32pt, WF Barb, TWF, Do i really need Toughness?

[Phantomizer]

Went with 16 Str, 16 Dex (planning to eat a +1 dex tome so i can later on pick Oversized TWF, Improved TWF and Greater TWF) and 18 Con. The remaining 2 points i had, i randomly dropped into Wisdom for whatever good it would do, i was initially going to drop them into Intelligence for the extra skill points, but i already had enough points to drop into Balance, Jump and Swim, so i didn't go with that.

Feats:
Lvl1 - Power Attack.
Lvl3 - TWF.
Lvl6 - Cleave.
Lvl9 - Improved TWF.
Lvl12 - Greater TWF.

Thats as far as i got, what i'm looking at is some advice since i'm trying to improve upon the 28pt Barb i have which is lvl 17 atm and i made a few mistakes here and there. I just created this char and thats as far as the feat plans go. What i'm interested in is some advice, do i REALLY need Tougness? I could probably make it Toughness, PA, Cleave and than work my way up the TWF feats, but than i'ld be stuck ages before i got to where i want with this char. The other question was, i'm planning to go dual Battleaxes here (i know i could have gone with something else, Khopeshes for betters crits and all that, but Battleaxes is the way i want to go) should i also go for Oversized TWF?

While i'm at it, does the DR Enhancements Warforged get stack with Barb DR?

Thanks!

[ArichValtrahn]

The eternal debate. Toughness vs Stunning Blow.

Allow it to rekindle anew in this thread.

Threads to reference:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229422
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=199947

[tihocan]

Swim, eh :eek:

I'd take OTWF over Toughness. Dual-wielding non-light weapons with power attack actually means you'll miss on some of the high level stuff. You're shooting yourself in the foot by going for battleaxe though.

[Gelmir87]

In all honesty, OSTWF only takes off the -2 Attack Penalty for wielding a heavy offhand. Other than fighting in EPIC, you should have no problem hitting anything with a STR Barb. If you do, I'd consider the off putting chance that you need a REROLL!!!

Also, don't forget that Toughness adds 23 HP on top of Enhancements.

23 + 40(Barb Tough) + 40(WF Tough{With WF CON}) = 103 EXTRA HP... Can't really hurt.

And no, WF DR does not stack with Barb DR.

WF DR = ?/Adamantine
Barb DR = ?/- {- means no bypass}

[Rheebus]

Every toon I have has toughness. Why? In order to play this game you must kill monsters. Dead characters can't kill monsters. More hp = more dead monsters. :D If you can kill monsters better with fewer hp and something else, be my guest. When you get one-shotted by a trap or large spell, don't come crying to me. I also don't think that nanny clerics are fun to play so I don't ask anyone in my groups to play that role. If I don't have a dedicated healer, I may need more hp.

Whether you should take OTWF instead of toughtness, I say no. If you are dead set on battle axes, just put a hand axe in your off hand. It's light and is basically the same weapon with a slightly lower damage die. And you will have more HP! Yea! If you were wielding khopeshes, I might suggest taking OTWF because the khopesh is a much better weapon than any light slasher. You would have to spend yet another feat to do khopeshes...probably not worth it in your build. I agree that the choice of battle axe is a deliberate GMIP from level 1. It will be a lot easier to find good battleaxes, but the best battleaxes will be completely outmatched by just moderately good khopeshes/rapiers/scimitars and even kukris! I think it is admirable of you to want to wield a weapon that is different. I think it is terrible that some weapons are so GIMPed while others are so UBER. They should be more balanced, but the fact is that they aren't. It will be fun in the begining to be different, but it might get old when you see other characters out DPSing you starting around level 8. That gap will only increase as you level. By the time you are running the shroud, you may be frowning at those UBER axes when you compare them to the scimitars of your group mates. At high levels, it is all about the crit range. With a keen shroud weapon, that doubled crit range makes the difference. The damage die also becomes insignificant when you factor in enhancement and str bonuses to damage. The d8 is small when you think about a str of 40 (+15) and an enhancement of +5. d8+20 (24.5 average) is about the same as d6+20 (23.5 average) or d4+20 (22.5 average). The x3 multiplier is awesome, but when you combine a large crit range and a x3 multiplier on the khopesh, you have an UBER weapon that makes all others want to cry themselves to sleep, especially the battleaxe.

Battleaxe
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Handaxe
Damage and Type: 1d6
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Scimitar
Damage and Type: 1d6 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

Khopesh
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 19-20/x3 (keen 17-20)

Kukri
Damage and Type: 1d4 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

[Phantomizer]

The eternal debate. Toughness vs Stunning Blow.

