Not A good idea to Lesser Rez!

[Xhine]

If you make any kind of mistake. Albeit small. Once that char is created they will not help you fix it!!! you have to wait a week! with a Gimpy toon! Qnd then dole out more ddo points so unless you've got everything planned, ddo support cannot help you they just told me i have to wait a week. Even when i said my char was unplayable. (on Accident i gave my Cleric 18 int instead of 18 wisdom) They could not or would not reset the process!!!!

Thanks all for awesome grouping

[rage9]

uhm........not a good idea to lesser res when ur stoned I would say is a more appropriate statement. Failing to see why you think this is anyone elses fault but your own?
Sorry dude, that sucks but think of all the skill points ya got now lmfao :D

[Hurtzz]

If you make any kind of mistake. Albeit small. Once that char is created they will not help you fix it!!! you have to wait a week! with a Gimpy toon! Qnd then dole out more ddo points so unless you've got everything planned, ddo support cannot help you they just told me i have to wait a week. Even when i said my char was unplayable. (on Accident i gave my Cleric 18 int instead of 18 wisdom) They could not or would not reset the process!!!!

Thanks all for awesome grouping

And why should they help you fix it?
This is not the type of game where you can make a mistake and then whine to a dev simply because YOU made a mistake.

Welcome to DD, oh no I made a mistake:P

Hurtzz

[TechNoFear]

Failing to see why you think this is anyone elses fault but your own?

Because most programmers realise that people make mistakes and design the UI to allow users to correct those mistakes (even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again).

Good to see you decided to empathise with the OP, rather than take cheap shots, and did not rub his nose in a mistake he obviously wishes he had not made (as it cost him at least 900TPs and a week).

[Sirea]

It's no one's fault but your own if you don't pay attention while you roll your character. Let it be a lesson to you.

I think you're going to find it hard to find people to sympathize with you.

[Sirea]

Because most programmers realise that people make mistakes and design the UI to allow users to correct those mistakes (even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again).

Good to see you decided to empathise with the OP, rather than take cheap shots, and did not rub his nose in a mistake he obviously wishes he had not made (as it cost him at least 900TPs and a week).

I know if I had spent that many Turbine points on something like a reincarnation, that'd I'd make paying attention to that task my top priority, and double and triple check everything before I hit OK.

[TechNoFear]

In professional software user errors that can not be corrected (if discovered during the process) ARE design errors.


I know if I had spent that many Turbine points on something like a reincarnation, that'd I'd make paying attention to that task my top priority, and double and triple check everything before I hit OK.

Trouble is you view it from only your perspective, as a single user ie "double and triple check everything before I hit OK and I will not make a mistake."

The programmers are supposed to view it from the multi user perspective ie "this UI will be used by thousands of users and has hundreds of steps before it is complete, therefore the probability for error is multiplied by 100,000s.
We therefore need a reset mechanism."

[phalaeo]

Lemme get this straight....

You fudged up your reincarnate, and you think that Turbine screwed up somehow?

[DelverRootnose]

In professional software user errors that can not be corrected (if discovered during the process) ARE design errors.



Trouble is you view it from only your perspective, as a single user ie "double and triple check everything before I hit OK and I will not make a mistake."

The programmers are supposed to view it from the multi user perspective ie "this UI will be used by thousands of users and has hundreds of steps before it is complete, therefore the probability for error is multiplied by 100,000s.
We therefore need a reset mechanism."

mechanism. He has to wait a week to use it and it will cost him.

This is just like someone accidentially buying the wrong stock and then crying to the online broker that he lost money and wants to undo it.

[Sweyn]

Hi Welcome

[Lithic]

The programmers are supposed to view it from the multi user perspective ie "this UI will be used by thousands of users and has hundreds of steps before it is complete, therefore the probability for error is multiplied by 100,000s.
We therefore need a reset mechanism."

There is a big fat warning when you reincarnate that any mistakes cannot be undone. How someone can put 18 int instead of wisdom on a cleric is beyond me, unless they were braindead at the time.

Next time, don't reincarnate when you are impaired.

If you were NOT impaired at the time, and that is your normal 100% functioning self, then you should refrain from chewing gum while walking. It's for your safety and the safety of the ones nearest and dearest to you.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I agree it needs a confirmation/reset button at the end.

However, I also agree that you need to pay more attention while doing it.

[HeavenlyCloud]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/Funny_Pictures_29017.jpg

[Thriand]

I remember back when we screwed up characters that badly we had to delete them and start from scratch, another week and some TP seems pretty fair to me now. It sucks that it happened to you but there are plenty of warnings involved as is with the reincarnation process. Learn from this mistake and be extra careful next time around, but turbine is in no way at fault for a poor choice in stat distribution.

As far as what your topic implies there is nothing about lesser reincarnations that make them a "bad idea" for most people, but not paying close attention can have some unwanted results, but that can be the case in any leveling situation and isn't specific to lesser reincarnation.

[Kirachan]

The programmers are supposed to view it from the multi user perspective ie "this UI will be used by thousands of users and has hundreds of steps before it is complete, therefore the probability for error is multiplied by 100,000s.
We therefore need a reset mechanism."

Oh, I bet they have one and could reset it if they needed to. But they would be stupid to do it for everyone who makes some mistake and comes crying for help. Because if the reset his char, everyone else making any small error in the future would feel obliged to a reset too.

[KoboldTrapper]

I feel for you. I came over to DDO from playing Ragnarok Online, and the server(s) I played on had a stat/skill reset option at huge amounts of zeny (in-game currency), and RARE items that are extremely challenging to get if you can't solo in the areas they drop in.

However, I can't feel too badly for you since you did mess up, and not Turbine. You re-statted the character, not turbine. personally, I feel that, just like in D&D, you should be able to redo feats/skills/levels by doing a "retraining quest" like, 1/month, then paying for the reincarnates if you have to again.

In D&D, you need only spend like, a week for every class level, feat, etc. that you want to re-train. This only makes sense to me. *shrugs*

Better luck next time person.

[Noonie]

A good friend of mine once said:

"Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid."

[Maegin]

Hi Welcome.

[jones20992]

uhm........not a good idea to lesser res when ur stoned

i think you hit he nail on the head with that one

and dont forget kids Don't Drink and Derive!

[piggiecrdf2]

In professional software user errors that can not be corrected (if discovered during the process) ARE design errors.



Trouble is you view it from only your perspective, as a single user ie "double and triple check everything before I hit OK and I will not make a mistake."

The programmers are supposed to view it from the multi user perspective ie "this UI will be used by thousands of users and has hundreds of steps before it is complete, therefore the probability for error is multiplied by 100,000s.
We therefore need a reset mechanism."

He is GIVEN DOUBLE, TRIPLE AND QUADRUPLE checkS before he finally clicked OK. First check, the stat distribution screen, don't you look again when you click next? Second check, do you not realize you have sooooo many more skill points than you planned when you raise your skills? Third check, do you see that complete button and not looked your stat/skill/feat selections again? 4th check, don't you see the big red warning before you actually click it? He's given MANY chances "during the process", according to your words, to correct his mistakes, Yet he didn't take advantage of them.

