Frenzied Berserker balancing pass

[jkm]

note: i know that this PrE had to be obscenely powerful to get people out of crit rage. however, i also think it is time to bring it down a notch to be more inline with other PrEs.

FB1 - diehard, +2 str, glancing blows, 10 hp to gain vicious property

2 feats - 1 most take anyway
5 APs

this is basically in line with a lot of the other prestige enhancements with the one exception being that everything tends to actually be useable by the current class.

FB2 - +1 critical mod, glancing blows, 10 hp to cleave

0 Feats -
11 APs -

this is where we start to move away from balance with other PrEs. for most other PrE's, you repeat the bonuses from the first PrE and then give a special ability that is clicky based. for FB, they give a huge boost to dps with no downside or limit on uses.

revised

FB2 - bullheaded when raged, +2 str, 10 hp to Supreme Cleave with a +1 crit mod


now, this is more like a divine sacrifice type clicky which means that it can only be used once or twice per chain.

FB3 - +1 critical mod, 20hp to enter death frenzy (which grants yet another +4 str and +1 to critical mod, and 4d6 vicious/1d3 self)

0 Feats
12 APs

honestly, i have no idea why the death frenzy even exists. other PrEs don't get a passive clicky with this much boost over the main part of the PrE. this is where this severely breaks the PrE.

revised

FB3 - +1 critical mod, 20hp to enter death frenzy (which grants yet another +4 str and +1 to critical mod, and 4d6 vicious/1d3 self) at a cost of 75% fortification

notes

these changes bring the class more in line with other PrEs (especially kensai) and make it to where the +3 bonus to crit mod is not constant and it has some serious drawbacks to getting that much damage.

[Angelus_dead]

note: i know that this PrE had to be obscenely powerful to get people out of crit rage. however, i also think it is time to bring it down a notch to be more inline with other PrEs.
It looks more like the balance problems with Frenzied Berserker characters aren't so much with that specialty, but with the barbarian class and how it interacts with other problematic game mechanics.

Barbarians are the only class with just one prestige specialty. It will be easier to see the balance adjustments needed once they have another choice.

(I am intentionally ignoring Pale Master, which is a nonissue for balance because training it weakens the Wizard character)



be more inline with other PrEs.
For game balance, it isn't really important for prestige specialties of different classes to be balanced against each other. What matters is balance between the total characters you can make using both class features, specialty enhancements, and universal options.

[jkm]

while i agree that it doesn't have to be the same, the problem here is that it duplicates the problems with crit rage - minimal cost for always on dps. the only thing you have to have is a heal every X swings which you were going to get anyway.

in general most tier 3 PrEs work like this

6 - small bonus - minor clicky ability
12 - small bonus - major clicky ability
18 - big bonus

tempest is a little different, because of the original way it was implemented

6 - big bonus
12 - meh bonus
18 - big bonus

FB is more like this (note clickies are determined by hit points, not by shrineable clickies)

6 - small bonus - minor clicky ability
12 - big bonus - minor clicky ability
18 - big bonus - extremely major clicky ability

[Noctus]

I see no balance problem with Barbarians.

Please elaborate.

[Gnorbert]

Sounds like someone is just underwhelmed with the PREs of their own class. It's a strong PRE for sure, but Barbs are not out of balance with other melee DPS, in fact it can be illustrated that we need FB the way it is to stay competetive with Kensei and tempest.

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes... barbarians should be nerfed to deal less dps then monks... oh and of course with all that ac barbs dont need fortification either...

/fail

[Auran82]

Yes... barbarians should be nerfed to deal less dps then monks... oh and of course with all that ac barbs dont need fortification either...

/fail

Someone grouped with a barbarian and had a lower kill count I think.

[Xeraphim]

Someone grouped with a barbarian and had a lower kill count I think.

Isn't that how it always happens?

[Pyromaniac]

Why even make PrE if they're going to be nerfed to uselessness? I think that lesson has been learned with Pale Master - I've played with only one on live servers only once.

Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, FvS, Rogues and Monks are all fine. Bards, Sorcs, Wizards, and Clerics all need significant love from Turbine.

[CSFurious]

please just roll a frenzied berzerker & have some dps fun v. trying to ruin other peoples' fun with your lame game balancing

[zealous]

Sounds like someone is just underwhelmed with the PREs of their own class. It's a strong PRE for sure, but Barbs are not out of balance with other melee DPS, in fact it can be illustrated that we need FB the way it is to stay competetive with Kensei and tempest.
This.

