Dear Fernando

[GoldyGopher]

You asked to hear our opinions ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2767750#post2767750) and I would like to offer my perspective. Beyond just my perspective I have asked many of my fellow veteran players their opinions as I prepared this, um long winded, response. I apologize for its length to begin with and I hope you forgive this “over achieving fan boy” for being extremely critical of DDO.

Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited [DDO] is turning four years old later this spring. There can be little doubt at this moment that the gamble taken by Turbine with DDO has paid big dividends by the conversion from a monthly subscription based game to hybrid model encompassing both month subscriptions and micro-transactions. With the successful transition DDO has seen an extremely successful relaunch as the number of players has dramatically increased compared to just a year ago or even at DDO original launch.
With the transition to the hybrid model Turbine has emphasized improvements to the new Player Experience and providing in game options that allow players to emulate game play in the manner to which they are accustomed from other games. To myself and other veteran players of DDO this focus has achieved the ultimate goal of bringing onboard hundreds of thousand new players to DDO. As we move forward the veterans of DDO desire to have their feelings and views towards the changes they feel should be included in the future planning cycle in order for DDO to become one of the top Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Games [MMORPG].


Jeff: This posting should be view in its entirety as the educated, or unedumKatd if you prefer, opinion of its author; as the author I am ultimately responsible for the content included in this analysis. I have asked members of my guild and a cross-section of other veteran players to provide their opinions and feedback but this document does not necessarily reflect their opinions unless noted

Veteran players, regarded as those players who played regularly before the transition to the hybrid model was announced, were attracted to DDO for a myriad of reasons; the three most popular responses that I received are character customization during the build process, the ability to pull together groups in smoky taverns to complete quests, and private instances for questing. I doubt you would find many players suggesting ease of play or cost on that list fo why they selected DDO over many other options.


Jeff: I was attracted to DDO because it was not in the mold of the prevalent games when I first came across DDO. I participated in the closed beta, back when Irestone Inlet was still a low level raid, but left when open beta started as I was less than enthused with how the game was progressing. I returned about six months after launch and have been an active player ever since. I won’t claim to be here when the servers get shut off, I mean EQ is still going strong 10 years later. I personally believe the fact that DDO was/is such anti-existing games could account for the fact that DDO was not widely received in a positive light when it was released.

As DDO has progressed over the first three years the game has continued to evolve and grow. Large amounts of additional content (Kate Paiz has noted the amount of content in DDO doubled), the introduction of Adventure Areas, improvements to the enhancement system, and Green Steel Crafting are often noted by veteran players as positive improvements to DDO.

The transition to the hybrid model has brought to DDO many changes which are frequently identified as making the introduction to the game easier for new players. The new player experience (Korthos Island, 2008), Prebuilt character paths, Glancing Blows, changes in debuffs from “permanent” to timed or “temporary” when applied to characters, relocation of quests, introduction of the “Casual” difficulty, and addition of many short duration quests highlight the list of many changes that improve the first experiences for many new players.


There is little doubt in my mind that without the success of the hybrid model of DDO that DDO was headed to the not so great graveyard of MMORPGs. Littered with the likes of Hellgate:London, Tabula Risa, and other multi-million dollar lossing games.

With Turbine’s apparent focus on the improving the experience for new players I believe many veteran players feel ignored and unheeded. As the rush of new players begin their transition towards “veteran” status it is important that Turbine renews it dedication to veteran players and works towards improving their experience in game as well as new players.

There are three primary issues or concerns that veteran players identified which they would like to see addressed in the future with DDO; some form of game balance to a number of categories, completion of previously announced initiatives, and reduction of lag.


Jeff: While not unanimous most of the veteran players I spoke with regardless of experience and time in game listed forms of these issues as their top concerns about the game. I was a little surprised that some of the top issues as listed on the DDO Forums did not get mentioned by few if any of the players, as such I expanded my polling group and still saw little inclination towards issue like bugs, lack of content, “nerfs” or other similar issues. It is not these items are not issues rather they are further down the list than I had originally anticipated.

Game Balance
There is a perceived notion by many of the new players to DDO that all things in game are balanced, which can be observed by watching the general and advice channels in Korthos Island and the Harbor, as experienced players we know that is far from the truth, the problem is expressing that information without effecting a players desire to play.
Not all things are equal in game and I would iterate my opinion that not all things should be equal; however there must be a reason for these inequities. From a player’s perspective addressing these huge imbalances between the classes, quests, loot, and overall game difficulty needs to be priority for Turbine. Many respondents actually had more items on their list concerning balance than the four issues listed appeared on virtually everyone’s list.

Completion of Announced Initatives
Over the past four years Turbine has announced or promised a great number of additions to the game, including new classes and races, spells, and enhancements to name a few. Many of these new additions have been started but the problem is we have yet to see the end product for most of these; Prestige Enhancements (Including Racial Prestige Enhancements), additional races (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Gnome, Monster Classes), completion of story lines (Kobolds, Shavarath), and the completion of in game functionality (Auction House, Mail Systems). It is depressing as players to get excited about these when they were announced then months or even years later we haven’t seen the item we have been so excited about.

Lag
No discussion or analysis of DDO at the high end game (Raids and Quests over level 15) is complete without mentioning the Lag problem experienced in those levels. Lag is lag, regardless of its source, type, and effect; and with Lag the result is a decrease in the fun for everyone involved. Whole pages of the DDO official forums have been filled with the topic and there is no point in beating it to death here; all we ask is the development team to play a few hours in “our characters shoes” and then work at addressing the problem.

If Turbine could work at addressing those three big issues with DDO it would go a very long way to making the veteran players extremely happy. As veteran players we realize it take time effort and money to fix things that are broken but even small steps are giant leaps as far as the player base is concerned right now.

[GoldyGopher]

Beyond the three primary issues are a myriad of lesser issues which effect game play. It would be dishonest to not provide some insight to a veteran view point into these concerns.

Do the Developers Play DDO?
It is unfortunate that the dominant feeling amongst the veteran players in DDO is that the Development Team is not playing DDO at the same level of competence as they are and I personally think it shows. I dislike comparing DDO to other games it impossible not to mention at least a few others, probably for reasons many are not expecting. Rob Pardo, the former Lead Designer for the “World of Warcraft” series, and currently Executive Vice President of Game Development at Blizzard was/is an extremely active WoW player, his gameplay in WoW, as well as those of other senior personnel at Blizzard, allowed for a much better insight into the player-base desires and demands. Regardless of your feeling towards WoW it is obvious that the development team at Blizzard has/had a better connection to the players and was nimble enough to address the player-bases most pressing concerns in WoW. Rob Pardo cites this connection in many interviews as one of the reasons WoW is so successful and other games less successful, I am reminded of the problems in Everquest circa 2004 and feel that a similar organized protest may come to DDO.

Where can we find the official answers to our questions
The Compendium is the offical guide to DDO, however there are so many questions just not answered the can at high levels greatly effect character design and play. How many attacks per minute for what ever character design is a great question currently that no official answer exists.
A frustration voiced by a number of both veteran and new players is the lack of current and complete information especially within the Compendium, which is the official source, and is now available in game. The inaccurate or contradicting information presented in the Official Game Entries is completely unacceptable. Additional where is the Monster’s Manual, the Quest section is currently in a state of disorder, how about an official Green Steel Crafting section. However my personal largest compliant is it takes too many clicks to find something, as the Senior Technologist for one of the largest research libraries in the world it irks my very inner sense of being to see something so poorly laid out.


Jeff: It would be great to see Dragon.Star topic “Definitive Static Rewards and named Loot List” ('http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121279') become an official part of the DDO Compendium. There is no doubt about the amount of time and effort presented in creating such useful tools. Something easily accessed in game via the new “Web Interface” which could be linked to the official entries within the Compendium. As well as several others entries that would make hunting for information so much easier.

