Improving Humans

[usefullidiot]

So. Another thread I read recently enlightned me to the fact we may use erroneous information to push for racial improvements.
So lets combine a list of problems with humans. Real, imagined, or flat out made up. Then try and come up with some solutions to improve humans.

[Lithic]

1) Humans are the only race without a permanent damage enhancement (elves & dwarves have racial weapons, WF have power attack, halflings get 8 sneak damage). A 17second boost every 30 seconds 5/day does not compensate.

2) Other than human stat enhancement and human healing amplification, humans get zero worthwhile enhancements (and the healing amp is arguable, though I recently learned to love it on my heal-scroll-using rogue.


An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.

A second fix would be to add haste boost to human versitility. Oh and sprint boost/DR boost. If you are gonna make the main enhancment a boost, it may as well have the good boosts rather than just the 5 barely adequate ones.

[krud]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

[Calebro]

An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.


I like this idea.

[gavagai]

An easy fix to human enhancements is to give them the first 2 tiers of any 4 tier racial enhancement the other races get (or first tier of a 2 tier enhancement, and maybe 2 tiers of 3), though perhaps at a cost of 1 AP more per step. This represents the shear variety of human tendencies, and how different groups can specialize in different ways.


A simple thought experiment shows why literally implementing this is way too overpowering. Humans would get the cheapest 2 tiers of all the best abilities, many of which stack:

Luck (Will): +2 Will saves for 3 AP
Vs. Spells: +2 Saves vs. Spells for 3 AP
Vs. Enchantments: +2 Saves vs. Enchantments for 3 AP
+6 for 9AP, compared to (say) a Dwarf's +6 for 10AP?!

Or:
Drow + Elf attack/melee: +2 Rapier atk/dmg for +8 AP total (would cost Elves/Drow 12 AP)
Sneak enhancements: +4 to-hit/damage for 8 AP
Human Versatility: +5 Damage for 20 seconds.
+6 to-hit, +11 damage for Sneak attacks, or +2/+7 normal attack, for 26AP.

My point: if they gave humans smaller-tier enhancement bonuses, they would have to hand-craft a line balanced for humans.

That said, I think humans are well balanced as is. Many classes benefit extremely by going human for the feat alone -- especially pure non-fighter melee classes, since that feat allows taking Kopesh. Unless I am splashing fighter or monk, many builds lose viability if they go non-human. [I don't have WF, however.]

The same goes for the extra skill point, which is excellent for multiclass builds. Think of that skill point as 2 free build points for abilities, without a penalty in any stat.

The stacking of class boosts with HV boosts is just gravy.

[IronClan]

+1 humans are versatile at crappy stuff that isn't very useful and doesn't get close to offsetting the racial bonus' every other race gets. That one extra feat amounts IMO to about a +2 stat bonus in ONE ability stat, if you look at the average feat it is generally giving you about that much "value" Such as a savings throw bonus, a +1 to hit or a +2 to damage +2-3 to a skill, +2 to spell pen...

So a feat is worth about 2-3 ability points (maybe 4 in the most extreme case, of a very good feat). Enough to take CON from 10 to 14 (0 bonus to +2) for example...

A Drow has +6 to select abilities, -2 to Con for a total of +4 (but effecitively much better than that because it allows you to hit 16 in DEX CHA and INT at a 1 build point per stat point cost where a human would only be able to "buy" a 14 in those same stats for the same 1 for 1 cost)

Then add lots of spot/search bonus' free weapon proficiencies, racial spell resistance....

Basically a Drow gets more ability points, and the equivalent of 5 or 6 free feats (+2 to 3 different skills, weapon proficiency, and a couple for the spell resists). Do the same thing for Halfing, and it's about the same ability points but maybe the equivalent of 7 or 8 free feats!!!! (AC, throwing stuff, three save feats, skills focus feats, bonus Rogue feat).

Forget about Enhancements, where Humans have the worst of everything. A Dwarf fighter gets a few free feats more than a Human (axes, spot, giant stuff, poison feat and saves feats) and then on top of that has better melee enhancements (Dwarven axe damage)...

Dragon marks well why bother....

I agree letting humans access the first tier (and a limited amount of second tier) of ALL race enhancements actually makes them "versatile"... and might actually make up for the fact that they end up with the equivalent of 5 to 8 less feats than any other race.

From a Darwinian standpoint the Humans of DDO would have been extincted by the Halflings and Dwarfs before they made it out of tribal culture :)

[gavagai]

+1 humans are versatile at crappy stuff that isn't very useful and doesn't get close to offsetting the racial bonus' every other race gets.

Obviously what is useful is relative to a playstyle. But I'm not seeing how humans are only versatile at "crappy stuff." I think when you look at it, you see many of the racial benefits you talk about are in fact the "crappy stuff," and humans are pretty well off.


Forget about Enhancements, where Humans have the worst of everything. A Dwarf fighter gets a few free feats more than a Human (axes, spot, giant stuff, poison feat and saves feats) and then on top of that has better melee enhancements (Dwarven axe damage)...

Racial weapon enhancements are easy to overestimate. Without considering weapon crit effects, a 50 STR Dwarf fighter with Kopeshes does more damage (on low fort mobs) that a 50 Str Dwarf fighter with axes and enhancements. An elf with kopeshes is similarly more DPS than an elf with scimmies/rapiers. Now crit effects are better for scimitars, but probably won't make scims "better" than kopeshes unless you're a paladin with every known burst effect in the game.

Now take a human with Kopeshes: she will do that same damage as Dwarf and Elf. Then consider the Human +1 Str. And for 10AP the human can add a burst +5 damage from HV.

Humans are no worse than Elves/Drow/Dwarves, but all four are below Warforged and Halflings for optimal DPS.


...spot, giant stuff, poison feat, and saves feats...

Skill bonuses are generally useless once you have the gear. Poison is so weak nowadays that it is hardly a benefit; and in any case a "Neutralize Poison" pot is good enough. The giant bonuses are only useful if, (a) you are an AC build, and (b) you fight giants a lot. Neither are likely to be true for most players. Hence, less useful.

The saves bonuses are really nice. Halfling bonuses, Dwarf bonuses, and (to a much lesser extent) Elf enchantment bonuses. But they are balanced; I don't think humans are gimp without them.