Next time you'll see someone demanding to be teleported back inside the dungeon because he clicked finish out before looting his +4 tome, even though he had enough time to not brag but loot the tome; even though he had enough time to cancel that process before he's actually out of the place. Then next someone will be demanding a rolled back, because he accidentally ran into lava and died, lost 10% xp and costed him money to repair. So on and on...

He simply need to pay a price for what he's done. He's gotta wait for a week and pay to reincarnate again, as much as the guy that left the +4 tome in the chest and the guy that died cuz he hit "r" and ran into lava.

[mistahnice]

there are (expectedly) serious bugs with LR. one of my buddies lr'd away one rogue level on a wizard-rogue splash build and whenever he takes new wizard levels he can learn exactly 0 new spells. he has to buy every scroll, and a gm told him to pike off and it wasn't his problem when he put in a petition for help. LR is busted, no one at turbine cares.

[TechNoFear]

I fail to see why this engenders so much angst from you people.

This is a trivial to implement improvement to the UI, that would save much frustration in the future.

Why is shouted down on the premise that people should be more careful or do you think you contibution to the thread was helpful, informative or justified (rather than insulting and immature)?


He is GIVEN DOUBLE, TRIPLE AND QUADRUPLE checkS before he finally clicked OK.

Ever done a reincarnation of a high level character? (I have done 3)

In an up to 20 level process you can only reset during the 1st level.

Any error made/discovered during the other (up to) 19 levels require at least US$9 and 1 week to fix.

Your examples are non sequitur.

[spyderwolf]

heres a novel idea. plan out what your doing before ya do it. ive lr'd 4 toons myself, and i planned out what i was taking when and where in advance. if your waiting to do that til your in the process then your gonna mess up in all likelyhood. if turbine had actually been at fault for why your toon was messed up then id support any idea to fix it, but you messed your toon up yourself and should just accept the fact that its gonna cost ya 9 bucks and a week of your time.

[piggiecrdf2]

I fail to see why this engenders so much angst from you people.

This is a trivial to implement improvement to the UI, that would save much frustration in the future.

Why is shouted down on the premise that people should be more careful or do you think you contibution to the thread was helpful, informative or justified (rather than insulting and immature)?



Ever done a reincarnation of a high level character? (I have done 3)

In an up to 20 level process you can only reset during the 1st level.

Any error made/discovered during the other (up to) 19 levels require at least US$9 and 1 week to fix.

Your examples are non sequitur.


Did you realize the reason I used my examples of finishing out with loot in chest or walking in lava? Paying a price for your own fault then you'll remember it next time and won't do it again. Otherwise Turbine will be wasting A LOT RESOURCES to take care of this kind of stuff later on, once the trend of wasting time to repair player's own fault is started. This means, a lot less new contents, no new race, no new class because turbine is tooooo busy fixing YOUR OWN FAULT.

By the way, the OP is talking about having 18 "starting" int instead of 18 wis. So may I use your own words for yourself here. Your reply is non sequitur.

[The10man]

[QUOTE=TechNoFear;2771756]Because most programmers realise that people make mistakes and design the UI to allow users to correct those mistakes (even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again).

They do allow you to correct mistakes. Using your logic of "(even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again)" He has two choices of how to do this:

1. Wait one week rebuy and re-reincarnate this time paying attention to important things like the character he is building.

2. Restart the entire process again. Delete the character, reroll it, and start from scratch. Thereby truely restarting the ENTIRE process again.

Seems to me the devs were very vigilante in giving options to restart to correct mistakes.

Don't mind him he's a re-start.

[Hendrik]

There is a big fat warning when you reincarnate that any mistakes cannot be undone. How someone can put 18 int instead of wisdom on a cleric is beyond me, unless they were braindead at the time.

Next time, don't reincarnate when you are impaired.

If you were NOT impaired at the time, and that is your normal 100% functioning self, then you should refrain from chewing gum while walking. It's for your safety and the safety of the ones nearest and dearest to you.


Reading is fundamental....

;)

[Freeman]

I was discussing programming errors and exception handling with my coworkers yesterday. We all agreed on one thing: If you were to eliminate all the existing errors, bugs, and problems in a program(Which is impossible to do), then users will invent new ones. If you add a reset mechanism for the leveling process(Which I have no issue with them doing), then people are still going to come on the boards and complain because they realize they messed up immediately AFTER they leave the ship. Regardless of whether or not a method to reset things is there or not, Turbine is still not at fault for a user's mistake. You can only idiot-proof your software to a certain point. Ever heard this quote: "What's the difference between genius and stupidity? Genius has limits."

[Burtle]

I've LR'd three toons...and all came out just as I planned em...I put my stats where I wanted them, I put my skills points where I wanted them, I put my feats where I wanted them...I even saw a few things I would've overlooked before. All I can say is... if you do something to change your character in anyway... it's NOT permanent that you can't fix it... but for the love of broccoli... it's not anyone's fault but your own if you weren't paying attention to what you were doing.

If you think the Dev's "owe" you a fix... well to quote Judas Priest "You got another thing comin"

Dude/dudette ..when it all comes down to the wire... it's no-one's fault but your own when YOU make a mistake. I mean it's not like the Dev's were sittin over your shoulder w/ a 9mm and sayin "PUSH THAT BUTTON MAN...DO IT!!!!" "HAAIL NO" u did it all by your widdle self.

So wait your week and spend your precious turbine points and have a sucker while you wait

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff294/virualt/p448_Lollipop.jpg

[Sirea]

I fail to see why this engenders so much angst from you people.

This is a trivial to implement improvement to the UI, that would save much frustration in the future.

Why is shouted down on the premise that people should be more careful or do you think you contibution to the thread was helpful, informative or justified (rather than insulting and immature)?



Ever done a reincarnation of a high level character? (I have done 3)

In an up to 20 level process you can only reset during the 1st level.

Any error made/discovered during the other (up to) 19 levels require at least US$9 and 1 week to fix.

Your examples are non sequitur.

The devs could put in all the idiot buttons they wanted, and it still won't fix stupid. Someone will still screw up, and still complain that it's Turbine's fault. That's what's wrong with people these days, they want to blame anyone or anything instead of admitting that they ****ed up and have to pay the price. That's why products have to have stupid, obvious warnings all over them (McDonald's coffee anyone?).

[Spineflayer]

One of the bigest problems with the world today (IMHO) is people not taking personal responsiblilty for thier own actions. It's ALWAYS someone elses fault and someone elses responsibilty to fix our eff ups. Quite pathetic really.
The True res and lesser res processes have MANY warnings and chances to check your changes as you go. Ive done 3 tr's and 1 lr so far and have not had any issues where I was confused as to what I needed to do or where I should check on my changes before I continued. Proper prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance kiddies. If you are too lazy to plan ahead and check your changes as you go then, unfortunate it may be for you, it is NO ONES fualt but your own. Not trying to be a jerk, just stating the facts as I see them.