Is that a fact?
The amount of poor, inaccurate, and downright bad information presented on the forum as “FACT” without response by Turbine resulting in too many players making incorrect choices. A few days ago there were twelve (such an appropriate number for Eberron) topics concerning Maximum or Best DPS/Damage in the Paladin Section considering many of the 12 had what I consider low DPS output which leads us to the problem there is no true way to validate those claims WITHOUT getting into a flame war. To solve this it would be awesome if Turbine presented us a series of Web-Based tool, maybe in my.ddo.com that allowed us to look at officially what are DPS, AC, HP, Saves, Gear, and so on and so forth could/would look like you would dramatically increase traffic to my.ddo.com and greatly benefit players giving “official” resource.

Jeff: While we are talking about my.ddo.com can we have the ability to print out our existing character’s Record or Character Sheets out in a PDF format that would be beyond awesome!

Moving from instance to instance
Many players that have come to DDO from other MMORPGs have expressed a feeling of claustrophobia or boxed in by the small public instances in comparison to the open landscapes of many other games. With the great number of relative small public instances it can create a sense of DDO being a small world. I have referred to this as the Load Screen Dilemma, where moving a short distance can require a player to see four or more load screens further enhancing the sense of it being a small world. I think that if Turbine were to create Stormreach (the Public instances of the Harbor, Inspired Quarter, The Marketplace, The Twelve, the four Dragon Marked Houses, Delara’s Graveyard, and The Necropolis) more of an open landscape it would greatly enhance the vision of how large our game world is. However from a Game Development Time and Cost perspective I totally understand not doing it.


Jeff: I understand that one of the problems with making “Stormreach Proper” an open landscape is the resulting server load it would cause; I think this could be addressed by adding further quests/zones in other locations spreading out the population of players some. For example adding a Low Level Adventure Zone to Zawabi’s Refugee as well as a High Level Zone would attract players there as well.

We need more OMG did you see that moments
In comparison to other MMORPGs at lower levels DDO is missing some of the awestruck moments that captures a players attention or fancy. Whether we are talking about Everquest [EQ], WoW, or even Turbine’s Lord of the Rings Online [LotRO] you have moments early on that just attract your attention that are missing in DDO. It was nice that Turbine introduced players to Dragons early on and made Yaaryar Schooner explode but there should be more of these moments early on in a players/character experience with DDO. It is these moments of awe that hold players in game while grinding for gear and XP later on. It would be a nice change to see the ramps in the harbor replaced by an elevator, a low level raid with a Young Dragon as an end boss, or dozens of other things that a high magic world should have.

Guild Housing
A topic that seems to have no middle ground amongst the veteran players is Character/Guild Housing. Some players can’t wait for it to be added, others don’t understand the appeal. I personally am looking forward to it for an odd ball reason, I think it will help right the economy in the game. If implemented similar to LotRO character/guild housing could pull millions of plat out of the economy, and it isn’t mandatory that every one participate. Not to mention more shared storage.

Jeff: If we are looking at a model similar to LotRO, it would be incredibly nice if “Guilds” could buy entire Neighborhoods and have the neighborhood named for the Guilds. IE The Twilight Avengers buy the entire neighborhood, there is one Guild hall and 48 homes, including Dwarven halls, Elven Tree Houses, Human Homes and so on and so forth.

Are Guilds Relevant?
When you look at a large number of other games the importance of guilds is self evident. Whether it the necessity for coordination of running high level raids, providing gear/crafting, or dozens of smaller reasons one must wonder what guilds in DDO accomplish. Don’t get me wrong I prefer to run with my guildies but unlike many games it just not a requirement. Guild housing/Guild Bank/Guild Auctions/Guild Email/Guild Voice Chat/Guild Web-Sites and Forums all would be nice additions to the game making Guilds more important with making Guilds a requirement.

Favor Rewards
MadFloyd has already announced that in the near future how patron favor and rewards are offered will addressed. It is a small gripe for players but the current system seems outdated and lacking balance in the rewards or even rewards. However there is far from consensus on the part players who respond on how best to address this. To me this seems like a great opportunity for Turbine to get player feedback and prepare players well in advance about the change.

Crafting
Crafting is such an integral segment of many games, its complete lack of crafting, beyond Green Steel and alchemical and the pseudo crafting that is dragontouched armor is bordering on inexcusable as DDO approaches four years old. What is the plan for integrating crafting into DDO, when are we going to see it. Kate in several interviews and postings indicated it was SOON™ but that is now YEARS AGO™.

Jeff: The entire economy in several games (cough LotRO) is balanced by the use of crafting, the ability to collect, prepare, trade and sell resources, ingredients, and items helps keep the players bank accounts in order. The fact that once equipped items become bound to character doesn’t hurt either.
With what little crafting we have, Green Steel, the fact we don’t have deconstruction is nauseating, it is something the player base has been asking virtually day one after the release of the Shroud. The problem is the imbalance in the number of Large Devil Scales and Large Sulfurous Stones in comparison to the other ingredients used in crafting tier three. Now when new gear or other items are introduced that and it prompts players to replace green steel crafted items with virtually the same effect on other gear requires a huge Grinding mentality. At this point I have over 100 Arrowheads, Chains and pretty close to that amount of Shrapnel and I would be lucky to have 7 Stones or Scales in my inventory. Considering I have at least two opps, and four items that are useless because of new gear, let me at least try and get some value out of those items (besides selling to a vendor).
Can we PLEASE (thats a huge beg by the way) have a trader allowing us to trade three four or even five of one ingredient for another? That would help a lot too.

The Dragontouched armor is what I call Pseudo Crafting others simply call it the lottery system. I think the concept of the items is fine, however the method and requirements to get said items is an “EPIC” fail. I would highlight EPIC more if it were practical.

Jeff: I think it is time to revisit that system, no one minds to greatly grinding for Shroud ingredients, I would suggest that a similar system be implemented for dragontouched. Where Dragon scales are combined with collected Ores (adamantine, mithral, silver, and gold) to create the armor at a forge in the Reaver’s refuge, or collected fibers (silk, or Cotton or...) to create the robes or outfits, or some combination of both ores and fibers to make breastplates/leather armor. Small ingredients drop in the three adventure zones and both small and medium ingrediants drop in the quests. Turn the eerie forest and Stealer of Souls into a Raid and have it drop large ingrediants. Walla (with a lot of work) you have another zone players will be happy to grind (as long as we get deconstruction and an ingredient trader).

Speaking of Dragons
Can we get please get a Green Dragons (I wouldn’t mind the lesser Chromatic Dragons of Brown, Orange, Purple and Yellow) and some dragons of other varieties (Ferrous, Metallic, or Gem) for a change.

You have introduced two new black dragons, can they drop scales as well in “Mired in Kobolds”?
I have been informed that Mama does indeed drop a Scale, it must be some really high number since after a good bakers-dozen worth of runs I have yet to see anyone pull one.

That was changed why?
Over the past four years as players we have seen dozens of changes to the meta-game without getting full explanations as to why the developers believe these changes are in the best interests of the game. To players we in general understand for balance, playability, and overall fun factor for players; however when Turbine has just announced changes without an explanation the only thing we as players see is three months worth of play time wasted because that character we just spent time running 40 runs of “the Shroud” to get the final parts of their crafted are now obsolete characters.

"You'll shoot your eye out"
I wish I could say I am amazed at how poorly ranged combat works in DDO right now. Having been here in closed beta at least I have an understanding as why it is so nerfed. For those of you who don’t think it is nerfed and is comparable in DPS to melee your ranged weapon does less damage with all it modifiers (approximately 45) than a Raged Barbarians plus to damage. Now there is nothing wrong with Ranged doing less damage, IF it can be useful in other means. Destruction is useful, but what is beyond those few simple debuffs. You cannot Sunder, Sap, Trip, Hamstring, fatigue, bleed, or many many other options. Please add other options to ranged builds, you need to look no further than LotRO for examples of interesting attack functions that strength the Ranged Build without overpowering them. Penetrating Shot, Rain of Arrows, Pinning Shots, merciful shots, quick shot, and several others all increase the versatility of ranged builds without decreasing the need for other build types.

