Favored Souls: Why Your Cleric is Inferior

[Goldeneye]

The point of this post is to create a link which I can send to people when they are considering making a cleric.

Here is a list of why Favored Souls make better builds then clerics:



Enhancements:

Favored Soul Attack Boost: +5 Attack/20s
Favored Soul Damage Boost: +5 Damage/20s
Favored Soul Saves Boost: +5 Saves/20s
Charisma III and Wisdom II

Weapon Specialization:

Favored: Proficiency
Child: +1 to-hit
Beloved: +2 Damage
Specialization (AP) +2 Damage

Passive Traits:

Energy Resistance: +10 pts (stacks)
Jump as a Class Skill
+6 Reflex Save
10 Damage Reduction
Favored Soul Toughness IV: +40 HP


Capstone:

+2 CHA
Free Spells: such as:

Cure Light Wounds
Invisibility
Searing Light


Leap of Faith

That's right they get wings.

More Spell Points: TOTAL: +915

525 just for being a Favored Soul
200 For double Archmagi
150 from double Greensteel
40 more from Energy of the Scion





in COMPARISON:
Unique Cleric abilities:

Divine Vitality
Divine Might: +8 damage, requires 20 CHA
Inferior Capstone
Turn Undead
+1 Wisdom
Swapping Spells
Heavy Armor proficiency :P






There are two arguments that people always bring up to defend clerics.

Argument 1:
Favored Souls have 2 main stats (WIS, and CHA), while Clerics have 1.
Point 1:
Favored Souls have enough SP.... you don't really need to worry about CHA.
For every 2 points in CHA, favored souls get 29 sp at level 20.... so what if your CHA is low?

Point 2: Look at the unique qualities. Which ones require CHA?
Turn Undead, DV's, Divine Might, Capstone) use CHA.
Yes, that's right, 4 / 6 cleric abilities need CHA to reach full potential....

Argument 2:
Clerics can swap spells.
Point 1: While this is crucial to some people, it isn't a deal-breaker. Look at a clerics spell list.... and observe:

1.) How many spells are useless
2.) How many spells you can get away with scrolling
3.) How many of your lower heal spells... you NEVER use.



Anyway, I hope this post encourages you to make less clerics, and more favored souls.
In conclusion: don't listen to me, make whatever you want, and let me say "ha ha, told you so" when you're a level 20 cleric and realize that favored souls are better.

[Rusty_Can]

Divine Might: +8 STR, requires 20 CHA


Divine Might IV is +8 sacred bonus to damage, i.e., considering one-handed weapons, as if your STR was 16 points higher.

[Progen]

Yes, sadly Clerics are the free ones, and Favored Souls take much much more favor than a freebie can get :)

Aside from that, I thought that clerics were the only ones with heavy armor profeciency.

Also don't forget that Favored Souls get that jumping ability.


I guess we can only hope that when the Cleric Pre's come out they will help balance it out.

[Goldeneye]

Divine Might IV is +8 sacred bonus to damage, i.e., considering one-handed weapons, as if your STR was 16 points higher.

"Activate this ability to gain a +8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute. Consumes a use of your turn undead ability. Requires a 20 base Charisma."
My bad, good point. Though 20 base charisma is a pretty steep requirement for something that lasts 1 minute?


Yes, sadly Clerics are the free ones, and Favored Souls take much much more favor than a freebie can get :)
Aside from that, I thought that clerics were the only ones with heavy armor profeciency.
Also don't forget that Favored Souls get that jumping ability.
I guess we can only hope that when the Cleric Pre's come out they will help balance it out.
True, clerics are free, and you get what you pay for.
Heavy Armor: added that to my list... though not many clerics worry about AC.
Jumping ability: Yup Wings/leap of faith, and jump as a class skill.

Personally: I really hope the cleric PrE's rock!

[Progen]

And i guess you could add that only Cleric's get the effecient metamagic for empower healing and only favored souls get the effecient metamagic for regular empower (they probably still win out on this).

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Clerics get Heavy armor, while FvS only get Medium. Not that that matters a huge amount, but it is a difference.

One other thing to point out, is that Clerics get a lot more spell slots. Mostly by virtue of having all the Cure spells automatically memorized without taking up a normal slot. But they get more slots anyway, similar to how Wizards have more slots than Sorcerers.

[Anderei]

Some things: The spell point gap is actually a bit smaller, since clerics as well as caster FvS maximize Wis, but only clerics get SP bonus for this. Yes the cap does not completly go away, but makes it smaller then shown above.

Second, for new players, the cleric is still the better devine pick, not only it saves TPs it allows you to famalirize you with all the spells.

