...Ranged Kensai?

[Lothaire]

So I realize that this is most likely something that nobody does, for good reason.

If I want to roll a ranged fighter, I might as well roll a ranger, blah blah blah - and yet, I wonder, why /not/?
Is it possible to rock a ranged kensai? I haven't rolled a fighter at all, so I don't know how the enhancement works, not really, nor do I know of any weapons or items or sets or anything of the sort past level 10.

I've got me a level 7 rogue, and that's about it - and maybe it's a terrible vantage point to look at fighters, and imagine one running around with a bow.

Is it possible/viable to rock one of these?
If so, I'd be entirely willing to listen to any suggestions. I'm also f2p, so if the lack of 32-pt builds and WF or anything else is going to send this build to the crapper, I suppose I'll just have to deal with that.

I've got access to Drow, which made me wonder about a super-high dex bow user...that wasn't also a ranger...but then again, I suppose there's got to be something behind how I haven't seen any bow-fighters.

Thoughts?

[Goldeneye]

Watch out: you've opened a can of worms. Ranged combat us much much less effective then Melee.

The problem with Kensai Ranged is that:

You miss out on the ranger capstone (though broken it might be fixed some day????)
You miss out on higher levels of Arcane Archer
You miss out on actually being and effective damage-dealer (HINT: ranged comes no where close to prestiged melee classes)

[rimble]

Elf, Arcane Archer AND Kensai (18 Fighter/1 Bard/1 Barbarian-or-Ranger). Not as unusual as you think.

Of course, ranged sucks, and so on and so forth. No need to max Dex (but get to a 19 if you want Improved Precise Shot, so probably a starting 17), you'll have plenty of Hit. Max Strength.

[Lothaire]

Hah, I'd suspected as much - thatit would be a can of worms, I mean.

Yes, I realize ranger damage isn't as good or consistent as melee.
That said, of course, I think it'd be terribly amusing from a purely aesthetic point of view, if nothing else.

He'd never be max dps, anywhere, I think - But there's something to be said about unusual-ity points, no?

Especially with all the cookie-cutters running around these days.

[Goldeneye]

In my philosophy: unless you liked disappointing your parties, why would you consciously make a ranged character.

[Visty]

i like the frenzied berserker version more then the kensai one cause 19-20/x6 >> 18-20/3

but its doable, yes

[Delacroix21]

Could try and elf Barb 18/1rng/1bard for frenzied berserker +arcane archer. The build also gives you a purpose when multishot is on cooldown (ie put down that bow and go 2 handed). Multishot + 6d6 vicious + huge barb strength + Lit 2 bow + arcane archer arrows of slaying + x5 crits with your bow= a TON of ranged damage.


Yet despite all those numbers, drop the bow when many shot is on cooldown.;)

[Visty]

Could try and elf Barb 18/1fighter/1bard for frenzied berserker +arcane archer. The build also gives you a purpose when multishot is on cooldown (ie put down that bow and go 2 handed). Multishot + huge barb strength + Lit 2 bow + arcane archer arrows of slaying + x6 crits with your bow and +15% attackspeed= a TON of ranged damage.


fixed for you :)

[Aesop]

In my philosophy: unless you liked disappointing your parties, why would you consciously make a ranged character.

The vain hope that someday Ranged is worth a ****... that's why I do it


I'm working on 18 Fighter 2 Bard. Maxing out Diplomacy and UMD

Diplomacy to ditch aggro on the tanks

UMD... well becaues its UMD... (and for certain levels Flame Arrow could be fun)

Picking up most if not all of Arcane Archer and Full Kensai

Between the two I figure on being "almost" effective.

The downside is no Evasion and no PrE for my TWF Melee abilities... other than the Power Surge and Haste Boosts of kensai

yes full twf line... I think I'm shy on getting the IC: Melee Weapon X ... but other than that I'm looking forward to the character

You do lose out on Ranger Capstone... which stinks ... actually the whole capstone concept stinks. Huge power Boost at level 20... but only if you pure class... welcome to bad idea central. I understand the pure classes needing something decent... but full out over powreed is bad... especially when you can't get it anywhere else.


Aesop

[rimble]

Could try and elf Barb 18/1rng/1bard for frenzied berserker +arcane archer. The build also gives you a purpose when multishot is on cooldown (ie put down that bow and go 2 handed). Multishot + 6d6 vicious + huge barb strength + Lit 2 bow + arcane archer arrows of slaying + x5 crits with your bow= a TON of ranged damage.