To Shrine or not to Shrine...
Currently in the game we have an issue of either too many shrines available or nowhere near enough. I think the shroud is an example of nice balance, not only of the correct amount of shrines but ability to recover SP (primarily) if things don’t go as well as planned at the high levels. I look at so many other quests and say this needs another shrine or this needs four fewer shrines or…
To address many of the Shrine issues I would like to suggest using “temporary” or timed shrines, especially on entrance into quests accessed via an adventure area. Having a shrine pop up for two or three minutes right inside the door would elevate so many problems; however I would add it with the caveat that once buffing starts the shrine goes away, that includes places like VOD.
In addition to the shrine it would be nice if a character had the ability to camp (create a shrine sort of) which allowed the ability to eat food or drink to recover HP and SP similar to in taverns. I would add this if you think reducing the number of shrines is okay in many quests. But that is just me and is not a completely thought out concept yet.

Why do we all look alike?
You can tell who the high end characters are by simply walking around Stormreach, Dragontouched Armor or Icy Raiments indicate players willing to do a lot of grinding. In a Shroud run the other day 11 of the 12 characters were wearing Icy Raiment’s. You have talked about the DDO store providing the three C, Content, Convenience and Costuming can we get the Costuming Part, pretty please. There is no reason that it shouldn’t be available soon. I will gladly spend points to get different outfits.

[GoldyGopher]

I would like to return to the discussion on balance, because it is such a long and complex issue, so much so it will take up the most space in this topic. Not that I am already long winded and long in the tooth.

Balance is an issue that everyone I talk to DDO mentions in one shape or form. Balance isn't about every character build doing everything the same, or every quest being worth the same amount of xp, or every piece of loot being worth the same amount. It's about characters builds that bring soemthing to the table when you play them, knowing regardless of which adventure I run I should get an approperate amount of XP for the Time and Risk I put into it. Just as importantly it's about knowing that when I open a chest the loot I pull should be approperate level and value for the quest.

How Experience is currently awarded
If you look at the current list of quests you will discover two things, first we have an decent number of quests and second that most people only run the same small subset of quests. The problem is that small subset of quests provides substantially more value to the characters than the rest of the quests, be it XP or loot. For the sake of this portion of the discussion we are going to avoid talking about favor because we have been told by MadFloyd favor is being reevaluated in the not so distant future.

Arguably the way XP awarded in quests is completely off, it does not recognize the level of difficulty, the time investment, the risk to the characters and finally the other rewards. The current mechanism for awarding XP favors the quick easy quests and doing the minimum of optional tasks. There are a number of reasons this is true, but mostly it has to do with time in the quests. In most quests doing the minimum requirement will net you about 65% to 75% of the possible XP while spending less than 50% time required to complete all the optional quests. Hence you can run a quest twice doing the minimum earning 20 to 30% more XP than completing many quests once with all the optionals.

In looking at three quests in the same level band, “Cannith Crystal”, “Redemption”, and “Information is Key” you can easily see the inequity in the rewards to the players.

Cannith Crystal – a sub ten minute quest (very short), with the potential for 1 chest and base XP of 220.
Redemption – a 15 to twenty minute quest (short), with one chest guaranteed on completion and the potential for a second chest with a base XP of 540.
Information is Key – A sub ten minute quest (short), with one chest with a base XP of 980.

Considering available bonuses Cannith Crystal can get slightly more 300 XP, Redemption slightly more than 800, and Information is Key more than 1500. Which quest is going to be run, which quest is going to run more often is probably the better question?
If you compare “Information is Key” with “Butcher’s Path” both offer similar amount of XP, but Butcher’s Path takes 30 minutes to run, has at least 10 times as many mobs, more spells cast (curse, lightning bolt) against the party, which one are you going to run?
If we move up Taming the Flames/Stormcleave Outpost/Thrall of the Necromancer again we see one quests whose XP is substantially higher than the other two quests with a lot less risk.
We can continue this all the way to level 20. The problem is Turbine needs to sit down and rationalize the XP per quest with the concept that more risk and time in the quest should result in more XP.

The other issue is that shorter quests (quests that take less than 15 minutes) usually take longer to fill than complete the quest, especially if you are looking for that one skill/class to simplify the quest, dare I say rogue or healer? This begs the question should short and very short duration quests be quests in the traditional sense as we talk about DDO or should they be something else?

A lot of what I am talking about is low and mid level quests that many/most are currently running solo, the concept that has been brought up is combining a number of these quests into something more akin to Adventure Area and making the quests objectives rather than full quests. The idea is presented of reworking the water works and the four quests that make up the Water Work Cycle plus invaders into a single adventure area. Now rather than having Guard Jung grant you “Kobold’s New Ringleader” he gives you a bounty objective to find his missing badge, and if you return with the badge he gives you the next bounty to go find the kobold’s new ringleader, both of which are now in the oversized adventure area of the waterworks rather than a separate quest. Quests given by Guard Tember, Durk, and Mistress Ahura, are all examples of quests that could be turned into objectives in a much larger and more interesting Adventure Area.
Looking at just the Harbor you could also combine Baudry, Fitzpat, and maybe create a couple of new ones for a Warehouse District Adventure Area.
The same concept continues through the Marketplace, and into the Houses.
Just because we have a large number of quests does not necessarily imply we have enough. One of the problems with the number of quests that we have is we end up repeating the same quests over and over and over, not always the same quests for XP, but because we want Normal/Hard/Elite completions if we have ten characters we see the same quests 30 plus times making the quests extremely boring and repetitive. I find this especially true at the lower levels.

It would be nice to get one (or more) additional starting zone (quests level 1-3) and I think I know where it would be a good location, connected to Zawabi’s Refuge or a reworked Smugglers Rest.

How loot is awarded
Without Crafting the Loot Lottery is full of losers, minimum level 5 gear in an Epic Quest Chest, does that seem correct to you? Here again is another topic Turbine should build a large dialog with it player base and address the issues. It isn't about pulling ML 13 RR +10 Armor bracers in every chest, it’s about making sure there is some balance between quest you are in and the loot you are pulling. You will find no agreement amongst players right now on how to fix the issue but it is pretty close to unanimous the current system just isn’t working.


EDIT: As been mentioned further down in this thread the usefulness of Raid Loot.