Allow it to rekindle anew in this thread.

Threads to reference:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229422
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=199947

Toughness at lvl 18? don't you get extra HP at every lvl when you pick toughness? doesn't taking toughness at lvl 18 kinda kill the reason to take toughness by only giving you the initial Toughness bonus plus the extra you get at lvl 19 and 20?


In all honesty, OSTWF only takes off the -2 Attack Penalty for wielding a heavy offhand. Other than fighting in EPIC, you should have no problem hitting anything with a STR Barb. If you do, I'd consider the off putting chance that you need a REROLL!!!

Also, don't forget that Toughness adds 23 HP on top of Enhancements.

23 + 40(Barb Tough) + 40(WF Tough{With WF CON}) = 103 EXTRA HP... Can't really hurt.

And no, WF DR does not stack with Barb DR.

WF DR = ?/Adamantine
Barb DR = ?/- {- means no bypass}



Every toon I have has toughness. Why? In order to play this game you must kill monsters. Dead characters can't kill monsters. More hp = more dead monsters. :D If you can kill monsters better with fewer hp and something else, be my guest. When you get one-shotted by a trap or large spell, don't come crying to me. I also don't think that nanny clerics are fun to play so I don't ask anyone in my groups to play that role. If I don't have a dedicated healer, I may need more hp.

Whether you should take OTWF instead of toughtness, I say no. If you are dead set on battle axes, just put a hand axe in your off hand. It's light and is basically the same weapon with a slightly lower damage die. And you will have more HP! Yea! If you were wielding khopeshes, I might suggest taking OTWF because the khopesh is a much better weapon than any light slasher. You would have to spend yet another feat to do khopeshes...probably not worth it in your build. I agree that the choice of battle axe is a deliberate GMIP from level 1. It will be a lot easier to find good battleaxes, but the best battleaxes will be completely outmatched by just moderately good khopeshes/rapiers/scimitars and even kukris! I think it is admirable of you to want to wield a weapon that is different. I think it is terrible that some weapons are so GIMPed while others are so UBER. They should be more balanced, but the fact is that they aren't. It will be fun in the begining to be different, but it might get old when you see other characters out DPSing you starting around level 8. That gap will only increase as you level. By the time you are running the shroud, you may be frowning at those UBER axes when you compare them to the scimitars of your group mates. At high levels, it is all about the crit range. With a keen shroud weapon, that doubled crit range makes the difference. The damage die also becomes insignificant when you factor in enhancement and str bonuses to damage. The d8 is small when you think about a str of 40 (+15) and an enhancement of +5. d8+20 (24.5 average) is about the same as d6+20 (23.5 average) or d4+20 (22.5 average). The x3 multiplier is awesome, but when you combine a large crit range and a x3 multiplier on the khopesh, you have an UBER weapon that makes all others want to cry themselves to sleep, especially the battleaxe.

Battleaxe
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Handaxe
Damage and Type: 1d6
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Scimitar
Damage and Type: 1d6 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

Khopesh
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 19-20/x3 (keen 17-20)

Kukri
Damage and Type: 1d4 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

Thats alot more info that i was ever expecting and greatly appreciate it. I think i'll be picking toughness over Oversized TWF and going with the handaxe on the off-hand, i like that idea.

I do like to be original, i frown on the "Drizzt" and "Zaknafein" knock-offs out there, i don't care that much, you like it? enjoy it? go for it, but i prefer to stick to originality instead of being "yet aother khopesh dual-wielder" or "yet another <insert popular weapon here> dual wielder". And yes, despite the sheer ridiculousness, i'll make that Quarterstaff wielding Barb.....someday:D

Anyways, TYVM for all the info, much appreciated.

[tihocan]

In all honesty, OSTWF only takes off the -2 Attack Penalty for wielding a heavy offhand. Other than fighting in EPIC, you should have no problem hitting anything with a STR Barb. If you do, I'd consider the off putting chance that you need a REROLL!!!
In my experience, some stuff in the Inspired Quarter can actually be missed on a TWF barb with no OTWF (that's without the very high end gear like a full ToD set). I wouldn't say that OTWF is worthless, especially if you're going to run Epic content.
That being said, it's probably best in such a situation to go with a light weapon in off-hand if not going dual khopesh (so kukri for slash, light pick for pierce, and handaxe if you insist on being weird ;))

[rimble]

Toughness at lvl 18? don't you get extra HP at every lvl when you pick toughness? doesn't taking toughness at lvl 18 kinda kill the reason to take toughness by only giving you the initial Toughness bonus plus the extra you get at lvl 19 and 20?