Actually I always wanted to do also a devine/trapmonkey splash, I tried a lot to do it with FvS but never were happy with the result. Altough I didn't want to drop CHA under 14, since this would not net to a natural 19 being able to cast spells without CHA item, or being hit by disruption. In that special case, I still went with cleric.

[Progen]

Also although it isn't a distinct advantage and something you already alluded to with the spells they get, Clerics make for better splashes (especially with monk) as they can still get access to some of the higher level spells.

[sirgog]

Divine Might IV is +8 sacred bonus to damage, i.e., considering one-handed weapons, as if your STR was 16 points higher.

It's not nearly that good, as it's only the damage component of the high Str (no extra +To-Hit, no extra save DC on combat feats). It's still good for odd builds.

One thing that tempers the weapon advantages FvS's get is that they are pigeonholed into using pretty weak weapons in general. FvS's can't take advantage of these abilities and racial weapon enhancements except by going Elf, which is probably the second weakest race for melees (32 point Elf > Drow > 28 Elf at the bottom end).

Switching spellls is better than you give it credit for - there's plenty of overall weak but situationally awesome spells. Take Implosion for example. No level 20 that's frequently running Epics and raids will want this spell perma-loaded, as it's useless in the game's hardest content. But when you go and run a few favor runs (even in content that isn't trivially easy, like elite Vale of Twilight), it's an incredibly powerful spell. Ditto for Symbol of Persuasion - a spell that trivialises many quests yet is too situational for most FvS's to fit in.


All in all, however, I agree that Clerics could use some love to push them up to the level of FvS's.

[Progen]

How are they pigeon holed into using specific weapons? They get specific martial weapons prof. for free! As opposed to clerics who get none. And suppose that both the cleric and favored soul want to use something like bastard swords. They still both have to spend a feat and neither has any advantage.

[Goldeneye]

Some things: The spell point gap is
actually a bit smaller, since clerics as well as caster FvS
maximize Wis, but only clerics get SP bonus for this. Yes the
cap does not completly go away, but makes it smaller then
shown above.

Favored Soul:
8 Low BASE CHA 6 ITEM 2 AP 2 TOME 2 EXC = 20 (+5) = 145sp from stat
Cleric:
20 max BASE WIS 6 ITEM 3 AP 2 TOME 2 EXC 5 RANK = 38 (+14) = 406sp from stat

=261sp difference... not much difference for a minimum cha fvs, and a max wis clr.



Also although it isn't a distinct
advantage and something you already alluded to with the
spells they get, Clerics make for better splashes (especially
with monk) as they can still get access to some of the higher
level spells.

Good point, I did not mention that.

[Rusty_Can]

"
Though 20 base charisma is a pretty steep requirement for something that lasts 1 minute?

Aye. DM IV (20 base CHA and 4 APs) is expensive; but 14 base CHA (DM II with +2 tome and DM III with +4 tome) is affordable on many builds (non dwarves and non WF). Depending on gear and enhancements, starting with 14 CHA, you can easily get 12-15 uses of Turn Undead ability per rest, without gimping yourself (i.e. spending just some APs for Extra Turning I and II); OTOH, Divine Might is an active ability and its activation is often annoying.

As a side note, I think it was mainly meant to help paladins.



Child: +1 to-hit


Clerics can get this also, spending 2 APs (Faith: Basic Tenets).

[Progen]

Also the Favored Soul's stat of CHA can go higher with a drow, which benefits it more than a cleric.

[Anderei]

=261sp difference... not much difference for a minimum cha fvs, and a max wis clr.


yes 216 is not much. but you might still correct the 915 SP gap from above to 699SP.

[Freeman]

To me, it comes down to spell slots. Not the ability to switch spells, but the total number, particularly for 6th and 9th level spells. A Favored Soul gets 3 of each. For 6th level spells, you have to pick between Mass Cure Mod, Heal, Blade Barrier, and Cometfall(Banishment is also nice to swap in while leveling), all of which are spells I use constantly on my cleric. For 9th level, I like Energy Drain, Implosion, True Res, Mass Heal, and even the Hezrou can be fun. While a Favored Soul has to pick three at each of these levels, a cleric can have five each. Don't get me wrong, I have one of each currently(Just started leveling my Favored Soul), but I already know that I'm going to go without some things I take for granted on my cleric. Yes, wings are nice, but nothing's more satisfying to me personally than dropping a Cometfall on a group of enemies and watching them fall over.

A Favored Soul has more spell points than a cleric, just like a sorc has more spell points than a wizard. There is no absolute answer as to which is better(In either case), only opinions that depend on the preferences of the person playing more than any actual in-game number.