Level of Difficulty as the characters move into higher level dungeons.
Many veteran players noted DDO has an easy mode and a difficult (Epic) mode but lacks the transition between the levels of difficulty between the levels.
The AC of mobs that characters fight is a good example of how the progression fails to work currently within DDO.
At level 1, you basic melee types will be +1 for Class and +3 (or greater) for str/dex modifier, assuming that Turbine would like players to have approximately a 75% chance to successful hit a mob the mob’s AC should be 10 (Average d20 die roll of 11 plus 4 modifier). The reality is in game that the ACs in the Level 1 dungeons are between 8 and 10, resulting in 85% chance to hit a mob with typical Melee build.
In Level 8 quests assuming that Turbine still would like to have it typical Melee Builds a 75% chance to hit the mob’s AC should be around 23 to 25 (+8 for Class, +5/+6 str/dex modifier, +4/+5 Weapon Modifier +d20) in game the AC on mobs is 19 to 21. This low AC results in most melee builds hitting on 95% of all attack swings.
No one is suggesting that you should make it more difficult for beginning characters/players however by the time you reach level 20 the AC of the mob are pointless, generally the highest AC on the mobs run 39/41, a full melee is going to be in that +36 range (self buffed) and in the low 40 with “raid” buffs resulting in 95% of all attacks hitting the targets.
This deflated AC results in some high level mobs magnifies the amount of HPs on a number of high level mobs, in my opinion more HP than appropriate, Orthons come to mind, not to mention Raid Bosses. Increasing mobs AC and decreasing their HP seems to be a very suitable change.
For many of the people that I corresponded with increasing the AC of mobs as the Challenge Rating Increases was something we agreed upon. At level 20 a full melee using a maximum to hit with +45 should result in ACs in the 56 range, a little higher than what we see on epic. We understand that it greatly effects non-melee builds which melee but it is supposed to at least in my opinion , a loss of 5 on the to-hit should be felt and should drop the number of hits by 25%.
One of the side effects that bringing the AC in line to level, at least in my calculations, is that it also brings the damage done by many classes back into a semblance of balance. Additional it puts more emphasis on Aggro/Crowd control, tactics, sunder, destruction, and so on and so forth, all of which should improve game play.
Another side effect would be the specialization and diversification of character builds. Currently One Build to rule them all is in play, well not one build but probably a dozen or so builds or slight variations on those builds are extremely common. Builds that can “tank” and be “main damage dealer” and … by raising the AC players will need to chose a single path.

I will openly admit this change is going to affect a large number of bad builds. Bad may not be the most appropriate word, builds that are taking advantage of the low AC of mobs at the high end to extent that it would hurt them immensely to see AC increased because they wouldn’t hit anything short of rolling a 20. I counter that Turbine has created a self-fulfilling prophecy; people build to the minimum not maximum, if you raise the AC than people will rebuild their characters to meet the new requirements.

Another problem point that many respondents had was the lack of balance between the class and the role that they fill in a party.
The first question is what does Turbine believe the roll of each class in a Party is? Followed quickly by how does that class compare to other classes assuming they are taking a similiar roll? What does a primary DPS character, a tank, crowd control, and other archetypes provide in the party?

Primarily a DPS Character
Does the DPS output of a Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin or Ranger equal one another if they are in the primary damage dealer roll. It is an unfortunate situation where due to the large amounts of inaccurate information on the forums many players feel so; the reality is these classes are far from equal. Not being equal is okay, if the classes have something to balance out the difference in damage amounts.

The proto typical Barbarian will do insane amounts of damage, however due to the lack of AC and Rage should takes lots more damage. The fighter has the ability to specialize in dozens of forms of combat, the monk is all mythical and stuff, the Paladin is the focal point of their deities muscle on Eberron, the Ranger is self-sufficient character who has learned to survive in the wilderness.
The reality is a lot different; here again there is not one cause or one fix rather the summation of a number of problems effect the game as a whole.

One of the key fixes is introduction of more mob-types at the high level. Currently we have a preponderance of Outsiders, with a few other types thrown in; more than once the game is been referred to as “Dungeons and Evil Outsiders”. As the Paladin, Knight of the Chalice and Weapons of Good Capstone are geared toward that mob-type their DPS is misleading with an additional 7d6 (which equates to like 60 points in DPS on a TWF).

Increasing the AC of Mobs does little to hurt a raged barbarian, most barbarians will see only a slight decrease in their DPS output (less than 10%) in the 50 to 55 AC range depending on the build.
The fighter needs to see more additional bonuses or benefit when using a specialized weapon, a kensei III with fighter alacrity should be similar in DPS output to a Barbarian; however right now they are 10 to 12% less. Turbine could address this by adding an additional +1 to threat range or critical damage modifier or a dozen of minor ways we haven’t even thought of.

Than we have our problem class, the Monk. I have to be honest here more than one person has suggested taking Monk from the game wouldn’t be a bad thing; but since that is probably outside of the question let us look at how to improve the monk. One of the first issues for Monks is there need to get so much more gear to almost an acceptable level it limits them in options. To me that may not be a bad thing, since it is after all pay to play class requireing players invest time isn't all that bad.
To improve their DPS output consider adding a Enhancement Line:
- 4 Points – Increase the Threat Range of all Monk Weapons by 1.
- 6 Points – Increase the critical multiplier by 1 of all Monk Weapons.
Making these level 6 and 12 respectfully dictates that these changes benefit more "pure" monk builds rather than the splash class many people use. By ncreasing the Threat Range and Multiplier both by one, acccording to basic dps calculations you should see an increase of about 34%. Using DDO Weapons Compare this puts the Monk at least in the same ballpark as other pure melees.

The Ranger is, I think anyways, our most nerfed class. The current consensus is that their DPS output is not quite where it should be; however even a small change could cause their DPS output to reach well beyond what should be considered acceptable. So considering their other benefits slightly below DPS levels is okay with us. Also suggested was giving Rangers a base +1 to either (not both) attack or damage.

Tanks
The first problem is that many of the Tankable Mobs lack sufficient AI/Aggro that nothing a Tank will do will hold Aggro. Whether they are End Bosses in Raids or Red Named Lieutenants or just mobs within the game in general they just do not focus on any one character regardless. If Turbine corrects this issue you should see more Tanks get used.

The Second problem is the inability of Tanks to Hold Agro, especially Sword and Board Tanks. There are many reasons for this but two primary causes.

If we look at the Intimidate Skill in game, it is more like the Taunt Skill from pen and paper Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Calling someone bad names hurting their feelings, make a roll, pass the roll they attack you, fail they are all over the party.
I would suggest changing how the intimidate Skill Works, make it a self buff that stacks with both Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys as well as a other hate modifiers. Make the buff increase your hate multiplier by 4% per level. (Thus a intimidate score of 1 has an additional 4% modifier, a score of twenty-five has an additional 100% modifier (double), and fifty = 200%) in addition while in that stance make it so the actual DPS is reduced by 25%. So if your character has a 25 Intim Score with that buff if the character does 100 points of damage, the mob thinks it takes 200 points of damage but in reality only takes 75.

The second cause is the really really low output of DPS in sword and board characters. Whether you are Fighter or Paladin your DPS is going to be 1/3 of Damage Dealer, in simpler terms currently your DPS is just below the level that is needed hold Agro, in both cases rather than add Damage to their DPS you need to make sure their hate multiplier goes up.
I would suggest a Enhancement line with a cost of 1-2-3 (6 points total) that increases the hate modifier (and stacks with everything) by 25, 50, and 100 percent make available to both SD and DoS by requiring either SD/DoS 1 for the first level, SD/DoS 2 for the second level, and SD/DoS 3 for the third level.

The Second type of a Tank is a splash Tank (usually with two or more levels of Monk) and with these type of Tanks I am not sure you do anything for them since they obviously took the other splash levels for other benefits.


What do Tank builds provide in Epic quests. Currently a AC of low to mid 80s is easily attainable for a Tank, however when you are still hit 90% of the time or more what is the point?

Crowd Control
Crowd Control is another area that currently is suffering in game, the problem begins because in genral the mobs are so easy to kill Crowd Control isn’t required through much of DDO. Many of the respondents have played other games where Crowd (Aggro) control is so important that is hard to imagine it being more unnecessary in DDO. I go back to mob AC, with it being as low as it is there is no need to concentrate on one Mob before taking down additional mobs, we don’t need to destruct/sunder/trip/tank or any of the dozens of other tactics. If mob AC goes up than concentrating on one mob becomes more important thus it becomes more important to have good and usable Crowd Control.

To improve crowd control we need to start by removing all blanket immunities from Mobs. We also need to make higher level mobs more difficult to hit with lower level spells, consider adding a modifier where a spell level / target level creates a negative modifier to your roll (hence a level 1 spell in a level 20 dungeon is -19 where a level 8 is -11) or something like that. Or make it easier for mobs to shake off lower level spells (level 1 spell has a 10 second timer for a save while a level 9 spell has 90 seconds (my personal preference).