The FB vicious damage is only on melee weapons.

[Lothaire]

...Frenzied arcane archer?

This is getting better and better ;D

Since everyone's tossing out ideas for arcane archer this and arcane archer that, though - uhm. Anyone mind explaining just what that is? I'd /thought/ it was a PrE, but...if you can pick it up with levels in bard, I'm no longer sure.

Is it just a set of feats/enhancements, or something of the sort?

[Visty]

...Frenzied arcane archer?

This is getting better and better ;D

Since everyone's tossing out ideas for arcane archer this and arcane archer that, though - uhm. Anyone mind explaining just what that is? I'd /thought/ it was a PrE, but...if you can pick it up with levels in bard, I'm no longer sure.

Is it just a set of feats/enhancements, or something of the sort?

it is a pre, you need either ranger levels or elven levels for it, so pure ranger or pure elf (means no warforged splash for the immunities)
the bard levels are just there to enable the sp enhancement which is a prerequesit of arcane archer

[Aesop]

Arcane Archer is a Ranger PrE and also an Elven Racial PrE.

One of the Prerequisites is one of the following: Wizard Energy of the Scholar 1, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded 1, Bard Energy of Music 1, Mental Toughness, and now the Sorcerer Reincarnate Feat that I can't recall the name of.

1 Bard level will do the job and give you access to full ranks in UMD (which is a powerful skill) and Diplomacy... which makes tanks happy... well I like to think it does

Note the Other Races will be getting Racial PrEs as well...Most will be tied to the Dragon Marks ... though Warforged is theoretically getting Warforged Juggernaut and Drow is getting ... some assassin like one I can't recall the name of right now


Aesop

[Lothaire]

Huh. Alright, then - thanks for all the quick replies, guys!

Seems like I still have a bit of thinking and planning to do ;D

[Bardicus]

Imbue Slaying arrows costs 40sp? 1 level of bard lets you imbue what once maybe twice per rest? Hope the imbue ability lasts a long time or you are going to either going to be shelling out for pots or need a epic spell storing ring or bauble.

[grodon9999]

Imbue Slaying arrows costs 40sp? 1 level of bard lets you imbue what once maybe twice per rest? Hope the imbue ability lasts a long time or you are going to either going to be shelling out for pots or need a epic spell storing ring or bauble.

It lasts until dispelled or you rest (or die).

[Visty]

Imbue Slaying arrows costs 40sp? 1 level of bard lets you imbue what once maybe twice per rest? Hope the imbue ability lasts a long time or you are going to either going to be shelling out for pots or need a epic spell storing ring or bauble.

what the one befor me said
also you can have an so item equipped also at the beginning of the quest, use the imbue and swap it out.
or maybe you have a shroud crafted +chaskills item then you get more sp too

[Talon_Moonshadow]

As the owner of a pre-Kensai Ftr Archer, I can give a little insight here.

The problem I ran onto was the one-trick-pony.
(That and predudice from other players)

My guy could do ranged very well. But that is all he could do.

What do you do when monsters run up to you and melee you?

it's actually hard to explain, but doing only one thing well, is not a good choice in this game.

especially when that one thing is not what everyone else is doing.

The other problem was until I got Improved Crit Ranged I was actually doing more DPS when I meleed....with zero melee feats! Than I was with my bow...and a whole bunch of Ranged feats.

That was very depressing.

but after lvl 8, I saw a great boost in my power. And the build became fun finally.

My next challenge was the Shroud raid. With evasion! I had to hide behind a ranging Ranger and get her to take fireballs for me.

I guess I should add any quest with Devils. That teleport right to you. So you quickly lose the best benefit from ranging....(which is range)


Anyway, from my experiance with an Archer Ftr, I determined that a Pure Ranger is a much better char.

The Ftr might do more ranged DPS, but he is too limited in other ways for my taste.

While a Ranger can be good at sooo many things, including archery.


Let me also note that the only feats I saw that gave me significant increase in damage were: Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Improved Precise Shot, and Improved Crit Ranged.

Of which the first three all Rangers get for free.

The Wep Spec feats were nice, and added up. But by themselves were only a small increase in damage.

Kensei may offer more though.

As soon as I get the points I plan to Lesser reincarnate my guy and fix him so he can take Kensei III eventually.

But he's not what I want as my main Char.