Dwarven Armor Mastery bonuses and Tactics bonuses are really nice, but again since most players aren't AC based and tactics fiends, these are balanced well enough. Dwarves have a solid niche, no problem with that; they also have to sacrifice for top UMD and Intim.

I think the clear loser in these comparisons are actually the stinkin' elves and the drow. They are more flavor races, but they have few truly "useful" benefits...


A Drow has +6 to select abilities, -2 to Con for a total of +4 (but effecitively much better than that because it allows you to hit 16 in DEX CHA and INT at a 1 build point per stat point cost where a human would only be able to "buy" a 14 in those same stats for the same 1 for 1 cost)

If you compare 32-point non Drow with Drow, you find that Drow are rarely rarely preferable to humans. Elves and Drow get shafted in the Stats game, since Turbine has decided survival = more hps. While elves get up to +4 dex, that Dex rarely makes up for the -2/-4 to Con most elves/drow roll with. Add Human Toughness III, and you see a human sitting with usually +30/+50 hp more than an elf/drow.

Humans are also the only race that can use enhancements to bump Str, Wis, Cha, and Int. So while the 20 CHA Drow Sorc gets up to +2 to Dex (useless), the 18 CHA human Sorc gets +1 to CHA. Until +4 tomes become more common, humans will usually be sitting in the same Mod bracket as a drow and with 50 more hps (14 Con vs. 18 Con + toughness III).


Dragon marks well why bother....

Agreed. This is the one area where the Elves got lucky. :)

[krud]

It depends on what you think that versatility means. Is it for each individual human, or is it for the race as a whole? I think having it apply for each individual, where all the racial enhancemnts would be open for selection may be a bit overpowered. I would tend to think it is the latter, where it is the race as a whole, and not each individual that has versatility. They can limit each human to selecting the abilities from only one race, e.g. you decide to select the dwarf enhancements, it locks out all the enhancements from the other races. Still limit them to only the first couple of tiers.

[Memnir]

I say really go with the versatility aspect of the Humans - and give them an Enhancement line to boost Exotic Weapon attacks and damage... :D

[gavagai]

I say really go with the versatility aspect of the Humans - and give them an Enhancement line to boost Exotic Weapon attacks and damage... :D

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something... ;)

[IronClan]

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something... ;)

In P&P that's called a monk =)

[Woody00]

A +5% experience enchment to reflect how they have the ablility to reach the max lvl cap with the shortest life span of all the races.

[IronClan]

Obviously some people have played the game enough that they mostly care about how their character plays at level 20 for them it all boils down to self repairing WF wizards, dual Kopeshes DPS and spell DC... and that's fine for those select few. I also notice the power gamers tend to love those clicky action boosts, in my group (all casual players but with years of MMO experience) everyone avoids "square" feats and enhancements like the plaque, we've got our hands full already... trying to remember to click a bunch of situational 20 second boosts at the right time isn't in the cards... IMHO those things are for the more accomplished twitch and FPS based players.

I think many players especially F2P are very much going to care about AC and skills for the first 15 or 16 levels. And I think even when they focus on end game; grinding for uber stuff or trying to come up with millions of platinum PER SLOT to buy +15 skill gear is not very realistic. So that gear doesn't (or shouldn't) negate the racial bonus' to skills your character is using.

If in fact you get the right gear, (or plan to) that also gives an advantage... those race skill bonus feats let you put more points in other skills and be that much more "well rounded".

The Drow vs Humans thing boils down to a LOT of virtual feats (weaps and spell resistance and skill bonus') AND a rather significant ability point boost for any arcane caster, or wiz/rog multi... If Dex (rogue skills) and Int are important to you the Drow will end up with 4 ability points more than a 32 point Human, and no -1 to UMD (min 10 CHA).

So there's no incentive to roll a human for a rogue/wizard... if you do it for theme or RP reasons you're actually taking a significant penalty (more power to you). You certainly don't need the Human's extra feat to take most every useful wiz class feat.

If CON is important (and yeah they've made it very important I agree by making AC such a lofty target at high levels) then the Dwarf is surely a far superior choice than Human for anything melee... again he gets 4 or 5 "race feats" including the very tempting Dwarven war axe, which is worth a feat in and of itself for some people (greataxe like crit numbers and can dual wield or shield). For abilities the same 32 points gets you identical stats with a 18 CON and 8 CHA for a human or a 20 CON and 6 CHA for a Drawf...

But if you min max less (and I think you should) the drawf can have the same 8 CHA and the same 18 CON as the human (all other abilities identical just for the sake of even comparison) but the Drawf ends up with 4 free left over build points while the human has 0 left... (this is assuming 10's in Dex Int and Wis) so there's some serious points there if you want more skill points per level or more dex (to fill the max AC cap if you have Mithril stuff) or more for Wis (if you want to multi to battle Cleric, or take a Monk Splash)... So basically if you want "versatility" you want to take Dwarf.

In the above example the Human (who gets 1 bonus skill point per level and 4 at 1st) ends up LESS SKILLED (less versatile) if the Dwarf _wants_ extra skills those 4 points left over make for a 14 Int, which is 40 skill points to the Humans free 23... 17 more skill points at the same 32 point build cost with the other stats being identical. Hmmm by that token a Dwarf looks like a better race than Human to make a "battle mage" out of. Or a Rogue splash with HP's

So who's the versatile race again?

I could go on, Pure rogue or many multi's are better off as Drow or Halflings with healing dragonmarks. AC builds wont be Human, WF casters can heal themsevles, non melee's that don't need STR or builds that plan to be squishy are better off as Drow or Halfing, builds that want best survivability (HP) = Dwarf or WF...

So it appears the best reason to pick a Human is Paladin (arguably depending on how much Cha you want... if 12 Cha works for your build then the Dwarf makes a stronger Pally even... and that's totally counter-intuitive!) or theme or role play based (or purely end game so you can have max feats + Kopesh)...

[mediocresurgeon]

On Sarlona, I really only see 3 races played: Halflings, Humans, and Warforged. IMO we should give the Drow, Elves, and Dwarves a boost.