None of these fixes are supposed to be easy fixes for players, rather it is about putting more focus and emphasis on a role in a party requiring players to sacrifice something else in their characters build. I don’t think that is a bad thing.

More Official Discussions
I think I have been verbose enough and I hope it gives pause to you at Turbine to really start a series of “official” discussions on improving the game for those of us who are beyond the new player stage. None of my thoughts are 100% completed concepts and many would need to be fleshed out. DDO is a great game, I enjoy playing it, I enjoy the people I play with, but I am left wonder what it takes to make the game better and whether you are listening Turbine.

Now that you have seen my thoughts I want to know yours so to that extent let me ask you directly:

What is Turbine doing to reduce lag experienced by the player base?
What is Turbine doing to complete the numerous announced initiatives over the past five years?
What is Turbine doing to bring more balance the game?

Thorsaxe of Khyber.



About the Author - As a veteran player with over 20 years history playing online games going back to MUDs of the late 1980’s my experience in with game play spans Command Line Interface to Three-Dimensional Game with multi-faceted graphical User Interface. As the Senior Technologist for one of the Top Research Libraries in the North America I have extensive experience in Data Storage, Multi-tier Archival planning, Data Mining, Data Archival, User Interface, Network Connectivity, Server Administration, Recovery, Business Continuation and dealing with a myriad of protocols and requirements supporting both De facto and De Jure standards.

About the Respondents - The majority of the views in this document are that of the author I asked many number of “veteran” players for their opinions. Had more to do what I should be focusing on rather than changing my views. So the additional views in this document are both exclusive and voluntary as the author selected the players to be polled manually and they had the choice on whether or not to respond. The sixty (plus) respondents are primarily from Khyber [the author’s home server], Argonessen, Cannith and Orien; most have played DDO in excess of three years with seven to ten years worth of experience playing MMORPGs in general.

I will be coming back to revist and edit for readibilty reasons after this is posted.

[totmacher]

tl;dr - but going to! getting through it... :)

[Heffty_Smurf]

are u serious? lol you may have had 3 full pages of absolutely great opinions and ideas but you lost me after i saw the size of the first one. I have a lot of opinions myself but that was a book. btw i stopped reading 2 paragraphs into your thread sorry but i couldnt take it and i doubt that Fernando will read it.

[DANTEIL]

tl;dr, but I'm assuming it's the lyrics to an ABBA song.

[totmacher]

I understand and agree with many of your concerns but this is literally a large gripe list and I don't see them responding to it, if that's what you wanted. Everyone has their view of what DDO should be but that's not really useful to the devs, except maybe as ideas to create stuff out of. MMOs are not really a business where you get an individual say in the product and even when you do, it's through the structured format they've been posting

[GoldyGopher]

are u serious? lol you may have had 3 full pages of absolutely great opinions and ideas but you lost me after i saw the size of the first one. I have a lot of opinions myself but that was a book. btw i stopped reading 2 paragraphs into your thread sorry but i couldnt take it and i doubt that Fernando will read it.

If Fernando doesn't he doesn't, no biggy. I voiced my opinion, attempted to frame it in readible manner and now move on.

[Gol]

Wall of Text blinds you!
Wall of Text hits you for 999 points of bludgeoning damage!
You were killed by Wall of Text!

[Borror0]

The layout in the third post is horrible. You should tweak it so it's much more readable.

Great posts, though.

[Magusrex777]

OP,

I think you put too much time into that to post it without more editing. That was a difficult read. I wish at the end of each topic you addressed, you had a clear conclusion with solutions you feel appropriate. I feel you are intelligent and have a good take. I think you could be more clear in most of this post. It feels rushed to press. I hope you spend some time re-reading this and say some thing differently. When talking about melee class balance I would have liked more detail about the dps differences. Fix the spacing, add some bolded or larger text, have clearer breaks between topics.

[Thrudh]

Over the past four years Turbine has announced or promised a great number of additions to the game, including new classes and races, spells, and enhancements to name a few. Many of these new additions have been started but the problem is we have yet to see the end product for most of these; Prestige Enhancements (Including Racial Prestige Enhancements), additional races (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Gnome, Monster Classes), completion of story lines (Kobolds, Shavarath), and the completion of in game functionality (Auction House, Mail Systems). It is depressing as players to get excited about these when they were announced then months or even years later we haven’t seen the item we have been so excited about.

Good post, especially the above snippet...

I'd really like to see the PrEs get finished for all classes... IMO, this should be a top priority for SOMEONE (if not 2 or 3 someones)...

[Archetype]

wall Of Text Blinds You!
Wall Of Text Hits You For 999 Points Of Bludgeoning Damage!
You Were Killed By Wall Of Text!

+1

[dv8maker123]

Regardless of the volume it was a good post with valid points. I really do think Turbine will ignore it, and even if they respond it will be with the same "SOON" mentality we have faced for ages. This is a nice concise list of issues we have been requesting feedback on for a long time, and frankly we haven't gotten squat thus far.

I think the big reality we vets need to face is that the game is heading in a very different direction now that it is the :EU, and the focus will be on more accessibility and micro transactions than supporting the expectations of long term paying subscribers. Turbine is going to design the game based on what provides them more revenue, and based on the influx of players and the comments we have seen I have to assume that F2P micro transactions are generating more income than subscriptions right now (just an assumption of course). If turning the game into an easy WoW clone would generate 10 times more revenue than designing it closer to its original roots I can assure you that Turbine would do the former.

Cynical, yes, but that's where my expectations are at with the way the development is going, and from the lack of results on our long term requests. Fortunately I still enjoy the game and keep paying my subscription, however, that sentiment will not last forever. The lack of progress (from a vet's perspective) or the degradation of game play to appease the F2P audience will certainly influence my desire to continue, though I honestly can't say where that breaking point lies time wise. At the end of the day, even if a number of vets leave it would seem that the F2P constituents are enough to support what Turbine was trying to achieve, and as such I am not holding my breath in expectation of our desires as vets being met any time soon.

[Heffty_Smurf]

If Fernando doesn't he doesn't, no biggy. I voiced my opinion, attempted to frame it in readible manner and now move on.

oh youre moving on now? good for you.

[GoldyGopher]

Okay, Back from Lunch and now that I have screamed bloody murder and something about "Do what I want you to do not what I told you to do!"

I'll go back and fix the formatting in part III, somehow I managed to get an unformatted version posted when I updated the posting before running off to lunch.

My apologizes for messing that part up so badly.

For those interested I struggled with formatting this response, initially I was going to create a PDF with all kinds of nice pictures and stuff, but when I was on page 22 and not done, decided that was to long.
Thought about a doing a list connecting to a series of posts but that got to convoluted and unmanageable..
So I settled on three posts, and Introduction, details of the minor concerns and than serious look at game balance.

Which I mucked up with a bad cut and paste.

<shrug>

[RobbinB]

Amazing post. You really hit the nail on the head and put into words so many of the thoughts I've had about DDO.

Two things I would add:

You talked extensively about balance but not extensively about loot balance. In particular, so many of the named items are either completely useless or too good. Epic content allows the possibility to "correct" some of the poor decisions made previously, but compare the (mostly) terrible epic upgrades in the desert with the much more reasonable upgrades in the epic von series and it makes me think Turbine has a manic depressive or a wagon-jumping alcoholic leading their "balance" team.

Inventory.
This is a huge annoyance. There has been no additional space made availabe via items, favor, or just granted in the several years I've been playing. All the bags are doing is compensating for the never-ending slew of new ingredients and collectibles constantly being added to the game. And the bags themselves take up an inventory spot. We are hugely overdue for at least the potential to add one more "collapsable hole" inventory spot, if not an entire revamp of the way loot is organized in the inventory.