It's entirely retroactive. Doesn't matter when you take it.

[boldarblood]

If it is a character you run often then stunning blow > toughness.

If it is just a raid character toughness > stunning blow.

Should start with an 18 strength.
Lose the oversized 2WF

[Manzikeen]

WF don't need to bother with skill points in swim do they? Never needed it on my WF seeing as they don't breath.

[quityourjobs]

WF don't need to bother with skill points in swim do they? Never needed it on my WF seeing as they don't breath.

I was scratching my head over WF and swim as well.

[rage9]

Should you take toughness? Yes! Take it as your first feat. Leave power attack for a bit down the road since you wont be hitting **** with it on till your BAB gets higher.

[Phantomizer]

It's entirely retroactive. Doesn't matter when you take it.

I just learned that last night, i thought it only started counting at the time you picked it.


WF don't need to bother with skill points in swim do they? Never needed it on my WF seeing as they don't breath.


I was scratching my head over WF and swim as well.

Good point o.O

I haven't rolled him yet, so guess i can figure out something else:eek:

[Khellendros13]

Well, this is how I see it:

8 tiers of Toughness is 20 action points. A raged Barbarian will end up around 800hp anyway.

Use those enhancements to max stunning blow and trip instead. Stunning blow on a beholder is awesome. Trip on casters is awesome. Tripping an Orthon and saving damage all around is great too.

With the huge strength from raging, I can't see how you can go past stunning blow. Weighted maul in epic?

Toughness if you just want to swing and not use trip and stunning blow to take out critical targets.

On all other classes, I would, and do, take toughness first.

[Tuckley]

Battleaxe
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Handaxe
Damage and Type: 1d6
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x3 (keen 19-20)

Scimitar
Damage and Type: 1d6 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

Khopesh
Damage and Type: 1d8 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 19-20/x3 (keen 17-20)

Kukri
Damage and Type: 1d4 Slash
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 18-20/x2 (keen 15-20)

I admit that the Khopesh is a very nice weapon - but it's also exotic, meaning it takes an extra feat to wield it without penalty, right? And most of the builds I've seen are already feat-poor (see all the "should I get Toughness or Stunning Blow" threads) so what feat would you give up to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency?

Wouldn't another good alternative be the Heavy Pick? I don't see many people talking about them, but:
Damage and Type: 1d6 Pierce
Critical threat range (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range): 20/x4 (keen 19-20)

It does have a lower base damage (one point on average) than the battleaxe, but it also has a higher multiplier, which is really nice for boosting damage given all the stuff that gets multiplied (and including all the FB/Deathless Frenzy boosts - doesn't that mean a final multiplier of x7!!). It's also a martial weapon - so no extra feat is needed.

I just wanted to ask since no one seems to talk about picks in DPS builds and I'm wondering why not.

While we're on the subject... why are there no 2-handed piercing melee weapons? I'd like to have a good option for a THF piercing weapon.

[ArichValtrahn]

I admit that the Khopesh is a very nice weapon - but it's also exotic, meaning it takes an extra feat to wield it without penalty, right? And most of the builds I've seen are already feat-poor (see all the "should I get Toughness or Stunning Blow" threads) so what feat would you give up to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency?

*IMO* Barbs dont have room to take Khopesh as a feat. For a warrior, though, its a great idea.

[tihocan]

I just wanted to ask since no one seems to talk about picks in DPS builds and I'm wondering why not.
Because pick is still behind khopesh. But if you don't want to take khopesh, yes it's a good choice.

[Tuckley]

*IMO* Barbs dont have room to take Khopesh as a feat. For a warrior, though, its a great idea.

OK - but since this is a Barb thread in the Barb forum I was focusing on Barbs... and Rheebus didn't mention in his comment that using Khopesh requires an extra feat (which most Barbs don't have available).


Because pick is still behind khopesh. But if you don't want to take khopesh, yes it's a good choice.

As mentioned - it's not really that barbs don't "want" to take it... it's that for most builds there isn't a feat available to gain proficiency in it (without sacrificing something more valuable than what you gain by wielding a khopesh over other weapons already available).

Still, I didn't intend to hijack this thread and think I'll start a separate one instead. Sorry about that, Phantomizer.

[Nick_RC]

You dont need toughness on a wf barb. Its nce but not necessary.

N