That was rather Rude......

[Impaqt]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

[Mithran]

It's sufficient in most raids on Khyber to earn you a blacklisting from most members of the raid (and likely all veterans in the raid who are not in your Guild).

[Uska]

It's sufficient in most raids on Khyber to earn you a blacklisting from most members of the raid (and likely all veterans in the raid who are not in your Guild).

For both the buyer and and the seller once you put it up for a roll you should stick to it.

[Trillea]

For both the buyer and and the seller once you put it up for a roll you should stick to it.

Never fails - mention the name Khyber in a thread (even one put in another server's thread list) and Uska shows up..

Not that that's a bad thing, by any means..

[ArkoHighStar]

I think at that point it no longer becomes a question of who owns what etc. But more the fact that you made a commitment of sorts by putting it up for roll. I say shame on the person for not honoring the roll, and shame on the person who despite knowing someone else beat them then offered up plat. Yeah I would avoid both off them.

[Uska]

Never fails - mention the name Khyber in a thread (even one put in another server's thread list) and Uska shows up..

Not that that's a bad thing, by any means..

I do play on khyber and here on thelanis as well

[Morningfrost]

Thats just plain rude.

What did he say, "it's not personal, it's business"?

[Kaeldur]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

Frickin lame...

[Vint]

That is Bogus

[Trillea]

Out of pure curiosity what was up for roll?

[Impaqt]

Out of pure curiosity what was up for roll?

Tharnes Googles

[phalaeo]

Tharnes Googles

Not like it didn't suck before, but that's a total kick in the bal.....*end transmission*

[Impaqt]

Not like it didn't suck before, but that's a total kick in the bal.....*end transmission*

And the bigger kick.. He sold em for 100k plat.....

If yer gonna sell one of the best pieces of raid loot in the game after you already put it up for roll, why not make some real money off of it? I hope the 500 or so heal scrolls was worth it.

[Uska]

Tharnes Googles

Ouch!!!!! I pulled those on my monk recently and couple people groused when I took them and didnt put them up for a roll.

[Impaqt]

Ouch!!!!! I pulled those on my monk recently and couple people groused when I took them and didnt put them up for a roll.

Dunno why. +5 To hit and +8 damage whenever you dont have aggro is a solid perk for ANYONE that uses a weapon....

[Xyfiel]

Shortmanning, it isn't just for casual anymore!

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Dunno why. +5 To hit and +8 damage whenever you dont have aggro is a solid perk for ANYONE that uses a weapon....

Monks don't use wepons nowdays. :D

Seriously, the sooner people will get over the "Thranes are for rogues" viewpoint, the better...

[Impatiens]

Wow, that's really horrible. Once you put something up for roll you are kind of committed to give it to the person who wins the roll. And 100k plat? God I wish I could just pay 100k plat and get Tharne's goggles, that's nothing. I'm having no luck with them on my monk, hopefully I get them on my loot list for my 20th. I hope 100k plat was worth ruining his reputation with the people in the raid. It was really rude on both party's parts. Hope you get your Tharne's next time.

[Kaeldur]

I hope I don't run into said players...

[Uska]

Dunno why. +5 To hit and +8 damage whenever you dont have aggro is a solid perk for ANYONE that uses a weapon....

A couple of people saying it's a rogue item funny thing thing is I dont remember any rogues on the run.

[Atenhotep]

Sounds like the one who made the trade - after the roll was made - should earn a solid blacklisting UNLESS s/he is brand new and just didn't know it was a bad thing (perhaps they witnessed somebody do this and thought it was OK?) IMO the person who offered the plat was rude but not necessarily deserving of a blacklisting.

Now I'm done with "Devil's Advocate" ...

Having said that I'd never group with either of them myself. (I'm not big on the practice what I preach thing when it comes to blacklists. I use squelch and blacklists very liberally, just makes for a stress free game.)

[Delt]

Your loot is your loot.

It still applies to the end result, even if you don't like how it got there.

[Anderei]

Your loot is your loot.


My blacklist is my blacklist.

Seriously, there are some social norms, if you put up something for a roll, and then restrain from it for 100k its just meh.

Adjectives that come to my mind are (from nice to bad):
* opportunistic
* unreliable
* greedy
* dishonest

[Vint]

Troll, Troll, Troll

[blitzschlag]

Your loot is your loot.

It still applies to the end result, even if you don't like how it got there.

while i agree to this the guy could have said its up for cash rather than letting ppl roll and selling it cheap to a stranger (it has to be a stranger because noone bills friends or guildies).

[Spisey]

I'd say that's a pretty low-handed deal right thar. Basically that's trumping someone's roll because they lost. In my eyes anyway. Raids take resources, time and cooperation from all involved. If a roll is called, that remains no matter. They should have settled that as he was thinking about it, not as an after-thought a losing die roll... :confused:

[Spisey]

BAH! Lag has finally follwed me to the forums too! >:(

[Juleulven]

selfisness is a serious disruption on the game... and imo people act out because of either one of:
either they are selfish/greedy wich in my book makes me not wanna group with them or
they are ignorant/new and they should be told in a calm and respectfull manner how things are done

i have begun to use "Friends list" alot more now.... adding nearly all i play with ...
the very good are added with a note of good player deffo a priority
bad are added with "fubar"

nice and simple... but being added just dosent mean i wong group ... i just know how to handle and address them ... and if they do "strange stuff" again they get blacklisted for real...

we ALL deserve a 2nd chance imo ...

[synkos]

Just thought I'd weigh in, still being new to the whole raid loot idea.

First of all, I'll mention that I completely and wholeheartedly agree with OP and most of you here on the matter. If you said it's up for a roll then it's up for a roll, the first roll that shows up means no changing your mind anymore. It's very simple in my mind.

I will, however, semi-relatedly note that the situations with raid loot can get tricky. I've read more than one thread on the forums where people were being called out because of what they did with the loot that showed up in _their_ chest. I myself come from a NWN PW where one person would bank the entire run and then all would roll a d100 and pick in the order they rolled, 1 item per turn. I have no problem with understanding the concept and since everyone contributes pretty much the same in the run (exceptions exist ofcourse) everyone should have a chance at something they can actually _use_. I would without a thought pass a +3 int tome to a wizard, or let the wizzies roll if we have more than one, but what people actually expect in which situation is a bit blurry here.

Even some of you here say "your loot is your loot", and I agree to an extent (let's not forget that one roll was already done for that loot, the one that actually PUT that item in your chest) altho my environment shaped me to be a person that strongly believes in a "need before greed" kind of system (never played wow btw), which most of people here support.

Do keep in mind tho that not all are created equal and as the lines are blurry as it is some people might do the wrong thing inadvertedly.

If I had to judge, I would say the "seller's" action is just bad manners (altho selling such an item for 100k is, in my opinion, also a sign of being new to the game), but the "buyer" could very well be a newbie who doesn't see the line that divides. Real life examples say that money offered usually gives you advantages, so some people may need schooling in that department.

And yes, everyone should be given a second chance. I would keep an eye on "seller's" actions in future and maybe even avoid him if possible, but I think the buyer himself deserves a second chance, and a /tell lesson in local social rules.

TL;DR: The seller is shady, but the buyer needs some clue and deserves another chance.

[Krag]

Selling raid loot is bad enough to earn a place in my black list.
Selling raid loot after the roll was made is hundred times worse.

[Xithos]

It sucks that the guy said he was putting it up for roll and then renegged on the decision; when I tell people I am putting something up for roll that is the end of the story. However, "Your loot is your loot" and I am pretty quick to throw out a bribe if a pugger pulls something I don't want to wait until 20 for. As far as the buyer is concerned, 100k plat for those goggles is quite the bargain IMO.

[AbsynthMinded]

He who owns the loot, makes the rules. If they decided to start an auction on the spot, then let the bids come. Saying one thing and doing another is human nature. Ethics and honor is something invented by liars and cheats to better lie and cheat people.

On the other hand in a non virtual world people have been killed for far less.

[Dandonk]

Personally I don't buy/sell raid loot, but that's my choice. If other people do, that's up to them - and I won't hold it against them. Their choice.

Putting something up for roll, then going against that and selling it after... that I do find in bad taste. Once you've made a decision, whether to take it, roll it away, sell it or give to a friend, stick with it. Changing your decision will only make people mad, and rightly so - IMO, of course.

[Bacab]

Ok agree with Impaqt...once the roll is called...it should be rolled for.

I do agree with your loot is your loot...but their are consequences for actions.

That being said, is it socially acceptable to "trade" raid loot?

For Example: a SOR pulls a Chaosblade and a FTR pulls a Greenblade. Can one say to the other: "I'll trade ya my Chaosblade for that Greenblade"?

Or is that looked down upon?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Your loot is your loot.

It still applies to the end result, even if you don't like how it got there.

I always argue that your loot is your loot, but...

At the point they said "its up for a roll" and people start rolling there is an agreement in place, an offer and an acceptance... at that point, as the OP put it, it is rude at the very least to do something else with it.


Saying one thing and doing another is human nature. Ethics and honor is something invented by liars and cheats to better lie and cheat people.

That's sad if you really feel that way. If ethics and honor mean nothing to someone I wouldn't want to know them in either this game or the real world.

[Anderei]

Ethics and honor is something invented by liars and cheats to better lie and cheat people.

Bzzz. Wrong, Ethics and honor are social inventions to make society work better. Imagine two rural villages, one in which ethics and honor are followed by the majority the others were everybody is as selfish as possible. Which village you think will run better? Which one is more likely to survive a natural disaster by helping each other out? Which village has a larger population by not killing each other? etc.

Now just scale this up to modern society.

When you speak about "human nature", think twice about it beyond prejudices. Human nature is to be cooperative, humans are "gregarious animals". Compare humans with any other species out there, lets be honest, comparing bodies, on most levels we just suck, humans are neither strong, nor fast, nor durable. BUT humans are smart, adaptable and very cooperative, that is what humans nature is.

[biggin]

I side with the OP on this one. Once it's up for roll you need to stand by that decision. I don't see it as any different than a person who wins a roll passing the item to a friend who lost. I've been guilty a few times of running a raid with one or two guildies and just out of habit saying, "OK, (x item) up for roll." I felt bad about not asking my guildies first, but I feel I need to stand by my word. I know this is the internet, and many people feel no obligation to anyone. But what new players will soon come to understand (I hope) is that you will be running these raids with the same people for years to come. It's going to get to a point where you can't join any high level raid without knowing 50% or more of the party, even in straight PUGs. And if I know how you operate (as in the OP), before we step in the raid I'm going to be copying/pasting messages to all the people I know, then let everyone know over VC about your raid loot practice. Guess what happens if something falls that you need? Hope you consolidated all your plat onto one character, because first thing I'm going to say is. "(x item) is for roll unless the roaming AH wants to give me 5 mil plat for it."

[LA_MIKE]

BUT humans are smart, adaptable and very cooperative, that is what humans nature is.

That's what the +1 skill point/level is for. ;)

[Rusty_Can]

Seriously, the sooner people will get over the "Thranes are for rogues" viewpoint, the better...

/Off topic

Sure; as soon as the average barbarian will stop whining because <insert melee build here> decided to loot Madstone Boots or ToD barbarian PrE rings ..... *grins*

People should behave consistently: barbarians cannot happily loot Tharne's Googles ("Dude, they are melee items!") and then whine because rogues decided to loot Frenzied Berserker rings ("Dude, what are you doing? Those are clearly barbarian-only items!!!!" ..... ^^

/On topic



That being said, is it socially acceptable to "trade" raid loot?

For Example: a SOR pulls a Chaosblade and a FTR pulls a Greenblade. Can one say to the other: "I'll trade ya my Chaosblade for that Greenblade"?

Or is that looked down upon?

As long as it happens BEFORE making any other commitment (e.g putting it up for roll), I would consider it fine.

I've been playing for long on Keeper (European server), where selling/auctioning raid loot was not very common (tbh, I've never witnessed it); even passing items to guild members was often considered not very polite. Here I often receive /tells offering money for items I put up for roll.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I've been playing for long on Keeper (European server), where selling/auctioning raid loot was not very common (tbh, I've never witnessed it); even passing items to guild members was often considered not very polite. Here I often receive /tells offering money for items I put up for roll.

I've seen people trade raid items (and never heard anyone complain about it).

I've never seen an attempt to buy a raid item since the current raid loot system went into effect. Under the old system...it got nasty.

[Judo]

Recently I pulled a decent shard out of an epic raid, and as i only had 1 toon on the account i was playing on (with no intention of ever having another (ftp)) i put it up for roll, then realized i could have traded it for the other awesome shard that was up for roll...you know what i did?

i gave it away, because i had already called the roll, and people had rolled

se' la vie

[jstroud]

I had a similar situation happen on Argo not too long ago. I was on my Cleric and I ended up with a Bloodstone out in the sands. Since my melee has one I decided to put it up for roll, and then the Barb in the group (who rolls first) offers me 200k plat for it on the spot after he rolls low (roughly 1/4 of the AH value on Argo - he rolled a 1 on a 1d100, how priceless is that!). So I gave no response until the rolls were completed, passed the item to the Ranger that won, and politely informed the Barb that he's going to have to discuss the matter with the Ranger.

I'm assuming that, from the OP's comments that the character in question was a Cleric or FvS. If that's the case, you couldn't even make the role-play argument that taking the plat was "what my character would have done in that situation."

I think we mostly agree that what occured was a dispicable and petty display of rudeness and greed.

[Seelowe]

That being said, is it socially acceptable to "trade" raid loot?
For Example: a SOR pulls a Chaosblade and a FTR pulls a Greenblade. Can one say to the other: "I'll trade ya my Chaosblade for that Greenblade"?
Or is that looked down upon?

in the spirit of "your loot is your loot" that doesn't seem "wrong" or "socially unacceptable" or anything. if a mutually beneficial trade can be made within the chest so 2 ppl that got raid loot, that they can't use end up with raid loot that they can use... nothing seems wrong there.