Frenzied is fine as is, barbs needs to literally kill themselves to reach a dps competitive to the other classes being played and equipped correctly. The killing themselves bit being the balancing factor for playing/equipping a barb correctly being somewhat easier.

[HeavenlyCloud]

I think i understand why you want to nerf Frenzied Berserker but i still lol'd. The only way to match other classes dps (or be better not gonna get into it) and you want to take it away.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

note: i know that this PrE had to be obscenely powerful to get people out of crit rage. however, i also think it is time to bring it down a notch to be more inline with other PrEs.

FB1 - diehard, +2 str, glancing blows, 10 hp to gain vicious property

2 feats - 1 most take anyway
5 APs

this is basically in line with a lot of the other prestige enhancements with the one exception being that everything tends to actually be useable by the current class.

FB2 - +1 critical mod, glancing blows, 10 hp to cleave

0 Feats -
11 APs -

this is where we start to move away from balance with other PrEs. for most other PrE's, you repeat the bonuses from the first PrE and then give a special ability that is clicky based. for FB, they give a huge boost to dps with no downside or limit on uses.

revised

FB2 - bullheaded when raged, +2 str, 10 hp to Supreme Cleave with a +1 crit mod


now, this is more like a divine sacrifice type clicky which means that it can only be used once or twice per chain.

FB3 - +1 critical mod, 20hp to enter death frenzy (which grants yet another +4 str and +1 to critical mod, and 4d6 vicious/1d3 self)

0 Feats
12 APs

honestly, i have no idea why the death frenzy even exists. other PrEs don't get a passive clicky with this much boost over the main part of the PrE. this is where this severely breaks the PrE.

revised

FB3 - +1 critical mod, 20hp to enter death frenzy (which grants yet another +4 str and +1 to critical mod, and 4d6 vicious/1d3 self) at a cost of 75% fortification

notes

these changes bring the class more in line with other PrEs (especially kensai) and make it to where the +3 bonus to crit mod is not constant and it has some serious drawbacks to getting that much damage.

Umm, no.
The pre is bablanced prety well compared to some others.
A barb has to make a lot of sacrifices to maintain his dps, whis at times might be lower than that of other classes that make lesser sacrifices.

Completly and utterly /not singed.

[Delacroix21]

Why even make PrE if they're going to be nerfed to uselessness? I think that lesson has been learned with Pale Master - I've played with only one on live servers only once.

Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, FvS, Rogues and Monks are all fine. Bards, Sorcs, Wizards, and Clerics all need significant love from Turbine.


Aparently you have never played a monk! They are also in desperate need of a PrE, and suffer from being the only class in DDO locked out of Gsteel crafted and Epic weapons. Instead they have to forfeit 2 rings slots to dps just to stay competitive, when they could use the regular crafted bonuses just as much as everyone else.


Personally I say not to nerf the barb PrE, but instead add three 3rd tier PrEs to every class! This should be the GREATEST focus right now, not some dumb half orc.

[vindicater]

Man will people never tire of someone else has it easier than me. Next someone will be complaining that there sorc dosent get the same hp progression as a fighter.

[Aaxeyu]

If something, it should be improved. Not nerfed.

[DragonMageT]

Man, if they change the current PrE on Barbs and nerf it, every Barb on all servers that have FB3
will be TR'ing into something else like Kensai or Tempest.

Just roll up a Barb and feel the love and power of FB3.
Epic fail, Leave it alone.

[jkm]

actually, i don't have a problem with barbs having the most dps. i remember when they didn't have crit rage and were pretty much shunned (as were rangers). as a matter of a fact, i don't really have a problem with FB3 in its current form except the always on mentality that got the devs in trouble with tempest.

also as i said before, i know the reason they went overboard on adding all the stuff to it - to offer a PrE that was better than crit rage. i have a buddy who had a w/p barb since mod 4 that refuses to play it anymore.

the biggest issue i have with the PrE is that all of the features rely on easily replenishable assets - hit points.

going back to monkey archer's post, i think the death frenzy probably should be tied to your barb damage boosts instead of being a hit points cost (enter a death frenzy for 1 minute for a use of your barb damage boost).

as for tier 2, i'd still move it to the cleave but i'd make the cleave better. +2 crit bonus on a critical (not just 19/20) and add 4d6 untyped damage to it.

[Giddlypip]

From my experience, barbarians are DPS. They are not versatile like a ranger or rogue who can umd and do other things, they just DPS and FB is perfect for them... I've grouped with Barbs that weren't FB and we may as well have the arcanes meleeing.