But great post. Keep up the good work.

[Inkblack]

I went fishing for input to help Goldy out, here's what I gathered from another forum. I didn't get time to get it to Goldy to include all of it, so...

---------------------

Quest Reward Imbalance - Some quests give more rewards for similar risk, meaning that many quests simply do not get run except for favor. People complain about lack of content, yet perhaps it could be explained as lack of valid content? This is an issue that has not been addressed since release.
Examples:
Cannith Crystal - level 1-2 party - 10 minutes - 220 base experience
Redemption - level 1-2 party - 20 minutes (includes travel) - 540 base experience
Information is Key - level 1-2 party - 10 minutes - 980 base experience
--------------------
Taming the Flames - level 6-7 party - 30 minutes - 1,660 base experience
Stormcleave Outpost - level 6-7 party - 45 minutes - 3,636 base experience
Thrall of the Necromancer - level 5-7 party - 30 minutes - 4,622 base experience

Lag - Information exchange between the client and server makes some quests nigh unplayable. If playtesting was done over an internet connection or at home, this would be recognized as a problem. DPS lag is especially prevalent in raid instances.
Examples:
- The Shroud part 4 - Lag gets bad enough that the blades cease to move on screen
- The Shroud part 5 - Healing lag is prevalent, sometimes up to 5-6 seconds after cast
- Tower of Despair, Nytherios - Shadowfiends movement cannot be seen, group status bars lag significantly, display can lag actual game by up to 15 seconds
- Tower of Despair, Horoth - Group status bar lag and healing lag.
- Dungeon Alert may reduce server lag, but it's affect on the player's lag has been inconsequential. When the executive producer says it's our computers, it tells me he's never even stepped in any of the above raids at home.

Ranged / Melee Imbalance - Ranged combat is inferior to melee combat. The most carefully crafted ranged character is roughly equivalent in ability to a substandard melee character. An optimized melee character is roughly 2-3 times as effective as a ranged character.
Examples:
Observe any high level party. Count the number of ranged characters. Observe the ranged characters contribution.

Completion of Announced Initiatives - Many initiatives have been announced, but have not been completed. No status is given, or perceived timeline.
Examples:
- *** Searchable Auction House ***
- Guild Housing
- Half-Orcs (originally was going to be introduced with monks, even tested at the same time)
- Druids

Communication to Players - Communication to players about long range development activities has ceased. All communication is about either upcoming patches or through release notes.
Examples:
- Weekly Development Activities - Stopped being shared in June 2008
- State of the Game Address - Last shared 2007 (???)
- (Borror0) It's become a rarity for a developer to defend his or her design, or explain what the goal was.

Bugs that are Continually Repeated - Some bugs are fixed in one modification, then repeatedly crop up in other areas. It is almost as if the testing standards are not updated to look for known bugs.
Examples:
- (Woody) Mod 6: Recalling from Shroud dumps you into Korthos Island. Update 3 patch 1: Recalling from Vault of Night dumps you into Korthos Island.
- (Borror0) Raid timer bugs. How many modules/update had no exploits to skip the timer? Vault of Night Epic, Abbot's Ascension, ...

Game Changes that Don't Make Sense if you Play the Game - Changes that are based on player feedback, but the execution makes it seem as if they didn't research the true problem. Indicates either a lack of understanding of actual game play or a development concern preventing introduction in a more player friendly manner. Without communication, it is unfortunately easy to assume a lack of understanding of actual game play.
Examples:
- (Borror0) Mod 8: Complaints new mods were to raid focused, so instead we got a 6-man raid.
- (Borror0) BAB Change: Great idea, but how could they not realize it would be so slow?
- (Borror0) Air Elementals: Knockdown vs Punching Bag
- (Borror0) Named Items: Some are completely underpowered, some are completely overpowered.
- (Borror0) Pre-Built Character Paths

[Kruler]

Good post Goldy

[GoldyGopher]

Amazing post. You really hit the nail on the head and put into words so many of the thoughts I've had about DDO.

Two things I would add:

You talked extensively about balance but not extensively about loot balance. In particular, so many of the named items are either completely useless or too good. Epic content allows the possibility to "correct" some of the poor decisions made previously, but compare the (mostly) terrible epic upgrades in the desert with the much more reasonable upgrades in the epic von series and it makes me think Turbine has a manic depressive or a wagon-jumping alcoholic leading their "balance" team.

Inventory.
This is a huge annoyance. There has been no additional space made availabe via items, favor, or just granted in the several years I've been playing. All the bags are doing is compensating for the never-ending slew of new ingredients and collectibles constantly being added to the game. And the bags themselves take up an inventory spot. We are hugely overdue for at least the potential to add one more "collapsable hole" inventory spot, if not an entire revamp of the way loot is organized in the inventory.

But great post. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the words. As I reread and attempt to better format the letter for the Forums I don't think a few things came out the way I wanted.

I totally understand had F2P not worked out we would be looking at the "turning out the lights" a lot sooner than later but that isn't clear. Green Steel crafting has a lot going for it, except.. Page three is in shambles, thanks in most part to some fat finger mistakes on my part and needs lots of attention.

As for the list of issues, well I had seventy or so identified issues on my initial list, I focused on the ones that were the highest on other players lists. In all honesty I was surprised by the things that weren't high on everyone’s lists as much ink as they get on the forums, maybe that's why.

[Woody00]

...

It is Unfortunate that the dominant feeling amongst the veteran players in DDO is that the Development Team is not playing DDO at the same level of competence as they are and I personally think it shows. I dislike comparing DDO to other games it impossible not to mention at least a few others, probably for reasons many are not expecting. Rob Pardo, the former Lead Designer for the “World of Warcraft” series, and currently Executive Vice President of Game Development at Blizzard was/is an extremely active WoW player, his gameplay in WoW, as well as those of other senior personnel at Blizzard, allowed for a much better insight into the player-base desires and demands. Regardless of your feeling towards WoW it is obvious that the development team at Blizzard has/had a better connection to the players and was nimble enough to address the player-bases most pressing concerns in WoW. Rob Pardo cites this connection in many interviews as one of the reasons WoW is so successful and other games less successful, I am reminded of the problems in Everquest circa 2004 and feel that a similar organized protest may come to DDO.

....



This part right here is worth the +1.

[Magusrex777]

The first thing I wasn’t to make crystal clear. I LOVE DDO. I think the game is outstanding, my time spent is game is mostly free of aggravation and filled with fun. I agree with a number of your points and take your word on others.

1. Quests The first time around I do a quest it matters nothing to me about XP or loot rewards. I go, I explore, I enjoy. I would do it for nothing really. Now that I have a second toon I am exclusively playing quests that offer good XP/Loot for time spent vs difficulty. So is everyone else, so that is where all LFMs are going. I run all the other quests way over level solo for favor. I run the good XP/loot ones over and over until the rewards are no longer worth it, some of those I still run for the loot. Seems like a waste of good content. If you just play them yourself and see what we see, then make some teaks to Loot & XP rewards you will increase the repeatable, playable content by 70% IMO.

2. Searchable AH Please allow us to input a text that searches items of the type and level we are looking for. Standing at the AH for longer than I desire is pretty much my only real aggravation in game. This should be a high priority.

3. Balance I agree classes are not balanced but PnP D&D was never close to balanced IMO. I think they would have to change so much it would feel like the Sony Star Wars thing. I think 4th edition would probably play better as a MMO but people here hate that thought so I dunno what you can do here that wouldn’t have people screaming bloody murder.

4. Guild/Player Housing I could not agree with you more on this. Everything about it would help the game. People would pay for it in the store and in game and it would keep people playing longer. I think this would be HUGE

[Al_Capwned]

Good post thugglet.