I've actually seen that as being common practise especially in the mindsunder (not really a raid but many items in there are just as desired as regular raid loot).

now, my personal opinion about what to do with raid loot, if not desired is I always put it up for roll. I view auctioning it off on the spot for plat as low. this coming from a relatively new player btw, so I don't have gazillions of plat laying around like others do that played for years, so I really could use the plat but it just seems wrong to me.

passing items to friends and guild mates first is something I can absolutely understand but it has to be done with a certain ammount of tact. if 4 named items drop and 3 I would have wanted a roll at get internally shifted around between "friends" I sure as hell don't want them rolling on the 4th item I would put up for roll if you know what I mean.

[Riorik]

For both the buyer and and the seller once you put it up for a roll you should stick to it.

This should be your rule, always.

Given the sequence of events as listed, it just shouldn't have happened. It's possible that an offer was made privately before the roll...however, once that roll was made by that player (who bought it), and lost, that's done.

I agree, both equally responsible and unclassy.

[Buggss]

It also needs to be mentioned that I've seen rolls appear in the party chat and upon scrolling back there was never any mention of the loot being up for roll at all. The rollers than moan and gripe because the loot roll results weren't "honoured". There are so many viewpoints and situations possible with this situation it has to run on the principle of a commanding officer in the field: They did what they felt was right at the time and everyone else has to make up their own minds later but consider the conditions at the time.

Also remember hearsay is ignored by the law in RL; only base decisions about a particular person/decision on your own experiences.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

/Off topic

Sure; as soon as the average barbarian will stop whining because <insert melee build here> decided to loot Madstone Boots or ToD barbarian PrE rings ..... *grins*

People should behave consistently: barbarians cannot happily loot Tharne's Googles ("Dude, they are melee items!") and then whine because rogues decided to loot Frenzied Berserker rings ("Dude, what are you doing? Those are clearly barbarian-only items!!!!" ..... ^^


I don't remeber saying that rogues shouldn't loot FB rings (I might argue that for most rogue builds it's probably sub optimal, but it's your build, feel free to gimp it)...

In general, I'm a fan of knowing your build, knowing what it can use, and knowing what will better be used by other people (what would you say about a ranger looting a sword of shadows?).

[calvinklien]

We know not to play poker with that fella....

[ace_mason]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

How much was offered? If it was 10kpp shame on him. If it was 10million plat, can you blame the guy? Most people are only nice enough to put things up for roll when it has no benefit to them. When he was offered a lage sum of money the mind set changes. The item suddenly has value again and it is much harder to make the decision. I agree that once it is up for roll it should go to the highest roller. But if someone had the oppurtunity to make a large amount of money. I would have a hard time taking there raid loot for free.

[Anderei]

Also remember hearsay is ignored by the law in RL; only base decisions about a particular person/decision on your own experiences.

I don't see any relevant decisions being made as long no names are involved, when OP said "Person X did that" it would be a different matter.

Also remember the law of treaties, "pacta sunt servanda" as we learn it in europe derived from roman law. As soon two persons agree on their volitions a treaty is made - even oral or by act. Person A says "up for roll", Person B rolls, you have matching volitions. If either side is missing, it is of course a different story.

[Anderei]

How much was offered? If it was 10kpp shame on him. If it was 10million plat, can you blame the guy? Most people are only nice enough to put things up for roll when it has no benefit to them. When he was offered a lage sum of money the mind set changes. The item suddenly has value again and it is much harder to make the decision. I agree that once it is up for roll it should go to the highest roller. But if someone had the oppurtunity to make a large amount of money. I would have a hard time taking there raid loot for free.

He posted it, it was 100kpp. But even if it was 999999999999kpp, there is no price on honesty, all the ingamemoney put together doesn't compare to a lost friend. Once you put it up for a roll you did that. If you want to test if anyone is paying for it, do it beforehand.

[Krag]

Ok agree with Impaqt...once the roll is called...it should be rolled for.

I do agree with your loot is your loot...but their are consequences for actions.

That being said, is it socially acceptable to "trade" raid loot?

For Example: a SOR pulls a Chaosblade and a FTR pulls a Greenblade. Can one say to the other: "I'll trade ya my Chaosblade for that Greenblade"?

Or is that looked down upon?

This is a very dodgy question.
First of all, do you pay plat to roll on the loot? I've never seen a player paying for that.
That means you want to have other peoples stuff for free and yet charge money for your own pulls. Party members should feel cheated when you demand money (or gear) for the piece of loot you can't use.


The only exeption I can think of at the moment would be trading loot you CAN use for another loot you can use.

[ace_mason]

Recently I pulled a decent shard out of an epic raid, and as i only had 1 toon on the account i was playing on (with no intention of ever having another (ftp)) i put it up for roll, then realized i could have traded it for the other awesome shard that was up for roll...you know what i did?

i gave it away, because i had already called the roll, and people had rolled

se' la vie

You sir are a gentlemen and a scholar. Kindness should be rewarded with more than a pat on the back. If I won the roll. I would have traded it for the super uber shard and passed it to you in the chest. Also I think people should buy there raid loot. There are very few item in the game now that are exciting to pull and can net you a hefty profit. Save your pennies up and if someone pulls the item you want shower them with plat.

[Therilith]

I'm assuming that, from the OP's comments that the character in question was a Cleric or FvS. If that's the case, you couldn't even make the role-play argument that taking the plat was "what my character would have done in that situation."

Yes. Yes you could.

[begbie]

The rules:

1. Never rip off someone.
2. Be cool, you might want it, but if it betters a friend, give it... you'll get payback later.
3. It's a game.. it will drop for you l8r (your 20th run)... when someone else don't need it.

Remember..Meritocracy... only in the video game world does this concept exist.

Basically, it means... a person who works hard, acts well and shows the best qualities... will get the best results, the most respect and get the best invites.... if you don't merit respect.. you won't get it... but if you do... well your name could be Bunk. Renegade, Womp, Band, Clay, Ministry, Malvian, Scarsgaard, Gorloch, Ira, Impaqt, Beefies etc etc etc (too many folkes to name.. i sprained me finger) :)

ttyl folkes

[ace_mason]

He posted it, it was 100kpp. But even if it was 999999999999kpp, there is no price on honesty, all the ingamemoney put together doesn't compare to a lost friend. Once you put it up for a roll you did that. If you want to test if anyone is paying for it, do it beforehand.

Well now you are assuming they are friends. Maybe the guy didnt like the winner of the roll in the first place. Maybe he needed 100kpp for a surgey for his kids. Maybe he wanted to buy a disease immunity ring so he could sleep with judos mom. We dont know what the circumstance was. If someone needs 100kpp that badly then we should be happy for him getting it.

[Zombiekenny]

In my opinion, trying to get anything for raid loot is pretty low.
I can see trading raid loot, but trying to sell it, no matter when, is, in my opinion, not good play.
Everyone else in the party went through resources and time to get to that end chest, if you don't get what you want and get something else, then put it up for roll. Everyone else is doing it, its common courtesy, and accepted practice. If it wasn't the common accepted thing to do then it wouldn't be a big deal, but when most of the server does it it is easy to add you to the blacklist and run with the 99% of people that play by the same loot courtesy rules. At worst you have an extra two minutes to wait for the party to fill with someone else next run.

[Braegan]

That's just lame, on both the one that offered it for roll and changed their mind after and on the one who would throw plat as a last ditch effort after losing a roll.

[Nonan]

If you put something up for roll.. you need to stay with that decision. Selling the Tharnes after you offered them up is BS. Offering to buy them after you didnt win the roll is just plain greed.....

But.. to some players 100k pp is a lot of money. Especially if it is your first high level toon and if it is a healer to boot. Although I dont agree about selling raid loot, you win the loot, its your decision.

[JOTMON]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

Definitely some bad etiquette, that would be 2 people that I would have to add to my special friends list.
1. The guy who had a crappy roll so decided to use plat to bribe a win.
2.The guy who announced he was putting it up for roll and then deciding after the rolls to sell to someone else.

In my opinion if you announce it as being up for roll and enough time goes by for a couple of rolls happen then you should commit to completing the roll off.

[ace_mason]

If you put something up for roll.. you need to stay with that decision. Selling the Tharnes after you offered them up is BS. Offering to buy them after you didnt win the roll is just plain greed.....

But.. to some players 100k pp is a lot of money. Especially if it is your first high level toon and if it is a healer to boot. Although I dont agree about selling raid loot, you win the loot, its your decision.

Have to agree with you on this one. If you pull the loot it is your to do with what you want. If you want to dangle it like a carrot you can. If you want to try to make a small fortune so you an buy enough beer and chicken to wash away your sorrows, then again by all means do so. In his defense it was his to do with what he wanted. And now he is infamous. He is like Monica Lewinsky now. He will never be forgotten.

[Rusty_Can]

I've never seen an attempt to buy a raid item since the current raid loot system went into effect.

Last time happened to me with a Vorpal Dream Edge; not raid loot, but still BTA/BTC stuff. I was offered money, but I put it up for roll. Btw, at least in my experience, similar attempts are often performed via /tells.

I've seen people trying to sell their raid loot: some time ago, a pure fighter pulled Bard's Cloak in VoD; said item is pretty much useless on any build but bards; there was only one bard in the party, but the fighter asked 70K platinum coins for it .... I guess (and hope) a big share of the party /squelched him ......

Btw, just for the record, yesterday my melee-built bard Hallelujah joined a VoD pug and pulled Tharne's Googles: I don't have them, but I deemed I didn't really need them; I must confess that, for a few seconds, I was tempted to pass them to the only rogue in the party and **** off all other melee characters *grins*, but I guess I was feeling too nice and so I just put them up for roll ^^ ..........

/Off topic


I don't remeber saying that rogues shouldn't loot FB rings

You didn't. Just saying that there are many wrong assumptions out there.


I might argue that for most rogue builds it's probably sub optimal, but it's your build, feel free to gimp it...


Please, tell how STR-based rogues are gimped by fighter/barbarian ToD sets. I do find stuff designed for rogues (i.e all those DEX rings) rather suboptimal. If you are referring to Dex-based monk-splashed finesse halfling builds, I don't play any.



what would you say about a ranger looting a sword of shadows?

TR aside (yes, you need to take also this option into account), since Tempest PrE is based on TWF, rangers looting SoS would be pointless. Furthermore, we all know rangers have no business with melee combat: their job is staying behind the party, engaging stuff at maximum possible range with their bows and kiting it around.... *grins*

[Mentor61]

. Maybe he wanted to buy a disease immunity ring so he could sleep with judos mom. We dont know what the circumstance was.


Ahaha!Band,you're priceless!

[JayDubya]

It was very lame.

Having said that, once the mode "shifted" to bidding, you should have just outbid him - I know that 100k plat isn't that much for me, so I can only imagine how much you have sloshing around

I mean, the bidder was essentially rewarded for being a D-Bag.

[gott_ist_tot]

Ouch!!!!! I pulled those on my monk recently and couple people groused when I took them and didnt put them up for a roll.

If I see a halfling monk I automatically assume he's a backstabbing build. Non-halflings can be suspected
to be so also.

As the OP goes... what happened there was... hm. Not nice at all, and personally I would blacklist both
persons involved. If I won the roll I'd probably ragequit, but that's my weak nerves.

And what I really have to say about this would probably get me banned for profanity.

[Mr_Ed7]

I had a similar situation happen on Argo not too long ago. I was on my Cleric and I ended up with a Bloodstone out in the sands. Since my melee has one I decided to put it up for roll, and then the Barb in the group (who rolls first) offers me 200k plat for it on the spot after he rolls low (roughly 1/4 of the AH value on Argo - he rolled a 1 on a 1d100, how priceless is that!). So I gave no response until the rolls were completed, passed the item to the Ranger that won, and politely informed the Barb that he's going to have to discuss the matter with the Ranger.

I'm assuming that, from the OP's comments that the character in question was a Cleric or FvS. If that's the case, you couldn't even make the role-play argument that taking the plat was "what my character would have done in that situation."

I think we mostly agree that what occured was a dispicable and petty display of rudeness and greed.

I do beleive that how jstroud handled his situtation showed higher class.

However, there is no contractual agreement that the OP's nemesis must fullfill.
Ultimatly, the OP is not happy because he did not get his way.

Perhaps there has to be a chest option entitled "PUT ITEM UP for ROLL".

Additionally, "blacklisting" is rarely needed in this game, and to supposedly blacklist any of the parties involved with the OP would be childish.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Ah what the heck.
/full dereail on :D



Please, tell how STR-based rogues are gimped by fighter/barbarian ToD sets. I do find stuff designed for rogues (i.e all those DEX rings) rather suboptimal. If you are referring to Dex-based monk-splashed finesse halfling builds, I don't play any.


Strength based rogues are not the norm, dex based ones are.
And the (i.e.) assasin set for an assasin III rogue is prety **** nice.



TR aside (yes, you need to take also this option into account)


TR'ing a twf build into a thf build is rather pointless...



Furthermore, we all know rangers have no business with melee combat: their job is staying behind the party, engaging stuff at maximum possible range with their bows and kiting it around.... *grins*


Only if they remebered to prepare some "bush" to "slow" the mobs they are kiting. :D

[Bunker]

The whole concept behind a die roll is to give every roller an equal chance.

For all of you that say, it is fair for the winner of the roll to pass it to the loser of the roll might agree with it, till it prevents you from winning it.

I'm all for your loot is your loot, but a simple act of fair play also carries value in this game.

If you and 1 other player in a group of 12 roll on an item, and you win, but 5 other players roll at a chance for you to loose, and pass it to the original loser of the roll, by all mean, keep lying to yourself when you say that is fair.

[SquelchHU]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

Signed. If you put it up for roll, the decision is made. If you trade it, the decision is made. If you put it up for roll and then trade it, don't be surprised if you make a minimum of 11 blacklists.

[weyoun]

Yeah it was rude, but I have to admire the guy who got the loot. He saw his opportunity and took it. The guy who put it up for roll and then agreed to sell it is a tool, but its still his to do whatever he wants to. People are too lazy to keep strict do not group with lists and there are so many alts that it really isn't practical.