Oh, and as stated by others before me. turbine has implemented a reset option. It's called waiting a week and rezzing again. No need to add anything else for the planningly challenged.

Spineflayer

[markusthelion]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/Funny_Pictures_29017.jpg

lmfao! +1 for making me blow coffee out my nose. Seriously that hurt *kudos*

[gemineye]

He could have checked his character at my.ddo.com and compared the new version versus the old one before he finished the process.

[gavagai]

I think this is a bad scenario. There are no angels here, and I'm not going to take sides. But I think its a big difference when we're talking about something people pay money for versus purely in-game activities.

Trust is how markets work. In the U.S. people spend more and are more willing to part with their money because, for better or worse, we've got laws and blogs and a culture that emphasize accountability for value offered. Want to know why other societies don't have as much economic vitality as the U.S., you'll see it correlated with distrust and a "blame the buyer, not the seller" attitude.

Turbine could easily tell the OP its his fault; he wasted his own $9. That's within their rights. But for a game catering to non-native English speakers and people who often play when they are sleepy/relaxing, seems like a bad choice to alienate consumers if they aren't OMG SRS BZNSS UBER ATTENTIVE when they play. Isn't that, after all, a vital new influx of revenue?

Turbine wants people to give them money for well-designed products. Clerics with 18INT is not Turbine's concern; but the fact that instead of an "undo" or "back" button the solution is spending another $9 seems downright cold. Should they care if players gimp their characters permanently? No. But they should care to keep player accidents to an avoidable minimum, so players can consume more products.

I'm not in favor of making all content easy for comatose players, or eliminating "personal responsibility" or some such. This isn't a plea for easy buttons. In this case, a player spends $9 for a chance to rebuild a character. Its a new process that many players will not know about. And its a process that has spawned at least a couple peeved threads on the forums about ending up with 16/2/2 builds instead of 18/2 &c. Simple features like a "back" or "undo" button should be a no-brainer for Turbine.

Whoa... where did this soap box come from...?!? :O :D

[Therilith]

If you make any kind of mistake. Albeit small. Once that char is created they will not help you fix it!!! you have to wait a week! with a Gimpy toon! Qnd then dole out more ddo points so unless you've got everything planned

How is that any different from how regular leveling up has worked since... forever, really?

Sucks that you made a mistake, but at least now you have a way to fix it.

[Spineflayer]

Uhhhhhmmmmmm....every page of the character creation screen and the level up pages have a back button to the previous pages so you can go back and make changes if you feel you've made a mistake. Including the true rez and lesser rez pages. Why does turbine need to add something that is already there? I dont understand the train of thought here that says there should be more time put into creating something that is already available. :rolleyes:

Spineflayer

[KoboldTrapper]

>_> not to be the "captain obvious is obvious" here, but as I recall, Rez means resurection, which is a cleric spell, but reincarnate is what I'm fairly certain we are talking about.

lol.

Perhaps this player wants that spell removed instead? heh. regardless, fail on his/her part.

[Gremmlynn]

To many people are looking at this from the perspective of "right and wrong" or "lack of personal responsibility" IMO. I think the correct perspective should be; how much effort would a back or restart button take to implement and is it worth that much effort to keep customers happy. It really doesn't matter who is right or wrong or who may lack personal responsibility as this isn't a test of one's character, it's a business and what keeps the customer happy and paying is the only real issue here.

[Anderei]

Turbine should IMHO put in an option at the end of the process "something went wrong, lets restart pls" or "fine I'm going with this".
Shouldn't be so hard to code I think and would be fair enough.

Of course you should pay attention and not do errors, but that one might be done a little more forgiveable, don't see what is gained by taken this possibility.

[Hurtzz]

Thanx for the Neg rep btw

HAHAHAHA Lost 12 Just for telling it like it is. No wonder why this world is going to .....

Hurtzz

[EAB]

LMAO, Dude you made my night. I agree best not to do this while you are stoned or drunk.

[piggiecrdf2]

To many people are looking at this from the perspective of "right and wrong" or "lack of personal responsibility" IMO. I think the correct perspective should be; how much effort would a back or restart button take to implement and is it worth that much effort to keep customers happy. It really doesn't matter who is right or wrong or who may lack personal responsibility as this isn't a test of one's character, it's a business and what keeps the customer happy and paying is the only real issue here.


Turbine should IMHO put in an option at the end of the process "something went wrong, lets restart pls" or "fine I'm going with this".
Shouldn't be so hard to code I think and would be fair enough.

Of course you should pay attention and not do errors, but that one might be done a little more forgiveable, don't see what is gained by taken this possibility.

Can you people really read the thread and replies before you post? The OP is DEMANDING a reset AFTER the character is created, aka the WHOLE process is FINISHED! As I've said on my previous reply, this would only start on more demands to "please" the careless (or whatever adjective you want to insert here) players if they don't learn to pay a price for what they've done.

So next thing will be a button to reset your character lv by 1 after you finished leveling; then next will be resetting as many levels as you want with 1 easy button too. Wow, don't even need lesser incarnation anymore now. What's coming up next? Demanding for a button that can roll your character back 10mins, so you don't die and fail the raid, just because turbine can do it and it'll please a lot people. What's next? 1 click button and you're lv20, because you'll be even happier with it?

There's no limit to please people, as we always want more, that's why rules and regulations are set. Sure some adjustments should be made along the road but not for this case, after given numeral warning when he's incarnating the toon and he had enough chances to fix his problem.

There's 1 thing I do agree is, to add a restart-all button right before the whole process is finished, right before completing the lv20 (or whatever lv you're currently at) points distribution. Sorry he's just gotta suck it up for his case either way.

[Sithias]

I'm strangely reminded of a certain thread about The Tear of Dhakaan....Easy Button needed.....Blame Turbine!

But seriously, I've only leveled one character to level 20 and I TR'd him before update 3. Now, in the time leading up to my reincarnation, I created not one, not two, but THREE play-testing monks, plus viewed the builds on the forums, just to get the feel for the class. I am by no means new to playing monks, but PNP 1st and 2nd Edition is much different that DDO/3rd Edition, which I had never played. I settled on the Rockan Robin build, TR'd, followed the stat, feat, etc. allocations almost to a "T", (made some personal changes to suit me).

So, if after doing all of that, all the research, testing builds, etc., if I had screwed up, would I have myself or Turbine to blame? I am gonna say, "Myself".

Reading comprehension and paying attention in DDO is more intense than in any other MMO I've played as far as creating a character. So, I say wait a week, the system is working as intended. 18 Intelligence on a cleric warms my heart....as much as a Barbarian with 18 Charisma...

[rage9]

Because most programmers realise that people make mistakes and design the UI to allow users to correct those mistakes (even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again).

Good to see you decided to empathize with the OP, rather than take cheap shots, and did not rub his nose in a mistake he obviously wishes he had not made (as it cost him at least 900TPs and a week).