[rimble]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

hehe, from the Update 3 release notes:

The temporary boosts granted by Human Versatility no longer share a common cooldown timer with other Action Boosts, allowing a Human to use a Human Versatility and a class based Action Boost simultaneously. Note that since both provide Action Boost bonuses, identical boosts will not stack, but a Human Rogue could, for instance, combine Human Damage Boost with Rogue Haste Boost.

[Anderei]

I think the human is fine as s/he is, when versality was introduced weren't there hugh topics complaining that DDO is overpowering humans?

Obvious: Humans get a bonus feat, while not worth mentioning in fighter builds, in all this build starved classes its very welcomed.
Sometimes forgotten: +20 Skill Points, worthwhile since many skills are more important in DDO than in D&D
Also: Humans are the only race that get a Charisma and Wisdom bonus.

If I'd change something, it would allow greater adaption to be on the same stat than the first one. But thats all (and I agree the human dragonmarks are IMHO worthless, except maybe the passage on a fighter who got tons of feet to be able to waste one for DD, but also here its questionable)

[Emili]

■Cannith Repairing I
■Cannith Repairing II
■Cannith Repairing III
■Cannith Repairing IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent – typically considered a wasted set of feats) factor in the repair skill is mundane and totally unnecessary. - gimp enhancement but specialized build.

■Deneith Intimidation I
■Deneith Intimidation II
■Deneith Intimidation III
■Deneith Intimidation IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent – typically considered useful on intimidating tank builds) Specialized build – non versatile in sense the human serves one purpose.

■Extra Dragonmark Use I
■Extra Dragonmark Use II
■Extra Dragonmark Use III
■Extra Dragonmark Use IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent) all dragon marked races possess – would consider non racial trait.

■Human Adaptability Charisma I
■Human Adaptability Constitution I
■Human Adaptability Dexterity I
■Human Adaptability Intelligence I
■Human Adaptability Strength I
■Human Adaptability Wisdom I

Well received flexible but surprisingly this garners an advantage attained by most races in an exceptional or profane bonus item slot requires higher level then other races defined attributes to attain and still behind in build points spent for equalization. (Note – one of Adaptability or Greater Adaptability always ends up in CON to open up the third tier of racial toughness)

■Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
■Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
■Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity I
■Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I
■Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
■Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I

Well received flexible but surprisingly this garners an advantage attained by most races in an exceptional or profane bonus item slot requires higher level then other races defined attributes to attain and still behind in build points spent for equalization. (Note – one of Adaptability or Greater Adaptability always ends up in CON to open up the third tier of racial toughness)

■Human Improved Recovery I
■Human Improved Recovery II
■Human Improved Recovery III

Useful in survivability – is after fact – Healing human costs less yet humans in general need more healing due to average lower defenses in AC, Saves, and middle road HP. This enhancement stacks with items thus humans reach higher healing amplification then other races in general though other races so equipped with healing amp items take less damages via saves, AC or HP buffer.

■Human Versatility I
■Human Versatility II
■Human Versatility III
■Human Versatility IV

Often used as a undesired filler...

Skill boost is useful for skill based builds ... does not stack with class skill boosts yet supplements allowing a multi-classed skill based build to reach maximum skill boost clickie. Sad side is among it's other options only the AC boosting and Save boosting (when turtling or expecting the worst) bear any warrant... second guessing or staying alive in times of trouble... maybe something you would not have to worry about had you been dwarf, halfling, warforged or possibly even elf/drow.

Attack boost and Damage boost are actually a detriment to what the intended result should be... i.e. The only time to use damage boost is while running up to the mob in question... hitting the boost while mob engaged actually lowers DPS by removing near a second (even with Quickdraw feated) the +5 to damage on subsequent swings of it's duration total less then the swing given up, I and others have proven this time and again.

■Iron Companion
■Mithral Companion
■Steel Companion

All races have these

■Orien Balance I
■Orien Balance II
■Orien Balance III
■Orien Balance IV

Dragon mark (feat dependent) Specialized build – non versatile in sense the human serves one purpose.

■Racial Toughness I
■Racial Toughness II
■Racial Toughness III

Everyone gets two tiers... tier three requires Adaptability or Greater Adaptability be taken in CON (costing 12 Aps to achieve)


Effectively pondering the lists the human race possess four actual usable enhancements ... two of which most humans would strive for and two of which are more dependent on the first two... I would wager most humans carry Adaptability, Greater Adaptability, Human Improved Recovery and Racial Toughness III.

I go not into base DnD considerations as those racial traits are indeed base - the reason to be human - a feat and extra skill - the stat point distribution etc... these are base DnD description. Rounded stat points on human is what make them strong contender for Bard and Paladin classes (places where stat points need more even distritbution)... The exageration other races possess in enhancements are based much on this base - WF extra damage, Halfling Guile, Dwarf Con, etc... Humans do not have that... DDO did not exagerate the human vis enhancements for extra feat nor skill as much as they built on the other races for the same ... nor had they taken the "favored class" (which is really only a xp bonus on multi-classed in DnD core rule) and addressed "Human favored class any" bears no meaning in the same light as "Favored class fighter" as on a dwarf.

I do admit though... Elves, who by definition should be a significant race in both melee and arcane take a back seat to more CON oriented races yet only slightly ... For melee this is moreso due to the power of the Khopesh and not the race however... The max'd difference in hp between elf/drow is "30" the average is "20." Among arcane builds however the human fairs better due the base feat and skill for the DDO overpowered skill UMD ... much moreso then the CON.

The question then arises... what do other races spend AP distribution on. I know for a fact the bulk of human AP's are spent typically on more costly class enhancements... i.e. racial III + class toughness IV ... whereas the dwarf/wf would likely racial II + class II and con 2 for like results... gaining more fort and hp then the human.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I go not into base DnD considerations as those racial traits are indeed base - the reason to be human - a feat and extra skill - the stat point distribution etc... these are base DnD description. Rounded stat points on human is what make them strong contender for Bard and Paladin classes (places where stat points need more even distritbution)... The exageration other races possess in enhancements are based much on this base - WF extra damage, Halfling Guile, Dwarf Con, etc... Humans do not have that... DDO did not exagerate the human vis enhancements for extra feat nor skill as much as they built on the other races for the same ... nor had they taken the "favored class" (which is really only a xp bonus on multi-classed in DnD core rule) and addressed "Human favored class any" bears no meaning in the same light.