There is a fine line. I've been in negotiations with someone when the item is NOT up for roll and people are rolling on it. What the frack is that about? Or infamously, rolling against a guildy for something and every stinking pugger thinks he has the right to roll for it too. I mean, is your point here just to give yourself an opportunity to PM folks the guys name? Do you really need to do that at this point?

[Mentor61]

Yeah it was rude, but I have to admire the guy who got the loot. He saw his opportunity and took it. The guy who put it up for roll and then agreed to sell it is a tool, but its still his to do whatever he wants to. People are too lazy to keep strict do not group with lists and there are so many alts that it really isn't practical.

There is a fine line. I've been in negotiations with someone when the item is NOT up for roll and people are rolling on it. What the frack is that about? Or infamously, rolling against a guildy for something and every stinking pugger thinks he has the right to roll for it too. I mean, is your point here just to give yourself an opportunity to PM folks the guys name? Do you really need to do that at this point?

Dear Pileon Master,

I am contemplating a move to Orien.Do you still play there?This is my 3rd account,you don't know who i am :D .CAPSLOCK FTW!

[weyoun]

yeah i still play there and thelanis

[Mentor61]

yeah i still play there and thelanis


orien,here I come!

Will send mail to beanskin when i land :)

[Krag]

There is a fine line. I've been in negotiations with someone when the item is NOT up for roll and people are rolling on it. What the frack is that about? Or infamously, rolling against a guildy for something and every stinking pugger thinks he has the right to roll for it too. I mean, is your point here just to give yourself an opportunity to PM folks the guys name? Do you really need to do that at this point?

I hate that attitude.
If you don't need a puggers in your guildrun, go ahead and shortman the raid. Inviting a pugger and discriminate him after the raid is completed is a bad taste.

[AkromaAoW]

I agree with the OP. It was rude. Delt stated that your loot is your loot, and I agree. However, your word is also your word, and if you say you're going to do something, then do it. If you want to pocket your raid loot, fine. If you want to sell your raid loot, also fine, but I wouldn't buy it, and I'd remember that you wanted to sell it. Make a statement and stick to it, unless you have a change of heart that leads to betterment for your teammates.

Actually, in this scenario, I have more problems with the player that offered coin for the item to change the outcome of the roll. That action has no tact. Take your wins with humility and your losses with dignity.

Eveyone has their own values and priorities, but I just don't have the desire anymore to waste time with players that are far more interested in their own gains and desires than helping their teammates.

E.

[Mentor61]

I agree with the OP. It was rude. Delt stated that your loot is your loot, and I agree. However, your word is also your word, and if you say you're going to do something, then do it. If you want to pocket your raid loot, fine. If you want to sell your raid loot, also fine, but I wouldn't buy it, and I'd remember that you wanted to sell it. Make a statement and stick to it, unless you have a change of heart that leads to betterment for your teammates.

Actually, in this scenario, I have more problems with the player that offered coin for the item to change the outcome of the roll. That action has no tact. Take your wins with humility and your losses with dignity.

Eveyone has their own values and priorities, but I just don't have the desire anymore to waste time with players that are far more interested in their own gains and desires than helping their teammates.

E.

Ok,that was a fun topic while it lasted,let's talk about Eriik's weapons now.Or his accomplishments :D I kid...I kid...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I hate that attitude.
If you don't need a puggers in your guildrun, go ahead and shortman the raid. Inviting a pugger and discriminate him after the raid is completed is a bad taste.

The puggers usually know what the said guilds raid loot policy is, and most people prefer their on guildies to puggers anyway.

On a side note, for some reason there is no shortage of people who feel that for being caried to a smooth raid completion, no "rolling on loot priviliges" is a fair price to pay.

[Bunker]

The puggers usually know what the said guilds raid loot policy is, and most people prefer their on guildies to puggers anyway.

On a side note, for some reason there is no shortage of people who feel that for being caried to a smooth raid completion, no "rolling on loot priviliges" is a fair price to pay.

Not all people that are in those raids are carried. :rolleyes: In fact, some of those ppl need help being carried sometimes. :D

[Krag]

The puggers usually know what the said guilds raid loot policy is, and most people prefer their on guildies to puggers anyway.

On a side note, for some reason there is no shortage of people who feel that for being caried to a smooth raid completion, no "rolling on loot priviliges" is a fair price to pay.

And this makes me sad panda :(
People who join groups on such terms must have no dignity at all. As much as I appreciate smooth runs over average pugging experience, willingly entering a lower-than-a-man role is pathetic.

[Cyr]

Last time someone offered me plat for a raid item I pulled I copy pasted it into chat and said in voice okay item up for roll, but this person I will not give it to. If anyone, but this noob has an objection I'm looting it myself for when I pull the epic shard and want a second set for leveling this TR.

[tomatt72]

That's just as bad as these greedy idiots that put up a lfm saying that if you loot something they want you have to give it to them. I did a bobble loot run in weapons shipment the other day and got it, as soon as i opened the chest the group leader started yelling that I had better give it to him since he was the one who put the group together, so I took it out of the chest, told him what he can go do with his mother and then recalled out and sold it to junk dealer. (since I am a fighter and have no MP) The whole time i was explaining to him what I was doing and how much i got for it from the junk dealer just to rub it in then I dropped group and sat back and smiled.

[Seelowe]

what I don't quite understand here is why most ppl are upset about the guy that sold the item.

allow me to explain:
from what I understand someone rolled on the item after it was put up for roll, lost the roll to the OP, then had the incredible nerve to announce over voice chat, that AFTER losing the roll he now wants to pay for the item in an attempt to "cheat" the winner of the roll out of said item.
in my book, that is at least as messed up as the guy putting it up for roll, then deciding that 100k plat is worth the aftermath on the forums.
if I was in the run I would have blacklisted both of them on the spot.


p.s. concerning being "carried through raids as a stinky pugger", I imagine that you type /death when the raid starts, someone picks up your stone, you get a rez at the end chest and function as an additional body to pull raid items in return for a counter on your ticker for 20, 40, 60 etc raid completions right......?
also, if I pull say the littany in the abbot as a pugger I don't need to put it up for a roll if I can't use it, since I don't get the "privillege" to roll on anything either, correct....?

[Bunker]

That's just as bad as these greedy idiots that put up a lfm saying that if you loot something they want you have to give it to them. I did a bobble loot run in weapons shipment the other day and got it, as soon as i opened the chest the group leader started yelling that I had better give it to him since he was the one who put the group together, so I took it out of the chest, told him what he can go do with his mother and then recalled out and sold it to junk dealer. (since I am a fighter and have no MP) The whole time i was explaining to him what I was doing and how much i got for it from the junk dealer just to rub it in then I dropped group and sat back and smiled.

I'm not supporting whatever the leader of your group said to you, but if you were a fighter and you pulled a bound to character item that only helps a character with SP, then do us all a favor and add your characters to your forum post. That is not only lame, but quite sad. I would gather that you fall under the catagory of players that want to play solo because doing something like that sure doesn't scream, "group with me!"

[Rusty_Can]

Ah what the heck.
/full dereail on :D


Oh yea ^^ let's derail .....



TR'ing a twf build into a thf build is rather pointless...


Let's say your target is a "completionist" 2HF melee (barbarian, paladin, fighter, arcane knight, whatever ^^); you would need to get through a crappy ranger life .... but aye, as i said, 99% of the times rangers would have no business with SoS.



Only if they remebered to prepare some "bush" to "slow" the mobs they are kiting. :D

Uhm.. point taken... now I understand why I'm so ineffective when I kite stuff *sighs*

[AMDarkwolf]

ya know this is bad, but its STILL not as bad as another run we did.

12 people in the group, 7 or 8 of them were RL friends or something(nobody knew this fact.lol)

We got to end, the glacial bracers and gloves both drop(I got the gloves, someone else got bracers)

well 2 people who I KNOW could have used both items rolled(and rolled high, each would have won the respective item, and each wanted only 1 of the 2) but then the other 8 people all rolled.... of course one of the 8 won each item, then they transfer the item to another guy among their group who did not win the roll(he actually got the lowest roll on both items)

So it COULD have been worse...lol

[Aspenor]

Once a roll is called for, the winner should get the item. The person that assigned the loot for a paltry sum of money deserves any blacklist they find. The guy that offered the money after losing followed bad form and was a sore loser.

I felt a little bad, yesterday, when I finally got my bauble on my sorc (or maybe it was 2 days ago...can't remember). Anyway, I pulled the Arrowhead and a ranger pulled the Bauble. We both said rolls for loot. I found out after the roll for the Arrowhead that the ranger wanted it. He lost the roll. I ended up winning the roll on the Bauble. I assigned my loot to the winner, and he assigned the Bauble to me. In hindsight, I could have offered it in a straight-up trade (and probably would have had I known he wanted the arrow) but once the roll is called for, the roll should be stood by.

[weyoun]

orien,here I come!

Will send mail to beanskin when i land :)

Deal!

[biggin]

p.s. concerning being "carried through raids as a stinky pugger", I imagine that you type /death when the raid starts, someone picks up your stone, you get a rez at the end chest and function as an additional body to pull raid items in return for a counter on your ticker for 20, 40, 60 etc raid completions right......?
also, if I pull say the littany in the abbot as a pugger I don't need to put it up for a roll if I can't use it, since I don't get the "privillege" to roll on anything either, correct....?

Depends on how you look at it I guess. On Thelanis there are basically 4 or 5 guilds that run this, either as guild runs, mixes between those guilds, friends of those guilds that guys have known for years, and then maybe 2-4 PUG members. I'm not in any of those guilds or "friends" with them (in other words they don't ask me to join), so whenever I run those it's simply pretty much as a warm body. Do I contribute? Of course. I can do all 3 puzzles, but mainly when these groups form they already have their "puzzlers" predetermined so all they need me to do is mass heal/break encasement. First few runs it ****** me off when things fell and I wasn't able to roll on them. But, the plain and simple fact is that Abbott is pretty much unPUGable (not like Hound/VOD, where you can easily talk people through it at least). If it wasn't for those guilds that took the time to figure it out, practice the puzzles, etc, I wouldn't get to run it at all. So, I go in, do the best job I can, and wait until my 20/40/whatever to get what I need if it doesn't fall for me. Strictly fair? Nope, but it's just part of the DDO culture that sometimes you have to deal with.

Sorry for the slight derailment.

[ddaedelus]

He who owns the loot, makes the rules. If they decided to start an auction on the spot, then let the bids come. Saying one thing and doing another is human nature. Ethics and honor is something invented by liars and cheats to better lie and cheat people.

On the other hand in a non virtual world people have been killed for far less.
Every day I find another reason to continue soloing. :rolleyes:

[weyoun]

I'm not supporting whatever the leader of your group said to you, but if you were a fighter and you pulled a bound to character item that only helps a character with SP, then do us all a favor and add your characters to your forum post. That is not only lame, but quite sad. I would gather that you fall under the catagory of players that want to play solo because doing something like that sure doesn't scream, "group with me!"

Bunk I think you need some coffee cause you're a grumpy bear this morning. I would join that group just for the opportunity to not give the leader the bauble. It screams "grief me" and I would have to oblige.

[maddmatt70]

Depends on how you look at it I guess. On Thelanis there are basically 4 or 5 guilds that run this, either as guild runs, mixes between those guilds, friends of those guilds that guys have known for years, and then maybe 2-4 PUG members. I'm not in any of those guilds or "friends" with them (in other words they don't ask me to join), so whenever I run those it's simply pretty much as a warm body. Do I contribute? Of course. I can do all 3 puzzles, but mainly when these groups form they already have their "puzzlers" predetermined so all they need me to do is mass heal/break encasement. First few runs it ****** me off when things fell and I wasn't able to roll on them. But, the plain and simple fact is that Abbott is pretty much unPUGable (not like Hound/VOD, where you can easily talk people through it at least). If it wasn't for those guilds that took the time to figure it out, practice the puzzles, etc, I wouldn't get to run it at all. So, I go in, do the best job I can, and wait until my 20/40/whatever to get what I need if it doesn't fall for me. Strictly fair? Nope, but it's just part of the DDO culture that sometimes you have to deal with.

Sorry for the slight derailment.

This is a feature of Thelanis. It really takes just a little organization to beat the abbot. It is similiar in some ways on Khyber, but there is a much friendlier atmosphere toward pugs. Get off the pot and do something about it find players/guilds and work together there is no reason why just 4 guilds can get the job done. The abbot is one of those quests that is less about character skill and more about player mario skills so you do not need even good gear or well built characters to beat it.

[Bunker]

Bunk I think you need some coffee cause you're a grumpy bear this morning. I would join that group just for the opportunity to not give the leader the bauble. It screams "grief me" and I would have to oblige.

Hey bro, like I said, I'm not supporting the leader. I see those Lfms all the time, saying "join only if you want to give me <insert item here>". I almost neer join them, unless it is someone I know, and would be happy to help em out. But the fighter doing what he did, sure it might seem kind of funny, and cool, cause he pulled that simply for spite, and laughs. But hey, let me know who you are, so that fighter can stay out of my groups. I personally don't care for those types tainting my good times while playing a game.

[tomatt72]

Bunk I think you need some coffee cause you're a grumpy bear this morning. I would join that group just for the opportunity to not give the leader the bauble. It screams "grief me" and I would have to oblige.

and that is the exact reason I did what I did, If he wants a guarantee that if it drops he gets it then run with his guild or friends

[Bunker]

This is a feature of Thelanis. It really takes just a little organization to beat the abbot. It is similiar in some ways on Khyber, but there is a much friendlier atmosphere toward pugs. Get off the pot and do something about it find players/guilds and work together there is no reason why just 4 guilds can get the job done. The abbot is one of those quests that is less about character skill and more about player mario skills so you do not need even good gear or well built characters to beat it.

I have to agree. I do agree with Bigg, that it is nice to have some peeps that know how to do puzzles, but I will take almost anyone if I'm leading an Abbot. And some on Thelanis will agree. The sooner more players go into the Abbot, the sooner we will have the bulk of Thelanis knowing how to beat the Abbot, the sooner filling the Abbot groups don't take all week, the sooner we are all dressed in uber Abbot Loots.

