Monk alignment

[StrixAluco]

I have searched the forums with no luck so far. Could anyone be nice to fill me in on the pros and cons of choosing good or neutral for a dex/wis halfling monk?

[Goldeneye]

Good allows you to use Pure Good Weapons.

[StrixAluco]

Yeah, that is a good reason to go good, especially since it is hard to maintain a proper UMD on a monk, so I was wondering if there is any reason to choose neutral over good?

[rimble]

Good - Pure Good weapons and Raise Dead ring (requires Good, not UMDable)

Neutral - No damage from some alignment based attacks, can use Litany of the Dead without penalty

That's all I got.

[StrixAluco]

Thanks a lot for enlightening me!

So it seems to me like the best reason to choose neutral is to be able to use Litany of Death without a penalty, and the real question which pros outweighs the others...

[sinedist]

erhm... unless I'm mistaken, handwraps, good or not, do not have an alignment requirement.

[rest]

erhm... unless I'm mistaken, handwraps, good or not, do not have an alignment requirement.

Correct, except the new named wraps that drop from Deleras are pure good and require the corresponding UMD to use for non-good characters. I'm afraid the "no UMD for PG handwraps" is a bug, but if they fixed it they'd probably be able to give us GS wraps which I'm certain they won't do.

[sinedist]

Thanks, Rest.

So basically you gain very little by going lawful good... access to a single mediocre item that requires an awful grind to get and is quickly replaced end-game.

I would advice going Lawful Neutral. Almost always. You avoid certain damage types, get unhindered access to Litany of the Dead (arguably one of the best items a monk can have as a MAD class), and get access to a few more items along the way that carry the "negative level" business.

[Roguewiz]

Basically, yes. The difference between LG and LN is rather small. LG opens up access to "good" based items, as already stated. It also allows you to MC Paladin if you so desire. LN can't do that.

Also, already stated, LN doesn't take extra damage from the annoying archers that do extra damage vs. good. Trust me, it sucks.

I wish evil alignments were possible. I've always enjoyed Lawful Evil =)

[rimble]

Correct, except the new named wraps that drop from Deleras are pure good and require the corresponding UMD to use for non-good characters. I'm afraid the "no UMD for PG handwraps" is a bug, but if they fixed it they'd probably be able to give us GS wraps which I'm certain they won't do.

Well, and there are times you might want to whip out some Kamas or a Quarterstaff or something. Admittedly, at least for my playstyle, it's not often at all, but something to keep in mind.

[rest]

Well, and there are times you might want to whip out some Kamas or a Quarterstaff or something. Admittedly, at least for my playstyle, it's not often at all, but something to keep in mind.

Absolutely. But for me if that need arises, I'll rock em out with holy weapons that have no alignment restriction :D

[Impatiens]

Neutral allows you to use things with a taint of evil (like the Litany of the Dead trinket) without taking a negative level. Neutral characters also will not take some types of damage that evil mobs do since they do extra damage versus good. Currently you only need good to use the handwraps from Delera's (which are holy not pure good as someone stated earlier they just have a good requirement for flavor/lore reasons I guess) and if you have some pure good kamas or quarterstaves that you may want to situationally use. I have some vorpal of pure good kamas that I'll probably miss when I go neutral after I TR, though with the proper gear and skill points it is not impossible to maintain a 20 UMD for Pure Good items at end game, just a little annoying.

[The_Duck]

Yeah, the Devout Handwraps for some reason do not require good alignment even though they are Metalline of Pure good. Interesting.

[Fafnir]

I would suggest LG if it's your first run through, or more casual, and LN if you're doing a TR.

Metalline Kamas of PG are reasonably easy to get, and require Good aligned, compared with getting Litany unless you have a guild support group keen to run that raid. This gives you access to DR bypass more easily than getting Devouts.

[Lynxmark]

So since all these monks are on one place what is a good hp for a 14th monk. Im thinking I might trade toughness and loose my two enhancements with it for imp twf.

Where in delaras do them devout drop?

[Lynxmark]

I would suggest LG if it's your first run through, or more casual, and LN if you're doing a TR.

Metalline Kamas of PG are reasonably easy to get, and require Good aligned, compared with getting Litany unless you have a guild support group keen to run that raid. This gives you access to DR bypass more easily than getting Devouts.


I dont understand how alingment works with dr , lynxmark

[Fennario]

neutral ... just in case you pull some unholy burst handwraps of pure evil.
















:D

[Impatiens]

I dont understand how alingment works with dr , lynxmark

It doesn't specifically, but many end game bosses require silver AND good to bypass their DR, this is usually most easily accomplished with metalline of pure good items and Fafnir was suggesting that it would be easier to get metalline of pure good kamas (which would require good or UMD 20 to use) rather than the Devout handwraps from Shadow Crypt.