Bravo! +1 for a REAL reply, and not opinion.

[Emili]

Obvious: Humans get a bonus feat, while not worth mentioning in fighter builds, in all this build starved classes its very welcomed.
Sometimes forgotten: +20 Skill Points, worthwhile since many skills are more important in DDO than in D&D

Have you got that switched? Skills are more important in DnD and not DDO - fact is in DDO there are less skills and a lot less skills of any real worth as DDO is a combat game not a RPG. DDO has but one GOD skill (UMD) and a smattering of nice to haves... I see plenty a drow sorc healing and resing, I know not many halfling or drow rogues complaining about lack of diplomacy, DD nor OL... and deffinately none have ever told me - "I wish I built this human."

Also of note... bonus feat and extra skill points are Base DnD ... nothing to do at all with enhancements. Items in game + the other racial enhancemnts overshadow those "Human racial enhancements" we currently have... There is no denying the a WF, Dwarf or Halfling melee will average higher DPS, Saves, AC then the human counterpart when put in practice they are more well rounded for those tasks in general. Humans shine in Bard, Pally and Sorc and lesser extent extreme skilled rogue ... but there is no defining factor on a human which screams "THIS CLASS" human is great.

[Zuldar]

One thing I was thinking of would be to allow humans to take the first tier of any pre enhancement. They could substitute human versatility for any class enhancements. It would help to represent their adaptability a bit, and probably be enough to make them worth considering.

Of course it would count as their racial pre and they could only have one at a time.

[Anderei]

[COLOR="Plum"]
Also of note... bonus feat and extra skill points are Base DnD ... nothing to do at all with enhancements. Items in game + the other racial enhancemnts overshadow those "Human racial enhancements" we currently have... There is no denying the a WF, Dwarf or Halfling melee will average higher DPS, Saves, AC then the human counterpart when put in practice they are more well rounded for those tasks in general. Humans shine in Bard, Pally and Sorc and lesser extent extreme skilled rogue ...

Also for rogue splashes (with the intend to be a trapmonkey) a human is a good pick. For clerics/fvs the extra +1 wisdom is also not that bad.

You're correct the things that speak for a human are the base rules, I doubt they offer any useful enhancements.


but there is no defining factor on a human which screams "THIS CLASS" human is great.


Isn't this the DnD idea of the human? Can do everything pretty well, but for nothing the core specialists race?

Edit: Above it reads "Human The most adaptable, flexible and ambitious of the Eberron races."

I don't see the ambitiousness reflected anywhere, would be a nice place for an improvement

[gavagai]

The Drow vs Humans thing boils down to a LOT of virtual feats (weaps and spell resistance and skill bonus') AND a rather significant ability point boost for any arcane caster, or wiz/rog multi... If Dex (rogue skills) and Int are important to you the Drow will end up with 4 ability points more than a 32 point Human, and no -1 to UMD (min 10 CHA).

The "significant" ability boost is +1 to a casting stat, in exchange for around -50HP (assuming each maxes CON and racial enhancements), less healing amp, less situational UMD (humans get up to +5 through their boost to skills -- great when rezzing on the fly).

The examples of a 28-point Drow rogue that that would have the "equivalant" of a 36+ point human build are limited to special builds that have above-average Dex and Int. Here's a Drow build that would have the equivalent of 40 build points on a human!
Str 10 (2 pts if human)
Dex 18 (16 points if human)
Con 12 (4 points if human)
Int 18 (16 points if human)
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2 points if human)
This is a crappy build, and shows that even 8 build points doesn't equal better utility if you can't put them where they matter. Most rogue builds probably would be better with humans, which offer more options to customize your build with more HPs, melee survivability, an extra feat, and the free skill point.


So there's no incentive to roll a human for a rogue/wizard... if you do it for theme or RP reasons you're actually taking a significant penalty (more power to you). You certainly don't need the Human's extra feat to take most every useful wiz class feat.

But you can't say with a straight face that +50hps (+73 if you take an extra Toughness with the "unneeded" human feat), +healing amp, and a skills boost is "no incentive" to take a -1 to Int, which often makes no difference to DCs.


If CON is important (and yeah they've made it very important I agree by making AC such a lofty target at high levels) then the Dwarf is surely a far superior choice than Human for anything melee... again he gets 4 or 5 "race feats" including the very tempting Dwarven war axe, which is worth a feat in and of itself for some people (greataxe like crit numbers and can dual wield or shield). For abilities the same 32 points gets you identical stats with a 18 CON and 8 CHA for a human or a 20 CON and 6 CHA for a Drawf...

Dwarves rule for AC tank builds, due to their ability to get the highest ACs in Heavy Armor.

But again, Dwarven Axe is a little worse than Kopesh. On equal builds, humans are 3 Con and 1 enhancement line behind dwarves. So humans are short at most 50 HPs, but have healing amp. 50 hps is significant, but not make-or-break for a fighter, and 4AP for Toughness IV isn't totally realistic. So no, dwarves don't make humans irrelevant; and neither do humans make Dwarf irrelevant.

tl;dr: There are plenty of reasons for humans because they are versastile. There are a few reasons for a Dwarf (max AC build, max HP build, tactical feats DCs build) because they are better at a narrower number of things.


So who's the versatile race again?
If your definition of "versatility" is "quantity of race-specific feats," then humans will lose. What you fail to see is that quality of human benefits leaves them at the top among most fleshie races for most classes and builds. Melee, caster, trapmonkey, healer, buffer, spellslinger -- each of these functions/roles/classes can be achieved amazingly with a human. The same can't be said of any other racial setup.

The only races that make humans seem shabby are Warforged and Halfling, which are so far ahead of the pack for melee DPS (power attack & sneak attack), survivability (immunities, saves boosts), and versatility (halfling companion and dragonmarks, WF plating, brute fighting, and other enhancements).


I could go on, Pure rogue or many multi's are better off as Drow or Halflings with healing dragonmarks.