[Bunker]

and that is the exact reason I did what I did, If he wants a guarantee that if it drops he gets it then run with his guild or friends

Keep telling yourself that ace. And PM me your characters so I know to stay clear of ya. /cheers

[Mentor61]

That's just as bad as these greedy idiots that put up a lfm saying that if you loot something they want you have to give it to them. I did a bobble loot run in weapons shipment the other day and got it, as soon as i opened the chest the group leader started yelling that I had better give it to him since he was the one who put the group together, so I took it out of the chest, told him what he can go do with his mother and then recalled out and sold it to junk dealer. (since I am a fighter and have no MP) The whole time i was explaining to him what I was doing and how much i got for it from the junk dealer just to rub it in then I dropped group and sat back and smiled.

You sir,I can group with.Keep the spirit alive.only an idiot would expect a perfect stranger in a pug to "have" to pass it over.You did what I would have done.

[Krag]

Depends on how you look at it I guess. On Thelanis there are basically 4 or 5 guilds that run this, either as guild runs, mixes between those guilds, friends of those guilds that guys have known for years, and then maybe 2-4 PUG members. I'm not in any of those guilds or "friends" with them (in other words they don't ask me to join), so whenever I run those it's simply pretty much as a warm body. Do I contribute? Of course. I can do all 3 puzzles, but mainly when these groups form they already have their "puzzlers" predetermined so all they need me to do is mass heal/break encasement. First few runs it ****** me off when things fell and I wasn't able to roll on them. But, the plain and simple fact is that Abbott is pretty much unPUGable (not like Hound/VOD, where you can easily talk people through it at least). If it wasn't for those guilds that took the time to figure it out, practice the puzzles, etc, I wouldn't get to run it at all. So, I go in, do the best job I can, and wait until my 20/40/whatever to get what I need if it doesn't fall for me. Strictly fair? Nope, but it's just part of the DDO culture that sometimes you have to deal with.

Sorry for the slight derailment.


I think it's quite amusing that Americans are ok with being treated like black people in South Africa.
I know it's only a game, but still...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Not all people that are in those raids are carried. :rolleyes: In fact, some of those ppl need help being carried sometimes. :D

Talking in general, not specific here :p

[biggin]

This is a feature of Thelanis. It really takes just a little organization to beat the abbot. It is similiar in some ways on Khyber, but there is a much friendlier atmosphere toward pugs. Get off the pot and do something about it find players/guilds and work together there is no reason why just 4 guilds can get the job done. The abbot is one of those quests that is less about character skill and more about player mario skills so you do not need even good gear or well built characters to beat it.

Just want to point something out real quick. I wasn't implying that no matter what, no PUGger is allowed to roll on gear. Some of these guilds are really friendly and let raid gear go to roll, and even the ones that you don't get to roll for raid items aren't unfriendly. They just operate under the policy that guildies will always take precedence over the PUG's, which is great IMO. I believe that guilds that take care of their members first are great guilds. What's the point in being in one if it doesn't?

And you are right. Honestly, I could scroll through the Who list and put together a PUG Abbott. I could also grab a few guildies and practice the puzzle rooms. It's been part of my failure as an officer of my guild, not proud of it. I just normally play during the day when most of my guild isn't on, and at night when I do get to log on it's to catch up to raid counters, help out guys on lowbies, farm quests for items they need, etc. Just been playing mostly the past 3+ years as a PUGger, even when guilded it's usually just a group of people I enjoy running with. Uber play is 2nd on my list, 1st being social/making fun of each other/helping guys advance where needed. Maybe this was the kick in the *** I needed. :)

[BurningDownTheHouse]

And this makes me sad panda :(
People who join groups on such terms must have no dignity at all. As much as I appreciate smooth runs over average pugging experience, willingly entering a lower-than-a-man role is pathetic.

Agreed, but there you have it...

[Bunker]

Talking in general, not specific here :p

Hehehe, I know. It is just the whole "we carried you through the raid, you should be privledged to be with us" additude is simply laughable. The ego of some ppl is hilarious (in a sad way).

[weyoun]

Hey bro, like I said, I'm not supporting the leader. I see those Lfms all the time, saying "join only if you want to give me <insert item here>". I almost neer join them, unless it is someone I know, and would be happy to help em out. But the fighter doing what he did, sure it might seem kind of funny, and cool, cause he pulled that simply for spite, and laughs. But hey, let me know who you are, so that fighter can stay out of my groups. I personally don't care for those types tainting my good times while playing a game.

You said "taint."

I've been on countless icy raiment, blue scale, gird, whatever item runs for friends. But a public LFM and subsequent tirade are recipes for disaster. The guy who posted that LFM opened it up on himself. I've had public lfms for raiments, but I also offered large sums of plat for it in the lfm, and I've had folks loot it for themselves. I don't get mad, or upset cause its their loot. Just like when puggers pull something they can't use in a raid, and especially now with reincarnation. I can't tell if someone's gonna reincarnate into something else, so I'm not gonna get all up in arms over it.

[Xithos]

and that is the exact reason I did what I did, If he wants a guarantee that if it drops he gets it then run with his guild or friends

Who are you exactly? :) Forum name is useless; need ingame character names.

[Bunker]

You said "taint."

I've been on countless icy raiment, blue scale, gird, whatever item runs for friends. But a public LFM and subsequent tirade are recipes for disaster. The guy who posted that LFM opened it up on himself. I've had public lfms for raiments, but I also offered large sums of plat for it in the lfm, and I've had folks loot it for themselves. I don't get mad, or upset cause its their loot. Just like when puggers pull something they can't use in a raid, and especially now with reincarnation. I can't tell if someone's gonna reincarnate into something else, so I'm not gonna get all up in arms over it.

I said "taint."

Yeah, I with ya on some of those groups being recipe for disaster. More the reason to avoid them. However, if someone wants to have an lfm up saying, "only join if you give me this", then go for it. I will still shake my head laughing at them, but ultimately, it does not change my gaming experience, so it doesn't really matter to me. And anyone that joins that group simply to grief that party leader is truely a waste of human space. If you want to get your jollies off, thier are more useful ways that do not impair others.

But as you an I know, having played this game for so long Weyoun, sooner or later we will run into Donkeys just like that.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I think it's quite amusing that Americans are ok with being treated like black people in South Africa.
I know it's only a game, but still...

Bad comparison there man, it's not like anyone makes them raid in a certain group or descriminates them solely on somthing superficial like skin color.

It's more like web a community, in which you have more previliges if you are a member than if you are a guest.

[Mirta]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

Grats to the guy who sold it, seriously. Your loot is your loot. If you want to sell it then do so. The haters can hate, but at least the hated got paid.

[Mithran]

Grats to the guy who sold it, seriously. Your loot is your loot. If you want to sell it then do so. The haters can hate, but at least the hated got paid.

You sound like a banker.

[weyoun]

Grats to the guy who sold it, seriously. Your loot is your loot. If you want to sell it then do so. The haters can hate, but at least the hated got paid.

+ 1 rep, oh wait your rep is disabled

[Mirta]

You sound like a banker.

No, just a sociopath. Oh wait... same thing? :confused:

[Mentor61]

No, just a sociopath. Oh wait... same thing? :confused:

On my way to Orien!+1 rep.Oh wait...dang only the cool kids have rep.

[Murderface]

all the lucky rollers will pressure everyone into rolling for items but i still say do what u want
if u want to trade it off dont be shy just tell everyone who is rolling your gonna give it to the highest bidder and if they dont like it they got the problem not you!!!!!!

[Anderei]

all the lucky rollers will pressure everyone into rolling for items but i still say do what u want
if u want to trade it off dont be shy just tell everyone who is rolling your gonna give it to the highest bidder and if they dont like it they got the problem not you!!!!!!

Did you read the OP, of course your loot is your loot. But he was saying "Go ahead and roll for it", then someguy lost the roll, and decided to offer him 100k for it instead (which is a laughable amount by that level) and he switches around, and instead of giving it to the highest roller he went over for the 100k. If he didn't say its up for a roll, the story would be very different, since rolling then is just rude.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Hehehe, I know. It is just the whole "we carried you through the raid, you should be privledged to be with us" additude is simply laughable. The ego of some ppl is hilarious (in a sad way).

Well, for most people it's not an ego trip, just reality. I you join an lfm run by a certain guild, you will have to accept their rules. There are reasons why those people are in the same guild, and one of them is usually that they prefer each others company to the company of strangers. And it's much easier to share with people you are friendly with. Power of the clan and all that...

[Anderei]

Grats to the guy who sold it, seriously. Your loot is your loot. If you want to sell it then do so. The haters can hate, but at least the hated got paid.

And your word is worth **** then, if you say its up for roll, than keep it up for roll, and don't change your mind (if he was selling it from start it would be another story), because somebody who rolled(!) and got a bad roll, bribes the dice to win after all.

[Mirta]

And your word is worth **** then, if you say its up for roll, than keep it up for roll, and don't change your mind (if he was selling it from start it would be another story), because somebody who rolled(!) and got a bad roll, bribes the dice to win after all.

In soviet Russia, capitalism angers YOU!

[Bunker]

Well, for most people it's not an ego trip, just reality. I you join an lfm run by a certain guild, you will have to accept their rules. There are reasons why those people are in the same guild, and one of them is usually that they prefer each others company to the company of strangers. And it's much easier to share with people you are friendly with. Power of the clan and all that...

Oh come now. Someone saying to a pug, "you should thank us for dragging you through the quest" or something along that line is nothing but another way of stroking one's Epeen. (aka online ego)

[weyoun]

In soviet Russia, capitalism angers YOU!

best laugh of the day

[Mirta]

best laugh of the day

Hey dude, I called in sick for today and tomorrow, will be hating all weekend.

[weyoun]

Oh come now. Someone saying to a pug, "you should thank us for dragging you through the quest" or something along that line is nothing but another way of stroking one's Epeen. (aka online ego)

Oh come now, that is your opinion Bunk. When's the last time you've heard someone say, "you should thank us for dragging you though the quest?" This is a straw man argument. More coffee Bunk.

[weyoun]

Hey dude, I called in sick for today and tomorrow, will be hating all weekend.

Deal

[Bunker]

Oh come now, that is your opinion Bunk. When's the last time you've heard someone say, "you should thank us for dragging you though the quest?" This is a straw man argument. More coffee Bunk.

Don't usually hear it out in public like that, but behind closed doors, all the time. Do it, don't do it, whatever. I simply find it humorous enough to laugh at.

Coffee maker out of commision, and out of instant.

Edit: And when is something on these forums not opinion. Of course it is. But it also doens't mean i'm completely inaccurate in my opinion.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Oh come now. Someone saying to a pug, "you should thank us for dragging you through the quest" or something along that line is nothing but another way of stroking one's Epeen. (aka online ego)

Thing is, people rarely actually say it. Some think it, but that's between you and your Epeen.

Buttom line is, people know the stakes when they join the run (and if not they will know the next time).
Saying you don't like the rules after everything is done is kinda lame...

[Bunker]

Saying you don't like the rules after everything is done is kinda lame...

yup

[xTethx]

Deal

I second that. Maybe i should put an lfm for eye of titan, if you pull trinket its mine. Oh wait after 80 practically solo elite runs I still dont have it. Noobs are noobs, they arent getting my loot.

Tip #21: You might be a noob if I dont group with you.

[Mentor61]

I second that. Maybe i should put an lfm for eye of titan, if you pull trinket its mine. Oh wait after 80 practically solo elite runs I still dont have it. Noobs are noobs, they arent getting my loot.

Tip #21: You might be a noob if I dont group with you.

Danny,get back to class!

[xTethx]

Danny,get back to class!

How does everyone know my name? ***!

[Bunker]

I second that. Maybe i should put an lfm for eye of titan, if you pull trinket its mine. Oh wait after 80 practically solo elite runs I still dont have it. Noobs are noobs, they arent getting my loot.

Tip #21: You might be a noob if I dont group with you.

Off topic: I hear it was actually obtained like a collectable of sorts. Something that you have to look for, like some worm or something that crawls out of the clam at the end. /shrug not confired by me or anything, just what I heard.

[xTethx]

Off topic: I hear it was actually obtained like a collectable of sorts. Something that you have to look for, like some worm or something that crawls out of the clam at the end. /shrug not confired by me or anything, just what I heard.

Yea I've been lookin for him bb's up and implosion on. That bug aint livin he comes out of the chest.

[Mentor61]

How does everyone know my name? ***!

haha,some worms find a way!lrn2playnubsickle.

/Full derail off.


EDIT :D

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Off topic: I hear it was actually obtained like a collectable of sorts. Something that you have to look for, like some worm or something that crawls out of the clam at the end. /shrug not confired by me or anything, just what I heard.

Yes, apparanty it's a critter that pops when you open the clam, and the trinket drops as a collectable when you kill it.

[xTethx]

haha,some worms find a way!lrn2playnubsickle.

/Full derail off.

Well your join date is Feb, so either you're one of my "band" buddies or you're a stalking noob.

Or, maybe you're both :)

[DarkThoughts]

How does putting an item up for roll work?

[Impatiens]

Vorpal Dream Edge

Entirely off topic, but out of curiosity were you on elite when this dropped? I've been trying to get one (or two, ha!) and was told that it could only drop on elite so it would be nice to confirm.

[weyoun]

Danny,get back to class!

Why aren't you at work Christian? They giving you a day off because of the curling?

[Mentor61]

Well your join date is Feb, so either you're one of my "band" buddies or you're a stalking noob.

Or, maybe you're both :)



You can find me from my last post.My accounts don't work long.

Dude!That's 2 huge tips!

[Mentor61]

Why aren't you at work Christian? They giving you a day off because of the curling?

OMG! Why does every nub know my name! :) I'll be on tonight boys - Orien style.The rebirth of the muskateers!

[xTethx]

You can find me from my last post.My accounts don't work long.

Dude!That's 2 huge tips!

Goddddd its youuu! Why are you posting on the forums? The devs let you?

[xTethx]

OMG! Why does every nub know my name! :) I'll be on tonight boys - Orien style.The rebirth of the muskateers!

They all mights be comin back to Thelanis; Turbine takin too long with character transfers to Orien.
Besides the crop of noob on Orien is mighty ripe.