[Goldeneye]

I really like it when people bring up the
Favored Souls are to Clerics as
Sorcerers are to Wizards


Why? Because wizards get:
5 Feats!!!!
Ton of Skill Points
Kick-ass capstone
much much better spell selection


if clerics got 1 of those benefits, they might be on par w/ FvS

I guess my conclusion should actually be:

CLERICS NEED SOME LOVE

[Progen]

I think getting bonus healing related feats would even them up.

[Anderei]

I agree.

Fix captsone to something more useful.

How about domains? This another DnD classic clerics get while FvS don't.

[Zuldar]

Clerics can get this also, spending 2 APs (Faith: Basic Tenets).

You're thinking of the basic faith enhancements which are different from that feat. On a side note fvs can get that enhancement as well.

[Rusty_Can]

It's not nearly that good, as it's only the damage component of the high Str (no extra +To-Hit, no extra save DC on combat feats). It's still good for odd builds.


True. My point of view about Divine Might was pretty much the same, but then I slightly modified it:
- using one-handed weapons, DM II provides almost the same improvement (4) to damage as Power Attack (5), without any penalty to attack rolls;
- furthermore, you don't need to spend a feat (PA) to improve your melee damage output.

In order to get DM II, you need 14 starting CHA (affordable on any non-dwarf non-WF build) and a +2 tome; further on, a +4 tome might unlock DM III. Ofc, you still need to hit stuff .......

Now, so far, I haven't rolled a STR & CHA based melee cleric, but it might be interesting ^^

[sirgog]

How are they pigeon holed into using specific weapons? They get specific martial weapons prof. for free! As opposed to clerics who get none. And suppose that both the cleric and favored soul want to use something like bastard swords. They still both have to spend a feat and neither has any advantage.

I'm pointing out that the FvS weapon abilities, whilst good, are not as strong as the OP indicated.

It'sworth pointing out that whilst it is situational, Clerics have one of the best capstones in DDO too, which makes a massive difference in the two hardest non-epic raids (Tower of Despair and Accursed Ascension). Tower in particular it makes a huge difference as it allows mediocre tanks (that cannot survive rolling a 1 on Disintegrate unless they were at full health before it) to effectively tank Horoth, preventing him from gaining the ~50000 hp boost he gets when a player dies.

[DoctorWhofan]

Aye. DM IV (20 base CHA and 4 APs) is expensive; but 14 base CHA (DM II with +2 tome and DM III with +4 tome) is affordable on many builds (non dwarves and non WF). Depending on gear and enhancements, starting with 14 CHA, you can easily get 12-15 uses of Turn Undead ability per rest, without gimping yourself (i.e. spending just some APs for Extra Turning I and II); OTOH, Divine Might is an active ability and its activation is often annoying.

As a side note, I think it was mainly meant to help paladins.



Clerics can get this also, spending 2 APs (Faith: Basic Tenets).

There isn't a DV IV.

[Rusty_Can]

There isn't a DV IV.

*clears throat* Milady, we were talking about Divine Might (DM) IV , not Divine Vitality ^^ ...

[moops]

Im probably the only one, but I still prefer my Cleric to my FVS, and it comes down to the spell slots--Im an aggressive offensive caster and I can't stand having only 3 Level 6 Spell slots on my FVS--I use BB, Harm, Comet Fall all the time, and then of course since I raid alot i have the Heal spell Mass Cure loaded for lvl 6. Plus I think that my FVS will always be at least 1 DC lower then my cleric--Only an issue because I like to do more than BB.

[Auran82]

Well, clerics do get Domains after all, right? Right?

*crickets*

[HeavenlyCloud]

I actually think the cleric capstone is way better than the Favored Soul Capstone.

[lord_of_rage]

There isn't a DV IV.

Doc welcome back:).

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not sure about this but observing the pain that my guildy is in having rolled up a level 4 FvS I can see some differences in the level 1-10 realm for FvS and Cleric.

In these levels FvS SUCK. Only a few spells to choose from you can't buff/offensive cast/heal all at once, just not enough choices. Am I right or am I right?

Clerics on the other hand ROCK. I burned through to level ~10 on the strength of turn undead by itself. My cleric could literally clear a wing of the bloody crypt faster than a firewalling wizard could. It was awesome. I don't know if you know the bloody crypt but it's a big crypt split up into 4 sections, a good group can split up and take a section each and finish it in 10-20 minutes for 10-15k xp which is pretty good at level 6-8. Not to mention some of the nice loot that drops there (Blood Docent).