I don't think you could make a good "pure" rogue with halfling dragonmarks. Those feats are too expensive. The multi's, maybe -- but then the extra skill point and feat are great for multi's between feat- and skill point- starved classes. Which are most classes.

[Emili]

Also for rogue splashes (with the intend to be a trapmonkey) a human is a good pick. For clerics/fvs the extra +1 wisdom is also not that bad.

You're correct the things that speak for a human are the base rules, I doubt they offer any useful enhancements.



Isn't this the DnD idea of the human? Can do everything pretty well, but for nothing the core specialists race?

This:



•+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength.
•Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
•Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
•+2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
•+1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
•+2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
•+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.
•Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc.
•Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.


vs this:



•Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Human base land speed is 30 feet.
•1 extra feat at 1st level.
•4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
•Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
•Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.


By base rule are you suggesting the by basis of +1 ac, equal attack but smaller weapons, +1 saves, Climbs, Jumps, Listens, and Move Silently checks... vs an extra feat and 23 extra skill points... and this constitutes one is a rogue specialist? or even adjusts to a fighter specialist?

Is no doubt one has 5% ac and saves but is lacking in Damage output compared to the other... quite frankly what would happen if the extra feat on the second were put in dodge, lightning reflexes, evening the characters up or possibly the other way power attack...? Base game have not specialized race/class - fact that one racial tends prefered there is not an extreme specialization in core DnD. Not all halflings are rogues nor are the all fighters yet the other races serve just as well in those classes should you examine the traits and see the trade offs.

[Emili]

But you can't say with a straight face that +50hps (+73 if you take an extra Toughness with the "unneeded" human feat), +healing amp, and a skills boost is "no incentive" to take a -1 to Int, which often makes no difference to DCs.


Str 10 (2 pts if human)
Dex 18 (16 points if human) +1 mod drow
Con 12 (4 points if human) - possibly the human may grab a +3 exceptional?
Int 18 (16 points if human) equal skill +1 DC favoring drow
Wis 8
Cha 10 (2 points if human) +1 mod drow

... is not 50, is 30 typically, Drow/elf both have racial toughness II (lack racial III) (-10) and -2 con (-20)... human taking an extra toughness accounts for 23 more so 53 max'd ... if +3 exceptional on human and +2 exceptional on drow then that 73 is possible.

Again if we say place all other feats equal and the human spent on an extra toughness.

Enhancement wise the human may opt for +5 skill boost... and of course sport +53 hp more due to an adaptability point and racial III and most likely healing amp...

The drow most likely would seek +2 dex more ... another DC and hopefully these are both finessed ... a +1 to hit, with a rapier the drow may decide on +2 more damage output ... who knows maybe +2 more attack (i do not know maybe they're gearing for epics and needed the to hit?) thus 4.5 more dps if a TWF build.

both builds seem more trap monkey PLUS then anything. People tout assasin PrE, I have one... but as a famous strength halfling rogue put it to me ... the only thing good about assasin in a group is tier III - he uses INT as a dump stat. Why? well simply put as you all know - the way to complete any quest is kill the boss.

[Anderei]

Emili also not to be forgotten that "powerplaying" is generally frowned upon Pen and Paper playing, maybe DnD a bit lesser than other PnPs, but somebody picking a race just to maximize its power? ->Meh. While powerplaying is most what players make out of DDO.

The halfling rogue is such a cliche, even in DnD. I like how Eberron gave them Healing Dragonmarks.
But yes the halfling additions do well match to a roguish specialisation (+4 to hide, +2 to other skills), while the humans are general purpose, thats why you can adjust that feat to what you want to do.

[gavagai]

... is not 50, is 30 typically, Drow/elf both have racial toughness II (lack racial III) (-10) and -2 con (-20)... human taking an extra toughness accounts for 23 more so 53 max'd ... if +3 exceptional on human and +2 exceptional on drow then that 73 is possible.

Good points about that build, though I certainly wouldn't suggest it to anyone. :)

The +50/+73 hps comment was directed to the pure caster build. A Drow's max Con score is 14 on a build that takes a casting stat to 20. A Human 32-point can take 18 in CON and 18 in that casting stat.

The 4 con difference = 40hps.

If the Human Adaptability point in Con adds another con bracket, then it will be. +60

Then add the human Toughness enhancement for an extra +10 = +50/+70.

Finally, the extra toughness feat [not recommended!]: +73/93

Not bad on a gimp caster. ;)

[HallowedOne]

A second fix would be to add haste boost to human versitility.


I'd LOVE that one, but I think it might be too overkill. Also, I don't think it combines with the human racial traits.

On a side note, I think elves and halflings should have such enhancements, since they are the dexterous/agile races on D&D.

[gavagai]

On a side note, I think elves and halflings should have such enhancements, since they are the dexterous/agile races on D&D.

I think a haste boost, a spell damage/DC boost, or some other creative boost option (like poisons, DC 1/2 character level +10) would be great to add balance to Drow or Elves.

Halflings -- omg they certainly shouldn't get a haste boost! Who leggo my eggo??

[IronClan]

"human bonus feat"

Again when every race gets 4 to 7 free feats except humans, the one so-called bonus feat is no longer actually a bonus...

[SteeleTrueheart]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatanAztar
You should allow the human versatility boosts as a substitute for the fighter attack boost.

I've got other plans for Human Versatility in a future mod, don't worry about that.



as per a previous post by eladrin

[gavagai]

"human bonus feat"

Again when every race gets 4 to 7 free feats except humans, the one so-called bonus feat is no longer actually a bonus...

Why the fixation on the quantity of feats? And not the quality? Many racial feats are decent, but most are junk after a couple levels.

Is a Barbarian improved more by having Toughness/Stunning Blow or Dwarven Search +2?
Is a Wizard/Rogue going to want +1 size bonus to AC and to-hit, or Insightful Reflexes/Spell Focus?

As a human, you choose a feat that maximizes the potential of the character you are playing. Show me a racial feat that is better than a self-selected human bonus feat.

Kopesh/Power Attack/Stunning Blow for melees.
Metamagic/Toughness/Mental Toughness/Spell Focus for casters.
Force of Personality/Insightful reflexes for low Dex/Wis builds.
Dodge/Combat Expertise for an AC build.
&c.

