when you are squishy to farm it since nobody cares about you. am I wrong? its not that hard if you have friends to play with but not everyone have that luxury. so yes it can hard.

[Memnir]

http://i.imgur.com/q2eQXqy.jpg

[Hobgoblin]

https://www.cubecraft.net/attachments/necroposting-living-dead-jpg.84213/

[sithhound]

Necro-posts are always kind of sad. You scroll through pages and pages, and all these people are gone. :(

[TimtheGreat89]

Originally I was responding in a thread to this thread

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=233139

And I felt it was necessary to vent some frustration. Not sure if anyone else feels this way.

It led to this post paraphrased in regards to broken builds/then Froobs complaining about how "hard the game is"

It is typically:
Hi, I am a new player...with 28 pt build or drow (which makes them think they know what they are doing)...started playing 2 weeks ago. I want to nuke and heal so here is my build : 11 Favored Soul/5 SOR / 4 Wizard.

Notice that this build lacks heal/blade barrier and haste/fireball from the arcane side. It also has a job that you can buy (FVS) or earn with 2500 favor. Well this is where I get confused. If you want to buy FVS, thats fine and cool, but also buy 32 pt build. If you do not want to buy FVS...well you will earn 32 pt build BEFORE you earn FVS.

But long story short, what you get is really broken build that can not do anything at all. So then there are posts made (by vets) that such build will not work...so then the poster then says "what if I have 6 months worth of greensteel items and 50 mill worth of other assorted gear and extremely rare raid drops...it will THEN work . Well if you have those resources and skill...then YOU can make such a build work. But you are then successful INSPITE of your build...not BECAUSE of your build. Another fun thing to see is the typical build with 6 +4 tomes and extremely rare gear AND then it has to be a TRed twice toon...to work.

I could see Shade, ANthios, MaddMatt etc... running a SOR with 16 Total CHR and meleeing stuff and due to their Resources and skill...They could make it work. But such things are not recommended to "new players".

I played this game when it first came out, and then took like a 2 year break...then came back. It saddens me to see people (new players) make broken builds then complain to Turbine that the "GAME IS TOO HARD" since thier toon can not complete anything. Then Turbine rewards the "Froob" with an "easy button".

It just is hard for me to stomach this and watch the best MMO out there (have played most of them) get ruined by people unwilling to listen/learn from more experienced people.

There are a lot of complicated builds in the game that I too can't get my head around. Just create a build that will be easy for you to use, such as a Fighter Tank/DPS build to get you started. Then once you learn from other people's builds and how they work, including the FVS build you're describing then you'll do just fine in the game. Mental note, don't start with a build that's too complicated for you. Just start with something easy, and go from there.

I hope this helps.

[Cordovan]

necro.