Now at level 20 I can certainly see the edge that FvS has on clerics simply because of their enormous spell point pool but I don't mind too much as I can still pull out Fluffy the Hezrou and know that I have the important 9th level spells ready to go as well. It becomes much more important use the cleric radiant servant abilities to complement your healing to balance out your lower SP pool. That's why you'll see me in part 2 and part 4 of shroud spamming radiant servant burst.

[Goldeneye]

Levels 1-10 are a joke.
Levels 1-6 can easily be done in a day, and 7-10 are equally as fast.

This post was made in February, before Radiant Servant.... which has brought clerics back to life a little. In addition, people are finally learning how to properly use the cleric capstone.

Still, Clerics better have some good PrE's on the way, cause they aren't on par w/ FvS yet (in my opinion)

[LookingForABentoBox]

I agree FvSs are better but you forgot to add that clerics get spells one level earlier

[phalaeo]

I don't think any thread on these forums has made me angrier than this one.

[ghettoGenius]

Im probably the only one, but I still prefer my Cleric to my FVS, and it comes down to the spell slots--Im an aggressive offensive caster and I can't stand having only 3 Level 6 Spell slots on my FVS--I use BB, Harm, Comet Fall all the time, and then of course since I raid alot i have the Heal spell Mass Cure loaded for lvl 6. Plus I think that my FVS will always be at least 1 DC lower then my cleric--Only an issue because I like to do more than BB.

^ This.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Cleric vs. FvS again ay? Well here you go. I have a TRed cleric (20 again, yay!), capped intimicleric, capped FvS. All with greensteel. Here is my comparison of the two:

Favored Soul
Things that do matter:

Wings -it is nice, not as nice as some tout
Saves - very nice, synergizes well with the 18 fvs/2 monk
Weapon enhancements - +4 to damage, +1 to hit and proficiency with a single weapon
Loss of inventory space - my personal pet peeve with the FvS and caring around all those scrolls

Things that don't:

Damage reduction - only useful in intensive solo play, everywhere else stoneskin clickies
Mana - endgame, it just isn't needed in a proficient player, there are many ways to get mana in quests and raids (in the few times you do need more - I usually nuke on my cleric at the end of raids to burn the extra mana I have)
Elemental resistances - I have the protection spells and can heal myself
Capstone - heal scrolls are better than the healing one, the damage one -maybe, both require continuous activation of emp and max to be effective (which leads to massive overhealing an low efficiency)

Cleric
Things that matter:

Turning related abilities - useful to some degree, radiant servant very useful
+1 higher wisdom - As an offensive caster, DCs are everything
Capstone - unique ability that can save a raid, increased survivability elsewhere as it is self appliable
Spell versatility - it matters to those that actually have decent DCs, matters more in epics with update
Weapon enhancements - +0-8 to damage (with everything), +1 to hit and proficiency (single weapon)
Radiant servant - healing efficiencies of MCSW and MCCW are better than mass heal, with better response time and spot healing capability

Things that don't:
Heavy armor proficiency - who cares

I think that's it. Player skill and knowledge may change some peoples viewpoints on the categorization of these and I think is the heart of the reason behind preferences. I personally prefer my clerics and just bring out my Favored Soul when on timer with those now adays. I have been struggling with what to do with my favored soul to make him more fun to play. I just feel gimpy whenever I log him on. I have put raid gear on him and greensteel, just can't shake that feeling though. I'm leaning towards a lesser reincarnate to change him up currently.

To new players trying to make a decision, here is my take on it: If you want to be a healbot you should be a favored soul (radiant servant may change this for proficient players). If you want to be able to fight or offensive cast and heal they are about even in ability with different flavors. If you want to be able to fight, offensive cast, and heal the cleric is the best choice. It comes down to how good do you want this character to be? Do you just pull him out to raid/quest if your friends need a healer - be a FvS. Do you want this to be one of your main toons, that you spend time perfecting and learning how to really play - be a cleric.

[Irinis]

Cleric capstone is awesome.

Better, schmetter.

Sure Clerics need some love, but I love my pure Cleric, my Clonk AND my FvS.

[Goldeneye]

To new players trying to make a decision, here is my take on it: If you want to be a healbot you should be a favored soul (radiant servant may change this for proficient players). If you want to be able to fight or offensive cast and heal they are about even in ability with different flavors. If you want to be able to fight, offensive cast, and heal the cleric is the best choice. It comes down to how good do you want this character to be? Do you just pull him out to raid/quest if your friends need a healer - be a FvS. Do you want this to be one of your main toons, that you spend time perfecting and learning how to really play - be a cleric.