Hey, I said sorry, I felt his pain. Even gave him a positive outlook on the subject. He WILL have alot of skill points now!!!!!

For that I get neg rep? :rolleyes:

[WillStone]

Sorry man, while I sympathise with you that an error occured, the reality it that you did it to yourself. Stand up, live tall, accept a blunder, learn from it and move on. It is a growing process....so is life. One week is a very short time, roll a new character and wait it out. Make it a positive note rather than being salty and not realiizing your problem solving to a GAME. Its your choice...

[TechNoFear]

That's why products have to have stupid, obvious warnings all over them (McDonald's coffee anyone?).

Big companies want a limit to the amount of compensation you can claim if they hurt/kill you. They use this case to support that limit.

I suggest you read the actual case of Stella Liebeck (and others also scalded by McDonalds coffee).

I have spilt coffee on myself but never required skin grafts and 2 months in hospital to recover (as Liebeck did).


@rage9
Next you will be correcting me for using 'colour', not understanding it is a correct spelling in many parts of the world...

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/empathise

[Sweetsoul86]

I'm sorry but true, lesser, lesser +1 and lesser +3 are all the "reset" buttons turbine should have to give us. Look back to the past 4 years, when has it ever been so easy to correct our mistakes? I true reincarnated my original toon from nearly 2 years ago, a cleric and brought her back as a better cleric. When I did the tr I had a "special" moment and gave her more int than I really should have because I like skill points and have an unnatural obsession with them so by level 10 my friends and bf were making fun of me for having such a high int on my cleric and I did a lesser reincarnate, took my sweet time and now she's better than ever. I did not complain to turbine because I screwed up my tr because it was MY fault, MY mistake and MY own stupidity that screwed up my character. So what if it costs you a week and $9 US? Isn't that much better than having no options at all where all you can do is live with it or re-roll the toon? I don't see any legitimate reason for turbine to sacrifice money in their pockets because you couldn't tell the difference between INT and WIS, you should have taken more time and been more careful, I cannot empathize with your want for a free handout, I can however sympathize about making mistakes on ones cleric and like others have said you should simply learn your lesson and be more careful next time around.

[dj.kickz]

Good to see you decided to empathise with the OP, rather than take cheap shots, and did not rub his nose in a mistake he obviously wishes he had not made (as it cost him at least 900TPs and a week).

working as intended, its called the idiot tax.

[Gremmlynn]

I did not complain to turbine because I screwed up my tr because it was MY fault, MY mistake and MY own stupidity that screwed up my character. So what if it costs you a week and $9 US? Isn't that much better than having no options at all where all you can do is live with it or re-roll the toon? I don't see any legitimate reason for turbine to sacrifice money in their pockets because you couldn't tell the difference between INT and WIS, you should have taken more time and been more careful, I cannot empathize with your want for a free handout, I can however sympathize about making mistakes on ones cleric and like others have said you should simply learn your lesson and be more careful next time around.It's not about who's right, who's responsible or who screwed up. It's about whether Turbine feels the chance of getting another $9 out of this customer is worth the risk of losing all future income from them, or if the cost of having CS reps fix customer mistakes is worth what future income that service will provide.

As to those who keep asking where will this end. Last MMO I played let one respec everything but race, class and profession for in-game gold and every change made to the system just made it cheaper and easier. Not because the devs thought players should be less aware of character choices. But because the customers overwhelmingly liked it that way and the company felt customer satisfaction was worth more than whatever advantages they would get out of not having the system in place. Personally I'd rather have satisfied customers, than customers I've given lessons in personal responsibility to.

[Giiros]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a100/Defclone/Funny_Pictures_29017.jpg

Lmfao, that is priceless!

[Mentor61]

And why should they help you fix it?
This is not the type of game where you can make a mistake and then whine to a dev simply because YOU made a mistake.

Welcome to *A*DD, oh no I made a mistake:P

Hurtzz

Fixed. :D

[BangsLiekWhoa]

Yay. Another person wanting to blame someone else for their mistakes. Its not like Turbine has warnings everywhere saying reincarnation changes cannot be undone... oh wait, they do?! Imagine my surprise.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Big companies want a limit to the amount of compensation you can claim if they hurt/kill you. They use this case to support that limit.

I suggest you read the actual case of Stella Liebeck (and others also scalded by McDonalds coffee).

I have spilt coffee on myself but never required skin grafts and 2 months in hospital to recover (as Liebeck did).


@rage9
Next you will be correcting me for using 'colour', not understanding it is a correct spelling in many parts of the world...

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/empathise


I also pre-suppose you've never put fresh coffee between your legs, in your groin area, and then attempted to drive over speed-bumps either. Of course, Law Schools love this case as a prime example of the failure of common sense in a courtroom permitting any sort of ridiculousness to become an "earner" for you and your client.

But back on topic, and I know this example was thrust upon you in a very non sequitur fashion, it has little or nothing to do with this particular example. Let us not forget the LR/GR/TR process is a result of 3+ years of the DDO community asking for a way to respec our toons. The process that we are given is not perfect, but it is very much in keeping with D&D both PnP and DDO in that once a step has been made you cannot go back without it being a second motion (the next turn as it were). Luckily, they did provide ample second, third and in some levels fourth chances to review the details of the respec and to go back (albeit within that level only) and correct a problem.

The OP had a problem that was initiated by an improper input of STAT points into INT instead of WIS at first level. This gave the OP 4 chances at that level to notice the error and go back and correct it before committing to a path, if you will, for his toon. It is a shame that the OP failed to notice the error until much later in the respec, and I think we would all be very upset had we erred that badly, but it is still the OP's responsibility to spec his toon properly and not Turbine's. Thus the OP's appeal to Turbine to allow him to respec his respec because of an error discovered at a later time is absurd. Turbine did, in fact, respond to the community's outcry for a respec and gave us LR/GR/TR and if we make a mistake we simply wait a week and spend X# Turbine Points to correct it rather than the old method of deletion and re-rolling from scratch.

Does this, then, preclude the inclusion of an "oops" button at the end of the process? No. But that would certainly fly in the face of the history and concept of the role-playing game we know and love as D&D. If we make a mistake in a PnP game, the DM makes us pay for it in some fashion, and we have to go through various and sundry quests or trials to achieve what we are seeking as a correction (at least that was the suggestion from Chainmail to 3.5, haven't read all of the 4.0 DMs Guide yet), and in DDO we have our own method of corrctive questing...getting the "level" Druidic Heart of Wood either via Turbine Points or turn-ins of epic tokens or the Egg hunt and talking to Krug in House Jorasco.

The bottom line is that Turbine has caved in far too often and gone way to far in offering an easy button to this game and there comes a time when the player must finally say "my bad" and set about fixing a simple problem using the simple in-game tools alerady in place.

[die]

uhm........not a good idea to lesser res when ur stoned I would say is a more appropriate statement. Failing to see why you think this is anyone elses fault but your own?
Sorry dude, that sucks but think of all the skill points ya got now lmfao :D

lmao..:)

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

I fail to see why this engenders so much angst from you people.