Pip

[Thrudh]

The problem I have with FB (and all PrEs really) is that that benefits are not evenly distributed between the Tiers...

Any barbarian that doesn't take 18 levels of barbarian is a gimp. Plain and simple... Tier III is just ridiculously overpowered...

+4 STR
4d6 damage
+2 critical multipliers
Glancing blow bonus...

A 17/3 barbarian/whatever does like 30% less DPS than a 18/2 barbarian/whatever...

That is ridiculously huge...

I'd much rather see all the benefits of a PrE be evenly distributed through all three Tier IIIs... Tempest is way too strong front-loaded, and FB is way too strong back-loaded...

A 12 barbarian/8 whatever should be feasible and not a total gimp

[Thrudh]

going back to monkey archer's post, i think the death frenzy probably should be tied to your barb damage boosts instead of being a hit points cost (enter a death frenzy for 1 minute for a use of your barb damage boost).

That's a good compromise...

[jkm]

The problem I have with FB (and all PrEs really) is that that benefits are not evenly distributed between the Tiers...

Any barbarian that doesn't take 18 levels of barbarian is a gimp. Plain and simple... Tier III is just ridiculously overpowered...

+4 STR
4d6 damage
+2 critical multipliers
Glancing blow bonus...

A 17/3 barbarian/whatever does like 30% less DPS than a 18/2 barbarian/whatever...

That is ridiculously huge...

I'd much rather see all the benefits of a PrE be evenly distributed through all three Tier IIIs... Tempest is way too strong front-loaded, and FB is way too strong back-loaded...

A 12 barbarian/8 whatever should be feasible and not a total gimp

well, this goes back to they wanted people out of crit rage.

i also noticed one typo in my original post, i was actually trying to get fortification to be reduced to 75%, not by 75%. this way WF can get some utility out of their 125% fortification, but anyway.

[maddmatt70]

Fighters do more dps then Barbarians. If you were going to do anything to barbarians I would actually reduce their defensive capabilities i.e. hit points and dr. Since Ac is a nonfactor in a large portion of the end game and the like having a higher hit point and dr over fighters and paladins is more unbalancing. Paladins can only compete defensively via their somewhat better saves and fighters can only compete with barbarians defensively if they gimp their offense in effect by going with the stalwart defender pre or the like.

[Angelus_dead]

Fighters do more dps then Barbarians. If you were going to do anything to barbarians I would actually reduce their defensive capabilities i.e. hit points and dr. Since Ac is a nonfactor in a large portion of the end game
I would like to see barbarian defense reduced, but by changing global game rules instead of specific details of the class.
1. Reduce the importance of run speed to dodging monster swings.
2. Nerf Fortification into a confirmation penalty, so that the lower AC of a barbarian actually means something.

[Borror0]

1. Reduce the importance of run speed to dodging monster swings.
How would you do that?

[Gunga]

Completly and utterly /not singed.

Does that mean that you completely didn't sign with your utter?

That's gross, man.

/not signed without my utter

[Gunga]

Fighters do more dps then Barbarians.

Hah hahah ahh a ha.

HAH SHA HAHa hhs H AH HAhah.

HAHHAH HAHHHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHA.



No.

[Thrudh]

Fighters do more dps then Barbarians.

They do?

[Angelus_dead]

How would you do that?
That's a hard question to answer, not only because it's a difficult topic, but because explaining it would take detail and effort. But here are a few possibilities, without going into all the assorted implications.

1. Give monsters increased rotational speed when the aggro target is at close range.

2. Give monsters a boost to reach and movement speed while a standard melee attack is in progress. (But not when the choice to attack or not is being considered)

3. Have monsters take velocity-based prediction into account when deciding if an enemy is in range for an attack. (Ranged attacks could also use such prediction).

4. Give monsters an animation to run and attack at the same time.

[BlackSteel]

barbarians need a small bump not a nerf. Right now they're good sustained DPS, and the near perma high str leads to good dc's on combat feats and makes you resistant to knockdown; BUT they're by no means the king of cheese. Its hard to beat attack speed bonuses.

I'll still persist in my request to have damage boost re-evaluated ;) 10 AP for 20 seconds of 5 additional damage when you're already doing 100 base is SAD.


Now if barbarians were miles and above everyone else in DPS, then sure, this thread would have a valid point. But they're not, and in some situations they're not even close. And for being self damaging, they should do more damage than they do.





Fix damage boost!