Good summary! Though I disagree w/ your last paragraph.
Favored Souls are better solo-ers, and offensive casters.
Extra SP: they can afford to spam comet falls, and always run w/ all metamagics on.
The combination of wings and BB is nasty, add in DR and FvS are next to impossible to take down. Even the mini free CLW adds up well over a long period of time.

Clerics lack the

speed
jump
wings
DR
free healing
extra sp
saves

that Favored Souls get.

Because of a cleric' ability to
pick up all the mass heal spells
have the capstone
Radiant Servant

I would argue that the dev's have designed Clerics to be the Heal-bot, while FvS are better at solo-ing, speed runs, and offensive casting.

[Goldeneye]

I don't think any thread on these forums has made me angrier than this one.

Sounds like you disagree, yet have failed to make an argument :)

[sirgog]

Cleric vs. FvS again ay? Well here you go. I have a TRed cleric (20 again, yay!), capped intimicleric, capped FvS. All with greensteel. Here is my comparison of the two:

Favored Soul
Things that do matter:

Wings -it is nice, not as nice as some tout
Saves - very nice, synergizes well with the 18 fvs/2 monk
Weapon enhancements - +4 to damage, +1 to hit and proficiency with a single weapon
Loss of inventory space - my personal pet peeve with the FvS and caring around all those scrolls

Things that don't:

Damage reduction - only useful in intensive solo play, everywhere else stoneskin clickies
Mana - endgame, it just isn't needed in a proficient player, there are many ways to get mana in quests and raids (in the few times you do need more - I usually nuke on my cleric at the end of raids to burn the extra mana I have)
Elemental resistances - I have the protection spells and can heal myself
Capstone - heal scrolls are better than the healing one, the damage one -maybe, both require continuous activation of emp and max to be effective (which leads to massive overhealing an low efficiency)

Cleric
Things that matter:

Turning related abilities - useful to some degree, radiant servant very useful
+1 higher wisdom - As an offensive caster, DCs are everything
Capstone - unique ability that can save a raid, increased survivability elsewhere as it is self appliable
Spell versatility - it matters to those that actually have decent DCs, matters more in epics with update
Weapon enhancements - +0-8 to damage (with everything), +1 to hit and proficiency (single weapon)
Radiant servant - healing efficiencies of MCSW and MCCW are better than mass heal, with better response time and spot healing capability

Things that don't:
Heavy armor proficiency - who cares

I think that's it. Player skill and knowledge may change some peoples viewpoints on the categorization of these and I think is the heart of the reason behind preferences. I personally prefer my clerics and just bring out my Favored Soul when on timer with those now adays. I have been struggling with what to do with my favored soul to make him more fun to play. I just feel gimpy whenever I log him on. I have put raid gear on him and greensteel, just can't shake that feeling though. I'm leaning towards a lesser reincarnate to change him up currently.

To new players trying to make a decision, here is my take on it: If you want to be a healbot you should be a favored soul (radiant servant may change this for proficient players). If you want to be able to fight or offensive cast and heal they are about even in ability with different flavors. If you want to be able to fight, offensive cast, and heal the cleric is the best choice. It comes down to how good do you want this character to be? Do you just pull him out to raid/quest if your friends need a healer - be a FvS. Do you want this to be one of your main toons, that you spend time perfecting and learning how to really play - be a cleric.

You really underrate DR and the elemental resistances.

There is an enormous difference in survivability between a 30 and a 40 fire resist. A Max-Empped Meteor Swarm (as cast by Arraetrikos, Horoth and others) with two failed and two successful saves deals 210 and 175 average damage respectively. Four ticks of Shavarrath Lava (Tower of Despair part 1, after a nasty wing buffet) deals 260 and 220 average damage respectively.

In both of those cases, the extra stacking resist is often the difference between 'OMG I need to heal myself NOW' and 'ooh, I need to heal myself soon, but I've got time to heal a party member that needs it more than me' (especially as FvSs have more HP than clerics do).

The DR is huge, and IMO makes WF Favored Souls the best VoD tanks other than extreme AC toons.

[TreknaQudane]

I really like it when people bring up the
Favored Souls are to Clerics as
Sorcerers are to Wizards


Why? Because wizards get:
5 Feats!!!!
Ton of Skill Points
Kick-ass capstone
much much better spell selection


if clerics got 1 of those benefits, they might be on par w/ FvS

I guess my conclusion should actually be:

Actually, Wizards only get 2 Skill points. The fact they gain a bonus from their intelligence doesn't matter since any high Int character would.

Clerics already get the wider spell selection like wizards, and adding good spells adds them for FvS too.

The best thing that could happen to Clerics would be the addition of domains (imo)

[Vynnt]

A lot of the pluses in the outdated OP are wasted AP. Sure if you had unlimited AP, you could get them all, but for the most part, you can't.