This is a trivial to implement improvement to the UI, that would save much frustration in the future.

Why is shouted down on the premise that people should be more careful or do you think you contibution to the thread was helpful, informative or justified (rather than insulting and immature)?



Ever done a reincarnation of a high level character? (I have done 3)

In an up to 20 level process you can only reset during the 1st level.

Any error made/discovered during the other (up to) 19 levels require at least US$9 and 1 week to fix.

Your examples are non sequitur.

First off, not everyone is being insulting and immature, but for the ones who are, you must realize that unfortunately, that is the type of response that anonymous forum use engenders, and most likely always will...no accountability and all. Best idea in most cases are to try to ignore the immature ones or take them with a grain of salt. (some are quite funny as long as you realize that bluster on a forum means nothing.) ;)

Secondly, I think the idea most are trying to make is that there is a fine line between taking responsibility for one's own actions and blaming one's problems on someone else. At some point, people DO need to learn from their mistakes and learn to be more accountable, rather than simply demanding another way out. I feel bad for the OP, I really do, but something like this will remind him in the future to double check, which is something many of us figured out a long time ago...and not just in this situation.

I work tech support all day long, often dealing with programs with bad code, and in most cases, I take time to point out to users how to avoid this kind of problem in the future, while doing my best to fix their current issue. This is not a skill issue, this is a simple "pay attention and make sure you are doing it right" issue. I would applaud Turbine if they come up with a way to fix mistakes like this in the future, but for now, I would hope that the OP takes this as a learning experience instead of blamin someone else for his troubles.

[systemstate]

Wow, you guys really gave the OP a beating on this one. I see that he was annoyed about the situation as well, but it seems to me that he was making sure everyone else was aware this could happen to them as well if they didn't pay attention during lesser reincarnation.

More like, "Hey- everyone make sure you don't do what I did or your screwed for a week."

[rimble]

Just went through my first LR +3. Of course I was on high alert after reading several threads regarding problems, so I did read everything very carefully. I also had a detailed plan to follow. I can't fathom being so careless as to max your Int instead of your Wis, that's just crazy, but it is what it is.

I do think it all worked fine, I only had one stupid problem that prompts me to bring up a stupid possible change: it might be nice to have a bank on the airship. Yes, I know, that sounds stupid. I was remaking my character with 16 Dex, and when I went to take ITWF realized I had forgotten to eat a +1 Dex tome! So when rebuilding I took a temporary Feat in its place, and then visited Fred to fix it after I LR'd (and had read a tome)...but it would have been very very nice to be able to grab the tome with another character, drop it in the shared bank, and have my character on the boat be able to retrieve and read it. I accept full responsibility for this blunder.

I must admit, though, knowing that there is absolutely no room for error made it a pretty nerve-wracking experience.

To address possible mistakes, I wonder if after you LR they could give you another LR token of the same type (+1, +2, or +3) that is BtC and maybe disappears after 6 hours or so, maybe less. That way you could go do it again if you really screwed up. Maybe even give you a couple hours to try out a new spec if you want--not sure if such a 'test-drive' function is something Turbine is interested in providing, but it sounds neat to me.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

To many people are looking at this from the perspective of "right and wrong" or "lack of personal responsibility" IMO. I think the correct perspective should be; how much effort would a back or restart button take to implement and is it worth that much effort to keep customers happy. It really doesn't matter who is right or wrong or who may lack personal responsibility as this isn't a test of one's character, it's a business and what keeps the customer happy and paying is the only real issue here.

Not for nothing, but if they took the stance of "The Customer is Always Right", as you say here, then we'll end up with a game that changes from one hour to the next. There are so many differing opinions on what each person wants that one day we'd be playing a super challenging game where only casters are allowed, then the next we'd be playing a game where everything is super easy, and people can make Dragon characters. Keeping the customer happy in any situation is an exercise in mediation and compromise.

In this case, the code may or may not be difficult, but in the end it may come out to be a problem of how to police the reset and keep people from exploiting it. What would the timer be on the reset? 1 minute? 5 minutes? a day? If it is long enough, some people may start using such a thing to "swap out" classes so that they can run with rogue skills on one quest, then use wands on the next, and then go back to their original character afterwards. That would not be working as intended. Also, if they go that route, it opens up a whole new argument of:

Well, I gimped my character, but didn't realize until after the timer ran out...Turbine Screwed my character!!! They should change the timer to X minutes!!!

No truly simple way out for them, but if people learned to be accountable for themselves and double checked things that are irreversible, then this would be a non-issue.

[Mentor61]

Wow, you guys really gave the OP a beating on this one. I see that he was annoyed about the situation as well, but it seems to me that he was making sure everyone else was aware this could happen to them as well if they didn't pay attention during lesser reincarnation.

More like, "Hey- everyone make sure you don't do what I did or your screwed for a week."

The OP took a beating because he was either high,drunk or not the sharpest tool in the box.To not realize you max a stat that isn't your main is something.To not realize you have a bazillion skill points more is another thing.But to then come back and blame Turbine...I believe that's what he is taking heat for.Rightfully so in my book.Turbine can't possibly add more confirmation boxes than there already is.And a bit of reading up on something important you wish to undertake goes a long way.

[Shaamis]

Because most programmers realise that people make mistakes and design the UI to allow users to correct those mistakes (even if that requires them to re-start the entire process again).

Good to see you decided to empathise with the OP, rather than take cheap shots, and did not rub his nose in a mistake he obviously wishes he had not made (as it cost him at least 900TPs and a week).

Most programmers only care about end users when they HAVE to, thats why we call them LUSERS.

DDO is not Turbo Tax. It doesnt check for faults, it just asks you, are you SURE, in big red letters. It's up to the USER, to check, and confirm.

The Rez process asks you multiple times to check,and confirm your correctness, because once you hit save, you will be charged, it will save, and you will HAVE to wait.

OP should have really went back, and CHECKED it to make sure it was OK, before pressing save, like the BIG RED LETTERS say.

Other than the game, going back and checking his work, that he should have done, you cant hold a persons hand any more.

DDO is not TurboTax.

[Nonan]

Big companies want a limit to the amount of compensation you can claim if they hurt/kill you. They use this case to support that limit.

I suggest you read the actual case of Stella Liebeck (and others also scalded by McDonalds coffee).

I have spilt coffee on myself but never required skin grafts and 2 months in hospital to recover (as Liebeck did).


@rage9
Next you will be correcting me for using 'colour', not understanding it is a correct spelling in many parts of the world...

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/empathise

But you probably didnt put a styrofoam cup of hot coffee in between your legs while driving either. Although I am sorry she got hurt, she does have some of the responsibility in that case especially since she said she had been to McDonalds before and the coffee is always hot.

[TechNoFear]

In this case, the code may or may not be difficult, but in the end it may come out to be a problem of how to police the reset and keep people from exploiting it. What would the timer be on the reset? 1 minute? 5 minutes? a day?