[Fafnir]

I dont understand how alingment works with dr , lynxmark

I found it relatively easier to get Transmuting Kama of PG, which has a Good alignment requirement, than it was to get Metalline of PG wraps. I have also come across vorpal kamas of pg as well. Prior to getting geared with an extensive handwrap collection, or with the Litany of the Dead, it can be easier to get gear that is helpful and, in the case of the kama mentioned above, bypasses various DRs, by being Good aligned. Beign good also allows you to use Devotion straight up.

I would just consider that at the char select screen. Longer term, on a TR, I would advocate like others that you go LN.

[sinedist]

Metalline Wraps are dropping more frequently. Kamas should never be in use on a monk unless they are vorpals.

Go neutral.

[Uska]

So since all these monks are on one place what is a good hp for a 14th monk. Im thinking I might trade toughness and loose my two enhancements with it for imp twf.

Where in delaras do them devout drop?

Well my monk at 14 has 340 hp and delera drops the devtotion handwraps (endreward I belive) the devot drop in the shadow crypt extra chest

[Uska]

Metalline Wraps are dropping more frequently. Kamas should never be in use on a monk unless they are vorpals.

Go neutral.



I used kamas at early levels they were easier to get as were quarterstaffs, I still think the bennies of good outweigh those of being neutral and I have a good guild that could help me do litanty.

[Impatiens]

I used kamas at early levels they were easier to get as were quarterstaffs, I still think the bennies of good outweigh those of being neutral and I have a good guild that could help me do litanty.

What are the benefits of good other than pure good items which really aren't that big of a benefit since the only handwraps that require good are the Delera's ones? Kamas and quarterstaves are almost never going to be better than wraps on a pure monk build and those are the only items you'd need to worry about being good for pure good modifiers. There are plenty of good wraps available, even at early levels, especially now that some have been added to quest loot tables. If you can't use the Delera's ones as a LN monk, there are always the Threnal ones to consider.

I really can't think of any other benefits to being good. There's...the ring of the ancestors...but raise dead clickies can also be acquired through greensteel crafting. Neutral provides other benefits besides no negative level from using Litany. Namely you don't take extra damage from mobs that have extra damage versus good, and there are a decent number of them. My monk is LG now, but will most definitely be LN when I TR her because I'd rather be able to use (arguably) the best monk trinket in the game with no negative level and not take extra damage versus good than be able to occasionally pull out my vorpal of pure good kamas. I'll just sell those for more than I paid and buy cheaper vorpals ;)

[sinedist]

In the present state of the game, the decision is a lot more simple than people are making it out to be.

Capped monk w/ Handwraps:
2d10 Base Damage, 10% faster than all other weapons, full STR bonus on all offhand hits, amazing synergy with bane effects, weighted, and full use of stunning fist, quivering palm, and touch of death if you're specc'd for it.

Capped monk w/ Kamas:
1d6 Base Damage, 10% slower than handwraps, half STR bonus on all offhand hits, ridiculous to find a collection of bane weapons for, no use of weighted, no SP, no QP, and no ToD.

Given that the DPS on a monk with even an anarchic/true law handwrap of G_B outweighs everything with DR on normal, you don't even need metalline to be doing more damage. If you are running end game quests on hard/elite, wielding a 1d6 metalline kama with a 1d6 effect (pure good) on it... rather than 2d10 fists with 2d6 <alignment> wraps of 2d6-3d6 bane-greater bane weapons... then... well...

There is a reason that the DPS on Monk/Tempests is a joke. This is to say nothing of the huge gain by having Litany of the Dead on a Multi-Ability-Distribution class.

[Fafnir]

You seem to like to compare an old, run down tricycle to a Porche Turbo, Sinedist. Both LG and LN can use handwraps. :) All I was saying is that for someone starting out, without Litany or a bunch of hand me down metalline of pg wraps, or Devouts, it can be easier to get some transmuting kamas when they are needed plus use Devotion, which is a reasonably reliable Threnal drop. And for a TR, as mentioned earlier, I would also recommend LN. I am LN myself.

[sinedist]

haha oi. The only reason I'm adamant about going lawful neutral is that I learned a lot of what people in this forum were talking about... after the fact.

If I wasn't TRing, I'd be much more upset. The best advice I can give is get into a ToD as soon as you feel ready. By the time you have your ninth trophy you'll surely have either rolled on or pulled your own ring.

Pop holy burst onto it. Then any metalline wraps you pull will beat demon DR.

But I digress.







(This is just for you, Fanfir:

Kama Wielder: "I swear my trike can go faster, guys"

Turbo Owners: *Engine Starts*

Kama: "Wait, wait! One of the back wheels fell off... Do you guys have a wrench?")