I'm much happier with Rangers.

[phillun]

18 ftr/1 rngr/1 wis-elf
rngr for bow str(free feat)
wis for mental toughness(bonus feat) one requirement for AA
then pleanty of feats with ftr to take ranged feats and GTWF kopesh
end up with about 260 sp without sp item

[Petrovskis]

I have been thinking about a ranged fighter, although different to the above.

my plan was

Fighter 12, Ranger 6, Rogue 2 - Elf

Str 16, dex 18, con 12, int 9, wis 13, cha 8

I'm not sure where to put level ups though, maybe 3 strength, 2 dex?

Plan was to take all the ranged feats, make use of the ranger levels to help with that, and GTWF and both IC ranged and piercing. Char has full UMD skills, decent balance and jump which is always nice. Makes use of kensai II and greater weapon spec for extra damage. The two FE are nice as well. Elf obviously for the arcane archer.

However, would a pure ranger be better?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Here's a build i put together a while ago - didnt get very far with it as i got distracted by a couple of other characters that i was having a lot of fun with.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

bow kensai
Level 20 Chaotic Good Elf Male
(18 Fighter \ 1 Ranger \ 1 Wizard)
Hit Points: 294
Spell Points: 140
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 13
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 17 22
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged Weapons


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting




The wizard level is to qualify for Arcane Archer, and i figured that the ability to use a few buff wands plus self-cast shield could be useful, particularly at lower levels. The ranger level let me get bow strength from the start, plus access to a few other wands including cures. Dragonmarks are primarily for Displacement to aid in avoiding enemy missile attacks, or for increasing survivability on the occasions that melee is required.

I left out the enhancements as i havent gotten round to getting the latest version of the character creator to play with the requirements for Elven Arcane Archer in addition to Kensai, but i figured the kensai bonuses (increased damage, crit range & power surge for even more damage) would be good for increasing DPS output to a meaningful level (even if not at the level of a decently put together melee).

[Cyr]

i like the frenzied berserker version more then the kensai one cause 19-20/x6 >> 18-20/3

but its doable, yes

Feats are the issue with FB 3 archers. Assuming best make up 18 barb/1 ranger/ 1 arcane. 1 PA/ 2 Cleave (FB reqs), 3 rapid shot, 4 weapon focus : ranged, 5 point blank shot, 6 many shot, 7 ?. I would say 7 toughness. Anyways, this break down shows the main issue with a 18 FB archer. They can not get improved precise shot making their total DPS output in most cases fairly low. Also, they either have to choice between precise shot (so they can accurately ping their target) or alot more HP from toughness.

[Visty]

Feats are the issue with FB 3 archers. Assuming best make up 18 barb/1 ranger/ 1 arcane. 1 PA/ 2 Cleave (FB reqs), 3 rapid shot, 4 weapon focus : ranged, 5 point blank shot, 6 many shot, 7 ?. I would say 7 toughness. Anyways, this break down shows the main issue with a 18 FB archer. They can not get improved precise shot making their total DPS output in most cases fairly low. Also, they either have to choice between precise shot (so they can accurately ping their target) or alot more HP from toughness.

most important fights are single boss fights anyway, IPS is way overrated imo

[Cyr]

most important fights are single boss fights anyway, IPS is way overrated imo

Agreed most important fights are single boss fights, however, if you building an archer your dps is going to be inferior in single boss fights anyways by virtue of having that bow out.

[Ithrani]

Elf Kensai, with pure fighter levels will be able to access arcane archer enhancement line as well as have alot of DPS when compared to most other bow users. Kensai can get huge STR, bow strength is a feat so no reason to be a ranger at all. The fighter capstone is 10% more speed with ALL weapons, crit range increase works on bows, maybe better then expected, and the 30% haste boost from the fighter line means more speed on the shots as well, all contributing to more DPS. With the right build a pure fighter elf bowsai can out DPS a bow build ranger in those instances where it matters most, short fight end game raid bosses.

However, with that said, yeah Turbine really needs to increase the bows rate of attack to match the swings of melees. Until then, sadly bow DPS is not that effective overall, my bowbarian with crit rage loves seeing 4 crits with manyshot hit for over 150 base damage each, but once manyshot runs out, his DPS is pretty much junk.

[rimble]

Elf Kensai, with pure fighter levels will be able to access arcane archer enhancement line as well

No, they can't.

[Cyr]

No, they can't.