No timer required, just a cancel button that returns you to the 1st level again (during the leveling process). Appears some posters don't know how the system works and assume the OP got to the end of the process before finding the error.

Currently if you start in character creation and rebuild a 1st lvl character.
Then you go the the ship and level 1 at a time back to your previous level.
Should you make a mistake during one of these levels there is no way to restart the process.
(ie If you reincarnate a 20 character but make a mistake during creation, then discovered this error at lvl 2, you have no way to fix it.)

A reset button (returning to the start of character creation) would allow you to fix any error made during the leveling process.

Once you have finished the process and left the boat any errors are your responsibility.



I also pre-suppose you've never put fresh coffee between your legs, in your groin area, and then attempted to drive over speed-bumps either.

I suggest you read the case as you appear to have incorrect information.

Stella Liebeck (79) was a passenger and the car was stationary when the accident occurred.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

I suggest you read the case as you appear to have incorrect information. Stella Liebeck (79) was a passenger and the car was stationary when the accident occurred.

It has been a long time since I studied the case, thank you for correcting me. But I still recall the words of the Philosophy of Law professor at the time, "Stupid is as stupid does...and all attorneys thank the good Lord for that!"

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

No timer required, just a cancel button that returns you to the 1st level again (during the leveling process). Appears some posters don't know how the system works and assume the OP got to the end of the process before finding the error.



Actually, I could be wrong, but it sounds to me like he did finish:


If you make any kind of mistake. Albeit small. Once that char is created they will not help you fix it!!!

Also, I am simply going by what other posters have said, but it sounds like you CAN cancel the process at multiple points. I apologize if this is not correct. I tend to try to live with my mistakes. When GR becomes available, I might go that route, using what I know now to modify the toons I made 4 years ago, but until then, I'll have to accept that somewhere between the people that say there are up to 4 chances to cancel, and you saying there is none, lies the truth. ;)

If there is absolutely no way to cancel and start over, even though you have not finished the LR, then I will agree, that sounds like a problem, but as it stands, I think the OP DID finish, and afterwards realized that he messed up, and wants Turbine to fix it.

[TechNoFear]

If there is absolutely no way to cancel and start over, even though you have not finished the LR, then I will agree, that sounds like a problem, but as it stands, I think the OP DID finish, and afterwards realized that he messed up, and wants Turbine to fix it.

Unless the system changed from the last Lama release there is no way to cancel once past the 1st lvl. Each level is final. You can go back during a single level (as per normal leveling) but each level is set and can not be undone.

You have no choice but to continue or you are stuck on the boat, unable to call a GM.



But I still recall the words of the Philosophy of Law professor at the time, "Stupid is as stupid does...and all attorneys thank the good Lord for that!"

Einstein said "there are two things I consider without limits, the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former".

Liebeck is used to discredit the jury damage award system (and so to limit company liability).

You have to read the details to understand why a jury awarded Liebeck damages equal to one days profit from coffee at McDonalds.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Einstein said "there are two things I consider without limits, the universe and human stupidity, but I am not sure about the former".

Liebeck is used to discredit the jury damage award system (and so to limit company liability).

You have to read the details to understand why a jury awarded Liebeck damages equal to one days profit from coffee at McDonalds.

Yah, I went back and read my notes from that class...3 cheers for online data storage of old notes!...and still am very amused by the idiocy of both plaintiff and jury, but AWESOME Einstein quote! I need to read his non-scientific work more often.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Yah, I went back and read my notes from that class...3 cheers for online data storage of old notes!...and still am very amused by the idiocy of both plaintiff and jury, but AWESOME Einstein quote! I need to read his non-scientific work more often.

Definitely...Einstein was actually quite the philosopher. He's right up there with Nietsche in my book. ;)

[TechNoFear]

All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Friedrich Nietzsche

You can't always write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say, so sometimes you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream.
Frank Zappa

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Well, while we are on the topic of LR...

About a week ago I LR'd my sorc, Hordazzle, and he is doing just fine.

But...

Yes, you saw that one coming.

I had thought I could live without at least a few points in tumble and just buffing myself with the tumble spell when I needed it...but I, mea culpa, keep forgetting to put it on and hop everywhere at least once or twice before I remember to buff myself with it. Thus, I am going to re-LR tonight.

Is this Turbine's fault that I had neglected my Tumble skill? No.
Is this Turbine's fault that in order to correct said error I need to purchase a Lesser Reincarnation from the Turbine Store? No.
Is this my fault entirely for underestimating my need for a particular spec on my toon? Yes.
Is this an easy button allowing me to fix either inconsequential trivia on my toon at the same time as I would be able to address major design flaws in the build? Yes.

Suffice it to say, I am a very happy 4+ year vet now that we have an easy-button respec which only inconvenience in performing is time and few Turbine points.

[Gremmlynn]

What I don't understand is the reason for the one week wait. I would think if someone wanted to respec for every quest they entered Turbine would be more than happy to take their $9. It's not like the mobs are going to complain it's unfair that players can so easily respec to counter them.

[DartanTR]

Excellent troll. Insert successful troll picture

[Perib]

Here is a partial thread summary I made while I was bored waiting for the servers to come back up. They have been up now, so I'm stopping :D

Thread Summary:
1(OP!). OP makes a huge mistake LR. Stated consequences: no reset after complaints to GM, must wait a week and shell more real cash, caster that can't cast until then (presumably). Suggests not to LR.
2. Int gives skill points, at least, op.
3. Troll.
4. Improve LR ui. Troll bait consumed and regurgettated.
5. Puts words into OP's mouth.
6. Troll.
7. No band-aids (in this case a surgeon) are design flaws.
8. Troll. Puts words into OPs mouth.
9. Troll. Makes a false analogy to the real world.
10. Troll.
11. Troll.
12. Pay attention. Improve LR UI.
13. Troll.
14. It's fair. Learn from your mistakes. Puts words into OP's mouth. Pay attention.
15. GM's fixing mistakes consume their time.
16. OP messed up. Suggests an in-game quest that is a respec, with a monthly cooldown.
17. Troll.
18. Troll.
19. Troll.
20. Troll. Makes false analogies and greases the slopes.
21. Anecdote reinforcing OP's main point.
22. Points our how immature and unhelpful most responses are.
23. Snarky troll.
24. Attempt to defend fail arguements.
25. Miss uses the spirit of an early ui idea.
26. Reinstates warning.
27. Slippery slope? "fault" shows up again...(sigh). Half-troll.
28. TLDR.. Troll
29. Half-Troll
30. Half-Troll
31. Troll hair.
32. Suggests way to prevent this mistake before finishing.
33. Attempts a neutral stance, realizes/states the economical importance of the issue.
34. Troll.
35. Back/undo already in place for TR LR!
36. Troll.
37. Also states the $$ at stake.
38. UI/More forgiving?
39. Half-Troll follow up.
40. Troll
41. Ironic Half-Troll.
42. Troll
43. Half-troll follow up.
44. Half-troll.
45. Irrelavent, yet true.
46. Misses the core issue.
47. Troll.
48. $$ and happy customers, not lessons in personal responsibility
49. Troll-hair.
50. Troll.
51. Troll.
52. Some systems in place. Other systems also in place. Enough is enough, op. You're bad.
53. Troll-hair.
54. Points out trolls. Responsibility and blame are close, but you need to learn.
55. Actually read and reinstates OP!
56. Suggests an additional item that is time sensitive and allows you to respec/test drive.