Many times a race will have a great fit with a specific build (Dwarf AC tank, Halfling Wis/AC Monk). But most of the time, more bonus feats doesn't mean it will be any better at what you want it to do. The human, on the other hand, can draw enormous benefit from that one feat.

[QuantumFX]

if they are going to keep HV as is, I would at least put it on it's own timer. Let it stack with all other boosts.

as per a previous post by eladrin

Apparently you guys didn't get the memo about how class action boosts and HV interact nowadays

[SteeleTrueheart]

Apparently you guys didn't get the memo about how class action boosts and HV interact nowadays

So you think the 'own timer' thing was all that Eladrin was referring to? I was sort of expecting more as in further enhancements that relied on HV as a pre req.

You're probably right though.

[usefullidiot]

Turbine should also let humans quad-wield, using hands and feet. 4 weapons = more versatility. They can make up some Eberron lore about how we were descended from apes or something... ;)

This was more to the intent of the original post, but this has been an intresting and enlightening read.

Reflecting on this and some build threads, human is almost never the optimal build. I however am not really a min/maxer...so, yeah.

I will leave the actual advantages/disadvantages to others with more experiance than myself.

I wil add that Humans take extra damage from mobs, so we should get dinosaur mounts with laser turrets.

[QuantumFX]

So you think the 'own timer' thing was all that Eladrin was referring to? I was sort of expecting more as in further enhancements that relied on HV as a pre req.

You're probably right though.

Turbine is extremely gunshy about making more changes to it again since the first time went over so well with the playerbase. I think they see letting HV substitute for prereqs to be potentially overpowering. (Personally, I don’t see it considering some of the passive bonuses they give to other races.)

[IronClan]

The "significant" ability boost is +1 to a casting stat, in exchange for around -50HP (assuming each maxes CON and racial enhancements), less healing amp, less situational UMD (humans get up to +5 through their boost to skills -- great when rezzing on the fly).

I haven't run a high level caster (or rogue splash caster) in DDO, although I'm currently working on one. So honest question: do you really invest enhancements and feats on lots of HP when you've got little to no melee, and AC and are going to be trying like heck to avoid being in a position to take hits? Are you giving up caster related enhancements to do that? I realize 50hps is a lot on a squishy caster (and probably get the best bang for buck out of toughness of all the classes especially considering caster class feats leave some open feats to take it with). What are you giving up enhancements wise to be less squishy?... and if less squishy is that important to you, wouldn't you be better off as a Dwarf Caster with not just no minus to Con, but a bonus to it that will allow the Dwarf to have better starting stats than Humans, AND the dump stat of all dump stats... 6 Cha? Without actually rolling it I think the Dwarf ends up with higher Con and Higher Int (which would negate the 23 skill points Humans get, while giving the Dwarf higher spell DC's on top of that).

I think I've come around a little on this, I agree Humans aren't as bad as they at first appear to be from a lower level perspective. But this has a lot to do with playstyle and end game min maxed characters. I think people who don't care how their character does until end game have an entirely different perspective... Someone who's build is end game focused doesn't understand why anyone would care about racial feats like 13 SR and improved saves, skill bonus' that they don't use etc.

People who like to have spot and search bonus' and saves bonus' probably aren't going through the game for the 10th time... they probably don't know that a Kopesh does a couple more average damage per minute than a Dwarven Waraxe (or a Bastard Sword) due to having a X3 multiplier with a 10% threat range, and they might not even care if they did...

[Cyr]

I don't know that humans are really underpowered at all. There are plenty of good builds running them on Sarlona. The extra feat actually makes a huge difference on certain builds. The enhancements are the least exciting part of humans of course, but the healing amp one actually is one of the best parts of being human. The healing amp + extra feat actually works very well for high hit point feat starved builds such as pure barbs, mostly pure paladins, and pure paladins. It even helps alot on pure monks (although the extra feat is less important on those compared to the healing amp).

[Tilliak]

Humans get Skill and Feat bonues. They don't need fixing. Ever.

[Rusty_Can]

So honest question: do you really invest enhancements and feats on lots of HP when you've got little to no melee, and AC and are going to be trying like heck to avoid being in a position to take hits?


Hp are important for ANY build, casters included; I usually deem Toughness IV racial enhancement (available only to WF and dwarves) too expensive, but Toughness feat and 2 or 3 tiers of racial enhancements (20 hp for 3 APs or 30 hp for 6 APs) are not a bad deal.

As for AC, it's really hard to achieve decent AC on casters, hence I don't think many casters are really concerned with it; stoneskin, displacement and haste represent often a cheaper and more effective solution. However, I consider AC more gear-related than feat-related.

[Emili]

Humans get Skill and Feat bonues. They don't need fixing. Ever.
Considering your current race choices listed I was just wondering... Do you have any humans? Have you played every class as human to cap to actually compare them among other races in their class/builds? Why do you have many halflings with a rogue splash yet no humans built like them? You Barbarian you chose dwarf, tell me why not a human before that?

What is interesting is people point at extra feat yet do not realize most all other races have extra abilities equivalent of extra feat... then let us think? Is not gile similar to a feat in effect? What about Axe enhancements compared to weapon specialization, luck vs lightning reflexes? Should you know it or not enhancements serve the same exact functions as feats... Seven feat (eight for human) while you think about this consider what and where you are placing feat and what you consider in place of which in enhancement ...

[gavagai]

Considering your current race choices listed I was just wondering... Do you have any humans? Have you played every class as human to cap to actually compare them among other races in their class/builds? Why do you have many halflings with a rogue splash yet no humans built like them? You Barbarian you chose dwarf, tell me why not a human before that?

What is interesting is people point at extra feat yet do not realize most all other races have extra abilities equivalent of extra feat... then let us think? Is not gile similar to a feat in effect? What about Axe enhancements compared to weapon specialization, luck vs lightning reflexes? Should you know it or not enhancements serve the same exact functions as feats... Seven feat (eight for human) while you think about this consider what and where you are placing feat and what you consider in place of which in enhancement ...



The value of the human feat is that it is precisely the feat you need to maximize the effectiveness of your character, rather than a generic bonus that may or may not benefit you. How many builds need Luck of Heroes or Lightning Reflexes?