The free capstone heal is nothing compared to the Radiant Aura or the Radiant Burst Heal thingy.

Not to mention, problems like
Cure Serious, Mass
Destruction
Greater Restoration
Protection from Elements, Mass
Resurrection
Spell Resistance, Mass
- Pick 3

That said, I play a FvS :D

[Diib]

Good summary! Though I disagree w/ your last paragraph.
Favored Souls are better solo-ers, and offensive casters.
...
I would argue that the dev's have designed Clerics to be the Heal-bot, while FvS are better at solo-ing, speed runs, and offensive casting.

I disagree on the soloing part. I do a lot of soloing and I've found that radiant servant makes soloing much easier. By myself I'm able to use almost all sp after buffs on offensive casting... sp on self healing starts to feel like a waste.

A favored soul is faster (wings), and has more sp for offensive casting which matters... but at the very least I don't think the cleric is at any disadvantage soloing vs. the favored soul.


However, I have 3 trd divine characters, and two are favored souls and only 1 is a cleric. I personally enjoy a multiclassed heavy favored soul build more than a similar cleric build.

[Diib]

The real question is will clerics still be competitive once/if favored souls ever get some PrEs.

[Vynnt]

I disagree on the soloing part. I do a lot of soloing and I've found that radiant servant makes soloing much easier. By myself I'm able to use almost all sp after buffs on offensive casting... sp on self healing starts to feel like a waste.

A favored soul is faster (wings), and has more sp for offensive casting which matters... but at the very least I don't think the cleric is at any disadvantage soloing vs. the favored soul.
When soloing something like Sins, 10+ DR saves more self healing sp than Radiant Servant can even hope to save.

Also, wing speed is unaffected by Harried, so kiting through BBs is that much easier.

[Timmeke123456]

Here is a list of why Favored Souls make better builds then clerics:



Enhancements:

Favored Soul Attack Boost: +5 Attack/20s
Favored Soul Damage Boost: +5 Damage/20s
Favored Soul Saves Boost: +5 Saves/20s
Charisma III and Wisdom II

Weapon Specialization:

Favored: Proficiency
Child: +1 to-hit
Beloved: +2 Damage
Specialization (AP) +2 Damage

Passive Traits:

Energy Resistance: +10 pts (stacks)
Jump as a Class Skill
+6 Reflex Save
10 Damage Reduction
Favored Soul Toughness IV: +40 HP


Capstone:

+2 CHA
Free Spells: such as:

Cure Light Wounds
Invisibility
Searing Light


Leap of Faith

That's right they get wings.

More Spell Points: TOTAL: +915

525 just for being a Favored Soul
200 For double Archmagi
150 from double Greensteel
40 more from Energy of the Scion





in COMPARISON:
Unique Cleric abilities:

Divine Vitality
Divine Might: +8 damage, requires 20 CHA
Inferior Capstone
Turn Undead
+1 Wisdom
Swapping Spells
Heavy Armor proficiency :P






There are two arguments that people always bring up to defend clerics.

Argument 1:
Favored Souls have 2 main stats (WIS, and CHA), while Clerics have 1.
Point 1:
Favored Souls have enough SP.... you don't really need to worry about CHA.
For every 2 points in CHA, favored souls get 29 sp at level 20.... so what if your CHA is low?

Point 2: Look at the unique qualities. Which ones require CHA?
Turn Undead, DV's, Divine Might, Capstone) use CHA.
Yes, that's right, 4 / 6 cleric abilities need CHA to reach full potential....

Argument 2:
Clerics can swap spells.
Point 1: While this is crucial to some people, it isn't a deal-breaker. Look at a clerics spell list.... and observe:

1.) How many spells are useless
2.) How many spells you can get away with scrolling
3.) How many of your lower heal spells... you NEVER use.



Anyway, I hope this post encourages you to make less clerics, and more favored souls.
In conclusion: don't listen to me, make whatever you want, and let me say "ha ha, told you so" when you're a level 20 cleric and realize that favored souls are better.

How 'bout the Clr Radiant boosts/auras ? A fvs can't do better than that :D those are free heals/hp regen right there with no need to spend any sp ;)

[TheDearLeader]

How 'bout the Clr Radiant boosts/auras ? A fvs can't do better than that :D those are free heals/hp regen right there with no need to spend any sp ;)

How about he made this thread:

02-18-2010, 06:49 PM

Before Radiant Servant existed? At the time of his original post, your commentary would seem to make as much sense as a couple of cats + firecrackers in a burlap sack.

Nice thread Necro.