One thing no one has yet mentioned is warnings on the stat selection or following screens. This could be like when you go to multiclass and it says "your wisdom isn't high enough to cast xx level spells" are you sure?

I think most people overlook the fact that this real world money, or at least a relatively very large investment (+3 lesser hearts aren't cheap for most). Considering this, it's mostly different than making a mistake on a new character, thus the "rerolling" and "just do it again in a week" solutions aren't really valid arguments IMO.

I particularly am partial to posts mentioning money (ddo survives by money, which they may not get from this player again, or players who are too scared of the processes). I also like the last one I summarized which is an item that has a timer and allows you to respec again within a limited amount of time. This alleviates the pressure and might make more people willing to spend that precious green. "But people could abuse this! (Is a player switching into a ton of classes in a short amount of time really a problem anyway? They have to decide when the time is out)". Just make another system to prevent this:

Perhaps each time you do a "Test" run the time on the item could half. If it starts at 24 hours and you mess up, you then have 12 hours. You mess up again. You have 6 hours. You mess up again... so on. Who cares which classes they choose inbetween and for how long? (Examples: dual spec in wow, respeccing in town at any time in guild wars. Of course this doesn't let you change a couple classes - however it will still be only up to 3 levels of class change!)

A system like this is in place for bind on equip epics dropping from dungeons in WOW (I think the time you can trade items to anyone who was eligible at the time is something like 6 hours? I forget). Before they implemented this, people would open up tickets for mis-looted/whatever items. Obviously this is a huge time drain for GMs. They would be restored/swapped for players a limited number of times depending on how many times you've had items restored and how long you've been a subscriber. In DDO it could be how long or how much some one has paid.

DDO has "buyback" options for selling mistakes to vendors. This is similar in that it decays over time (you can't buyback an item you sold a week ago).

This generates money and retains players (main goals for ddo), and thus is valid to look into. However, retaining me might take a search engine for the auction house. :D

[epochofcrepuscule]

I know if I had spent that many Turbine points on something like a reincarnation, that'd I'd make paying attention to that task my top priority, and double and triple check everything before I hit OK.


This is what someone with even a minute amount of common sense would do. Is it really Turbines fault you did not do this OP? No, no that would be yours.

There are about 5 million "are you sure?" windows you need to click on. What those are for are for you to double check... ya know, be absolutely sure.

I would like to close with this.... So i shall!


If you were NOT impaired at the time, and that is your normal 100% functioning self, then you should refrain from chewing gum while walking. It's for your safety and the safety of the ones nearest and dearest to you.

[Kyrn]

What I don't understand is the reason for the one week wait. I would think if someone wanted to respec for every quest they entered Turbine would be more than happy to take their $9. It's not like the mobs are going to complain it's unfair that players can so easily respec to counter them.

Because sometimes the game is more important than individual players. It's just like if DDO suddenly decided to sell rank-ups in the DDO store, hence having a bunch of players at level 20 who has no idea what they are doing.

@Perib
The problem with such an implementation is that it is still abusable. Alternatively, I would suggest a test arena where players can test out their new characters. (basically a quest with no exp, and a lot of optionals, for healing, killing, trap-disabling, trap-dodging, banishing, etc). Completion of the quest (taking to NPC at the end and agreeing that you are satisfied with the character) signifies completion of character building, and is hence non-reversible.

In addition, a reset button should be relatively easy to implement; Simply have a separate NPC during the leveling quest which allows you to reincarnate all over again.

[captain1z]

Next time you'll see someone demanding to be teleported back inside the dungeon because he clicked finish out before looting his +4 tome, .

This has happened a few times already.............the threads are here on the boards somewhere.

[SeqenenreTao]

A good friend of mine once said:

"Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid."

OMG, this thread is a gold mine for one liners!!! "Gold Jerry, Gold!"

"In the wild, there is no health care. In the wild, health care is, 'Ow, I hurt my leg. I can't run. A lion eats me. I'm dead.' Well, I'm not dead. I'm the lion. You're dead. "

I think this quote sums up this situation nicely. The OP hurt his leg, let the frenzy continue, lions.

-SEQ.

[dulgar]

Sorry, cant feel bad for ya. uve been in game since 2007? the whole point of lesser ressing is to fix ur screw ups.... if u screw up in the process of LR, why the hell would a dev fix that??? lmao, bet thats a mistake u dont make again.

[Gremmlynn]

Because sometimes the game is more important than individual players. It's just like if DDO suddenly decided to sell rank-ups in the DDO store, hence having a bunch of players at level 20 who has no idea what they are doing.Nice statement, but how would either hurt the game? The game is played by small groups in individual instances. The only reason I can think of for not selling the level ups is for Turbine to stretch out the process to hook players into long term spending. I can think of no down side for allowing respecs to who ever wants to buy them as often as they want to shell out the cash. I don't see how either hurts the game from the perspective of the players as both would just be options that allow individuals to spend a few bucks to enhance their personal enjoyment.

So, how exactly does making someone who dislikes the outcome of a respec wait a week make the game better at the expense of this individual player?

[sinedist]

LR works fine.

I am absolutely amazed that this post is still being discussed. The OP was banal, immature, and whiny. And while this post made great troll bait, it's an absolute shame that this game is finally getting a feature that most to all other MMOs have and all people can do is complain that it's not fool proof.

The money concern is moot; I would think that time is more valued than $9, and when you factor in the time cost of greensteel items... there is a lot more to lose by accidentally miss-crafting an item. So people take their time, go slowly, and plan their items out. Why people would take character creation any less seriously than item creation is beyond me. Lesson: take your time. Plan things out. If $9 means that much to you, if the time to craft means enough to you, then take it seriously and do it right -- the first time.

If Turbine, much less the world, pandered to the most thoughtless of people, and created systems for the most accident-prone and irresponsible, it would be a much more hindering world than already exists; ideally, you teach people competency not create systems based on incompetence. At worst, this should be a lesson learned by an individual, a warning toward like-minded individuals, and nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with the system in place: there are warnings, explicit costs, familiar systems in place, and a number of undo points. No system will be fool-proof enough to be immune to human incompetency; fools will always find new ways to demonstrate incompetence with any system.

So... If you want a developer to hold your hand through creation processes, feel like complaining about costs and fool-proof systems that could never be fool-proof enough, then please find an alternative for your recreational entertainment. Probably a small handful of players are likely being forced to play (possibly at the threat of physical violence?), but the rest of you are more than welcome to find something else that you enjoy! That's the point of all of it, isn't it? Fun? If you aren't having it, seek it out elsewhere!