But you're right in that some builds don't need extra feat or skills; and the human will probably be less useful. There will always be synergies with certain races and classes. Now until Turbine nerfs kopeshes and introduces races that get + enhancements to CHA, INT, and STR, humans aren't really worse off because they get fewer bonuses, because their bonuses are across-the-board so bloody useful.

For the cost of a feat, kopesh is a bit better than racial enhancements. For a Paladin without AP to spare on even racial weapon enhancements, that Kopesh boost can be huge. Enough to tip in favor of a Human. However, for a THF Barb, there is no exotic THF version of the kopesh, so a Dwarven Axe Barb or WF Barb will have some advantage over the human, since the extra feat if less beneficial.

Halflings get nice benefits, but they are less useful in general than the benefits of Human for a Paladin. Or Drow, for that matter. Less useful for Sorcs or Wizards than the benefits of being Human. In fact, most Halflings fall in the niche of monk/rogue/ranger melee builds, which is a very narrow slice of the overall bulds.

[IronClan]

IMO human fighter doesn't need an extra feat to take Khopesh unless you lust over all the tacticals like improved trip/SB etc. instead of just one or two. I realize there are builds out there that need every feat a fighter gets, but that's not every fighter build. And lets face is if you ever take Stunning Blow at 1st level with your Human feat, jack STR up to 18, and then commence to being totally underwelmed by it, not even managing to stun stuff in Korthos more than once in a blue moon, well... IMO there's plenty of room on any fighter build for Khopesh feat without needing to take Human.Especially when you consider that at later levels a Paralyzing weapon or two and WOP or WOE weapons can do similar things without costing you a feat.

IMO the split here seems to be powergamers with min/maxed Kopesh builds who guage the success of their characters only as level 20 end game characters, versus people who play the game as an RPG and not a first person shooter... Been this way with character balance in every MMO i've played... Those who find an optimal "pigeon hole" build for a class or race, like it just the way it is, no matter how narrowly focused and specialized it is. while those who want reasons to play characters all through the game, want the disparity as they see it, better balanced. Sure a powergamer doesn't care if a Dwarf gets 3 or 4 feats that have to do with skills and saves, those don't matter when you have end game Uber +15 skill and +6 stat items.

Although that same Dwarf also gets Dwarven Waraxe which is just about as good DPS as Khopesh in many situations, and even a little better in some (depending on crit immunities) so that free exotic weapon proficiency really starts to stack up with those 3-4 other free starting feats... Humans 1 Dwarfs 5... doesn't add up to balanced especially when the Dwarf gets better stat point builds, and can easilly out skill point the human melee (if desired) while having otherwise identical melee oriented stats. I'm pretty sure they would even make a better low starting charisma Paladin... As long as you are willing to pump CHA with tomes and a point or two of level up when there's no extra build point cost for doing so. Heck if you've got uber gear and don't need super high CHA, just leave CHA alone at 6, eat a tome +2 and wear a +6 item.

[Bacab]

IMHO Warforged are the best race at every job/class except CLR and FVS.

I feel this way because for melees WF power attack is just so great. Also the immunities and of course being able to be healed by arcane casters is really nice. WF make best arcane casters due to...immunities (most fleshie arcanes have bad fort saves) and the bonus CON for HP...and of course self-healing.

FVS and CLR is where Human IMHO are the best at it. The Healing Amp is nice. The bonus to WIS is nice. The bonus HP (Racial toughness) is nice. So with this in mind; maybe human could get something similar to dwarves and their divine SP. Like SP if you are a CLR/FVS/PLD? Just copy/paste what the dwarves get.

Halflings are the standard ROG.

Elf are the standard RNG (lol not sure why)

Dwarf are the standard FTR

WF are the standard Barb (PA and immunities)

So...make FVS/CLR/PLD the standard Human class(es)

Just give us some bonuses. Maybe even make HV affect healing potency or add Human healing potency enhancements (that stack with class enhancements). ANd like I said, bonus SP enhancements.

Also, kinda unrelated...Warforged FVS get Greatsword. Human get bow (yuck) or Longsword. Maybe Convert the Longsword religion to bastard sword? It would be a neat little free bonus that would make Bastard swords NOT vendor trash.

[Anderei]

Just give us some bonuses. Maybe even make HV affect healing potency or add Human healing potency enhancements (that stack with class enhancements). ANd like I said, bonus SP enhancements..

Or nerv WF, what did I say something? No didn't said anything :)

[Angelus_dead]

I think they see letting HV substitute for prereqs to be potentially overpowering.
It appears more like they see it as beyond their software abilities.

They could, for example, set Rogue Assassin to require either Rogue Damage Boost or Human Versatility. But they do not have a way to make the Assassin Focus ability draw charges from either Rogue Boost or HV, especially considering that a character might have both of them.

Of course it shouldn't take terribly much programming to fix that, but they seem to have a dearth of programmers most of the time.

[flaggson]

I really think to fix em and follow the vein of versatility would be to do something similiar with their enhancement points as they do for their skills... +2 ap at lvl 1 and +1/ level ... powerful? yes... make sense? absolutely and would honestly put them in contention... and make them better at multiclassing too . .... probably get a lot of naysayers on this one.. but I really think it makes sense

[voodoogroves]

(1) Feats are gold, don't under-estimate that free one. It may not buy you raw power, but it may buy you time or versatility.

(2) I like humans as the only race than can racially-enhance an attribute of their choice. Like Wisdom. Or Charisma. Or Strength. Monk-cleric in wind stance for max WIS, etc.

(3) The Mark of Passage can buy you enough time to make up for many, many other drawbacks. Maybe I'm a speed-freak, but exp. retreat, d-door and esp. teleport are great ways to help maximize your reward (enjoyment, xp, loot) to time ratio.

[Artagon]

I really think to fix em and follow the vein of versatility would be to do something similiar with their enhancement points as they do for their skills... +2 ap at lvl 1 and +1/ level ... powerful? yes... make sense? absolutely and would honestly put them in contention... and make them better at multiclassing too . .... probably get a lot of naysayers on this one.. but I really think it makes sense

This actually seems to have some potential, though I think you could ease it back to +1 AP / 2 levels. I like the flavor of this because it DOES seem to be directly in line with the other abilities that the human gets innately such as the additional feat and skill pts per level.