[Bunker]

Entirely off topic, but out of curiosity were you on elite when this dropped? I've been trying to get one (or two, ha!) and was told that it could only drop on elite so it would be nice to confirm.

Reports from players stated that the Dreamedges dropped in Mindsunder scale with the difficulty of the quest.

IE: On normal you will see more featherfalling and UWA dreamedges and on elite you would see more greater bane and vorpal dreamedge weapons.

[weyoun]

They all mights be comin back to Thelanis; Turbine takin too long with character transfers to Orien.
Besides the crop of noob on Orien is mighty ripe.

Its true worm, we are going back to thelanis, somewhat.

[Impatiens]

Reports from players stated that the Dreamedges dropped in Mindsunder scale with the difficulty of the quest.

IE: On normal you will see more featherfalling and UWA dreamedges and on elite you would see more greater bane and vorpal dreamedge weapons.

Yeah that's what I have heard as well. And I do suppose that even if a vorpal dream edge can drop on normal it would be more likely to drop on elite so I should run it on elite regardless. People just seem to always want to run the thing on normal when I'm in groups for it. :(

[Ministry]

To the OP, made by my good friend and guildy... I do completely agree... BUT...

Once upon a time, in band camp...

I was in a Titan run and was with a mix of people I knew and some I didn't and the named loot dropped. I took a quick look at the item and thought... hmm... I would like that, so I rolled.

In the end, when I won the roll, I looked at the item a bit better (never seen before) and thought, Meh.. no interest and sent my buddy who lost the roll a tell and asked if they want it. They agreed and I flipped it to them.

Did anyone say anything? Nope. Did they know? Yup. They even asked my friend who now had it to show them what it looked like.

Was that cool to do back then? At the time, no one thought otherwise. Afterwards I realized I should have offered it up to the person who rolled 2nd highest, but it was too late.

Now, let's be honest, 100K plat is very little in most of the vets world, but maybe to a newer player it was everything, so he / she made the deal. Who was wrong?

Do all people agree this was wrong?

The one thing I've found coming back into the game, there is a tremendous amount of ignorance about what is "right" according to the majority of vet players.

Don't roll if you can't use it, have poison curse and heal pots at all times, don't run into the middle part of part II of the shroud at the beginning, etc... etc...

So, did I know it was wrong after I passed the item to my friend... not at first, but shortly after I thought about it and yes... it was not the best move. Did everyone on the run said bad Min afterwards? I don't know... not to my face / ears.

So, did this guy / girl know this was bad form or something we don't think is cool?

In the end, we can only impart so much ettiquette on so many people... in this case it wasn't cool what they did, but all we can do is attempt to establish some kind of understanding or agreement in the game and before raids. At least this way the person has no choice but to follow the rules or be blacklisted / made pariah.

Maybe we have to start stating raid loot rules before each raid again?

I remember back when some guilds including Legion would state their guilds raid loot rules ahead of time. People didn't like it, but so what... at least they knew what they were getting into.

Okay, this is not exactly what happened... but my variation on something similar.

In a case like this one in the OP... I've seen a few examples close to that, whereby the person who the raid loot fell to held an auction right on the spot... very strange one and really not cool.

In this case on this thread... make a decison / statement and stick with it, the plat will come... friends and people to NOT blacklist you are way more important and in the long run will have a bigger impact on you then the bit of plat.

Hey, if I saw what Impaqt saw, I probably would have reacted the exact same way... most likely worse.

In the end... well... that's the end.

[Rusty_Can]

Entirely off topic, but out of curiosity were you on elite when this dropped? I've been trying to get one (or two, ha!) and was told that it could only drop on elite so it would be nice to confirm.

Tbh, we were doing multiple runs, so I can't be positive about that, but yes, as far as i remember, it was elite.

[Impaqt]

To the OP, made by my good friend and guildy... I do completely agree... BUT...

Once upon a time, in band camp...

I was in a Titan run and was with a mix of people I knew and some I didn't and the named loot dropped. I took a quick look at the item and thought... hmm... I would like that, so I rolled.

In the end, when I won the roll, I looked at the item a bit better (never seen before) and thought, Meh.. no interest and sent my buddy who lost the roll a tell and asked if they want it. They agreed and I flipped it to them.

Did anyone say anything? Nope. Did they know? Yup. They even asked my friend who now had it to show them what it looked like.

Was that cool to do back then? At the time, no one thought otherwise. Afterwards I realized I should have offered it up to the person who rolled 2nd highest, but it was too late.

Now, let's be honest, 100K plat is very little in most of the vets world, but maybe to a newer player it was everything, so he / she made the deal. Who was wrong?

Do all people agree this was wrong?

The one thing I've found coming back into the game, there is a tremendous amount of ignorance about what is "right" according to the majority of vet players.

Don't roll if you can't use it, have poison curse and heal pots at all times, don't run into the middle part of part II of the shroud at the beginning, etc... etc...

So, did I know it was wrong after I passed the item to my friend... not at first, but shortly after I thought about it and yes... it was not the best move. Did everyone on the run said bad Min afterwards? I don't know... not to my face / ears.

So, did this guy / girl know this was bad form or something we don't think is cool?

In the end, we can only impart so much ettiquette on so many people... in this case it wasn't cool what they did, but all we can do is attempt to establish some kind of understanding or agreement in the game and before raids. At least this way the person has no choice but to follow the rules or be blacklisted / made pariah.

Maybe we have to start stating raid loot rules before each raid again?

I remember back when some guilds including Legion would state their guilds raid loot rules ahead of time. People didn't like it, but so what... at least they knew what they were getting into.

Okay, this is not exactly what happened... but my variation on something similar.

In a case like this one in the OP... I've seen a few examples close to that, whereby the person who the raid loot fell to held an auction right on the spot... very strange one and really not cool.

In this case on this thread... make a decison / statement and stick with it, the plat will come... friends and people to NOT blacklist you are way more important and in the long run will have a bigger impact on you then the bit of plat.

Hey, if I saw what Impaqt saw, I probably would have reacted the exact same way... most likely worse.

In the end... well... that's the end.


Well, Rolling with the intent of giving a guildy a better chance to win would fall into my "Cheesy" file. Thats not what happened in your case as you describe it, and most folks know that you are a stand up guy.

Like I said, I really don't care what anyone does with their raid loot. But I expect people to stand by what they say. If he wanted to auction it off, I would not of participated, I would of just moved on to the next quest....

ya know, even if he sent me a tel saying "Hey, I know you won the roll, but I really could use the plat" I would of given him 100k just to make him feel better.

Both parties involved handled themselves and the the situation poorly.

And no, This thread is not about getting people to ask me who they were..... It was my hope that the parties involved would see it and the reactions and maybe realize how their actions were seen and maybe next time they would handle the situation differently.... Or not...

I generally don't rant, I don't Permanently blacklist people or guilds. I would hope that others would not either... especially based on a single forum thread....

[DoctorWhofan]

SInce Mini, Lysol, Mirta (god! he isn't banned yet?!?!), Eriik have piped in, I suppose It isrequired by some obscure Thelanis law that I get my two coppers in too....

Before it becomes yet another "It's Legion's Fault!" thread. ;)

First of all, my story. One of 6 (yes only 6) Titan runs, my Trissa pulled a Chattering Ring. I looked at it (I never saw one before) And told the party publicly give me a minute to decide. Actually I was letting others pick up their loot so to see if anything else dropped. Some other stuff did and went up for roll. Meanwhile I was bombarded with rare items and promises of so much plat that my head I'd never say that I was poor ever again.

THis is before I said ANYTHING of general chat.

I thought about it, then remembered my first raid completion, VoN, with the old two runestones style raid loot. And how I won my first piece of Raid loot, the silver concord ring (I still have, though don't wear anymore) from Eriik's wife and two others in a roll. In the days of "Guild FIRST! Friends SECOND! PuGgers LAST!" THe guild allowed me, a PuGger, to roll and recieve that.

I said over Teamspeak : "Roll a 1d100, please. People who can use it please!" One of the casters won the roll but the second place guy was a barb (I think!) and I gave it to him. I set the rules, if you can't follow directions, you don't count.

I wouldn't bethere at completion without all the people in the party. They would not bethere without me. Regardless if it is a "pull through zerger run pre raid" or not. I am sure we have helped each other to get flagged forthat and any other raid. We help each other, usually without demands of money (well except Lysol. He hast to pay me to heal him! :p ) in our own way. Sure, you can do the Pre-raid solo (not titan, I know) NOW, how about when you started? Were you in a guild?

Regardless...most Thelanis vets that I play with have a rule, "Pay it Forward." Putting items up for a roll is a way to do so, for many of us would not be here in that raid, without help of some sort.

Do I have exceptions? yes. If my hubby was in the party with his tank, he would have gotten first dibs. Hey! he pays for my sub! I live with him! :) BUt I would have told the party that staight upfront at the beginning and repeat it several times. But he was on his caster, kicking himself for being on timer.

Regardless, that is me, and my reasons.

on the ethical question that Impaqt posed in his OP, think about it. The puller of the loot made a verbal contract with the rest ofthe party then reneged on it. True, it IS his loot, but what else would he reneged on? THis is an issue of trust: Trust in the person, andthe guild name underneath it. You repersent your guild everytime you show up in a party, say something in general/trade/etc. and for many, on the forums.

WHat does it say about you? What kind of person are you? THis may be a game, but it also is a reflection of yourself in RL. If you knew this person in RL, would you trust him to do stuff when he promises?

Just think about it.

/de-rail..

I'm trying to take a vacation from the forums here, and you are not helping. I blame Mirta and Lysol. Then again, I blame them for everything! And Legion Too! ;):p:D

[Anderei]

To the OP, made by my good friend and guildy... I do completely agree... BUT...

Once upon a time, in band camp...

I was in a Titan run and was with a mix of people I knew and some I didn't and the named loot dropped. I took a quick look at the item and thought... hmm... I would like that, so I rolled.

In the end, when I won the roll, I looked at the item a bit better (never seen before) and thought, Meh.. no interest and sent my buddy who lost the roll a tell and asked if they want it. They agreed and I flipped it to them.

Did anyone say anything? Nope. Did they know? Yup. They even asked my friend who now had it to show them what it looked like.

Was that cool to do back then? At the time, no one thought otherwise. Afterwards I realized I should have offered it up to the person who rolled 2nd highest, but it was too late.

Now, let's be honest, 100K plat is very little in most of the vets world, but maybe to a newer player it was everything, so he / she made the deal. Who was wrong?

Do all people agree this was wrong?

The one thing I've found coming back into the game, there is a tremendous amount of ignorance about what is "right" according to the majority of vet players.

Don't roll if you can't use it, have poison curse and heal pots at all times, don't run into the middle part of part II of the shroud at the beginning, etc... etc...

So, did I know it was wrong after I passed the item to my friend... not at first, but shortly after I thought about it and yes... it was not the best move. Did everyone on the run said bad Min afterwards? I don't know... not to my face / ears.

So, did this guy / girl know this was bad form or something we don't think is cool?

In the end, we can only impart so much ettiquette on so many people... in this case it wasn't cool what they did, but all we can do is attempt to establish some kind of understanding or agreement in the game and before raids. At least this way the person has no choice but to follow the rules or be blacklisted / made pariah.

Maybe we have to start stating raid loot rules before each raid again?

I remember back when some guilds including Legion would state their guilds raid loot rules ahead of time. People didn't like it, but so what... at least they knew what they were getting into.

Okay, this is not exactly what happened... but my variation on something similar.

In a case like this one in the OP... I've seen a few examples close to that, whereby the person who the raid loot fell to held an auction right on the spot... very strange one and really not cool.

In this case on this thread... make a decison / statement and stick with it, the plat will come... friends and people to NOT blacklist you are way more important and in the long run will have a bigger impact on you then the bit of plat.

Hey, if I saw what Impaqt saw, I probably would have reacted the exact same way... most likely worse.

In the end... well... that's the end.

First, rolling without the loot owner putting it up for a roll is rude (don't know if it was the case)
Second, rolling for a friend/guildy to increase his/her chances is rude.

If you discover, you do need it actually yourself, just step back, and let the guy/gal with the second best roll have it.

[Ministry]

First, rolling without the loot owner putting it up for a roll is rude (don't know if it was the case)
Second, rolling for a friend/guildy to increase his/her chances is rude.

If you discover, you do need it actually yourself, just step back, and let the guy/gal with the second best roll have it.

My point wasn't to be debated. I made it to make an analogy.

Anyone reading what I did way back a long time ago, including me would agree that what I did was wrong, but I didn't really think it was at the exact moment, only realizing later and no one said anything, because it wasn't established or known to be "wrong".

I didn't roll for someone else.. I rolled for me and changed my mind.

The person in the OP made a decision that seemed like the right one to them at the time, but minutes after or perhaps after reading all these posts might realize what they did was not cool... but it was their decision and they have to live with it or learn from it or both.

Hey, no one attacked me for what I did, because as Impaqt stated above, I had no malintent and only thought about it afterwards.

Maybe that's the case with this guy / gal and maybe it's not.

We've seen the good, bad and ugly in this game and all we can do is post our opinion, much like so many have done for 8 pages.

The forums are for people to share their thoughts, advice and everything in between, but ideally, if you are going to do so... make sure you turn on your reading comprehension program.

[Thrudh]

Oh come now, that is your opinion Bunk. When's the last time you've heard someone say, "you should thank us for dragging you though the quest?" This is a straw man argument. More coffee Bunk.

Are you kidding? You, who apparently invented the word pile-on, say it ALL the time, both in-game and on the forums...

Didn't you quit?

[Mentor61]

Its true worm, we are going back to thelanis, somewhat.

Really?No Deal!

[Bunker]

Are you kidding? You, who apparently invented the word pile-on, say it ALL the time, both in-game and on the forums...

Didn't you quit?

Hey Thrudh, we all know what Weyoun said was simply a case of pot calling kettle black. It happens.:D

[Captain_Wizbang]

PM the name and guild impaqt.

[Bunker]

PM the name and guild impaqt.