As a new(lvl 9) player I like your idea's for more awe inspiring moments. For me I loved seeing the flying dragon / dragon in the misery peak quest. Cool. Def need more Whoa! moments!

Any new freaky monster that pops up(not often) is cool because I don't know what to expect. I think more of this would really get new players juices flowing. More variety of texture / level design early. More 3d levels(like the pit)

Anyone else hate collectables as much as me? I think it's ******** that I pick this stuff up, fill up my inv, run around a bunch of different instances to turn them into collectors. It's like a 15-20 minute adventure each time. This game needs way less collectables, or atleast a centralized turn in where I don't have to say HERE YOU GO! 50000 times.

Anyway I wont get into class balance stuff since I don't know *** i'm talking about! =P

[Invalid_50]

Great post Goldy, unfortunately...

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1238/pezdispensermodii.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/pezdispensermodii.jpg/)

[Woody00]

Good post thugglet.

As a new(lvl 9) player I like your idea's for more awe inspiring moments. For me I loved seeing the flying dragon / dragon in the misery peak quest. Cool. Def need more Whoa! moments!

Any new freaky monster that pops up(not often) is cool because I don't know what to expect. I think more of this would really get new players juices flowing. More variety of texture / level design early. More 3d levels(like the pit)

Anyone else hate collectables as much as me? I think it's ******** that I pick this stuff up, fill up my inv, run around a bunch of different instances to turn them into collectors. It's like a 15-20 minute adventure each time. This game needs way less collectables, or atleast a centralized turn in where I don't have to say HERE YOU GO! 50000 times.

Anyway I wont get into class balance stuff since I don't know *** i'm talking about! =P

I was lucky enough to loot a large collectables bag early on one of my toons. All I do is make sure that I stick it in the shared bank before I log. This wont work with the ones you buy from house J or the ddo store though because I think they are bound.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

This part right here is worth the +1.

When ever I read stuff like this I am reminded of a old cartoon, which is always way to true:
http://onproductmanagement.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/treecomicbig.jpg

[Horrorscope]

Goldy you have a lot of good things there, I didn't make it all the way through though. To me that is more then this game will ever see. Lets hope their next effort marries LOTRO and DDO together, that would make many things on your list vanish.

[Natulyre]

I liked the colors in your post... I'll read the whole when i have time :>

[OpallNotten]

Great post Goldy, unfortunately...

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1238/pezdispensermodii.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/pezdispensermodii.jpg/)


LOL nice :)
+1 Rep

[Ninetoes]

Quality post, well written. I'm not entirely convinced anyone of note will read the whole thing, but even if they get a small portion of it down it could have an impact.

+1, and where in the hell did you find enough free time to put this down on paper (such as it is)?

[oberon131313]

When ever I read stuff like this I am reminded of a old cartoon, which is always way to true:
http://onproductmanagement.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/treecomicbig.jpg

awesome

[leviathan]

Somewhere in there you asked for the new dragons in Mired in Kobolds to drop scales...

They do, got one from one of the mama's chests the first time I ran it.

[suitepotato]

I scanned it easily without any problems. NOT tl;dr.

:cool:

[Shassa]

Turbine's response: "u mad?"

[One_Nasty]

Definitely Not a Veteran Player, yet would like to add to the list.


Do the Developers Play DDO?
It is unfortunate that the dominant feeling amongst the veteran players in DDO is that the Development Team is not playing DDO at the same level of competence as they are and I personally think it shows.

This honestly goes beyond the veteran players issues. The current prebuilt character paths are at best completely useless. I was lucky to realize early on that my chosen path wasn’t going to fly with how the game currently works and was able to start over. The number of “odd” ending numbers in character stats was pretty hideous.

I understand the goofyness of random loot, featherfilling boots of featherfall anyone, but who ever is designing the named loot either designed it a long time ago before numerous game changes or has never actually played DDO. I'll just say I hope the former is true.


Where can we find the official answers to our questions
The Compendium is the offical guide to DDO, however there are so many questions just not answered the can at high levels greatly effect character design and play.

What is a Few, some, a small bonus, is there a large bonus, how is that calculated? Please clean up these entries.


Is that a fact?
All I can add is a quote "I solo leveled my toon to level 5 so I know what I am talking about."



Moving from instance to instance
Coming from an open landscape game I was appalled at the number of small instances you run through, running from one quest to another quest, via two vendors, two taverns, and into the next quest was no less than 10 load screens. I can understand two, maybe four but ten is ten to many.


Crafting
In several games crafting is a great balancer for new and old players, a small group can be virtually self-sufficent and not suffer through a out of whack economy.


Why do we all look alike?
Yes that would be nice.

To those I would add:
The economy is way out of whack. It is so bad right now I have to believe that Plat Farmers are thriving.

Where is the randomness? It would be great to have a mine or sewer built or rather assembled when we enter the quest.

How about more racial/class abilities to choose from. Cleric Domains, Deities?

My final point, one I need to get on my fire resistant outfit on for, it is way too easy to level up. Made worse by all the +20% XP times. In our group of six players we have lost two players because two players fell behind on levels and weren’t able to catch up. I understand going from say 3 to 4, but three hours to go from 11 (almost 12) to 13 because we picked the right quests while our friend wasn’t there.

[gott_ist_tot]

First of all, amazing post. Seeing this one without an official response will be... sad.

Random thoughts:

If there are dozen builds to rule them all now, wouldn't an official DPS announcement
boil it down to one?

Yes I want balance and yes I want fair responses for the Turbine.
But as soon as everything is laid straight on the table, I will feel as if I lost
something. Can't quite put my finger on it... Analogy:

We're in the early D&D days where rules are 'a bit' unbalanced.
What we're aiming for is a set of balanced rules, which brings us to the 4th edition.
Bet which one I'd like to play.

How do you stay balanced, and so to say 'politically correct' as to ruleset, classes
and races while preserving the feel of magic? Being sure, but not able to 100% prove
how your build will do from 1-20? **** me if I know.

But I can see one danger here, when I'm 100% proven what character can do what
at which level, I'll probably stop playing. It'll be as interesting as dropping a cigarette pack
to see if it falls down. It'll be DDO changed to WoW.

Putting the first dragon in the pinnacle of boredom, aptly named "Misery's Peak" left me a bit
confused as to what should I expect. And I'm afraid when the bulldozer comes to even quests out,
all quests will become this - misery's peak.

Sorry if I got bit hollistic here, but that's how I feel about all this balancing the game.
I can't deny it shall be done, but am afraid it will rid me of the fun all the same.

[TheKaige]

Great post. My 2 cents though; almost all of the problems in this game with AC, both how low mobs AC are, and how useless player AC is on Epic, can be fixed by changing attack bonus to what is was in PnP; basically whereas a fighter attacks with a BaB of +20/+25/+30/+35, it should actually be +20/+15/+10/+5. This would make AC useful in avoiding the amount of damage you take, if not in avoiding damage altogether. Of course, you would have to provide incentive to stand still, mainly by making it so that standing relatively still actually makes you attack 4x faster than if you were running around.

[Grimgore]

Great post Gold, good read and all but I think it needs to be condensed. I proofread tech manuals as part of my job and I could not make it through the whole posting (all three parts) without having to get up, adjust my eyes to something else, and then come back to it. Aside from that, you are spot on with your points, your thoughts and the collection of quotes. Sadly I, like many others, doubt that anyone at Turbine let alone Fernando himself will respond to this thread. I hope I am wrong, because it explains so much as to the "state of the game" right now.

[Borror0]

[...] who ever is designing the named loot either designed it a long time ago before numerous game changes or has never actually played DDO. I'll just say I hope the former is true.
Depending on the item, it's one of the two (or both). Some items are just dated while others are recent but so far off that it makes you wonder if they play at all.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

When ever I read stuff like this I am reminded of a old cartoon, which is always way to true:
http://onproductmanagement.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/treecomicbig.jpg

OMG, How did you get the post implimentation review report from my last major IT project?