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

[gavagai]

And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

And it would be better to let a non-caster take arcane archer, and subsequently lack the SP to cast imbue arrow because... ?

[Cyr]

And it would be better to let a non-caster take arcane archer, and subsequently lack the SP to cast imbue arrow because... ?

Actually the better answer would be that all characters should have a base 0 SP pool. This pool gets additions normally from all things. That way mental toughness would grant some base SP and various items in game would grant more. This would be enough to use your imbue arrows.

Remember that it's not like everyone is running off to make an AA because they are so OP that this would break anything :)

[Visty]

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

not quite true, you can have a lvl20 fighter with the past life feat, tolero confirmed that

though you will have 0sp as the past life feat only gives a bonus to current sp just like items and gives nothing if you dont have any sp by yourself so you couldnt use any stance

but its possible to be a pure fighter AA :)

[Nuckin]

Have thought about this myself, liked the idea of the Kensaii AA but still believe that a pure ranger is better especially when the capstone is fixed (didnt even know it wasn't working but don't have a pure ranger yet) Rangers get all the ranged feats ur gonna want for free, plus give u all the twf fighting feats as well so if u build it right can be a decent melee.. or atleast have the feats to swap out to 2 vorpals when needed...

Why was frenzied berserker even mentioned? Besides the huge feat deficit.... the vicious doesn't work on ranged weapons.... just weird it was mentioned as an alternative....

[Cyr]

not quite true, you can have a lvl20 fighter with the past life feat, tolero confirmed that

though you will have 0sp as the past life feat only gives a bonus to current sp just like items and gives nothing if you dont have any sp by yourself so you couldnt use any stance

but its possible to be a pure fighter AA :)

Oh I was not aware that the feat was selectable. Thanks for the clarification... Not that anyone ever should do that with the non-existent SP pool for a pure fighter.

[Visty]

Why was frenzied berserker even mentioned? Besides the huge feat deficit.... the vicious doesn't work on ranged weapons.... just weird it was mentioned as an alternative....

+3 critmultiplier and massive str maybe?

[Nuckin]

the +3 crit multiplier is nice but not compared to the benefits u would gain from the feats lost by going barb, along with everything else...

Rangers get a nice list of self buffs and can self heal really well... They also get the twf feats for free.... allowing them to fulfill more roles then a FB could.... and the str difference between a barb AA and a ranger/fighter wouldn't be big enuf to sway it in favor of the FB at all... I Would say the Kensaii bow dmg along with the +1 threat range out weighs the FB by far and u get far more feats... Pretty much Rangers/Fighters will make the best AA's although I have seen a decent AA bard build before

[Ithrani]

Let me elaborate on this so people can understand why. The AA PrE requires either mental toughness, a past life feat, or one of list of enhancements that you can only get if you are certain spell casting class. To get mental toughness or the past life feat you must have spell points to start with. This effectively requires that you have some class in your build that has spell points to access AA. And yes, this is a dumb design choice.

Well........ I am wrong, someone pointed out the past life feat in another post, but I was not considering that. I had thought one could take mental toughness with no spell points. However I disagree that it is a dumb design choice, Arcane Archers are required in PnP to have spell casting abilities, effectively, needing spell points. The dumb design choice and I am sure there are 0 people out that who can honestly disagree is ranged combat; it is severely broken and under powered, it can be useful, it can be effective, but it will not compare to melee TWF or THF until it is fixed.

And for those people who think DDO is the end all be all to rules and balance, an Arcane Archer in a PnP group with rapid shot can do as much Damage in a single round as a TWF or THF. If you think that TWF and THF should always do more damage then an ranger specced ranger, fighter or arcane archer you have never fully explored the possibilities with the core 3.5 system. It is a matter of attacks per round, archers can get 1 extra attack per round with rapid shot meaning 1 more attack than all melee classes except for monks, also when moving melees get 1 attack, with manyshot you can get up to 4 shots, that's 3 more then the melee, despite only 1 chance to critical. But because in DDO the speed of the animation effects the number of attacks one gets in 5-6 seconds, archers always are beat out of the number of attacks they should get. The most simple fix is to speed up the animation to be equal too melee swings and faster the melee swings when one has rapid shot. But my guess is that they would have to change the combat code for ranged combat, separate from the melee code and alter the ranged animation as well and we all know how great the Dev team is at getting right on top of those things. That would take time, that is rather spent making easter egg hunters and skating games.