I've heard that Hello Kitty Online still accepts new members, and I think Neopets is still active. There's nothing wrong with going with something easier if you find yourself overwhelmed. We aren't born reading Dostoyevski; most of us start with the Bernstein Bears.

[Gremmlynn]

LR works fine.

I am absolutely amazed that this post is still being discussed. The OP was banal, immature, and whiny. And while this post made great troll bait, it's an absolute shame that this game is finally getting a feature that most to all other MMOs have and all people can do is complain that it's not fool proof.

The money concern is moot; I would think that time is more valued than $9, and when you factor in the time cost of greensteel items... there is a lot more to lose by accidentally miss-crafting an item. So people take their time, go slowly, and plan their items out. Why people would take character creation any less seriously than item creation is beyond me. Lesson: take your time. Plan things out. If $9 means that much to you, if the time to craft means enough to you, then take it seriously and do it right -- the first time.

If Turbine, much less the world, pandered to the most thoughtless of people, and created systems for the most accident-prone and irresponsible, it would be a much more hindering world than already exists; ideally, you teach people competency not create systems based on incompetence. At worst, this should be a lesson learned by an individual, a warning toward like-minded individuals, and nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with the system in place: there are warnings, explicit costs, familiar systems in place, and a number of undo points. No system will be fool-proof enough to be immune to human incompetency; fools will always find new ways to demonstrate incompetence with any system.

So... If you want a developer to hold your hand through creation processes, feel like complaining about costs and fool-proof systems that could never be fool-proof enough, then please find an alternative for your recreational entertainment. Probably a small handful of players are likely being forced to play (possibly at the threat of physical violence?), but the rest of you are more than welcome to find something else that you enjoy! That's the point of all of it, isn't it? Fun? If you aren't having it, seek it out elsewhere!

I've heard that Hello Kitty Online still accepts new members, and I think Neopets is still active. There's nothing wrong with going with something easier if you find yourself overwhelmed. We aren't born reading Dostoyevski; most of us start with the Bernstein Bears.So basically, if this game is to hard for you play something else as the developers only want the most competent uber gamers playing? Right, and $14.99/month is going to pay for the sort of competency filtering some players feel the devs owe them. I'm thinking for that kind of service one would be looking at a sub cost at least an order of magnitude higher. For what this game costs the idea is to make the game as fool-proof as possible to allow as many players to enjoy it, rather than have them spend their gaming dollars playing Hello Kitty. For those who want a gaming experience in which only the most careful and competent players are attracted, well expect to pay for all those players the game is designed to turn away.

[sinedist]

In order to not provoke further responses, I'm not posting after this... but I expected someone to think that I was making an elitist statement... so I'll address that here.

When you say, "For what this game costs the idea is to make the game as fool-proof as possible to allow as many players to enjoy it..." you have not said anything against my comments.

DDO is not an exceptionally complicated game. Certainly, for those who haven't played prior D&D based games, like myself, there is indeed a steep-learning curve -- but people are making it work, evidently. There are easier games, and somewhat more difficult games... and difficulty is relative, to complicate matters.

Relatively speaking, if you find this game too difficult, you may find other games less difficult or all games difficult. Some people find everything difficult. Some people enjoy certain kinds of difficulty, and some people enjoy the path of least resistance. Some people like apples, and some people like warm weather.

Find what you enjoy and do that. Enjoyment, after all, is the point.

This is the last part of what I was saying.

The first part was this: you, as the creator of a game/system/work of art, etc. etc. etc., create something to appeal to a particular audience. Wide or narrow as the appeal may be, there will always be some groups excluded. Luckily, there are many many many games/systems/works of art, etc. etc. etc. that have been created for many many many different groups of people.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to create something with enough general appeal to attract a large enough audience that everyone feels at home, that the system feels natural to everyone. People are different, and different people like and get on with different things. If you don't get on with DDO, get it on with something/one else. Nothing can pander to absolutely everyone.

Grocery stores love my money. But what if I went into the supermarket and complained that cooking was too hard, or that ingredients cost too much are are too easy to mess up in a dish, so they need to either reimburse me for the ingredients that I burnt or make cooking easier? I might be asked to leave... even though I have more money! I just choose not to cook, instead.

Everyone ****s, but everyone ****s differently.

Sincerely,
Sinedist.

edit: I can't believe they censor out "p-o-o-p"! (everyone does it; tubine doesn't want you to talk about it)

[Perib]

LR works fine.

The money concern is moot; I would think that time is more valued than $9, and when you factor in the time cost of greensteel items... there is a lot more to lose by accidentally miss-crafting an item. So people take their time, go slowly, and plan their items out. Why people would take character creation any less seriously than item creation is beyond me. Lesson: take your time. Plan things out. If $9 means that much to you, if the time to craft means enough to you, then take it seriously and do it right -- the first time.

If Turbine, much less the world, pandered to the most thoughtless of people, and created systems for the most accident-prone and irresponsible, it would be a much more hindering world than already exists; ideally, you teach people competency not create systems based on incompetence. At worst, this should be a lesson learned by an individual, a warning toward like-minded individuals, and nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with the system in place: there are warnings, explicit costs, familiar systems in place, and a number of undo points. No system will be fool-proof enough to be immune to human incompetency; fools will always find new ways to demonstrate incompetence with any system. .

I agree the OP might not even have had anything go wrong and is just a troll, but other posts exist with similar issues.

There isn't anything "wrong" with the system from what I know, but it could be improved without "hindering" anyone. Explain how the suggestions made hinder some one. If they can do more, they might look into it. Of course there is a point where enough is enough, however this point should be closer to where incompetent players don't complain because they know the failbacks are sufficient and still failed.

When do you hear some one complaining about selling loot to a vendor and not being able to get it back? If you do, I would bet the percent is very very low because of the system in place. IE system working. What if you accidentally mis clicked and sold an item that took you forever to get and there was no buyback tab? Failing your TR is a bit more than a misclick selling an item, but still the general idea of a time-decay, no gm involvement, undo still holds.

The money concern is the players AND turbines income. IE: Players quitting over a failure and not re-spending. We need the player's money so the developers can fix the so called "worthwhile" stuff.

Without a backup system, players who fail like OP are going to complain and waste GM time. That costs money. They will quit, costing future income. So it costs money either way.

I guess your point is that screwing up greenscale hurts more. Fine, and true circumstantially - but a separate issue, no? People should plan both, of course, and can fail in both. What's to stop them from making an undo tab here too? Does this go against the "mystery" of the devices? You put stuff in and you might get cooler stuff out? (I'm not into shroud yet so I'm genuinely asking..but I do have a lvl 20) Or you can use the shroud loot planner (thus removing any mystery) and not make a mistake, or still make a mistake as it may be :D. Or does the threat of screwing up make crafting *fun*? If you could just buy things back/undo it would remove this. Once again I think this is probably a separate animal.