[Impatiens]

You seem to like to compare an old, run down tricycle to a Porche Turbo, Sinedist. Both LG and LN can use handwraps. :) All I was saying is that for someone starting out, without Litany or a bunch of hand me down metalline of pg wraps, or Devouts, it can be easier to get some transmuting kamas when they are needed plus use Devotion, which is a reasonably reliable Threnal drop. And for a TR, as mentioned earlier, I would also recommend LN. I am LN myself.

The point is though that something like Holy or Anarchic of GEOB or GLOB handwraps are still going to do more damage than metalline of PG kamas even without bypassing the mob's DR. People get pretty obsessive about the DR on some things, but if you have the right bane wraps it's really not a big deal, especially on normal difficulty levels. Also, Devotion is from Delera's not Threnal. The Threnal wraps have no alignment needed. If you really want to bypass DR you can always farm Shadow Crypts, which may be annoying but it isn't that difficult especially if you are doing it at the level where DR silver/good starts to really matter.

Again, the only thing I will miss when going LN are my pure good vorpals, which really isn't a big enough motivation to stay good compared with the benefits to going neutral.

[Fafnir]

I meant Deleras - I have them, not that I use them.

[Feuerhammer]

Where do people find Litany of the Dead that everyone talks about, and what exactly is it?

I don't understand the big deal about LG vs. LN and the ability to find holy/PG handwraps. I hardly ever see HW that are alignment dependant

[Taimasan]

obsessive about the DR on some things, but if you have the right bane wraps it's really not a big deal

Bypassing DR is always a big deal.

[DrakmireTS]

Eh..not really.

+2 Metalline of PG (pretend these dropped rather than were farmed from the Shadow Crypt):
+2 (ML 2) Metalline (ML 10) PG (ML 2) = ML 14

2d10 + STR + 2 + 1d6 =~16.5 + STR

vs

+2 Anarchic of Greater Evil Outsider Bane
+2 (ML 2) Anarchic (ML 4) GEOB (ML 8) = ML 14

(2d10 + STR + 2 + 4 - 15)(Floor of 0) + 2d6 + 3d6 = (11 + 2 + 4 -15 + STR) + 2d6+ 3d6 = 2 + STR + 7.0 + 10.5 = 12.5 + 7.0+ STR =~ 19.5 + STR

vs

+1 Metalline of GEOB
Metalline (ML 10) GEOB (ML 8) = ML 18

2d10 + STR + 2 + 4 + 3d6 = 11 + 6 + 10.5 + STR = 27.5 + STR

Comparing the first two vs the last (the holy grail of fist monks) isn't really fair, but I wanted to see what the ideal would put out. But as you can see, between equal comparison mods, it really isn't that big a deal to bypass the DR since it only floors the physical component, and in fact, the non-bypass ones actually outperform the ones fixated on bypassing DR.

[Fafnir]

Where do people find Litany of the Dead that everyone talks about, and what exactly is it?

I don't understand the big deal about LG vs. LN and the ability to find holy/PG handwraps. I hardly ever see HW that are alignment dependant

It's more Kamas, specifically Metalline of PG, if you do not have the Shadow Crypt wraps. You will often find holy of pg and metalline of pg kamas, and some vorpal of pg kamas; metalline of pg kamas allow you to bypass some DRs. Devotion are the Good only restricted wraps, but I personally don't use those, having better. I have general Holy of PG wraps and they are not Good only.

If you have Metalline of PG wraps, you should be LN, for the reasons ppl above cite.

Litany of the Dead is from the Abbott raid. It's not overly easy to get depending on your personal play circumstances as it's not a raid that get pugged often.

[Taimasan]

Eh..not really.

+2 Metalline of PG (pretend these dropped rather than were farmed from the Shadow Crypt):
+2 (ML 2) Metalline (ML 10) PG (ML 2) = ML 14

2d10 + STR + 2 + 1d6 =~16.5 + STR

vs

+2 Anarchic of Greater Evil Outsider Bane
+2 (ML 2) Anarchic (ML 4) GEOB (ML 8) = ML 14

(2d10 + STR + 2 + 4 - 15)(Floor of 0) + 2d6 + 3d6 = (11 + 2 + 4 -15 + STR) + 2d6+ 3d6 = 2 + STR + 7.0 + 10.5 = 12.5 + 7.0+ STR =~ 19.5 + STR

vs

+1 Metalline of GEOB
Metalline (ML 10) GEOB (ML 8) = ML 18

2d10 + STR + 2 + 4 + 3d6 = 11 + 6 + 10.5 + STR = 27.5 + STR

Comparing the first two vs the last (the holy grail of fist monks) isn't really fair, but I wanted to see what the ideal would put out. But as you can see, between equal comparison mods, it really isn't that big a deal to bypass the DR since it only floors the physical component, and in fact, the non-bypass ones actually outperform the ones fixated on bypassing DR.