And no, This thread is not about getting people to ask me who they were..... It was my hope that the parties involved would see it and the reactions and maybe realize how their actions were seen and maybe next time they would handle the situation differently.... Or not...



Reading FtW

[countesscrow]

I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

I can top this. Also happen last night. Icy Runs.

My very first icy run "as a reincarnate" I pull an Icy. I already have one so put it up for roll.

A dex based fighter wins it. Next run this Dex based fighter gets an icy. Starts saying he'll sell it for 150k plat.

I said a few choice words and left the raid.

Nuff Said!

[Seelowe]

I can top this. Also happen last night. Icy Runs.
My very first icy run "as a reincarnate" I pull an Icy. I already have one so put it up for roll.
A dex based fighter wins it. Next run this Dex based fighter gets an icy. Starts saying he'll sell it for 150k plat.
I said a few choice words and left the raid.
Nuff Said!

wow, that's brutal :D

[Bunker]

I can top this. Also happen last night. Icy Runs.

My very first icy run "as a reincarnate" I pull an Icy. I already have one so put it up for roll.

A dex based fighter wins it. Next run this Dex based fighter gets an icy. Starts saying he'll sell it for 150k plat.

I said a few choice words and left the raid.

Nuff Said!

LMAO. I wish turbine would work on character customizing for the game. Perhaps a way to give our characters more tatoos then simply the ones shown with dragonmarks. Then the player you described could tatoo LAME across his characters face so we all now what is coming. :D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yeah that's what I have heard as well. And I do suppose that even if a vorpal dream edge can drop on normal it would be more likely to drop on elite so I should run it on elite regardless. People just seem to always want to run the thing on normal when I'm in groups for it. :(

Not long after the IQ was released Eladrin said something to the effect of "the random effect isn't completely random" and I think even hinted that difficulty was a factor. Certainly that's the conclusion that everyone reached and I have noticed that you tend to get better "random" on the higher difficulties, but that of course is subjective and you can get **** and good versions at all levels.

[Gunga]

Ok...so it's your loot until you say you're putting it up for roll, and then it belongs to the party?

No.

It's annoying, but that's life bud.

FYI - For card carrying members of the Your Loot is Your Loot club (the YLYL's), this scenerio is a non-issue. You might want to check your membership - it's probably expired.

[Anderei]

Ok...so it's your loot until you say you're putting it up for roll, and then it belongs to the party?

When you say its up for a roll, stick with your word, if you want to have your word count something make it count something.

[Impaqt]

Ok...so it's your loot until you say you're putting it up for roll, and then it belongs to the party?

No.

It's annoying, but that's life bud.

FYI - For card carrying members of the Your Loot is Your Loot club (the YLYL's), this scenerio is a non-issue. You might want to check your membership - it's probably expired.

As I said. No issue with the fact that he sold his loot. but I feel once you commit to a certain form of distributing your loot (In this case, D125 Roll) you should stick to it. This isnt about the loot at all. Its about Ethics.

[Judo]

How'd my mom get in the middle of all this?

waits for it....

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Im sorry that happened to you - I had that happen to me in an Icy Rainment run where someone got it that didnt want it and put it up for roll. He first asked before putting it up for roll if anyone wanted to trade/buy it off of him. I made my best offer which he rejected and then put it up for roll. After I won the roll someone offered 2 large devil scales. Guess what happened.

Its a matter of fact taht this will happen over and over as people would prefer to roll and see if they win before they make an offer and if they lose the roll at that point they will make the offer because they already lost. I mean would you rather have something for free or pay out the nose?

This is why if I am putting something up for roll I will state I am willing to trade for it before I roll and I make sure to add this disclaimer that if you wish to purchase this from me that I am only going to take offers prior to rolling. If you roll and lose and then offer me goods or money not only will I make sure you dont get it - if I end up in another group with you are in I am rolling against everything you want and because I dont want, need or desire it I will most likely win it and vendor it and I will make sure you know that I vendored it.

[Ministry]

The fun part is that we all post our opinions, but in the end, there is no real win.

I completely agree with Impaqt and stated this earlier myself... If you say you are going to do something, stick with it... it's a credibility thing.

The funny part, I honestly fault the person offering the plat after the rolls, more than I fault the person who accepted the plat... Umm... Didn't you just see / hear the person put the item up for a roll and a winner resulted from it?

It's like when you tell your kid you are going to take them to disneyland this weekend and then change your mind because some hot babe comes along and offers to take you to reno for the weekend.

Yup, it's your right to take her up on the offer, but seriously... what/who is more important... your word / declaration or some hot chick, or in this case a bit of plat.

[Gunga]

stick with your word


Its about Ethics.

If this is truly all about your word and about ethics, albeit as they pertain to an online videogame, than, if you, as an ETHICAL PERSON OF YOUR WORD, say one thing, like, "It's your loot to do with as you please," it would be hypocritical (not ethical or not of your word) to ever expect loot that isn't yours.

It would be doubly hypocritical to then weep on the shoulders of the entitled forum nation when you didn't get loot that wasn't yours.

Just sayin.

[Anderei]

If this is truly all about your word and about ethics, albeit as they pertain to an online videogame, than, if you, as an ETHICAL PERSON OF YOUR WORD, say one thing, like, "It's your loot to do with as you please," it would be hypocritical (not ethical or not of your word) to ever expect loot that isn't yours.

It would be doubly hypocritical to then weep on the shoulders of the entitled forum nation when you didn't get loot that wasn't yours.

Just sayin.

I expect anybody to stick with their word, video game or not. That has nothing todo with expecting loot.

Take other hypocretical example, two named loot, the wiz thing drops for the fighter and vice versa.

Wiz: Hey Fighter how about exchanging the named drops?
Fighter: Yes, good idea, lets do that.
Wiz assigns his fighter thing to the fighter.
Fighter loots both!

Mine loot, mine, and I do with it what I want! (aka. my word counts nothing, its just a video game.)

You're okay with this?

[Anderei]

The funny part, I honestly fault the person offering the plat after the rolls, more than I fault the person who accepted the plat... Umm... Didn't you just see / hear the person put the item up for a roll and a winner resulted from it?


Actually reading Impaq closely, this person even rolled himself, when he lost, he offered plat instead. Can you get any more sneaky dirty weasel?

[Ministry]

Actually reading Impaq closely, this person even rolled himself, when he lost, he offered plat instead. Can you get any more sneaky dirty weasel?

That would be quite the feat to accomplish. It would be very difficult to top that level of weasel ish/ness/whatever.

Wow... would love all the names/alts of that person, but I can't ask for them... oh hang on, Impaqt is my guildy. :)

The reality is... stuff like this happens in the real world all the time and it's called business. Is it ethical? That as many things are up for debate.

Is it cool in our game... not in most people's minds.

It comes down to this... we are all different and do different things and think different things are okay. The majority of people don't agree with some things, but a minority do and some don't care.

So, who's right.

Again guys... not about who's right or wrong... just opinions for us to express and have some fun with.

Seriously... what else should we be doing while at work?

;)

****.. I miss Memnir and his pics... come on my brother... post something here.

:)

[Gunga]

I expect anybody to stick with their word, video game or not. That has nothing todo with expecting loot.

Take other hypocretical example, two named loot, the wiz thing drops for the fighter and vice versa.

Wiz: Hey Fighter how about exchanging the named drops?
Fighter: Yes, good idea, lets do that.
Wiz assigns his fighter thing to the fighter.
Fighter loots both!

Mine loot, mine, and my word counts nothing, its just a video game.

You're okay with this?

It's not the same. If raid loot is involved, your example is one of MMO Grand Theft Larceny, which in most states is punishable by Capital Forum Humiliation.

Your Loot is Your Loot. You either subscribe to this philosophy or you don't.

If you do, than the most you could be bothered with is that the jerk made you sit around and roll. Who cares? Next raid.

If you don't, then, well...here we are.

[Gunga]

Can you get any more sneaky dirty weasel?

What exactly is weasely about offering a person something of value in exchange for something the person owns?

Capitalism. You'll learn all about it at some point in your life, being that we live in the society of.

[Impaqt]

If this is truly all about your word and about ethics, albeit as they pertain to an online videogame, than, if you, as an ETHICAL PERSON OF YOUR WORD, say one thing, like, "It's your loot to do with as you please," it would be hypocritical (not ethical or not of your word) to ever expect loot that isn't yours.

It would be doubly hypocritical to then weep on the shoulders of the entitled forum nation when you didn't get loot that wasn't yours.

Just sayin.


I did not expect the loot until it was offered to me.

[Anderei]

It's not the same. If raid loot is involved, your example is one of MMO Grand Theft Larceny, which in most states is punishable by Capital Forum Humiliation.

Your Loot is Your Loot. You either subscribe to this philosophy or you don't.

If you do, than the most you could be bothered with is that the jerk made you sit around and roll. Who cares? Next raid.

If you don't, then, well...here we are.

No it is the same! two rules of equal importance:
1) You're loot is your loot
2) You're word is your word

Now the exchange example, when exactly did ownership of the loot transfer? Exactly the moment you agreed to exchange it, if you turn around in middle of the transaction and keep both, or turn around and sell the thing that dropped originally for you, you're betraying.

Same with the roll, the moment you say, "its up to the roll", ethically it belongs to the winner, if you turn around in middle of the process, its just as well betraying.

[Seelowe]

What exactly is weasely about offering a person something of value in exchange for something the person owns?

Capitalism. You'll learn all about it at some point in your life, being that we live in the society of.
maybe what you are missing is that the person, that offered plat rolled along with everyone else for the loot and lost the loot roll. THEN offered plat to the guy that had the named item assigned to his name in the chest, not the other way around timeline-wise.
so guy puts stuff up for roll.
a bunch of ppl roll for it including person X.
person Y wins the loot roll.
person X, that lost the loot roll offers plat to keep person Y, that won the roll from getting it.
person X gets the loot.

yup. if my company discovered such practises going on with our say... suppliers we would definitely stop doing business with them bc of non existant work ethics^^

[Anderei]

What exactly is weasely about offering a person something of value in exchange for something the person owns?

Again, you're not quite getting it. Two stories:

Story A)
Loot receiver: Okay, up for a 1d125!
Person A: Nah, how about instead i give you 100k?

Story B)
Loot receiver: Okay, up for a 1d125!
System Message: Person a rolls a 1 (1d125)
Person A: Ehh, i give you 100k instead!

See? This is weasly, since A first agreed upon the rolling mechanism by trying a roll, then after a bad roll tries to overrule with money. In story A, however, he argued what the mechanism should be, completly different story. Story B: most fishy thing you can do. And the other person supporting this behaviour: most meh.



Capitalism. You'll learn all about it at some point in your life, being that we live in the society of.

Actually this is not capitalism. Capitalism is private ownership in production machinery. When this is actually free market, and yes no free market can work with ethics, since adherence to treaties is a fundamental mechanism without a free market does not work. Thats why the free market needs a state to control (make sure) at very least adherence of private treaties. A broken treaty is exactly what this story is about.

I am a graduated master of economics. So likely I learned much more of it than you ever might :) In the society we live in (outside gameing world), breaking your word after concurrent volitions (which form a treaty) will get you to court.

[Gunga]

I did not expect the loot until it was offered to me.

Your Loot is Your Loot. You didn't get the loot to call it yours. Lower your expectations and you'll live longer.

I could walk around saying roll for my house all day long, but until you have the deed, you have nothing.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If this is truly all about your word and about ethics, albeit as they pertain to an online videogame, than, if you, as an ETHICAL PERSON OF YOUR WORD, say one thing, like, "It's your loot to do with as you please," it would be hypocritical (not ethical or not of your word) to ever expect loot that isn't yours.

It would be doubly hypocritical to then weep on the shoulders of the entitled forum nation when you didn't get loot that wasn't yours.

Just sayin.

Nope, that isn't hypocritical at all.

In this case someone agreed to put it up for a roll, the roll happened, and they changed their mind. The other person went back on their word.

It's like if you offer to give to charity, and then change your mind. While you have the legal right to change your mind, its rather unethical to have made a pledge and then broken it, especially if the reason is because breaking that pledge would give you greater financial gain.

[Anderei]

Your Loot is Your Loot. You didn't get the loot to call it yours. Lower your expectations and you'll live longer.

I could walk around saying roll for my house all day long, but until you have the deed, you have nothing.

Wrong, you can create contracts verbally, which you are doing when a) You're offering something b) the person agrees upon it. In our society you will be forced to fulfill contracts.

So, if you are offering your house under conditions X and person b agrees with that and fullfills conditions X, person b can force you over the deed by court.

[Gunga]

So much to teach, where to begin.


No it is the same!

No, your example was stealing.



two rules of equal importance:
1) You're loot is your loot
2) You're word is your word

I've been over this. Once more for you, with feeling.

If you truly consider your loot to be yours, than the rest is folly. It's meaningless. For the OP to say that your loot is yours, and then complain about not getting someonelse's loot is hypocritical.

If I say, "Here, you can have this Sword of Shadows" it's not yours until you have it in your possession. You can say it's yours, you can complain that it should be in your backpack, but it won't be until it is.




Now the exchange example, when exactly did ownership of the loot transfer? Exactly the moment you agreed to exchange it, if you turn around in middle of the transaction and keep both, or turn around and sell the thing that dropped originally for you, you're betraying.

Same with the roll, the moment you say, "its up to the roll", ethically it belongs to the winner, if you turn around in middle of the process, its just as well betraying.

False. You can say I own your house, but it wouldn't be mine until I had the deed.


maybe what you are missing is that the person, that offered plat rolled along with everyone else for the loot and lost the loot roll. THEN offered plat to the guy that had the named item assigned to his name in the chest, not the other way around timeline-wise.
so guy puts stuff up for roll.
a bunch of ppl roll for it including person X.
person Y wins the loot roll.
person X, that lost the loot roll offers plat to keep person Y, that won the roll from getting it.
person X gets the loot.

yup. if my company discovered such practises going on with our say... suppliers we would definitely stop doing business with them bc of non existant work ethics^^

Your company rolls for loot? I'd start job hunting.


Again, you're not quite getting it. Two stories:

Story A)
Loot receiver: Okay, up for a 1d125!
Person A: Nah, how about instead i give you 100k?