[Woody00]

OMG, How did you get the post implimentation review report from my last major IT project?

I though it was a flow chart for how prototyping worked at my old company.

[GoldyGopher]

I’d like to thank everyone for the positive feedback (over 300 to my rep on one post). It is appreciated.

I talked a lot about balance and I think from the questions I have received that my views is not entirely understood. Since Melee DPS is such a hot topic let me use that as an example.

If a fully equipped and raged barbarian with their racial weapon of choice has a DPS of 100 than it is good balance to see a Kensei Fighter with their racial weapon of choice to have a DPS of 100. If one is 98 and the other is 102, no one cares you are within that okay maybe one additional swing at the end of the fight. If the DPS of one of the two classes is 120 and the other is 80 than the DPS of the two characters is out of balance.

If you continue to look at DPS by comparing a Rogue and same Barbarian, if the rogue is flanking the target and has a DPS of 100 than it is good balance, again being too far in either direction (while flanking) is poor balance. However if the Rogue gets caught in front, their low AC and low HP should be very apparent.

Rangers and Paladins are special cases, in general their DPS should be below that of the Barbarian, unless of course they are fighting mobs types they specialize in fighting. So a DPS of 80 vs. most mobs and 120 vs. specialized mobs is good balance, so two is 90 and 110 or 70 and 130.

Now you have AC Tank and the same Barbarian, it is obviously poor balance to have both characters with the same DPS. It is apparent that the Tank has given up DPS to increase his AC, so if the DPS of the Tank is 50 and the Barbarian is 100 it is the start of good balance. Since the Tank can have modifiers to their Hate (Agro Characters generate when attacking mobs) if the Hate doubles the DPS for terms of determining which character the mobs will focus on, close but no cigar. Assuming 50 DPS the tank will need at least three times the amount of Hate generated as the barbarian to hold agro.

The issue, at least as I see it, is that so many things are slightly out of whack that the accuracy of the whole equations is completely out the window.

How do you bring DPS back into line, before we contract from a dozen or so high end Melee builds to a single build (I think all the Clerics and Favored Souls characters just shuttered at the thought of all those Barbarians running around on Epic).
To me the answer starts with a twofold suggestion; start and continue a long “official” discussion on DPS balance with the player base AND start playing the game at the end game with the same level of competence as the veteran players currently. That suggestion goes far beyond just DPS, there are so many topics that really need a long discussion with the player base and Turbine it is hard to know where to start.

In a few days or maybe a week or two Fernando has promised us a state of the game post, the response from that posting will be one of two views, Turbine just doesn’t get it, or Turbine gets it.

For those players who have been around a while, back in 2004 SOE came to the precipice of failure over their refusal to address the players concerns; the very real boycott of the Omen of War expansion generated a developer/player summit that “saved” the game. I have always wondered where EQ would be today had they addressed the players concerns prior to Woody Hearn taking charge and organizing the boycott.
Are we to the same point that the players and SOE were in 2004, does history repeat itself? I don’t think the issues TODAY are the same; however I think we are closer to where they were in 2003 and following the same blue print, if you know what I mean.

[Zoetic]

OP: Great post, though when you started to get into advice for fixes you started to lose me (though I did read the whole thing). I think it would have been better if you stuck with describing the problems so that Turbine can bring up their solutions in the "state of the game". It would be really appreciated if the "state of the game" from Fernando went into nearly the same level of detail, but as a player and forum reader for four years, I have no hope of that.

[Anarkius]

OP; great post and very concise as far as getting MANY points that have been raised in other threads re-established.

HOWEVER, I must say even though it is a good post, I started to lose interest about halfway through the 3rd part. More due to the length than the subject. And only 'skimmed' most of the replies to the post in general. While I feel that you have done an excellent job in voicing opinions shared by many players (vets and new players alike). I am concerned with the length. I appreciate your effort and the addition of color makes it a little easier on the eyes, you may wish to try and compress it slightly if you really want someone to read the WHOLE THING.

This is just my opinion though, and again I appreciate the effort that you and those that assisted you put forth to make such an educated representation of the DDO community. I hope that it is read, in it's entirety, and that we do get a response that is given as much effort as your post. :D

[Kielbasa]

Very interesting thread. I'd love to see you take on caster/support roles and balance between clerics, favored souls, wizards, sorcerers, and bards. Being a newer player with little to no experience with some of these classes it would be interesting to see a veteran player's take on where they are now and where they should be in the future.

[Dark_Helmet]

When ever I read stuff like this I am reminded of a old cartoon, which is always way to true:
http://onproductmanagement.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/treecomicbig.jpg

I have that on my wall and look at it during certain telecons. :D

[Dark_Helmet]

Nice opinion Goldy. I think you covered several types of players from old to new.

Here comes my turn for negative rep as this is what we are chatting about (with new players on my F2P account):

New players need instructions, not babying: I have run with a lot of newer players who don't know what to do (don't know how to use the Grouping tabs) or where to go (how to use the map effectively). It isn't that they need combat easier as much as they need to know how it works. Some more tutorials and guides in game would be nice.

3.5 Rules lawyer: D&D 3.5 has published rules that, while subject to interpretation, most players can look up with the DM giving a final judgement. When I ran modules, I included the rule changes up front so the players could clearly see the differences.
I understand that a DM can make a ruling however they feel, but why don't they publish the variants to the rules that they have made a ruling on? New players who are not familiar with 3.5 are having to go back and read the 3.5 SRDs and wonder what works correctly and what doesn't. It is very confusing to them.


Purists: What is up with these "ice" games? Is this D&D or are you trying to become another generic MMO? You lose the D&D purists and you won't capture the other MMO players since the engine for DDO is based on combat and instancing is for smaller groups. There are other free games that do that kind of thing better. Please concentrate on what makes DDO great: Team quests with instanced combat.

Frustration: How come when code gets published do bugs that previously got fixed - and weren't seen on Mournlands or Llama - come back? Your code development cycle needs some work.


Seriously, I like the DDO combat engine more than other games I have beta tested. The idea of making a separate instance for your team was ideal: I hate other MMOs that have you camp a spot to get a rare kill to advance a quest.

The problem with the emphasis on dungeon scaling and solo modes is that I see less teamwork and more of people just going it alone. You are losing one of your greatest selling points to the D&D crowd: emphasis on teamwork.

[Inkblack]

Have we been promised another state of the game address? If so, is there a link? I would hope some of these issues would be addressed in depth.

Ink

[Borror0]

Have we been promised another state of the game address? If so, is there a link? I would hope some of these issues would be addressed in depth.
Fernando promised us a state of the game address in a few week. Launch a search for all posts by Fernando and you'll find it quickly.

[GoldyGopher]

Have we been promised another state of the game address? If so, is there a link? I would hope some of these issues would be addressed in depth.

Ink

See my the first post in this topic for the link.

Thor

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

As for the list of issues, well I had seventy or so identified issues on my initial list, I focused on the ones that were the highest on other players lists. In all honesty I was surprised by the things that weren't high on everyone’s lists as much ink as they get on the forums, maybe that's why.

I'm kind of interested in seeing what's on this list. Would you post it?

[Draccus]

I scanned it and much of what I read I didn't like.

The good stuff was simply a re-hash of the same thing that's been posted on this board since I started playing. Do you really think Fernando read this, smacked himself in the forehead and said "A search feature for the AH! What a brilliant idea! Why didn't we think of that before???"

And "Lag! Hey, that's a great idea! Why don't we turn off the lag switch? Get the lag switch operator in here immediately. Tell him to turn it off and our players will love it!"

The stuff about greensteel deconstruction and trading ingredients is weak and unnecessary.

The rest...too long for nothing new.