[barakhiel]

Something close to a year ago, I would have fully agreed with the arguments in this post... After a few capped characters and seriously testing builds to the limit, invariably, versatility is the greatest power any build can posess, a trait that is fairly lacking in Favoured Souls. Favoured Souls really are the general-purpose, keep-the-party-up-in-most-situations type class. Having capped some very different FvS builds, I am comfortable saying that this inflexibility is horribly painful while leveling and makes it far more difficult to be sufficient in the more challenging epics (evon3-5, epic chains, epic deeps, etc) due to your inability to change your spell selection (and your approach) to a given situation.

The strongest argument really is the difference in max sp, which unfortunately becomes irrelevant given a build's end-game gear; the number of clickies, items, and item sets that provide sp regen and reduce sp costs continues to grow with each update, meaning a fully geared cleric can have effectively over 3500 sp unincluding whatever amount he can regen from Conc Opp, Torc, etc...

A decent argument favors the inherent DR, which is something that truly makes pure FvS blow multiclasses out of the water, since they have effectively 10 more HP per hit they take (and somehow FvS always end up taking a lot of hits). However, there are even now more numerous items and armors (many Heavy Armor, beyond the granted abilities of FvS to take advantage of) that will grant, even if lesser, DR that provides decent longevity.

A weaker argument will point out the benefits of Leap of Faith, which, while convenient (and admittedly fun at first), are inconsequential beyond very limited exploits in specific quests. Granted, it is (besides Abundant Step) the only way to rush from DA Harried (especially since you can no longer Tumble through it), but it is, again, unnecessary. A Cleric can easily kite through Blade Barriers as well, with or without wings.

An even weaker argument is to give the mere suggestion that a FvS can pass as a melee class. As mentioned prior, they do get +2 dmg via granted feat and optionally more from enhancements, but these do not add up to very large numbers. Another point that should be reinforced is that FvS do not get proficiency with impressive weapons by any means, the exception being the scimitars of the Undying Court. Shortswords are little more than an offhand to cushion the penalty for not having Oversized TWF for characters that suffer from a low Attack Bonus, Greatswords deal an estimated 4.5% less dps than a Falchion, lacking both crit range and multiplier, longswords needn't even be considered, and longbows are only notable for the 20 seconds that manyshot is on...

I truly grew to hate playing my melee FvS, since the "dps" was truly incomparable to that of any other melee class, and all she really could do was be able to self-heal while beating on something until it died, *not* beat it down quickly. Truth be told, FvS lack all the various enhancements from which Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, yes Rogues and Rangers as well, derive the majority of their dps, meaning a max-Str, min-Cha, min-Wis WF FvS, fully geared (min2 Greatsword of course, what every FvS needs) after months of grinding (lucky enough to get a +4 Str tome too!) is still doing about 1/5 the dps of a WF Pally rolled on a day off and played on the weekends to cap, just using the Holy Sword Greatsword since he's too lazy to find a decent Falchion...

The weakest argument must invariably be the claim that the extra 6 pts towards the Reflex save makes any difference at cap. Unincluding the Dex bonus, this means you will be looking at a maximum Reflex save of 33 (12 Base +5 Resistance +6 Epic +1 Eldrich, +2 Greater Parrying, +4 Greater Heroism, +1 Haste, +2 Good Luck) without taking any special feats or other classes and having ground out an Epic Kundarak Warding Shield and Head of Good Fortune (GH clicky and Haste pots will be the easiest parts to come by); most FvS will be looking at a Reflex save of 24 (12 Base +3 Resistance from Nightshield, +1 Eldritch, +4 Greater Heroism, +2 Dex, +1 Luck from Prayer, and +1 from Haste while in party with a decent arcane). 33 sounds like an awesome number considering pvp, where you rarely see player character caster DCs go beyond 34, *however*, in far too much endgame content, you should expect DCs to be high 40s to mid 50s, especially in epics, which will truly put your build to the test. Hence the most important question you should ask before splashing 2 mnk; is evasion worth giving up DR 10 and capstone (+2 Cha if anything) if you need to roll a 20 for it to take effect?

I might make a recommendation that we should all take to heart; instead of just saying "this build is higher dps" "these are good saves" " that build is gimp," etc, it would be nice to see that some of the players hold any level of honesty in showing actual numbers instead of simply thinking they are cooler by toting a stick they claim to be bigger than yours...

In fairness, I haven't detailed how much farther behind FvS are now with the Clr prestiges (Clerics have plenty of elbow-room).

[Wizard_Zero]

Remember when FvS first came out and it was all cool and exciting, heal and do melee damage... but in reality when you joined a group, it was: "You are a healer first, melee second... but mostly just a healer"

Used to be a pure FvS would join a group and say: "I don't heal." And people be like "Don't tell me you can't heal, I don't care how combat oriented your FvS is, I know you built that toon with some type of healing capability."