Story B)
Loot receiver: Okay, up for a 1d125!
System Message: Person a rolls a 1 (1d125)
Person A: Ehh, i give you 100k instead!

See? This is weasly, since A first agreed upon the rolling mechanism by trying a roll, then after a bad roll tries to overrule with money. In story A, however, he argued what the mechanism should be, completly different story. Story B: most fishy thing you can do

So, not only do you say that you believe the loot belongs to the person that pulled it yet you will pass judgment on what the person does with their loot, but you renounce the person as a weasel if he accepts an unexpected last minute offer.

You're the best. ;)




Actually this is not capitalism. Capitalism is private ownership in production machinery. When this is actually free market, and yes no free market can work with ethics, since adherence to treaties is a fundamental mechanism without a free market does not work. Thats why the free market needs a state to control (make sure) at very least adherence of private treaties. A broken treaty is exactly what this story is about.

A treaty is an agreement between two foreign nations, Greenspan. Besides, it does not exist without considerable documentation.



I am a graduated master of economics. So likely I'll learned much more of it than you ever might :)

Probably. I just have a huge IQ and a truck full of common sense.


In the society we live in (outside gameing world), breaking your word after concurrent volitions (which form a treaty) will get you to court.

Many say that this is exactly what is wrong with our society. Getting into court is easy...winning a case like the one you propose is OJ at best.

[Gunga]

Nope, that isn't hypocritical at all.

In this case someone agreed to put it up for a roll, the roll happened, and they changed their mind. The other person went back on their word.

SO? They changed their mind. It still isn't your loot.

It is absolutely hypocritical to say you don't care about what someone does with their loot and then judge them and whine about what they did with their loot. That is the stark definition of hypocritical. I'm frankly surprised that so many people have a hard time understanding such a simple concept.


It's like if you offer to give to charity, and then change your mind. While you have the legal right to change your mind, its rather unethical to have made a pledge and then broken it, especially if the reason is because breaking that pledge would give you greater financial gain.

Absolutely. It's like you say you're going to give something away and then find out it's more valuable than you thought it was, so you sell it. That is exactly what it's like. There is nothing wrong with that either, unless you actually cheat your taxes and take the financial gain. Then you go to jail.

[Gunga]

Wrong, you can create contracts verbally, which you are doing when a) You're offering something b) the person agrees upon it. In our society you will be forced to fulfill contracts.

So, if you are offering your house under conditions X and person b agrees with that and fullfills conditions X, person b can force you over the deed by court.

I have a bridge to sell you. :rolleyes:

Oh, and here, you can have my Sword of Shadows, too. Wait by the mailbox on Korthos for it.

[Anderei]

No, your example was stealing.


No, its a broken contract. Stealing is "illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.".



If you truly consider your loot to be yours, than the rest is folly. It's meaningless. For the OP to say that your loot is yours, and then complain about not getting someonelse's loot is hypocritical.

If I say, "Here, you can have this Sword of Shadows" it's not yours until you have it in your possession. You can say it's yours, you can complain that it should be in your backpack, but it won't be until it is.

Again wrong, at least some kind of. You have to differ between property and ownership. I see we start here with legal 101. The moment you say "you can have this" and I see "fine, I like too", owership is transfered. Not yet property, since you hold it in your hands. However transfer of property to match ownership can out of the game legally be forced



False. You can say I own your house, but it wouldn't be mine until I had the deed.

Again ownership and property. Or in this case title and delivery. I have a valid title due to the verbally closed contract. If you refuse to deliver under agreed title it can be forced.



Your company rolls for loot? I'd start job hunting.

Lottery is a valid business.

S
o, not only do you say that you believe the loot belongs to the person that pulled it yet you will pass judgment on what the person does with their loot, but you renounce the person as a weasel if he accepts an unexpected last minute offer.

You're the best. ;)

Actually I said the person offering the plat is the weasel, since first he rolls to see if he gets a good roll and the stuff for free, and after he gets a bad roll, he wants to do the money way. Yes this is a weasel in every aspect. The other is either inept enough not to realize what this guys did, or supports its as well.



A treaty is an agreement between two foreign nations, Greenspan. Besides, it does not exist without considerable documentation.

okay, search and replace treaty with contract, I took my law exams in german, so excuse if not hitting the 100% correct english term sometimes.


Probably. I just have a huge IQ and a truck full of common sense.

Has less to do with IQ than learning what is the case.



Many say that this is exactly what is wrong with our society. Getting into court is easy...winning a case like the one you propose is OJ at best.

No, fullfilling contracts is the most basic things. Many philosophers who actually were against politics and states acknowledged at least these basic functions a state must fullfill, otherwise a stable society cannot exist. Even the theoretical laissez-faire state advocated by the most radical free-market theorists is required to fullfill this basic functions:
* (military) security.
* enforcing contracts.


So much to teach, where to begin.

Yes, really much to teach!

[Anderei]

I have a bridge to sell you. :rolleyes:.

You said *my* house, in this story you hold ownership. If you sell/offer things that you do not belong, yes you logically cannot be forced to fullfill your contract. However(!), you can be forced to pay any damages the other party receives for not being able to get the contract you offered. So e.g. if you offer your house for 1000 (units of whatever), but its estimated to be worth 2000, you are forced to pay 1000.

Adhering contracts is really the biggest value a free-market economy and Capitalism builds upon. *Thats* Capitalism.
You'll learn all about it at some point in your life, being that we live in the society of.

[Impaqt]

You keep focusing on the Loot Gunga. Its not about the loot. Its about peoples actions and trust.

If you send me tell in game and said

"Hey, I have an extra bloodstone on this character and since I dont play on Thelanis anymore, I'll sell it to ya for 100k Plat on Khyber"

If I then said Sure, Let me log onto my Khyber characters.

If when I got over there you said "sorry, I decided to sell it to someone else for 103k Plat" I would lose respect for you and doubt your word from then on.

It has nothing to do with the bloodstone. It has to do with following through with what you say.

[Seelowe]

witty responses there but my company actually pays too **** well to job hunt :D

[AkromaAoW]

Some (many) people just lack courtesy, compassion, generosity, and a bunch of other characteristics that would be deemed kindly or honorable. It took me a while to learn this in DDO-dom, but it is a lesson I am sorry to say that I have now learned very well.

I could try to help explain why going back on your word is bad, but honestly, for the folks that are arguing it's yours until the moment it leaves your possession, the presentation would be pointless. Sometimes, it's just as useful to paint someone's name on a rock and talk to it. The result would be the same...

E.

[Anderei]

You keep focusing on the Loot Gunga. Its not about the loot. Its about peoples actions and trust.

If you send me tell in game and said

"Hey, I have an extra bloodstone on this character and since I dont play on Thelanis anymore, I'll sell it to ya for 100k Plat on Khyber"

If I then said Sure, Let me log onto my Khyber characters.

If when I got over there you said "sorry, I decided to sell it to someone else for 103k Plat" I would lose respect for you and doubt your word from then on.

It has nothing to do with the bloodstone. It has to do with following through with what you say.

Exactly, just to add some salt to this story, "I#ll sell you the bloodstone for 100k, please be online and at the mailbox at 18:00 EMT", you rush home, log on, "nah I changed my mind, sold it for 103k." You really be ****ed of, rightly so.

To summ it up simple: Breaking you word = bad! (in game negative reputation, out of game legal consequences, since you keep talking about the society we live in).

Seller broke his word since he first offered a roll.
Buyer broke his word, since he agreed on rolling when rolled, and then betrayed the roll winner. (which I also consider worse than the sellers action)
Seller supports the buyers behaviour of "cheating" the roll he agreed upon (this again is IMHO just as worse)

[Gunga]

No, its a broken contract. Stealing is "illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

Maybe in germany, when someone takes something without paying for it, they call that person a contract breaker.




Again wrong, at least some kind of. You have to differ between property and ownership. I see we start here with legal 101. The moment you say "you can have this" and I see "fine, I like too", owership is transfered. Not yet property, since you hold it in your hands. However transfer of property to match ownership can out of the game legally be forced

No. Ownership is a difficult topic to argue, but ultimately comes down to possession. Who has it? You can argue, hire lawyers, go to court, get a gun. But basic ownership comes down to who has it.

You won the roll? Good for you.

Do you have the loot? No?

It ain't yours then.


Yes, really much to teach!

Learn something.

[Anderei]

Some (many) people just lack courtesy, compassion, generosity, and a bunch of other characteristics that would be deemed kindly or honorable. It took me a while to learn this in DDO-dom, but it is a lesson I am sorry to say that I have now learned very well.

I could try to help explain why going back on your word is bad, but honestly, for the folks that are arguing it's yours until the moment it leaves your possession, the presentation would be pointless. Sometimes, it's just as useful to paint someone's name on a rock and talk to it. The result would be the same...

E.

+1, quoting this, my last word upon this :)

[Anderei]

Sorry couldn't resist, this is sure the last.


Maybe in germany, when someone takes something without paying for it, they call that person a contract breaker.

No, you're not "Taking" something, since he has it in his possession already. He received the second loot from the wiz, but does not give his out which he gave his word for (called "exchange"). Do you understand it in this case? He *possess* it, but does not *own* it. Okay? He breaks his word, by not transferring possession of the wiz thing to the wiz, thats not stealing.

Stealing is illegally aquiring possession, you never aquire ownership by stealing. Clearer now? You cannot "steal" in DDO, physically impossible.

Promising an exchange and then breaking is bad. I see you agree upon that.
Putting something up for a roll and then breaking it, is just as bad.
Agreeing upon the roll mechanism for distribution by rolling yourself, and then go back on this to offer plat, if just as bad.




No. Ownership is a difficult topic to argue,

No, its not, its very clearly regulated, I explained all to you you learn in private law 101 in the first and second lesson. Only is complicated if you know cheese, or not want to listen :)


but ultimately comes down to possession. Who has it? You can argue, hire lawyers, go to court, get a gun. But basic ownership comes down to who has it.

See example from aboth.



You won the roll? Good for you.

Do you have the loot? No?

It ain't yours then.


See example from aboth.

[Impaqt]

Some (many) people just lack courtesy, compassion, generosity, and a bunch of other characteristics that would be deemed kindly or honorable. It took me a while to learn this in DDO-dom, but it is a lesson I am sorry to say that I have now learned very well.

I could try to help explain why going back on your word is bad, but honestly, for the folks that are arguing it's yours until the moment it leaves your possession, the presentation would be pointless. Sometimes, it's just as useful to paint someone's name on a rock and talk to it. The result would be the same...

E.


+1, quoting this, my last word upon this :)

ditto

[Hadrian]

I've put loot up for roll and had the winner of the roll sell the item instead of looting it before.

These things are going to happen if you play long enough and there isn't much you can do about it when the people you're dealing with just don't care. Just take comfort in the fact that you're a good player in a good guild and are likely to see a lot more rare loot than either of the two people involved.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

SO? They changed their mind. It still isn't your loot.

It is absolutely hypocritical to say you don't care about what someone does with their loot and then judge them and whine about what they did with their loot. That is the stark definition of hypocritical. I'm frankly surprised that so many people have a hard time understanding such a simple concept.


Absolutely. It's like you say you're going to give something away and then find out it's more valuable than you thought it was, so you sell it. That is exactly what it's like. There is nothing wrong with that either, unless you actually cheat your taxes and take the financial gain. Then you go to jail.

You'd have bit of trouble in an ethics class Gunga...

[Gunga]

You keep focusing on the Loot Gunga. Its not about the loot. Its about peoples actions and trust...It has to do with following through with what you say.

I'm with you..I understand you completely. But follow me...

You said that you don't care about what people do with their loot.

Why are you caring? That dude was acting dopey, so what? This is the first time that someone let you down with their actions?

It's annoying, but not worth the energy. A long time ago I decided that it's not mine until it's in that chest with my name on it. Save yourself the dissappointment.

[Gunga]

You'd have bit of trouble in an ethics class Gunga...

I aced ethics every year, my friend.

Do you know what ethics are? Come back with a definition when you find one.

What's ethical to me may not be ethical to you.

What's ethical to my family may not be ethical to yours.

What's ethical in our religion may not be ethical in theirs.

[Gunga]

No, its not, its very clearly regulated, I explained all to you you learn in private law 101 in the first and second lesson.

If it's so clearly regulated, then why don't you have in your possession what you claim is yours?


See example from aboth.

aboth?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I aced ethics every year, my friend.

Do you know what ethics are? Come back with a definition when you find one.

What's ethical to me may not be ethical to you.

What's ethical to my family may not be ethical to yours.

What's ethical in our religion may not be ethical in theirs.

There is truth in that. But you seem to equate "legal" with "ethical" and few people think those are one to one mappings. Most people believe failure to keep your word/honor a pledge is generally unethical. (You're a lawyer aren't you? lol)

[Gunga]

There is truth in that. But you seem to equate "legal" with "ethical" and few people think those are one to one mappings. Most people believe failure to keep your word/honor a pledge is generally unethical. (You're a lawyer aren't you? lol)

I have no loot envy. Being comfortable with the size of my own loot allows me to be genuinely happy for people who pull cool ****.

If we were in a raid, and you put a tome up for roll and then sold it to someone else, it wouldn't effect my day in the least bit.

You know why?

Your Loot is Your Loot.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I have no loot envy. Being comfortable with the size of my own loot allows me to be genuinely happy for people who pull cool ****.

If we were in a raid, and you put a tome up for roll and then sold it to someone else, it wouldn't effect my day in the least bit.

You know why?

Your Loot is Your Loot.

You just ducked the question....

[Gunga]

You just ducked the question....

Much to the chagrin of my parents, no, I'm not a lawyer.

[Anderei]

I don't know where you get the "what is yours" line. Its about two people breaking their word, and somebody complaining about this.


If it's so clearly regulated, then why don't you have in your possession what you claim is yours?

Are you talking about the game or "the society we live in"?

If its the second, yes possession and ownership are different things, it is clearly regulated. "Action of trespass" is a standard legal means to force possession to match with ownership if possessor is unwilling to.