Additionally, I'd like to see an enhancement line that makes humans better at multiclassing in different ways than other races too. For example:

Human Flexibility I/II/III:
AP COST: 3/6/9
You gain a (+1/+2/+3) effective class level (maxing at character level) for the purposes of enhancements and caster level for your various classes.

By combining this with the +10 total AP for the previous suggestion, the human can either be exceptional at his class, or more versatile than another race based upon multiclassing.

[Boldrin]

I think the best way to improve humans would be to have aliens come in and teach us how to live in peace and harmony. With no disease or sickness and an Utopian age can begin. We as humans just can't get the whole self improvement thing figured out.

[tomfar72]

I think the best way to improve humans would be to have aliens come in and teach us how to live in peace and harmony. With no disease or sickness and an Utopian age can begin. We as humans just can't get the whole self improvement thing figured out.

Yeah, I saw this movie one time where they decided to improve humans by mixing human and alien dna. Granted, she was pretty hot until she started growing scales and tentecles, but I think everyone was in agreement that they should have left humans alone.

[Samadhi]

So. Another thread I read recently enlightned me to the fact we may use erroneous information to push for racial improvements.
So lets combine a list of problems with humans. Real, imagined, or flat out made up. Then try and come up with some solutions to improve humans.

Solutions to improve them? They are already the closest thing to a master race that we currently have. Nothing to improve.

[Boldrin]

Yeah, I saw this movie one time where they decided to improve humans by mixing human and alien dna. Granted, she was pretty hot until she started growing scales and tentecles, but I think everyone was in agreement that they should have left humans alone.

Splicing DNA and teaching are completely different, lol.

[phillymiket]

I’ve made the mistake of making several humans and been burned every time.

Sure my sorc and pally/rogue can kick @ss in the dungeon.
But what about in the Inn? Do I ‘kick @ss’ while I’m AFK or waiting for SP regen?

No. My choice is stand there like a bump on log or stand there like bump on a rock.
Of course I’m talking about /dance and /dance2.

Me and my guildies have done research in REAL clubs for weeks using moves I learned from my human toons.

They do not work. They are broken. How can I compete when DDO switches to a PvP ‘dance-off’ combat system in MOD 7? Either WF and Halfling need to be nerfed or humans need some love.

I’m reluctantly providing the data I collected KNOWING the crowd that seems to think that ‘math’ can be used quantifiably prove anything will tear this up. Go ahead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z76MU5sQtGk
Start the flames “Math Nazis”. Start with your “you added incorrectly in the second part” or your “you CAN’T divide by zero” claptrap. I can still have my opinion can’t I?

Thanks to my sponsors who ask that you drink responsibly.

[BrinLondo]

My PnP days leapt out at me in this thread.

In PnP D&D, when you chose your race, you considered a couple of things: (1) Do I want racial abilities, (2) Do I want to be a social / racial outcast? (3) Do I want critters to prefer to eat me?

Depending on your campaign, it really depended on the race you chose. For the most part, in regards to many of the campaigns I have played, read about--whether D&D inspired or not--humans were known for a couple of things:

(1) Their ingenuity--to create or be involved in great deeds in such a short life span as compared to elves, dwarves, and such.
(2) Their capacity to create war and seek power.
(3) Their ability to breed in great numbers. I think it was Dragonlance(?) that ranked a pecking order of maggots, goblins, and humans.

That's it. As such...at least until 2nd Edition, they got NOTHING.

Humans didn't suffer being thought of as "demons" like elves, or "greedy" like dwarves. The list of creatures that "preferrred" to eat humans vs. the other races was slim to none.

To bulk up or modify humans, seems to cheapen the other races.

[bartosy]

I see nothing wrong with humans tbh the action boost is awesome + they get toughness III and to top it all off 2 ability points in a stat you actually want.. instead of useless dexterity for 3 races. not forgetting the healing amp that stacks with healing amp items and finger necklace... humans can be really powerful imo.

[domecek1]

Humans rocks, why you cannot see it?:)

[jwdaniels]

In our Pen and Paper game, we gave humans racial weapon familiarity with the bastard sword, so any human with martial weapon proficiency had it for free.

[bendover]

On Sarlona, I really only see 3 races played: Halflings, Humans, and Warforged. IMO we should give the Drow, Elves, and Dwarves a boost.

That's because us Sarlonians really know what's up :). Some of the best builds/characters I run with play their toon human.

[ddo1985]

The enhancements below stacks ? And the damage of sword and strenght stacks with them?

Paladin Divine Sacrifice
Paladin Divine Might
Human Damage Boost

[elujin]

human is one of the stronger race out there if you wanne boost one boost drow or elfs

[ddo1985]

right, but you know if the enhancements up stacks ?

[Emili]

The enhancements below stacks ? And the damage of sword and strenght stacks with them?

Paladin Divine Sacrifice
Paladin Divine Might
Human Damage Boost
Yes but HV is actually a detriment on a pally unless you may somehow fit HV iv plus quickdraw the damage increase from invoking is on the average less than or equal as if you had never used it (the attack down time stall and animation) ... been proven time and again in calculations, and is more noticeable in game play. The only time you should hit HV is while running up to a mob, most people who play DPS human builds will tell you HV is not the way to go. HV iv is +5 per swing (max would be all 20 seconds on a twf (110 swings per min 121 under haste) wielding 189 damage because you eat up near 1 second on activation. So any character who averages 200+ dps or more (which btw is all DPS builds) then forcing a loss.

Personally, such mechanism sways me to believe the devs do not play humans with HV or at least never thought about the function of it in such way as some type of "good" useful boost, outside the skills portion of it the other parts misleading.

(I still have some HV but seriously am for lack of something better to fit in there for the few ap I have in it - just is **** ap to get me to next spendable good ap)

[PopeJual]

I, for one, welcome our new human overlords.

[IronClan]

bow before the dragonmarked lord of random chest loot upgrading!

Ala-ka-zool, ala-ka-zoot I now upgrade your loot:
+1 ghost touch dagger of shatter *POOOFFFF*
+2 ghost touch dagger of lesser ooze bane <que appreciative oohs and ahhs>