Yup... I don't see many FvS anymore, I see probably 15 clerics to every 1 FvS now, so I'm guess most of the community prefers clerics over FvS now.

[Riorik]

When soloing something like Sins, 10+ DR saves more self healing sp than Radiant Servant can even hope to save.

Also, wing speed is unaffected by Harried, so kiting through BBs is that much easier.

All this is a major thread necro. Back when this particular thread was opened, there were some arguments in favor of the Favored Souls. I think some were irrelevant, particularly spell points...a lot of this was pointed out by Samulus


Cleric vs. FvS again ay?

Vynnt, I don't think you're wrong on the effects of Radiant Servant...I think you're DEAD WRONG. You missed the obvious stoneskin effect. Sure it has to be renewed but if you're serious about soloing, you'll make it happen because it's that useful. Radiant Servants get to do continuous background healing using an enhancement that self-regenerates almost as fast as you can use it. And that's just in the limited focus solo world. Throw in a party member and you've now doubled the benefits...a third would triple (from the original 1 solo player), make it a raid and it's 12x.

The effects are most dramatic in epic raids where I'm often ending up with a significant portion of my spell bar unused unless I try to burn it out.

Congratulations on mentioning how Wing Speed isn't affected by the harried effect. If they weren't aware of it, you probably just brought it up for a bugfix. Temporary, short term or not-WAI benefits don't really qualify as a reason one thing is better than another.

[Steveohio]

I come from playing a main as a FVS, I have had 4 capped FVS now through a few past lives. A pure 20 WF FVS (melkors), a 18/2 Scimitar str efl (impaqts), a 30dex/34wis drow finesse/evocaster 18/2 build of mine, and a 16/2/2 dwarf mutt build of mine thats impossible to kill.

I recently TR'd to a Legend Cleric Clonk build, via pure WF FVS and 18/2melee soul as I felt the dps, survivability, and everything in general was no where near as good as the 16/2/2 with 600hp and 40+ saves +60atk and full healing spec.

Anyways, Clerics EASILY AND HANDILY OWN favored souls in regards to healing. The Healing potential of a lvl 6 cleric is better than a lvl 14 FVS. Spell selection versitily is again another huge factor, you get those spells much eariler, and are much more powerful early in the game due to this.

While I think FVS DPS is good, its not top tier, Scimitar users generally the best due to +4/3. Clerics, with easily obtainable 18 chr, have +6dmg to any weapons, don't have to pick a single weapon to stay with.

Another valueable assist, is the free healing provided, as a player.. my goal is to be a battle healer. Able to fill the most vital group role, while as the same time contributing via dps, and spells situationally. That said, I really hate having to use MY sp to take care of others stupidity. With the various sources of free healing available to a cleric, less resources of mine need to be used on others.

I do like the +HP and +DR of the FVS, but 30-40hp from enhancments, and 10dr vs 5dr(easily obtained for anyone) are not deal breakers, and those are really the only things significantly there that matter. Don't tell me about wings, its not needed for anything.

I would actually have to put Clerics actually better in my initial foray into the class after running 4 FVS's, of which I consider them some of the top fvs builds in the game.

This is based solely on my experiences with my clonk build, whom is now lvl 13. Things may change at cap, but right now, the Clonk has far more versitility and power than any of the FVS's I've rolled with up to this point.

[Goldeneye]

Wow. this thread lives. Excellent.
I've gotten more negative rep in this one thread then I have in all my other posts combined. People don't like disagreeing.

Radiant servant is really only a temporary advantage vs. favored soul. Clerics aren't going to like it when FvS prestiges come out.

[Shareeth]

Now that FvS Pres is out, what is the new thought of the Cl vs. FvS?

edit: yes i suppose i should have started a new thread, sorry! or further yet, prolly just pm'd Goldeneye directly, since he's the only one that seems to give useful information.

[Vellrad]

I prefer to take cleric over FvS to my team, unless I know them.
Both can heal well enough, but almost none FvS will swap his lv6 spell for harm, when I ask him to do it.

[Goldeneye]

Wow - talk about back from the dead.
IMO: The cleric radiant servant was a pretty good "balancer" for the 2 classes. Personally, I still think FvS are more powerful then clerics (especially w/ their current PrE) - but I can understand players going either way.

In all, I'm just getting really sick of Turbine making over-powered sh*t, and making money off it. Turbine has a financial interest to hurt the balance of the game.

[IWZincedge]

Sleep tight, sweet thread.