If its in the game, its not a legal thing, it is a custom thing. Saying you aced in ethics you sure are aware of the three levels persons and society organise upon: "moral", "custom", "law". Well since others might not have aced ethice:

Moral: Personal thing, breaking it, possibly personal consequences (gnaws at one's conscience)
Custom: Society thing, breaking it: social consequences, you might get shunned and handicapped.
Law: Society thing, breaking it: enforced consequences by courts/police.

There is no law within the game, I was just referring it a lot, since you talked about "the society we live in". There is custom however, breaking your word is still very bad custom. You get black listed, and you have to live with you might even be called out on guildies. That is exactly what has happened.

The OP felt after having been betrayed (and yes he has it), and with this forum possibly wanted to make sure this is not a new kind of custom (not giving names which is nice, and would be against DDO "law" eitheway), and I hope so it sure isn't new custom!

And since the person in the OPs quote said "Business is business". He sure has a very wicked style of business, and I doubt he has any idea how a business runs. Trust and a good reputation is a major factor in business. The only cases where ripping off the other party, breaking your word, etc. is theoretical "optimal" is when you are sure to never see the other one again, or you accept to never be able to deal with him/her again. This is hardly the case, except maybe the carpet sellers in a tourists trap.

As others have pointed out, in this game you will likely run with the same people again and again, especially at the cap. I doubt the 150kk or the one item was worth it having your name ruined in front of 10 other people, but if its worth for them, yes its their, its in their inventory, nothing going to change that.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Much to the chagrin of my parents, no, I'm not a lawyer.

And in general, would you say it is unethical to break your pledge to others?

[Tarackian]

Ouch...that is Dirk Dastardly ****........sry for your misfortune. I would certainly report them to their guild leader and onto the DNP list they would go....




I'm an big advocate of your raid loot is yours to do what you want with it.

But when you put an Item up for roll.... Then 4 People Roll on it. (I did win the roll btw)

and THEN someone offer a sum of plat in voice chat..... And then the Person that pulls it Passes it over to the person who rolled low...

Thats just plain rude.

[Gunga]

And in general, would you say it is unethical to break your pledge to others?

Yes. In general.

But, this isn't general. This is really specific:

1. The guy did not swear on his life no whammies that he would pass this loot over to the highest roller. I bet he just said "roll on it".

2. It's his loot. If, in this dumb raid full of dumbies, a dumby actually felt the need to pay for something that they could get themselves by running 20 times, why not let the dumby who already put it up for roll take the other dumbies money?

3. It's not your loot. Get over it.

[Gunga]

breaking your word is still very bad custom. You get black listed, and you have to live with you might even be called out on guildies. That is exactly what has happened.

The OP felt after having been betrayed (and yes he has it), and with this forum possibly wanted to make sure this is not a new kind of custom (not giving names which is nice, and would be against DDO "law" eitheway), and I hope so it sure isn't new custom!

There's a seriousness, an entitlement you have over a person's fleeting remark. As if no one is ever allowed to make a bad decision or have a momentary social accident in their pants.

Is anyone allowed to change their mind in Germany? (No comment)

In America, you can change your mind. Watch this:

Hey, Anderei the Forum Guy from Germany, you can have my House! Roll on it!

On second thought, here Coldest. You can have it. See ya, Anderei the Forum Guy From Germany.




And since the person in the OPs quote said "Business is business". He sure has a very wicked style of business, and I doubt he has any idea how a business runs. Trust and a good reputation is a major factor in business. The only cases where ripping off the other party, breaking your word, etc. is theoretical "optimal" is when you are sure to never see the other one again, or you accept to never be able to deal with him/her again. This is hardly the case, except maybe the carpet sellers in a tourists trap.

As others have pointed out, in this game you will likely run with the same people again and again, especially at the cap. I doubt the 150kk or the one item was worth it having your name ruined in front of 10 other people, but if its worth for them, yes its their, its in their inventory, nothing going to change that.

I can see how a lot of petty middle management types might be perturbed by this.

The CEO would probably tell the whining middle manager who decried foul play to grow a set or he's hiring the other guy.

Let me leave you with this:

The size of a man can be measured by what angers him.

[Lewcipher]

Let me leave you with this:

The size of a man can be measured by what angers him.

I thought the size of a man could be measured with a tape measure.

German dude: it's not stealing, it's virtual loot theft.


Impact, as always if you're running with AtD and my guildies can't use 'em, they are yours first. Then they get put up for roll.

[Krag]

And in general, would you say it is unethical to break your pledge to others?

Does it really matter if this kind of behavior is ethical or not?
He does not bother to justify his decision to ignore the roll, you don't need to justify your decesion to blacklist him and do your best to prevent him grouping with your friends and guildies.

P.S. **** homini lupus est.

[Lorz]

Yeah,

Well when i put something up for roll it goes to the highest roller. Yes i might limit it to clerics or casters but i make that clear. I dont go back on my commitments...which is what that is when you say...X is up for roll. A few night ago in a shroud somebody needed a shard i had put up for roll 90% of us where guild...but we do not leave others in group out of rolls....put it up for roll and it was between a guildy and a pugger....pugger won..and got the item.....


The pugger i think was in shock that he would get it over a guildie...but my guildie woulda just passed it to him. I know him..hes an honest guy.

I dont care what you do with your loot. But dont offer it for roll unless you plan to honor it. I dont much care to run with liars and indian-givers as they say.

[Anderei]

Is anyone allowed to change their mind in Germany? (No comment)

When its business and a contract was closed, you have to compensate for damages, in germany as well as the U.S.



Hey, Anderei the Forum Guy from Germany, you can have my House! Roll on it!

On second thought, here Coldest. You can have it. See ya, Anderei the Forum Guy From Germany.


Well,
a) legally there is a difference if you make something in a joke or talking serious. I bet before court you could make a case this wasn't serious and you could get away with it.

b) Actually "Anderei" is a pseudonym, so bad comparison. But if you got to my house, and infront of several witnesses say fully serious, "[My real name], I give you my house at [address] in exchange for this pencil here" and I say "okay thanks", than this is legally binding. And if you change your mind, you would have to see legal consequences, if I were a prick.

c) we're talking about "the society we live in", which you referred, and yes breaking on an agreed contract for better oppurtunity is not only frowned upon from a judges site of view.

You roll for something, you loose, you offer plat. to get it nevertheless, you're on my blacklist.
You put something up for roll, somebody does just mentioned act, you support this, you're on my blacklist.


The size of a man can be measured by what angers him.

If this means apathy and ignorance, I'm fine to be a short man by this rule then.

[Gunga]

I thought the size of a man could be measured with a tape measure.

You only need a tape measure if you start from the middle of your back.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Once you make a ruling you should stick with it. If you want to see if you can sell it then that's fine, but don't say roll and then back out and sell. I'm with ya Impaqt.

[Gunga]

When its business and a contract was closed, you have to compensate for damages, in germany as well as the U.S.

How is that remotely connected to what has happened here?

Business?

Contract?

Reroll.



b) Actually "Anderei" is a pseudonym, so bad comparison. But if you got to my house, and infront of several witnesses say fully serious, "[My real name], I give you my house at [address] in exchange for this pencil here" and I say "okay thanks", than this is legally binding. And if you change your mind, you would have to see legal consequences,

No.



if I were a prick.

The jury is still out.



c) we're talking about "the society we live in", which you referred, and yes breaking on an agreed contract for better oppurtunity is not only frowned upon from a judges site of view.

You'd have to have some compelling damages there to keep a judge from kicking you out for wasting his time.




You roll for something, you loose, you offer plat. to get it nevertheless, you're on my blacklist.
You put something up for roll, somebody does just mentioned act, you support this, you're on my blacklist.

:rolleyes: Sure thing, Mr Serious. Can you PM me a list of your alts so I know to publicly exclude you from any loot I'm rolling off?

[Lewcipher]

You only need a tape measure if you start from the middle of your back.


Bastage! That was good.

[Anderei]

How is that remotely connected to what has happened here?

You're talking about "capitalism" and the "society we live in", not I. Also the cited person in OP said "business is business" to justify his betrayal.



No.


No.


You'd have to have some compelling damages there to keep a judge from kicking you out for wasting his time.

No. In "capitalism" (you referred) sticking to contracts is one of the highest values the whole system is based upon. Or "pacta sunt servanda" as the romans said.



:rolleyes: Sure thing, Mr Serious. Can you PM me a list of your alts so I know to publicly exclude you from any loot I'm rolling off?

Why? I wouldn't count on your word eitherway, seems not to mean much for you. I'd like to party with people I like and respect, not for dodgy, opportunistic weasels.

[Lewcipher]

Wrong, you can create contracts verbally, which you are doing when a) You're offering something b) the person agrees upon it. In our society you will be forced to fulfill contracts.

So, if you are offering your house under conditions X and person b agrees with that and fullfills conditions X, person b can force you over the deed by court.


You better have a few witnesses that weren't his friends. All person A has to do is say "no I didn't" . Verbal contracts are pretty much ignored by courts these days. As Gunga says "No."

[Anderei]

You better have a few witnesses that weren't his friends. All person A has to do is say "no I didn't" . Verbal contracts are pretty much ignored by courts these days. As Gunga says "No."

Right, but thats just a question of provableness, not of its trueness in principle.

[Lewcipher]

Right, but thats just a question of provableness, not of its trueness in principle.


Good luck with that, rules lawyer. Cuz we all know OJ was innocent for sure.

[Anderei]

As I said, if I cannot proof it, my bad, but that doesn't change the principle.

But just for example:

Judge: "Gunga, did you really offer Anderei your house?"
Gunga: "Yes I did, but I now changed my mind, you know, people change their minds."

Then the case would be set. Nothing about, "you cannot proof verbal contracts" in that case.

For the game, go back on your word and land on the blacklist.

"Trick me one, shame on you
Trick me twice, shame on me"

[Lewcipher]

As I said, if I cannot proof it, my bad, but that doesn't change the principle.

But just for example:

Judge: "Gunga, did you really offer Anderei your house?"
Gunga: "Yes I did, but I now changed my mind, you know, people change their minds."

Then the case would be set. Nothing about, "you cannot proof verbal contracts" in that case.

For the game, go back on your word and land on the blacklist.

"Trick me one, shame on you
Trick me twice, shame on me"

You were comparing raid loot to court.

If someone did to me the same thing they did to Impaqt, I probably wouldn't run with them again.

If I were in court, I would deny everything, raise Johnny Cochran from the dead, and have him defend me.

[Delt]

No, its a broken contract. Stealing is "illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.".

There is no legally enforcable contract without consideration, in almost all sensible legal systems. Impaqt offered nothing.

And even if breach of contract was feasible, there would have to be damages. There were none - Impaqt lost nothing.

Perhaps instead of pretending to be some sort of law student on the internet and posting poor analogies, you should study up for real. :rolleyes:

[Ministry]

...

If someone did to me the same thing they did to Impaqt, I probably wouldn't run with them again...

Hey bro... you know what's funny... my guildy let me know who the bad guy / weasel was in this scenario and it wouldn't surprise you for a second who it is.

I've seen the name pop up for a while, leading different runs and something made me not ever try and join his team, and obviously never will.

:)

[Anderei]

You were comparing raid loot to court.

Yes, but it started from the other side, "business is business" as Impaq wrote that guy said, who was clearly making an analogy how he tought things run outside the game. And an argument who stated going back on your word is normal in "capitalism" which I proofed is the other way around.



If someone did to me the same thing they did to Impaqt, I probably wouldn't run with them again.


Yes, 100% agreement!



If I were in court, I would deny everything, raise Johnny Cochran from the dead, and have him defend me.

Don't worry, I wouldn't be that person that would drag you to court anyway, even if you offered me your house.

[Lewcipher]

Hey bro... you know what's funny... my guildy let me know who the bad guy / weasel was in this scenario and it wouldn't surprise you for a second who it is.

I've seen the name pop up for a while, leading different runs and something made me not ever try and join his team, and obviously never will.

:)


Can you pm it to me bro? Mainly because I know how laid back Impaqt is. This would torque me off as well.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Can you pm it to me bro? Mainly because I know how laid back Impaqt is. This would torque me off as well.
ditto

[phalaeo]

you Were Comparing Raid Loot To Court.


Lol.

[Lewcipher]

Yes, but it started from the other side, "business is business" as Impaq wrote that guy said, who was clearly making an analogy how he tought things run outside the game. And an argument who stated going back on your word is normal in "capitalism" which I proofed is the other way around.



Yes, 100% agreement!



Don't worry, I wouldn't be that person that would drag you to court anyway, even if you offered me your house.


I think Impaqt was saying how the guy shouldn't have offered it for roll if he was going to sell it anyway. He could have just said it was for sale.

I have a feeling this person will end up with his plat and few people to run with.

[Anderei]

There is no legally enforcable contract without consideration, in almost all sensible legal systems. Impaqt offered nothing.

And even if breach of contract was feasible, there would have to be damages. There were none - Impaqt lost nothing.

Perhaps instead of pretending to be some sort of law student on the internet and posting poor analogies, you should study up for real. :rolleyes:

You are correct, (note how in the example above I wrote the exchange of the house for a pencil), but even if you break on endowments, you may have to pay damages when the other party made arrangements already trusting on the endowment. And in the example I gave in that case, the wiz gave a loot item to the fighter, who refuses to return the other, this is breach of contract, not "stealing"). (I know neither was the case in impaqt), and no I didn't start the house analogy, which I agree upon is bad.

And yes,I would also appreciate it, if we could put this whole house/legal analogy to rest. I had some legal classes, but yes IANAL, and no not an expert.

[Xyfiel]

Moral of the story:
Judo's mom, her loot is everyone's loot(and it won't cost you 100k)!

[Judo]

Moral of the story:
Judo's mom, her loot is everyone's loot(and it won't cost you 100k)!

fudge

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Does it really matter if this kind of behavior is ethical or not?
He does not bother to justify his decision to ignore the roll, you don't need to justify your decesion to blacklist him and do your best to prevent him grouping with your friends and guildies.

P.S. **** homini lupus est.

At this point the discussion is just theoretical ethics.