I don't know what the hell all those numbers mean or what your trying to say but all i know if I use my metalline of PG with my holy burst and shocking burst ring, against my GEOB wraps. I do more damage when I bypass DR. And if your doing any difficulty higher than normal bypassing DR is always going to be important. If your doing normal difficulty sure, of course you can get by I suppose, but don't plan on doing anything higher than normal without DR bypassers.

But I can see what your saying with the true law/anarc + GEOB doing more than the Devouts on normal difficulty, but I have yet to see a pair of some law/anarc + GEOB wraps. And it seems a little unfair to put some rare wraps against the devouts to show higher numbers(even though devouts are semi-rare, you can always depend on that kind dropping whereas the law/anarc + GEOB is gonna be a total random drop). Bypassing DR is important at least in my opinion, and I think its wrong to give players the impression that its not important....

[Impatiens]

But I can see what your saying with the true law/anarc + GEOB doing more than the Devouts on normal difficulty, but I have yet to see a pair of some law/anarc + GEOB wraps. And it seems a little unfair to put some rare wraps against the devouts to show higher numbers(even though devouts are semi-rare, you can always depend on that kind dropping whereas the law/anarc + GEOB is gonna be a total random drop). Bypassing DR is important at least in my opinion, and I think its wrong to give players the impression that its not important....

Note that I said "with the right bane wraps" that bypassing DR was not a big deal. I've seen several pairs of anarchic of greater evil outsider bane wraps for sale on my server and have holy of greater lawful bane myself. Are they cheap? No, but they are not hard to get. It is true that bypassing DR is more important on higher difficulty levels, but most end game raids are run on normal since the perhaps slightly higher chance to drop loot on hard and elite usually isn't worth the extra effort, especially in a pug run. The point remains that it is not really worth going good just because metalline of pure good kamas are easier to find than metalline of pure good wraps in order to bypass the DR of a few raid bosses.

[Uska]

For me good is better and I dont think the Litany trinket is a good arguement for going neutral as most wont ever get a chance at that item, now other arguements for going neutral make more sense though but me I will always make my monks good and light side its just easier for me to play them that way others mileage may vary.

[Taimasan]

Note that I said "with the right bane wraps" that bypassing DR was not a big deal. I've seen several pairs of anarchic of greater evil outsider bane wraps for sale on my server and have holy of greater lawful bane myself. Are they cheap? No, but they are not hard to get. It is true that bypassing DR is more important on higher difficulty levels, but most end game raids are run on normal since the perhaps slightly higher chance to drop loot on hard and elite usually isn't worth the extra effort, especially in a pug run. The point remains that it is not really worth going good just because metalline of pure good kamas are easier to find than metalline of pure good wraps in order to bypass the DR of a few raid bosses.

I agree, and I will be on the lookout for a pair of anarchic of GEOB wraps.

[DrakmireTS]

Your basic conclusion was spot on: on normal only, the anarchic/holy of GEOB are going to outperform the Devouts. On anything higher than normal, the steep DR increase will sharply angle the divide in favor of being able to bypass the DR, leaving the GEOBs in the dust, with the obvious exception of Metalling of GEOB, which are a myth pretty much. The numbers I listed were average values for the various hits and penalties associated...I just figured it would be too messy to do an individual breakdown.

[oweieie]

Note that I said "with the right bane wraps" that bypassing DR was not a big deal. I've seen several pairs of anarchic of greater evil outsider bane wraps for sale on my server and have holy of greater lawful bane myself. Are they cheap? No, but they are not hard to get.

Considering in the time I've leveled my monk to 20 and crafted 4 ToD rings I have yet to even SEE an anarchic GEOB wrap anywhere, I'd say they're pretty ****ing hard to get. Anarchic is a rare mod as is GEOB, pulling either one is lucky, but getting both on the same wrap is when you break out the champagne. I have +5 metalline and +2 metalline bleed for high DR at least, but I'm always on the look out for better.

[Impatiens]

Considering in the time I've leveled my monk to 20 and crafted 4 ToD rings I have yet to even SEE an anarchic GEOB wrap anywhere, I'd say they're pretty ****ing hard to get. Anarchic is a rare mod as is GEOB, pulling either one is lucky, but getting both on the same wrap is when you break out the champagne. I have +5 metalline and +2 metalline bleed for high DR at least, but I'm always on the look out for better.

And I have yet to see +5 metalline in leveling two monks to 20. That clearly doesn't mean it is really hard to get though since you have some. Anything that is a random drop can be argued that it's hard to get. Anarchic of GEOB is not the only prefix that will outperform Devouts on normal, it was just an example. Holy works just as well, or better as a prefix, GLOB works just as well as a suffix if we are only concerned with pit fiend and horned Devil bosses in this conversation. Obviously Holy of GEOB is going to be the most versatile. Metalline of GEOB combined with a holy burst ring would, of course, be ideal, but those at least are truly rare being such a high ML combination. I've yet to hear of anyone pulling any.